Warmachine/Hordes General - Dem Hips Edition

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So I heard Trenchers got a boost, but what about Storm Knights? How well do Storm Blades and Storm Guard (Normal and Silverline) do these days?

I was thinking about making either a Trencher themed or Storm Knight theme army list.

My 75 point Kingmaker's Army list

(Damiano 1) Captain Damiano [+28]
- Rocinante [18]
- Nomad [11]
- Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan [4]
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (max) [17]
Steelhead Heavy Cavalry (max) [18]
Steelhead Riflemen (max) [14]
Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11]
Dirty Meg [3]
- Talon [7]
Stannis Brocker [0]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0]
Kell Bailoch [0]

>>48609873
Storm Blades got a nice boost - so they are a solid replacement for Forgeguard now

Gencon tomorrow guys. eJuniors will be available.

>>48610734

All of them? I haven't seen anything for the Circle, Troll or Skorne one...

>>48612094
Hordes are gonna be out on sale at WMW.

>>48610734
Will they be going up online anywhere soon afterwards? I need Elara2 something fierce.

>>48610734
When will the online store come up Anonalon?

>>48612707
You're gonna love her too. She's not bad as a caster.

>>48613330
Feel free to spoil anything to [email protected]. Promise I won't spread stuff around, just be ready to update the site when it's publicly available.

>>48613330
More than just Girl Garryth, then? Any vague details you can share?

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Punished Magnus for Diamond Devil Dogs army

>>48614109

This would actually be pretty cool if magnus1 didnt have the worst model in the game?

>>48614534
Any hint on the new Khador Caster?

>>48614409
Dude there are worse for sure. He could use a resculpt, but so could plenty of others.

>>48616604
Maybe I'm not seeing it but... eh?

>>48616655
It's pretty decent, it doesn't rock the table but it allows his army to get a bunch of extra work done that turn.

Let's say he's got 5 warjacks, he doesn't need to allocate anything that turn so he can blow his entire stack casting spells, then he refuels to 5 and either camps it or casts another spell and still ends up camping at least 1. Then all his warjacks activate with 2 focus and you can get 3 on the ones that need it if you brought Vassals.

>>48616655
>>48616790
Where did the post go?

>>48616820
Here:
Durant2's feat
>warjacks in BG gain 1 focus
>Durant2 gains 1 focus for each warjack in BG
>Durant cannot gain more focus than his current FOCUS

Manifest Destiny, Hand of the Creator, Invioable Resolve, Cleansing Fire, Chasten

>>48616826
Seems decent. Focus 5 caster?

What does Hand of the Creator do?

>>48616885
FM true sight? Fucking knew it. My friends will be happy with him I hope.

>>48616880
>Focus 5 caster
Oh please. This is Warmachine.

Played Madrak2 today, I lived the dream and got Madrak to kill my opponent's entire army and caster on his own in one turn. Madrak started in the exact center of the table on top of 3, charged max distance almost directly sideways to get some Zealots, then did a huge half-circle around the board killing everything. In one turn he moved like 30", killed a complete 75 point list (I'd killed some Zealots the previous turn, but they respawned with minifeat), and ended the with 6 Fury left over after putting the caster in the dirt. If I hadn't bothered to kill the three heavy warjacks I'd have had like 20 fury left over, but why leave a job half-finished?

I could see Madrak being weak against extreme range high-pow gunlines, but even that matchup could be playable depending on scenario and terrain, and you can pair him with Gunbjorn if you're really worried about it.

He probably needs to be nerfed.

>>48616885
Focus 7? Guess that means all the journeymen won't be focus and fury 5 weanies. That is a big fear alleviated. Thank you.

>>48616910
Also, while you may think that resolving that many attacks and 1" movements would be hell on deathclock, it really isn't because every turn before that is lightning fast. Madrak's fuckball just runs forward directly towards the most relevant scenario feature, and the Fennblades have one turn where they make some charges and jam their big meaty fists as deep as they can then they all die. Like I think I spent maybe ten minutes between my first two turns.

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>Playing Agathia into Sloan
>Get my shit pushed in hard, everything bar my caster, one Satyxis, a damaged Slayer, and a Necrotech is dead at the end of turn four
>Sloan gets cocky, steps just inside Agathia's threat range to finish off the Leviathan she was hiding behind
>Ghost Walk, Vanish, charge, stab stab stab
>Win on assassination

I didn't deserve the win, but I'm taking it anyway. Aggy's fun as fuck, it's just a shame she doesn't have an AoE or spray spell.

>>48609460
Why isn't the RPG more popular? I know it's not D&D, but that's not a bad thing, and it used to be. I never really see it discussed on here. Even though people always seem down for it, games never come together. What hex has been placed on this game?

Anyone have any good CoC lists? I just got into the faction. Ik that they haven't changed much since mk2 but they haven't seen any tourney play yet so other than random experimentation I don't really know what to build to be competetive.

When are the new stuff available on the webstore? I want to buy my new Cryx shit already! On a related note, are the past years ones available this year? I've only gotten into the game this year and want the Witch Doc

>>48618209
Ive heard 10 am be thrown around, but who knows.

>>48617930
>IKRPG not popular
The IKRPG occupies a bit of a weird niche in the RPG world. It's based very closely on the tabletop game (to the point that RPG and WMH models can be pretty effortlessly ported back and forth between systems), which creates a sort of "tabletop wargame with RPG trappings" experience. In that regard, it competes most directly with D&D 4th edition.

There just doesn't seem to be much of an audience for it. In trying to please multiple audiences it doesn't really please any. Those who want a ton of crunch in their RPG are still running 3.5 or Pathfinder. Players more into the narrative-driven RPG scene can easily port the setting to their preferred systems. I own most of the new IKRPG books (and all the old ones) for use as reference texts, but when I actually ran a campaign I used the FATE engine.

>tfw you live in Europe and is already August 4th, but you have to wait for spoiler.

I can expect the new journeyman to be sold from first day, or I am wrong ?

>>48609873
Trenchers are definitely THE choice now, but stormknights improved overall (from "garbage" to "alright", in general).

Stormblades got a nice buff with Iron Zeal, which helps them make it to the fight, especially when combined with one or more of Cygnar's other defensive buffs. Delivery was always their biggest issue, so any help in that department is appreciated.

Normal stormguard got a little cheaper, but I'm not sure it's enough. They're still on the expensive side for a screen unit, especially one with middling defensive stats.

Silverline are niche, but when they're good they're good, as the saying goes. Polarity Wall is one of those situationally brilliant abilities... buffing infantry armor is a lot more interesting when they can't be charged. And they bring another one of those electricity damage buffs that seem to have become a faction theme.

Stormlances are probably the best of the bunch. They're expensive, but they do a ton of work, especially if you can buff them.

>>48609873
>>48618788

A will say that Cygnar got two of the best cavalry in the game.

Storm Lances are really good and AS work wonders on them.
Murder Pony are better than MKII only for the fact that normal GunMage where nerfed.

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Courtesy of Jay Larsen, Elara2. Spoilers for those who wish to wait.
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>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
Wow, people weren't kidding when they said she's like a Cryx 'caster.

Still looks like it could be fun.

>>48618988
She is super legit. Threat extension, DEF and ARM fixer, terrain fixxer.

>>48619003
She can fucking flying Griffon from 13" away with 4 attacks at POW 17.

>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
Sweet. If Jakes is only half as good as that I can see myself preordering her across the atlantic.

>>48619110

Jakes spell list = really good

Jakes feat = total garbage

she sucks sadly. she had so much potential and if they had just given her a good feat she might be viable. instead shes doing nothing new and nothing that exciting. Sprint doesn't even work with the spell they gave her >_>

>>48619040
Don't forget the 2" weapon for a grand total threat range of 15". That out-ranges just about all non-sniped gunlines.

Pretty sweet.

But then again Vyros1 has Mobility which is battlegroup wide +2spd + Pathfinder for one more focus, Issyria has Crusader's Call which is +2" for everything inside her control range, Ravyn has Locomotion, Thyron has Assail, and Vyros2 has Easy Rider.

So getting Griffins out that far isn't too hard for many Ret casters.

>>48619265

outranges all non sniped gunlines? only short ass gunlines only threat 15.

factor in movement too and most gunlines outthreat that except the impotent sad ones that usualyl have very high pow to compensate

>>48619280
What I'm saying is you are out ranging their guns, not their threat range.

I played 40k for a long time and am interested in something new.

I got to Warmahordes (there's a group playing in my town) and read about the factions. I liked Cryx at first, but I think they're too "edgy"

Then I got to Everblight (because those "quizzes" led me to it) and I like their monster-heavy theme.

How should I start now as a beginner/what should I buy and how is the balancing?

>>48619250
Was she spoilered already?

http://imgur.com/gallery/DRZXN Gallery of the casters

So how does waiting for the gencon exclusives work? Do they just show up in the exclusives section of the online store randomly?

>>48609873
Painting my stormblades right now - the dude with the big polearm? his arms were super fucked up, I'm gonna have to cut away at them and greenstuff to get them to fit well. But I thought of just contacting PP to get replacement arms and maybe they're better. anyone else have a problem with this guy?

Move over Kaelyssa, there's a new woman in my life and her name is Elara.
Imperatus with Ghostly, Boundless Charge, Dark Shroud and Retaliatory Strike? Yes fucking please

>>48619625
Kaelyssa and Elara play quite differently. They both share a similiar assassination role but in no way does Elara replace Kaelyssa.

>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
>cryx caster in retri is better than any cryx caster in cryx
Wew.

>>48619811
Wow. That is how you do a standing sculpt. Take note Malakov. Why couldn't you look this good?

Anyone here have figured out whats gotten better and whats now trash in Menoth? Through a quick glance it seems Vassals turned from great to meh. Choir nerfed but still seems essential.

What's your take on Idrians vs Exemplars? Seems Idrians got a considerable buff, and Errants got a... sidenerf? Assault is nice, but loss of Pathfinder is pretty big.

I personally dislike the nerf to heavy infantry. Is there any reason to use Cinerators or Bastions now?

Did the Reckoner lose assault, or am I imagining things?

When does the gencon stuff typically hit the store?

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Muh dick

>>48619424
Shame about Tristan, he looks so much like Amon's retarded cousin.

>>48619959
who?

>>48620027
Retribution Solo Lyss Healer or Poorman's Covenent of Menoth

>>48620027
New ret solo I think

>>48619959
>We want the jazz hands safe space market
>No ugly shaming so wear a hood
>No making triggered noises to wave your hands instead

>>48619916

Basically, Harby, Bastions, and Vassals got straight up nerfed.

Errants got changed. They're probably worse overall, but still good, just good in different ways.

Choir got slightly nerfed, but are still essential, and it's a net upgrade for Menoth figuring Power Up in to things.

Reckoner lost Assault but gained damage on its shot.

Feora2 is worse. People say Kreoss2 is worse, but I never played him, so I can't say.

And that's the stuff that got worse or sidegraded.

The new hotness in Menoth is:

- Idrians. Awesome now.
- Vindictus. Very good now.
- Amon. Now one of the best casters in the game
- All of our heavy jacks except Avatar and Reckoner got better. Crusaders are ridiculous now.
- Redeemers. Yes, they got better. They get power up and stayed RoF 3 instead of going RoF 1/Reload 2.
- Sunburst crews. Now set everything hit on fire.

>>48619424
I wish Malakov kept Redline.

Reminder that if infantry can't damage a heavy they're unplayable.

Further reminder that the only infantry in Skorne that can damage a heavy are Cetrati, who are expensive and got nerfed into the ground.

>>48620140
Cetrati pay a hell of a tax for being awesome in full boat under Makeda2. So much that they're not very useful otherwise.

>>48619424
Wish they would stop giving out scything touch. Don't know about aiakos

>>48620282
Cetrati still have a game with Xerxis1, at least. Even with the reduced stats they're one of the best Defender's Ward targets. Park an agonizer in the brick and they're sittin at a cozy DEF 13 / ARM 24.

Malakov for dumpster fire tier

Might be as bad as harkevich

>>48620420
see
>>48619424

>>48620098

What did Crusaders get that was ridiculous?

Wait, Redeemers are actually good? I thought they were a joke-jack. Why field them over skyhammer infantry?

I also just purchased Anson Durst and was thinking about building a list around him. I was considering a big blob of heavy jacks, crusaderspam or perhaps Templars, with a compliment of Flameguards for even more ridiculous armor. Anvil part seems solid, but what would I use as hammer? I'm considering Cinerators, but they just seem so bad with the health nerf.

>>48620602
ROF got changed. You fire all of your ROF without having to buy attacks. Redeemers kept ROF 3.

Crusaders got cheaper in mk3. They are 5 MK2 points.

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>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
Those are some top tier abilities.

>>48620612

Christ, so you spam 3 rockets per jack, and have someone half-competent in melee. Yeah I can see why they are good now. Rockets rain from the sky.

Do you have an opinion on Exemplar Cinerators?

>>48620637
Also jack martials got their pseudo focus changed to a choice of 4 abilities. One of which is to have the jack gain a +2 ranged damage bonus when they give up their movement to aim.

Popping and dropping is hilarious when you have a redeemer aim for +2/+2 and also be choired up.

>>48619424
Those are... pretty much nothing. Which I guess I'm happy about since I wasn't that excited about the babies growing up anyway. Tristan's so-so compared to Amon, and the rest just seem pretty bad.

>>48619811
Couldnt care less about Una but damn,that sculpt looks damn fine

>>48619424
Bad sculpt and bad caster, poor Andrei.

>>48620700
Jakes looks fantastic but the rest are bad

>>48620067
Lmao wat

>>48620747

I really really like him as a caster. He's utter shit but I love the idea.

Casters are up on the store, $25.

>>48620676

Being prone gives defense 5 against both ranged and melee attack? I can see why that is absolutely ludicrous.

I'll have to get myself 2 redeemers and try it out with a Kreos1 list, it sounds quite overpowered.

>>48620612
Wait I thought crusaders got more expensive overall (50 -> 75 pt games means costs should increase by 50% to be totally unchanged) but the crusader went up by 4. It makes sense that it did but how did you figure it's only 5 mk2 points

>>48621045
Costs are actually roughly doubled (2 point solos went to 4), but the game sizes changed to be slightly smaller. Which is a good thing, since 50 point games were a tad too large for my tastes.

>>48620887
God damn and $10 shipping

>>48621045
because warnoun points are much bigger now. They are high 20s and low 30s. Points essentially doubled.

>>48620637
Cinerators are ok. They're in the not-bad-but-not-stellar category that a lot of stuff falls in to. They're great buffed. Problem is, most of the time there's a better unit to use with the buff than Cinerators.

But they're not bad.

>>48620676

I like the Durant1+2x Redeemer boat instead of marshaling them, as Durant can keep two of them fully loaded on focus, giving them 3x boosted POW 14s each with no requirement to aim to do so.

>>48619250
>Jakes2 sucks
Are we looking at the same card? There's a hell of a lot going on there.
- Positive Charge and Escort are two of the best spells in the game, and both synergize nicely with the rest of her kit.
- Bullet Dodger isn't half bad either. Nice spell to toss on a Maxwell Finn or GMCA to make them harder to remove.
- Field Marshal [Sprint] is very strong.. easily one of the best Field Marshal abilities out there.
- She contributes personally with 2x Hand Cannons (and occasionally also in melee with Acrobatics/Sprint).
- Her feat gives everything in her army parry and lightning tendrils. Remember that her jacks have +2 movement, can sprint, and potentially have +2 to both attack and damage. Adding parry, reach and electroleap into that package isn't something most opponents can afford to ignore.

I look at Tristan and think he kicks ass, why is he a weaker Amon?

>>48609873
I wonder how sword knights can even live with themselves knowing Stormblades exist.

>>48616826
does he still have true sight though?

>>48620140

I've thought about this and what I've figured is that infantry that can't damage a heavy are mostly useless after they've beaten the opposing infantry.

This doesn't mean they're useless, it means that their margin of victory in the infantry-on-infantry skirmish is meaningless; the better you did in the end, the more points you wasted.

Play Karax, they can put a CMA together if there are any left over after the grind, and they take a while to lose to other infantry if you underallocated in the first place, which is as good as victory for as long as it lasts.

>>48621415
If PP ever fixes heavy infantry, I think Hand of the Creator + his armor upkeep will be nice. Hopefully they realize their blunder.

Goddamn, why is Aiakos so bad?

>>48621664
Is he? He looks pretty fun to me. Crabs under his feat look like they're going to be good.

>>48621641
That spell would be boss in Convergence.

But they're not going to "fix" heavy infantry, because they don't want them to replace heavy jacks as ground holders, like they were doing in Mk2.

>>48621727
Then what purpose do they serve?

>>48621415
I don't think is is actually that much worse.
Biggest difference is no mobility.
Fortify might be better, but can't be slapped on units.
Chasten has more utility than than Amon's nuke.
Manifest destiny is pretty close to synergy. Less possible bonus, but you don't have some jacks getting nothing.
Field marshal:parry and field marshal: true sight are both strong.
Hand of the creator pretty much makes him a warlock, which is pretty sweet.
The nail in the coffin is crit:dispell instead of trip. Irredeemable trash :^)

>>48621550
Infantry can also threaten casters. Pow 12s might not do shit to a heavy but get some pow 12 guns on a caster and they are at serious risk.

>>48621641
Healing D3 a turn on everything near you is nuts. It allows you to take multiple near dead jacks and put them back in the game. He pretty much gives Jacks the same ability as warbeasts have systems wise.

>>48621768
Oh it works on jacks too? I didn't realize.

>>48621803
FF models, it works on everything.

>>48621862
Fuck it. Manifest Destiny and jack spam it is then. And a random unit to jam with +2 armor.

>>48621641
Hand of the creator heals jacks too doesnt it? Fix them movement and arm boxes that got fucked, or the cortex, then pop feat.

>>48621641
>If PP ever fixes heavy infantry, I think Hand of the Creator + his armor upkeep will be nice. Hopefully they realize their blunder.
Even as with their current weak-ass rules, Tristan's probably got enough to make Bastions work. At ARM 18, it's tough enough to take take them out, and HotC + Senny means the unit is healing 5d3+5 per turn.

>>48621881
If you're only bringing one unit make it Errants. They do everything, can be immune to spells for one turn, solo gives em unyielding, and they look cool as fuck.

So how does the Reaper's harpoon and drag work with Assault? You charge your target, get your free shot, then assuming it hits and damages, what happens? Do you get a free attack, then make your charge attack, then buy extras? Or just make your charge attack?

>>48621971
Free attack, then charge attack, then you can buy more.

>>48621971
A failed charge is still a failed charge. You just charge normally (but with the +3 spd from the feat) at something the reaper could successfully get into melee without using the pull. You then get to harpoon them and make a free scythe attack because of the harpoon, alongside whatever you normally do with the charge.

>>48621971
If you hit and damage, you make your attack, and then you make your charge attack.

So it's basically an extra melee attack if it hits and damages.

>>48621971
This >>48622008
and if you fail the charge but have range you still make the assault Harpoon attack, drag them in and make the free attack that grants. Not sure if you can buy more after or if failing the charge ends activation.

>>48622008
>>48622021
>>48622024
Thanks. This plus Sustained Assault could make Reapers (and Malice) really good on his feat turn.

>>48621959
>If you're only bringing one unit make it Errants. They do everything, can be immune to spells for one turn, solo gives em unyielding, and they look cool as fuck.
If you're only bringing one unit, make it Idrians. They're just like Errants, except better at prettymuch everything. (They do look pretty dopey though)

>>48622184
Errants synergize with his one upkeep spell.

>>48621753
The idea is for them to be a sort of mid-range option. Models that can weather small arms fire and hazards that would fuck single wound infantry.

The current iteration is way preferable to the fucking insane bricks that dominated late MkII and made everything else in the game obsolete. The main problem I see is that in a game where infantry of all types have been toned down and warjacks buffed, they still have maintained most of the ridiculous infantry removal tech they introduced to deal with WGDS, Kayazy and MHSF.

>>48622278
So do Bastions, which also synergize with Hand of the Creator.

>>48621692
fun!=good

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So, I picked up 2 boxes of Cephalyx Mind Slavers earlier in the month, haven't had much time to throw then around. What goes well with/ enhances their abilities in a list? Oh forgot, Cryx player here.

>>48622398
And yet we're still seeing units like Reaves and winterguard rifle men seeing the field and needing to be dealt with.

Retribution is running heavy infantry still. Their jacks are good but their infantry is insane. As a Ret player, most of my lists are 30+ infantry. I'm taking a unit of sentinels, then a ranged unit and a support unit like Stormfall archers.

It's easy for people to see how good Jacks are now and how people are running more of them while ignoring that Ret still exists and is considered in the top 3 factions while using mostly infantry. All their jacks are solid, they couldn't ask for much more to support them, but their units are just so good that they're seeing equal play time and as such need answers.

I'm not saying that some factions infantry aren't the victims of the infantry hate because they clearly are but that doesn't mean those tools are bad for the game.

>>48622031
activation just ends, you failed the charge. Technically the free attack from drag happens outside of activation

>>48622557
I don't think that's accurate. The assault has to be concluded before the activation ends. The drag attack is part of the Harpoon's effect.

>>48620619
I.....

Shitballs, why didn't I think of using that scheme. It was right in front of my face, but I could not see. Thank you for educating me.

>>48622652
He's right, actually, sad to say.

Assault shot occurs after movement ends but before combat action begins.

Charge is determined to be successful or not at the end of movement.

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>>48622733
I know, right?
I don't play Ret but I'm considering it. I think I'd look for robotic mosquito heads for the 'jacks though.

So if fear and leadership effects were removed from mk3, what is the purpose of standard bearers right now?

>>48622908
Except he's not. Assault clearly says the assault attack occurs even on a failed charge before the model's activation ends.

>>48623063
From Assault, page 52

>This ranged attack must occur after the model ends it's movement but before it begins it's Combat Action

From Charge, page 31
>If a charging model ends it's charge movement without engaging its charge target, it has made a failed charge

So you end your movement before you make the attack, which means that it's a failed charge either way.

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>>48623143
Nice cherrypicking champ, try harder next time.

>>48623049
They add +2 CMD to the unit leader, allowing the unit to spread out more.

>>48623167
Wait, what are you arguing here?

So, this is how it works:

He charges an enemy model, fails the charge, makes the assault shot.

Shot hits and damages, drags in. As the melee attack is part of the shot, he gets to make the drag attack.

However, he can no longer make any more melee attacks(as the activation ends after the shot is resolved) and the charge still fails.

>>48623179

How often do you need your unit to be at 10+ inches from the leader?

>>48623208
It can be a big deal, especially if you're charging targets that are spread out as well.

>>48623203
I was disagreeing with the bloke who previously said all that happens outside activation, which is extremely wrong. Cuz if it were outside activation that would remove the ability to boost which is huge.

>>48623167
So how is he wrong? You charge a dude, but your guy isn't in melee after movement, right? So it's a failed charge. Now you make your assault shot, and subsequent drag+one attack, and then activation is over. You dont get a charge attack because the charge failed, and you cant buy more attacks because activation ends when a charge is failed.

>>48623232
Oh, no, it's not outside of activation, it's resolved as part of the shooting attack.

I didn't even see anyone say that, I thought you were saying that the charge would be successful after the drag went off.

>>48623256
No. That would be broken as hell.

I can see someone pulling a daisy-chain of failed Drag charges with a couple reapers and Aiakos though. Would be a brutal way to drag a heavy or caster way outside their army and into the danger zone.

The statement was >>48622557 here.

>>48619384
Balancing is not perfect, but not bad overall. Warmachine factions are for the most part well balanced. Some of the Hordes factions got a few unnecessary nerfs in this new edition or missed out on buffs they needed leading Hordes to seam a tad lackluster compared to warmachine as a whole. But everything can be played against everything. The only time where OP or UP stuff really becomes important is high level tournaments. So long as your group stay relatively casual, who wins is going to be more based off of skills.

Warmachine and Hordes are not meant to be realistic, they're all overthe top but not to the level of 40k. Cryx are undead zombie/lich pirates who worship a dragon who thinks he's just as good as a god. Legion are blighted or blood-created homunculai abomminations who are mind-slaved to a dragon-child of Toruk, Everblight.

Long, long time ago, Toruk thought: "Hey, know what's cool? ME. Wanna know what would be more cool? MORE ME." So he took his Athanac, which is a stone like object that is essentially the heart and phylactery of a dragon (they re-grow around this nigh-indestructible object), and he broke off shards from his Athanac and formed them into manny independent Athanacs. One of these was Everblight. He then immediately thought: "Wait, I'm big, pissy, selfish asshole who wants everything for myself. And I made these these guys in my image so they're all going to be big, pissy, selfish assholes who want everything for themselves." IHAVEMADEAHUGEMISTAKE.gif At the very moment of their conception, Toruk realized this, slaughtered about half of them and consumed them before they could run, and one of his current major objectives is to hunt them all down and eat the rest.

I don't know a whole ton about Everblight's history but I know that he was stuck, sealed in his athanac for a long, long time which is how he mastered manipulating his 'blight' in order to control other beings around him.

>>48619384
>>48623382

Oh, also, both new battleboxes for Cryx and Legion are both good, giving you some core stuff to expand upon that will be useful in many lists. They'd be a just fine place to start.

>>48621692
I think I would rather just use him to send DJ 15' to kill the enemy caster.

>>48619384
If you like necrons and nids and 40k,cryx and legion will suit you well,respectively
Gameplay-wise add a dose of dark eldar to them and you're good to go

>>48623441
Actually, I would recomend getting a MKII Cryx Battlebox. You get more arc nodes that you will use, rather than the two heavies that you will most likely not use. Also Denny1 is still one of the best casters in the game.

>>48623382
>The only time where OP or UP stuff really becomes important is high level tournaments.
I want this very wrong assumption to end. Casual play is hit worst by bad balancing.

>>48623670
>you will never use a slayer

Slayers are great and will see use. He's better off getting 2 heavies who do different things than a shit load of lights who all do the basic same thing.

>>48623726
And new players playing casually is where just about any list can win because people are still learning how the game works, and don't know how to squeeze every drop of power out of models.

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>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
>tfw your elf waifu is a murder machine

>>48623972
Any list can win due to completely stupid reasons but that doesn't mean someone playing E Haley VS Garryth is a fair match up in MKII

>>48623957
The slayer is not better than the Inflictor or the Harrower or any character jack. AKA the only heavies worth taking.

>>48623726
This is pretty wrong. At the casual/local level you can win with pretty much anything if you're good enough. A good player can win with the worst caster and a brand new/bad player can lose with the most overpowered caster in the game.

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>>48624112
Ah yes, I had forgotten Warmahordes was the land of no fun allowed

>>48624112
Are you retarded? The jacks are playable. You don't start the game by buying 2 colossals and Epic Haley now do you?

>>48624112
I'm not too sure about this. Sure, Inflictor, Bathroom and Erebus are crazy good, but they are all limited by either FA or purpose (after 2-3 shield guards you'll probably not need any more). So if we're getting into hard jack spam, the Slayer could become very useful on the basis of being generic and cheap.

>>48624119
>At the casual/local level you can win with pretty much anything if you're good enough.
Then that's because you're a non-casual player among casual players. Doesn't really count as casual play.

>>48624161
Fun Fact: At a recent large German tournament, the caster with the best win/loss ratio was Haley2. The queen still rules.

>>48624112
By that logic, why play Cryx at all? Cygnar is clearly more powerful at the moment, so Cryx aren't worth playing.

>>48624112
I'm a little behind on skus, did they start selling full character jacks again, or are you saying you don't want a box that has a reaper and a slayer in it, but you want say, Malice and Erebus that you'd need them to build anyway.

>>48624159
what part of having your arms shot off to nyss hunters is fun?

>>48624161
Yes, they are playable. No, they are not the best option especially when you can get arm 19, reach and shield guard for 3 points more.

I would personally rather invest in slightly fewer quality jacks.

>>48624264
By that logic, why play anything but Khador or Ret?

>>48624304
And you think people give a shit what YOU would rather do? The jacks are playable, the guy will have fun trying them out and will know more about the game than him just jamming what you like playing with.

If you buy a faction deck in War Room, does it unlock the mercs and minions they can hire, or do you need like 3 decks to have everything available?

>>48624505
You need the merc and minion decks separately. Yes, it's dumb.

>>48624112
>The slayer is not better than the Inflictor or the Harrower or any character jack. AKA the only heavies worth taking.
What is the point of this comment? Of course the slayer isn't better than other jacks that cost more points than it does and/or do something entirely different.

We get it, the Slayer can get shot down pretty easily. It's not fantastic, but it's cheap enough that that's ok. There are casters that can cover that weakness, and support units that can help with it.

The bigger thing is its cost. Being 10 points in a world where casters have to spend 25-30ish WJ points means the slayer will get taken just because it fits. There will be times you downgrade to a light and upgrade something else, of course, but there will be times when squeezing in one more heavy is what you want (even if it's a crappy heavy).

>>48624318
The point's the same. Yes, some things are better than others. That doesn't mean those models or factions which aren't the very best on offer shouldn't be played. They might not be the best, but it doesn't mean they're bad either, and often have specialist/niche uses the 'best' option doesn't.

>>48624910
I think what several Anons were trying to say is basically this:

(1) The game is not perfectly balanced, but it's reasonably close. The OP models are probably somewhere around 5% - 10% more efficient, point for point, than the UP models.

(2) At high levels of play (as in regional and national tourneys), where both players know every model inside and out and the smallest mistake can be fatal, a 10% difference in model efficiency is an almost insurmountable advantage. This is the cause of all the internet hyperbole regarding good and bad models.

(3) On the other end of the spectrum, when you're still learning the game (or even just still learning your list), player skill plays a much larger than 10% difference in list performance game to game. So the relative importance of choosing the "right" models is much smaller.

One of the biggest mistakes as a WMH Hordes player (and we've all done it) is "Blame The List". We blame the list for losses, and we blame it for wins. But the truth is, most of the time, we win or lose because of deployment, spacing, resource allocation, etc. Bottom line - stop worrying so much about your list, just play what seems fun to you, and get something on the table. You'll improve faster as a player if you build fewer lists and play more games.

>>48621492
They can't. It's a sad existence belonging to an organization with such a gereric name.

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>>48618940
>>48618960
>charge
>kill
>free teleport from blood boon

Around elves...

>>48625173
Yea, this is the big thing.

Like, anymore, I often win or lose games on inches, and those inches make a huge difference.

Had a Lucant vs Karchev game where he got just a bit too far forward, and it let me trade a heavy and then feat. Without that early advantage, it would have been a much nastier, drawn out game.

>>48625173
Sometimes a model really is trash, see Daemon for Ret. Its expensive, not too good at punching, and its gun rarely gets to do the special thing.

>>48625729
Charge, kill, shoot out a convection with your blood boon, spend focus to teleport, laugh as you have an extra focus on a jack and killed an extra model.

>>48625964
In Mk2 the Daemon was great for Sentinel marshalling. Pronto was such a boon for that gun.

>Malakov rules released
>itsfuckingnothing.jpg
>go to PP forum
>everyone shitting themselve
>raving about backstabbing Uhlans and MoWs and shit

I love that they won't let things like rules get in the way of their optimism.

>>48626730
These are the same people that force themselves to try to make kossites work.

>>48625173
List building is still a part.
You can't take any old shit with anything and expect to eventually win because you play enough. What's Karchev going to do with an army full of cavalry?

>>48626730
At least he wasn't Aiakos.

Aiakos < Malakov < Durant = Jakes < Elara

>>48626762
The Khador forums are always like that. They were the same when Zerkova2 came out. Then it turned out she was pretty boring and a bit of a one-trick pony.

I said as much at the time but no one listened.

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>>48622910
I just hate that, to do it, I'd have to repaint nearly 100 minis. And the 'jacks would be trouble, as PP plastic does not let go of paint with Simple Green alone.

>>48627582
Your army looks too good to strip. Honestly the color scheme I was playing with isn't enough incentive for me to start another faction. Metallic peach/orange may look like crap anyway.

>>48626762
>>48627249
The battle plan might be useful for hard flanking stuff like Kossites, ironically.

Note that it's additional die to hit and damage, for example.

>>48617009
Last weekend at Polish Championship I've seen Madrak2 playing against Cephalyx with a sea of Drudges. After killing Thexus he had 11 Fury left, killed a Monstrosity or two on his way and about 30 Drugdes.

>>48626846
I don't think Aiakos is that bad. He looks like Cryx's version of Strakov desu and can launch the Kraken 13" plus 4" reach across the board if he goes all in. Add puppet strings and something like a machine wraith to carry ST where you need it and that's very hard to hide from.

I'd expect Tristan to run gun jacks and 1 unit of bastions/cinerators, shoot on the way in then cast MD and countercharge.

>>48626730
You forget that Khador spent all of Mk2 getting shit on. We got good at attempting to polish turds.

>>48628478
You forget the battle plan has RNG 5.

Getting your caster within 5" of "hard flanking" Kossites will be tricky and probably suicidal.

Allison looks pretty damn good.

Escort to get in range+Positive charge to kill+sprint to move to a good position afterward for allies to kill something else.

Actually she seems to work great with Sword Knights. They're cheap and have flank Faction Warjack, so they would make a great follow up for that Positive charge jack from earlier swinging mat 10 pow 12 and weapon master.

She doesn't have any troop upkeep spells, so Marrowan Knights may work.

On feat turn they all get reach and electro leap for greater fuckery.

Feat gives the entire army reach too.

>>48628765
But is he better than any of the others in your eyes? Being bottom of this barrel doesn't necessarily mean shit.

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>>48627996
I think the bronze (possibly washed and then highlighted to tone back the sheen), earth tones,and blues/greens to offset would look good on everything but their 'jacks. Ret design does not allow for many patterns due to the lack of details on myrmidons. If you choose a color, you have to be prepared for it covering 90% of a 'jack, and then 10% secondary+trimming. And I don't have an airbrush to do anything fancy either.

>>48628934
And then bring a normal Junior to run a Hunter n Charger for ranged support and upkeep on either those Sword Knights or a unit of Stormblades.

>>48627996
Copper and Green would look pretty good on Ret. Got a good scheme for that too.

>>48628964
I'd say better than Malakov who really only has his battles plans going for him. Try comparing Malakov to Kozlov for example, given how many features they share.

>>48618932
>>48618940
>>48618960
She looks good, and is actually a lot like I thought she'd be, but I don't see why people all over the place are frothing at the mouth over how OP she is.

People keep saying she turns MHAs into a 16inch radius of "no casters here", but Ghostly doesn't let models ignore LoS.

That said, she and Jakes are without a doubt the best of the bunch. She also might be the first CQC assassin caster that does the whole sneaky fast assassin from the shadows thing and is actually good at it too.

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>>48629078

Not the guy you replied to.

What I do is spray paint my jacks a solid color, do the detailing, then ink and wash the shit out of the flat color with a darker shade. It's easy, looks ok, and breaks up the monotony of a pure color.

>>48629177
Garyth needs Apparition as a base rule like she has and maybe side step.

Does Ret now have the highest overall Focus stat in the game? Percentage wise, I mean?

Garryth: 6
Ravyn: 6
Thyron: 6
Vyros1: 6
Vyris2: 6

Ossyan: 7
Helynna: 7
Kaelyssa: 7
Elara: 7

Rahn: 8
Issyria: 8

>>48628841
Not as bad as you think, sucker is a really good defensive mechanic.

>>48629233
Does PP even make Focus/Fury 5 casters anymore? I think they realized it's not fun and very hard to make right.

>>48629251
They only bumped a single one up to 6 in this last edition.

>>48629266
Yeah but have they released any NEW ones? I guess Lylyth has to stay Fury 5, but do you think any future casters will get the 5?

>>48629251
I would never wish fury/focus 5 on anyone. I think its especially sad that they then proceed to punish them for having less casting stat by having tiny spell lists. I expect a 5 fury/focus caster to be able to make their fury go far. And then it doesn't.

>>48629078
You can do gradient schemes for Ret if you wanna spice it up a bit.

>>48629318
Lylyth 3 might be too strong at fury 6. But I don't think it would overpower her previous two incarnations at all.

>>48629318
Maybe Zaadesh2, Fyanna2 or Horgle2 depending on Passives/Spells/Feats

>>48629339
I mean, it can be done right.

The Dwarf, for example, has one of the straight up best feats in the entire game, and the whole issue he has is getting close enough to use it.

But if he gets it off, it's almost always a win for him.

>>48629251
I'm not sure that would even matter.

Cygnar is considered a high FOC faction, and they have the same number of 'casters with a FOC stat above six as Ret. Ret, however, has only a little over half the number of warcasters the Swans do.

>>48629371
It would matter a lot.

Ret essentially came into being during MK2. I don't think PP has made any new focus/fury 5 characters since mk1. Thus of course Ret would have a skewed average since they have no legacy casters.

5 focus/fury casters going epic just continues to skew these averages.

>>48629339
Yeah. Fury/Focus 5 wouldn't be such a problem if there wasn't so much derived from it.

>>48629361
Don't you fucking say that. Don't give PP ideas. We had 6 minimum for the WM journeymans. I just want the same for hordes.

>>48629541
I don't think PP makes 5's anymore. At this point I think they decided to stop introducing them into the game.

>>48629078
I think four things could really help break up the plain areas on Retribution 'jacks.
>Camouflage
If you're using the studio scheme apply large light grey shapes to the model.
>Gradient shading
An airbrush is ideal for this.
>Battle damage
Small scrapes and chips of paint.
>Dirt and mud
A tiny bit of splatter.

Any one of these (or a combination) would help if used sparingly.

>>48629184
Looking at my work up close and with good lighting I see that I missed some places with the shading wash. near the elbows and at the thigh tops.

At least it looks ok on the field.

>>48629537
Not only can I barely run a battlegroup at 5, but I have a small spell list to pull my tricks from. Totally hate it.

>>48629541
Fury is obviously stronger than Focus, so don't expect the same treatment.

Or so someone would make the case. A 5 can be fine provided you have Maltreatment and abilities that mitigate the effects of low Fury. For example, Field Marshal [Long Leash] or a feat that extends further than the Ctrl area based on effects [ie. Haley2/Xerxis2].

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Based on a recent podcast, Hungerford revealed that back in MK2 Absylonia 2 was being considered for the Synergy spell, but access to Harriers ended up killing the idea after a mean lesser spam list came up in their internal. He cited True Strike as the reason behind it.

With synergy capped and true strike dead, do you think Fyanna might be our synergy lock? With how much these WM journeymans like their battlegroups I think its possible.

>>48629761
Fury is stronger than focus, but thats never the only variable. Spell lists, special rules, combat abilities and defensive statlines matter as well. Available models too.

I absolutely believe that warlocks are not stronger than warcasters when all variables are accounted for.

>>48629233
Cryx only has four casters with focus 6 (pSkarre, Terminus, eSturgis, eAiakos), the rest are 7, except for the Coven.

>>48619811

The bird helmet is adorable.

>>48629835
>>48629761
In Mk2, Fury was absolutely stronger than Focus.

Now though, I'm not so sure. Focus lost a shit ton of it's weaknesses, and while it did lose one of it's biggest strengths, a lot of anti-warmachine stuff went to anti-everything stuff.

>>48630314
I was saying that fury as a mechanic was stronger than focus. I still believe this. However in MK2 it wasn't enough to make hordes stronger than warmachine. Warmachine still had better tournament results and I don't see that changing in MK3.

There will always be exceptions though treehaley in Circle for example. Fuck that noise.

>>48630494
A lot of Warmachine's power was riding on the fact that they simply had the most fuckoff casters.

Those same casters would have been just as much of fuckers if they were warlocks. If anything, they'd have been stronger.

>>48630532
Warmachine also had (and still has, but less so) better non-battlegroup models in MK2. Their solos and units were insane.

>>48630576
There's some debate to be had in that.

PGBHs were arguably the strongest support models in Mk2, and then you start talking about stuff like Shifting Stones(especially pre nerf), Willbreakers, Shepards and the like, all of which were also pretty insane.

>>48630617

Explain all those Skorne Zaal theme force players then. You gave people a $250 dollar option to play units and solos as if they were Warmachine and not Hordes... at the cost of not being able to play beasts or beast handlers. The models were useless in other lists.

NOBODY. COMPLAINED. It saw steady play from mk2 begining to end. Players were like jehovah's witnesses when they talked about it.

>>48630712
I hope something like it comes back in mk3. That shit was cool.

>>48629801
and become literally Amon 2.0?

fuck that.

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>>48630159

>bought a Cephalyx army after quitting in mk2 because they looked cool and fun
>realize I don't actually enjoy the game much at all anymore
well fuck
what are my options here

>>48631018

Just flip it on ebay. You could probably get something like 70-80% of the value for it. People like Cephalyx, and they remained pretty good in Mk3.

Anyone have that dumb picture of Magnus good luck Im behind 9 nomads? I need it!

new potential fag here.

I'm having a lot of paralysis here trying to decide on a force to make, could use some advice.

Cygnar: Captain Kraye and Trenchers are the main thing that interest me. Rest of their warcasters I don't care for, not particularly interested in jacks. Can you make an infantry heavy force feasible?

Convergence: others folks have told me they're complicated for new players. They're warcasters are blinged the fuck out, but their infantry and vectors are pretty boring.

Everblight: overall tolerable war casters. Really interested in light beasts, nephilim, and nyss legionaries. Something workable there?

I think I'm most nervous about being a stickler for specific models and themes. It seems the game is designed with balanced forces in mind -- I like the idea of taking only the units I think are the tits, regardless of synergies. Should I just try to get over it or rethink the hobby?

Thanks for any advice!

>>48630953
Sounds great. Like Amon but with a cooler model and cooler battlegroup.

>>48631193
>Cygnar: Captain Kraye and Trenchers are the main thing that interest me. Rest of their warcasters I don't care for, not particularly interested in jacks. Can you make an infantry heavy force feasible?

Trenchers were buffed, and are some of the best infantry in game at moment.

>Convergence: others folks have told me they're complicated for new players. They're warcasters are blinged the fuck out, but their infantry and vectors are pretty boring.

They're comparatively complicated, but incredibly strong.

>Everblight: overall tolerable war casters. Really interested in light beasts, nephilim, and nyss legionaries. Something workable there?

Uh. Nephilim were overall nerfed, legionaires were nerfed, and light beasts have never been points effective. Raeks are useful, and the naga has it's place when its ability is necessary, but everblight is a heavy beast faction for the most part.

>>48631193
>Cygnar
Kraye is an odd caster, trading a spell list for two very powerful passive abilities for his battlegroup. He is very much a jack-heavy caster, so if you don't like jacks you probably won't like him.

Trencher infantry are one of cygnars best units, combining competent shooting and melee ability with very strong defensive abilities in dig in, tough, and smoke bombs. They can work with any cygnar caster, though some like them more than others.

Whether or not infantry-heavy cygnar works in mark 3 is yet to be determined, though it is worth mentioning that some of cygnars best infantry are actually their two cavalry units, stormlances and blazers, though all of them are at least playable with the right caster except for stormguard and precursors.

Again, Kraye is not the caster you want for an infantry-heavy force.

>Convergence
Not that much more complicated than the regular factions. You'll need to figure out how induction works, but that's it really, and you will have far fewer models to learn than other factions.

>Everblight
Their workhorses are their heavy beasts. Nephilim are kinda bad outside of some lists that want one bolt thrower so their caster can get snipe. You can find uses for a decent chunk of the lights, and among the lessers shredders are still good, but Everblight is essentially unplayable without a core of heavy beasts to fo the heavy lifting (this applies to pretty much every faction: light beasts/jacks can do some support stuff or shooting, while heavys do the real work). Legionnaires are unspectacular but playable, but you don't want more than one unit of them.


What sort of list works depends very heavily on your warcaster/lock. Very few things are good with every caster, and spamming multiples of the same unit is often (but definitely not always) a bad idea.

>>48631193
As car as CoC goes, I think Mk3 did make them more complicated, but it's still a thing of them not being so much more complicated as being incredibly focused on Order of Activation things. Every faction has to learn to use it, but CoC has to learn it faster and focus on it more.

CoC's biggest thing is that their warcasters have a huge, huge effect on the nature of their army over most other factions, and that's in a game where your choice in warcaster defines your army.

So while there's only 5 casters in the faction, they're all hugely different in how they play.

I'm the menoth player that got shit from his brother. Needless to say I don't have an eye for balance or power. More questions.

Why is amon popping up here and on forums as the best caster in menoth, maybe the game?

Is it worth investing in more infantry (currently have bastions and errants) or an avatar?

Is Harbinger still worth her dollars? Love the model.

Covenant, yea or nay?

Thanks guys you all are super helpful.

>>48631812
Oh also forgot to ask how Menoth as a whole sits in regards to the other factions.

>>48631812

1) Mk3 made warjacks really good, Amon runs them well, thus he is excellent.
2) Yes, Idrians are good, Knights Exemplar are good, Flameguard are good. Avatar is a bit pricey but can be made to work.
3) Not really, Harbinger had her time, and she CAN still be used, but she's not the old auto-include she once was.
4) Yea, Covenant a best.

>>48631824
>>48631897
Oh, and in regard to Menoth on the whole, it's in the upper half of factions for sure, maybe in the top 5? I could see top 5. Mk3 looked like a nerf from some standpoints but it was a re-imagining.

>>48631812
>>48631897
How about Errants?

>>48631897
What makes Harbinger lackluster? 10 focus 20 range seems soooo good. 4 Jacks, each getting a free focus can be bumped to 3 and she has 2 leftover. And that's assuming you want 3 on each. Her feat +avatar seems fun, but I definitely see how there are better feats. Her huge range blast that gets lower pow the further you are away looks dope too. Like I said, no eye for balance.

>>48632259
She used to be way, way stupider and got nerfed. The Menite community is still recovering from this.

So topic:
Apparently the new War Room and card format is to allow yearly errata that can update models and rules based on play and tournament data.

Which factions/models are legitimately in need of a nerf or buff?

For example: Houseguard Halberdiers are a great unit that work with a lot of lists, but have existing weaknesses and counters. They do no need a nerf.

The Rhinodon is a 12 point heavy Warbeast that can't actually fullfill the role it was seemingly designed for compared to similar budget heavies in other factions. (7 point Mad Dog from Khador is the "trample" jack 10 point Marauder is the "slam jack") Rhinodon is not the "anti-shieldwall/infantry" beast since it has no reach, low pow, low speed, low defense, and low armor.

>>48632555
>Muh Skorne suck

You do understand that models points cost has to be taken into account by what's around them correct? A 10 point Heavy in a faction full of Jack buffs is going to out perform a 10 point heavy in a faction with no buffs.

Maybe you just suck and you should play a real faction instead of the shitty weeaboo katana one instead.

>>48632555
Hordes barring minions need a massive overhaul.

The internal balance is incredibly out of whack where things are just inferior by sheer math.

for a luxury wishlist, I want Mulg to be good again at STR 13 and Fury 5 again. I don't care if he's gonna be over Rok in cost and I don't care if he doesn't get protective fit or relentless. It's fucking Mulg. He should be the pinnacle of our heavies with maximum stat ceiling like the behemoth, not be a budget heavy option.

>>48632555
Rhinodon needs a role
Makeda1 needs something to help her round out her concept - I'd recommend Stay Death from Makeda1
Morghoul2 - needs to ditch Flesh Hooks for something - anything to solidify him as an assassin

>>48632604
Hordes players don't take into account that their fury double taps, the way it manipulates dice odds (2 focus on a jack, oops snake eyes, guess I needed 3 but can't fix that now vs buy another attack at any time) and the way it enables you to have 20-30 fury alpha turns.

Hordes used to get absolutely everything, now it has to play fair and people are whining it's under powered because they won't invest the time in learning to use it.

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I refuse to believe this wasn't planned.

>>48632655

Mk2
Blighted Ogryn and Nyss Swordsmen. Same cost, but Nyss Swordsmen are taken more often.

Mk3
Blighted Ogryn nerfed, remain the same cost as swordsmen. Swordsmen did no get nerfed, stayed the same cost as Blighted Ogryn.

why

What I want to see
3 more hit boxes on Ogryn Heavy Infantry.

>>48632712
Medium based shit all took a nerf bat to the face so heavy Jacks would be more playable.

>>48632787
Blighted Ogryns were never a real threat to heavies. At least not in the way Demo Corp Man o Wars were with their choice of back swing or weapon master.

>>48632712
You forgot that Swordsman got more melee range so that their cleave+overtake from the UA is actually good now.

>>48632896
Damage wasn't the issue, survivability was. Why take a light when you can use the same points for 5 models instead?

>>48632655
Warmachine players don't take into account that it was Warmachine dominating the professional play. You are just mad that Hordes had good battlegroups for 2 editions longer than you.

>>48632787
There is a different between nerf and becoming a model type that rarely if ever sees play.

>>48632968
Warmachine had a big advantage at high level play that has nothing to do with the game balance. By the end of a big tournament you're fucking exhausted, you're tired, hungry and you've been on your feel for 5-8 hours both physically and mentally. Doing fury maths at that point is fucking cancerous to you, you will fuck up multiple times in a game no matter how well you know the army or match up. Warmachine doesn't have this problem, it is always a fixed amount so you basically auto pilot it in a way that you can't Hordes.

There is also no way you can balance this problem because even though Circle and Legion were easily top tier in MKII they still required more mental work than warmachine does, which adds up over the day.

>>48632948

That logic kind of falls apart when you look at Man o War Shock Troopers. Especially with UA.

Blighted Ogryn were never really sturdy.

>>48630617
>PGBH
Are
1) worse than the choir
2) the only reason Skorne beasts don't sit at P+S16 (though some heavies still do even after Enrage)

Beast Handlers are not a strong support unit. Beast Handlers are a tax.

>>48631193
>Cygnar
Thing is, Kraye loves Jacks. So if you dislike them that could be a problem.

>Convergence: others folks have told me they're complicated for new players
Yeah people say dumb things all the time.

>Everblight
Kallus or Kryssa might be what you are looking for. Maybe others, but I'm not too well versed in Legion things.

>>48633071
You mean Khador gets better medium based infantry because that's part of their faction identity? Also the fact that Khador has no light jacks so they're not stepping on any toes by existing?

Damn son, let me tell you about Retribution small based infantry. It's goddamn awesome because even in a game now pushing away from infantry it's faction identity relies on it.

>>48633171

Now son, the only light jacks that are as sturdy as shocktroopers are the vigilant.

>>48633131
How are they worse than Choir?

They had healing, fury management, +2 damage rolls, and could serve as decent anti single wound infantry.

>>48633221

Choir's most important use is preventing damage while the jacks trudged slowly across the battlefield.

That Crusader is not living in fear of your Hunters and Defenders since Choir buddy is protecting him.

Rhinodon just ate a boosted shot to his (with animus) 11 armor and a boosted pow 15 to his 20 armor and he's still not gonna be in combat this turn.

>>48633284
I mean, if we're talking Mk2, then why were people taking Hunters or Defenders?

>>48633313
Did Paingivers get some new ability that can keep their beasts safe life Choir can?

MK3 didn't change a thing in that regard. Paingivers are a poor mans choir.

>>48633353
You're kind of retarded, aren't you?

>>48633221
The fury management was grossly overrated. In the hands of at least an average player it was hardly ever used.

The +2STR was and is needed to make Skorne heavies not suck. The Gladiator/Cannoneer/Sentry are P+S16 without it. The Bronzeback is P+S 17 without it. The fucking Archidon is P+S 14 without it. Taking beast handlers was never an option. It was mandatory to make our beasts not suck total ass.

The healing is nice, but is nowhere near the same level of the hard immunities of the Choir.

>>48633585
The shooting immunity is hardly "hard"

>>48633566
Please tell me how Paingivers fulfill the same role as the choir.

>>48633618
They don't fill the same role, you idiot.

>>48633616
Immune to non-magical shooting.

The majority of things that shoot are non-magical man. What? Your Gun mages are all gonna critical brutal my Crusader?

The only faction whos shooting fucks with me is Ret. Gorgons slowing my shit, Banshees slamming and knocking down my shit, Hydras softening my shit, ect

>>48633642

Did you forget that this is how the conversation started?

>>48633131
>>48633221

We're comparing the two.

>>48633616
The choir lets you choose between 100% immunity to one of two extremely common offensive measures. How exactly is that not extremely hard immunity.

>>48633618
+2STR. Only in Protectorate that's +2 to an already acceptable STR stat and in Skorne it's elevating our beasts to average levels.

>>48633642
>>48633566

>I can't defend my assertions so I'll call the other guy retarded

How about to talk about the game instead ?

>>48633672
If murder a choir, the Protectrate Jacks can still total my heavies. If I murder a bunch of paingivers the Gladiator may leave my heavy alive to retaliate.

>>48633645
Convergence having universal access to magical shooting.

Skorne having a solo that gives any model magical weapons.

Most of Circle's big guns being magical

A&H can still give a unit magical weapons

Minion solo that gives models magical weapons

There's a ton of magical shooting in the game, man.

>>48633672
We're talking about Mk2 support solos man. So +2 STR and Free charges on Fury 4 beasts that came with three initials.

Yea, it's not as good in Mk3, but we're not talking about Mk3.

And most of the choir's power was that +2 to hit, not to the damage.

>>48633686
If he's going to purposely misunderstand what I'm saying and why I'm saying it, then I see no reason to have an honest discussion with him.

>>48633751
>We're talking about Mk2 support solos man
I'm not. Mk2 is over and done. It's irrelevant now. Yes, Beast Handlers were a bit better in Mk2, but then again so was most of Skorne.

>>48633786
Then why the fuck are you talking about this?

The discussion was about how Hordes MK2 didn't lack for top tier support models and solos.

>>48633751
When did this shift to mk2 discussion?

>>48633797
I honestly don't give a shit. You can care about Mk2 if you want, but it's over. Anyways:

Mk2 choir > Mk2 handlers
Mk3 choir > Mk3 handlers

>>48633799
It didn't shift to MK2, it started as MK2.

>>48630617

>>48633831
Christ man, why are you even discussing this?

Like, you don't need to flop your flaccid Menoth dick around to make yourself a big man.

>>48633855
What exactly are you trying to say here? I'm just reading noise.

>>48633866

over here
>>48633686

He's just mad that you're right.

>>48633866
I'm asking what you're trying to discuss.

What point are you trying to make here? What resolution do you see?

The discussion was about MK2 support pieces that were powerful in Hordes.

>>48633926
The initial post was about Mk2. The entire fucking post chain was about Mk3. You know, the edition that matters?

>>48633933
The entire time I was fucking talking about MK2, that's my god damn point.

The topic at hand wasn't about Mk3, and anyone discussing Mk3 was an idiot.

>>48633171
What do you mean Khador has no light jacks? They have 2 heavy jacks at light jack prices. Mad Dog and Berserker. They aren't as good as heavies, but they are definitely better than lights.

Heavy infantry being good would probably be good for the meta. They used to be able to survive gunlines.

>>48621284
Take Gallant, put Bullet Dodger on it, hello 15/19 spell immune sprinting heavy with a P+S18 2" Purgation sword, with Positive Charge when it really needs to just kill the world.

As a Magnus2 player I'm mildly salty that Jakes stole my trick and probably does it better.

>>48634312
Jakes1 under Haley3 already does it pretty damn well.

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>>48629233
Look at the numbers in the Protectorate

>>48634337
Putting a 17pt heavy on a jouneyman is too risky for my taste, there will always be some matchup where you can't get the work you need out of it because something that can kill Jakes is running around and she has to hide like a bitch.

>>48634363
With Haley3 you can easily keep her behind a cloud wall. Also damage reduction from focus made journeypeople a lot more survivable in MK3.

>>48634376
Is Haley3 going to play into Cryx ever? Because as a Cryx player I will absolutely use three activations and my entire focus stack to send a Ghost Walk'd arc node deep and blast her to shit with a bunch of boosted spells.

It's a cute trick, and no doubt it catches a good number players off guard, but it isn't legitimately good. She just has to play too far forward to support a nogunz warjack to avoid dying to prepared lists.

>>48634424
Until you commit the jack she can easily be 12" behind the cloud wall. You're not getting an arc node that deep without it being engaged with something.

Also do keep in mind that reactivating jacks is not nearly as horrible in Mk3 as it was in Mk2.

>>48629251
>Does PP even make Focus/Fury 5 casters anymore?
Yeah, they're all in Skorne.

>>48630532
>Mk2 - A lot of Warmachine's power was riding on the fact that they simply had the most fuckoff casters.
Sure, I could agree with this statement... if Circle and Legion didn't exist. Those two are basically Hordes' take on Cygnar and Cryx, and I'd say if anything they had MORE "fuckoff" casters. Lylyth2, Vayl2, Krueger2, Bradigus, Morvahna2, etc all would have been just as brutal to play against if they'd been warcasters instead of warlocks (assuming comparable tiers, support pieces, etc).

>>48634376
I'm pretty sure that the new focus armour is so much better than fury transfers that shit's just unfair. The damage just floats away into the aether, whereas in Hordes you basically have to be able to sacrifice half a beast to not instantly lose, and that beast can't be maxed out at the time. Focus is so much better now it's unreal.

>>48629339
Well in Skorne, Morg1 and Xerxis1 are among their best locks right now, and they're fury 5. Morg1 is pseudo fury 6. They have skewed defensive stats to make up for it, Morg being 16/14 with dodge, and Xerxis being 13/18 with tough. Morg has Abuse and Admonition though, which are both hella strong, especially since Abuse works well with our lesser warlock Zaadesh. Xerxis has Defender's Ward which is still really good on Cetrati, perhaps even better with the Agonizer's buffs. Rift costs 3 fury though lel. Maybe bring Marketh for that one.

>>48635360
It's always been that way, though. If anything, the plus ARM from camping made it even worse. Remember invulnerable Butcher/Terminus/Vlad?

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So I'm a big fan of the 'super-heavy' Cygnar Warjacks. How well do they do in Mrk3 and what Warcasters do they do well with?

>>48635548
The Avenger likes snipe, the Centurion likes Arcane Shield and the Hammersmith likes Assail.

>>48632896
You clearly never met pThags BB + double Warspears in MK2.....

>>48635548
Putting Arcane Shield on a Centurion is possibly one of the most infuriating things to deal with in the entire game for many lists/factions. It just takes a big fat dump in the middle of the scenario and most people won't have any way to deal with it.

Avenger needs Snipe, otherwise he's too slow and low range to do anything. Hammersmith needs a speed buff to function, if he's got that he's pretty good.

>>48629801

Might be nice.

I don't see much of a reason to run any lessers in MK3 at the moment, so any little boost might be nice. If she does have Synergy, I hope they didn't shit on the lessers in advance just so they could sell a Synergy caster.

>>48635548

The centurion is a monster.

>>48635673

To be fair it came out super late into MK2 and requires a $100+ dollar model, so outside of rich or dedicated players you'd be hard pressed to find it in the wild.

I can't recall if it ever had a tournament presence either.

>>48635548

Nemo3 Centurion is ARM23 and is fully fueled for only 1 of nemos focus, you can then imprint and run meaning that Centurion:

Cannot be charged
Cannot be knocked down
Cannot be placed
Cannot be pushed
Cannot be moved by a slam

and when an enemy hits it, they are pushed 1" directly away.

try it sometime, that thing will hold a zone against an entire army

>>48636676
Fuck me, how do stop something like that?

>>48636936
Play a ranged list.

>>48636936
Aiakos' White Squall

>>48636936
Stationary and then slip around and attack from the back arc.

Upkeep removal and then normal schenanigans.

Get something with two open fists, and then throw him and laugh.

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conflictchamber.com updated to allow editing list pairs (when a list is in Steamroller mode).

Also the new grownup journeymen are in.

>>48637577
Fuck, the header on the second list isn't updated properly. sec...

>>48637577
Nice work, anon!

>>48632712
>Ogryn
How hard can it be to spell one five-letter word? Are you one of these knuckle-chewers who calls the heavy a Scytherian too?

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>>48637577
>>48637586

There, fixed.

conflictanon here, question: Are the new journeymen casters "released" now since they are (*were*, I didn't get a Durant2 in time, grumble) available online?

Working on adding pre-release status as a warning for validation.

Elara does not seem to be on Conflictchamber's Retribution section, fyi.

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>>48637829

Both versions are there for me

>>48618932
>>48618940
Huh, from the picture I thought that she would have stealth or occultation

>>48631990
Nah man, Errants are outdone by any single other unit in faction at any single task and always for cheaper.

Shooting? Idrians.
Jamming? Flameguard.
Melee? Exemplars.

Sure, you could make the argument that Errants have flexibility, but at their extremely high point cost it doesn't become a jack-of-all-trades, but instead a weak unit that accomplishes less than its peers for a greater cost.

Oh, and always take Pyrrus with Flameguard, cause that dude is insane.

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Added pre-release checking to conflictchamber.

>>48638049
Also, I entered the pre-release stuff by hand, so there's plenty of opportunity for error in the data. If you don't mind, double-check your factions and see if I missed (or added) any in error.

Per http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?258203-GenCon-new-warcaster-ADR-clarification-tournament-legality , the new casters are not "pre-release".

>>48637981
If I already have the errants are they worth jamming in there until I get something ekse? Like how many games am I going to lose on the margin to errants vs something else

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So whatever happened with the new way themed lists work? How is it?

>>48638887
The new way is simply: Take x models only, get y benefits. There's no juggling tier levels within the theme or anything anymore.

So far only two theme lists are out, one for Cephalyx and one for Mercenaries. Both are pretty good, give a healthy chunk of free points and some solid extra abilities.

>>48637918
In the picture the spell runes say shes popping feat. Her feat gives everyone Ghostly, hence her phasing.

Also Apparition a sex.

>>48638797
The dude is full of shit. Errants are boss. They are a transition unit that pays off the smarter you use em.

>>48639379
>In the picture the spell runes say shes popping feat

I'd love it if that's literally what they said.

"I Apparition to the right, then I'm gonna pop my Feat, cast Marked for Death, and charge."

>>48639587
Can you link the rune translator?

>>48635767
Hell, if Synergy is the case I was gonna run blightwasps (maybe double wasps) and double neraph. Still not too many lessers.

>>48639402
>Errants are boss

Liar detected. Enjoy having your 20 point unit completely made worthless by infantry half the price.

>>48640379
So... no? I shouldn't even run them?