Martial Abilities

File: WD---weak-spot.gif (105KB, 800x490px) Image search: [Google]

105KB, 800x490px

>>48655892
I would say Find Enemy Weak Spot would be quite important.

File: tumblr_nvjnpmLc9o1t0ple2o1_500.jpg (99KB, 500x332px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 500x332px

>>48655892
Color Spray and Magic Missile, obviously.

>>48655892

lifting insanely heavy shit

>>48655892
Teleportation, scent, inanimate object destruction, spider climb, blindsense, walk on water, limited flight, etc.

>>48655892

If magic can do everything, you either need to rethink the point of martials in the system or make it so magic can't actually do everything in order to allow other classes have a point.

>>48657356

>classes

And there, we have the root of the problem.

>>48657394
Wrong.

File: ANGRY.png (187KB, 1349x2421px) Image search: [Google]

187KB, 1349x2421px

>>48655892
Angry Carpentry

>>48657427

Only half wrong.

The perception is that magic can do literally anything from wiping your ass to literally just creating a minion who can outfight the fighter PC.

Nevermind how it's applied when its implied that every aspect of the setting is magic but the dude swinging a sword is a mundane nobody who can swing a metal stick and has no innate abilities other than swinging the metal stick.

Granted, this is highly dependant on the setting and some do it better than others but mostly I blame D&D for the creation of the flying windwalling wizard who can summon Solars to do his bidding while having sex with a goddess mid battle.

>>48655892
But wizards can't do anything. So your premise is false and your thread is nonsense.

>>48657394

Even without classes, magical abilities would need to be more limited so that martial abilities would have a point to them.

With or without classes, a system needs to be balanced or it generally just sucks. Sure, you can do anything with all these options available to you, but what's the point if some choices absolutely eclipse others? If people do not purposefully limit themselves based on power level to ensure an equal playing field for the game, then why would anyone choose anything outside of the most powerful options?

Balance is usually the job of the system to ensure a level playing field and a fun game, and when ensuring balance is shunted onto the responsibilities of the player, well, you're now running a game based on an honor system without system limitations. And when these abilities basically let you do basically anything... Well, you might as well be playing a narrative-driven story game because of how little a role the game mechanical actually play anymore. You're playing with dozens of pages of pointless bookkeeping that basically give you free reign, or free form, over everything.

File: javier-botet-5.jpg (24KB, 456x462px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 456x462px

>>48657356
Fair enough, I meant to say that magic is easily fluffed as doing everything.

>>48657560
Not the guy you're replying to, but yes. I agree. Now, assume I have a system I'm working on, and that I want to balance magic and martial stuff. There are no particular limits on what martials could accomplish, realism isn't necessary - what would be some cool and flavourful abilities martial characters could have?

>>48657579

It's hardly that I don't want the system to be balanced. I just find the idea of highly controlled roles to be stupid especially when they can't fit a concept you want within said role which is one of my gripes with systems like D&D.

"Oh, you want to be a fighter who can shape shift into a bear? You have to multiclass fighter and and druid!"

Or something stupid like that. For what it's worth, I appreciate the thought behind the concept of archetypes, i just wish they would make more options available that take bits and pieces from the other classes to give you a decent hybrid without having literally go outside your class to get things.

>>48657673
>"Oh, you want to be a fighter who can shape shift into a bear? You have to multiclass fighter and and druid!"
Or.... Or... maybe... you could play a werebear instead?

File: Tome of Battle.webm (2MB, 1280x528px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1280x528px

>>48657394
This
But also this>>48657310
If you want Martials to be cool and compete/keep up with the Super powered Demi-Gods that are the D&D Casters you need to either bring down casters or buff up martials to equally weeb levels of bull shit

Lets face it every time someone suggests martial do more than swing a sword with all the force a limp wristed neckbeard could muster someone comes out of the woodwork to call it WEEB forgetting entirely that the Wizard is basically Madara Uchiha from Naruto casting illusions, save or dies, save or suck, meteor storm as well as being able to buff themselves to be better fighters than fighters and at high enough level might even be a fucking Lich

If you want martial to be better let them do cool shit people shit on Tome of Battle but it helped to lessen the Martial Caster divide

>>48657757

Why? Why can't I have an archetype that's a druid/fighter hybrid?

File: Sad Robotnik.png (301KB, 700x429px) Image search: [Google]

301KB, 700x429px

It's stuff like this thread that make me think to myself "I wish more people played Mutants and Masterminds 3e".

>>48657594
Then beat up whoever's fluffing wizards and get that asshat to either issue a public apology or start fluffing martials the same way.

A starting point might be replacing all class skills with wizard-quality do-everything bullshit class options. >>48657647 , you might also be interested in this.

Barbarian:
Climb > Wall Run at low levels, subjective personal gravity at high levels
Craft > shape armor and weapons out of the Rage Force (it's like the Speed Force), plusses scaling with level, sorta like soulknives
Handle Animal > Speak with Animals at low levels, gradually upgrading through Charm to Leadership-but-for-animals where a cohort and a horde of animal followers support you
Intimidate > Fear immunity, fear aura, frightful presence
Jump > Anime Jump, now gets a distance of 50ft base + 10ft per class level + 10ft per rank, ignoring movement speed limits. Wizard puts up a wall of force? Jump over it. Wizard is flying? Jump up and stab him (also hang time). Reflex save buffs, possibly even Evasion.
Listen > Instead of checking to sense, you automatically sense and check to identify. Pierces invisibility for corporeal creatures. Greatly increased range.
Ride > Give the epic usages of ride as free permanent effects, for starters. Constant mount cover. Control while unconscious. Ride anything. Tame anything. Raise mount speed and durability.
Survival > Make it a combat skill while in the outdoors, fluffed as knowing the terrain well enough to lead your enemies into traps and bad conditions that you were able to predict. Mechanically, spawn pits and avalanches and snowstorms and stuff. Give elemental resistances.
Swim > Water breathing, swim speed, fishmorph, speak with aquatic creatures (overlapping with Handle Animal, but hey, not everyone has both), cold resistance/immunity.

File: Guy's_Eight_Inner_Gates.png (1MB, 1916x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1916x1080px

>>48657791

>Madara as a wizard

You know what? That makes more sense then it has any right to. Worst still being he fights the uber martial of the setting (8 Gates Guy) and still beats him because of his bullshit immunities.

God damnit, it's like BMX man and Angel Summoner

>>48657824
But then you have that problem where there's no balance, and you could easily make a broken character even by accident.

Of course, DnD already has that problem, but there are other systems out there.

>>48657791
Where is that webm from?

>>48657793
Maybe.... Maybe.... because every class isn't meant to be able to do anything?

Maybe.... Maybe.... because any sane GM would see you go "I want X class, but I also want Y class feature without multiclassing." as you wanting to be a special little snow flake.

Maybe.... Maybe.... Instead of playing pathfinder, you could play the D&D 4E game I've been wanting to run for a while and convince me why your character absolutely has to have the Werebear Theme from one of the Dragon Magazines?

Maybe.... Maybe.... Fighters aren't spellcasters and thus can't shape shift without the special training that comes with multiclassing?

Maybe... Maybe... if you agree to behave we might allow you to use the Variant Multiclass option to trade a few of your feats from some stuff progression and swap Wild Shape/Improved Wild Shape and Companion/Improved Companion so you can shape shift into a bear at level 7 after actually earning it in game?

>>48657793
Then you'd have to have an archetype for everything.

>>48657985
isn't meant to be able to do everything*

Accidentally placed an a instead of an e.

>>48657976
Animatrix. Pretty good anthology movie, although I admit that last time I saw it was back in VHS times.

>>48657919
>But then you have that problem where there's no balance, and you could easily make a broken character even by accident.
If your GM doesn't pay any attention to character creation and lets the players show up with whatever broken nonsense their grognard munchkin brains could come up with

>>48657985

Pretentious much?

It doesn't mean anything on a message board about games of pretend.

File: mfw.jpg (17KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 500x500px

>>48658047
>asks why he can't play a shape shifting fighter dude.
>gets given a few reasons why and even a few suggestions as to how he might be able to.
>calls the person responding to him pretentious.
>mfw

>>48658018
Fucking this

With Mutants and Masterminds, it's very easy to find when someone's going to break the system. That's what a GM is for.

The point is that every system can be broken in some way. It's what the system does right is what matters. And my argument is that Mutants and Masterminds 3e allows people who use martial stuff to have fun and do things besides "I hit the goblin again".

File: High Level Martials.webm (3MB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 640x360px

>>48657647
Watch anime and go from there
/tg/ hates any mention of anime influencing games but if there is one thing anime does it's cool martials

For something more
Increase base move for martials scales with level
Increase jump distance scales with level
Danger sense at mid level
Intimidation boost at low level Aura of Fear at high
Natural AC or Damage Reduction starting somewhere around level 3-5 and increasing at certain intervals
Climb becomes Wuxia style lightfoot at some point
Natural increase in unarmed damage
Combat Styles with unique moves basically what Tome of Battle tried to do
And finally assume everything is magical in your magical fantasy world don't limit yourself to real world physics

>>48658167
Man I loved Katanagatari and this still pisses me off.

File: fate core combat.webm (3MB, 800x450px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 800x450px

>>48658193
The fight or that anons suggestions

>>48658672
The fight, yes.
Or rather, the teaser of the fight and then the utter lack of it in the actual episode.

>>48655892
>What sort of utility powers could a martial character have?
Nothing, because I am fat, lazy, and uncoordinated.

-Skip Williams and the 3.5 Crew

>>48657394
>>48657553
The way classes create manageable design-chunks you can balance individually compared to each other, makes it significantly easier to balance them as a whole, compared to more granular approaches where more individual chunks of content have to be balanced against each other in every possible combination

The fact that no D&D design team in history has heard of an excel sheet and a bit of self-restraint and careful wording when writing spells, has nothing to do with whether it's harder or easier to balance a class-based system compared to something else.

>>48657829
I really, REALLY like this idea.

>>48657837
That's because Naruto is a comic about wizards. Fireballs, summoning, turning into a snake, straight up motherfucking necromancy, I bet you could find a spell in D&D for every single thing ninja's do in that series and you wouldn't even have to re-fluff most of them.

Wizards are the weebiest fucking class.

File: 001.jpg (1MB, 1887x1300px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1887x1300px

>>48659861
That gives me an idea

>>48657553
>The perception is that magic can do literally anything from wiping your ass to literally just creating a minion who can outfight the fighter PC.

So change that. Make all the different fields of magic into things wizard players need to specialise in to get the most out of, rather than just being handed a cosmic swiss army knife every time they level up.

If a wizard wants to create a minion that can outfight the fighter PC, then that's something they need to work up to, developing their minion-crafting skills over time, and building better and better minions as their skill grows. They can start out imbuing pebbles with simple decision-making and self-propulsion abilities, then gradually work up to larger and more complex stone-critters. By the time they've achieved mastery of minion-crafting, they'd be creating fully-sapient stone manservants and bodyguards, or even beings that surpass themselves in intelligence.

A master minion-crafter couldn't conjure a flame to save their life, but they wouldn't need to, because they can bury their enemy in masterfully-crafted golems.

>>48655892
The problems with the Martial/Caster discrepancy is ultimately because people--whether it be game designers, adventure writers, GMs, or whoever--just assume magic can do anything and everything, all the time, forever, in all settings and as easy as anything.

Long story short they're shitty writers.
Bring back the mysticism, the arcana, the esoterica, and do away with this push-button bullshit magic that doesn't mean anything to the players and sure as fuck means nothing to the setting.

>>48660081
Kind of like Naruto.

File: goemon mystical ninja.gif (32KB, 400x280px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 400x280px

>>48657791
There's actually a line in the 3.5 PHB description of the rogue that says

>Experienced rogues develop mystical powers and skills as they master the arts of stealth, evasion, and sneak attacks.

So I get the impression they were intended to become mystical ninja at high levels, or something. And if the rogue can develop "mystical powers and skills" there's no reason the same couldn't apply to fighters or anyone else. They didn't really put that into practice though.

>>48660286
Worst case scenario: it's a very stupid attempt at defining Use Magic Device.

>>48660301
Nah, that's mentioned seperately in the same paragraph.

>Rogues have a sixth sense when it comes to avoiding danger. Experienced rogues develop mystical powers and skills as they master the arts of stealth, evasion, and sneak attacks. In addition, while not capable of casting spells on their own, rogues can “fake it” well enough to cast spells from scrolls, activate wands, and use just about any other magic item.

UMD is "in addition" to their supposed mystical powers and skills.

Conversations like this are why I'm surprised Fantasy Craft isn't more popular. Distinct and powerful martials is what the game does best.

As a matter of fact I've seen complaints that casters are unduly weaker and don't get as many fun options compared to martials.

>>48660367
In that case, that IS weird.

>>48657793
Because that archetype is reserved for barbarians as they are less likely to get armor stuck in their now growing fur. 3.5, Complete Warrior, Bear Warrior if you want to look it up. Also ranger wilds have variant.

File: (PNG Image, 488 × 631 pixels).png (324KB, 488x631px) Image search: [Google]

324KB, 488x631px

>>48657829
Rule Of Cool's now-defunct Legend system can do stuff like this.
Higher-end skill DCs are for extremely mythic stuff like running on snowflakes in a blizzard.

It has a lot of very interesting mechanics and subsystems, and some really interesting feat design.
There's a thing where you gain magic items as part of advancement, but some of those 'items' can be experiences in places of power which strenghtened or otherwise help define your character. One is that you mysteriously managed to survive falling hundreds of feet--and you literally take no fall damage.

Never actually played it, but like I said, it's pretty interesting.

>>48660574
Sorry, meant wildshape. Phone posting, you know how it is

File: Player Guide Immortals.png (2MB, 852x1077px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 852x1077px

>>48660390
It is odd
I mean the DMG and PH of every edition since 3rd talk about all the things players are supposed to be doing at different levels but they seem to only pay attention to that when it comes to wizards

Personally I want to see a focus on BECMI when it comes to design sure Basic 1-5 level fighters might not have as much as the wizard but once they hit Expert levels 6-10 that gap begins to close until you hit Immortal and a peasant wouldn't be able to tell the difference

>>48660743
>now-defunct
Eh? What have them folks been up to? Last I heard it was about to be the new hotness but then 4e was released.

File: 1453757552971.jpg (196KB, 1005x1200px) Image search: [Google]

196KB, 1005x1200px

>>48660803
Also keep in mind the dude in that picture is a Fighter as the cover to all the BECMI books depict a warrior and a dragon

>>48660808
Team fell apart, released their notes, homebrew section of forum still active.

The system as it is now is perfectly useable, there is just a distinct lack of Monster Manual.

>>48660808
Man, it was in development for that long?

It was declared officially dead on their forums not too long ago.
It's still totally playable as-is and the free download link is still up, but they're no longer working on the core game and there's no longer a bestiary on the way. Between things other people have made and certain promotional materials with monsters even that's not a big deal, but you'd have to poke around the forums for those PDFs.

I happen to have a good selection for it on my Mega, so may as well post it for interested parties.
https://mega.nz/#F!TE1GiKJZ!oQFa3zABVGQi0MNO1MraMA

>>48660941
>Team fell apart
Oh. Yeah, honestly that was probably inevitable all along.

>>48660963
Yeah, I remember people being bummed at the 4e announcement because it would cut into marketshare. I don't know about development though, from the sound of things, it's still in pretty much the same state that it was in back in those days.

>>48660941
>there is just a distinct lack of Monster Manual.
Which is a problem because it takes awhile to generate monsters.

>>48661047
Still preferable to those games whose bestiary consists of some vaguely eyeballed shit with no indication of strength and no guidelines for making stuff up on your own.
I remember the people on the forum working on a bestiary. Maybe they have something to show for it by now.

>>48659861

If anything it should go to show there shouldn't be an arbitrary distinction between "casters" and "martials" seeing as how they can all use weapons and fight with their barehands and use ninja magic to various degrees with the exception that some specialize in certain types of ninja magic versus others such as someone who primarily makes use of Genjutsu; they would obviously be better physically then any normal person but they wouldn't hold a candle in close quarters to someone who specializes in unarmed combat augmented by their ninja magic.

Or the classic case, Temari versus Tayuya

>>48661123
Definitely, but that doesn't change that GMing Legend is pretty damn time consuming. It's the main reason my GM called it quits.

File: Slow slasher smile.gif (998KB, 500x240px) Image search: [Google]

998KB, 500x240px

>>48658692
I would hate it more but I actually rather enjoyed the episode of his sister that replaced it.

>>48661936
Yeah, it's not as if the episode was bad, just incredibly annoying that we didn't get to see the fight properly.

>>48655892
Martial characters are just as good as casters in Anima. Just do what they did

>campaign I bulshitted onto paper in a week.

File: Mages Through The Ages.jpg (177KB, 1098x755px) Image search: [Google]

177KB, 1098x755px

One of the things I've seen brought up in Martial vs Caster threads in the past is the idea of giving Martials access to the same or similar abilities that the Caster gets at the same level
For example a caster gets Area Effect attacks like fireball the the martial gets AoE attacks
Caster gets flight Martial gets similar mobility
Teleport=Teleport
Save or Die=Save or Die
The only difference would be range and damage types as well as Casters having an advantage against certain monsters though this can be mitigated through the use of magic items

It might not be a perfect fix but it is an interesting idea

>>48659861
Nah, Naruto and crew are psionic characters.

>>48661960

what did anima do?

File: 1225933786942.jpg (44KB, 375x500px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 375x500px

Just give martials the power to tap into their life force/ki/prana/inner power to perform superhuman feats.

Basically, fucking Psionics.

4E got one thing right in making monks' power psionic rather than just magic-but-not-spellcasting. IIRC even old 2e psionics required a strong constitution to properly channel psionic power. Sure you might not want your fighter reading minds or levitating objects, but if you're training to put the pointy end of a sword into someone else you're going to train in abilities to better facilitate that like enhanced speed and physical strengthening. Sure you could learn to set fires with your mind, but you'd lose to the guy who suddenly appears behind you and shoves his katana through your spine before tipping his fedora.

>>48662140
Well, that's sort of what 4e strove for. Strike's meant as a followup to that, but it needs a revised edition to unfuck its noncombat section.

The combat rules are good. Just lop off the noncombat mechanics and replace it with a lighter game exclusively for noncombat interactions. Like Risus or Lasers & Feelings, or Fate Accelerated for something leaning heavier.

>>48660378
>distinct martials

nah

Games that aren't shit let your nonmagical characters have access to other sources of incredible power, including technology, good genetics, mutations, objects of power, etc. that allow them to do things that are also impossible in more ridiculous means than 'can jump good', but they also tend to include a way of getting more movement on a reliable basis.

File: he_man_by_diabolumberto-d9hzszi.jpg (1MB, 1200x904px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1200x904px

>>48657824
This guy gets it
Hell Green Ronin already has a fantasy supplement for M&M not to mention all their 3e D&D stuff

Plus you aren't limited to Tolkien derivatives and Forgotten Realms Super DMPC bullshit for settings
last mutants and masterminds game I played was basically Eternia mixed with Green Ronins Freeport setting ancient magitech superscience serpent men airships all sorts of bullshit

>>48664460
too bad M&M is really shitty otherwise

>>48664460
As a comic book fan, they could not have fucked up DC's Martial artists harder if they tried.

>>48664236
>piledriving someone and the pro wrestler glitziness stuns enemies who saw it happen
>not distinct

File: MAGIC 2.png (731KB, 900x668px) Image search: [Google]

731KB, 900x668px

>>48667095

>>48659861

Well, yes, they are in fact wizards.

Fun fact: Kishimoto actually wanted to make a manga about wizards. He had an idea for a manga about wizards. But then his editor came in and went "nah, we have to do ninjas, that shit is super in right now".

So Kishimoto made a comic about ninjas that were wizards, because fuck you he wanted his wizards.

I very much dislike the implication that high level fighters should be made as good as wizards in a utility sense. Instead, make wizards not as powerful in combat so the warriors can shine.

At highest level; Warriors can rip through enemies both single and hoards with ease. None of this 'le use my sword to cut through dimensions and teleport lmao', that undermines the very concept of a warrior.

But a high level warriors best combat ability is probable something like turning into a grizzly bear or a fireball as strong as a grenade, which the high level warrior could defeat easily.

Make magic users good at illusions, transformations, mind fuckery, and all kinds of great and powerful utility but limit their combat effectiveness.

Why are so many of these posts just people complaining about caster supremacy instead of constructively answering OP's question?

File: Halfling Monk vs Unarmed Swordsage.webm (3MB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 480x270px

>>48667177
Well there are a few anons who have offered suggestions but short of switching to a new system and all the 3.1415926 grognards taking their wizard loving heads out of their collective asses there isn't much you can do to fix D&Ds and its always D&D that is brought up talking about this caster problems without overhauling the entire system from the ground up due to how deep the bias runs throughout every edition even if it is less noticeable in 5e

>so any posts complaining about not having monk abilities
>so many people inept at playing eldritch knights

You have your magic fightang man archetypes, now use them.

>>48657829
That's sort of what the Solar Exalted are about. Taking a real skill and exaggerating it is their theme.

Almost all of those points are Exalted 3e Solar charms. Really, everything except turning into a fish, and not that mostly because it intrudes on the Lunar Exalted theme.

>>48667484
> there isn't much you can do to fix D&D
4e

File: edge.png (504KB, 698x760px) Image search: [Google]

504KB, 698x760px

>>48664135
If ever there were a place more appropriate for *teleports behind you* it's a world where reading books makes you stronger than those big dumb ogres that constantly steal all the women 'cause you're too much of a nice guy.

>>48655892

None. Martial characters who wanted to have utility powers beyond what a mortal man could have had, needed to get out and learn some motherfucking magic until DnD started to exist on an artificial divide between fighters and wizards.

If you stop thinking purely in terms of butthurt experienced by players who found that their is concept is objectively worthless due to being an arbitrarily restricted baggage of times when elves were a character class, demanding martial characters to keep up with magic makes as much sense as demanding from them to keep up with nukes and starships.

>>48668340
Low energy bait

>>48655892

Just play Karsa Orlong and be done with it.

I like how half of the "solutions" to this problem are "nobody's underpowered if everyone's a wizard".

Which is missing the point entirely.

>>48668596
There is no other solution. Unless you know something better.

>>48667484
The actual question was what kind of interesting utility powers a martial character might have. Post with suggestions on those are in the minority, to say the least.

>>48668651
Try a system where wizards aren't practically gods?
Try a system where classes are balanced?
Try a system without classes that keeps not having magic in mind within the magic rules?
Play a system where casting takes a bit longer or isn't directly combat effective so both the martial and the mage have their own niches?

As others have said, the wizard is only as broken as the system you're playing has made them. Try playing something that keeps balance and/or spotlight time in mind during development.

>>48668651
Make wizards be wizards instead of gods, and give martial characters access to other stuff that's appropriate to their powers.

>>48663809
Martials can do shit like teleport and fly, shoot energy blasts with ki, and use weapon techniques like Gate of Babylon. They're completely on par with mages and psychics.

>>48657829
>Craft > shape armor and weapons out of the Rage Force (it's like the Speed Force), plusses scaling with level, sorta like soulknives

This is the stupidest fucking shit I've ever read.

>>48657829
Skills like this would make more sense if structured as feats then, or FATE-style aspects, not as the "everyone has some number for each of these" things that d20 assumes.

>>48669924
>give martial characters access to other stuff that's appropriate to their powers.
Like what, motherfucker? That's the premise of this entire thread.

>>48670492
It fucking depends, doesn't it? "Martials" is a pretty broad category.

>>48669969
Welcome to the Speed Force, enjoy the stupid.

File: Child Inquisitor Everything is Heresy Warhammer40000 Chainsword.gif (42KB, 989x679px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 989x679px

>>48655892
>Wizards can do anything, from creating matter out of nothing to flying and a whole bunch of other crap

No they can't. Why on Earth do you believe that nonsense?

/tg/ seems to want their martial artists to be equal to meme wizards. Not wizards that are in any game (D&D included), but wizards in the hyperbole-infested joke and comic world of 4chan. Of course no game's martial artists can compete with that.

>>48657356
Get this man a job at hasbro.

>>48667104
But magic does have an objective state in the games being discussed. It has objective rules. And those objective rules make magic stronger in those systems than martials.

And this is a common problem. Nobody is arguing that magic has to be stronger than martials. In fact, people want game systems that deliver balance. But for whatever reason, most systems don't.

>>48667171
That's retarded, because it ties the DM's or the player's hands. Making games where all classes have something to contribute in all the phases of the game lets the DM run a game that is heavily focused on one game type regardless of what his players pick.

>>48670885
Wizards in DnD don't have Fly or Wall of Iron? Huh. Must've been looking at my books wrong the whole time.

>>48667171
Utility is exactly the problem, the whole crux of the martial-caster disparity. Even in your idea the casters can contribute to every asset of roleplaying while fighters can only fight or sit around twiddling their thumbs otherwise, thus existing at all only for about 1/4 of the average TTRPG session.

>>48667135

Off topic, but I always find it hilarious when mangaka do shit like this.

The guy who wrote Love Hina wanted to do a battle manga next, but he was told to do another harem manga instead. So he made a battle manga about a wizard and his harem, who are also wizards or martial artists and nobody caught wind of what he was doing until it was too late.

Negima actually handled it pretty well, I thought. At lower levels, the martial arts were actually usually superior to using magic so mages needed protectors, while at higher power levels the martial artists had acquired magic and the magicians had acquired martial arts.

Anyway, the problem as I see it is twofold where it manifests hardest, and by that I mean D&D.

The first is the "magic can do anything" problem, and the second is that developers are very hesitant to make martial abilities scale properly.

So first of all, the spell lists probably need to be scaled down. No more app store where a well-studied mage has an answer for any problem, sometimes a bizarrely specific one. Transforming into a combat monster probably shouldn't be something mages are any good at, and minionmancy should have a fairly high chance of your minions slipping your bonds and trying to kill you if you do ANYTHING wrong so that it's a high risk, high reward system rather than the obvious good option that the mage will avoid to be sporting. If magic is easy, consistent, AND safe, you have a problem. At least one of those three things should be out the door when you're dealing with magic.

The second is let martial abilities get fantastic at higher levels. Mages go from doing parlor tricks like little light shows and turning things blue to summoning meteors from the heavens and flipping gravity off and on. In a setting where this is the case, the fighty guy should not be swinging a stick at level 1 and swinging a stick a LOT at level 20.

>>48671230

They have Fly and Wall of Iron, yet that is a far cry from "can do anything." They're also limited to a number of spells per day, and cannot know all the spells. Their spells are specific magical effects that do exactly what is said on the tin.

>>48667135
this is something of an urban myth, or at least there's no direct evidence for it.

>>48667135
Demon hunters. Originally they were demon hunters and Naruto would ride a motorcycle.

And he could turn into a fox-pup.

>Martial Utility
Enhanced Senses from years of arduous training allow the Martial to perceive more than the common man this could manifest as a high passive perception score

Minor version of Detect Thoughts Martials are capable of reading a foes intent in battle though this skill is just as useful in the hall of the palace and allows the martial to get a read on the motives of others

More mobility options mobility helps outside combat especially during exploration

Strength bonus to intimidate people can instinctively sense the might of the Martial

Martials who are trained as part of a larger force develop Leadership skills and at higher levels an almost supernatural ability to command
As above but for tactics

File: Toriko's_Intimidation_OVA.png (405KB, 854x480px) Image search: [Google]

405KB, 854x480px

>>48673821
>Strength bonus to intimidate people can instinctively sense the might of the Martial

Why this isn't a thing I'll never understand.

There are even stories about Musashi who cultivated this sort of death aura that just kept people from wanting to fight him.

File: 3.5 Wizards.webm (3MB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1280x720px

>>48674448
I think there is a feat somewhere that lets you but it does need to be a built in class feature

>>48674618

While this is my personal grip I've always felt it was a mistake to make the Paladin a sort of buffer of sorts.

That role should be reserved for the fighter (then again, the Paladin should never have been a base class to begin with, but that's mu humble opinion).

The legendary Leader PrC I feel would be perfect for a base line fighter to be built off of .

File: 1459392391075.jpg (215KB, 640x786px) Image search: [Google]

215KB, 640x786px

>>48675020
I've always felt that a fair few Prestige Classes where attempts to give classes features they should have had in the first place

>>48675395

What ones in particular?

>>48655892
Abilities to do with their weapons, pole vaulting, using their weapons to climb, that kinda shit

>>48655892
None. Martials hit in combat and do hp damage, nothing else. They're also strictly NPC material.

>>48665112
>>48665285
Elaborate.

>>48675565
Cavalier,Dervish,Kensei,Knight Protector
And those are all just examples from the same book
Each has simple features that should have been in the base class
Only a few of the abilities of many Prestige Classes are worth being prestige and those are mostly for the Fluff heavy PrCs

>>48655892
Play anima.
The answer to this bullshit has been "play anima" for years.

So finish third grade, learn math and play anima.

>>48669947
Or just be unstoppable and cqc faggot wizards to death because you can parry a fireball.

File: oSJdegl.jpg.png (483KB, 700x1200px) Image search: [Google]

483KB, 700x1200px

>>48655892
Punch really fucking hard

>>48657985
>Maybe.... Maybe.... because every class isn't meant to be able to do anything?
Tell it to the Wizards, anon.

>>48657985

>Maybe.... Maybe.... because every class isn't meant to be able to do anything?

Tell that to Druids and Clerics.

>Maybe.... Maybe.... because any sane GM would see you go "I want X class, but I also want Y class feature without multiclassing." as you wanting to be a special little snow flake.

If they do, then you should remind them that 3.X has rules for playing as literal half-angel/half-demon children who wield big ass swords and are powered by hellfire.

>Maybe.... Maybe.... Fighters aren't spellcasters and thus can't shape shift without the special training that comes with multiclassing?

Maybe.... Maybe.... it's a racial thing?

I mean, considering everything else 3.X made rules for, there's probably some class that lets you shapeshift somewhere.

>>48658099

Maybe.... Maybe.... he shouldn't have acted like a cock and people wouldn't have shat on him for being pretentious.

>>48661204
Temari vs Tayuya isn't a martial vs caster thing. It's wind magic projectile spamer vs illusionist and also both are also summoners. But yes, Temari's fan is a fuck huge enchanted club so she's not bad in terms of close combat.

>>48661204
A much better example would be Rock Lee vs Garra

>>48682220
Also meant to link to >>48681028

>>48675817
So make prestige classes more prestige, like Dragon Disciple or Shifter and let base classes have some variety, basically transferring "prestiges" like Cavalier, Dervish or Knight Protector into set of feats that work together in a really great synergy. What prestige classess are truly prestige? Weapon Master, Champion of Torm, who else?

>>48674448
>There are even stories about Musashi who cultivated this sort of death aura that just kept people from wanting to fight him.
I think that had more to do with him not taking baths. Ever.

>>48685504
Musashi bathed, to think otherwise is absolutely silly.

He may have been a paranoid fucker with a penchant for counter-ambushing people, and it's plausible he sometimes neglected his hygiene when travelling, but he was in the service of several daimyos, he wasn't an unwashed savage.

>>48685603
There's actually a story about him taking a bath in his clothes and with his swords at hand when he was first invited to present himself to a daimyo; of course, if all Musashi legends were true, he'd have had to be actually at like 8 places at once.

Oh good.

People are mentioning 4e already.

Stuff alot of your raw magic power into non-combat rituals, and make rituals require teamwork to get successfully done, and you have made your casters not overpowered and actually part of a team.

>>48687981
>Stuff alot of your raw magic power into non-combat rituals, and make rituals require teamwork to get successfully done, and you have made your casters not overpowered and actually part of a team.
Yeah, that was a good turn of design that was really interesting and fun.

The exact opposite of that? Martial Practices from Martial Power 2. They're supposed to be the martial equivalent of Rituals, but almost none of them make sense and they gate handfuls of normal skill applications behind needing that Practice or finding an NPC who does.
Apparently you need to be level 5 and be taught some ancient technique to make a hidden pocket in clothing--but also the pocket disappears after you take something out of it.
You have to be level 2 to embalm a corpse, which has some very strange implications for most settings.
Oddly you only have to be level 1 to be a Master Artisan, where you can make any mundane item using gold. Which is, granted, part of not having to track components, just like with rituals--but it's still goofy.

There are a couple that make sense, but it's still a big uninspired mess that runs roughshod over what *could* have been a good idea.

>>48680601
>> there's probably some class that lets you shapeshift somewhere.

>>>Bear Warrior (Warrior Complete)
>Shapeshift into a bear whenever you goes into rage/frenzy (STR+20 DEX+2 CON+8 at the 10th level)

>>48690776

Meant to say race but whatever.

>>48658672
Sauce

>>48664135
I can't wait for the full Mysric to be released.