'Doesn't have rules!'

>>48514884
No, it's because pretentious games like Fate and Apocalypse World are garbage killing the industry.

If you want to tell a story, light a campfire and tell one. Don't call your barely cohesive "rules" a game when it isn't.

>>48514908
OK, see, you still didn't explain anything, you just repeated a meme

>>48514884
it comes from grognards who can't be bothered to utilize their imaginations for even one particular moment, lest someone experience fun

>>48514925
>Don't call your barely cohesive "rules" a game when it isn't.

Not a meme, just the facts.

>>48514931
Better off than some high school dropout afraid of numbers.

>>48514937
>only i get to decide what is a game despite clear and definitive evidence to the contrary
are you just mad nobody likes 3.5 anymore?

>>48514958
Ok. What's a game? What constitutes a game experience?

Since I'm clearly a strawman, like your post implies, enlighten me.

>>48514937
you could explain why a particular ruleset is less cohesive compared to another. instead i'm just getting empty words.

why waste three posts arguing when you could just be convincing in a single one?

>>48514958
Hey, I like 3.5 and I'm running a game of it right now and it was fairly popular when I posted it to gamefinder.

>>48514884
Because they're angry that the rules and settings can be casually changed and violated. Players are given control of things other than their characters and so start to actually compete with the GM

>>48514986
It's either a sport played according to rules (D&D) or an activity done for fun (FATE).

>>48515001
I don't get it. Apocalypse World and its descendants are mostly (well, the good ones anyway) incredibly strict with their rules.

Fate Core lets you pick how to model something, but it encourages consistency within the core model. I wouldn't change the rules in a Fate game any more than I'd change them in DnD or ChroD (i.e., with good reason and after discussion with players).

>>48515012
since when is DnD a 'sport' outside of ancient tournament modules?

>>48514884
Some people don't like the mechanics. That leads people to saying they're shallow or whatever. Apocalypse World is particularly weird because the players worldbuild and set up things with the GM(or whatever they call it) as the game plays. I think that's a good way to train other players to be a GM, others say it's the faggiest bullshit ever.

>>48515031
Since when is soccer a 'sport' outside of professional leagues?

>>48514988
>Convince me even though I poisoned the well and indicated I'm not interested in being dissuaded from my opinion.
How about you fuck yourself instead?

>>48515012
What is fun? What is a sport?

>>48515037
But you set the world up with the GM when you play DND too?
Like, if you're a generic human fighter who's an orphan because your village was burned down by orcs, you've just set up that your village once existed, but that orcs exist and burn down villages like yours.

What kind of retard thinks players can't affect the world? You're constantly affecting/building the world as you play the game.

e.g., in game, character asks "Where did you learn sword-swinging?"
(also in character) "oh uh it was with a group of mercenaries in the north"

bam, mercenaries now exist (or once existed) in the north and apparently are happy to train people that join them.

>>48515055
http://www.dictionary.com/

pick your definitions from there, recursively if you must, and save both yourself and anyone else in this dumb thread some time.

>>48515055
Fun is amusement or light-hearted pleasure.

A sport is an activity where individuals or teams compete against each other for entertainment.

>>48515063
Some GMs will say OOC "The north has no mercenary tribes, there is the barbarian tribes Zirgan and Worrickstams, and the city of Kalismet which has a strict army and no legal mercenaries, come up with a different backstory."

Just like some GMs might say "no, there are no furry catfolk in the setting of AdEva, you aren't allowed to play one."

I prefer my players making things up myself, but understand it has not always a place in a pre-established setting.

>>48515104
>Some GMs will say OOC "The north has no mercenary tribes, there is the barbarian tribes Zirgan and Worrickstams, and the city of Kalismet which has a strict army and no legal mercenaries, come up with a different backstory."

Unless said GM is actually planning a complex story with the barbarian tribes and the city, any GM who does so is being an ass for literally no gain. "Don't know the setting as well as me! haha fuck you!"

>>48515063
>>48515134
You'd have to see AW played to really get what I meant. The players have WAY more input than a game, but yes, any RPG could have the players participate, but it's part of the whole point of AW.

>>48515180
*in the game

>>48515001
See, this is what makes Dw, AW, and all its ilk so rediculous. "Competition against the GM" just proves how stupidly designed it is. There shouldn't be any competition with the GM, and the GM shouldn't be bound so tightly y the rules and by dice rolls that he has no choices on how to deal with the players that aren't entirely adversarial.

>>48515104
And in DW the players can force change the world arbitrarily. Suddenly you may have furries and monstergirls oming out of the woodwork. Why? Because one player said so. And no one gets to gainsay him.

Both of these situations ignore the fact that a homebrewed wrld can be constructed by GM and Players - and in fact is encouraged to be so by every RPG out there.

>>48515180
I've played Apocalypse World, and run a Monsterhearts campaign.

What I'm saying is that the ApocWorld experience isn't specific to that system - it's how every game is ideally played. ApocWorld just makes it explicit. The GM moves are just "how to be a good GM" in a codified form.

>>48515233
>Suddenly you may have furries and monstergirls oming out of the woodwork.

www.dungeonworldsrd.com

Please quote the section of the rules that lets a player do that

>>48514884

fa/tg/uys dont not like playing rpgs at all, but creating characaters, settings, rules, campaigns, just looking for plootholes or ways to make crunchier characters... at best, so the more rules there are the more fun they have. Rules lite games are the antifun for them.

While other users are just full of rage.

>>48515247
Any time the GM says "what do you know bout the world?"

Or worse, you're making the point that the players actually have NO control over the world after all, and the whole "player creating the world" spew is just a bunch of lies as well.

You don't get to have it both ways.

>>48515288
Fate's rules let you come up with your own rules for stunts, and as a diehard Pathfinder optimizer that's just the greatest shit to me. Now instead of being forced to rules lawyer or search through obscure rulebooks/ multiclass very specifically to play a specific character concept and still perform well, I can just make my own rules for that concept that play interestingly and keep it on par with the rest of the party.

>>48515357
Or, like any RPG, you can accept some things the players want and veto the bullshit? Seems pretty obvious to me.

>>48515357
You seem to have missed the big PbtA rule which is "you must follow the fiction".
That is, any declaration can be thrown out if the table feels it doesn't fit the established fiction of the world.

>>48515235
>What I'm saying is that the ApocWorld experience isn't specific to that system - it's how every game is ideally played. ApocWorld just makes it explicit. The GM moves are just "how to be a good GM" in a codified form.
Turns out the people who rag on *World games are That Guys?

>>48515432
Some people just don't like it. There's no reason to start wars over it.

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>Come back to /tg/ after more than two years, looking for some rpg discussion
>See this shit

Good to see you're still a) a bunch of cunts who can't stop trolling instead of having a good discussion, or b) a bunch of cunts who keep falling for it.

>>48515459
Yeah, OP here, there's totally reasons to dislike Apocalypse World and be turned off and whatever. I actually think the writing is less clear than it could be. Some of the playbooks need a touchup (2e is coming soon for a reason). Some people just really hate character classes in general, and, well, that's fine, it's not the game for them.

I just don't get the "IT HAS NO RULES" meme

>>48515395
>>48515423
>>48515432
It's really just "play pretend" by communal choice.

That's also why it's babby's first RPG and once you play it four or five times, you move onto something with actual depth.

>>48515478
I pick
>c) All of the above

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>>48515496

>It's really just "play pretend" by communal choice.

This doesn't apply to literally every RPG because...

Honestly, you really want a narrative system that allows the players to do whatever they like and have the game run by committee - or a GM light if you like - Amber diceless did it first, did it better, and wasn't pretentious or condescending about it.

>>48514884
it does have rules but it shoehorns everything into the one rule it has.

>Is it just because those people are incapable of understanding that rules aren't meant to be a 1-to-1 representation of the physics of the game world?
if you're playing a storytelling game maybe. simulationist elements are an integral element of rpgs as a whole, however.

thus:
cue in PbtA hatred

>>48515537
every game is run by committee, unless your GM kicks in the door, slams down the book and declares "WE SHALL PLAY, MY WORD IS LAW"

>>48515557
RPGs simulate things but the point is that they're intended to simulate genre, not physics.

my character can fall from a great height (or not) because the genre we're playing in allows falling from a great height and surviving (or not), not because the RPG has condensed the gravitational constant and weight calculations into a damage roll.

>>48515535
Because the mechanics of other RPGs place you squarely within the ruleset and systems the world is designed around. In other words, you get immersed in a world where the GM isn't just making everything up on the fly to try and create artificial drama using a dice system that purposefully hampers his role in the game.

The only function of the dice mechanic in DW/AW/etc. is to force the GM to do stuff. He doesn't really get any choices outside what the game allows for, because if he does something creative the game actively inhibits his ability to further develop that creativity.

There is no task more thankless than GMing *World games.

>>48515561
>I'll just ignore the relevant part of your argument and nitpick this part instead
Well argued.

>>48515235
>good gm
>does not provide an underlying world with its own physics
this meme must die

>>48515613
What choices do you believe are being limited?

For what it's worth, the Apocalypse World GM section literally begins with, exact words:
"There are a million ways to GM games; Apocalypse World calls
for one way in particular. This chapter is it. Follow these as rules.
The whole rest of the game is built upon this."

It's not like the game is hiding that it's a specific GMing style.

>>48515644
What games DO provide physics? Other than, I dunno, heavy GURPS and HERO?
DND3.x has hardness rules and durability but we're past that.

>>48514884

Oh, that's just flustered people overstating their case. Let's be clear here: Fate is a game. It is a boring, shitty, worthless, unfun game and everyone who likes it is a hipster numale, but it is totally a game.

>>48515586
it simulates the physics of that genre. how does AW does that again? how accurate is the simulation?

>gravitation
yes and conventional rpgs generally codify to provide the GM with some physics on how it is supposed to work in the stories in their setting.

>>48515613
>Because the mechanics of other RPGs place you squarely within the ruleset and systems the world is designed around. In other words, you get immersed in a world where the GM isn't just making everything up on the fly to try and create artificial drama using a dice system that purposefully hampers his role in the game.
this

>>48515679
>numale
>not playing Fate with chubby nerd girl QTs

>>48515586

That's wrong though. Some RPGs totally simulate physics and their entire rulebook is just basic physics of the world the RPG takes place in, condensed into an easier to use form.

>>48515664
does it have falling damage? does it have defined rules for movement per turn? does it define how certain circumstances modify combat abilities? yes? congrats, it has physics of some sorts.

and btw I am more lenient when it comes to FATE than when it comes to PtbA

>>48515686
>it simulates the physics of that genre

damn man, where can I look up the physics of different genres?

I literally haven't seen an RPG other than GURPS, HERO and DnD3 tell me how physics are meant to work in a core rulebook.

>how does AW does that again? how accurate is the simulation?

Since AW asks the players and GM to come up with how the apocalypse happened, you're asking a lot of a one-man indie RPG to have rules for "these are physics after nukes dropped", "there are physics after Earth exploded while you were all in space" and "these are physics now that it's Waterworld"

physics are irrelevant, genre and story convention is what matters to any game.

>>48515233
>I have preconceived notions on how games work and anything that doesn't fit that is wrong.

>>48515726
see >>48515712 for sample physics

>>48515726
>physics are irrelevant, genre and story convention is what matters to any game.

What if my genre is hard scifi? Physics still irrelevant?

>>48515712

Okay I understand hating Dungeon World but why Apocalypse World? Have you actually read it? Please actually read it a bit before you judge it. If you listen to DV Baker talk about it he says it's meant for character drama like in Firefly where the characters still pull together to help each other at the end of the day. In fact the classes of the game are basically ripped off of Firefly characters, like Jayne is the Gunlugger, Zoey is the Battlebabe, Wash is the Driver, Mal is the Operator, River is the Brainer, etc. etc.

The lack of detailed combat rules and sex rules are a bit weird, but I love alot of the ideas the game has. Like when you get hurt (because getting hurt always matters in this game) you roll +the damage you took to see if you stagger for a moment, or drop something, or it's just a scratch, or something else to modify the damage and give it more context in the game.

I won't pretend it's fantastic, just that I really like the setting idea, and how tightly designed the game is.

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>RULES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICS GUISE

Why not? That's where the rules gain their validity from. These "rules here are just an arbitrary way to settle disputes" gimmicks like Fate and whatnot always strike me as self-defeatingly pointless, because we already HAVE an arbitrary way to settle disputes. It's called "DM fucking decides". If that's all you have to offer, I'll stick with my infinite power to unilaterally decide everything, thank you.

Now, if you have a ruleset that provides a practical framework for the reality of the game world that makes said world feel like a real place, like good RPGs have, then I'll be listening. Then you might have something worth reading.

>>48515020

Trying to be neutral, I think the core of the problem is that people can't consider "rules" something that depends heavily on the fiction almost by itself and it's somehow "unpredictable".

DND: -I cast fireball, what happens? -*rolls" this square and this are affected (it's mostly implict and it's always the same- I will not repeat the effects, you know how it works)

DW: -I recite the mudras and my eyes hurl forth a ball of fire... it's fireball, 2d6 damage and no armor, DM, also it does damage to everyone nearby (notice that mechanically, well, this part is nothing really that strange, execpt for the generic "nearby", but I don't think the problem is that)... but shit, I got an 8 total. Gah. -You know the drill, -1 ongoing, lose it or unwanted attention? - I need my spells. Every one of them. I chose unwanted attention, I think that the orcs in the other rooms should... - As the flames engulf the giant, and btw roll damage for him and his pet wolf, a shadow emerges from the ancient coffin by which you are cowering yourself, Thief [and yes, this is a little fuckery from the DM. Which is good or at least supported, Suppose that they explored the room before and were a little vary of them]

And this is probably a crunchy mechanic for AW games. In Monsterhearts it would seem out of place.

I don't think the problem is really the fiction first here, it's the unpredictability of the rules output, that by themselves are way MORE rigid than GM fiat even in more recent edition of DND. Well, unpredictability execpt from the estabilished fiction: here I used an example in which the players know those strange coffins.
Seems absurd to me, but I can see why they feel like that.

There is also the input by the players that makes GM feel "threatened" in that they somehow are exposed (more than usual) to the fact that RPGs don't ever tell a story by a single individual at the table. Execpt maybe for Hikikomori, but...

>>48515613

Look man, you don't like AW games. That's fine.

But this is bullshit. AW GMs do like being that, if only for the reason that... well, we do know other games. Why wouldn't we use a gurps postapoc book if it was "thankless"? We enjoy being creative with those 9-, inventing NPC and -gasp!- inveting moves, which if you'd read book you would see are right there.
Simple as that.

>>48515861

>These "rules here are just an arbitrary way to settle disputes" gimmicks like Fate and whatnot always strike me as self-defeatingly pointless,

It's probably because they don't exist, anon.

>>48515986
The idea of Gm's being threatened by a nonexistent threat is rediculous. "That GM" and "That Guy" are the only people who would even be remotely 'threatened' by the idea of player narrative in a game that welcomes them - including D&D and so on and so forth, if the GM wants player input, he can take it.

The issue with *World games is that the GM is there to throw vague threats at the players and that's about it. He has no real purpose, because the game actively prevents him from being anything more than a plot device in murderhobo central (and for DungeonWorld this is a very literal case). If he would like an overarching plot, the game actively fights against his forwarding the plot, and the players might hamstring any kind of plot by accident through 'following the fiction'. Unless the players actually decide on a goal, the GM is shit out of luck, making him little more than a spinwheel for results on a snakes and ladders game.

And no one wants to be useless, anon. It isn't fun.

>>48516806
Someone doesn't know about Fronts.

>>48516806

You can feel threatend by something that you shouldn't fear.

And the other anon is right. At least read the book. Fronts are story going forward, dynamically.

>>48516806
different systems are better for different styles of game.

While even in D&D the GM can take imput from the players, that has to happen outside of the game system, and the system isn't set up to execute the game quickly.

If you want a game more about the players interacting within an established world and progressing thought out narrative, then having systems for increased player agency outside of their character isn't helpful.
If you want the players to have a more active hand in shaping the story and narrative, then those systems are good.

>>48515012
>D&D
>Sport

>>48517055
Silly anon, didn't you know that there is only the One True Way to play RPGs?

>>48515055
What is love?

>>48518311
Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me. No more.

>>48514884
How Fate works.
Roll some dice with an extreme curve. Add a skill bonus.
Items, equipment, circumstances, ect. ect. all have no effect on the roll. Just skill bonus.
DM makes something up.

Roll standardized dice.
DM makes something up.
That's it. Those are the rules. That's everything.

That isn't a system.

>>48518709
>Items, equipment, circumstances, ect. ect. all have no effect on the roll. Just skill bonus.
false.
you set the difficulty of the check based upon circumstances, including access to or lack fo tools.
Circumstances can also be providing aspects, which can be tagged for bonuses.

>DM makes something up.
that's what always happens after a roll determines success or failure.
Except perhaps in combat where there are more detailed rules about the damage the attack does. Like is also true in FATE.

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>>48518709

>Waah! I don't want a DM, I want a computer!
>Why can't tabletop be like my vidjeo gaymes?

The only difference with Apocalypse Engine games regarding the DM's creation of content is that it encourages him to make stuff up on the fly a little more than most systems. But if I didn't make it up on the fly, I made that shit up the morning before the session. All RPGs that have a DM are all over the DM making shit up. It's what makes RPGs work.

Unless maybe you only ever run modules by the book and never do anything the module author didn't expect. Then it's about the module author making shit up.

>>48514884
butthurt and forced memes