Gender roles in traditional games

>>48688936

Are you familiar with Old World of Darkness? Particularly Werewolf: The Apocolypse?

One of the Tribes is the all Female Tribe called Black Furies. The only way they have males is if they are Metis (i.e. they are inbreed children of two full werewolves fucking which is akin to incest) mostly because they are sterile and can't have children but that's a way you can have a male Black Furie.

>>48688936
The thing about Amazons is that they are, as a rule, a female-dominated society. A male isn't equal to a female - in fact, the reason most Amazon societies are formed is from refugees or reactionaries from a highly mysoginistic society.

If you have a male being equal in an Amazon society, that society isn't an Amazon society. It's just a matriarchy.

I like enforced gender roles, but also believe exceptions should exist. Exceptions exist because rules exist. Player characters can always be exceptions, as they are the extraordinary ones.

>>48675892

Read some of the ideas in thus thread

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>>48688936
It's possible to accept cultural values without being a part of that culture. Other than that, you're modifying the assumptions of a culture for the sake of justification. If you want an Amazon-esque man, just have it be an allied tribe that imitates them out of respect/fear.

This is just bait so that we have another -4 strength thread anyways, so this whole post is meaningless.

>>48688936
Doesn't bother me at all. Constraints help define/narrow down a setting.

>For example, what if one of my players wanted to roleplay an ambiguous male character who was reared by an Amazonian tribe.

Then you house-rule it.

>>48688996
Depending on the edition, this is because their Totem literally wouldn't take you unless you had a uterus. Same reason the Talons wouldn't take a human born. Or a Wendigo white boy.

>>48688936
I get it if it's say, a cultist of Lilith, where there's someone at the top who could explicitly veto a character.
As for Amazons, I kinda agree that a male could fill their warrior archetype (since its just aggressive archery), but would be rejected from their society AND would likely have to come from outside.

>>48688936
Why even make an Amazon class? Wouldn't that just be a barbarian from a warlike female-centric culture?

>>48688936
>Of course, the GM can just house-rule any such restrictions right out the door, but I don't see why rulebooks need to go out of their way to establish these kinds of barriers to roleplaying in the first place.
Generally speaking, the writers of the rulebook are trying to create a world with its own rules in it, and as such, it is up to them to place definitions and boundaries on things. In your example, the Amazonian tribe rejecting males says a lot about them and their culture and how they view the genders.

>There's nothing necessarily stopping a biological man from understanding and embracing the Amazons' cultural values.
Except he wouldn't be embraced by by the Amazons. He'd be shunned or killed. At any rate, he wouldn't be an Amazon.

But as you point out, it's a moot point: the GM is the final arbiter in the matter, and can let the player have his male Amazon.

>>48689097
Why make a barbarian class? Wouldn't that just be a really angry fighter?

>>48689097
>Why even make an Amazon class?

Some players may like the statistical / skill archetype and the culture that goes along with it. And sometimes, players just want to do something unconventional for the sake of keeping the game fresh.

The point is that the culture doesn't necessarily have to preclude characters based on gender. Amazons may be willing to accept men who reject patriarchal societies and choose to live among them instead. It may even be flattering.

Of course, converse societal rules could also be applied. The concept of female characters disguising or passing themselves off as men isn't unheard of.

>>48688936
Every limit you put in place should serve some kind of greater purpose. Enforced gender roles can serve the purpose of characterizing a society, but I just don't see what going "penis=no Amazon" is supposed to add, and I think your point about physical gender is salient. Unless you're specifically trying to make them chauvinistic and intolerant, then the only justification for it is "muh mythology," which is an even bigger and more hypocritical copout than muh realism

>>48689252
It all sounds like a white guy who is a weeaboo thinking "some day my knowledge and appreciation of Japanese anime will make me a real Japanese person."

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>>48688936
> Gender roles in traditional games

>>48689194
>Except he wouldn't be embraced by by the Amazons. He'd be shunned or killed.

I don't think this would be the case. If you have a society that genuinely believes the female gender to be superior in some or all regards, and there are men willing to cast aside their masculinity to embrace this society's ways, then wouldn't that be the ultimate validation of female superiority? Seems to me the Amazons would embrace this, if only to spite neighboring patriarchal societies.

>>48688936
Your interest in bending gender and historical gaming stereotypes would be impressive, if you weren't using it as an in to get access to more weapon and fighting feats at level 1.

>>48689355
>female gender
why is it gender and not sex, other than tumblr?

>>48689281
>but I just don't see what going "penis=no Amazon" is supposed to add
That Amazons are an insular, exclusionary group that reject anything with a penis upfront, even if it's "one of the good ones," based on a fear of men.

And there's really no problem with fictional characters being intolerant because they're fictional. In fact, creating a setting devoid of intolerance is pretty unrealistic unless you're writing some kind of utopia or something.

>>48689321
Pretty much this. This is on par with "Why can't Black Panther be a white dude" or "Why can't Apache Chief be a soccer mom who just found out she has a Native American ancestor somewhere in her family tree?"

>>48689355
>I don't think this would be the case.
Well, you're welcome to your own interpretation, but if the book says "men can't be Amazons" then that's exactly the case. Men can't be Amazons because those that try are either rejected or murdered. None are accepted according to the books.

Again, moot point: when it's your table you can have your thoughts and do what you want with them. But on the flip side of this, it's their book and they get to have their thoughts published in it.

I suppose, ultimately, you have to accept that other people have ideas about things and move on, especially when their ideas have no real effect on you (since, again, you can just play the game however you want).

>>48689392
I totally agree, but again there needs to be an actual point to it. Way too many people don't bother thinking through this shit and autistically cling to overly narrow definitions of things for the sake of autism. I don't see it too much with Amazons, but there's plenty of other examples, like female knights

>>48689443
>"But those are the rules"

That's not the point. The debate is whether or not these rules enhance or hamper the roleplaying experience. They certainly limit the degree of choice available to the player, which as stated in the OP strains the creative process. So why add them at all?

>>48689754
>limit the degree of choice available [...] strains the creative process
Maybe if you're shit.

>>48689754
>So why add them at all?
Because is the path that leads to calling a race of purple elephant-men "orcs", orange otter-men "elves", giant insect monsters "dragons" and so on and so forth. Why use words if you can't be bothered to stick to their definitions?

>>48689754
There's no debate.

You think fictional characters would act one way.

Other people think fictional characters would act another.

Ultimately, they act however the people controlling them say they act.

>>48689770
There's a difference. Good rules force you to be creative. They create interesting challenges and conflicts that wouldn't exist otherwise. Bad rules exist for the sake of existing. Good rules can be explained and justified. Bad rules can only be rationalized with false dilemma bullshit like >>48689822.

>>48689030
>This is just bait so that we have another -4 strength thread anyways, so this whole post is meaningless.
Would a male amazon have -4 str compared to the other amazons?

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>>48688936
>people responding to this seriously
Have you ever seen a meme before you dip?

>>48689097
>>48689252
>Amazon class
Never seen anything like this come to think of it

>>48690108
Yes

>>48690101
>Good rules force you to be creative. They create interesting challenges and conflicts that wouldn't exist otherwise.
>Good rules can be explained and justified.
Oh, you mean rules like "all Amazons have vaginas, no exceptions"?

>>48689754
Look those the chain of replies.

>>48689194 makes two points: one about why they would include them (which is what you falsely claim the debate is about) and one speculating how fictional characters would act.

The "real debate" was ignored by the replies (see >>48689355) and instead replies focused on saying "no I think fictional characters would act this way."

And not just fictional characters, but fictional characters in a hypothetical book.

>>48690125
>>48690108
The best baits are the ones that don't look like bait. But yeah, this could almost be a cunning ploy that a player saw some sweet skills and weapons a race or gender-specific class has and try to munchkin their way into getting them, and countering that the GM's being a bigot for not allowing it.

>>48689441
Black Panther was a white dude at one point. Well, technically he was half black, but pale enough that he looked white. Also Jewish.

>>48688996
Not OP, but I've heard about these before in some /tg/ story where a person wanted to play a trans Black Fury. Can't recall if it was just transgender or transsexual, but either way it didn't work and they quit all assmad.

>>48690255
MtF or FtM? I've veto the former, but the latter could be interesting. FtMs are underappreciated and generally cool dudes in real life.

>>48690255
>not playing as a transfat wolf soul werediaper
Literally shaking my head side to side.

>>48690314
A friend's dad (in before >dad) is FtM and I didn't have a clue until they told me. It was a pretty damn thorough job. They looked like the dad from Transformers!
For the most part a pretty cool person, aside from the fact that they are hyper-conservative. Like, at the point where they're a walking caricature aside from the trans stuff.
I've never really asked if they appreciate the irony.

>>48690314
Considering how salty they were, I'm assuming it was MtF, not to put down the MtFs who are actually pretty chill and not cunts, either that or the vague 'trans' that's popular with the noisy bitchy tumblr crowd.

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>>48688936
>Player Reference
Which one? Otherwise you're lying and should shut the fuck up.

And Ward was better. Here's your (you)

>>48689355

The thing is, he would be a freak.

It would be like a black man claiming to be part of the Aryan race. His mere existence would be a joke. Imagine a Caucasian dressing up as a Chinese Mandarian and claiming to be the descendant of Qin Shihuang.

The whole idea is completely vile and offensive.

>>48689306
No weeb in the modern day even remotely thinks that.

>>48688936
In politics they say "the exception becomes the rule." Temporary emergency measures become permanent, actions that were supposed to be rare become common, and freak outlying events become precedents. It's the same way in RPGs. Everybody plays against type until the types are turned upside-down. There are no evil drow anymore, only Drizzt clones. So I can totally see why a game designer might draw a line and say something like "drow are evil, dwarves and elves hate each other, and amazons are women. There may be exceptions in the game world, but you can't play one."

>>48688936
Dude, that's the definition of an Amazon. "Guys, why do firefighters have to fight fires? Can't they have guns instead and hunt criminals? And have like, different colored uniforms and vechicles? Wouldn't that be cool?"

>>48688936
After discussion with my group and a lot of thought, I eventually came to the conclusion that restraints based on gender usually don't add enough to the setting to bother enforcing them. Unless I think the limitation would make for a legitimately interesting plot thread or character background, I could not care less what the book says about gender.
As a rule, I keep things as gender neutral as possible if I'm dealing with a new player, at least until I can confirm that they're not batshit crazy. I never know if somebody's going to turn out to be a tumblr-tier SJW or an /r9k/-tier fedora, and I've had too many bad experiences with randos on both sides to risk it.

Trigger warning: facts

Women are submissive to men by nature. This is for the best because men are better at making rational decisions and are naturally stronger, being the hunters, the warriors, and the leaders, while the women evolved gor a different role.

>>48692613
>gets triggered by people discussing a fantasy world and so must present THE MOST CORRECT FACTS
>then mocks people who get triggered
Neat.

>>48688936
It depends on a lot of things, many of which are based on the setting. In Adventurer, Conqueror, King System the demi-humans have unique classes. Many of this can just be played by humans or other demi-humans with a simple reflavoring. Some however, absolutely can't be. The Thrassian Gladiator is cool as hell, but it is only for the lizard men of the setting, and can't be reflavoring because it all involves improving the existing racial abilities of the lizards: thicker scales, more dangerous claws and bite, eventually breathing underwater, etc.

No human is "exceptional" enough to do this shit, and you can't do this shit by being a "trans-lizard" or something. A reincarnate spell maybe, but you can't just dress up and do it.

Another example from the same system is the Priestess. You are intended to make a different code of ethics and behaviors for each deity in your setting and are stated to be able to make a Priest class as well.However, The example of this class is the Priestess of a deity of hearth, healing, and motherhood. You have to be completely chaste and celibate until level 7, at which point you gain the title of Mother. You actually cannot level up to 8 until you have a child. The goddess herself won't let you advance until you do. Obviously this precludes people just pretending to be women or people who identify as women.

Within the same system is the Bladedancer. It's a female-only thing, but there's nothing about the class that would preclude men from doing it aside from tradition. So there'd be nothing wrong with a male Bladedancer.

You just have to look at these things and figure out why they have a racial or gender requirement.

>>48692613
lol, did you get friendzoned again?

>>48689441
>who is Rachel Dolezal?
The REAL question is though: do I want my games to be as retarded as real life? The answer is a resounding: NO.

>>48690255

If they wanted to be a trans they could have just joined the Children of Gaia although I'm curious how transgender surgeries and hormone therepies would gel with your transformation. I know Crinos form doesn't show your bits and pieces unless you want to but still...

>>48689392

>that reject anything with a penis up front

Well, just tuck your dick in behind, then.

But in all seriousness, Heracles fucked an amazon queen. They've accepted penises before, you just have to be heroic enough.

>>48693951
There's a difference between being accepted between their legs and being accepted into their ranks, fucktard.

How come whenever I'm tryna play a amazon with a dick it's magical realm but tumblr does it and it's all ~*P*R*O*G*R*E*S*S*I*V*E*~ and shiet?

Why can't my KKK memeber be black?

>>48694239
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a chapter of black queer Klansmen somewhere in the weird part of the South.

>>48688936
>There's nothing necessarily stopping a biological man from understanding and embracing the Amazons' cultural values.

He would just be a warrior then. I see no conflict here. Or do I misunderstood the myths about Amazons?

>>48693361
I'm happily married. Women are attracted to strong men.

Stay cucked, betas.

>>48694239
In fairness, you could do something pretty interesting with a character who is black-as-far-as-the-Klan-is-concerned but pale-skinned enough to pass trying to keep his ancestry a secret from his fellow Klansmen.

>>48688936
Man raised by Amazons? Sure.
However, the idea that mythical culture defined by basically two traits:
> A: Warriors
> B: Women > Men
-would raise a male as a warrior in that same culture is asinine. Your options would basically be some sort of outcast (thief/sorcerer/etc) or bottom-shelf fodder, and you'll likely end up treading the Gary Stu waters regardless.

> TL;DR
Go bat to tumbler.

>>48688936
Wouldn't a male amazon just be some sort of barbarian?

>>48694684
>>48688936
Generally, Amazons left their male children with the dads. Not sure what happened if he wasn't available. You could say they kept your character around.

>>48693951
Did Hercules rape her?

>>48694879
>Father was a qt poet who actually died by snu snu
>With no other relative to dump him off at AmazonMILF raised him as one of the girls
>"Girls" in this case means str 18 rage monster though

>>48688936
ITT
DIRE
FUCKING
NEED
OF
ALERTA!!!!
ALERTA!!!!
ALERTA ANTIFASCIIIIIIIIITA!!!!!!!!

>>48694834
Possibly, though if they have some specific gender roll like male = cleric, he might be a healer/buffer instead of a barbarian

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>>48688936
>inhibit imaginative storytelling
This is the exact method by which good settings and stories are made. You cut down on creativity, saying no to the obscenely imaginative but self-indulgent, and narrowing things down to more reasonable and modest levels.

Anyone can come up with some seriously wild and unique shit. Coming up with good shit us much harder, and involves saying no more often than yes.

>>48694239
>>48694284
There´s big groups of neo nazis (and others who call themselves just nazis) in South America. Dark as hell people talking about the superiority of the white race to which they of course belong.

And, well, have you ever heard about the Gay Russian Nazis? It´s actually a pretty big group in Russia.

Player characters should be free to be anything, because the world is already full of the most retarded bullshit you can think of. Doesn´t mean the NPCs or the other player characters have to take you seriously, but if you want to play as a gay Russian nazi and get spit on by pissed off grandmas, why not?

>>48688936
The thing is, an Amazon tribe would outright reject a male character.

>>48688936
How about this?
Amazonian armies are composed mostly of females, or at least that is what their enemies believe. Their society puts a heavy emphasis on gender roles, THEIR gender roles.
Women occupy not only leadership roles, but also make the majority of the military forces. There are two reasons for this, one is that the way they fight favors lithe bodies and the endurance of females over the raw strength and muscle mass of males, whittling away the enemy forces with hit-and-run attacks and leaving the harsh enviroment of their homeland to finish the job.
The males are tasked with the labor to keep their civilization going, be it farm work or building structures. The ones that join their armies are normally employed as archers, their main function being flanking enemy troops and pelting them with arrows from very heavy longbows, completely unseen. This is where the tales of famous Amazonian archers come from, now females are pretty deadly with a bow too, but that is not their main role in battle. Just like face to face combat is not the forte of Amazonian men.
The other reason the armies are mainly composed of women is the way they choose their leaders. Due to unknown factors, 9 out of 10 women are born barren, making 10 percent of their female population incredibly valuable and almost irreplaceable. For this reason these few women are to be trained as leaders, healers, shamans, and any other non combat role they can fit in. To make use of the barren women they are trained from birth to be excellent warriors and hunters.
Now, you MIGHT find a male in a position of power, or a fertile woman in battle, or even a warrior woman firing a heavy bow with other men. Possible, but exceedingly rare and speaks volumes of their ability at said task.

>>48697753
>With no other relative to dump him off at
AmazonMILF leaves him in the forest to die.

If he survives and returns, they kill him.

>>48690132
There's one in Mazes & Minotaurs. It's an OSR game that riffs on Greek myths and peplum sensibilities. And it's even available for free in pdf!

>>48693361

Isn't he right? I mean, as a personal anecdote, my sister learns multiple martial arts and so on, but I could still pin her fairly easily. She also married a man who basically had her be a standard housewife while he brought back the dough, and she's had two children.

Where I'm from, women usually stop working after getting married and tend the household, while the husband is the breadwinner.

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>>48688936

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>>48692613

>>48689441
>white dude has to stand in for Black Panther for a short period of time because of reasons and can't let anyone find out
Honestly sounds pretty funny.

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>>48690314

>FtMs
>cool dudes

>>48706896
No he actually believes this shit.
Trigger warning: facts
We don't have to hunt for food anymore. Women are better at multitasking, so they make better managers and organisers, but men are better at dedicating themselves to one thing, so they're better scientists and artists.
A leader needs to be good at both, so men and women are both shit leaders.

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>>48709259
>Women are better at multitasking, so they make better managers and organisers

lol

>>48706982
Hey, Iron Man's a black 15-year old girl, anything's possible

>>48709259
>muh enlightened middle ground

>>48688936
If you use the words 'gender identity' at my table, I'm throwing your ass out just to be safe.

>>48688996
Don't mage and vampire also have female-only shit? I don't get the point.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with gender faggotry is my games, and my players are allowed to be the exception to something that isn't defined by the word.

Can a male be an Amazon? No. But a male PC can come from something that resembles an Amazonian tribe, whether this means they're an escaped snu snu slave, or a trap or whatever.

>>48692613
>Says he is going to post facts then fails to post any facts.

>>48694548
Your hand does not count.
>>48709368
>/pol/ retards thinks dailyfail is a good source for information.

>>48712174

Are you attempting to claim that dailymail invented this story wholecloth, or otherwise lied in this particular case? Or are you merely kicking and screaming because your world view has been called into question?

>>48712593
Yes, I am saying dailyfail made the thing up and you can't prove me wrong.

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>>48688936
>These restrictions only seem to inhibit imaginative storytelling rather than adding flavor to the setting.
I disagree strongly. Restrictions, particularly historical ones, which almost always arise from logical solutions to imminent problems, create much more flavor and contour the setting. The very anachronism of the rationale of why those restrictions exist in the first place gives the setting flavor.

For instance, religions that arose out of hot climates oftentimes had stricter food restrictions than those in more temperate or cooler climes. Why? Because if you tell someone not to eat a certain meat, which will go bad very quickly in the heat, they'll tell you to go fuck yourself. If you tell him that a Deity will smite your ass for all eternity, he might just listen. In other words, dogma follows practicality, even if that practical logic doesn't persist in other situations.

So, fuck you. Really.

>>48713073
Cool. So why is it always "girls only" and never "boys only"?

>>48712712

lol ok m8

>>48710973

I don't recall Mage having an all female tradition but there is a an offshoot clan of vampires that were all female although I think they are either extremely rare or were killed off in some kind of way.

Their thing was having disciplines using their voices I think.

>it's an 'I want unique civilizations so I'm going to make them all tolerant and inclusive of everybody and everything' episode

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>>48713231

Hey.

>>48690404

They have no ability to deal with male hormones flooding and transforming their bodies and brains so they have an incredibly difficult time not being highly masculine in every way. Considering the very powerfully transformative and nearly irreversible effects of testosterone, FtM trannys much more closely approximate a man than a MtF tranny approximates a woman.

>>48713231
Double standards; but feel free to have your own.

And don't fret; you still have Space Marines.