/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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(from last thread)

Fuck guys

I am, like, so fucking confused

What...man, the last time I was around, Blood and Smoke/ VtR 2.0 was a thing. Now there is this Chronicles of Darkness doohickie? What is going down?
What's this I hear about custom morality paths?
What's a Paladin?

>>48677780
White Wolf does not own WoD anymore. Onyx Path took over and is basically going through a rebranding.

>>48677517

First of all, hi, welcome back, as you can see the threads haven't really changed.

So, long story short: CCP sold off the White Wolf subsidiary and all IP rights to Paradox Interactive, which had its origin in tabletop game company Target Games, and clearly wants to get involved with it again. Paradox has used their purchase to create White Wolf Publishing AB (sometimes referred to as Paradox White Wolf or just Paradox). Under the creative direction of famous LARPer Martin Ericsson, White Wolf Publishing AB wants to bring back the Old World of Darkness setting in a big way, creating the One World of Darkness, a fifth edition of the setting and a reboot into a multimedia franchise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wewNseVo24

In order to prevent IP confusion from media licensees, Onyx Path and White Wolf came to an agreement: oWoD will henceforth be called "World of Darkness" and New World of Darkness becomes "Chronicles of Darkness".

Chronicles of Darkness is pretty much nWoD in its entirety. All the second editions can now be called so, and currently Vampire 2e, Werewolf 2e, Mage 2e, and Promethean 2e are available for purchase, with Changeling 2e in open playtesting, Hunter 2e in development, and Geist 2e being just announced.

Morality has changed dramatically. Mortals now have Integrity, as in God Machine Chronicle, Vampire have a slightly altered version of Humanity, Werewolves have a Harmony that swings up and down and is best kept to 5, Mages have a slightly altered Wisdom, and Prometheans now have Pilgrimage.

>>48677780

Chronicles of Darkness is the new name for New World of Darkness.

>>48677806

Nope, not even close. White Wolf owns everything related to WoD. Onyx Path just continues to keep its tabletop licensing relationship, publishing nWoD stuff under the Chronicles of Darkness label and having full permission to print World of Darkness 20th Anniversary Edition has its own edition. White Wolf Publishing AB considers it a fourth edition of the setting, where One World of Darkness will be the fifth.

Onyx Path is still licensing Exalted and WoD/CofD, which White Wolf Publishing still owns. Onyx Path still owns Scion, Trinity, and Scarred Lands, however. Scion's second edition should have a Kickstarter launching in a few weeks.

>>48677855
>>48677881
>>48677806


Okay...okay

Now I just need to look at my VtR stuff and decide which things to toss or get rid of

>>48677948

If you're worried about 2e backwards compatibility, pretty much all of the vampire 1e line plays nice with Vampire 2e, its just that some of it is a bit more fudging than others.

If you still want to get rid of stuff, we should be getting a book on the Covenants soon, so you could in theory dump your Covenant books. I'd be careful, though, Vampire is currently the slowest line of all 2e.

>>48677948

Everything should be fairly compatible.

>>48678002
All I have is Blood and Smoke for VtR 2nd ed

When I heard about the differing moral paths, I got a tad "o fuckballs" and became a tad spergy.

I remember looking through Blood and Smoke and being kind of confused. It wasn't the VtR I remembered. Infact it looked a tad Twilight-y.
Mind you, it isn't, but some of the flavour text seem to give it that air.

I also liked how the disciplines were re-worked, further divorcing it from Masquerade (I did get pissy about Protean Claws not doing aggravated damage, but I got over it)

The "Banes" that PCs can fall prey to if their humanity drops too low was a really neat touch.

I was annoyed that they kind of "simplified" some of the Covenants. I mean, I like the concept of a Lancea Sanctum Muslim guy, who opens his salat with al-fatiha, then quotes the Testament as an subsequent verse.

Belial's Brood seem to be gone completely. For better or worse.
The Stryx (sp?) are neat, and hearken back to Lasombra a bit.

So I am excited yet confused as to what to pick up first.

What do you lads think? Will I *NEED* the Chronicles of Darkness corebook to use VtR 2.0? Does it differ at all from Blood and Smoke?

>>48678281

Blood and Smoke is straight up just Vampire the Requiem Second Edition. I think it has some errata put into it, but it is otherwise the exact same text, just re-named.

You do not need the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook. Second Edition has made it so that every single core functions as its own independent rules texts, like how oWoD used to do it. CofD core is explicitly geared towards Mortal parties and games, and half of it is a reprint of God Machine Chronicle material.

However, you may still be interested in getting it because it does contain some neat rules that aren't in VtR 2e/Blood and Smoke. The Investigation, Planning, and Chase rules are all pretty neat.

>>48677780
I'll answer like in the last thread:

>What...man, the last time I was around, Blood and Smoke/ VtR 2.0 was a thing. Now there is this Chronicles of Darkness doohickie? What is going down?
nWoD 2e. Renamed to reduce mix-up with oWoD.

>What's this I hear about custom morality paths?
I dunno. What is this you hear? I want to hear it too.

>What's a Paladin?
No idea. What's a Paladin?

>>48677948
Why would you toss out everything? OPP hit squads won't kick down your door just for using 1e stuff.

>>48678431
Ah, no. Not toss out everything. But what to pack away (mostly) and what to save.

My uh...I should've said, my bookshelf if getting really fulll

Did you know that White Wolf put out an offical VtM Let's Play?

They did it to advertise the Humble Bundle, which was actually not a bad idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBr55_UCfik

>>48678281
Right.

>All I have is Blood and Smoke for VtR 2nd ed
Blood and Smoke IS VtR 2e. Go to DrivethruRPG and download the new one. If you bought it, you should have it re-named now.

>When I heard about the differing moral paths, I got a tad "o fuckballs" and became a tad spergy.
What differing morality paths?

>I remember looking through Blood and Smoke and being kind of confused. It wasn't the VtR I remembered. Infact it looked a tad Twilight-y.
>Mind you, it isn't, but some of the flavour text seem to give it that air.
Eh. What?

>I also liked how the disciplines were re-worked, further divorcing it from Masquerade (I did get pissy about Protean Claws not doing aggravated damage, but I got over it)
Aggravated is more important in 2e. You can still get agg claws with Protean, but it requires a Merit now

>The "Banes" that PCs can fall prey to if their humanity drops too low was a really neat touch.
Yes. Great idea, too bad they are never worth it mechanically

>I was annoyed that they kind of "simplified" some of the Covenants. I mean, I like the concept of a Lancea Sanctum Muslim guy, who opens his salat with al-fatiha, then quotes the Testament as an subsequent verse.
They divorced it even more from Masquerade. There will be other Covenants in places like Iran than in the US.
The Muslim Lancea et Sanctum is most likely a different Covenant, that also uses the TEstament

>Belial's Brood seem to be gone completely. For better or worse.
No, not gone, just not mentioned.

>So I am excited yet confused as to what to pick up first.
No supplements for 2e yet. They got into a bit of a fuckfest with the planning. With some luck, we'll get new books soon.

>What do you lads think? Will I *NEED* the Chronicles of Darkness corebook to use VtR 2.0? Does it differ at all from Blood and Smoke?
Eh. CofD core book is the update of the nWoD core book. So of course it differs. You don't NEED it, but the extra merits and mechanics are neat.

>>48678513
Yeah. They really don't want to advertise CofD.

>>48678540
>Eh. What?

There was some flavour text somewhere talking about the pcs being "sexy and forever young" or somesuch. I can't quite remember now

>>48678669
That's kind of the Daeva Schtick, yes.

>>48678562

There'd be no real benefit for them doing so, at least if they actually manage to pull of this One World of Darkness thing.

>>48678692
Well, obviously, but this was written with Kindred in general

Anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter. I can hardly remember it anyhow

>>48678540
>What differing morality paths

Apparently:


>>48677855
>Morality has changed dramatically. Mortals now have Integrity, as in God Machine Chronicle, Vampire have a slightly altered version of Humanity, Werewolves have a Harmony that swings up and down and is best kept to 5, Mages have a slightly altered Wisdom, and Prometheans now have Pilgrimage.

>>48678915
>>What differing morality paths
>Apparently:

Eh. But Supers had different morality systems than mortals in 1e too. That hasn't changed. They just cleaned up the Mortal one...

>>48678915

It was that way in first edition, too; humans had Morality, Vampires had Humanity, Werewolves had Harmony, Mages had Wisdom, etc. Literally every single game had a different one.

Or are you talking about how there's no longer a monolithic hierarchy of sins, and you determine Breaking Points for each character individually? Because that's new and a welcome addition to the game.

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>>48678281
>Mind you, it isn't, but some of the flavour text seem to give it that air.

THE COMMUNION OF THE CUNT AND THE COMMUNION OF THE COCK

>>48679179
ugh they fucking ruined Toreadors by adding the Daeva

>>48679270

what the hell are you talking about

>>48679270
I'm curious as to how you make that work.

>>48679179
I've never really seen the problem with that line. It's supposed to be debauched. Blasphemous, even.

Also, there's no cunt there, those are two dudes.

>From Daveb on OP forums
>I told people at the con how Deviants' powers work, what their Integrity traits are, what the x and y splat axes are... Loads of stuff.
>I'm still in Indianapolis. Details will emerge eventually

While I would like the con talk to be up this week, past con handling tell me to wait about two weeks (and even then we might not see/hear much, though I was reading they got a better recording device) *shrug*

>>48679031
Jakki, buddy old pal. Has my number one source for mummy info, can you tell me everything you know of the First Gods?

>>48680602

There's not a lot to know. Azar was first among them, named king by the Shan'iatu and murdered by them so that he may become king of Duat. Their ritual worked, allowing him to usurp Anpu (who then became a guide to the dead rather than their ruler), but he never spoke to them again and did not reward them like they expected. Heru is a solar god and I believe is the Nameless Lion, but apparently was not well regarded by the Iremites. Sutek is the god of Will and stood against the mandate of Law that said all life must go to Ammut's jaws and was killed for his insolence, but his will persists in the human race and is part of what steers the Arisen towards Apotheosis.

I think I'm forgetting a couple. There's not a ton of info, and what exists is in Book of the Deceived and Dreams of Avarice.

>>48678281
>Belial's Brood seem to be gone completely. For better or worse.
They're in the first supplement.
>The Stryx (sp?) are neat, and hearken back to Lasombra a bit.
Strix. From a variety of VtR books.

>>48680732

Belial's Brood are gonna be in Secrets of the Covenants?

>>48680763
Yes.

>>48680786

Got a source on that, bud?

>>48680795
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJz_HsiLvwF8e4okeCDF-FzV-japjrLxmd9bx4diVSc
Rose mentioned it a few times on the board too

>>48680809

That's all Circle of the Crone.

>>48680809
None of that is about Belial's Brood...

>>48680839
>>48680835
Wrong covenant, sorry
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZXnaJDf-gERGZe97JoIqj2bffJyrjal8Ch4xWD4L9lg/

>>48680889
>no mention of the Brood
>one heretical ritual dedicated to Belial

That's not the same as the Brood and you fucking know it.

>>48677665
So an anon in the previous thread asked what would happen if the Tremere had diablerised Tzimisce instead of Salout. This seems like it could have fun metaplot implications. What do you think would happen? Would Gargoyles become much more body horror like the war ghouls that no one seems to use anymore? Would the Salubri clan split between warriors to Sabbat and healers to Cammies? Could the remaining Tzimisce be forced into independence and eventual irrelevance or would they go on the fucking warpath like the Harbingers of Skulls do? I would love to hear what y'all think since I think I'm having this happen for my Dark Ages game and would love to see how it'd ripple through history.

>>48680918
Rose Bailey confirmed that they still exist. If you search Belial's Brood on the Onyx Path Forums, you can find it out.

If you're actually interested in whether they are or not, go look there. If you're just invested in saying they aren't, keep masturbating here.

>>48678281

Welcome to Chronicle of Darkness or the brand formally known as New World of Darkness: 2nd edition.

To catch you up to speed;

New core book Chronicles of Darkness. Has the new investigation system and some crafting stuff(want some loose guidlines for making your own mad max cars? Look under equipment) As well as Horrors; pretty much a catch all for those monsters that don't really fall under a description. So if you want to make slender man, a Banshee, evil wishing well etc, look at horrors.

Werewolf 2nd Edition came out. They will murder you. No really, unless you have supernatural aid or some kind of boon(group of men with shotguns) they will murder you. Even then they heal 1 health bar of lethal a turn. Also their morality is best at 5 and they can't spend exp to change it. So they go from being more human(high harmony) to more murder wolf(low harmony).

Beast: The Primordial came out. We can't talk about it here, people get upset.

Mage 2nd edition came out. Their are some exploits but mages can't really blow up cities at level 1 100% of the time anymore(their combat can be very 'rocket tag'). Also paradox will fuck your family to death and everyone seams to forget it exists.

Changeling play test came out. Looking good so far.

Promethean 2nd edition just came out. The most complaints seam to be about them using tumblr pronouns and alchemists not being playable(it takes 5 minutes of modding to make them playable, but well 4chan).

According to DaveB, Deviant has two morality stats.

Huh.

>>48681244
What people are saying is that you haven't proven the statement that you made as being true. It's not about us saying "they don't exist anymore", it's about us saying [citation needed].

For all we know you read "you can still use any 1e materials you want" as "they totally one hundred percent exist, that was my plan".

I mean, she put VII in the core so that she wouldn't need to explain them in future books.

>>48678716
They already pulled off their One World of Darkness thing, and that was literally it. They just shoved "World" off nWoD, slapped "Chronicle" on it, and now cWoD's their One World.

It was oversimplifying and stupid.

>>48681744

Amy doesn't even work for them anymore. Rose posted that.

I'm offended you'd compare them.

>>48681811
Honestly I don't even know how I mixed them up, I've definitely gone without sleep for too long.

So in 1e indomitable went from 1 to 5 instead of being fixed at 2. Would it be allowable to let it go beyond 2? It seems weaker then in 1e because in 1e it applied to all influence not just supernatural stuff. Im thinking of making it mortal exclusive to give them a sort of supernatural tolerance.

>>48681493

No I mean, if they can actually make One World of Darkness the multimedia success they want. All they need, I think, is one popular video game and they have a foundation. Now's a better time than ever to be unleashing shared universe stuff, though the ideal time would have been around Avengers 1 coming out.

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>>48681322
Two morality meters, you say?

>>48681322
Where do you get this from?

>>48682283
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/608073-deviant-the-subtitle-discussion?p=945892#post945892

>>48680706
Thanks.

So weren't the panel's supposed to be uploaded somewhere?

>>48683156

The con just ended today, anon. Nobody's even home yet.

>>48683573

I doubt we see the panels until next week. Maybe earlier since IanW got home first but that's a bit of a stretch.

>For years, we’ve entertained fan requests for rules that allow different supernatural creatures to play in the same game. This year we’re pleased to announce that we’ll create a book that’s tentatively titled The Crossover Chronicle which will provide all the necessary rules to play within a setting designed around the idea that every single supernatural exists and they may be aware of all the others, too. This will be a massive undertaking never before attempted for the Chronicles of Darkness!

Isn't this how it works by default?

Oh god I am watching Stranger Things right now and everyone says how its basically a Hunter game. The part where Winona Rider is desperately hanging up Christmas lights around her house totally sells me on the idea. That is a PC move if I ever saw one.

>>48684023
No, it's been a possibility, but it's always been hard because there are questions like "what happens if a vampire feeds from a Sin-eater?"

Presumably this will give suggestions to answer that. There've been crossover stuff, but presumably this is going to be SUPER crossover, with a more oWoD level of intersplat knowledge and communication.

>>48680959
Personally, I think the Tremere would not have much of a chance of joining the Camarilla in this timeline.

In the original timeline, the Salubri was a weak and insignificant clan overall; they didn't embrace often due to their clan's views, and large parts of them were not interested in violence of any sort, which was what made the Tremere's coup so easy to pull off (along with the Tremere propaganda).

The Tzimisce are far more numerous, entrenched in heavily fortified positions (castles) and have a murderboner the size of Transylvania for anyone who'd dare to try taking their lands from them. Their Kolduns also have magical powers that can even the odds against the Tremere's thaumaturgy.

And unlike the Salubri, who were always viewed as being *too* goodhearted (and thus suspicious to most other vampires who are used to betrayal and deception), the Tzimisce didn't hide what they were. Yes, they were A-grade assholes, but they also slavishly followed a code of honor that even Salubri warriors respected (even if they didn't like it).

Upstart humans stealing the power of the Tzimisce would get the High Clans (and the Low Clans as well) much more agitated.

In fact, I don't see the Tremere joining any major sect at all... I think it more likely that the Tremere would end up as another independent clan, living on the fringes, offering magical favors to other vampires, and being hunted by just about any other vampire who found out their true nature.

Likely, only a few would survive until the discovery of the New World, after which the Tremere would probably flock to the Americas in order to set up a proper base in a new and foreign world, one where there *weren't* any major rivals or bloodthirsty and vengeful Tzimisce. After that, I can see their population booming, and they'd amass a much greater amount of power, enough to push them up from being a jumped-up bloodline and into being considered a clan, small and despised, but a clan nonetheless.

>>48677780
Betray me

>>48680136
If only it was debauched or blasphemous and not just retarded and cringy.

>>48684282
Ok, I can totally see this. Thanks anon.

>>48678377
>The Investigation, Planning, and Chase rules are all pretty neat.
Not really. They are quite a mess as it is. But half dozen merits that affect it + glaring omission of Parkour having any effect on chase and incompatibility of magical investigation make it borderline unusable.
Maybe social chase instead of social manoeuvring which is mess too, but that's about it.

Btw. did you notice how badly written is paragraph about firearms in close combat in 2e? Without knowing how it worked in 1e it doesn't make any sense at all.

>>48677665
So, I've been thinking of getting into VtM/VtR, and have a group of willing players.
Which edition would be the best/easiest to start off in?

>>48686541
>Btw. did you notice how badly written is paragraph about firearms in close combat in 2e?

Wut?

>>48686563
Ok. The Big Question is: What is it you want out of the game?

That will be a big decider as to which I'll recommend.

>>48686599
Whoa, hard question.
I guess I want a system that is not too difficult to get into or understand (fairly new to GMing) that will be accessible to players who know little or nothing about WoD and isn't too combat focused?

Sorry if I'm not being helpful, if you ask more specific questions, I think I might be more clear

what skills should I get for being a lumberjack?

>>48681269
Why do people dislike Beast so much? I haven't played any of the system, and beast seems a bit interesting to me

>>48686671
>I haven't played any of the system

Here's your problem

>>48686667
A few dots in Athletics and Craft, and maybe a couple in Survival and Weaponry.

>>48686563
VtR if you want a mature game for adults.

VtM if you want a teenager level wish fullfilment piece of crap with horrible mechanics from the 90's.

>>48686731
what specialty should I get so I can abuse multi-discipline specialty and area of expertise?

>>48686665
No, no, that's fair.
Requiem is a less clunky system to learn, and it's a bit faster in play.
That said, both are easy when one compare them to, say, any edition of D&D.

Neither is focused on combat, but Masquerade has a few more broken powers than Requiem has. They tried to balance things from the beginning in Requiem, which made some stuff easier to handle.


Setting-wise, the differences can be summed up as this:
Masquerade: The players are pawns in an ancient, global war of mystical conspiracies (called sects). By default the sect players are part of is basically vampire-illuminati, and their enemies are violent anarchists and satanist-fascists. The anarchists are painted as relatively benign. It is very much a big-picture game.
There are 13 vampire clans, and they are rather strict in their definitions of membership, making character generation easy, but a bit limited. (In essence, there are a few more choices, several of the clans have different social structures in each of the sects.)
Vampires gauge their power in how many generations of vampire are between them and the vampire progenitor, and there are no socially acceptable ways to change it.

Requiem: More personal. The city is what matters, not the world. Old vampires are perhaps 200-300 years older than you. Not 2000-3000.
There are now just 5 clans, but they are a lot wider in scope, archetypes rather than stereotypes. This gives less hand-holding when creating your character, but you have a lot less constraints.
What Requiem has instead of the three global sects, are a series of Covenants - basically a mix between a cult and a political party. By default there are five player-covenants (and two villainous, not intended for players), but it's explicitly said that they aren't everywhere, and a local setting can lack any of the "core" covenants, and the GM is encouraged to make up new ones.
Vampires gauge their power on how old they are, and they naturally grow in power by ageing.

>>48686689
Are you arguing that all the Beast haters have played it? I know someone who refuses to even READ it. All because SomethingAwful tells him it's just terribad and normalizes abuse or something like that.

>>48686665
VtR 2e

>>48685092
What I mean is that it's essentially supposed to be... not cringey, but a gross thing not meant to be taken as profound or Shakespearean so much as mocking.

>>48686598
>Firearms in Close Combat
>Any firearm larger than Size 1 is too big to accurately shoot
>someone when fists and crowbars are the order of the day. In
>close combat, the target’s Defense against Firearms attacks
>is increased by the gun’s (Size +1). If using a gun larger than
>a pistol to bludgeon the opponent, treat it as an improvised
>crowbar (see Weapon Traits, p. 268).
Cool, it increases defense against firearms, but
>Defense does not apply against Firearms attacks.
What does "too big to accurately shoot" mean isn't clear either. It can't be shot at all? Is there any penalty? Who knows...

>>48686755
>>48686810
>>48686818
Hmmm.....thank you all very much, you've given me a lot to work with, though it seems like I may go with Requiem, since it seems to be less rigid and constrained storywise.
Are there any intro adventures/scenariosto get me started?
Also, what's the equivalent of the Masquerade in Requiem? The thing that keeps Kindred from revealing themselves to the masses?

>>48686829
>What does "too big to accurately shoot" mean isn't clear either. It can't be shot at all? Is there any penalty? Who knows...
It... clearly states that it can be shot, just not accurately. The target gets Size+1 Defense. This is clearly an addendum to the normal rule about Firearms attacks having no Defense. It increases. Yes, even from 0. Or, if the target is perhaps a Daeva with superhuman speed, more than 0.

>>48686919
>Also, what's the equivalent of the Masquerade in Requiem? The thing that keeps Kindred from revealing themselves to the masses?
The Masquerade.

>>48686919
>Hmmm.....thank you all very much, you've given me a lot to work with, though it seems like I may go with Requiem, since it seems to be less rigid and constrained storywise.
Oh yes. A lot. Requiem is pretty much plug&play, Masquerade is a huge sprawling setting to learn.

>Are there any intro adventures/scenariosto get me started?
There is this:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/114063/Reap-the-Whirlwind
Free introduction to Requiem.

>Also, what's the equivalent of the Masquerade in Requiem? The thing that keeps Kindred from revealing themselves to the masses?
It's also called the Masquerade.
They've changed it a bit though, now it's not "be careful, or the masses will rise up in violent revolt and destroy our race!". In Requiem it's more "the masses don't care. The masses never care. About anything. You should be careful, because if you fuck up, you'll draw attention to yourself. That might get you killed."
It's all in the "more personal" thing. It's a bit more chill. A big theme of CofD is: Humanity as a whole don't care. They move on, ignore the obvious supernatural stuff. Stick the head in the sand, it's easier.

>>48686810
>Neither is focused on combat, but Masquerade has a few more broken powers than Requiem has.
Which powers are you talking about? Masquerade powers are generally shittier than Requiem's.

>>48686960
Sure. But what I mean is: In Masquerade there were required combat Disciplines. Most notably Celerity. If you don't have Celerity, you WILL lose any fight with someone who has it.

>>48684039
Stranger Things is like Hunter, featuring Beast and Deviant.

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>>48687447
>Stranger Things is like Hunter, featuring Beast and Deviant.
>featuring Beast
>Beast

Anon pls, Stranger Things had nothing to do with Beast, it was more of a CoC type of campaing.

>>48686946
>It... clearly states that it can be shot, just not accurately. The target gets Size+1 Defense. This is clearly an addendum to the normal rule about Firearms attacks having no Defense. It increases. Yes, even from 0. Or, if the target is perhaps a Daeva with superhuman speed, more than 0.
Do you mean that target gets size + 1 just against firearms bigger than size 1? Or for all sizes and bonus 2 to defense is considerate still accurate and bigger than that inaccurate?
Either way such little bonus to defense seems really underwhelming compared to 1e. I assumed that it was supposed to be bonus to normal defense which applied in close combat even against firearms and it was just badly written.

>>48687621
I figured the best comparison for the Monster would be a Beast, what with the upside down and whatnot being seen as a lair.

>>48687621
Just because Beast is shittily written, it doesn't mean the ideas behind it are bad.

Stop being a thin-skinned feminist-lookalike and grow a pair.

So, I don't mean to trigger people, but, what is the premise behind Beast? Bit hazy on it

>>48687729
Your soul has been replaced by an Astral monster. You need to feed on the suffering of mortals.
Your actions fuck up people, turning them into single-minded killers who want to end you.

>>48687776
I heard you basically have to feed every week. Like, does it have to be fear you cause in the real world, or can ya affect dreams?

>>48687776
But it's for their own good because overpopulation and urbanisation have cut people off from the primal fears that taught early humans to come together for collective good.

I'm setting a upcoming game in 70s New York (Mage but cribbing Bowery Dogs rules) and I'm wondering about blocks. Is each block one building? How many things (businesses, apartments, etc) are in them? How big are they? Are they all separated by streets?

>>48687819
Yeah, that's the rationalization that was bolted on to it.
Otherwise it'd clash too much with the "these are trans people" theme they have going. Couldn't have trans people be villains now, could we?

>>48687660
At best it would've been an entity from oWod Umbra maybe, the creature wasn't anything human-like.

>>48687687
I admit my never-ending hate for Beast, not so much for the writing (which sucked) but for the immense waste of potential.
When I heard of Beast the first time i was expecting some kind of game to inglobate all the concepts behind the entities lurking in the nWod (never really liked the Dread powers and generic monster creations), instead we got this mess of a game.

>>48687841
On a bit of a tangent to that - did they use singular They in Promethean 2ed?

>>48687853
Nah. They went with edgier Zie and Xie

>>48687908
>>48687853

Generally, they went with singular they.

>>48687819
Yeah and best way to teach the lesson is to kill the pupil. Bri-fucking-liant.

>>48687908
Yeah. When describing a character who has no idea what gender they are.

>>48687621
In fairness, I imagine the first Beast campaign has plenty of CoC in it (it's just not allowed to go inside women)

>>48687641
The whole way defense is handled in the 2e makes this wonky as hell. You roll it, but it's a larger dice pool, and firearms cause automatic damage.

>>48687776
And why does everyone hate Beast?

>>48688191
Because Beasts are written as stand-ins for various minorities.
Their opponents, the Heroes, are painted as always being utterly in the wrong.

The game is extremely black-and-white. Beasts are good, Heroes are bad.

Also, the mechanics are kinda shitty, and it's an extremely pointless game. There is no drive to do anything, like there is in the others.

>>48687687
It's not even that bad in the first place.

>>48687729
You're a SPOOK MONSTER who has to feed yourself by SPOOKING PEOPLE. You have a creepy fixation with making friends, which is useful because your game has no point. Sometimes jerkfaces try to KILL YOU.

In a lot of ways, Beast is like Geist. You share a supernatural headmate that gives you powers (Horror and Geist respectively) and there's not much else to do.

>>48687841
>>48687967
>>48687819
>>48688228
>>48687776
>Your actions fuck up people, turning them into single-minded killers who want to end you.
All of you are wrong, misinformed, putting way too much stock into stupid shit people have said about Beast, or going off of the first draft. You don't turn people into single-minded killers, that was an aspect of the first draft. It was also barely a possibility, mechanically, and intended to serve as a "don't do shit willy nilly or it will make people who want to kill you" feature.
You also don't teach lessons by killing the "pupil". Killing feeds your Horror, but that doesn't mean it's a "good" thing. Your Horror wants... well, horror, whether you do or not. You don't have to give into that.
Overpopulation is not justification for murdering people, it's the reason that Heroes (and Beasts) are useless. They're from a bygone era.
Trans or nonbinary people have been just as villainous as regular people. Honestly, more so, if you think about it.
Beasts are also not trans people. They're literally meant to be a "the tiger needs to eat" metaphor; just because the monster is monstrous doesn't mean it's not a person (but, again, VtM did this in 1991 already)
They are not stand ins for minorities any more than any of the other splats.

>>48687988
And the Phosphorum Refinement. Because of reasons.

>>48688228
It's a little more than that: it's that the Beasts stand for minorities, the narrative paints them as inarguable good and everyone who opposes them as comically bad (and everyone who supports everyone who opposes them... in real life), but at the same time THEY'RE DEPICTED AS DOING THINGS THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE ARE ACTUALLY BAD, and some of those opponents whom the narrative beats you on the head with the fact you should hate are really sympathetic victims of the Beasts themselves. It's like a game some /pol/lack made up in an ironic memepost to make fun of SJWs, except it actually exists, in all its absurd glory.

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>>48687853
>>48687908
They do

>>48688249
Beast builds too much on dysphoria as a theme to not be read as a trans metaphor, at least to the same extent that changeling and promethean do, too. Any gameline where 'this isn't my real body' is something a character could believe and be right about is going to get trans metahpor'd, even if it's not an intentional read. Beast is also just way, way more clumsy about how it handles all of its themes to the point where it's offensive on pretty much every level where other games can be a bit graceful.

>>48688228
>Also, the mechanics are kinda shitty, and it's an extremely pointless game. There is no drive to do anything, like there is in the others.
The mechanics don't seem that bad, save for Heroes not being that powerful or Satiety being less impressive than it could be. Lairs are great.

>>48688191
Because people are mostly believing /tg/ and more to the point SomethingAwful when they say the game is this big gross abuse metaphor, despite the fact that it actually doesn't really do anything that other WoD books didn't do before. Most complaints focus on that--or complain about it being too SJW--instead of focusing on the fact that there's nothing to do.
Although it probably doesn't help that it intentionally called out Gamergate as the kind of thing the villain splat would do, even though it's a perfect comparison.

There's also a neckbeard with a katana as a sample villain, but honestly I love that and would use him as a Hunter or Banisher.

>>48687816
About that often. You also need to do something that would give more dice on the SPOOKENING than you have current Satiety, so you either need to spend Satiety to go lower and have to do less big things, or you need to do bigger, flashier, more drastic feedings.Your Horror is kind of like a drug addict that needs its fix of Fear.
Come to think of it, Geist could have used a mechanic like that. Sin-eaters making sure to feed their Geist's habit.

So. Ok. If I make a Skin Thief, using the Merit from Dark Eras, I can steal the skins of spirits.
The book points out that this gives you a Twilight form, and for anything else, you have to enhance the form with Spirit Powers.
The change also costs nothing, just takes an action.
But you can buy another enhancement, Quick Change, which makes it a reflexive action.

So.. This means you can reflexively shift in and out of Twilight, for nothing.
That's a fantastic power!

Also, would you say that a Spirit Hybrid form would be Ephemeral or Material? (That is, is it in Twilight, or Manifest?)

>>48688431
>or you need to do bigger, flashier, more drastic feedings.

Or you get yourself a vampire friend and skip the whole concept of feeding

>>48688431
>The mechanics don't seem that bad, save for Heroes not being that powerful or Satiety being less impressive than it could be. Lairs are great.

Lairs are fantastic. I'll grant you that. Easily the best part of the book.

What I meant with "kinda shitty" is that there is a wide disparity between the usefulness of various Atavisms and Nightmares.
The CofD mantra for balance has always been "Don't make anything obviously better than an alternative", and in Beast, they failed miserably with that.

>>48688483
tbf, so did Mage

>>48688387
>It's a little more than that: it's that the Beasts stand for minorities, the narrative paints them as inarguable good and everyone who opposes them as comically bad
EXCEPT THAT IS NOT AT ALL THE FUCKING CASE. Do I really need to explain to you that depicting a character doing something bad is not the same as condoning that character's actions? Vampire has fucking BLOOD ORGIES and no one acts like Vampire is saying that's okay, despite the fact that Vampires constantly say that it is, and that humans are just cattle. Why the fuck do people act like Beasts being abusive somehow means Matt thinks it's okay to abuse people? Jesus Christ you fucking idiots.

>some of those opponents whom the narrative beats you on the head with the fact you should hate are really sympathetic victims of the Beasts themselves
Let's start off with the fact that THIS IS NOT IN THE FUCKING FINAL DRAFT. Heroes are not created by Beasts. Now, let's run down the list of reasons these complaints would be stupid even if the first draft was the final draft:
It was borderline impossible to actually make a Hero. We're talking worse than 1e Paradox; You needed to dramatically fail one specific power, or you needed to dramatically fail the roll for your Horror (then called Soul, to be extra confusing) to run amok in dreams and feed.
Heroes are not "sympathetic" except in the loosest sense of being gripped by a supernatural paranoia. They're still selfish and hateful people prone to lashing out and blaming others.
They needed to be Integrity 3, NOT from Supernatural experiences (in fact, the draft suggested using a Hunter instead). That's Slasher tier

>>48688430
It really doesn't have any dysphoria elements at all. Beasts feel wrong or distant or unattached, but after the Devouring that's gone. They don't actually want to become a dragon in the real world or any otherkin nonsense. They don't want to change their meatbody and it doesn't cause them any discomfort for not matching their Horror

>>48688512
Not nearly to the same degree.

>>48688523
>Why the fuck do people act like Beasts being abusive somehow means Matt thinks it's okay to abuse people?
Because Matt himself has said that Beasts are not bad guys(and shouldn't be played as such)(despite the fact that every actual play he ever posted has the players acting as straight up evil assholes), and we all know how 4chan loves to take things out of context and run with them.

>>48688523
If they don't want to become dragons, why is one of their end game states 'literally become a dragon'?

>>48688523
>EXCEPT THAT IS NOT AT ALL THE FUCKING CASE. Do I really need to explain to you that depicting a character doing something bad is not the same as condoning that character's actions? Vampire has fucking BLOOD ORGIES and no one acts like Vampire is saying that's okay, despite the fact that Vampires constantly say that it is, and that humans are just cattle. Why the fuck do people act like Beasts being abusive somehow means Matt thinks it's okay to abuse people? Jesus Christ you fucking idiots.

Vampires are painted as villains! Beasts are painted as good guys! That's the bloody difference!

>>48688463
Yeah...
Beast has a lot of themes that sort of get ruined by the crossover aspects. I mean, I GET IT. Family Dinner gives you a reason to actually seek out other creeps. But it sort of...
In freeform roleplaying, a lot of people will play characters with disabilities or curses or persistent problems because they want to explore, say, a character who's mute or illiterate or blind or disfigured. They'll often make notes about how they really don't want someone to come along and "fix" their character, because that takes away the thing they were interested in exploring.
Beast crossover sort of does the opposite.

Also, even creepier than watching a vampire feed, you can metaphorically jerk off your Hunger watching a Mage investigate. That's gotta be distracting.

>>48688553
>>48688512
>>48688483
>The CofD mantra for balance has always been "Don't make anything obviously better than an alternative"
Not really. I mean, there's no "this power gives +1 and this power gives +3", but there are several places where powers accomplish the same things. Dominate can invalidate most social interaction, and there are plenty of Demon powers that can put a stop to certain things. Knockout Punch is one a lot of people pointed out. I'm not entirely sure I agree, though, because it's situational.

Which Atavisms do you feel are better than alternative Atavisms?

>>48688581
I don't think he said that at all. I think you probably either heard that through the grapevine or misunderstood what he said. I've seen him say several times that it IS for playing the bad guy.

>>48688582
Because they promised us a game where you could be come a dragon and the least they could do is give us some vague barely defined end-game state where you get to be a dragon?
But in all seriousness, merging with your Horror isn't something everyone wants to do, and is far from some powerful drive like a Promethean's Pilgrimage or a Mage's Obsessions. It's a thing you can do, not a theme.

>>48688523
>Heroes are not "sympathetic" except in the loosest sense of being gripped by a supernatural paranoia. They're still selfish and hateful people prone to lashing out and blaming others.

This is the problem we have with it. They are victims. And this is grade A victim blaming.

>They needed to be Integrity 3, NOT from Supernatural experiences (in fact, the draft suggested using a Hunter instead). That's Slasher tier

Yeah. They needed to be broken people.
You might've missed that Integrity isn't Morality. Just because someone has low Integrity, it doesn't mean they are a monster, it doesn't mean they are "Slasher tier".

>>48688483
Hasn't the CofD mantra of balance been "insist it's unimportant and make fun of/call a munchkin anyone who claims otherwise?"

>>48688523
>Let's start off with the fact that THIS IS NOT IN THE FUCKING FINAL DRAFT.
The author intended it that way, he was forced to change it because of people complaining.

>EXCEPT THAT IS NOT AT ALL THE FUCKING CASE.
It is. Vampires are undead monsters who commits atrocities, no one consider their action understandable or "good".
Every action a Beast commits is "good", always, to teach a "lesson".

>>48688652
Nah, that was what White Wolf used to do. They changed.
Mind you, generally they fail miserably at it, but at least they try.

>>48688523
>>48688647
Is Sleeping Beauty still in the final draft? Did Matt actually go and make her a kitten kicking serial killer, or are we still supposed to be delighted at destroying the girl who dared resist when a pronoun came to rape her?

>>48688624
>Vampires are painted as villains! Beasts are painted as good guys! That's the bloody difference!
Except that's not the difference.
Vampires are painted just as much "good guys" as Beasts are, and Beasts are painted as "villains" just as much as Vampires are. Actually, less, because Vampire often goes to childish lengths to be edgy blood edge.

Beast makes literally the same arguments as Vampire, too. That whole "I have a right to exist" schtick that's so popular amongst monsters. And at least Beasts aren't slaughtering several people a night in a blood orgy.

I mean, they probably would if they could, but I bet if the smell wasn't horrendous, the Seers would do that to spice up their Eyes Wide Shut parties.

>>48688647
>They are victims.
They flat out are not. Like, literally. That's not how it works in the final draft. You don't create Heroes at all, period. A Beast never has to interact with someone in any way, shape, or form to create a Hero. You haven't even read the fucking book, so don't give me this bullshit.
>You might've missed that Integrity isn't Morality.
This is a fucking cop out and you know it. It's not Morality but you know damned well what it represents.

>>48688668
>The author intended it that way
Well, the author is dead.
You're the only one who thinks Beasts are unambiguously good woobies. The book doesn't paint them that way. And in the final draft the "lessons" thing was put in specifically for people who think Beasts are shitty evil things. The whole point of it is that it is explicitly a lie that Beasts tell themselves or stick to because they don't want to think of themselves as bastards.

You also make a connection between "Good" and "Lesson" that isn't actually there. The game is not the thing you make it out to be.

>>48688672
Wasn't "The Myth of Game Balance", where Matt compares people who demand balanced powers to his 2 years old son whining, in a CofD book?

>>48688701
>This is a fucking cop out and you know it. It's not Morality but you know damned well what it represents.
What the fuck am I reading

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>>48688701
>This is a fucking cop out and you know it. It's not Morality but you know damned well what it represents.

Yes. It represents broken people. Victims, addicts, and other suffering people.

>>48688163
All items with a damage rating do automatic damage on a success. Also I was under the impression you always used defense against firearms in close combat unless there were some specific circumstances.

>>48688701
>Vampires are painted just as much "good guys" as Beasts are, and Beasts are painted as "villains" just as much as Vampires are. Actually, less, because Vampire often goes to childish lengths to be edgy blood edge.

Eh. No.
Vampire is consistently talking about the inevitable fall into monster-hood. Your sense of decency will be constantly eroded. Your hunger will in the end be the only thing that matter to you.

They get touchstones to help themselves cling to humanity, but the book is clear at pointing out that it is futile, you WILL fall in Humanity, you WILL become a monster.
The only thing that can prevent it is death.

>Beast makes literally the same arguments as Vampire, too. That whole "I have a right to exist" schtick that's so popular amongst monsters. And at least Beasts aren't slaughtering several people a night in a blood orgy.

But vampires don't claim to have a right to exist! The book sure fucking doesn't.

>>48688701
>This is a fucking cop out and you know it. It's not Morality but you know damned well what it represents.

No. The three things that lower integrity are:

Supernatural attacks.
Trauma.
Violation of one's own moral code.

The last one shifts to handle falls in Integrity, so you generally won't fall far on that.

To get down to 3 or lower, you need to be a victim of serious trauma. Generally supernatural.

>>48688249
>All of you are wrong, misinformed, putting way too much stock into stupid shit people have said about Beast, or going off of the first draft.
BS. Most of us read the final version.
It tries to rationalize fucked up things and paint them up as right, while at the same time people who try to stop such monsters are universally bad.
If majority reads it one way and few individuals like you read it other way, it's obvious that at best it's so badly written that people can't grasp what author wanted to convey to them. Other possibility is that it's just plainly bad.
In the final it doesn't matter, it is clusterfuck.

>>48688523
>Do I really need to explain to you that depicting a character doing something bad is not the same as condoning that character's actions?
Not condoning that character's actions, but anyone who tries to stop him is literally worse than Hitler.

>>48688695
Sleeping Beauty is in the final draft. Nothing at all ever said you were supposed to be delighted in anything, stop being asinine.

Also, with the changes in the final draft, my fantheory is that Sleeping Beauty was attacked by her own Horror but rejected the Devouring. She's a Hero because she rejected her Devouring, she's trapped in the Astral because she probably killed her own Horror. Perhaps the negative Heroes are all the way they are because they were supposed to be Beasts. Maybe the positive Heroes had less violent rejections of the Devouring. Or maybe they were never met with the Devouring at all.
Perhaps another Beast tried to give Melanie the Devouring and she rejected it. I'm not actually sure how being Devoured by another Beast works. I mean, the Horror eats your soul and becomes it; if you Embrace another Beast do you, like... give up your Horror?

>>48688726
>>48688817
No, it was on Chuck Wedig's blog. He argues that a roleplaying game is not about A and B having the exact same powers, it's about A and B being part of a story, and they don't need the same powers or abilities to be part of the same story. It's not wrong, per se, but BMX Bandit doesn't have nearly as much agency or ability to move that story along. It works in games like Dresden Files RPG, where more powers means less narrative points, but in WoD your powers essentially are your ability to shape the narrative.

>>48688838
>No, it was on Chuck Wedig's blog. He argues that a roleplaying game is not about A and B having the exact same powers, it's about A and B being part of a story, and they don't need the same powers or abilities to be part of the same story. It's not wrong, per se, but BMX Bandit doesn't have nearly as much agency or ability to move that story along. It works in games like Dresden Files RPG, where more powers means less narrative points, but in WoD your powers essentially are your ability to shape the narrative.

The fuck does this have to do with Integrity?

>>48688838
>Also, with the changes in the final draft, my fantheory is that Sleeping Beauty was attacked by her own Horror but rejected the Devouring. She's a Hero because she rejected her Devouring, she's trapped in the Astral because she probably killed her own Horror.
>my fantheory is that Sleeping Beauty was attacked by her own Horror but rejected the Devouring.
>my fantheory is that
>fantheory

And here we have it, the fucking problem.

>>48688751
>>48688741
>>48688817
>Yes. It represents broken people. Victims, addicts, and other suffering people.
It represents more or less the same thing Morality did with the added aspect that you could, potentially, fall in Integrity of your own accord. It does NOT mean that every person of low integrity is some victim, addict, or other suffering person. A serial killer is also Integrity 3. So is someone who lies, cheats, steals, and blames others for their failings. You are the one who is treating it as if its only victims who become Heroes, despite the book itself explicitly stating that they need to be 1) broken to the point of madness without the intervention of the supernatural, and 2) already the kind of selfish, spiteful person who blames other people for their problems to the point of murder.

>To get down to 3 or lower, you need to be a victim of serious trauma. Generally supernatural.
That is not at all true. Murder is literally an Integrity Breaking Point at 1. Hell, characters can get used to the supernatural (otherwise anyone with their own Supernatural Merits would go bonkers).

>>48688832
It does not. Half the people claiming to have read the book say things that directly contradict it.

>>48688859
I misclicked.

>>48688875
That I have a fan theory?
Whatever the case, she's presented as someone who can be helped and cured and they've done away with any pesky moral quandaries like the fact that the only way to stop a teenage girl is to kill her (or point her at someone else).

File: Example Heroes.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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>>48688875
Here.

>>48688910
>It represents more or less the same thing Morality did with the added aspect that you could, potentially, fall in Integrity of your own accord. It does NOT mean that every person of low integrity is some victim, addict, or other suffering person. A serial killer is also Integrity 3. So is someone who lies, cheats, steals, and blames others for their failings. You are the one who is treating it as if its only victims who become Heroes, despite the book itself explicitly stating that they need to be 1) broken to the point of madness without the intervention of the supernatural, and 2) already the kind of selfish, spiteful person who blames other people for their problems to the point of murder.

No.
It does not.
The change from Morality to Integrity is a deliberate one.
It is EXPLICITLY about trauma and being able to handle your world-view changing now.

>That is not at all true. Murder is literally an Integrity Breaking Point at 1. Hell, characters can get used to the supernatural (otherwise anyone with their own Supernatural Merits would go bonkers).

What the fuck are you on about? Integrity Breaking Point at 1?
There is no cardinal list of sins any more.

What are the best Exploits and Embeds?

>>48689034
The ones you and your group make up themselves, that's the power of imagination anon

>>48688958
It refuses to load for me.

Anyhow, my problem was someone touting their fan theory about as if it were fact.

>>48688980
>What the fuck are you on about? Integrity Breaking Point at 1?
>There is no cardinal list of sins any more.
Huh. I'll give you that. They left the "But My Character Kills People All The Time" sidebar out of the final draft.

Regardless, there is a big list of penalties and whether something is or isn't a Breaking Point doesn't really change based on your views, all that changes is whether you will or won't get a penalty for it:
>Note that a breaking point is not necessarily something that the character considers wrong. A character might kill someone in a clear-cut, unambiguous case of self-defense, but the experience is probably still a breaking point, even if the player (and the character) feels the act was entirely justified Actions take a toll on the psyche, regardless of whether the actions were righteous.

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Hey guys, I'm playing 1e Changeling and rolled randomly for a character and ended up with an Ogre Gristlegrinder. I'm having trouble finding art for a huge fat guy with scary teeth, preferably in some kind of butcher's outfit. Any chance you guys got art? Will share what I've got.

>>48689067
I literally stated "this is a fan theory". I didn't say it was fact. It's a character deliberately presented as a mystery.
>Storytelling Notes: Melanie does not fully understand what has happened or how to free herself. She knows that her body is asleep somewhere, but doesn’t know if she can get back to it or how. She is young and scared, and likely not aware of how long she has been separated from her body. Still, she’s smart and determined, even if she assumes that any Hero she meets will help her get back to her body.
>Melanie is a truly strange case. She should not, by rights, have been able to follow a Horror to its Lair, much less kill it. It is possible some outside force — another Beast, perhaps, or some other supernatural creature able to enter the Primordial Dream — used Melanie as a weapon and then left her adrift. Acting as a Hero provides her soul with the sustenance it needs to stop her drifting apart in the Dream, but if she were to return to her body, would she continue the fight? It’s never crossed her mind. She just wants to go home.
>Melanie breaks some of the assumptions about the Hero’s role in Beast, because she’s not a fanatical killer. She’s not nearly as self-centered as most of the Heroes that go hunting Beasts. She sustains herself by hunting in the Primordial Dream, much like Beasts do. A brood of Beasts could, of course, end her threat by killing her…but they could also help her get back to her body. At that point, would she continue her hunt?

I mean, that's clearly a concession, but honestly I think it's better that way. Although I will note that quite a few people who hated the first draft and wanted it changed *also* seem to be the kind of people who complain about things like the Divinity: Original Sin character design, or Tracer's ass pose...

>>48688958
>Thaddeus doesn't wear a fedora
What is with this fairy disguise

Question about The Apocalypse. Why do the do not just use condoms? No Metis and garou could still have sex.

>>48689176
Seems more like a High Integrity hitman. Low Integrity characters wouldn't really feel bad about killing.

>>48689215
He wears a trilby. That's what most fedoras actually are.
I own one
Also, tell me Thaddeus doesn't look like fucking Vergil from DmC.

>>48689235
a) it's magical werewolf spirit beast sex, not human flesh sex
b) No one likes the feel of a rubber
c) they don't make condoms for giant dog cock.

>>48689235
Knowing White Wolf of back in the day, they'll probably make a sidebar about how Metis are a supernatural curse so all methods of birth control would always fail on it.

>>48689258
>Seems more like a High Integrity hitman. Low Integrity characters wouldn't really feel bad about killing.

It's not the killing itself. Hitmen are romanticized in fiction, most people geting into it would have at least some notions of that implied lifestyle. The sudden realization that this is a job no different than admin would be a breaking point maybe

>>48689139
>Huh. I'll give you that. They left the "But My Character Kills People All The Time" sidebar out of the final draft.

Yeah. And even so. All it said was "horrific acts never really stop to scar the psyche".

Your typical movie-style pro hitman is going to have high Integrity, so he can keep on doing what he does.

>>48689475
He's going to have High Integrity because he's a protagonist character who acts professional and doesn't make a mess and probably has a heart of gold and high Willpower.
A Slasher will still be low Integrity, because they're a sociopath who does horrible things for the fun of it.

>>48689552
>A Slasher will still be low Integrity, because they're a sociopath who does horrible things for the fun of it.

That doesn't mean low Integrity. Integrity just measures how good you are at dealing with shit.

Eh. So since I apparently only read the preview of Beast, how do Heroes get created now?

>Zie doesn’t know which of them zie is, if
any, but zie feels something towards zir creator. Is it gratitude?
Is it hatred? Either way, when he left zir, overwrought with shame, zie followed, clutching a roughly worked soapstone carving that zie somehow knows was precious to one of zir, a thing that consumed much of zie’s time. It whispers to zir that zie must aid him, that understanding will follow. Combo knows that before zir’s Creator will forgive zir, he must forgive himself.

I just wanted you to know that as a non-native English speaker who doesn't even have grammatical gender in his native tongue, this just looks plain wrong and retarded as fuck.

You anglo scum need to die before you ruin your own language for good.

>>48689860
>You anglo scum need to die before you ruin your own language for good.

They did that when they threw out thou.
Stupid imprecise language bullshit..

>>48689860
>>48689886
It's okay, English makes up by having a hundred stupid ass fucking useless grammatical tenses. Sensible languages can easily make do with three.

>>48689782
Exceptional success on Feeding

>>48689988
So. Still victims?

>>48689860

But really, they should've at least put their special snowflake pronouns in the glossary if they insist on using them.

I bet this just confuses a lot of people.

Especially since in this example, the Created is made from several dead throngmates, so "them/they" would've been perfectly fine.

>>48689782
Same way Beasts do. Some people are just more in touch with the Primordial Dream.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/zjqk0m
Not the whole book, just the Hero section

>>48689860
Actually, as Yossarian pointed out, they got the non-standard pronouns wrong. They use a zie when they meant a zir.
zie=he/she, zir=his/her.
>Either way, when he left zir, overwrought with shame, zie followed, clutching a roughly worked soapstone carving that zie somehow knows was precious to one of zir, a thing that consumed much of zie’s time.
>Either way, when Combo's creator left her, overwrought with shame, she followed, clutching a roughly worked soapstone carving that she knows was precious to one of her [presumably one of zir former bodypart owners], a thing that consumed much of she's[sic] time"
Also, goddamnit Combo is creepy. Even aside from my assumption of confusing genitals (since hermaphrodite OC donut steels are the only people I see using those pronouns), it is a promethean made from someone's dead friends. I get that that's completely in theme, and a thing a Frankenstein might do, but that is SUPER FUCKING DISCONCERTING.

>>48689886
>>48689944
Counterpoint: English is the best language precisely because fuck you, English does what it wants, if you get in its way it'll beat you over the head and loot your body for neologisms.

>>48689988
No.

>>48689782
They're born, and skim the surface of the Primordial Dream, but don't delve deep into it like Beasts do. In the past, they tended to be treated as psychics, because they knew the warning signs that meant a monster was coming.
Nowadays, they just search for the problems in the Dream, and some of them home in on Beasts instead of realizing that it's just inherently flawed.

The book gives an analogy of Heroes placing their palm flat on the surface of a large pool of water; their hand doesn't get wet, but they can still feel the water quiver. Anything disturbing the water is going to get their hand wet, though, and might even submerge it. Beasts, as a factor of their very existence, disturb the water, but so do bad dreams in general.
Most Heroes feel the quivering of the water and either ignore it or learn about it, or something else, but they mostly all understand that whatever the disturbance is, it has nothing to do with them.
The Heroes that Beasts encounter lack that awareness, and feel the quivering of the water as a call to action directed at themselves, personally.

>>48689988
>>48690025
Ignore that guy, he's wrong.

>>48689860

I'm not mad at the fact they used the Zie pronoun, I'm mad that this paragraph seems to have been written with the express purpose of putting as many pronouns as possible in 3 lines of text. Switch a few pronouns for the character's name and move a few parts around and I'm sure you could convey the same feeling with only 4-5 zie/zir instead of fucking 13

>>48690028
"them/they" would not have conveyed the fact that they're a strange and alien thing. They shouldn't need to put them in the glossary. You already know what it means.

>>48690041
This is definitely true, though true of most uses of pronouns.

>>48690031
>Counterpoint: English is the best language precisely because fuck you, English does what it wants, if you get in its way it'll beat you over the head and loot your body for neologisms.

American Exceptionalism now?

>>48690041
>>48690081
>This is definitely true, though true of most uses of pronouns.
The reason in that comparison above I gave Combo female pronouns was because using male pronouns for Combo and Combo's creator would have been even more confusing.
Writing a scene with two people of the same gender is difficult without using proper nouns or epithets.

And it's bad enough in English, with two, maybe three grammatical genders. Someone said their language has only one. I can't fathom that.

>>48690128
It's not just US English that does that. Even before America was a thing, English was a bastard language made of driftwood, detritus, and looting.
There's a reason we call the animal a "cow" and the meat "beef"; the terms come from two separate languages.

>>48690041

I got mad about it because I got confused.

The overuse of pronouns just obfuscated the text for me and made it harder to understand.

>>48690081
I already know that they are strange and alien.

The use of whatever zie/zir is doesn't serve a purpose.

I can also guarantee you that if I showed this text to most of my friends here in Eastern Europe, they would get confused the same way I was, and it would make it harder for them to concentrate on understanding it.

Most of the time these books don't get translated to the local language, and most countries in the world don't get their panties in a bunch about pronouns, so it's utterly pointless in my opinion when we have a readily available, fitting alternative, which can be understood by anyone.

>>48690155
The English generally don't claim their language is the best. Neither do the Canadians nor the Aussies.

Does anyone have a pdf of Beast? I sorta wanna read into it now

>>48690031

>pronouns in these games

Well fuck a duck. Where have I been?
Furthermore, how can I get back?

>>48677780
>What's a Paladin?
Wait a goddamn second
Stop shitposting Cam

>>48690207
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=beast+the+primordial+pdf

>>48690216
It's one character who has no idea what gender they are. The main reason being is that they are a Frankenstein, made from mixed-up corpses, of both genders.

>>48690161
>The overuse of pronouns just obfuscated the text for me and made it harder to understand.

Exactly. In the fiction anthology, there's a character (Zero, from Some Running Night) who uses zie pronouns but the text is written very differently, and I had no trouble reading it or accepting the pronouns.

>>48680959
>So an anon in the previous thread asked what would happen if the Tremere had diablerised Tzimisce instead of Salout.

Not that Anon, but:

I heard they used Tzimisce blood for their first experiments, so it wouldn't be such a biggie.

Also let's not forget Koldunic Sorcery.
I think it's possible that they can use Thaumaturgy only because of that.

So diablerizing Tzimisce himself would only raise another question: would that boost Thaumaturgy or would it be replaced by Vicissitude?
... Or could the Tzimisce blood mix the two Disciplines into a strange, new horror?
Who knows?

Imagine an Old Clan Tzimisce style, Dracula-esque breed of vampires.
That's another option.

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>Check Investigation rules
>First line
>No hard answers
Now this is some retarded shit. How are you supposed to trust the GM when solving a mystery when you know that there's actually no answer to it?

>>48690333
You're not understanding it correctly.
It doesn't mean "there's no answer", it means "don't plan the mystery out ahead of time and drop specific clues in the scene for the players to find; leave the answer open-ended so that you can adjust things to fit what the players learn"

>>48690207
Isn't it already in the pastebin?
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ulvt0w

>>48690374
>When they succeed, ask them, “What do you find?” and let their answers inform the direction of your story.
How the fuck should the players know what they find?

>>48690333
Maybe it would help if you read beyond the first line.

>>48690264
>made from mixed-up corpses, of both genders.
Of their creator's throngmates.
That's some seriously creepy "ALL MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD... so I'll put them together" shit.

Maybe it just never dawned on me until then just how fucking unsettling being a Frankenstein is until put that way.

>>48690374
In other words, there are no mysteries, either. Just feelgood narrativist Fate bullshit where people make up the plot as they go and then complain when it comes out a jumbled mess. But at least nobody should ever feel like they've missed a clue! God forbid your game not be inclusive to stupid people by forcing them to think about shit.

>>48690469
>Of their creator's throngmates.
>That's some seriously creepy "ALL MY FRIENDS ARE DEAD... so I'll put them together" shit.
>Maybe it just never dawned on me until then just how fucking unsettling being a Frankenstein is until put that way.

Which is a big reason as to why Combo is so damn conflicted about herself.

>>48690524
Don't you mean schpleerself, you insensitive cis scum?

>>48690591
Themself then.
Fuck you.

I swear, you guys are even more touchy than tumblr feminists.

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>>48690623
I kek'd. Good reply

>>48690455
Because you've given them clues. If the players decide the clues point to The School Marm, that means she's the killer. You don't plan for it to have been Old Man Jenkins and then let them spin their wheels on something that isn't interesting by pursuing the School Marm as a suspect.

You don't have an answer when you set out.

>>48690623
>>48690591
>>48690524
zirself, actually.
>I swear, you guys are even more touchy than tumblr feminists.
Just making sure, since this is 4chan, but you do realize that they're being sarcastic and asinine when they say things like "schpleerself, you insensitive cis scum", right?

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>>48690676
>schpleerself

Oh fuck i'm an idiot

>>48690676
>Just making sure, since this is 4chan, but you do realize that they're being sarcastic and asinine when they say things like "schpleerself, you insensitive cis scum", right?

I'm not really sure. A lot of people really get their panties in a twist when they see something they consider too "progressive".

>>48690676
>but you do realize that they're being sarcastic and asinine when they say things like "schpleerself, you insensitive cis scum", right?
I don't care, I still want to see them get their skulls bashed in with rocks.

>>48690676
>If the players decide the clues point to The School Marm, that means she's the killer.
This is the worst way to handle a mystery. I'd rather fail the investigation by my own incompetence than have there be no actual answer at all.

>>48690676
>Because you've given them clues. If the players decide the clues point to The School Marm, that means she's the killer. You don't plan for it to have been Old Man Jenkins and then let them spin their wheels on something that isn't interesting by pursuing the School Marm as a suspect.
>You don't have an answer when you set out.

Which sucks. It means you can't make a murder mystery and have the players piece things together.

It also means you can't plan ahead.

It sucks.

>>48690819
B-but Apocalypse World says that's how things work! Isn't Apocalypse World what all the cool kids like nowadays? So what if the game was built from the ground up around certain concepts, surely we could transplant them easily into our own that wasn't?

>>48690819

Just do like everyone else and ignore the whole investigation system. It'll save you a few merits for interesting stuff

>>48690890
I know. I do.
Because it sucks.

>>48690701
No, that's definitely happening. I was pointing out that this is mockery, not sincere. They don't actually think that way, they're making fun of the people they think think that way.

>>48690718
Good for you.
Here's a site for you
https://www.reddit.com/r/killthosewhodisagree/

>>48690819
>You can't
What's stopping you?

>>48690872
That's not even an Apocalypse World thing. If anything, they're ripping off Trail of Cthulhu. Or any number of other games that give the same advice, because otherwise investigation would turn into "who can read the ST's mind" instead of something more interesting. Shit, "don't make plans" is something OSR suggests.

>>48690913
It only sucks if you're too dumb

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>>48690872
>Apocalypse World, Dungeon World and that godforsaken Monsterheart
>"narrative" games
>shove a short list of narrowly defined character classes and tell you that you can be one of these and nothing else
Jokes, farces the lot of them. Why would anyone create a narrative system that wouldn't let you run anything you wanted right out of the box?

>>48690979
>If anything, they're ripping off Trail of Cthulhu
Anon, no one should ever, ever have anything to do with Trail of Cthulhu, much less rip it off. That game is like a fucking course at how not to game design.

>>48690979
>It only sucks if you're too dumb
Too dumb?
Wow. Big one.

The Investigation system is designed to put the players in the driving seat, and have them say where the story is going. The problem with that is that unless you let the players in on the story, and all the twists, they'll most likely come to the wrong conclusion, which the system makes right.

>>48690979
>That's not even an Apocalypse World thing. If anything, they're ripping off Trail of Cthulhu. Or any number of other games that give the same advice, because otherwise investigation would turn into "who can read the ST's mind" instead of something more interesting. Shit, "don't make plans" is something OSR suggests.
You can see this guy plays Trail of Cthulhu. This is not a thing that should happen or indeed, does happen in any group with a brain between the members (or a capable GM, for that matter). The solution is not to tear down the whole investigation part of the game and replace it with goody points.

>>48690996
>I don't understand something so it's terrible
Please leave the internet

>>48691055
No it's not. This is literally the first time I've heard anything negative about Gumshoe at all.

>>48691069
No. It is literally and explicitly for the opposite of that. You don't need to "let the players in on it" because the story is whatever they think the story is. There is no wrong conclusion, that is literally the point. That is what the book specifically tells you. You're thinking of it as if there needs to be one True Solution, as if it were a real mystery and the players were either solving it or not. But it's not. It's a story. It's the episode of Law & Order or CSI or Monk or Psych. Whatever outlandish solution the players think is true either IS true or turns out to be a red herring to lead them astray.

You don't hide clues they can't find, you don't set in stone who's wearing the rubber mask. You don't make the players spend six sessions going off on a tangent just because they're not smart enough to read your mind and understand the clues you feel you artfully placed to lead to the "right" solution.
You roll with what the players tell you they think the answer is, because that's the answer all the clues point to as far as they're concerned.

And, yes, you can always ignore that, but that's not newbie advice.

>>48691087
What?

>>48691256
>Please leave the internet
Make me, faggot. You don't need to run an extensive chemical analysis on a pile of shit to recognize it as a pile of shit.

>>48691363
Just because you lack basic comprehension skills doesn't make something shit.

>>48691256
>No. It is literally and explicitly for the opposite of that. You don't need to "let the players in on it" because the story is whatever they think the story is. There is no wrong conclusion, that is literally the point. That is what the book specifically tells you. You're thinking of it as if there needs to be one True Solution, as if it were a real mystery and the players were either solving it or not. But it's not. It's a story. It's the episode of Law & Order or CSI or Monk or Psych. Whatever outlandish solution the players think is true either IS true or turns out to be a red herring to lead them astray.
>You don't hide clues they can't find, you don't set in stone who's wearing the rubber mask. You don't make the players spend six sessions going off on a tangent just because they're not smart enough to read your mind and understand the clues you feel you artfully placed to lead to the "right" solution.
>You roll with what the players tell you they think the answer is, because that's the answer all the clues point to as far as they're concerned.
>And, yes, you can always ignore that, but that's not newbie advice.

But if I want to make a mystery? How can I make sure the players don't de-rail it completely?

>>48691602
By not having rails in the first place.

Alternatively, by not taking the investigation rules word-for-word, and not leading the players off on a tangent when they follow the wrong clues.

You can still have an intended villain in mind, but if the players do something other than what your established route expects them to do, be prepared to adapt and move shit around.

>>48691700
>Alternatively, by not taking the investigation rules word-for-word, and not leading the players off on a tangent when they follow the wrong clues.
No, clearly everyone must follow the storytelling advice perfectly to the obviously-a-suggestion letter.

>>48691602
>How can I make sure the players don't de-rail it completely?
It's almost as if they're giving you advice on how to do that but you're not reading it as intended and instead jumping to ridiculous conclusions to the point that I'm not even sure what you're confused about in the first place.

>>48691514
Aw, would you look at that, the little summerfag is getting upset that people don't like the smell of his shit.

>>48691733
>It's almost as if they're giving you advice on how to do that but you're not reading it as intended and instead jumping to ridiculous conclusions to the point that I'm not even sure what you're confused about in the first place.

I don't have the book! I'm just trying to figure stuff out from those who have read it!

>>48691087
Oh boy. It's that mentality.

>No player should ever fail anything. That's not inclusive to losers, who might be triggered. When a roll is called for, have everyone roll the dice to feel like big boys, throw them off the table then have them just describe how their characters succeed so that there aren't any hard feelings.

>>48691256
>No it's not. This is literally the first time I've heard anything negative about Gumshoe at all.
I'm very sorry about your deafness, but it can't always be an excuse now can it?

>>48691840
>That's not inclusive to losers, who might be triggered
Losers have feelings too, dammit! End achievementism!

>>48691773
Anon, I've in all likelihood been here longer than you and in all likelihood will be here long after you're gone.
I don't even play most of the games you complained about, I just understand that they don't work the way that you're alleging they work, and even from a brief snippet you show that you don't actually know anything about them, other than a juvenile mocking of games you don't like the sound of.

>>48691782
Well read the book, then. None of us can summarize the whole subsystem.

>>48691840
>>48691903
Oh boy, it's that mentality.
>Everyone who doesn't play the game like I do is a whiny ~SJW~ who needs to be coddled.
No, you idiot, it's not about people not wanting to fail because they're babies, it's about the fact that if the players fail, nothing happens. What good is a story where nothing happens? Your characters don't find the ~clue~. What happens now? Either they lose and the game is over because you weren't clever enough to think of something other than a binary fail/win scenario OR you could have success on trivial scenes be guaranteed with more success furthering the plot more.

In other words, give players one clue for free and let them learn more information based on how they roll.

Every time someone complains, I always imagine them being the type of player I've encountered who wants you to give them things. The kind who would complain if they missed something anyway, but for some reason don't want the game to "coddle" them. The kind who bitches when things don't go their way.

>>48690482

>please play my poorly thought out logic path and pixel hunt

9 times out of 10 the ST planning out the mystery tends to be barely above 90s adventure game design tier.

>>48691928
>Anon, I've in all likelihood been here longer than you and in all likelihood will be here long after you're gone.
That's true, the board was founded by /b/tards with delusions of intellectual superiority.

>blah blah blah blah
I'm sorry anon, but I have read the rules. They work exactly as I "allege" they do. And you know what? A "narrative" game that shoehorns me into a narrow role isn't something I'm interested in.

here's to hoping macfarland isn't in charge of deviant
or anywhere near it
we need some well crafted systems

>>48690996

Because GURPS already exists. The 80s and 90s have a wealth of generic systems you can use to play anything you want out of the box. If you're patient enough, just wait a few years for the pendulum to come back around and universal RPG systems will get popular again, instead of focused ones.

>>48692005
>Because GURPS already exists.
Ah, but GURPS isn't narrative.

Promethean 2nd edition. Dafuq is a Refinement Condition? Is it a permanent Condition you have as long as you stay on that refinement? I can't find an explanation for them anywhere

>>48692032
I put Refinement Condition into the search bar and they come up in the "class" descriptions

>>48691965
He isn't. Dave is.

>>48692029

Fine. Univeralis, then, if we're still going to use decade old gaming lingo. Point is, people aren't making those now because people are still interested in making games around tight, focuses narraratives. By 2020 or so, they'll be tired of that and we'll probably see more OSR inspired games and a revival of the "everything in one" systems like GURPS and HERO.

>>48692070
Page number?

>>48691964
Just because a game doesn't do what you want it to doesn't make it bad. The world doesn't revolve around you. Just because something is narrative doesn't mean it's supposed to be universal or freeform. You not understanding what "narrative" means doesn't make it somehow badwrong.

>>48691965
Goddamnit you Shiftless bastard, stop being so fucking stupid. McFarland has nothing to do with Deviant and despite what you think he's not the fucking devil.

>>48692005
I don't think the pendulum will come back. And besides, a lot of the non-rules lite systems these days are very much "universal", they're just given a specific packaging and focus because that helps branding. Like M&M. Or Apocalypse World, actually. Hell, Storypath.

>>48692070
>>48692032
It doesn't outright say it, but it seems pretty clear that the Refinement Condition is a Condition you get for being part of that Refinement.

>>48691965
He isn't.
DaveB is in charge of it.

>>48692032
>>48692070
Presumably, if it isn't explained anywhere else in the book, it's similar to the Agenda Conditions from Demon; it's a persistent condition that you can gain a beat for once per session, and otherwise gives you a power of some sort, as long as you're using that Refinement.

>>48692114
Refinement Condition: Masked — Mimics are talented at
moving among humanity without revealing their true nature.
By spending a point of Pyros when he inflicts Disquiet, he
may delay its onset (p. 173) until the end of the scene.

>p44

etc.

>>48692127
>Just because a game doesn't do what you want it to doesn't make it bad.
And how many guys do you have to tell that to before you step back and say "hey, maybe it is shit"?

>Mutants&Masterminds
>narrative
Buddy, you need to get your reality checked.

>>48692173
I didn't say it was narrative, I said that Universal systems aren't unpopular.

>And how many guys do you have to tell that to before you step back and say "hey, maybe it is shit"?
It isn't shit. You being dumb doesn't make it shit. Just because you think it should be something other than what it wants doesn't mean anything. It has solid rules and does what it wants to do.

>>48692173
>M&M
>not narrative
>villain can literally just escape "because that's what villains do" regardless of whether or not the heroes could have actually caught him

Yeah ok.

>>48692209
>Mutants&Masterminds
>universal
So you were still wrong, just not in the way I first thought you were.

>>48692237
>Lets you play a space-man in the future, a wizard, or a normal mundane human, with absolutely no alterations to the rules
>Even has books explicitly about how to use the system for various sorts of settings
>Not universal
No, you're just a fucking idiot

Well, I got no replies last time I posted my homebrews. May I'll have better luck this time.
Samedi
Clan: Nosferatu
Bloodline Disciplines: Celerity, Nightmare, Obfuscate, Vodoo
* Twilight Sense: by spending a point of Vitae, the Samedi may see and communicate with beings in Twilight for the rest of the scene.
** Ghostly Familiar: the Samedi has "befriended" a Rank 1 ghost (created following the normal rules). By spending a point of Willpower and rolling Presence+Occult+Vodoo, the ghost appears in Twilight close to them. It treats the character as an anchor and must obey their commands for the rest of the scene, after which it vanishes.
*** Cursed Touch (Dexterity+Occult+Vodoo, contested by Resolve+Composure): activates by spending a point of Vitae and touching the target. It loses a point of Willpower for each exceeding success obtained by the Samedi on the activation roll.
**** Raise Zombie (Intelligence+Occult+Vodoo): by spending 2 points of Vitae and making it wear a specially made talisman around its neck, the Samedi animates a corpse as an undead minion. It retains all Physical skills and attributes it had in life, but may not use Mental or Social skills. It can understand simple commands from its master. It is immune to mind control and reduces all damage to bashing, but crumbles if it suffers a single point of damage from fire, if the talisman is taken from it, if its creator enters torpor, or at the next sunrise. The Samedi may spend a Vitae daily to prolong its existence.
***** Friends from the Other Side (Presence+Occult): the Samedi summons vengeful ghosts (WIP).
Boon: Despite their appearance, the Samedi are lively fellows. By spending a point of Willpower, they may ignore their clan Bane for the current scene.
Weaknesses: Due to their closeness to death, the Samedi cannot cause either the Swooning or Scarred Conditions by feeding.

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>>48692262
>excels at capeshit and other comic book mainstays, but not much else
>can't do dungeon crawls well
>forget about social combat
>universal

>>48691928
>if the players fail, nothing happens.
Spoken like a true shitty GM. A good GM would know that this isn't and shouldn't be the case and would've played that way since D&D. Anyone who needs a book like gumshoe to tell them that then treats it like it's a fucking revelation is a fucking moron.

>>48692314
>can't do dungeon crawls
It's literally fucking d20.
They even used the M&M core rules to make a D&D knock off.

>>48692347
You're doing that thing where you're covering everyone in straw because you'd rather call other people an idiot instead of have an adult conversation.

>>48692127

It will. As the "story game" and "OSR" movements reach their height, someone is bound to look over the landscape and say, "there must be some game we all can play". All it needs is a Steve Jackson or even a Ryan Dancey type to pull it off.

"This is the last game you will ever need" is still a goal on many a gamer's mind.

>>48692364
Yeah, I read that book. It still doesn't do dungeon crawls well because you're not allowed to just pick up a magic sword and be a more dangerous combatant all willy-nilly.

>>48692215
>A game that includes GM fiat is narrativist
Presumably, the only games you wouldn't consider narrativist are boardgames? Talisman, maybe?

>>48692402
A game that bakes in GM fiat as a core part of the game's economy (hero points) is narrativist, yes.

>>48692364

It's not d20. Aspel, you're doing that thing where you're pretending to know how games you don't play work. Go back to browbeating people into liking Beast.

>>48692415
>all modern games are narrative

>>48692347
I've been doing that since I was 8, and I didn't even finish reading the D&D books before taking up GMing. Isn't it just common sense?

>>48692450
You were GMing at the age of 8?

Anyone have that pic of Paradox Dracula?

>>48692400
I feel like you don't actually know how books work.

>>48692402
>>48692431
Games that have specific mechanics tied to narrative concepts (like Hero Points or bribing the players with them) are at least in some way narrative, and most modern games understand that even a heavily simulationist game is more interesting if the players have some amount of agency in the story.

>>48692474
Of course he has. His dad also works at Nintendo and he got caught Mew.

>>48692487
>I feel like you don't actually know how books work.
Do you? Do you even understand the basics of the system we're discussing, you flatulent hypocrite?

>>48692474
I live in Israel. Back during the 90's, when roleplaying games really turned into a thing here, D&D was marketed primarily at young children. This resulted in a generation of roleplayers who started either very young or never at all. Since Israel doesn't really have a native RPG industry it still hasn't grown much, but you do see a slight trend the past few years. Many people I've met got into it during army service. It's something to do while on guard duty.

>>48692450

Nothing is just "common sense" in gaming. That's why rules exist in the first place.

>>48692487

Genre terms mean things, and sometimes a game doesn't fit with a certain kind of genre, even if a game with a similar system does happen to fit into the genre.

>>48692430
>It's not d20
It literally uses a d20+mod system
It literally is d20
It's not D&D, because there are no classes, but it's definitely d20

>>48692519
http://archive.is/SKiSe
To the best of my knowledge, this is a chronological list including literally all official roleplaying products released in Hebrew (until 2013). As you can see, most are translations of the various D&D books. Of the entire list, maybe 6 books were originally written in Hebrew.

>>48692550
>Nothing is just "common sense" in gaming. That's why rules exist in the first place.
"The game shouldn't grind to a halt if someone failed a roll" isn't something that should be written in any rules, it's bloody fucking obvious to anyone who can even theoretically imagine a running game. You don't put in the rules "don't throw the book out the window", either. You assume that everyone around the table is a functioning human being.

>>48692660
Tell that to 2hu and the people who praise him for pointing out things that go against common sense

>>48677665
>Apocalypse tribe novels 1 and 6 still missing

No one ever uploaded them?

>>48692919
Whose 2hu?

>>48693171
Oh, you sweet summer child

>>48692919
Do you really want to bring touhoufag up again? Last time, you couldn't rebuke a single thing he's said.

>>48693184
I wouldn't exactly call it a fault not to know him.

>>48693235
All men should know suffering.

Fuck you guys, I'm gonna go join the Sabbat.

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>>48693585
>yfw you're a sabbat ghoul

>>48693628
i'd be ok with being a revenant, though.

>>48693662
I don't think the Sabbat is.

>Not playing Beast
>Not playing a single dad, with an innocent daughter
>Not protecting her from the boogie man in the closet, because you told Greg your house is off limits
>Not paying off your changling friend to make sure she has sweet dreams
Do you guys even Horror Dad?

>>48693705
>implying you don't molest your daughter in her dreams because you can do no wrong

>>48693705
I wanna be the hero and kill all the fucking beasts.

I'm the hero of the story I don't need to be saved.

>>48693696
then why do they keep all of them?

>>48693759
>still going off the first draft

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>>48692519

>>48692519
>It's something to do while on guard duty.

That seems dangerously lax guard work honestly. Aren't you ostensibly supposed to be keeping an eye on whatever you're guarding?

>>48686485

You're welcome.

I also think the Blood Brothers and Gargoyles would still exist in this new timeline...

After all, the Gargoyles would obviously never truly become free. With the Tremere never joining the Camarilla, they subsequently never agree to any pacts or deals concerning the complete halt of any experimentation and brainwashing of other kindred.

As such, Gargoyle Slaves would very much be a thing, though I can imagine that due to the Tzimisce blood, the Gargoyles would be less "stone"-like, and be more akin to a flayed, bat-winged corpse that'd be covered in bone plates for added protection.

And let's be honest, the Blood Brothers would totally fit the Tremere's menagerie of blood-bound servants. Rank-and-file soldiers that all look the same and follow orders unquestioningly, without any hesitation? The Tremere'd jizz themselves, if they could.

I can also see how the surviving Tzimisce would be fucking affronted by the Blood Brothers; whereas the Tzimisce would use their fleshcrafting to make themselves truly unique, they'd see the uniform and completely identical Blood Brothers as not just an insult, but a heresy against everything that Vicissitude is meant to be.

Hey fellas, could you help me out?

I remember reading in HtR about this one old Hunter, who had the highest rating in True Faith. But I can't remember his fucking name, just bits and details about him, like how all the vampires were forbidden from ever going after him.

>>48694776

First ones I thought of were:

>http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Sullivan_Dane

and

>http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Caiaphas_Smith

>>48694858

It's the second one I was talking about, Caiaphas Smith.

Thank you so much!

>>48694505
90% of guard duty means hanging out at the barracks being "on alert". You only need to do patrols every few hours, and it rotates. There are many, many eight hour stretches of nothing to fill.

>>48678669
Here it is

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire:_The_Requiem_Second_Edition

>The sharks you swim with aren’t the only ones out there. Your Kindred are the smart, sexy vampires of pop culture,

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>>48694887
See, now I feel like those mooks I ruthlessly kill in various videogames when I'm sneaking around didn't deserve it or something. Truly a monster

>>48694993
There's nothing quite like the feeling of going on your first ever patrol in basic training, spending a couple hours in the middle of the night all by yourself walking back and forth around the camp and then suddenly realizing in the midst of all that boredom that if there was some secret agent sneaking around, you'd be the guy whose neck they casually snap to make an entrance.

>>48695140
What's really fucked up is that Israelis have this experience at the age when most Americans' biggest concern in life is whether or college'll be "just like in American Pie, man!"

>>48695140
You seem to have made it out okay, anon. No arabic Snake got you, that's good.

The Brochure got updated, with some stuff about Pugmire, Cavaliers, Trinity, and Scarred Lands.

>>48694991
Ah! You mean like the vampires of Anne Rice and Laurel K Hamilton?

>>48695909
I just remember seeing the quote when Blood and Smoke first came out and having a panic attack that they Twilighted up the game.

So, what's Changeling like? What's its tone? What are the major differences between oWoD and nWoD Changeling?

A little while back I asked what system to use for a campaign inspired by Fables or Once Upon a Time, and someone recommended Changeling.

>>48695945
Seriously? People thought Twilight when the idea of "pop culture sexy vampires" came up?
Not Anita Blake or Vampire Chronicles, or motherfucking Carmilla?

>>48695950
Yeah. You want Dreaming for that.
Too bad, it's the inferior system.

Dreaming is all about the magic in real life, seeing the beauty in everything and clinging to the wonder.

Lost is all about trying to piece your life back together, living every day in fear that the Others might come for you any day, and doing all you can to delay that day.

There is more to them, of course, a lot more. But those are the core things.

>>48695985
I actually swore the fuck off of Vampire stuff for, like, a long time after Twilight came out

Like, they out-fagged Anne Rice

I am *just* getting back into VtR and Vampire stuff

>>48695985
Even Dracula is about a handsome foreigner come to steal European women.
Also, I like the contrast:
>The sharks you swim with aren’t the only ones out there. Your Kindred are the smart, sexy vampires of pop culture, but you are haunted by the Strix -- the grisly, demon-possessed corpses of folklore.

>>48695950
oWoD:
You realize that you were a faerie all along, and now you work to keep yourself interested by doing faerie stuff and going on adventures. I actually don't think it has any greater goals than that; you just go out and adventure in it's arguably rather large setting and keep up the whimsy, being threatened by Banality and the dose of reality it brings.
nWoD:
You were kidnapped by faeries, and now you work together with other changelings to keep a structure in place to prevent them from taking you again. 1e suffered a lot from "woe is me" syndrome and shitty mechanics, even if everyone loved the concept, but 2e seems like it will fix that a bit. Most of the drama comes from the interplay and politicking of people turned into faerie tale creatures making secret Courts and Freeholds in the modern world.

>>48696008
Honestly, I'd suggest that Lost is the best one to use for something like Fables or Once Upon a Time. 2e's got a Freehold creation subsystem that could very much be used for some gated community or village in upstate New York.

Sure, the Changelings are people kidnapped and changed instead of who were born as faerie tale characters, but it's not like Dreaming's Chryssalis is any closer to Fables. Plus, the Antagonist is more like a True Fae than anything in Dreaming.

>>48696028
People who complain about how something was "out-fagged" are generally the kind of people who shouldn't be going near vampires at all.

>>48696184
>Honestly, I'd suggest that Lost is the best one to use for something like Fables or Once Upon a Time. 2e's got a Freehold creation subsystem that could very much be used for some gated community or village in upstate New York.
>Sure, the Changelings are people kidnapped and changed instead of who were born as faerie tale characters, but it's not like Dreaming's Chryssalis is any closer to Fables. Plus, the Antagonist is more like a True Fae than anything in Dreaming.

True, but the central conflict of Lost is rather intrusive.

>>48696250
The central concept is that the characters are lost and alone and need to join up with other freaks to protect themselves not just from a horrible external force that wants to drag them back to the storybook land ruled by evil, but also to support and protect each other from a modern world where they have no identity, experience, or existence and need those things to at least be on paper.

Did I describe Lost or Fables?

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>>48696184
>People who complain about how something was "out-fagged" are generally the kind of people who shouldn't be going near vampires at all.

Found the fag

>>48696462
Anon, this is 2016, there's nothing wrong with being a fag.

Now we're all afraid of being a "cuck" for some reason.

>>48696184
Dreaming is all about cultivating and finding beauty and creativity and imagination in a world that is stagnating and losing its creativity. The world is becoming a more banal place, creativity is stagnating and eventually, that will kill the Dreaming, the source of imagination -- and the life of the Fae. In Dreaming, you are a Fae soul in a human body, a 'last resort' to keep your Fae soul, your dreamstuff soul, from being destroyed by Banality.

In the modern times, the Sidhe, the lords of the fae, returned from Arcadia during the biggest shared event that sparked imagination and wonder in humanity - the moon landing. And now, stuck in bodies, they have taken back up rule of the Fae, the Nobility above the commoners.

Dreaming is all about a hidden medieval society of magic and monsters and honor and nobility behind the modern world, with what is called 'chimerical reality' overlaid onto the real world. Changelings see both -- the world of magic, with dragons flying in the sky and your 7 year old friend Jimmy as a Strength 5 7" tall troll. And the world is a dangerous place, because Banality kills, with age comes more Banality, and even other supernaturals can be so stagnant and banal as to hurt you by their very presence. And if your fae soul dies, you just become a dull, drone human again.

>>48696785
Dreaming can be fun. It has a unique magic system (made up of Actor, or target; Realm, or area of effect; and Prop, or affecting items), though the character options are... weird. Your choices are Childing, which are in human bodies aged 7-13, Wilders which are aged 14-20, and Grumps, which are aged 21 and older on average. You have different amounts of max and starting Glamour, Banality and other factors of the character based on the type of character you choose, and the fae kiths are mostly Euro-centric with a few odd things (like the Nunnehi, or the Native American fae, and other things). The big conflict goes on between the Nobles and the Commoners, as well as at times the Seelie and Unseelie fae natures. Plus chimerical monsters, insane fae, people who destroy Glamour by being around it, and the Autumn People.

>>48696839
Actually, here...

http://changeling.wenchipedia.com/

>>48696839
>Dreaming can be fun.
I never said it couldn't. I just said that it doesn't really have much in the way of stuff to do, other than be Glamourous.

I hope the 20th Anniversary Edition of Dreaming is good. Neat game in there somewhere but it's janky and feels a bit too twee.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/608073-deviant-the-subtitle-discussion?p=946593#post946593

The Deviant splat, explained by DaveB himself.

>>48697864
Dave...Bautista?

>>48695167
And it fucking wasn't or like Undergrads or like Animal House

Dashed dreams

>>48697888

Yes. When Bautista is not wrestling or acting, he develops games for Onyx Path. He developed Mage 2e.

>>48697971
I knew I liked him.

>>48697888
Brookshaw.

>>48696587
lol ikr

Anyway, yes I said Twilight outfagged Anne Rice. How is that a problem?

>>48698045

It's really weird to see someone up in arms over how fey vampires are. Shit's always been pretty gay, especially in VtM, which might as well have been pure Anne Rice. Carmilla's so gay, she actually fucks women.

>>48698045
It's that you're still using "fag" as an insult, and that you're complaining vampires are too gay when they've always kind of had an air of sexual perversion about them since women blamed them for seducing them and getting them pregnant after they were widowed.

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>>48698120
I wasn't up in arms. As you said, Vampires and homoeroticism have gone hand and hand for a while. (was Carmilla the first one to dabble with homoeroticism? I remember someone tried to say it began with Dracula, but having read that book rather recently, I would disagree)

But wow. Twilight took it places. Not only was it faggy, but now it was *faggy*, feel me? I mean, Anne Rice's vamp and Carmilla were just regular faggy.

I thought the werewolves were the gayest.

>>48698249

Werewolves are bear-gay, vampires are twink-gay.

>>48698260
Where do Gangrel fit in there?

>>48698295
Hairy twinks?

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>>48698260
What system is "bi guy who mostly prefers tomboyish or maybe even slightly butch women?"

>>48698213

I mean, that's one way to describe "extremely sexless and Mormon", I suppose. Like that's pretty much the problem with it, Edward Cullen is that special Mormon boy that your family wants to hook you up with, all the way down to being a weird sex monster when you finally marry him.

>>48698331
Changeling

>>48698331

That's Mage as fuck, dude.

>>48698357
Lost or Dreaming?

>>48691773
Okay, I was out working and rehearsing, but did someone seriously just try to call Aspel a summerfag? Jesus shit.

>>48698357
>>48698366
Can you two please explain how those two systems actually match what that anon said? The gay vampire thing, I get. Less with the werewolf, but kind of. But without clarification, I feel like this is off the deep end.

>>48698399
Changelings are pretty LGBT but they're more straight than Werewolf and Vampire, they just play more with gender roles. So you could have a bi guy with a masculine girl, or a trap with a butch woman, or whatever.
>>48698373
Lost

>>48698399

Mage women are either sad voluptuous older women who wear shawls, tomboyish twenty somethings, or butchy thirtysomethings.

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>>48698343
I'm also being kind of a asshole, using 'fag' for gay and 'fag' for stupid and 'fag' for 4chan user all together.

The whole "taking the curse out of vampirism" Twilight pulled made me rage. Also the sparkles.

So, like, they have no reason to be mopey, and they sparkle, and they're gay. That's what I was trying to get at by "out-gay". Anne Rice's vampires are Freddy Mercury. Twilight is Backstreet Prince Gaga Manson.
After typing this, I believe I have lost braincells. Did I just type a stupid, or did any of that make sense?

>>48698213
There's literally nothing faggy about Twilight, other than being a romantic chick flick. It is literally anti-faggy, considering the author is a Mormon. You're just using "faggy" to mean "not fitting my ideals of masculinity", because as >>48698343 says, Edward is actually kind of sexless. In fact, he spends a large portion of the series trying not to have sex, or even engage in the vampire sexual metaphor of neckbiting. But because he's attractive, slender, and emotionally sensitive, he's "faggy".

Meanwhile in Anne Rice, the vampires are *literally* perverted sexual deviants who engage in all kinds of literal and metaphorical sex acts with members of any gender, and maintain a fey and alluring demeanour. Doesn't Louis or Lestat seduce the narrator of Interview With a Vampire? He's certainly *seductive*, and intentionally so, as opposed to Edward's poorly written restrained psuedosexual lust as written by an equally sexless middle aged Mormon woman.

Edward doesn't even dress androgynously, and whatsisface has some fucking... I don't know, Dawson Creek jawline going on. Edward Cullen looks like he's meant to sell underwear or blue jeans, not front a Japanese boyband. Cullen doesn't even look as "faggy" as something like N*Sync.

Jesus, am I so bored as to waste my time explaining this?
The answer is unfortunately yes.
Why has God forsaken me.

>>48698448
I don't know. Changeling is pretty queer, and really can be a big trans metaphor. But Vampires in pop culture have always been pretty gay, and definitely do those kinky things your pastor doesn't want you to know about, and Werewolves are big burly savage manly men in pop culture (so kind of a rapey metaphor to Vampire's seduction of the innocent), but specifically for WoD Werewolves, they've had this big taboo until WtF2e about makin' babies with each other. That's pretty gay.

Is there any critter in CofD / nWoD that can convert one type of energy into another (eg. vitae into essence)

>>48698399
Because mages are everything and everyone because they are the best?

>>48698541
>But because he's attractive, slender, and emotionally sensitive

But Anne Rice's vampires were that too, and I like them.

Well, Louis is. Mileage varies between those vampires,though.

(Meyer is Mormon? Huh. I did not know that at all)

>>48698642
The series is INCREDIBLY Mormon. I wouldn't be surprised if Twilight vampires all get their own planet when they die.

>>48698467
>>48698366
Mage is sexless nerds like Tesla. When they are interested in getting laid, they blame other people for hating them for their weird and often creepy hobbies.

>>48698533
People only complain about the sparkles because of how it's presented. I like to compare Dresden File's White Court Vampires (specifically the Raith) with Twilight Vampires to point out how presentation is important.

>Twilight
To start with, vampires don't match any sort of pop culture or folklore aspects other than drinking blood, but they don't even need to do that. If Twilight revealed that "vampires" were some kind of alien space infection that resulted in all those fancy changes and they were called "Vampires" because of the blood drinking and supernatural abilities, that'd be something that no one would really bat an eye at (several Scifi novels have done just that).
They hide because they're afraid of being killed, which is par for the course for even superpowerful diamond skinned vampires. People act like the sparkling is a sticking point, and, honestly, I think that's what it boils down to. If Twilight vampires didn't sparkle, then no one would care, and we could all focus solely on how it's a shitty story that romanticizes unhealthy fixations and emotional abuse, with Edward's stalking and Bella's attempts at self-harm for attention when he stops stalking her.

>>48698718

>Mage is sexless nerds like Tesla. When they are interested in getting laid, they blame other people for hating them for their weird and often creepy hobbies.

That's far too much projection you've got going on there.