Warmachine and Hordes Thread

Did you ever know that you're my hero?

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>>48877681
Oh thats nice.
Off to job now.

Jesus no thread since Tuesday, wich is all fine and good- screw mkiii

I actually like Mk.III. Then again, I like using jacks in my army.

Take out premeasuring.

Only allow free measuring of control range during Warcaster/lock activation.

Allow me to help:

Mk3 list building: http://conflictchamber.com

Warmachine/Hordes Books, No Quarter, & IKRPG
textuploader <dot> com / 5e4p5
PP Youtube (gameplay tutorials, tournament coverage, and announcements)
https://www.youtube.com/user/PrivateerPressPrime

Latest Errata:
http://files.privateerpress.com/op/errata/WMH-Errata-July-1016.pdf

Steamroller Rules
http://privateerpress.com/organized-play/steamroller-tournaments

The Giant List of Podcasts and Blogs
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?76379-Warmachine-Hordes-related-blogs-websites-and-forums

Table of contents for all NQ issues
http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?4313-Table-Of-Contents-For-All-No-Quarter-Issues

Lexicanum Iron Kingdoms Lore wiki:
http://warmachine.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page

MK3 RULES:
http://files.privateerpress.com/allnewwar/Prime.pdf
http://files.privateerpress.com/allnewwar/Primal.pdf
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5OHGgAx7q66NUdvUFp3LWVQRlE&usp=drive_web

Warmachine/Hordes Army Creator (WHAC) .apk
http://charbon-et-charentaise.org/blog/content/app-release.apk

And here's the imgur of eJuniors:
They're also already in WarRoom
http://imgur.com/gallery/DRZXN
>Gencon Casters

>>48877645
Yes warmachine / hordes doesn't _feel_ to be doing so well atm.
to be honest (desu) I'm really not feeling it anymore. The drive is gone, it just doesn't seem right.

Oh yes there are the balance issues (no no everything is fine!!) like when ravagores are just as good if not better than before...
But what better way to make legion less competitive than make shooting armies even better ?!
Yeah there are some changes I just cannot understand.
>Oh but of course, I'm not a games designer, I don't have the full picture
Well here's news for ya, I am a games designer, and some of these changes are seriously lacking.

Not to mention the unimaginable day1 mistakes that required immediate errata.

So yeah. I wanted to enjoy it. But I expected better...A lot better from PP.

I do wonder what is going on, and wonder if this new edition was born of consensus.

>>48878887
>take out the bits I don't like! boo hoo muh faction T_T

>>48877645
So, was Mk3 successful in killing /wmhg/?

>>48879639
No, that's PP.

Mk3 would've been mediocre and disappointing but it would've limped along. The real issue is how PP has handled public relations.

Horribly written insiders that left more uncomfortable question than answers
gang/flank was a blatant lie
Talked about how it's been in play test for multiple years yet admits to being rushed
Baffling decisions where previous rulling with identical text is ruled differently now. (targetting flare works with broadsides and assault now, when in mkii it didn't)

If PP just kept their mouth shut about mkiii or at least didn't hype that shit up so damn much and so poorly, the enthusiasm for the game would not be so damn low.

>God (S tier)
Cygnar, Khador

>Good (A tier)
Retribution, Circle

>Mid-High (B tier)
Mercs, Minions, Convergence

>Mid (C tier)
Menoth, Trolls, Legion

>Mid-Low (D tier)
Cryx

>Low (E tier)
Skorne

>>48879765
>using S-E Ranking
JRPGs should have stopped with that dumb shit years ago. Don't follow their trend. But to correct your ranking:

Top Tier
Khador, Retribution

High Tier
Cygnar, Circle, Mercs, Protectorate

Mid Tier
Minions, Legion, Trolls

Low Tier
Cryx

Shit Tier
Skorne

>>48879704
>>48879400
>>48879391
So, if we allow ourselves to admit that the base rules are useable/ok (they're "meh" in my opinion, but hey)
What would you change in each faction to make it actually playable, neither OP nor useless?

>>48879843
I don't think 4chan posts are allowed to be long enough for that, so I'll be brief:

>in General
Remove tough-ignoring from Sniper models; reduce all ranges >12" by 1-2"; remove the stupid fucking lance rule (and remove secondary cav wepons); give all battle engines some sort of token mechanism for boosting or a relevant support ability; move a few abilities/spells per faction back to "Friendly" from "Friendly Faction"; remove the farstrike animus and slightly increase the relevant ranges

>Cygnar
Restrict eCaines shot types to initials; completely rework Sloan + Haley1; give B13 some actual abilites (maybe toned down versions of what they had in Mk2)

>Khador
Remove Brutal Damage from the Rockets, give +2POW; completely rework Joe; reduce Behemoth AoEs to 3", slightly reduce his cost; give Bombardiers and Demo Corps some buffs; reduce Vlad1's feat to +2SPD (instead of double)

>Protectorate
Slightly adjust some point costs

>Cryx
Nerf Lich2 (just kidding); give the faction some anti-shooting tech; completely rework Mortenebra and Lich2; completely rework spell slave/necromancy

>Ret
Take away Deadeye from Ossyan (what kind of total moron thought that was a good idea?); reduce Discordia's spray to 8", give Elara1 some nice field marshal; hand out MAT7 to more of their heavies; adjust some points costs (generally upwards)

>Convergence
Haven't seen them in Mk3, so can't comment.

>Mercs
Don't have a full picture of their stuff, so can only partially comment: Make primed less broken; adjust some points costs

>Circle
Hellmouth only drags on hitting enemy models; somehow make twigmen less bonkers; adjust some points costs; rework geomancy

>Trolls
Haven't seen enough of in Mk3 to comment.

>Skorne
Trash the entire ruleset and design from scratch.

>Legion
Slight nerfs to abby2 and Lylyth3, point cost adjustments all around (generally downwards)

>Minions
Release more models


That should cover the most severe issues.

MKIII rules were fine aside form the lacking control of the RAW at the end that created (and continue to create) the problems we all know.

What really has been a mess is Faction balance and I am not just talking only about Skone and Cryx, but of the internal balance too.

Things that were strong in MKII has been buffed when things that need to be buffed where nerfed.

Circle and Khador are just two of the best example out there, the internal faction balance simply don't exist.

The only army that they have done right is Ret. They are competitive and the internal balance of the faction is really good. There is a place for everything if you see that something is being spammed is just a meta thing, like Discordia (in a gun line meta) or Sentinels (lack of niper or a lot of continous effect).

>>48879843
>turn spell slave back to how it was in mk2

>>48880063
In all honesty though, Spell Slave was fine in Mk2. I can see the reasons for changing it, but those are stupid fucking retarded reasons.

>>48880059
>The only army that they have done right is Ret.
Ret is not fine. But it is within the range of "can be fixed with a few errata". There is nothing wrong with their overall design.

>>48880051
Don't forget to change assault so that you have to actually make the charge to make the shot. Because seriously all it does right now is extend gun range by 3".

>>48880059
yep, i'd agree on the whole.

let's just look at menoth (my main)
cleansers aren't very good, unless you take the ua - which is a gimmick at best. Why isn't the unit worth it alone?

zealots: will never see the table again, the repop ability is worse than what revenant crew had.

rhoven & co have become shield guard bots.
No but srsly, they buffed shooting, so they only thing they could come up with was "give everybody shield guard!"

paladins of the wall are still useless alone, but become shield guard bots IF vilmon (but rhoven & co are cheaper) Why didn't paladins lose their stances and just get greater destiny?

daughters lost 1 point of def but gained stealth? bad move, they didn't need stealth.

errants are only useful IF the solo is taken, again, why can't a unit be useful alone, without a solo/ua ?

The problem is that this is the case across multiple factions and is a result of bad design. unit is bad? add solo.

Oh i forgot to mention deliverers ! IF they had high explosive [8] they wouldn't be so bad, but atm they are so shit even zealots will get more table time.

>>48880093
Hmm, i dunno about ret.
kaelyssa was ans still is an 18" bubble of "you ded nigga"
ossyan got boosted through the roof. What happened to "shooting can't win games, melee is the deciding factor" ?

MHSF are still bullshit for the one turn that matters. Really "ignore LOS" shouldn't be in this game. Not if they want a melee centric game.

I would have made one change to ret;
all their WJs get phoenix shield, those that don't have it currently would auto repair 1d3 every turn, those that do have it already continue to auto repair 1d6.

That alone would have made a helluva difference.
Then of course the antimaterial rifle team really needed a good buff.

>>48880093
>Ret is not fine. But it is within the range of "can be fixed with a few errata". There is nothing wrong with their overall design.

Ret is fine. Just look to tournament results :

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/

Best place Ret got in a lot of tournament is 3th. Legion had a lot more and higher placement all around.

A lot fo people complaint abour Ret is because they read the rules of the single model and think "That just OP." while they simply don't consider that usually other faction go over that level of OP in a "subtle way" thanks to a lot of sinergy of various model/unit that Ret lacks.


Ret still retain his "passive" spot. The army doesn't have caster/list that makes the meta, but they have alwasy to adapt to it.

The only hope is that if we do keep seeing the same lists, that PP will errata them to death.

funnily enough gunlines are so prominent right now the game is barely interesting.
Can you survive a khador WJ+gunline ? nope? well don't bother playing then.

>>48880182
But Legion on the other hand...
>they needed more buffs. For the good of the game ofc.

>>48880168
You see Ossy in reality is a big trap and every good Ret player know that.

Let me explain :

In MKII Ossy had 3 fatal flaw :

1 - He don't fixxed Ret accuracy (fixxed with Deadeye);

2 - He didn't see stealth. (Corbeu is not really an asnwer and if you bring Riflemen you lose A lot of firepower to threat opponent heavy);

3 - He want to be in the front line to feat and he is a 15/15. This got worse cause now FOC camping suck.


That bring to a situation where Ossy list are a lot predictable and countering him is really easy.

An example Khador with Iron Fleshed Kayazy make him mad.

List with a lot of Heavy make him really mad cause he just got 1 turn to eliminate them and have to push himself to FEAT and reach your heavy that usually are on the back line so you are something like 10" away form your opponent first line with a 15/15 caster.


Now I a, not telling that Ossy is a weak caster or anything like that, but that a good ret player know that Ossy as a caster is really unreliable so aside from some very focused build you will prefer to take something else.

If you made me choice between Issy and Ossy I will take Issyria every day of the week.

>>48880258
Killing heavies isn't difficult though. You're guaranteed the first strike because you're ranged, then each Invictus gets an average of 3.5 damage on a 19ARM heavy. Even if the heavy survives it'll be limping and won't be able to clear you out next turn.

>>48880258
>An example Khador with Iron Fleshed Kayazy make him mad.
Why ? why would def13 arm 14 infantry with stealth and immune to blast damage make him mad, when those riflemen & thane will just exterminate them, possibly in a single turn?

>>48880104
Nah, Assault is fine. It does what it's supposed to do. It's just a bit dumb on Invictors right now.

>>48880168
Yeah whoever thought their Mk3 shooting was a good idea either already got a lobotomy or really should.

>>48880182
Ossyan alone is meta-bending. It's just that Khador (another offender) bends the meta in a similar way so it's not that noticable (yet). And I also highly doubt that we've seen everything Ret can do. Which I am fine with. Their stuff is supposed to be expensive but good. It's just that a few outliers are too good.

>>48880194
Well hopefully not to death, but some nerfing should be done. Time will tell whether or not PP take this opportunity. I for one will wait till around Febuary. If the game is not fixed by then I'll just sell my shit and buy into Infinity. That just seems more fun right now.

>>48880258
Show me a non-tailored, non-Khador list that gives Ossy trouble.

>>48880373
>Show me a non-tailored, non-Khador list that gives Ossy trouble.

Irusk 2
Behemoth
Rager
Sylys Wyshnalyrr
Winter Guard Infantry (max)
Winter Guard Infantry UA
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Kayazy Assassins (max)
Kayazy Assassin Underboss
Kayazy Eliminators
Kayazy Eliminators
Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Jozef Grigorovich
Widowmaker Marksman

>>48880373
>I for one will wait till around Febuary. If the game is not fixed by then I'll just sell my shit and buy into Infinity. That just seems more fun right now.
I think I'm in a similar boat.
But beware Infinity, mang that shit is so fucking random.
Guildball looks good, as does Batman.
I wonder how relic knights is?

>>48880442
Dude. Just. Dude.

(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]

Find a weakness in this list OH WAIT YOU CAN'T.

>15/22 Cetrati with Sacred Ward, Steady, Tough, and PS13+3d6 attacks, going up to PS13+5d6 on feat turn

Heh, nice try at cracking my infantry... kid...

>>48880579
Oh wait I meant 15/24 Cetrati
>Heh

>>48880579
>15/22 Cetrati with Sacred Ward, Steady, Tough, and PS13+3d6 attacks, going up to PS13+5d6 on feat turn

Would be a shame if someone would TK your cetrati 2" away from krea showing their back arc.

In general you fear control element and everything that slow you down.

>>48880640
>Would be a shame if someone would TK your cetrati 2" away from krea showing their back arc.
They have spell ward.

>>48880579
Your list has 10 models that can actually do work. That's a bit slim. Your entire defense relies on stacking buffs on a single unit or beast, meaning that everything else is trivially removed.

>>48880640
You can't really slow Xerxis Cetrati down though since he can grant either pathfinder or +2"SPD when full advancing. And has Tactical Supremacy for Reposition 3.

>>48880651
I can't prevent my titans from being removed trivally anyway

>>48880651
>They have spell ward.
They have Sacred Ward now instead. It's a Mk3 buff that Vorkesh got.

>>48880651
>They have spell ward.

I know I was just joking he have Orin in too.

>>48880652
There are a lot of control element that can work the same. Temporal Barrier is one that comes to mind, that and FEATS.

Your list depend to much on the "blob" that just your main weakness, but your strong point too.

>>48880662
Correct. Have you played this list into a few hard gunlines (Kara/Haley1, Khador, Ossyan)?

>>48880677
Yeah, whatever it's called.

>>48880579
I'd ditch the Krea. If you're going to skew armor you don't really need to stack def as well, that and your beasts aren't really maximizing the agonizer and you have no shield guards. Throw, push, and slam effects like critical devastation will still ruin the one cetrati bricks day.

You can include reivers instead of the cannoneer and Tiberion insread of the bronzeback. That would probably be a hardier list than one with a bunch of arm 19 beasts, an out of place force barrier, and no shield guards for Xerxes.

Also I'd like to see how it handles split scenario. If you're gonna cast rift you're probably blowing your whole stack, too.

>>48880885
(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Tiberion [22]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Void Spirit [4]

So what you're saying is do this, right?

>>48880986
>>48880885
To add to this, I prefer a Cannoneer over Reivers since it's only really ranged units that I'm worried about since melee guys won't crack 24ARM Cetrati, and the Cannoneer can 1) guarantee to whittle their numbers down with little risk, and 2) mix it up in melee. I'd consider swapping the Bronzeback for a Gladiator though. Infact I will, a Gladiator at 14 is so much better than a Bronzeback at 18.

I don't see why slams, pushes, and throws would ruin Cetrati though. You have them stand in 2 triangles so that no one Cetrati moving will break Shield Guard for the rest of them. And they get Steady from Vorkesh so the knockdown isn't a worry.

>/tg/'s perfect Xerxis1 list
(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Tiberion [22]
- Agonizer [7]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]

>>48878887
That is the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted in one of these threads. And that's saying something.

>>48880640
stormpuppy_infantry is that you ?

>>48880051
Sorry, I forgot:

>Cygnar/Mercs
Give Precursors Sacred Ward and 1" melee range. Rework Constance.

>>48881175
For Cygnar:
>Tempest blazers
-lose electroleap (too many electric things in cygnar and gun mages aren't electrically themed)
-remove "brutal damage" and replace with "critical brutal damage" (there's no reason why gun mages on horses should get brutal damage automatically whilst foot gun mages don't - brutal damage is really powerful, so should be limited to solos and the b13th to make them seem special)
-Keep ward breaker.

>stormwall
-def 9 (khador def7, menoth def 8, cryx def 10, so by all logic cygnar is def 9; stop with the favoritism already we know you like haley!)
-lightning pods are limited to 3 per game, and is a special action to place.

>>48881294
What is your gripe with blazers? They're not even in the top3 of cygnar units, maybe even top5. And they barely hit according to their paygrade. They are also DEF14 now and die to everything that hits them. Their ONLY strong side is Reposition 5 and SPD9.

So in short, if you really think POW10+3D6 on a 4 point model is too much you are a moron.

>lightning pods are limited to 3 per game
They already are.
>and is a special action to place
HAHAHAHAHAHA. NO. And also fuck you.

>>48881345
aww diddums, did it hurt your widdle feelings?

>>48881398
>lol u mad
That is the best you've got?

>>48881345
I think Blazers would be fine if they just lost Electroleap. Changing Brutal to Crit Brutal would probably also be called for but they should be cheaper then.

>>48881434
>I think Blazers would be fine if they just lost Electroleap.
I can see that. I'd hope they gained something in return though. Some sort of utility shot.
>Changing Brutal to Crit Brutal would probably also be called for but they should be cheaper then.
Not really. Crit Brutal is in the realm of "why even bother". That is so much of a downgrade that you couldn't properly price them anymore (10 points, maybe??).

>>48881434
Why all the "nerf blazers" nonsense? They're not even especially competitive anymore. 18 points for five shots on a fragile platform is not breaking the game, even if those shots do work. They were already arguably worse than stormlances in Mk2, and blazers got nerfed while lances got better. If you think blazers are problematic, you're going to dislike the new Stormlances something fierce.

>>48881294
>Still complaining about blazers and stormwall.

Cygnar has newer toys to worry about. Centurions under Nemo 3 and Storm lances damn near anywhere are pretty great.

Don't sit there and call something overpowered because a faction has a strong, useful add. Aren't blazers without brutal or electro leap just bros with pistols on horses? Not a very interesting or compelling choice.

I sat there and had to listen to a PoM player complain that wold wardens are too overpowered because his opponent leveraged them well and he had no idea what they did in the first place. Circle has been known for a lot of things, I don't think it was ever wold wardens.

ITT we bitch that things are good and things changed with an edition change. Come on guys

>>48879053
Uhuh cool. Gonna save that stuff in case ill need to make another thread.
>>48879391
I did not play in MK2 a single time and from changes i see MK3 is better simply because the game will see more jacks and less infantry.
I like it.
On the other case, the less used models are used even less. Anybody ever seen Kossite Woodsmen? I head there were some promises of them going pretty good. And thats just one from the big list.
As a starting player that issue bothers me alot.
>>48879639
How do i know lol? Much people around starting it actually. Models quality is meh mostly thought and require a good old rework/revamp/remodel or whatever you call it. Then i could have played with my brother aswell, but he is buying Malifaux and Infinity because modelling is what interests him mostly.
Pity, actually, since he is not a dumbass and i would like to play against or with him.
And traditional question i am asking once in a month because i cant fucking decide (prepare your rotten tomatoes, folks).
Trolls - how do they feel themselves nowadays?
I didnt even see their leaked deck even thought other stuff is avaible.
Id like to run them mostly with beasts. MAYBE a squad or two of support units or powerful elite unit like Warders or Champions.
Is it possible with the Current state?
Because on the other side i can simply change to Circle and use almost whatever i fucking want and that will be effective. Squishy, maybe. But effective.

>>48880986
I think I'd swap the bronzeback for a sentry. Under Xerxis 1, Rasheth, or Naaresh's feat, a sentry with retaliatory strike animus up in a zone becomes a pretty serious problem for lists that dont have a way to trivially control the sentry/remove Orin.

>>48881049
Slams, pushes, placements etc are still an issue to the picket fence maneuver heavy infantry brick with dedicated lists. That's a good technique to mitigate it, but things like shadow fire can still be utilized to dismantle your formation if that's their game plan. You'd have to identify that at list drop, I think. Again lists that can fish for critical devastation can give you the business, as it throws all models hit. I'm not saying it will commonly shit on you, but if ashlynn, conquests with Vlads, or Cygnar is common where you play its something to consider.

Newish retribution player here, can someone explain to me why Kaylessa is considered so good?

>>48881434
>>48881476
It isn't that blazers are too stonk or not, it's just that, like the stormwall, they are way ahead of their counterparts.

>>48882279
>s i see MK3 is better simply because the game will see more jacks and less infantry.
That is shortsighted my friend.
However you have noticed that models that needed buffs didn't get them, and some other models that didn't need buffs got extra buffs anyway.

>>48882353
18" bubble of "fuck you ded nigga"
She's spd 6 range12" ignores LoS, has RoF 3 and steals focus or fury to make target weaker and be able to boost to hit and damage.

>Hellmouth
WTF were they smoking? They nerfed cryx into the ground for too easy recursion tricks, then what do they do, BAM.
Legion gets an auto repopping monster with impervious flesh.
That's 3 years of fucking playtesting ?

Don't tell me it's beatable, fucking gaspy2 was beatable, morv2 was beatable, heck even haley2 was beatable, but it doesn't mean it was alright !!

But don't worry you haven't seen the full rules yet !

>>48882401
Best thing about her now is she has Refuge, so she can do that every turn and not get assassinated.

>>48882401
But her gun is only pow 10

>>48882497
I think PP nerfed a lot of things so that they can release new model that do what the old model were doing.

In this way they can sell new things.

I like PP, but I really thing that this is the way things will be in a few years of release.

>>48882497
Worst thing is that it has the same name as a spell. After they fixed all of those ambiguities they introduced a new one. This triggers my autism.

>>48883256
Just for an added bonus the rules for the Hellmouth state the tentacles can move a hit model "to the hellmouth".

There is nothing called a "hellmouth" in the unit.

File: menth.png (3MB, 1106x1525px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1106x1525px

>TFW I recently dug my unpainted Menoth army out of storage.
>TFW I got really stoked for MK3 rules because it gave me a reason to get back into the game
>TFW everyone at my shop went back to 40k because their favorite models got nerfed. Or because premeasuring
>TFW can't even get my fix here because the general is always MIA
>TFW people saying dead edition
>TFW just wanna burn heretics

>>48883573
They recently ruled it only drags to the officer of the tentacles unit.

If people just weren't being faggots we wouldn't have this issue, because why would a unit act like no other unit in the game.

>>48882382
I do not really question that.
Power Up was needed a long time ago. But overall nerf of other stuff wasnt.

>>48882353
She isn't. Its a meme. Retribution basically goes:

Garryth < Ravyn < Thyron < Kaelyssa/Vyros1 < Vyros2 < Issyria/Elara < Rahn/Helynna < Ossyan

>>48879391
>I am a game designer
Proof_chicken.jpg

>>48880465
Infinity is the best of the games you listed.
Relic knights is trash.

>>48880465
>I wonder how relic knights is?
My understanding that there is little chance involved so the better skilled player/ better built list always wins

>>48882497
I feel like at the end of the day only Cryx lost it's recursion. Alexia, hellmouth thing, bog trog shamblers still have access to their tricks. Its just not very consistent

Also why the fuck does lich2 get jettisoned into the atmosphere, never to return, when haley2 gets a pat on the bottom and kruegar2 gets a powerful side grade? I feel like this wasn't tested for 3 years.

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2MB, 1338x865px

Is harbinger still somewhat competitive or is she casual game only tier now?

>>48884081
Makes sense, 40k is the land of fair and balanced models, sensible releases, and a ruleset that is rock solid without any room for misinterpretation.

>>48885937
Infiniti is the most shittty game in the line up - no balance at all and stupid rock paper scisors list in tournaments - basicly if you dont specialise you lost if you do and go aginst your counter - you lost

>>48886969
Can't tell if actual GW fanboy or dripping with sarcasm.
40k is about the Poe's Lawsiest fandom...

So, as someone who's used to wargaming but has never played Warmahordes before, is it alright to get into this game? I'm seeing a lot of shit going on with the MkIII change, which has me a little cautious (fucking figures).

>>48888158
I started with mark III about a month ago and I love it so far. If there's a local scene I'd recommend going on whatever night is warmachine night to ovbserve and talk to the local press ganger if there is one.

>>48877645
Interesting story here in the store in regards to that: MK3 comes out and rekindles interest in the game, so quite a few people (including me) that have mostly quit bring their armies to test things out. Overall the new edition is quite well recieved and there's actually quite some excitement and plans to start new armies/bolster old ones. And then we discovered that the three guys that had kept playing Warmahordes during the exodus mentioned above were still around and kept smugly telling everyone how "they always knew people would come back quickly", regardless whether they were asked or not. In fact, they invariably showed up for any game to comment harshly and offer unsolicited advice while people were playing, to the point were it became unbearable.
Enthusiasm quickly died and now there are three people at the FLGS playing the game. Again.
I am still playing around with the idea of getting some model to make a force of nothing but Manowars and 'jacks centered around Kozlov.
It's a shame, MK3 seemed like good fun even for a more casual crowd.

>>48884431
>why would a unit act like no other unit in the game.
Because it doesn't act like anything in the game. Name me another units where grunts move things toward a leader.

>>48889528
You're right, it's obviously special

>>48889283
It's a lot better for the casual crowd. The rules are easier and don't rely so much on "Gotcha" rules like getting terrain bonuses from toeing the line and partial pre-measuring, now allowing full pre-measuring and requiring being completely inside effects for them to take effect. It's nice and means that there's less confusion over what you need to get your bonuses.

The only real penalty is the endless bitching from people who liked that, but they're faggots anyways.

>>48882532
Boosted 10s will fuck up a lot of no-camp casters, and she removes a focus/fury every time she hits and adds it to her own stack.

>>48888158
It's just internet buttmad, the game is better than it was in MK2 and there are actual mechanisms in place to fix problems going forward.

Can you get a copy of Prime in pdf format? The full version with all the unit stats and lore.

>>48877645
Good to see someone finally started another. I made the last one but after it barely lasted a day and a half I didn't bother again. These threads might last longer if not for >>48890859 what this guy said. I for one am sick of the endless whining.

>>48878491
Same. I love fielding my jacks and not feeling like I shot myself in the foot by doing so.

>>48891138
Not unless someone has scanned theirs and uploaded them. The free PDFs are just rules.

>>48890859
T. Non cryx/skorne player

>>48891802
>Implipidydippidyplying

I play Cryx, I'm just not a whiny man-baby like you who can't look past that fact that his toys got nerfed.

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I need help.

Bought some minis from a guy a while ago and was stripping them. Soaked for a few days in LA Totally Awesome. Scrubbed. Soaked for a few more days. Scrubbed. Soaked for about a month. Scrubbed. And there's still fucking paint in the fucking crevices of every god damned model.

I don't know if it's the primer he used or the cleaner I'm using, but I'm getting really frustrated.

Is there any way to actually get this clean?

>>48891998
Honestly, that's good enough. A little paint in a few places isn't going to hurt anything.

>>48891998
Two ways:

>use a toothbrush when you scrub it
or
>use an ultrasonic cleaner

The best stripping method I've used was an ultrasonic cleaner and simple green.

>>48891998
If your trying to clean Metal minis, a pick set from Home Depot is good, but for Plastic/Resin...the ultrasonic work well as suggested above.

>>48888158
If you are new the backdraft won't cause you any worries.

Us oldbloods have a lot to complain because the changes we are experiencing are very arbitrary

>>48892750
I started WMH last year after end times killed the old world, I'm like the only person in my group that's ever experienced an edition shift (3 in the last 2 years!).

I thought it was rough, being a cryx player- apparently it blew the pants and undies off of everyone else. One guy in my group is adamant that the Reckoner is still the only use-able heavy in memeoth (hes wrong)

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>>48893734
I've been through at least 3 40k edition shifts and 2 fantasy shifts.
I've also managed to make it through Malifaux 2nd ed and warmachine mki- mkii - mkiii changes.

Mkiii is a really clunky ass change even for a guy that survived the 6th ed 40k and 8th ed fantasy.

Mki to Mkii change was more for the better and if things got worse at least there was some twisted logic to it.
Mkii to mkiii feels REALLY arbitrary at times and if you have any memory for mkii and it feels like PP is basically unlearning stuff.

For example,
In mki, Vlad 2 was insanely powerful and broke the game. This made PP vow not to allow for turn 1 attacks from deployment line. This was basically rectified for mkii.
First exploit we've seen in mkiii was Sloan turn 1 shots to the deployment line.

Second example,
In mkii, broadsides would not allow for spriggan to lay down a targeting flare since the spell specified normal attacks. Now, in mkiii somehow we can now put targeting flares instead of the normal shot. Nothing on the text of the abilities have changed between editions. They just randomly ruled this way now for some reason.

I'm too fucking old for this now it feels like.

>>48891900

If you want to brag about how well you're taking this anon, you're welcome to...

>so what's your pairing?

>>48894498
>tfw you play Skorne and pp has pretty much said they have no idea what the fuck they are doing with you in an AMA
Unlearning is too lax a term sometimes

>>48889283
Why wouldnt you just tell them to go away lol?
You actually did give up because of THREE guys?
Not like i am expecting an undying loyalty from you or whatsoever, but man, if you enjoyed that stuff and they were surely removing the joy from your playtime each time they appeared why wont you simply say "go to hell we are telepathically discussing stuff here and you are interfering with our brains and dont forget a fucking tin foil hat or we burn your brains to cinders. Or simply kick your asses."
>>48891998
That little amount of paint wont affect anything, but you can use a needle to clean that sorta stuff up. I would highly recommend not to use toothbrush, PP plastic or whatever material they are using is way too soft for crude and barbaric toothbrushing technique.

>>48894971
Skorne was never "learned" properly in the first place.

Since mki Skorne was the source for greatest series of design philosophy mistakes.
Mki was the design flaw of a "faction weakness" which they unfortunately repeated on Ret for a very long time.

Mkii had the design flaw of setting skews too strongly for them that was too rock paper scissory.

Now, mkiii, they've basically forgotten what internal balance and niche means.

Unlearning is best reserved for Cygnar I feel like.

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>>48885820
I keep hearing mixed opinions of Rahn's strength as a caster. Is that just a byproduct of some metas having more spell immunity than others?

As an aside, why do you put Elara that high when most players haven't even seen her in use yet?

>>48890756
Terrain bonuses are actually way less intuitive now.

And how was "my model is partially in the forest so it has concealment" any more of a gotcha than "your model is not 100% in the forest, so it doesn't get concealment"??

>>48895116
Rahn is SUPER skill based and SUPER counter based. He's toast against stealth and spell immunity, but he's never in a losing proposition against any other army no matter what they bring.

He's basically a A grade caster if you dig what he does and a C grade caster if you aren't suited for him.

>>48895136
toeing.

For both abstract gameplay and acutal 3d terrain set up, the new way is better. Old people just need to get used to it.

>>48895183
What if the enemy army doesn't have a lot of stealth, but the caster's got Occultation and a beatstick?

>>48895202
Then you pray that it's Strakhov since he's the only occultation caster who will end up close enough that you can still deliver melee.

The rest? Forgettabout it.

>>48895230
I meant a beatstick 'jack, beast, or unit.

>>48894598
Not him but its looking like
scaverous/denny3 w/ either venethrax or lich3 as 3rd list

>>48895248
I don't see how my response changes.

>>48895201
>For both abstract gameplay
No, one abstraction is not better than the other. The new system just leads to dumb shit where a model is partially within and partially behind forest/cloud/rubble yet gains nothing from it.

The old system had toeing in, the new one has toeing out. It did NOT get rid of toeing.

>and acutal 3d terrain set up
No again. Placing a model 100% on a hill and having it barely touch a hill are equally easy to achieve.

>>48895183
>He's toast against stealth
But he's got chainblast and Ret has a good selection of high POW AOEs.

>>48895292
Try toeing on a plateau without making a support structure underneath the model.

The new way is better. There's more things to complain about the game than this. Get used to it.

>>48895322
chainblast alone cannot kill entire units.

Also it's a tremendous waste of his kit.

>>48895201
I dont know about that. For example as it stands now Terminus can never benefit from concealment in a 3" cloud because his base is bigger than the template

>>48895345
>Try toeing on a plateau without making a support structure underneath the model.
Just push the model against the plateau. It is now touching it, which is all that was required in Mk2.

>There's more things to complain about the game than this. Get used to it.
We can agree on that.

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>>48895376
seems sensible.

>>48895376
50mm < 3"

But with how clouds are placed you are usually right. For centered clouds no other model will ever be able to get the concealment bonus. Not even if they are completely covered by 100 clouds.

>>48895345
Just puting the modle base to base with the terrain structure and say its toeing AKA the thing you have to do anyway, because 3D terrain likes to really give it to any awkward modle (DJ, seether, behemuth's old sculpt, Brine, any skorne beast, Mulg, Terminus the list goes on), is way easier.

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>>48885820
>Helynna rated 2nd all over the place
Does Helynna care whether you're spamming heavies or going for a more combined arms approach? Looking at these sparse tournament results, I'm wondering if four Shyeel heavies is enough for her collection.

The only problem with the new terrain mechanic and the one amendment I'd like to see is that toeing in clouds or forests grants concealment if line of sight can only be drawn through them. PP recited the absence of such a rule being down to keeping things simple, but I think that's pants-on-head retarded as the amendment would keep things simple through sheer intuitiveness.

>>48895082
I can't speak for that guy, but having a group of asshole tryhards will inevitably be a determining factor of the attitude towards a game in any FLGS, especially when there is only a relatively small pool of players to draw from.

Whats a good kharchev list? My gut says lots of jacks, but is there anything else that stands out?

>>48896595
Widowmakers seem like a good idea too.

>>48886665
Like, going from ARM24 to ARM14 is a pretty huge hit.

What does Cassius' Fury Bound do?It's not available on battlecollege

>>48898053
Just means he can boost and stuff like that.

>>48898053
>battle college

Are they up to date for mk3?

>>48897089
>Like,

Oh for fucks sake

>>48896595
Kayazy eliminators as well. Anything that can handily trigger warpath and be a genergy nuisance, or is fast enough for quick scenario grabs

>>48898260
>Are they up to date for mk3?

Partially,things like retribution are complete i think,while there's chunks missing in general
I would have imagined they'd be done in 2 weeks tops

I repeat my question.

>And traditional question i am asking once in a month because i cant fucking decide (prepare your rotten tomatoes, folks).
>Trolls - how do they feel themselves nowadays? I didnt even see their leaked deck even thought other stuff is avaible.
>Id like to run them mostly with beasts. MAYBE a squad or two of support units or powerful elite unit like Warders or Champions.
Is it possible with the Current state?
>Because on the other side i can simply change to Circle and use almost whatever i fucking want and that will be effective. Squishy, maybe. But effective.

>>48898260
>Oh for fucks sake

I'll talk however the fuck I want.

>>48898814
Can you repeat that question, but this time make it coherent?

>>48898814
Just play circle. Trolls are fucking disastrous but better designed than Skorne as the only consolation.

>>48900736
You know Trolls have a lot of good options, right?

I mean, they have Madrak2 for gods sake.

>>48880051
I'm surprised you didn't suggest removing Spirit Bond and making Focus give you +1ARM for every one you camp.

>>48900763
Spirit Bond hardly does anything, removing it wouldn't change much. The new focus damage reduction is a good rule.

In general, I like what Mk3 did, especially to the base rules. Some changes to model rules are just really really dumb.

>>48900800
Then why are 3/4s of your changes "Make it Mk2 again"?

>>48900842
They are not. That is just your bias.

>>48900866
Let's see

>Removing Tough from Sniper
Brings back the issues Tough had in Mk2

>Make spells Friendly instead of FF
Mk2

>Suggesting B13 get their Mk2 stuff
Mk2

>Behemoth AoE to 3"
Mk2

>Give Cryx anti-shooting tech
Mk2

>Rework spellslave
To the Mk2 version, right?

>Remove Ossyan's Mk3 spell
Mk2

All of these changes are basically just you wanting the game to just be Mk2 instead of Mk3.

>>48882532

>only a POW 10
>can strip upkeeps and animi, strip focus, and make warjacks stationary

You're focusing on the wrong things. Also remember that because overboosting changed, POW 10s threaten a lot more casters. If a caster is ARM 14 or 15(which the majority of them are), then that's all they are.

>>48900965
>Removing Tough from Sniper
>Brings back the issues Tough had in Mk2
No tough when knocked down already fixes tough.

>Make spells Friendly instead of FF
>Mk2
You conveniently missed the keyword SOME.

>>Suggesting B13 get their Mk2 stuff
>Mk2
You conveniently missed the part where I wanted those abilities toned down.

>>Behemoth AoE to 3"
>Mk2
It would still have Powerful Attack. That is not Mk2.

>>Give Cryx anti-shooting tech
>Mk2
What the fuck?

>>Rework spellslave
>To the Mk2 version, right?
If I meant that I would have fucking wrote that. I mean rework as in "think of a way to make this ability work". Cause it's total trash right now.

>>Remove Ossyan's Mk3 spell
>Mk2
Yes. Deadeye on Ossyan was a mistake. The other buffs he got are good enough. He'd still be an above average caster without Deadeye.

>>48882497

Don't look at Sentry Stones if you're that mad about the Hellmouth.

>>48901066
>No tough when knocked down already fixes tough.

And all those steady or can still tough when knocked down models?

>You conveniently missed the keyword SOME.
No I didn't, it just doesn't matter.

>You conveniently missed the part where I wanted those abilities toned down.
No I didn't, it just doesn't matter

>It would still have Powerful Attack. That is not Mk2.

You know AOE3 is fucking worthless as anti infantry tech, right? Just like in Mk2

>What the fuck?
Like all that stealth and easy immunity to blast damage they had in Mk2. You retarded or something?

>If I meant that I would have fucking wrote that. I mean rework as in "think of a way to make this ability work". Cause it's total trash right now.
It wasn't trash in Mk2, I bet you want it to work that way.

>Yes. Deadeye on Ossyan was a mistake. The other buffs he got are good enough. He'd still be an above average caster without Deadeye.
He's be about the same as he was in Mk2

>force barrier
>incorporeal
>occultation and stealth
>necrosurgery/ recursion
Cryx sure has no anti shooting tech.
And god forbid you bring Calvary or shooting of your own to engage the enemy guns

>>48898814
>How do they feel themselves nowadays?
They probably feel fine, in practice you need Mulg and their infantry kind of suck but they are okay, nothing drastic really changed except for tough changes.

>>48901143
>No tough when knocked down already fixes tough.
>And all those steady or can still tough when knocked down models?
There are very few of those and them being extra tough is both fine and intended.

>You conveniently missed the keyword SOME.
>No I didn't, it just doesn't matter.
>You conveniently missed the part where I wanted those abilities toned down.
>No I didn't, it just doesn't matter
What the fuck is wrong with your brain?

>>It would still have Powerful Attack. That is not Mk2.
>You know AOE3 is fucking worthless as anti infantry tech, right? Just like in Mk2
It's not fucking worthless, it's just worse than 4".

>What the fuck?
>Like all that stealth and easy immunity to blast damage they had in Mk2. You retarded or something?
They still have those, except for on Banes. I'm talking about stuff like Decel/Deflection or even ways to prevent shooting entirely (before you cry OP, spells like that already exist).

>If I meant that I would have fucking wrote that. I mean rework as in "think of a way to make this ability work". Cause it's total trash right now.
>It wasn't trash in Mk2, I bet you want it to work that way.
Then that confirms you're a fucking moron, because it's the opposite of what I said. The intent of Mk3 spell slave is not to cycle upkeeps with it and that is fine by me. It's just that a lot of other spells (some of which they are explicitly intended to cast; just look at Derylys or however that fucker is spelled) got axed alongside them.

>Yes. Deadeye on Ossyan was a mistake. The other buffs he got are good enough. He'd still be an above average caster without Deadeye.
>He's be about the same as he was in Mk2
Okay. See a doctor. Your stupidity might be terminal. Everything Ossyan liked got better and his Spell becoming a Field Marshal is a great buff.

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Do I drop the repenter for Taryn and some wracks?

>>48901279
Trolls changed a lot, mainly for the worse. They are incredibly boring and flat now. They ahve some good options, but the faction's internal balance is shit. All the interesting synergies and combos got destroyed. There are actual auto includes or near auto includes which NEVER happened before and more trash, useless pieces.

I used to love trolls for their diversity and flexibility and interesting combos. Not really sure how I feel about them now. Just really, really plain. The changes just don't make any sense to me. Would love to here devs talk about their design philosophy for Trolls and most factions. Like Skorne, PP seems to never know what the fuck they're doing with out faction.

>>48901468
>There are actual auto includes or near auto includes which NEVER happened before
Stones?

Axer for Rush?

Either a Pyre, Slag, or Mauler for the buffs?

>>48884081
In my imagination good ol Kreoss looks like Flanders. Still all the "shit" models liks Cleansers and deliverers are quite good. Last time i laughed my ass of when afger i poped Kreoss feat and couldn,t knock dowm Striker i used my deliverers to shot his btb ol Rowdy to give him a straigth pow 14 Blast, rolled 10 damage :-)

>>48901066
>No tough when knocked down already fixes tough.

I agree, this was an excellent change to the game; they just had to remove steady, maybe switch girded around a bit, and hey presto:
Tough is good, can be made better, but can't be relied upon.

I'd want the mk2 spell slave back actually.
If Mk3 had done everything right, then there might be a point saying "you just want mk2 back"
Buuuuuuuuut, because this new edition is a massive clusterfuck, then yeah, I don't mind saying I want at least some of Mk2 back, because, guess what: Mk2 worked.

Remember charging KD models. remember gang and flank in Mk3 ? Those got changed back to Mk2.
Unless there's a miracle change to spell slave to make it actually useful; change it back to Mk2 version.

The other gripe I have with the new edition is Harbinger's feat. It's the only feat in the entire game that doesn't work in CTRL. That sucks balls.
Forever ALL feats have worked in CTRL. But because of the botched rush job of new edition, suddenly one caster has feat in CTRL.
WTF PP ?
Giving her a shit weak ass feat in CTRL would have been way better than this. Not because it's more powerful, but because that's how feats are supposed to work !

>>48900751
The fact that madrak 2 is being touted all the time just means that internal balance is shit and madrak 2 is glaringly OP.

Balance means more than just win rate

>>48901070
sentry stones are stealth'd with impervious flesh and ARM 18.

>>48901143
>You know AOE3 is fucking worthless as anti infantry tech, right? Just like in Mk2

You don't seem to realise that increasing some AoE sizes is a rush job band aid specifically because, for some "unknown reason" AoE 3 doesn't cut it anymore.
I know why AoE3 doesn't suffice anymore, do you ?

>>48901644
Stone was only auto include for tanking lists.

Axer was for beasts only if you wanted them to melee.

That's three options you've described for armor cracking. Now it's mauler or bust. Also none of them now buff my infantry power

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In the interest of actually getting good at this game, I'd like to try sticking with Rahn for a while.

My only real concern with this list is Elara. I don't really know what to do with her other than having her hide behind obstructions feeding focus to the Sphinx.

>>48901970
You know, minus all the other good casters in the faction that are doing well.

>>48902039
Every Troll list was a tanking list. And it gave a STR buff, so it was absolutely for fighting lists as well.

You don't actually know much about Mk2 Trolls, do you?

>>48902066
Take your unwarranted smugness elsewhere.

You are also an idiot if you thought any grim list was a tanking list.
+1 str is not sufficient enough to call it an actual damage buff. That's like thinking that fortune is a legit hit buff. Unless the stone combined with damage buff animus, the difference is negligible.

With a straight face tell me that Jarl and P madrak are good or even remotely interesting.

>>48902174
>That's like thinking that fortune is a legit hit buff.
so if fortune isn't a to hit buff then it must be literally nothing. Why would you ever cast it?

>>48902435
Because it's all you got. There's no caster in the game with both fortune and an accuracy buff spell.

>>48901644
let's not forget the impaler + bomber combo !

>>48902529
Taking it for half is not auto include.

>>48902174
>>48902435
I mean, we could split hairs and go into the details of how Fortune is a buffer against medicore rolls rather than a literal bonus to accuracy, but in both situations the odds of actually rolling a success are being raised with the acutal change being dependent on the target's DEF.

I'd say a Mountain King, with its pile of separate attacks, is going to appreciate the former over the latter in several common situations.

>>48880051
As a legion player, I agree that a point reduction on the models would be nice. But then again my only experience in mark 3 so far has been 4 games with Khador. Shit sucks. Though it might be better once i get hellmouths.

>>48902573
Only if he's requiring 7s to hit. Fortune's problem is that it's a win moar kind of spell. It's not going to actually tilt the odds to your favor if you are down.

>>48902715
>actually tilt the odds
I take it this is why Storm Rager costs 3 now.

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>>48902826
Wakarimasen

>>48900570
In short: can i run a beast-heavy troll army? Because i love beast-heavy armies.
>>48900736
That sucks. I would like to smash faces with big meaty fists if you get what i mean.
>>48900751
And alot of bad options it seems.

>>48902715
Fortune provides roughly a +2 to hit buff in most situations, but more importantly it increases the odds of rolling right in the average area. Single rolls have a huge variance up or down, Fortune removes some of that variance in the downward trend.

It's less of a win more spell and more of a better predicting outcomes sort of spell.

Like, statistically, the difference between needing 7s with +2 or 7s with a reroll is almost nothing, in, say, 10 rolls, the variance on your dice can be statistically significant, trending way down(or way up, but for our purposes that doesn't matter).

Fortune mitigates those extreme trends.

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>>48903094
Poor Thyron-kun.

>>48903113
Every faction save Convergence has lots of bad options.

Ideally, those bad options should get ironed out as they release errata.

Question is, of course, is Jason "I like the Rhinodon" Soles and the other devs going to make the changes they promise or are they going to be stuck in "Skorne are difficult to design for" mode?

>>48903120
shhh no logic.
Only tears now.

>>48903151

>yet another "fix the rhinodon" post

Give it MAT 5 back.
PS 17 2-inch tail.

I'm not saying it'd be good, but that would actually BE Sole's "bargain basement heavy, for when you just want A/ANY heavy".

>basically the only thing it could do is tail-thump dents into a Juggernaught
>this is the thing that nothing much else in skorne but heavy warbeasts can do

>>48903151
I do not really see truly bad options for Menoth or Legion either.
Or those are really few.
Like i dont know, Nephilims for Legion and Exemplars for Menoth.

>>48903417
The rhinodon had an animus that at least gave boosted hits to that tail thump, w/o that it's still practically worthless. The thing is supposed to be an anti-infantry heavy. MkI was able to double tail thump, MKII was there to trample and kill off those trying to get a backstrike. MkIII is obviously just trash. I'm not even sure it's cheap enough to use as a throwaway heavy to bait your opponent.

My bet is PP screwed it intentionally so there's no demand for the model, as IIRC it's still all metal which they've moved away from. There will probably be no reason for it to see the light of day unless PP design a multi-kit making it financially viable to create new molds.

>>48903120
Actually the math for fortune is roughly +1 to hit with rapidly diminishing returns greater the number needed becomes.


Fortune is the worst accuracy buff.

>>48904144
Everything you posted are fine.

You should talk about zealots or neraph instead if you want to talk shit.

>>48904996
No, it's a +2 at 7s, and like +1.5 at 8s. It becomes worse at 9 or more.

>>48904996
>Fortune is the worst accuracy buff.
its the best if you need 3s

>>48886665

Why is she blonde here? Harbinger has black hair.

>>48904364
If they were trying to make metals bad then you need to explain ferox, nihilators, or bloodrunners

Or even immortals