Is this the correct way to Chaotic Neutral?

Nope, Luffy is CG as fuck

>>48744202
I feel like some who CG should be a little against, staging a massive jailbreak

>>48744309
Jails are a lawful organization, not necessarily a good organization. When an organization like the World Government, which is more or less LE owns the jail it may not be an evil act to break out the prisoners.

That being said many of the prisoners in Impel Down were evil, but from a chaotic perspective it may still not be an evil act if you consider the authority of the government to imprison people to be illegitimate.

Or you could be like Luffy and not really think things through, but still go out of your way to help people.

>>48744095
Isn't he Neutral Good? He is a pirate after all; he is living that lifestyle. He also just so happens to be a good-ish person in the meantime.

>>48744575
No, he's very CG.
He's absolutely good because he at least tries to do the right thing, but he doesn't think about 99% of his actions before doing the thing; hence chaotic.

>>48744575
He's literally at war with everything that can be considered a government in his vicinity, and wants to be the greatest criminal ever. He's incredibly chaotic.

>>48744309
the one where the warden is a devil in SS clothing?

Don't think so.

Incidentally the above is why One Piece is too infantile even for anime.

>>48744661
Magellan is Lawful Good, though.

>>48744095
>the

There's no one way to do any alignment. They all over a broad range of archetypes and variations thereof.

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No, this is.

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>>48744095
Luffy is Chaotic Good.

I'd say this is a pretty good way to Chaotic Neutral.

>>48744661
Magellan is a good guy though. He even locked up the previous warden because he was going around killing criminals for shits and giggles

>>48744734
I keep telling myself to watch this shit but I never do

>>48744734
Rick is CE done right.

In Rick's eyes, existence is a joke, so he like views himself as TN. By D&D standards though, he willingly engages in assault, murder, theft and slavery wholesale. Just because he cares about his friends and family does not make him N.

>>48744661
Magellan is LN. Despite appearances, he's one of the least villainous villains in the show.

There are a great many reasons to dislike One Piece, but basing your stance against it on the platform of childishness is fairly poor form, since it never claims to be anything else and in fact runs completely apologetically with that very sense of whimsy and noncomplexity that oft makes it seem childish. It's basically like attacking Star Trek for being too sci-fi.

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>>48744095
>Playing good alignment

>>48744734
Are you serious? Rick is chaotic evil.

Just because he sort of gives a damn about the people close to him doesn't make him good, or even neutral.

>>48744640
>and wants to be the greatest criminal ever.
He believes that no body can take away his freedom. He wants to be the freest man in the world. That doesn't seem inherently chaotic to me. He's following his own code

>>48744724
Naaaah, I'd put him at straight neutral.
Literally just does what gets him his.

>>48744787

This

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>>48744787
So than you're saying your average person is chaotic evil as Rick is way more relatable than fucking Luffy.

>>48744857
>He believes that no body can take away his freedom
>He's following his own code

I'm pretty sure D&D literally says this when describing a Chaotic Good character.

>>48744891

Wait what? Are you trying to make some kind of edgelord statement "All humanity is CE?"

>>48744891
>the average person happily engages in murder, assault, burglary, robbery, etc
Not everyone lives in fucking Rio you tard.

>>48744891
I'm pretty sure your average person doesn't do all that terrbile shit Rick does

>>48744095
Trick question, Chaotic Neutral has no correct way.

>>48744913
I think he's just saying Rick is a more relatable person. Rick is not trying to save anybody, he's just trying to find meaning to his shitty existence and gets wrapped up in responsibilities he does not want.

>>48744863
That is not True Neutral, True Neutral is all about balance. As you have said, he is entirely about his own and sees no problem with betraying anybody as long as he gets his.

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>>48744923
What kind of chorboy are you? Like you haven't done at least one of those things?

I mean I'm not saying your life has to be grand theft auto but I think everyone here on 4chan of all places has spent at least a few years in a minimum security prison.

>>48744857
A code is, by definition, strictly defined. Luffy's idea of freedom is just whatever whim happens to strike him at any given moment, be it saving your life, eating your dinner, or kicking your ass.

>>48744895
If someone actually has a real personal code, then that's a lawful quality. Look at Zoro, he's quite willing to do things that he doesn't want to, or that don't benefit him in any way because he feels compelled by his personal honor.
For example, when Luffy and Usopp were fighting over Going Merry, Luffy just wants to forgive Usopp and be on their way, but Zoro insists that Usopp must be the one to apologize first, and threatens to leave the crew if he doesn't. Two very chaotic and lawful approaches, respectively.

Alignments.Don't.Work.Outside.D.&.Fucking.D

>>48744938

No...I'm pretty sure he's trying to say more than that.

Or at least trying to twist things into some form of insult.

>>48744095
Real question is whether Luffy is a libertarian superhero

>>48744960
>everyone on 4chan has spent at least a few years in the joint
Holy shit dude, do you really think anyone here actually goes out and does anything? At worst I'll give you that most people here have pirated a movie, or especially on /tg/, a rulebook. But most humans have not engaged in assault, murder or slavery.


Seriously, where the fuck am I?

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>>48744995
Luffy never mentions mu'h private property or weed bro so no.

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>>48744095
>tfw the only CN charachters are Homura, and TLG.
ffs

>>48744995
He's a libertarian nightmare, he has no respect for the NAP

>>48744975
>If someone actually has a real personal code, then that's a lawful quality

No it's not. It's a chaotic quality. Because they are saying "Fuck society I play by my own rules."

>>48744999

Dude you got baited. Ignore the troll.

>>48744984

Yes they do. It all depends on how "complicated" you want your character to be.

>>48744975
>For example, when Luffy and Usopp were fighting over Going Merry, Luffy just wants to forgive Usopp and be on their way, but Zoro insists that Usopp must be the one to apologize first, and threatens to leave the crew if he doesn't. Two very chaotic and lawful approaches, respectively.

> Zoro insists that Usopp must be the one to apologize first, and threatens to leave the crew if he doesn't.

That was such a good moment, wasn't it? I haven't read One Piece, nor consumed any Japanese fiction, in a while but I remember how great of a scene that was.

>>48744975
>If someone actually has a real personal code, then that's a lawful quality
My personal code is that if I murder you, I've earned the right to take all your shit, burn down your house and rape your wife.

How lawful am I?

>>48745025
>>48745011
>>48744995

/pol/ plz leave

>>48745038
Playing by the rules, whether they're society's rules or your own, is lawful.

Chaotic characters don't play by ANYONE'S rules, including their own. They are perfectly willing to contradict themselves if that's how they feel.

>>48744960
Why would you think that? I mean, you haven't.

>>48745088
>Chaotic characters don't play by ANYONE'S rules, including their own. They are perfectly willing to contradict themselves if that's how they feel

Ok, dude, where are you pulling this from? Because from what I can tell you are pulling it out of your ass.

In the source material for where Chaotic Good comes from it pretty much says "personal code, personal freedom, fuck society, fuck haters"

>>48744995
He has a recreational experimental warship he got looting sky indians.
He is ancap as fuck.

>>48745153

see

>>48745079

>>48744095

Nah, if you want a CN pirate, use Jack Sparrow as reference. Luffy is a CG pirate.

>>48745088
>>48745130
I think that there's some confusion here over what exactly constitutes a "personal code". The idea of having a rigid set of beliefs that you hold yourself to is a lawful concept. This is why D&D Monks have to be lawful. Living according to what you think is right, without a concrete set of rules is a chaotic concept. Both could be interpreted as following some kind of personal code, since you're deciding what is right for yourself.

For example, characters like Superman and Batman who strictly follow a no killing rule are following a lawful idea. Someone like Luffy who just looks at whatever's in front of him and does whatever feels like the right thing to do are more chaotic.

>>48745130
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm

>A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

>A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

>>48745038

If you have a strict personal code of conduct that covers a lot of areas in life and you follow regardless of how you feel about it, that's Lawful.

If you just have some minor personal thing like "I never kill kids", while technically Lawful that's not enough IMO to tip a Chaotic character into neutral or lawful territory, if they're generally Chaotic in other areas.


The thing is that there's a blurry line between personal codes and personal motives. Generally I'd say the distinction comes down to what I said in the first paragraph: if it's a code you follow at all times, like it or not, then it's lawful. If it's a personal inclination (you don't like doing something, and never will) that's not really a code, and isn't lawful.


>>48745072

Lawful Evil, provided you legit believe you've "earned the right". Earning things and having the right to things are inherently Lawful.

>>48745226

> D&D Monks have to be lawful

Not in 5e and thank god to be honest. There should be plenty of room for the crazy asshole martial artist.

Also Superman and Batman are both pretty nicely synergized with the law hence lawful, mileage may vary depending on the comic plz don't bring US comics into this they can be so clusterfucky in terms of establishing what a character is.

>>48745244
>Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

what is a character with a strong personal code that compels them to always lie, break their promises, defy authority, dispute traditions and let people who fall short of their duties off the hook?

>>48745244

>A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

How is this not Luffy to the Will of T.

>>48745330
Dead.

>>48745330

Lawful Neutral cuz they dedicated to the dgaf

>>48745330

If it's that specifically "it is lawful for me to act chaotic" the character is the product of a bored douchebag contrarian trying to be funny.

If the character has a ton of chaotic behavior but an honor system of sorts like you find in ye olde thieves' guild, they're usually neutral.

>>48744891
>pokeshitter has bad opinions

Am I supposed to be shocked?

>>48745330
A deranged lunatic, or just a shitty nonsense character I'm not allowing at my table.

If it's really a "strong personal code", then the character is compelled to follow the code even when it doesn't benefit him.

>Character tells his employer he hasn't completed his assigned task, even though he has, and costs himself his earned payoff

Seriously fuck off with that shit.

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example of true CN

>>48745354
Luffy isn't necessarily benevolent. He'll specifically withhold his assistance from people who aren't his friends or haven't earned his respect, like when he first met Coby and Vivi.

>>48745070
Luffy vs Usopp is what you want party conflict to be.

>>48745058
Even saturday morning cartoons are too complicated for D&D alignments.

>>48745464
Yeah, Luffy helps people based on whether or not they're a friend of his. He didn't beat up Buggy for the people, he did it for the dog. He didn't beat up Arlong for the village, he did it for Nami. He didn't save a coubtry because it was the right thing to do, he saved it because it was Vivi's country. He didn't declare war on the entire world because it was a corrupt regime, he did it for Robin.

>>48745540

O-oh...you're a troll too...Imma stop responding to you now...

>>48745593
Plus he's specifically said he doesn't want to be a hero because in his words "a hero is someone who shares his food and I don't want to do that."

>>48745464
>>48745593

You know what, good point I never noticed that.

Yeah he would be CN then.

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>>48744661
>>48744813
Yea, I've never understood people who say that One Piece seems too childish. It's quite clearly going for a specific theme of high adventure. Far better than the forced edgyness that most Shonen try and get.

And anyone who says that One Piece can't be dark needs to go watch Movie 6. Holy fuck the villain and plot in that movie.

>>48745654
Pretty sure most of the movies arent cannon. Also didnt luffy fucking murder one movie villain?

>>48745615
Plus he doesn't like killing his enemies because he believe leaving them alive to be the crueler fate and is perfectly willing to let bygones be bygones with some pretty big pieces of shit that aren't named Blackbeard.

>>48745623
granted Luffy has ridiculously arbitrary standards on who he befriends. he helped brook because Brook is a cool skeleton, and he decided he liked Bellamy for no reason other than he recognized him from before

>>48745713

Yup that CN alright

>>48745675
Yes, he did. That one. Straight up punched to death, not even any cruel mercy.

There's also another fucker he knocked into a typhoon but that wasn't as personal.

>>48744095
He's of any alignment except evil depending on the plot and episode. Try not to bring D&D to outside D&D material, doesn't work like that.

>>48745727
Except he's Good and all his deeds are Good

>>48745746

Nah, the alignments are good so long as you broad strokes it.

>>48745713
He hid the slave tattoo on a giant snake womans back in the middle of a fight just because he knew it'd be shameful for the other amazons to see. He didn't even know how shameful, just that the sisters went out of their way to hide their backs.

>>48744575
He's a very weird Pirate. Nami comments on it early on.

>>48745756

Well yah but that's because the show isn't interested in the moral quandaries of following a lifestyle that focuses on prioritizing your friends and people you like above all else.

>>48745780
For that show, please watch Hunter X Hunter.

>>48745746
he has (relatively) consistent morals and motivations. Alignment is meant to serve as a mean indicator of a character's actions, not a hard and fast barrier preventing them from ever acting any other way

A character who always acts one way is a flat, boring character and that goes for both D&D and not D&D

>>48745675
>>48745731
I mean, given the tone of that movie, can you blame him?

Beyond that, I know it's not canon, but it's still a movie that's within the framework the show has created that is fucking horrifying.

Like, the whole scene with the kid and Zoro is amazing.

>>48745780
Hey, you should go watch Movie 6. It deals with the absolute logical extension of valuing your friendship above all else.

>>48745852
Most characters that change slightly their alignment in D&D lose their powers forever, so yeah, I prefer flat than useless.

>>48746196
His point is that characters acting out of alignment in certain situations isn't justification for them to change alignment, so long as their overall actions reflect their primary alignment.

A LG character who occasionally gets stupid about enforcing the law to the detriment of others doesn't become LN, so long as those issues aren't a huge deal.

>>48746156
I'm surprised Oda didn't go more into that with Gekko Moria considering what the man was doing.

>>48746305
Yea, I wondered about that.as well. I figure either he just didn't want to focus on it too much, or that he has some future plans for the character.

>>48746196
okay first of all
>most characters
no, that's paladins
that's literally just paladins
most classes either have no alignment restrictions, or only have them in archaic editions which got updated because everyone agreed it's fucking dumb and hampers roleplaying instead of improving it.

secondly, one act is not enough for an alignment change. A NG healer who provides her services for free but decides to charge an ex-lover out of spite doesn't immediately fall to TN. It's when actions like that become the norm that an alignment change is in order.

You can tell these people who get autistic about discussing alignments outside of D&D have either never actually played D&D or are just awful roleplayers, because they default to this shitty flanderized version of alignments they got from PALADIN FALLS threads. Once you realize they're only as inflexible and restrictive as you make them, they're easy to apply to fictional characters in other heroic fantasy settings.

>>48745774
Not to mention how pissed he got seeing the Celestial dragon slave get treated. Luffy isn't a super hero but you don't have to willing get involved against every evil act to be good. Otherwise all the good people would be dead from getting in over their head.

>>48746375
I definitely get the feeling that the whole zombie plan was born in trauma, but that he's been at it for so long and gotten so complacent that he's forgotten the real reason he started.

>>48744950
True Neutral is also people who don't particularly lean towards any of the extremes.

He's pretty TN.

>>48746459
>no, that's paladins
And monks, and clerics and other classes, anon, you should check the manuals

>>48746608
D&D is not 3.5

>>48746608
not in 5e, now fuck off

>>48744095

One Piece's whole thing is about branded criminals doing the right thing even when the world says they're wrong. That's definitively CG. But Luffy's speech about how he doesn't care about right or wrong, and if given the option to share a feast with the people like a hero or hoard it for himself, he'd hoard it with his friends. That's definitively CN.

Part of what's exciting about OP is that there's a moral tension that isn't so edgy-nihilistic like other shonen likes to do, but instead takes a wacky cartoonish approach by exaggerating everything to extremes. Which in turn means the minor nuance of morality that makes the series interesting is so exaggerated that it's hard to pin.

>>48746680
Yet his deeds are always Good, D&D alignments aren't dictated by wath the character thinks of himself, but what Gods think the character is. A character might be Goody McPerfect but if he is helping, unknowingly, the evil guy...he's Evil too.

>>48746708
But that's fucking wrong.

>>48746708

nice way of telling us you haven't actually read it friend

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Chaotic Neutral right here

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>>48746659
>5e
>Not playing Pathfinder or expanding upon 3.5 with D&D Wiki

>>48744522
This man speaks truth

>>48744852
I'd say rick is more neutral. he does good and bad things but the most important thing to remember is he's always out for number 1. He doesn't go out of his way to do bad things for any purpose other than selfishnes, but if he has to he just does it, and he'd just as quicky raise a family of orphans if it got him what he needed.

>>48744309
>good
>jailbreak

That's lawful at best, and whoever was sprung was only given the opportunity after personal bonding.

>>48744784
watch back to the future, then imagine if preening neo-SJWs and anarcho-capitalists wrote it, and you have the basic formula.
It's entertaining, but...

>oh I don't care about anyone
>oh I really hold these strong subjective opinions
>oh whatever you do is right so long as the outcome benefits this idea of a "greater good"

>>48751227
What?

I'm not sure exactly how you're critiquing the show.

What do SJWs have to do with it?

>>48751227
What are you on about? You seem to missing the point.

>>48751666
Didn't you hear? SJWs are eeeeverywhere.

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>>48744734
>>48751198
>>48744852
>>48744787
>>48744891
>>48744929
>>48744938
Rick is beyond alignment bullshit.

>>48744863
I would say he's a good example of CN: a hedonist with a bit of a love for gold who still says true to himself and keeps his word (mostly).

>>48746470
I thought he hated the Celestial Dragons because of what happened with Sabo. It retroactively makes that scene a thousand times better.

>>48754511

oda sure is good at totally making shit up as he goes forward, isn't he?

>>48744852
There was a huge thread discussing Rick's alignment some days ago, check the archive it's a good read.

>>48744844
>using a 3x3 alignment system

>>48753325
That's an extremely chaotic neutral philosophy, right there.

>>48744095
He is the good-est, chaotic-est mofo around, no contest.

>>48744891
How relatable someone is depends predominantly on what the writers were going for.

One Piece is not meant to be an exercise in navel gazing. Can you imagine a big scene in One Piece in which NIN's Hurt plays in the background?

Luffy is not meant to be relatable, he's basically just a force of nature. Rick is someone who is frequently referred to as depressed, flawed, and lonely.

You are not going to find any trends between someone being relatable and their DnD alignment.

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This would be an example of a Chaotic Neutral.

>>48746375
moria is dead.

>>48754571
implying Oda isn't the greatest mastermind

>>48744724
>He did
>had a helmet and a shield and full body armour against a dude with a sword

Even the Japanese would be like: "Why don't you just execute the dude the regular way?"

>>48746608


Just checked to the SRD to be sure.

even in 3.5 monks don't lose any of their powers they just can't gain more monk levels unless they become lawful again, same deal with Bards and becoming lawful.
Barbarians lose rage, but keep everything else if they become lawful.

Clerics have to shift two steps of their god to lose their powers.
and lastly Druids only lose their's if they're not partialy neutral

>>48745774
To be fair, that was a scenario where he had pretty much no ill-will towards the sisters; he certainly didn't mind fighting, but that's because he likes fighting. He doesn't really register that any physical injuries that aren't life-threatening still count as "getting hurt," since that was basically his entire childhood, but emotional harm is something he understands as "hurting" someone.
In his mind, he didn't really want to hurt them, he just wanted to beat them up.

>>48756753
I don't understand this post.
Ser Egen was fighting in heavy ornate armor with a gigantic oaken shield and a sword that was longer than he was accustom to using. He also was only experienced in tourney fighting.

It should be no surprise that a seasoned mercenary like bronn would be able to tire him out quickly and kill him.

>>48744522
>if you consider the authority of the government to imprison people to be illegitimate
That feels like the sort of rationale that a Lawful character would use. Or at the very least, the sort of argument that a Chaotic character wouldn't care about. "Who cares if it's legitimate or not, it's wrong!" feels like an iconic CG utterance to me.

>>48756287
This.

>>48745226
>For example, characters like Superman and Batman who strictly follow a no killing rule are following a lawful idea
Batman has a strict no-killing rule, as in "never kill, ever".
Superman's rule is "killing is bad and wrong and morally reprehensible, but if not killing one murderer is going to lead to lots of innocent people being killed, then so be it."
People seem to forget that in the comics, Superman killed not one but three Kryptonians. He executed Zod, Faora and Jax-Ur with kryptonite because they had gleefully murdered all the humans on their universe's Earth, and were planning to do it again with Superman's Earth. No one but Superman was in a position to stop them, and since they were just as powerful and resilient as Superman, it needed to be a permanent solution. Also, Doomsday.

>>48757185
So you were wrong and the other anon was right?

>>48749627
Fuck now I gotta watch it again