/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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>>48763436
> WoD
> sci-fi
They just aren't suited for one another.

>>48763476

Event Horizon comes awfully close.

Comedy option: Draula 3000 is the ultimate WoD in space chronicle.

>>48756540
What about SEs? Or are they tough enough by default that they don't need any further boosts?

Anyone know where i can get Mirrors?

>>48763436
>Have you ever run a sci-fi-esque game?
Never in WoD, it just seems wrong

>>48763755
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wod+mirrors+pdf

>>48763476
>>48763778
Why wouldn't it? Sci-fi and horror go hand in hand, and a lot of WoD already touches on science fiction concepts.

>>48763436
Yes, along with Eclipse Phase and Numenera.

It was great because all the cis scum were DEAD, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD LIKE IT SHOULD BE LIKE YOU'RE ALL GONNA BE SOON

>>48763823
WoD is thematically antithetical to SF. You'd think it obvious.

>>48763854
> /pol/ specimen having a sperg fit
Take your pills and retreat back to your containment board.

>>48763868
I don't see how, especially considering they released an explicitly scifi game (Demon) and they're doing it again (Deviant). Scifi repeatedly shows up in the inspiration section.

>>48764076
> Demon
> explicitly scifi
One word: simulacrum.

>>48764307
You'll have to be more clear.

Although on that note, there's also Promethean to counter the "WoD is thematically antithetical to SF" statement.

>>48763755
local supermarket should carry them on the cheap.

>>48764332
> You'll have to be more clear.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=simulacrum
> there's also Promethean to counter the "WoD is thematically antithetical to SF" statement
Are you trolling or are you really clueless? Regardless, I giggled.

>>48764379
Frankenstein is sort of important to Science Fiction as a genre, dawg.

>>48764409
That Promethean takes inspiration from Frankenstein doesn't make it the thing itself, mate. You'd think. That, and there's some centuries-long gap between the works, with an awful lot of context to fill the gap.

>>48764453
I dunno, I feel like you're trying pretty hard to be contrary here.

But more power to you.

>>48764379
I know what simulacrum means. But you'll have to elaborate on how it's related to your argument. Also, have you read Promethean, or...? Because it's very Scifi.

>>48764453
So? You're arbitrarily going "it's not scifi, it's antithetical to scifi" when the game literally has robots. It lists Heinlein, Asimov, Lovecraft, Terminator 2, Weird Science, Memento, District 9, Bladerunner, and The Incredible Hulk in the Inspirational Media page. And just because Frankenstein is old doesn't mean it's any less science fiction.

You're going to have to actually give me a *reason* for why WoD is ill suited to SciFi, because it certainly seems like the people involved in the creation of the game disagree with you. You need to have an actual argument for people to take you seriously.

>>48764503
All right, let me spell it out for you: SF is (supposed to be) materialistic, while WoD is about the most idealistic /tg/ franchise out there. Having blasters and spaceships doesn't make it SF, nor being placed in the Stone Age make it not-SF.

Has anybody said the Cheiron Group will be a big player in Deviant? I feel like this is/should be a big theory.

>>48764569
But that's wrong... In several ways.

I don't see how Scifi is "materialistic"
I'm not sure how WoD is the most idealistic /tg/ franchise out there (what about... Exalted? D&D? Literally anything?)
I don't see how idealism is antithetical to Scifi anyway, since so much of it is idealistic.

>>48764611
They'll probably do a sort of 'If you have Hunter: The Vigil, you might want to use groups presented there, like Task Force Valkyrie or Cheiron Group in your chronicles.'

and that is all.

>>48764569
If you read "Mirrors", it describes itself as a Space Opera, which very loosely paraphrased means a character driven drama set on a scifi back drop.

It's a real genre, and happily bridges your two stagnant definitions.

>>48764618
> I don't see how Scifi is "materialistic"
That's a problem on your end.
> I don't see how idealism is antithetical to Scifi anyway, since so much of it is idealistic.
Ah, so you're just a Yank who doesn't even know the proper definitions of "idealism" and "materialism". I have no desire nor energy to educate you, so go do it yourself.
>>48764867
Space opera is likewise antithetical to actual SF. Your ignorance gives you confidence, but it does not make you right on its own strength.

I WANT FORGE MASTERS AND I WANT THEM NOW!

I feel so stupid when we played Mage 2e assuminh spells had base potency of 0. So we always had our spells potency at Arcanum-1 instead of 1+(Arcanum-1)

>>48764908
You're getting pretty pompous for someone arguing semantics. That was my first comment, and you still couldn't resist an insult, could you?

There was a neat little Neil Gaiman story about a bunch of genetically engineered people on a space ship who had pale skin, long life and could subsist only on blood in order to live extended periods in the vacuum of space. That's a pretty neat twist sci-fi twist on vampires.

>>48764984
First you accuse me of using stagnant definitions and then you claim I insult you. Have you no decency?

>>48764867
It's more like "space fantasy", to be fair. Though there's also Cyberpunk Mirrors, and also Cyberpunk in Demon.

>>48764908
You're trolling at this point. Make an argument or don't. No one cares.
But for everyone else? WoD is perfectly compatible with Science Fiction.

>>48764984
I'm pretty sure he'd also argue that something like Star Trek isn't scifi.

>>48765021
You did insult him. You called him ignorant. Are you really this incompetent? Not even ten posts into a new thread and an argument started. Are you the same person from the last thread? You seem like you are.

>>48765036
> No one cares.
An idiot's last line of defence. You insult yourself.

>>48765021
>Genres can either be A or B
Hey here's three or four examples of how that's not really the case
>Those don't count
You're making very static claims, and when provided examples of how your definitions might be a bit too rigid, you just say "nope" and then start calling us idiots.

Your definitions are stagnant, nigger. There's your insult.

Why isn't there a Spirit of the Earth in CoD?

>>48765070
You are a petulant little shit, aren't you?
You don't have an argument, either, do you?

WoD shares a lot of themes with science fiction, because science fiction shares a lot of themes with horror. I mean, I don't even know how to approach countering the argument "they're not compatible" because I have no idea why you'd say they aren't, and you're doggedly refusing to actually engage in a discussion about the topic you started. The most recent games are entirely based on Science Fiction concepts.

>>48765146
Who says there isn't?

>>48765146

Gaia presumably exists and is Incarnae-tier like Helios and Luna, she's just--like the other ultrapowerful spirits--chilling out (probably in the center of the earth) and being incredibly powerful without any real reason to act on the world.

>>48765179
Are there terran spirits from her court running around? Seems odd that you're more likely to run into a Solar or a Lune.

>>48765146

There is. There are very few references to Gaia's existence, such as a throw away line in Imperial Mysteries about how no mage, even an Archmaster has survived an encounter with Gaia. She'd be above Helios and Luna in power and presumably not as nice as oWoD Gaia.

>>48765101
> Genres can either be A or B
When genres are influenced by philosophical paradigma and when A and B are each other's direct opposites, yes, they can only be A or B. Your militant idiocy gives you no points.
>>48765160
> You don't have an argument
I already stated my argument. If you're too stupid to comprehend it, that's your problem and not mine.
> WoD shares a lot of themes with science fiction
"Robots running around" isn't a theme, you vapid cunt. Your incapacity of seeing beyond the form shows you for a fucking idiot who must be put down for his own good.

>>48765350

Sure, probably.

>>48765350

Helios and Luna have interests on Earth. Gaia just don't give a fuck. She doesn't show up because she's a rank 9 spirit whereas Luna and Helios are only rank 8. Its the same reason you don't see the metaphysical embodiment of death running around either.

>>48765506
There are a *LOT* of philosophical paradigma that make up the science fiction genre. The genre is literally just "fiction that focuses on science".
Robots running around isn't a theme, it's a genre convention, and "what makes a person a person" IS a science fiction theme. Frankenstein is a science fiction novel. A.I is a science fiction retelling of Pinocchio. Blade Runner is a science fiction movie. These all share themes with Promethean.

You have done nothing in this argument (or the last one) except BEG THE QUESTION and assume your own intellectual superiority. And, yes, this time I do mean it in the formal logic sense that you are assuming that your position is correct because it's correct, as well as the vernacular usage in that you are literally dodging the fucking question and refusing to give a straight answer.

What themes of science fiction do you feel are incompatible with World of Darkness. What themes of World of Darkness do you feel are incompatible with science fiction.

You've done a lot of saying "I'm right and you're an idiot" (which, if you want to go on fallacies, that's everyone's favourite), but you're really just trying to hide the fact that you said something stupid and can't back it up.

>>48763436

One of the books proposes a distant Sothic Turn when mankind has died and a handful of mummies arise from the red dust on Mars. That could be an awesome one-shot or Sybaris vision, if nothing else.

>>48763854

why you gotta make Eclipse Phase look bad, anon

it's bad enough that the writers are anarchists

>>48765922
Just fuck off, you literal autist.

>>48766009
Anarchists? My understanding was that EP is extremely left wing?

>>48763476
well OP pic is basically angel_emigres_to_do_its_work.jpg

>>48766075
You do understand that only Yanks think that anarchists can even be rightists, right?

>>48766075

To the point of "capitalism is mustache-twirlingly evil, religion is exclusively a thing of regressive bigots, intellectual property is theft, the ideal society is anarcho-collectivism without any authority or laws."

For a game about utter freedom of body and identity, queer stuff never comes up, and a hilarious amount of space goes to portraying the absolute evils of any system that uses a monetary system beyond reputation. I still love EP, but gpddamn do the writers irk me sometimes.

>>48766143
In transhumanism queerstuff is bottom barrel stuff compared to your conciousness freed from fleshly inhibitions

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>>48766143
> queer stuff never comes up
It's never more than a passing mention, but it's there nonetheless.

>>48766031
After you. I legitimately wanted to hear why you thought that way, but you're too interested in jerking off

>>48766120
I've never heard of anyone who thought anarchism was right wing.

>>48766143
I thought there was some queer stuff. Dysphoria is a mechanic, even.

>>48766009
>One of the books proposes a distant Sothic Turn when mankind has died and a handful of mummies arise from the red dust on Mars. That could be an awesome one-shot or Sybaris vision, if nothing else.
With a game with Mummy's premise, it's amazing that there hasn't been anything for the NEXT Sothic Turn, when everything is spacey

>>48766221

You'd think a setting whose core hook is "your identity is wholly different from the body it's in" would at least have some they pronouns.

>tfw diehard lefty but hate anarchists

Hey, is there any reason Mortal Remains isn't in the pastebin or mega.nz?

>>48766261
> diehard lefty but hate anarchists
Are you at least a socialist? I die a little inside every time some barely-even-centrist neolib whines about actual leftists, even if they're stupid anarchists.

>>48766284

Go buy it, it's good!

Original meaning of Anarchy is only non acceptance of authority not non acceptance of order and structure.

>>48766304
And?

>>48766233

I'd expect Space Mummy when they do a Shard book, either after Dark Eras 2 or in a 2e Mummy Storyteller's Guide.

>>48766291

Of course! The Scandinavian model seems pretty ideal, but I think it would fall apart on the scale of the USA. Canada seems decent enough at things as well, all things considered.

>>48766304
>not being an anarcho-monarchist

Is there any rpg that goes to antiethical to your political views that it becomes unplayable? I know lots of right wingers still enjoy Wod/CofD

>>48766261
I think most people hate anarchists actually.

Which is why they just aren't popular.

>>48766362

I mean, I think we can all have fun playing morally bankrupt capitalists or religious zealots; the latter is my preferred fantasy archetype just because of how goofy it is.

But you wouldn't catch me dead playing anything crunchier than CofD or Red Markets.

I thought Anarchism is just a society where individual rights is paramount over collective will? Naturally democracy is unethical to this kind of society

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>>48766347
> Of course!
> The Scandinavian model seems pretty ideal
I always forget that to non-socialists socialism means "capitalism with somewhat higher taxes".

>>48766362
You would think so with the way people react to some games. But in the end, I'm having trouble thinking of any game that would make people ragequit from the base rules.

Unless you are so conservative you quit CofD or DnD because you think it is 'satanic' or something. But that isn't really about political views at that point.

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>>48763476
>>48763436
I run sci-fi games with CoD all the time. It's great for horror sci-fi, the fringey, x-files style of thing. Those are probably my favorite campaigns in this system ,desu.

>>48766422

You're gonna have a real tough time making real socialism happen without bloody revolution (or founding your own nation-state with only volunteers) in a world that still flinches when anyone associates socialism/communism with the Soviets, which isn't fair but it's where we're at. The best road to socialism is a gradual creep of socialist policies in an established, capitalist nation.

Though now you have me wanting to do an international Brigades historical setting.

>>48766422

Socialism pretty much has no hope in a political climate that's quickly becoming a capitalist left and an anti-capitalist right.

>>48763868
What? That makes no sense. WoD works great with science fiction, as long as you don't go too high on the fantasy. Even then, it might work fine if you make a couple of adjustments.

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Obligatory

>>48766507
See, you're a typical neolib. You're barely even a centrist, so why the fuck do you call yourself a diehard lefty? Fuck off.
>>48766516
Two hundred years ago openly speaking in favour of trade unions was a criminal offence in "civilised" countries, what of it? Belief in the end of history is self-disproving.

>>48766507
All right, I read your post to its end and retract my words: you're centre-left. Still fuck you for calling yourself a diehard lefty.

>>48766710
>the social left doesn't exist

I freely admit that I'm not enough of an economist to take a hardcore stance on it beyond left of the American center (because it's all I know), but progressivism is just as much a cause as dismantling the capitalist machine.

but how about vampires, guys

>>48766805
If you admit that you're not lefter than the Yank centre (which firmly in the right, by the way), then why the fuck do you call yourself a diehard lefty? Rightists pretending to be left is a pet peeve of mine, so you should understand where I'm coming from.
> how about vampires
The most boring line after furries and mummzzzz.

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Qt promie

>>48766909

I don't really get why you're calling a social progressive who likes socialism but think it's unfeasible in today's political climate a rightist but okay, anon.

And you can talk shit on Mummy for days, but there's no disputing that VtR is a damn solid game. It sets out to be one fairly straightforward thing and nails it.

>>48766685
Ehh, honestly, gradualism can be annoying in the modern day political climate but it doesn't necessarily make someone less-left.

That's just the method anyway, if the goals are extremely leftist, then they're still left-wing, not center.

>>48767001
> I don't really get
I've spoke with enough people like you to know to not take your words on face value.
> VtR is a damn solid game
I liked Blood and Smoke the most of any other corebook, but it was fucking boring nevertheless.
>>48767008
Except that gradualism is more often than not an excuse to not even attempt to change the status quo.

>>48767097
>>48767008
>>48767001
This is boring, stop.

>>48767097

I wish you the best of luck with your glorious overthrow of the system and with writing the world's most gripping roleplaying game core rulebook.

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>>48767129

>>48766685

It'll probably be a criminal offense again by the end of the century. It's going to be a real rough time for leftists and libs, and a lot of people will end up dead after whatever far-right political experiment tech moguls cook up collapses.

This thread is awful, I'm going back to the 90's.

>>48767323
Is that code for playing in a cWoD campaign?

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qt demon

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Alchemists are literally Heroes.

>>48767360
Seems more like Deviant.

>>48767483
In that they get their powers from killing Prometheans and Matt doesn't want to focus on them as player character types because they'd be out of theme for the gameline? That's really the only similarities.

>>48767323

Take me with you, I'll pitch Changeling the Lost to 90s White Wolf and see what happens.

>>48767499
> That's really the only similarities.
Those are the defining qualities of both, so…
> Matt doesn't want to focus on them as player character types because they'd be out of theme for the gameline
They are still a botched attempt at justifying why these seemingly perfectly playable characters shouldn't really be played.

Can anyone tell me what exactly is a deviant?

>>48767499
They're both painted as universally wrong and bad and evil except for a single sidebar. People get upset because they can't imagine having to be creative a bit and create characters rather than stats.

>>48767551
Basically a promethean without the disquiet mechanics that's hunted as if it were a demon.

>>48767540

The book literally says "not all Alchemists are crazy, we're specifically talking about the assholes who hunt and murder the Created to eat the delicious candy goo inside them," and beyond that Matt said he might do playable Alchemists in a supplement. Calm down.

And once the DE Companion hits, the Sekhem Sorcerers should provide an acceptable stopgap.

>>48767612
> The book literally says
It contradicts itself. I'm not complaining about alchemists and heroes being unplayable, I'm complaining about their writing being absolutely terrible.

Is the Dark Eras fiction anthology worth the 5 dollarydoos?

>>48767540
They're not really the defining qualities of both. Powers are never someone's defining qualities (which is good, because Hero powers aren't that interesting).

Also, it's not a botched anything. It's a perfectly legitimate reason.

>>48767557
But that's not true, in either case. Hell, plenty of places in Heroes talk about good Heroes, and there's even a section on healing them.

>>48767612
But because they don't focus on good Alchemists, that means that the book treats them all as evil monsters!

>>48767653
How is it absolutely terrible? People I know and talk to and who I trust like them. Why is it that /tg/ is always so dumb and wrong and thinks everything is garbage?

>>48767673

I mean, it's no Mummy fiction, but it's still pretty dang good.

>>48763436
Yes, I spun together and expanded a little on Infinite Macabre and Bleeding Edge and wove up my own proper scifi setting. I've run a few short games in it so far, it's actually been way better horror than anything else I've ever run.

The best set up I've run by far was the PCs were on a small freighter running a mapping expedition of the outer gates, when they found themselves trapped on the other side of a gate which had been damaged (Gates being essentially indestructible) and were confronted with the prospect of about 2 years worth of travel by the (comparably slow at ~1000c) hyperdrive to get to human controlled space. Where they had brought a little over 2 months worth of food (If rationed correctly) and in a setting with no cryo.

What followed was a romp through dead worlds, and the slow moral degradation of the crew as they transitioned from merely being paranoid and afraid of alien lifeforms after a couple of incidents (that considerably accelerated the wear and breakage of the ship itself), to the grim realisation that every time they found alien life that was friendly, they would have to beguile, kill and eat them, as the only source of protein they could get in deep space.

>>48767689
Are you being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian or are you really this stupid?

>>48767689

Hey Geckopirateship, you ever tire of shitting on every game because it doesn't allow for your special transhumanist game?

>>48767741
Ok that's really fun and good on you anon for thinking this through.

>>48767557
>>48767540
Heroes aren't give rules to be played because the kind of Heroes who don't kill Beasts don't even encounter them, and don't even do anything worth making a campaign about.(They literally just travel around and smooth out the wrinkles in the Dream by being in the right general area, iirc)
Alchemists aren't playable in the 2e core because they had a word count to adhere to and the most relevant Alchemists are the ones who kill Promethean.
It wouldn't even be difficult to make Alchemists playable; just slap a 5 xp price tag on raising their power stat, and the problem is solved.

>>48767551
Someone who was changed by an experiment of some sort, and is no longer entirely human. Based on what Dave has said, it's possible to not have any Variances(powers), and just be an ordinary person who survived weird experimental shit and is probably just being observed by the people who did the experiment, but that's boring. Each Variance you take gives you a Scar, something that marks you as more-than-human. Their power stat starts at 0, caps at 5, and their Supernatural Tolerance rolls add their highest Variance + their power stat, to make up for the lowered cap.
They have no Vice or Virtue, and instead have 2 morality tracks. Each one has a touchstone, and each touchstone acts as either a Virtue or Vice, depending on whether or not you're rebelling against the people that made you or being a lap dog for them.
They can choose to gain a bunch of Variances at once, and in turn gain an equal number of Scars, but the changes are irreversible, and will likely result in your swift death when the army drops a nuke on your cathedral-sized ass.

That's more or less all we know.

>>48767783

I sure wish he would.

>>48767783
>>48767826
Geckopirateship hates Beast and I just defended Heroes. I wasn't even shitting on anything, I was defending Promethean for not having the transhumanism-by-way-of-murder character type be playable. I'm not sure how you would mistake us. I mean, I'm clearly Aspel. I'm a thread regular.

>>48767755
No, I just don't see why you're saying it's absolute trash.

>>48767741
>>48767784
I keep wanting to do a Shadowrun style hack, that has rules for cyberware and The Matrix.

>>48767815
Heroes don't have rules because the possibility of good Heroes was a last minute change, and Alchemist doesn't have a template because it isn't necessary to the game for them to be playable.
It's honestly weird to me that people are practically demanding that they have templates for them. No one begs to play a Claimed or Strix.

>>48767859

Two birds, one stone, Aspel; make the Matrix and Twilight/the Shadow the same thing.

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How did your last Hunter: the Vigil game go?

>>48767859
Honestly, what I've found the two games I've run with my Infinite Macabre/Bleeding Edge mashup is that the Bleeding Edge rules for cyberware are *WAY* more robust than anyone gives them credit for.

They initially seem underwhelming because you're basically spending merit dots to boost your willpower dice gain to *one* skill, and I'd agree that maybe the dice gain on those skills could be increased to make cyberware more attractive, but in terms of gameplay and fluff it works out real nice, because its a clear moment where I dunno, the PCs cybereyes glow momentarily, or the crackle of discharging capacitors in the PCs legs can be heard. Because it consumes merit dots it also makes the PCs think very carefully about cyberware and they tend to go hard or go home to justify the benefit. The optional rule to emulate supernatural powers also got some cool use. In the 2nd campaign one of the PCs was an occultist in a party that were a bunch of researchers setting out on an expedition, and he spend most of the campaign jankily constructing from parts he found around the place (some of which he barely understood) and then painfully (and nearly lethally) installing within himself a particle accelerator that emulated the final ability of Blood Tenebrous, to prove to everyone else that he totally wasn't crazy for believing in spirits (and in the process proving he was crazy for other reasons).

>>48767959
One of them got a demonic artifact to possess people with Inferno demons and started to go mad over the soft murmurs of the key. The other fell into alcoholism and the last one locked herself in her home and never left again.

6/10 no TPK

>>48767859

>No one begs to play a Claimed or Strix

That's where you're wrong, fucker. Always wanted to do a Claimed or Strix campaign. A Strix campaign is surprisingly viable with their 2e mechanics.

>>48767959
Excellent. We narrowly defeated a team of vampires who were trying to hunt us down and kidnap my character.

>>48768342

Well of course it would to you, you've got have to something to argue about with everyone in the thread or else no one would pay any attention to you.

>>48767959
It was like a year ago. They started out as a Bomb Squadee/Homicide Detective who was "too old for this shit"(He made a point of playing an old character so he could say this), a high school senior who only had one friend but had True Friend for her and was obsessed with trying to prove that supernatural shit existed, and the leader of the city's branch of a cult based around Seeing The Unseen, or something along those lines(he took Mystery Cult Influence 4, iirc, and took Clairvoyance).
Oh, and a lone wolf ex-spec ops sniper with an unspecified sort of PTSD who slept in all day and never wanted to talk to anybody. She was only there for the first couple of sessions, then the guy who played her disappeared.

I started it off with the ex-soldier finding a dead body while out on a jog one night, and the Detective being the guy assigned to the case. The body was a woman who'd had both of her legs broken, her chest cracked open and her heart torn out and left in her hands, and she was drained of blood. There was also a rune left on the inside of her cheek and signs of consensual sex within an hour of her death.
Oh, and she was the high schooler's English teacher.
Earlier the night the soldier found the body, the cultist saw his neighbor, the woman, getting home late with a man.

~4 sessions later, they attended a memorial being held at the school for the teacher, and noticed a guy in the center of the crowd wearing a nice suit, who seemed completely out of place, with a smile that read a little bit 'hahaha' and a little bit 'oh shit what am i doing here'

A couple sessions after that, they were making plans to storm his apartment and stake him, because they figured out he was a vampire.

TL;DR of the actual plot is, he was a Daeva, him and the teacher swiped right on each other on Tinder, then met at the end of the street the teacher lived on. A few hours of Majesty-induced romance out on the town later, they went back to her place and banged.
(Cont shortly)

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>>48767898
I was planning on essentially treating The Matrix like Shadow.

>>48767967
See, I'm pretty familiar with homebrewing, and I've done some stuff in the past that was pretty similar to the 'ware rules in Bleeding Edge. I didn't like that, because it felt limited and unimpressive. Not because I don't like the idea, but because I don't like their system and it felt very "here's an idea, go do the rest yourself".

I actually used it to transfer a Mutants and Masterminds game over to WoD, because I liked the rules better. Here're the powers. This PDF isn't pretty like the ones I'm known for, I was too lazy. I didn't even look these over. They're all 1e.

>>48768442
Whoops. Forgot to link. Also, I don't hate it or anything. I just don't find it interesting. I would have liked more of it, if nothing else, but I also dislike that it used Willpower.

Also, I don't just argue; I share my opinion and discuss.

>>48768232
Both kind of sound boring to me.

>>48768466

He got too into it and drained her, then panicked and mutilated the body to try and preserve the Masquerade, making it look like there was a cult involvement to try and blame the neighbor.
It didn't go well, overall; this was before the new Investigation rules were out, and I spent most of the sessions giving them small clues and trying to let them piece it together themselves; the problem being that none of my players were very good at making logical leaps, and I kept having to give them suggestions for how to proceed.
It also went way too slow, but that was partly because it was entirely text-based.
I also probably should have started them off as actual Hunters, rather than unacquainted mortals just getting into the Vigil, like I did.

>>48768466
>>48768486
>A couple sessions after that, they were making plans to storm his apartment and stake him, because they figured out he was a vampire.
I forgot to mention, this never actually came to fruition. The game ended after that session, because all the reasons I explained.
It's a shame, too, because my plan for the next thing they hunted was a pyromaniac Changeling, and that would have been fun.

>>48766447
>I'm having trouble thinking of any game that would make people ragequit from the base rules.
Not even the obvious one? FATAL

>>48768939
This is true. Tried building a character with my buddies to see if it could even work. One of us rolled (necessary, as some character creation rolls take like 20 dice), the other read the results from the book and said what was next, and the other recorded. We rolled literally everything, as you're supposed to. Between laughing at it all and actually doing it, it took us over three hours to make a single character.

Fuck that system, and fuck the literal autist who made it.

>>48766447
>But in the end, I'm having trouble thinking of any game that would make people ragequit from the base rules.
I know several games with shitty base rules. Most of the time people don't even pick them up. But I think he meant games where the setting/politics were antithetical to your own. For instance, I'm not gonna play RaHoWa the RPG (though I hear those mechanics are also shitty). And of course there a lot of people who bitch that WoD is too SJW.
Not really political, but I know plenty of people who dislike CthulhuTech because of the shitty attitude that the creators have/had (they seem to have eased up on the "this is my game play it my way", judging from the 2e playtest), like the sexism and rape and railroading metaplot.

Like the one module where a character is captured and raped, rocks fall style.

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>>48763436
>Have you ever run a sci-fi-esque game?

Yes, we played this awesome VtM game, years ago.

I don't remember 100% of the setting, but we decided to try a futuristic settings, where vampires are still "alive" (so Gehenna didn't happen) - a future World of Darkness.

Technocracy rules the planet, mages are in hiding, and vampires have this pact with the system: no Masquerade breach, no problem.
Werewolves fled into the Umbra, never to be seen again - they basically lost.

It was very interesting to play the same undead creatures in a cyberpunk setting.
I think we changed some of the Disciplines, but I don't remember what were these changes.

It was fun.

>>48763476

I remember we used all kinds of Technocratic horrors: mechanic parasites in people, Terminator-style killer robots in human disguise, and even computer viruses that could materialize in the physical plane (like ghosts or spirits).

Also the Technocracy created a lot of new devices to ensure vampires won't rebel: nanobots in the blood, anti-undead weaponry that works with the spirits of the dead, etc...

It was spooky (but yeah, it really depends on the GM).

The World of Darkness is, in fact, can be a perfect setting for sci-fi horror.

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>>48768484
>I was planning on essentially treating The Matrix like Shadow.

Make sure you do it like WW did it in the early 90's.

>>48769930
No, I mean that the Matrix would be a separate reality where you use ephemeral traits and there are certain numina and so on. I could also say that it's like the Astral.

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What are some good ideas for the start of a Promethean chronicle?

I don't want to actually cocktease my players and fail to follow through unless I can think of a good idea, but getting the throng together is always so fucking difficult. I hate "you all meet in a tavern". Though I guess "you're all lead by the same Qashmal" might work...

>>48766143
Now you understand why WoD fans hate it when writers push their agenda.

Hey, is the anon from NYC here? I wanted to ask, where do you think there might be a spot in any of the Boroughs that a wooded area could feasibly have been purchased, a few acres, for a manor? I want to set up a ghouled family ala NWoD of a Toreador, who owns the spot for the past century or so, and the estate is used as an Elysium.

>>48767959
Poorly. It was a detective and a college student, both of them were unfamiliar with the Vigil. The professor's wife disappeared without a trace. Her family didn't remember either of them, all their photos had been altered, and apparent months had passed since he last saw her. Driven by paranoia and worry, he begins hunting stranger and stranger relics that lead him towards what happened to his wife. She Awoke and fled her mundane life, she muddled up the ritual and only he remembers her

It went poorly because he switched from school teacher to investigator last minute, didn't compensate with the appropriate skills, and didn't bother questioning people, anyway. Cool character though

Here's the Demon books again for anyone who didn't get em last thread

https://mega.nz/#F!3ElwBRpK!pC3J0VfZr2wnUSCuRcDj_w

Sorry if this argument has been gone over already, but I am very unfamiliar with gamelines. I grew interested in this game after stumbling upon Genius the Transgression fan-line and have been slowly familiarizing myself with other gamelines. Haven't read Mage rulebooks yet, but I do need to ask this:
What exactly makes pulpy Mad Scientists more unsuitable for horror game that reality warping Sorcerers?

>>48772123
Yeah I'm here. Check out Staten Island. Shit has dumps, woods, abandoned mental hospitals and a few years ago there was a documentary about a boogie man named Cropsey which was based on a real case of a bunch of kids being kidnapped without a trace. They blamed it on a guy living in the abandoned mental hospital with very flimsy to no evidence.

>>48772865
Anyway, there might be a few areas in the North Bronx or Queens that fit that also but they'd be on the outskirts so added to the city some time in 1850-1900. If you want instant drama, look at how late Brooklyn was an independent city and how important it was to the national economy. Now imagine what went down when it was folded into NYC on the vampiric end.

>>48772865
>>48772905
That's actually perfect. The google stuff I'm finding for staten island indicated that it might be workable since it had a lot of the reclamation area and woodlands and parks, and just changing a little of that for some privately-owned space would work.

I will also dig into that history, that sounds rife for Invictus shenanigans. Thanks a lot.

>>48772779
Nothing. Mage the Ascension has half the mages be mad scientists. CofD players just hate fun and things that aren't the darkest shade of black

>>48772915
Isn't the CofD Mage called Awakening though? I haven't exactly understood what makes Awakening more acceptable for horror?

>>48772914
No problem man. Here's a tip: the North Bronx is in a state of flux right now. There are early signs of gentrification. A fucking Pinkberry opened up on Fordham Road. This is the same street where the comic store is a money laundering scheme (no comics, one worker, closed door meeting all the time) and Albanian pizza places where the owner threatens unruly customers with a sawed off he keeps under the counter.

Anyway, if you want a vampire based in the The Bronx that isn't a racial stereotype, I'd suggest using a college. There are a bunch littered around and one, Fordham University, has its oldest campus there. It's big, got books, got college kids who party occasionally, haunted dorms, tunnels for transporting the dead with many rumors of people dying down there, haunted churches, and it has beautiful landscaping. It's also my alma mater so that's cool.

>>48772981
Mage the Ascension (the old one) is goofy 90s schlock.

>>48772981
Right, and I'm talking about WoD, where the Mage line was called Ascension. And in Ascension, half the mages were scientists that went around doing super science.

Genius is in a lot of people's opinion, too hopeful. A genius could fix a lot of shit, while magic is only helpful for a few people because very few people can wield it.

What you'll also see is that CofD players are fanatical about their games and hate anything that's not CofD, like >>48773001

Every single CofD player I've met is an asshole that talks about why CofD is the best game line ever and everything else is badwrongfun

>>48772987
That's awesome. I will definitely add Fordham University as a place to interact with and do some research on it. Any other cool stuff in the non-Manhattan areas that you think would be flavorful?

>>48773018
I don't like CofD either, faggot. I just think Ascension is stupid as fuck.

>>48773040
DUMBO, those abandoned sugar factories in Brooklyn, many of the projects have parks in front of them where monuments and the occasional festival is held, Lincoln Center in Manhattan is built on a Puerto Rican community called Saun Juan Hill where the city essentially told them to get out and here is a hundred bucks, lots of Koreans in Queens except for Astoria which is Greek, some parts of Brooklyn are all muslim, learn some Wu-Tang code names for vamps that gre up during those times so elders will have no idea what the fuck burough they are talking about, remember that this is the city Malcom X loved and died in, everywhere has haunted as shit places just look online for haunted NYC, the famous Little Italy is acutely surrounded by Chinatown due to successive waves of immigration, Cobey Island is owned by the Russians, the Albanians and Blacks hate each other in the Bronx and may have been involved in massive brawls in the past, look up the documentary Rubble Kings for some good gang shit that hit NYC back in the day, just look up Robert Moses as a man who is the devil incarnate for building roads through people's homes, and always remember that Times Square is a fucking shithole NO ONE WANTS TO SPEND TIME IN but the statue of Father Kelly is pretty cool.

This got a bit rambling but I wanted to get everything I could think of down. And the last part is because I got stuck on a sidewalk unmoving for at least twenty minutes the other day due to construction. I hope this helps out

>>48773159
Sorry I meant Coney Island.

>>48773171
Oh and a lot of Brooklyn isn't hipster land. Good portion is industrial as fuck. Look up a restaurant called the Arrogant Swine in Brooklyn and google Earth around it to see what I mean.

Anyone got a pdf of the Fallen World Chronicle Anthology to share? Or Tales of the Dark Eras? I'd love to read them!

>>48770289

You could have it so that they already know each other via some kind of e-mail chain or internet forum, and they're meeting up for the first time. Then spooky stuff happens.

>>48771373

You only say that because you don't regularly read Eclipse Phase. WoD's politically neutral compared to it.

>>48771373
>Implying implications
If you hate that, you've had almost 30 years to get used to it or ditch the game.

>>48773563
http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1430238641

>>48772779
>>48772915
>>48773018
The reason Genius doesn't fit is because the tone is completely different. Ascension's tone on the other hand is already barely horror at all. It's not that Genius isn't "the darkest shade of black", it's that it's gonzo insanity that ignores most of the nWoD setting and was created specifically because some Ascension fan was butthurt that Awakening went for a completely different tone.

>Genius is in a lot of people's opinion, too hopeful. A genius could fix a lot of shit, while magic is only helpful for a few people because very few people can wield it.
Mage is hopeful as well, and magic is wielded by as many people as there are Geniuses.
>Every single CofD player I've met is an asshole that talks about why CofD is the best game line ever and everything else is badwrongfun
"This game doesn't fit [and also has terrible mechanics and was made by someone out of bitterness]" is not saying that everything else is badwrongfun. Genius IS a CofD fangame. And, hell, I've talked about how I like Princess and think it's well done, and that's pretty hopeful.

If you think every single CofD player is an asshole, I'd question why you're still in this mostly CofD thread. I'm not saying you should gtfo, but I do still question it.

>>48775364
I still haven't gotten around finding and reading Mage the Awakening so I honestly have no idea how exactly the tone fits better? No jokes in the book?
Also couldn't help but notice that many gamelines I've seen so far seem to take inspirations from other non-horror or semi-horror genres, such as fairy tales in case of changeling, Gothic in case of vampire, pulp/sci-fi for mad science...
Does this trend continue in other books I haven't read?

So since Hunters got screwed over with an update instead of a proper second edition, did anyone ever create a proper 2nd edition hunter book by splicing the PDF's together?

>>48775777
Why would anyone waste time doing that?

So, the Forums are abuzz with Perfected Materials OpenDev. What are your thoughts?

>>48775807
I'm glad Mages have another toy that's better than everyone else's and that nobody else can play with.

>>48775824
As written, Werewolves and Sin-Eaters could end up with perfected materials on accident. I wonder if any book follows up on it.

>>48775824
BTW, which game do you think deserves more love?

>>48775693
>No jokes in the book?
Awakening literally has Bob the Builder and Scientology as an evil cult (complete with Tom Cruise as a Banisher). It's not the jokes, it's the fact that Awakening is more serious and grounded and focuses on horror and urban fantasy, while Genius is more pulp adventure. Compare Dresden Files or Hellblazer with The Mummy or that Captain America cover where he's punching out Hitler.

In Genius, fighting the final boss of Wolfenstien (Hitler [clone?] in a mech suit) is perfectly likely to happen.

It's not that it's mad science. Deviant will have that and Promethean has that, and even Mage allows for mad science. It's the tone.

>>48775777
Not only >>48775794 but Hunter didn't get "screwed over", it just didn't have time. A small PDF update is a lot easier than developing a complete second edition; which, you know, it's still getting some time next year or so.

>>48775824
"abloobloo"
Actually, as >>48775880 says, anyone capable of converting something into ephemera are capable of using Perfected Metals, and why does no one complain about shit like The Pack being "Werewolves getting another toy that's better than everyone else's and that nobody else can play with"?

>>48775777

They're literally reviewing submissions for Hunter 2e right now.

so geckopirateship is asking the forum mods to permaban him

>>48776083
BEcause the Pack is just werewol shit, Perfected materials trump every other splat and to Mages they're just that - toys

>>48775807
I like it. Item creation was so far bit underwhelming. That said, I think that some of those materials could use toning down. The unbreakability of some of them could be bit overpowered. But I really like the yantra bonuses they give, because so far yantras where bit boring, this will bring much needed variety. Last part, Living Materials was great, it will make for some good plot hooks.

I had little problem with perfected materials working as banes, because with Changelings and iron it would be exactly opposite to what it should be. I would possibly rule it as exception and explained that Faes have strong pact with some aspect of perfected iron and perversion of that pure material actually hurts them more (normal processed iron just disrupts fae magic and cold iron, which is completely unprocessed deals aggravated).

>>48776126
You have me confused. How do Perfected Materials trump other splats?

>>48776160
Because they're cool, I guess.

>>48776126
How are they "just toys" any more than anything else? Would a book of fetishes be "just toys" for Werewolves?

>>48776154
>The unbreakability of some of them could be bit overpowered
How often has item breakage actually come up in your games?

>>48775824
God-Mages winning once again

Other splats, are you even trying?

Seriously, why would someone be other thing than a Mage?

>>48776213
>How are they "just toys" any more than anything else? Would a book of fetishes be "just toys" for Werewolves?

Can werewolves make fetishes from thin air with a single power?

>>48770289
The same alchemist has kidnapped all of you. Worse of all; she doesn't want you for your body. Start the story as a flashback of each of the characters being chased, hiding among humans, and being captured(1-3 scenes) Have the characters who are not the Promethean play side characters with aspirations(things like 'get this thing out of my house', 'stalk that woman I love/hate', and 'loose track of my dog while he goes off seeking danger and death'); if you think they did a good job fulfilling the side characters aspiration then give their Promethean character a beat. Everyone gets a 'how I got here flashback' that helps flesh out each character while keeping everyone engaged.

Now that we know how everyone got here you are sent on a mission by the alchemist to find her wayward student and bring him to justice. She offers books written by Promethean as well as objects Promethean have desperately clung to. Don't worry this deal is tots legit and no one is backstabbing anyone just don't ask how I got all this prommie memorabilia...

>>48776233
They could have already done that. Perfected Materials don't change anything. Besides, when it comes to variety Perfected materials have squat on Fetishes.

>>48776233

"thin air"? No.

"from resources that are literally in such abundance that you trip over them just wandering aroung"? Yes.

"A strong-ish spirt and a stick" is not exactly something werewolves work hard to find.

>>48776364
*snap fingers*

Now I have perfected Silver. Hope you like being dead silly fuzzball

>>48776213
>How often has item breakage actually come up in your games?
It's not about breakage, sooner or later players will start to use it to make armors which make you invincible and indestructible fortresses.

>>48776392
>Perfected materials count as their mundane counterparts with regard to if a creature counts them as its bane. They don’t do extra damage or have any other greater effect beyond any special rules for the material, but they do discard all other qualifiers a bane might have. If a spirit is only vulnerable to a consecrated, silver, dagger, any lunargent object will affect it as a bane.
You didn't read it, did you?

>>4877641
Spoilers: Indestructible armor is fucking bad for a body. It means 100% of that force is transmitted straight to the soft flesh inside.

Never mind that armor has meant dick-all to mages literally from the beginning. "Oh nooo he's inside an unbreakable iron shell! If only there was a way I could literally hate him to death at a spiritual level!"

>>48776392
Someone who does that is a either Master of Matter, or already had Silver on hand.
In either case, the fact that its 'perfected' Silver is the least of the Werewolf's problems.
Especially in the former case, because few things in the WoD are as good as a Master of Matter with some knowledge of chemistry or physics.

>>48776419
When your opponents have magic, unbreakable stuff is not that big of a deal. All Arcana have ways to work around that. On the other hand, if your players jump through hoops to make super-equipment they deserve some reward.

>>48775824
Another toy? Dude perfected metals have been a thing sense 1E.

>>48776392
Mage doesn't work the way you think it works.

>>48776419
Durability of armour doesn't stop damage.

>>48776452
Let's be honest, the game doesn't think about how armour works other than "the number before the slash is how much damage is ignored, the armour after the slash represents how much of a firearms attack is downgraded to bashing first."

Is there any reason not to bring the old pledge rules back into changeling 2e? The new ones seem alot more limited and boring

>>48776422
Well so what do you try to say? That you don't consider cold iron mundane counterpart of perfected iron? I don't know how more mundane you could go.

>>48776452
It doesn't really work so simply like that. It heavily depends on curvature and shape of armor and actual weight and type of weapon. There is reason why knights preferred to use maces against each other instead of swords and it wasn't because swords were lighter(they often weren't) or because they would get blunt.

>>48776452
>>48776470
Problem is that mages don't encounter just each other. Werewolf would be able to only cry if encountering mage in such armor, goodbye taking advantage of moment of surprise.

>>48776847
>Durability of armour doesn't stop damage.
In case someone is inside indestructible shell which you can't even scratch I think it's appropriate to make some adjustments.

>>48767959
We finally made a lasting relationship with the local werewolf pack, adding them to the list with changelings and sin eaters.

>>48776954
>Well so what do you try to say? That you don't consider cold iron mundane counterpart of perfected iron? I don't know how more mundane you could go.
I'm saying that Perfected Silver is as harmful to Werewolves as ordinary silver. If one suggests otherwise it means they didn't read the preview and pulled their opinion out of their ass.

>>48776954
>In case someone is inside indestructible shell which you can't even scratch I think it's appropriate to make some adjustments
Well you're wrong since that isn't how real life works at all but suit yourself I suppose.

>>48776878
The old ones were stupid and abusable and tended to not do what they were intended to do. New ones could be more interesting, but at least they're not a tacked on bit of free points with no real downsides.

>>48776954
>Well so what do you try to say? That you don't consider cold iron mundane counterpart of perfected iron? I don't know how more mundane you could go.
He was actually pointing out that lunargent isn't any more or less deadly to Werewolves. Siderite would only harm a Fae if it was made without using Honing the Form, because using magic to make a weapon better makes it un-Cold. Using the transfer from ephemeral to material to purify it is fine. And then you have to beat Siderite into shape anyway.

>>48776954
>Problem is that mages don't encounter just each other. Werewolf would be able to only cry if encountering mage in such armor, goodbye taking advantage of moment of surprise.
They can dig a hole, grab the Mage, throw them in and bury them.

>>48777053
How were the old ones bad? They seem pretty straight forward from reading them, and alot more versitile then just getting protection from huntsmen.

But why can Mages do everything the other splats do and better?

>>48777174
Dave has the best tongue for editor blowjobs

>>48777174
Pretend I posted a 'this is bait' picture

>>48777013
Why do you keep bringing werewolves into this, can't you make yourself clear ffs?

>>48777053
I actually haven't consider having two types of perfected iron, it seems kinda weird, but it's certainly possibility.

>>48777127
Kek, while dogs bury bones, werewolves bury Mages. For later.

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>Amalgams
Hermiumiscapableofforminganamalgamwithanyoftheotherperfectedmetals.TheresultingamalgamsretaintheSupernalpropertiesofbothofthecombinedmetals.Astheamalgamforms,themetaltransitionstoaliquidstate,thenhardensintoafirmstate.Softer metals, such as orichalcum and apeiron become harder than normal when formed into an amalgam with hermium. In many cases, these amalgams are formed forthesolepurpose of shapingone orbothof themetals intoaspecificshape.
So can I use Hermium to combine all the metals into one super metal?

>>48777142
They basically let players craft "this is what I'm going to do anyway" Pledges for free goodies, and little more than that.

>>48777174
Because you're an idiot and don't actually understand how Mages work, so you think they can do everything instantly with no drawbacks.

>>48777266
>Why do you keep bringing werewolves into this
Because he replied to a post specifically about a Mage snapping his fingers, creating Perfected Silver, and taunting a werewolf? Why do you keep bringing Changelings into this?
>I actually haven't consider having two types of perfected iron, it seems kinda weird, but it's certainly possibility.
First off, the games aren't intended to interact 100% in the first place. But beyond that, Changeling specifically spells out that magically creating or manipulating pure iron doesn't work as Cold Iron, so Hone The Perfected Form likewise wouldn't work. But you don't need to use that spell to create siderite.

>>48777266
>Why do you keep bringing werewolves into this, can't you make yourself clear ffs?
It all started with this post:
>Now I have perfected Silver. Hope you like being dead silly fuzzball
It referred to Werewolves and I responded to it. I didn't bring them into the conversation. They were already there when I came. Honest!

>>48777319
Goddamnit why are the fucking spaces in this document fucked up?

>>48777319
>Because he replied to a post specifically about a Mage snapping his fingers, creating Perfected Silver, and taunting a werewolf? Why do you keep bringing Changelings into this?
Brother/Sister, we are united by reading comprehension. Will you accept my fistbump?

>>48777174

Because if you don't read the rules and understand them then everything is screwed.

Some people think the 'jump' action paired with 1 success means they can jump to the moon if that 1 success comes from a condition, rather then rolling.

Some people think success is equal to victory when success is often just advancement.

Some people think that if the odds are in their favor, then they are no longer odds but constants in this universe.

I am still surprised when I see people attack with a chance die, choose not to aim for body parts because it will lower their dice pool from a chance die, to a chance die.

>>48777319
>>48777319
Yeah, sorry I kinda missed flow of conversation, I thought it was reaction to my post about Changeling and iron.

>>48777448
That's okay. I got to be snarky while maintaining a clear conscience, so that counts for something. You, however, went ahead and admitted a mistake. On an anonymous forum, no less. Will you accept my fistbump too?

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>>48776154
>I really like the yantra bonuses they give, because so far yantras where bit boring
Honestly, I'm not impressed; it's still just +2s. I want more interesting yantras besides "use the biggest bonus". That's definitely a complaint 2hu had that I agree with.

I want yantras that give free spell factors (like 1e's Rote Factors from Tome of Mysteries) and more that give -2 to Paradox. I want Yantras that give 9- or 8-Again. Maybe some "poisoned" Yantras that make 1s cancel successes or something. I want non-Prelacy Patron Yantras.

>>48777392
>tfw you feel like an image definitely exists, but this is the closest you could find on Google

>>48777507
>>tfw you feel like an image definitely exists, but this is the closest you could find on Google
I like it.

>>48777507
But some do give the 9-again quality. They mention this in the other perfected metals.
"These Perfected materials are better than their mundane counterparts similar to the Perfected metals, but they do not carry the same benefits to enchanting, though they also give the 9-again quality to spellcasting when used as a Path Tool."

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>>48763854

>>48766143
Now I wanna give it a look, more from morbid curiosity than anything. Is that all in the core? Has it been through multiple editions.

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>>48777507
Google says the character on the right belongs to MLP.

Truly this is the worst general.

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>>48777614
It's the Pony Princess as a human. Although at first I got her confused with the moon one, so I wasn't sure why they were fistbumping.

Really, this one is more fitting, but I'm too much of an SJW to like bros before hoes, plus the phrase doesn't fit the conversation, and also they're not fistbumping. Oh God maybe I am autistic
>>48778010
>Truly this is the worst general.
What part of "this is the first one that came up when I typed Dark Souls fistbump into Google" do you not understand?
Actually it was two random guys in armour, but hammers suck and this one had Solaire

>>48777637
Oh, so they do. I wonder if that's counting the normal +1 Path Tool bonus or not?

>>48767959
Not necessarily "last" hunter game, more like current. But the party just finished info-gathering on a slasher in charge of a new chapter of a gang that just moved into their city, and happens to be selling guns to the larger local gang who already hate the party due to the fact they've killed quite a few of them.

>>48776878
>>48777053
Only reason to not use old pledge rules is using them instead in some other game game line (one of things I hated in Demon).

Which splat comes with the least baggage attached? As in which ones can maintain a human life easiest?

>>48778235
Purified

>>48778223
That's not why they were changed. Demon also doesn't do the same thing Changeling does.

>>48778235
Hunter, technically.
Probably Geist or Mage. Mage has tons of incentives to delve into the supernatural, and Geist has pesterings with no actual mechanical weight.

>>48778069
WAMMU

>>48778235
hm...Demons with particularly high cover can do so decently well, but things are usually conspiring against them. Werewolves sorta can if they maintain harmony and are careful. Prometheans? Nah. Vampires? Can't really go out during the day so "normal" is difficult. Changelings always have people after them. Mummies? NAH. Sin eaters? Sooooorta? Though that depends on the geist, if they want to live a reckless and crazy life you probably won't be able to get away with retiring.

>>48778235
Mages can, but don't.
Sin-Eaters have it relatively easy.
Hunters if they quit.
Demons, mayyybe... until the Machine gets involved.

>>48778372
>hunters
>quitting
You mean Pariahs.

>>48778389
I don't remember that term. I assume it's a term. It has an Important Capital Letter.

>>48778441
Hunters who quit. Pretty much only mentioned in the glossary and never again.

>>48778441
Yea, it is. It refers to hunters who "quit", they tend to be looked down on the community and many get killed by creatures that they previously hunted once they've gone soft.

>>48778235
Mages? Since they are the best?

>>48778235
>>48778811
>As in which ones can maintain a human life easiest?

Mages, not because they're the "best," but rather because they are still fundamentally human, unlike vampires, werewolves and others.

In the dog eat dog world of the supernatural, however, being a squishy human is not always a benefit.

>>48778235
Demons.

If they just ignore machinary and relax, no one would be the wiser unless they cross path with some sort of special angel or infrastructure meant to pick Demons out of a crowd.

>>48778900
>In the dog eat dog world of the supernatural, however, being a squishy human is not always a benefit.

Being simply better than thou and being more durable than most beasties you will ever run into, though, is.

>>48778914
>Hell worked smoothly, and Israfel loved it. When he started this path to his Descent he was unsure if the complex arrangements would satisfy his needs — and his safety. But no angels had discovered this corner of existence, and it hid from the GodMachine with its perfect façade of banal human existence.

Deep beneath the carefully manicured lawns and smoothly-asphalted streets, the angel Sakkirel slowly extruded another thin root through the soil and into the plumbing of Israfel’s house. It tasted the demon’s waste, broke it into component molecules and added the data to what it had collected over the last six years. The tiny sound wave vibrations of Israfel’s conversations made the leaves of Sakkirel’s above-ground forms tremble and capture the words. The angel noted the information about a new family moving in, recalibrated its databanks and reset the root probes for the house to account for new samples. It had served its function carefully and silently from when the demon’s hell was being constructed. The ignorant Unchained never suspected the humans who moved in and out of its hell were carefully selected by the God-Machine to test the demon’s conscious and autonomic reactions to the stimuli. The humans weren’t groomed or altered in any way — the risk of exposure was too great for that.

Mages are driven to seek out weird shit, Demons have it thrust upon them. You try relaxing when the tree in your back yard might be an Angel tasting your Cover's poop for clues on how to kill you and your kind.

>>48778914
The problem is that it isn't that simple. Demons spend their entire lives looking for a place where they can get away from the god machine, as it just sorta....is drawn to them. Invariably they'll be found out and if they aren't actively keeping tabs on GMC shit, they won't even know. They had an example in one of the books, a demon settles down into a nice house thinking she got away from it all, gmc finds out and plants an angel in the form of a tree on her lawn that spies on her, and using the behavioral information it gathers the god machine manages to catch other demons.

>>48778981
>>48779004
To be the Devil's Advocate, a mage who leads a normie's existence is basically wasting his potential and screwing up his quest for enlightenment, while the default demon motivation and quest is to avoid the God Machine and just about any challenging endeavor is likely to risk lowering your Cover, so most storylines a demon will embark upon are to some extent contradictory with the goal of avoiding the GMC.

Does new hunter have some symbol code like old hunter did?

>>48779138
"New hunter"? It's not out yet. Unless you just mean Chronicles hunter.

>>48776108

Alchemists are a real dumb hill to die on, even if I do think having them be full-on antagonists as opposed to something like Demon's Exiles was not the best choice. They really couldn't accept that Promethean isn't a pure Frankenstein simulator. They probably wouldn't even be happy with that, since Frankenstein's main premise is "Hey, it'd be pretty fucked if men gave birth, huh?"

>>48776108
What?

>>48779478
But Alchemists *are* closer to Exiles. Or, at least, there are Alchemists who are not going to try to murder a Promethean.

>Frankenstein's main premise is "Hey, it'd be pretty fucked if men gave birth, huh?"
It's more "dead things should stay dead". I don't think Victor being Victoria would have helped anything.

>>48763823
WoD is urban fantasy that moonlights as horror. The street level play already looks a wee bit on the irrelevant side when you factor in all the magical realms people can wander into, adding in interstellar travel just makes that problem even worse.

>>48779478
>They probably wouldn't even be happy with that, since Frankenstein's main premise is "Hey, it'd be pretty fucked if men gave birth, huh?"

What a fucking bizarre reductionist take on Frankenstein. A female Demiurge/robotzombie-making-crazyperson (to let you know I'm not just talking about the PtC version) wouldn't have to be particularly different.

>>48779636
I like to summarize it as Lewisian Fantasy vs the more common Tolkienian Fantasy... even though its wildly inaccurate (a little more misleading as saying "Dungeons and Dragons is an RPG inspired by Hammer Horror and HP Lovecraft").

"Personal horror" was just the tagline for VtM, but somewhere down the line I've argued with a lot of fans who think that its supposed to be the indelible stamp of all WoD.

>>48779702
>I like to summarize it as Lewisian Fantasy
What exactly about the WoD screams edwardian anglicanism to you?

Hey lads, you probably get this question like all the fucking time, but is Vampire the Requiem 2.0 different at all from Blood and Smoke?

Like, both mechanically and aesthetically. I have Blood and Smoke, but holy fuck the layout is a mess, I can hardly tell where one paragraph is suppose to lead and when another is suppose to pick up

>>48779794
No

>>48779636
The argument that horror and urban fantasy are mutually exclusive is a fallacy. Especially since most of the urban fantasy works I'm familiar with are also horror; in fact, I've always seen the specific popular urban fantasy genre as the child of Gothic horror and mysteries.
Nevermind that many of the other realms are horrifying, and something being in space doesn't stop it from being horror.

>>48779702
But that's wrong... VtM is not the thing that created the idea of personal horror, whether that was it's tagline or not. Hell, it didn't really succeed that well, considering more emphasis seems to have been placed on the machinations of people beyond your power more than the monster you've become.

The Chronicles of Darkness--that is, all of nWoD--really *is* personal horror, though. That's the whole point behind the Morality systems, and the way that the games are closer to home and deal with things relevant to the players and the things they do. There are horrifying, terrible things out there, but what's terrifying isn't the fact that they might kill you, it's how they might leave you scarred.

And, once again, this is not antithetical to science fiction at all.

>>48779639
Pretty much anything he said in ten words would have been reductionist. I mean, even "don't play God" is pretty reductionist, and that's what I said it was.

>>48779794
>I can hardly tell where one paragraph is suppose to lead and when another is suppose to pick up
I have never had that problem, so that's all on you.

What's up with Dave retconning out older uses of a term if he decides to reuse it? Is he just too lazy to come up with new ones?

>>48779832
>I have never had that problem, so that's all on you.

Ah, I just found the layout odd and offputting. As if the paragraphs were too close together.

Anyway, thanks.

>>48779833
>Is he just too lazy to come up with new ones?
But... he's going to be coming up with new ones for the things he's changing. They just fit better elsewhere. For instance, calling something a "Goetic Demon" is confusing when there are thirty of those.

>>48779790
The same thing that screams Catholic Anarcho-Monarchic Walking Simulation to you about D&D.

But seriously, discovering a parallel fantasy world that is heavily tied to bizarre moral parables and allegories.

>>48779832
>The Chronicles of Darkness--that is, all of nWoD--really *is* personal horror, though. That's the whole point behind the Morality systems, and the way that the games are closer to home and deal with things relevant to the players and the things they do. There are horrifying, terrible things out there, but what's terrifying isn't the fact that they might kill you, it's how they might leave you scarred.

I am definitely not seeing how nDemon is more horrifying than oDemon, Geist more horrifying than Wraith (did wraith say "A Storytelling Game of Blank horror"? maybe I missed it), and so forth, and definitely not how nMage is more horror oriented than oMage.

>>48779558
>>48779639

I'll admit that it was more for humor's sake than an actual literary criticism, but I had always read the story as being about an unnatural birth and the tragedy of irresponsible parenting.

>>48779982
>Geist more horrifying than Wraith

Idk, maybe. I need to look closer at Geist, but Wraith reminded me of Beetlejuice with all the comedy sucked out of it

>>48779982
You don't know what personal horror means?

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104KB, 960x540px

>>48779982
EDITION WARS!

>>48780023
>>48779982
It isn't fair with Geist, because they accidentally made it a game about a bunch of drunk hipsters hanging out with ghosts before they went dumpster diving in the underworld.

Which is horrifying, but not how they intended.

>>48780034
Do tell us, anon


Yes, tell us


Enlighten us

Yes

>>48780101
Personal horror is gay that's what it is

>>48779832
>The argument that horror and urban fantasy are mutually exclusive is a fallacy.
Oh really, which one is it then? Because from where I'm standing the horror genre is far more dependent on the loss of agency in the face of menace while urban fantasy is about wizards in a loosely contemporary urban environment. They overlap, but they aren't identical. Anyway I was talking about how space opera settings make the mean streets of chicago seem parochial, it's a matter of scale.
>>48779871
Turning it from Goetic Demons as thoughtforms of your vices to Goetia being a generic term for Astral Denizens is not an improvement. Turning Tulpa from magic constructs to psychotic magic alter egoes is not an improvement and is actually offensive. Apeiron as perfect lead is not an improvement over Apeiron as the universal substance. Dave's changes are mostly bad and I can't imagine why he keeps insisting on making the terminology be less relevant to what it is discussing.

>>48780116
Yes. My friend must live in a constant nightmare.

>>48779832

Is there anything actually horrifying in an typical urban fantasy book, though? I mean like in the literary sense of the term, where it's all about creating a sense of unease in the reader. There's scary moments, but that seems to be more for the sake of establishing tension for the greater mystery or action narrative.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. WoD IS horror and urban fantasy. It wants to establish unease and also a modern world mixed with the fantastic. I'm just saying that even with something like the Red Court, it's hard to imagine the Dresden Files as horror.

>>48780119
Whenever I hear talk like this, I delay ever really reading the Mage books.

>>48780023
Your plate is a person, the wall you're leaning on is a person, and the Shadow is a hell of a lot more malevolent and hostile than the Geist, as it wants very badly and will almost certainly succeed in making you murder someone you care about or publicly humiliate yourself or whatever.

>>48780172
Feel free, WoD settings are always better in your head than on the page and Mage has severe creative differences through its run even before the edition shift and unlike Ascension doesn't have that ridiculous plurality of genres to go all smorgasbord with.

>>48780034
I do. You can say morality this or that, but torment and angst (lol at the name) and the side effects thereof sure seem to fit just fine. Demon seems more about weird techngnostic espionage or whatever and Geist seems to be more about making peace with mortality.

>>48780023

Wraith's more horrifying than Geist, but that's because Geist hasn't really hit its full potential yet. I'd say their Underworld are both pretty terrifying in their own ways: Wraith's a broken system wrapped in nihilism, and Geist's is a literal prison for the dead where sin is the only real pasttime. I love both takes quite a lot.

>>48779982
nDemon really deserves to have a good 20th anniversary to make up for that shitty original run it had.

>>48780262
*oDemon

>>48780119
Fantasy and horror are genres but the "horror" used in the sense of an RPG is "malign paradigm shifts" whereas the horror used in the sense of most fictional genres is "monsters or slashers cut people up" and is usually more about terror than horror.

In the precisely accurate RPG sense of the word fantasy and horror do not conflict, in the colloquial term used in movie genres they do. A horror fantasy thingamadoodle implies to normies that hobbits will be chopped up by orcs in freaky masks, RPGers are perfectly aware horror isn't indistinguishable from being chopped up and that fantasy isn't indistinguishable from fantasy.

Alright folks, Vamp the Masq player here! I recently started playing a Tremere (wasn't my idea, I just asked for an NPC I could take over for two sessions, since my old character died and I didn't have time to make a new one). I'm pretty new to Vamp the Masq anyway, played it only for a few years, and haven't tried that many different characters before, and especially not a Tremere.

I now have a plenty of XP points with which to modify the character, and I'm really going to go with the Wizard-agent that uses secrecy and cunning to carve an existance. Started with Focused Mind, so currently amping it with Path of Blood, Conjuration, and Focused Mind. I've focused on rituals that let you deduce stuff from blood, hide you, reveal things, and help with scrying (including the ritual Scry).

Any tips more experienced Tremere-players would like to give? I'm especially interested in the fifth dot rituals, if I ever manage to get them, that let you go into the other planes of existance, Shadowland and Umbra. Are there ways to protect my Warlock in those realms that doesn't require you to learn Necromancy, or Path of Spirit Manipulation?

>>48779982
I feel like you're not really sure what you're arguing.

>>48780023
>>48780066
The problem with Geist is that it has a lot of the same stuff as Wraith ("there's a ghost in your head") but there's no real mechanical weight to that fact, so it doesn't matter to most people.

>>48780101
Horror of a personal nature. For instance, in Demon: The Descent, you're still dealing with big powerful entities that want to do you harm, but unlike in Masquerade, they're a) not your bosses, and b) want you, personally, not to see you as a pawn, but for the things you know and can do and what you're made of. You also, you know, have to create a patchwork life out of begging, borrowing, and stealing other people's identities. You have no existence other than what you literally cobble together from other people.

>>48780119
Loss of agency doesn't mean you have to fail, and it doesn't mean you can't have agency. A Mage has more agency than a mortal, but that doesn't mean they don't feel a loss of agency when dealing with Abyssal Intruders. Or that experiencing the limitations of their agency and understanding the fact that the agency of the entire world is limited isn't one of their themes.
There's also a difference between psychological agency and narrative agency. Being a deity doesn't stop you from experiencing a loss of agency.

>the changes are mostly bad
They're almost entirely neutral and not worth mentioning or making a deal about, really.

>>48780156
Dresden Files is full of horror. I mean, shit, the list of shit Dresden has had to deal with is longer than my arm, and most of it has left emotional and psychic scars. Horror doesn't mean a lack of triumph (that's why most horror movies, even the ones with sequel bait hooks, end in success). Hell, the book that has given me the most unease wasn't even really "Horror"; it was the scene in House of Leaves where Johnny Truant has a panic attack in the dark back room of the tattoo parlor.

>>48780292
Just keep circling my point like an autist buddy

>>48780309
>no mechanical weight

Yeah, it really kills the game when you realize the Geist only benefits you, and can never actually hurt you.

You get a bunch of extra lives, and crazy ghost powers. Danny Phantom had more strife for being ghost-related.

>>48780156
Lets put it another way, Twilight is probably more fantasy than horror, right? Yet ultra horrifying shit happens in it and the vampires are distinctly more awful, prone to killing, and less desirable than, say, WoD ones. Even sex is horrifying and disgusting in Twilight.

Not sure where I'm going with this but basically horror has two very different connotations, "horror movie monster kills teen in a shower" (which Twilight isn't) vs "jesus christ how horrifying" (which Twilight definitely is).

>>48780318
Different guy than you were talking to, just pointing out that he's 100% indisputably correct, that fantasy and horror can't be viewed as mutually exclusive.

This has nothing to do with, say, whether nMage is horror (for a muggle, perhaps).

>>48780254
Wraith's problem is almost entirely that it's too 90s. It's like a grunge album.

>>48780242
Geist isn't really about making peace with mortality. It's memento mori.

>>48780292
>Fantasy and horror are genres but the "horror" used in the sense of an RPG is "malign paradigm shifts" whereas the horror used in the sense of most fictional genres is "monsters or slashers cut people up" and is usually more about terror than horror.
I wouldn't say either of those things are true...

Also, in no sense of the word do horror and fantasy conflict. Fantasy and horror are not incompatible. Hell, Game of Thrones seems to have a lot of elements of horror, and Dark Souls literally uses Haunted House attraction level design (complete with skeleton closets).

>A horror fantasy thingamadoodle implies to normies that hobbits will be chopped up by orcs in freaky masks
No it doesn't.

>>48780334
It's not even that. It's the fact that even if the Geist is crazy and shrieking in your head like in the Dem Bones SAS... you don't have to listen. Mechanically there's nothing. You can just say "I ignore it". It's not like Frenzy, where you Frenzy regardless of whether you *want* to.

>>48780349
I don't remember Twilight having blood orgies. Sure, the sex is gross and horrifying, but I think that's more because of Mormons. Also, yeah, Twilight has horror elements, but I don't think I'd call it horror simply because that's not the main focus, as far as I can tell. Just like I wouldn't call it adventure even though Bella goes on a roadtrip or something (or I'm wrong; I don't know).

>>48780309

>I feel like you're not really sure what you're arguing.

Against the silly argument that all nwod is personal horror and that if you disagree then you don't know what personal horror is.

>>48780425
>Geist isn't really about making peace with mortality. It's memento mori.

Too fine of a hair to split.

>>48780387
>fantasy and horror can't be viewed as mutually exclusive.
My god, how shocking. My argument that nWoD is mostly urban fantasy with some horror elements is totally demolished now.

>>48780437
Then you just don't know what nWoD is about.

>>48780484
Maybe. But it's more of a bitter, nihilistic, Medieval approach to acceptance that borders on morbid preoccupation, as opposed to a cancer patient feeling okay with moving on.

>>48780533
But those horror elements are often at the forefront. What makes it urban fantasy other than "being in an urban setting with fantastical elements"?

>>48780425
>I don't remember Twilight having blood orgies.

Not remotely the norm in VtR/VtM either, so there ya go.

The sex involves violently fucked to the point of blacking out and continuing to be fucked, that's generally a step beyond what is the norm for mormons. Likewise, the fundamental conflict for Edward as described by Stephenie Meyer when she discussed the dream that inspired the franchise was not "can I love her? but I'm a vampire and I have secrets" but "huh, should I murder her?" Its much easier to be a humanoid parasite than a carnivore.

All other things considered, one must remember that there are many, many more horrific incarnations of vampires than VtM/VtR ones; most leave holes in their dinner dates, and some (like Twilight ones) leave jagged, venom drooling holes.

But yeah, I wouldn't say its "horror" because the primary emphasis is not remotely on terrifying violence, but its probably horror in the Vampire sense.

>>48780573
Because with the exception of only a few splats it's a game heavily built around clique politics where Melissa the Melusine throws a gigantic wobbler because Sam the Slaugh insulted her pet neonate. The WoD talks up horror, doesn't deliver on it with any more enthusiasm than dungeons and dragons does.

>>48780309

>Hell, the book that has given me the most unease wasn't even really "Horror"; it was the scene in House of Leaves where Johnny Truant has a panic attack in the dark back room of the tattoo parlor.

House of Leaves is considered a horror novel by many people. I mean, to be fair it's really more of a post-modern examination of love and obsession than anything else, but people do hype it up as a pretty scary novel.

>Dresden Files is full of horror. I mean, shit, the list of shit Dresden has had to deal with is longer than my arm, and most of it has left emotional and psychic scars. Horror doesn't mean a lack of triumph (that's why most horror movies, even the ones with sequel bait hooks, end in success).

It's full of scary moments, but it's trying to be a hardboiled detective novel first and foremost. That's my point, really. Horror is about trying to create an atmosphere and events that create a sense of unease in people, usually with the garish or the supernatural. It's a similar but different kind of tension than the tension in a mystery, thriller, or adventure, which is why it's so common for the genres to intermingle. I'm not the person you're arguing with where "no triumph = horror". If that were true, a bunch of literary novels would suddenly become horror novels.

>>48780573
>Then you just don't know what nWoD is about.

Its about a toolbox approach to a spooktacular world, not a more "horrifying" version of the owod. Sorry, but you have to deal with the fact that nothing about the nwod is universally more horrifying than owod.

>>48780425

>Wraith's problem is almost entirely that it's too 90s. It's like a grunge album.

That's not a problem as much as an opinion. This is why it can be kind of hard to discuss things with you sometimes, even when you're otherwise on the ball.

>>48780349

The problem with your argument is that Twilight is neither horror, nor fantasy. It's paranormal romance, which has different aims and a different sense of tension than the other two. It uses elements of the two genres, but the real center of the narrative is "Will Bella ever find her true love?"

Such hunger for (you)'s, you would reply to the entire thread if you could.

>>48780611
>Not remotely the norm in VtR/VtM either, so there ya go.
Yeah, it is.
>But yeah, I wouldn't say its "horror" because the primary emphasis is not remotely on terrifying violence, but its probably horror in the Vampire sense.
I agree with the first, but not the last bit. I mean, Humanity is a trait.

>>48780632
So like I said, you don't really know the game. Or personal horror, since "personal horror" would be Melissa the Melusine dealing with the fallout of saving face.

>>48780669
I won't deny House of Leaves is horror; I've just not really seen it "officially" listed that way.
Also, I mean, Dresden really does try to play up the horror. It's as much that as it is Mystery (and mystery and hardboiled detective stories DO have quite a few horror elements to begin with. I mean, when you get right down to it, thrillers ARE horror, it's just that they don't use macabre or grotesque elements to highlight that horror. In arguing with Camilla about "personal horror", I always pointed out that things like the Sopranos kind of highlight just that with scenes where Tony talks to his shrink about being a mobster.

>>48780670
It's a toolbox that is filled with horror elements that encourage a default method of play focusing on horror.

>>48780750
Let me feed your hunger.

>>48780729
>That's not a problem as much as an opinion. This is why it can be kind of hard to discuss things with you sometimes, even when you're otherwise on the ball.
It's an opinion that it's a problem, sure, but Wraith is still very much focused on a 90s worldview, and it's depiction of the Underworld is kind of kitsch and very different from what you'd see today, just like whether you see it as "Captain Planet" or not, Apocalypse really does have a 90s sensibility.

>>48780729

> It's paranormal romance, which has different aims and a different sense of tension than the other two. It uses elements of the two genres, but the real center of the narrative is "Will Bella ever find her true love?"
Good way of putting it; it's not horror, it uses horror.

>>48780781

It appears you are suffering from a "one true way to play" syndrome that cannot be supported by the books.

>>48780853
Except I'm not saying there's one true way to play. I'm literally saying that you could play it as science fiction!

But the books clearly present one INTENDED way of play. It's not the only. It's just the most relevant, and the one that the game was made for.

>>48780293
Further info, the GM hinted that the Path of Mercury could be learned in the city, so that's where I'm going next. In abilities, I pumped up science a bit, so I'm hoping to do some neat tricks with teleportation, conjuration, and focused mind.

>>48780781

>but Wraith is still very much focused on a 90s worldview

You say this a lot, but you base this solely on the aesthetic and the time you read the antagonist book, which was apparently enough to teach you the entire line's worldview, even though you never would have done this for a CofD book. Even when you're right, it never feels like you're never discussing things in good faith, even when it's about things you like.

Aside from certain Heretic factions, there's very little about the game that shows the sort of 90s approach to things that White Wolf does. Most of it is just Dark Fantasy/Horror Fantasy stuff, which if anything belongs to a 30s/40s aesthetic and worldview.

>>48780797

Yeah, I think the best way of looking at whether or not something belongs in a genre (and one important thing to keep in mind that genre is ultimately a marketing tool these days) is to look at the one driving question of the story. This is a big reason why the whole umbrella of speculative fiction can be summed up in "what if?"

>>48781552
>Wraith's a broken system wrapped in nihilism
That's very 90s. Although, yes, aesthetic of "the world is a screaming hellscape crafted from the reformed souls of the damned" is pretty 90s, too. Nobody ever says I'm acting in bad faith when I criticize Masquerade, Requiem, or Ascension...

>>48781815

>That's very 90s. Although, yes, aesthetic of "the world is a screaming hellscape crafted from the reformed souls of the damned" is pretty 90s, too

How do those things specifically belong to the 1990s? Are there any primary sources to those things that give you reason to believe that, or did you already decide something about the setting and then wrap your argument around it? Every time you talk about Wraith, it always sounds like the latter instead of the former.

>Nobody ever says I'm acting in bad faith when I criticize Masquerade, Requiem, or Ascension...

Three reasons why.

1. Those three actually have signs that they were made in the 90s: Werewolf's eco-terrorism themes, Ascension's focus on cutting edge post-modern academic theory, and Masquerade's clear Anne Rice "borrowing". Wraith isn't as clear, yet apparently you figured this out after reading an antagonist book.

2. It at least appears that you've read more than one book of those lines. If not, you're at least better at bullshitting that you do than Wraith.

3. Usually, you just browbeat and stonewall people until they give up arguing with you. I assume after that you declare yourself the winner, and then jump into other conversations to "just say an opinion" so you can stonewall and browbeat them until the cycle repeats. You do this even do this when you're actually right, poisoning the well for future discussion.

You've got a narrative you want to cling to, and you want to be the single authority in the thread that people look to. I can respect that. But don't act all shocked when someone calls you out on it.

You belong in the 90's

>>48782212
But Anne Rice wasn't a 90s thing, and that's not why Masquerade is 90s. It's 90s because it's all about how THE MAN is keeping you down, and fuck the man. And Wraith also has that, in spades. It's built on the attitude of nihilism and grunge. It's the attitude of a Nirvana album. The 90s, especially the part Wraith is from, were all about that kind of disaffected nihilism.
Also, I'm far from an authority, and don't pretend I am.

>>48782369

>It's 90s because it's all about how THE MAN is keeping you down, and fuck the man. And Wraith also has that, in spades.

How, specifically, is that 90s? The 70s had plenty of that in spades, to the point where it was called "The Punk Generation". What makes this so identifiably 90s?

> And Wraith also has that, in spades. It's built on the attitude of nihilism and grunge. It's the attitude of a Nirvana album.

Which Nirvana album? Have you ever actually listened to a Nirvana song that wasn't something you crossed by on the radio? How does the themes of Nirvana's music actually crosses into something like Wraith, a line of which you only read one book of?

>The 90s, especially the part Wraith is from, were all about that kind of disaffected nihilism.

What's your proof for this? The 90s had a lot of very different themes and tones, depending on which part of the mainstream you paid attention to. The 90s were also known for the faux-optimism of the "End of History", for example.

You're stonewalling again.

>Also, I'm far from an authority, and don't pretend I am.

Cut the faux-modest crap. You post like you think you're the smartest person in the room, and when no one acknowledges that you are, or wants to take the topic to something you don't care about, you cry and stamp your feet until you get your way. It's just like how you dump all of your homebrew, because you don't actually want improvement, you just want praise. Your ego only gets worse when you're actually right about something.

who cares how 90 a settings is. The 90s were cool shut up, suck my dick.

>>48782808
Man, calm down. You are getting way too worked up over "this game is pretty 90s"

>>48782825
The 90s sucked

>>48776108
I think it's finally done. Good. I was tired of his constant destruction of the ChroD games for no valid reason

>>48782893
I think you mean to say the 90s were Radical.

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REAL CHANGELING HOURS SMASH THAT MOTHER FUCKING PLEDGE BUTTON

>>48785125
... what?

The White Wolf website is so deliciously 90s

just got Dark Ages 20th in the mail. clan art is great. any advice for a campaign?

>>48786631
Play VtR instead

>>48786790
why?

>>48786631
>>48786873

VtR has better rules, but from a setting standpoint Dark Ages Vampire (which stems off Masquerade) is as good as Masquerade can ever get; it's a dope game. Best way to handle a new chronicle is to toss your motley new PCs into Eastern Europe and have them choose a side in the war between the Tremere and the Tzimisce, which gives you easy new session ideas, some straightforward politics, and the benefits of fucking around in Draculand.

>>48786919
how viable would it be to play a Dark Ages campaign into Masquerade?

>>48787089

How good are you at knowing the entire history of Europe from 1200 through today? What about your players?

Alternatively, are you narratively comfortable timeskipping from DA to modern nights and leaving the middle period to flashbacks and vagueness?

>>48787089
Many have tried, few succeeded.

>>48787089
>>48787120
He means "how hard would it be to play a Dark Ages campaign in Requiem's rules set"

Probably not that difficult. Even easier if you're willing to make new Bloodlines to represent the Dark Ages clans, though that's not something I'd recommend for a new player. There's also the Vampire Translation Guide, but that's 1e, so you'd then have to port *that* to 2e.

Or you could just use the Requiem Clans mechanically, but treat them as belonging to the Masquerade Clans as families.

Or you could just deal with the fact that the mechanics of Masquerade aren't that great and play it as-is. But "VtR 2e using homebrewed Bloodlines-as-Clans in the Dark Ages setting" would probably be the ideal.

>>48787445
no I meant a campaign where the characters age into the modern nights

>>48787198
>>48787120
how about a campaign where the characters they use in Dark Ages become the villians in the Masquerade campaign? I think that might be fun for players

So, wait, Geckopirateship finally got himself banned? Anyone know which topic finally had the mods bring the smack down on him? I want to see just how he finally crossed the line.

>>48787545

He asked to be permabanned but apparentky changed his mind and is back to shitposting.

>>48787502
>no I meant a campaign where the characters age into the modern nights
Oh. Those are always difficult, since they'd have like a thousand years of growth and change. Without torpor, they'd have gone through so many experiences they'd practically be different characters.

>>48787545
Probably bitching about Beast despite not even reading it.

>>48787559
wompwomp

>>48787559
Where did he ask that? And why? I always thought he was kind of a dimwit, but that's a bit extreme even for him.

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>>48786919
>VtR has better rules, but from a setting standpoint Dark Ages Vampire (which stems off Masquerade) is as good as Masquerade can ever get; it's a dope game.
this. dark ages vampire was always pretty much the best vampire got in owod.

>>48787089
>how viable would it be to play a Dark Ages campaign into Masquerade?
I don't see why not if you're willing to cover large swaths of time. after all, it would be interesting to see how vampires actually came to follow the masquerade properly because I doubt some methuselah vampires signing the agreement made everyone comply.

>>48787588

He was shitposting about how much he hates Pronethean and yelled about "Promethean apologists" until a moderator told him to shit the fuck up. Then he posted forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/general/trouble-tickets/949894-how-to-delete-my-account and is now back to yelling about Promethean.

>>48787653
>yelled about "Promethean apologists"
Oh God, what.
Tell me more of this drama, there's only a few posts left in this thread anyway.

>>48787698

forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/promethean-the-created-aa/943084-alchemist-rant

>>48787713
>Alchemist rant
Oh, of course. Those pure beautiful beloved cinnamon roll alchemists are being unfairly persecuted? I don't generally dabble in racist /pol/ memery, but I feel "those alchemists dindunnuffin" is going to be appropriate...

>>48787713
Surprised it's from PenDragon...
>Now I get that this book is called Promethean, not Alchemist, and that the Created are the core focus. I also get that painting a picture of Prommies being buddy-buddy with Alchemists flies in the face of the whole isolationist theme. But does the book really need to flaunt that? Does it really need to commit word count to shutting down any possibility of non-antagonistic Alchemists. It probably wouldn't bother me as much if the book wasn't so outright about the exclusion. Like, if the text just said, "there are less extreme Alchemists, but this is the Antagonists section so we're going to focus on the ones who are definitive villain material." That, in my eyes, would be a better handling that saying outright that "sane" alchemists never target Prometheans.

He literally quotes the part where they do just that...
>Sane, rational, and cautious alchemists are unlikely to come into a Promethean story, however. Because they are more interested in knowledge than power, they are generally content with lesser alchemical workings and don’t have the same hunger for Pyros and Vitriol as the mad alchemists described here. [...] These cautious alchemists rarely enter into the lives of Prometheans, and when they do, it’s usually because the Prometheans sought them out, hoping for guidance

>Alchemists who don’t hunt the Created still form small cells and larger organizations, but since they are likely to avoid Prometheans, they aren’t included.

>All alchemy — even the sane and cautious alchemy of those who avoid the Created — carries with it a touch of transhumanism. All alchemists want to expand what it means to be human, even if they don’t reject it entirely.

Like... the book is practically going out of it's way to say #NotAllH̶e̶r̶o̶e̶sAlchemists...

>>48785148
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/real-nigga-hours

Step outside /tg/ every once in a while fampai

>>48787849

Pen was reasonable. Gecko was retarded.

>>48787922
Reasonable, sure (that's why I was surprised it was him), but it's a weird complaint, considering they DO say "the stuff in this section is the antagonistic villain Alchemists".

How do alchemists just naturally generate Pyros, even Proms don't do that

>>48788048

Prometheans do that, though.

>>48788118
No they don't. Various triggers reactions in them; sunrise, thunderstorms, people, sleeping next to their element, electricity

But they don't just get Pyros for nothing.

>>48788132
I'd say "literally just the revolution of the planet" is pretty much naturally generating Pyros. Alchemists are just slower about it.

>>48788674

نوي تار

>>48777032
It is not difficult to replicate this in real life, take a late era german suit of quality hardened steel armour, no sword or spear is going to punch through that, but the human body inside is still going to be battered given time and repeated impacts. The rules also state that whenever you reduce lethal damage to 0 or less with armour, you still take 1 bashing.