Why are so many D&D fans acting like if D&D was the standard,

The same reason Call of Duty remains the videogame world's favorite shooter despite being complete and absolute shit compared to the innovators in it's genre.

>>48483808
Retards?

>>48483814
That and good marketing.

>>48483824

It's called "First Mover Advantage" when you're discussing it seriously.

And what it means is that D&D is the standard because D&D is the standard.

>>48483790
>when in reality D&D is absolutely nothing like the most popular fantasy stories in both mechanics and feel?
What did he mean by this? I'm actually curious since I've heard people say "D&D fantasy" is a different subgenre from other fantasy but haven't given much for examples why.

>>48483790

D&D was the first commercially available RPG.

It literally is the standard, basic fantasy rpg that all other fantasy rpgs are spawned from.

Many are there own things and use their own systems and use their own settings, but the original commercially available rpg WAS D&D.

That line of reasoning that is similar to Magic the Gathering is the standard for all dueling wizard card games and all collectible trading card games. It is true.

>>48483845
Most fantasy isn't focused on a group of snowflakes raiding tombs and dungeons. Even the actual forgotten realms and dragonlance don't do much dungeon diving. Lots of snowflakes and OC donuts though.

>>48483790
Why do you care OP, if they're playing DnD, that already shows they not smart and mature enough to understand (insert shitty obscure indie RPG nobody gives a fuck about here) like you do and aren't even worth your time to talk to.

I actually like 5th edition...

>>48483905
Nice meme. Your fedora will arrive via stork shortly.

>>48480651

>>48482990

It looks like all these little shits are being quite boisterous today. Did a mass ban just expire or something?

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>>48483947
To be fair, 3.5/Pathfinder IS frustratingly awful once you've played something better. Complaining about it on the internet isn't going to get their groups to try something new... but I imagine it makes them feel better.

>>48483967
>To be fair, 3.5/Pathfinder IS frustratingly awful once you've played something better.

But I've played tons and tons of games, and I still don't agree that 3.PF is awful even if I prefer other games.

Some groups like what it offers, and there's noting wrong with that, and these trolls don't really seem to appreciate just how annoying they are.

If anything, your post is just another part of the problem, because it perpetuates a myth that there's anything inherently wrong with liking it, which is what these trolls use to fuel their perpetual butthurt.

>>48483893
>Even actual forgotten realms and dragonlance don't do much dungeon diving

I never really got into Dragonlance but there is a fuckton of what can generally be considered more or less literal "dungeon crawling" in Salvatore's FR novels, as well as high adventure in general. Sellswords Trilogy, for example. A lot of the arcs feature going through caves, forts ,etc. Hunter's Blade Trilogy featured what is effectively FR's Ullanor, where a few main heroes go to confront the orc leader at the center of his war camp, which imo is very D&D.

There is definitely a segment of fantasy fiction which focuses on high adventuring and meshes well in style with D&D so your assertion is somewhat to begin with, unless your criteria is exploring literal dungeons, i.e. underground cells where they chain prisoners in castles.

Implying that FR isn't very D&D is flat out lying when they literally wrote transition novels to match the new magic system / pantheon post-3.5E

>>48483967
> Play 5e
> Start vomiting, when people suggest playing any other edition

>>48483893

And super common healing magic that removes tension.

And high lv adventures being basically superman.

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>>48484005
I can't take anyone seriously who says 3.5pf isn't awful. Between caster-supremacy, the extreme levels of min-maxing and balancing issues creating "builds" that can break the game, feat chains that every character NEEDS to have, HP bloat, magic item bloat, dump stats, and skills not even being a thing you get on certain classes (2+int points per level... really martials?)...

Look... I know it's bad to say someone is have badwrong fun... but 3.5 and Pathfinder literally drag down the quality of the entire hobby when people are introduced to it as their first tabletop game and start to think it's issues are "normal".

>>48483947
>forever gm is looking for suggestions for an alternative system.
>he's wrong and and obviously a troll.
You're a cunt mate. And not the good kind.

>>48484087
>I can't take anyone seriously who says 3.5pf isn't awful.

And, you are a silly troll that has nothing worth saying, even though you've been repeating it ad nauseam.

Why I bothered to reply to you in the first place boggles my mind.

>>48484005
>But I've played tons and tons of games, and I still don't agree that 3.PF is awful even if I prefer other games.

I agree.

I have played 2e, 3e, 3.5, PF, 4e, 5e, and I have also played Shadowrun, Exalted, and Traveller among non-D&D stuff. And yet I find myself going back to 3.5 like a well-worn bathrobe: everyone's wondering how I can wear something so ratty, I find it warm and comfy.

>>48483790
>Why are so many D&D fans acting like if D&D was the standard, basic fantasy every other fantasy rpg came from
Because it wa-
>standard, basic fantasy
oh wait nevermind yeah you're right.

I reckon that it's more that it's big and popular and thus things have been modeled after IT rather than the other way around - this includes RPGs, which in most cases owe some not-insignificant portion of their DNA to it.

It's like how Tolkien is not necessarily representative for myths and legends, yet its dwarves and elves have become the de facto standard. And despite that being probably one of the most popular fantasy franchises out there, his elves and dwarves are hardly the standard either - just look at some of the other franchises that got movies, like Narnia - there's not exactly a lot of overlap in there.

>>48484067
5e is amazing, although I find it really really hard to debate the people who say it's lacking in customization.

Personally, I like that the mechanical bloat of 3.5/pf has been largely cut out and left to actual roleplaying, but people do have a point when they say your characters will stop being very different on-paper after you've played each class 2 or 3 times.

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>>48484117
I'm not just saying the game sucks though, I gave several reasons why it has problems. It's not "trolling" to bring up legitimate issues as a reason for disliking something. Even DnD itself has tried to address many of these issues with releases of it's later versions... just a shame alot of the fof people seem to have the "THEY CHANGED IT, NOW IT SUCKS!" attitude.

>>48484117

Except everything he said is true.

>>48484187
It's a shame 3.5 fans in general aren't interested in criticism. They just dismiss everything as trolling and keep convincing themselves their system is the greatest thing ever. Like North Korea.

D&D is really destroying the hobby.

Fantasy became super popular in recent years. Millions of people started to love it thanks to LotR or GoT.

Then these people hear about rpg games and some decide to try them. But 90% of the time they are introduced to the hobby with D&D, hate it and leave.

Dungeon World is really destroying the hobby.
Fantasy became super popular in recent years. Millions of people started to love it thanks to LotR or GoT.
Then these people hear about rpg games and some decide to try them. But 90% of the time they are introduced to the hobby with Dungeon World, hate it and leave.

>>48484067
O D & D
D
&
D

Embrace the skilless system and actually bounded accuracy, kohai.

>>48484260
Except Dungeon world isn't 90% of people's first experience with the hobby, and would probably not turn 90% of them away.

/tg/ is really destroying the hobby.

Fantasy became super popular in recent years. Millions of people started to love it thanks to LotR or GoT.

Then these people hear about rpg games and some decide to try them. But 90% of the time, after they are introduced to the hobby, they visit /tg/ hate it and leave.

Seriously, you guys are just toxic. Lighten up, learn to leave each to their own.

>>48484260
Lol if you think people who are new to fantasy in general are even going to have Dungeon World on their radar, senpai.

Shit's a niche-ass product in a niche-ass market where Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer 40k and Vampire are the only games that have actual brand recognition outside it.

>>48484260
I like DW and i smirked.

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>>48484300
>TFW when I literally didn't know what Warhammer 40k was until I started visiting /tg/.

>>48484335
>something something normie reee
You're fine anon. There are 7+ billion people in this world, less than 1% of them know or play 40k. Same with most games. It's okay.

>>48484335
Yeah, D&D is the big famous one while Vampire's brand is mostly just running on vintage fumes from the nineties when it was really big.

40k's got some fairly high-profile games out there, though, like Dawn of War and Space Marine. Warhammer proper also has Total Warhammer and some other stuff out.

Of course, the big issue there is finding out that there's 40k RPGs. Which are all called various things that aren't "Warhammer 40,000", like Dark Heresy and Only War, while the big noticeable 40k tabletop thing that you can find in non-gaming stores is, well, the miniatures.

So since Vampire isn't as big as it used to be, and 40k's RPGs aren't as obvious as their wargame, the go-to thing for newcomers is to google around for Dungeons & Dragons. Maybe they talk to a buddy who's already into the whole D&D thing and hear about Pathfinder, but chances are that a new player will end up with something like 5E's beginners box.

And most people who start out with 5E, or 4E, or 3E, probably don't immediately hate it and leave the hobby forever. Remember, Monopoly is one of the best selling board games ever and I can go out and buy a copy of Snakes & Ladders in my local supermarket if I want to. Hell, people will actively defend Monopoly.
People can handle shit rules, they'll just do what most people do and make a bunch of spot houserules and ignore complicated shit and maybe put in some stuff that makes things more "fun".
So Monopoly, basically.
Fuck money on free parking.

>>48483893
>snowflakes
how the fuck is "the fighter dude, the wizard dude, the cleric dude and the rogue dude" snowflakes? Specially since in the vast majority of editions their classes aren't exclusive. Every NPC that fights likely is a fighter. Every caster is likely a wizard or a cleric too. What makes them "snowflakes"? Are we really in the age of /tg/ where if you're not a dirt poor peasant you're a "snowflake donut steel"?

>>48484075
>And high lv adventures being basically superman.
Where did this nonsense even come from anyway.
High level adventurers are nowhere near invincible like superman, unless you're talking about meme shit like pun-pun but that only really applies to D&D 3e anyway, and even then, those builds are pretty much charop fanwank no one ever plays them.

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>>48484729
Have you seen Pathfinder General any time in the last year? The snowflakes refer to all the kitsune, catgirls, magical girls, and other anime bullshit that's invaded the hobby over the years.

At least DnD had the sense to distance itself from that garbage... although unfortunately Pathfinder seems to have embraced it wholeheartedly because it sells expansion books to autists looking to legitimize their magical realms when pitching their snowflakes to GMs.

In before bitching about anime on a weeaboo culture website.

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>>48484267
>mfw OD&D is too simple for my players to enjoy
>and 4e is too complex for my players to wrap their head around

I fucking love both but my players are the terrible combination of
>can't improvise for shit, and thus if there's nothing in their character sheets saying otherwise they will just "I roll to attack" forever
>cannot remember all the rules like feats and paragon paths and thus make combat take 10x longer trying to remember all the shit they can do in 4e

I need a middle ground
something more complex that gives my players mechanical options because they're too dumb to think outside their character sheet and also something that isn't TOO complex that will make them spend forever every turn trying to remember how to use cleave

>>48484729

lv 20 fighter can destroy an army of low lv enemies. And lv 20 casters are gods.

>>48484779
>Pathfinder
not D&D though
my point still stands

I mean I realize pathfinder is totally D&D 3.75 but actual D&D editions don't have that much snowflake bullshit. The worse that it got was 4e with dragonborn and tieflings being core. When people think "average D&D party" they don't think snowflakes, they think "human fighter, halfling thief, elf wizard, human cleric, dwarf fighter".

>arguing with trolls

For fuck's sake.

>>48484823
That's not superman level invincible, there are plenty of threats to those characters that can easily fuck them up. And the "lv 20 casters are gods" meme is again, only relevant in one edition of D&D, and only in char op fantasies because actual games don't really work like that.

Also, I call bullshit on "fighters can decimate armies" and "casters are gods". In the edition where casters are gods, fighters are fucking garbage and cannot, in fact, decimate armies, and in the editions where fighters can decimate armies, casters aren't gods.

>>48484925
STOP ARGUING WITH A TROLL.
STOP BEING A TROLL.

>>48484950
I CANT
I DONT HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE

>>48484729
>"the lizardman fighter dude, the immortal loli wizard dude, the vampire cleric of Palor dude and the chaotic good half-succubus rogue dude" are snowflakes?

Yeah, they are.

>>48485145
What dnd system even has rules for that shit in core?

>>48485145
Hey man, Lizardman fighter dude was just my character from Skyrim, OK?

Damn racist slaver Dunmer.

>>48485145

To be honest I doubt that "immortal loli wizard dude" would be a special snowflake in a high magic setting. If anything they would be pretty common.

>>48485203
Who the fuck cares about core? The only groups that are going to be completely core are the ones where the GM is sick of bullshit or if the group is 100% new players and a new GM.

>>48485204
It's okay I had a Khajiit pirate who was a running armory.

>>48484087
At least you gave actual reasons for it, see? These are all issues worth discussing. Unlike flat-out shitposting.

>>48484235
Fans of GoT are more dangerous to the hobby than D&D.

>>48485254
>Who the fuck cares about core?
People who actually play the game instead of just shitposting on 4chan. The actual average D&D party doesn't use half a dozen different splatbooks. In fact, vast majority of people just make humans in pretty much every fantasy game out there. That remains true even in video games.

>>48484801
>can't improvise for shit, and thus if there's nothing in their character sheets saying otherwise they will just "I roll to attack" forever

DM [to player]: Before rolling, how do you imagine your character attacking?

^This really works. The attack doesn't have to be epic elaborate all the time, "I stab the orc horizontally in a straightforward manner," but it facilitates and encourages improvisation. If you do this consistently, you can take the training wheels off after a few sessions.

>>48485280
How's that?

>>48485348

Core only is the fucking worst in 3.PF though.

>>48485348
TRUE! Not only that, but also the false assumption that "D&D" always means either 5th Ed. or Pathfinder. Some of us REALLY DO play 1st, 2nd, or OD&D.

>>48485384
That is true
but did you notice D&D has 5 editions (if not more?)
How about when people say "D&D be like this" they specify "3.PF be like this?"

>>48485348
For a decade of running/playing 3.5 and four years of PF that has never been true.

>>48485408
>For a decade of running/playing 3.5 and four years of PF that has never been true.

I play since OD&D and that has always been true. It was even true during 4e and humans were really under-powered before essentials.

>>48485354
>DM [to player]: Before rolling, how do you imagine your character attacking?

>my players
>I dunno I just attack
or
>uhhhhh I attack him with my sword

If I didn't remind my players during shadowrun that they can do full automatic bursts they would grab machineguns and use them single shot every single time

>>48485408
That's a gross assumption on your part. My group, plus 3 other DMs I talk to IRL are like, "I don't use OP supplements because it unbalances my campaign." I skip the splatbooks because I want more money for minis. Players like it when other players come in who aren't trying to be more "special" than the rest of the group. So yeah, time to take the blinders off. Not everyone plays like you do.

>>48485358
They will bring their normalfaggotry and bad taste with them.

>>48485407

When someone mentions 'core only' in relation to Dungeons and Dragons I assume 3.PF because people almost never talk about older editions or 4e, and 5e basically doesn't have anything but core and it will probably stay that for the foreseeable future.

>>48485463

D&D is already completely normalfag infested. And you can't have worse taste than hardcore D&D crowd.

Because it is what people hear about first, and then decide to play. The best decision to match the said stories would be to of course use systems tailor fit to them. Instead of trying to play LotR in D&D, just play The One Ring (MERP is old and busted). Instead of trying to play Game of Thrones in D&D, try A Song of Ice and Fire. Even GURPS would be a better decision as it is very customizable, and it does have an official Discworld book if that is more up your alley.

If you however are interested in some crazy shit like Eberron, then of course D&D would be a smart system to look at.

>>48485478
Warhammer 40k

>>48485446
They must be stuck on pure mechanics then, like a video game or something.

If that were me, I'd start docking 25 XP for every non-descriptive button mashing command they give. My god, your players are sucking the life out of what an RPG is supposed to be.

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>>48485463
>unironically complaining about normalfaggotry

>>48485422
Great pal. OD&D was a different game and attracted different people. The vast majority of players today got into D&D through 3.X and it has left a lasting effect on what a 'normal' D&D game and character is. Combine that with the influence of media like anime, Harry Potter, Twilight.

>>48485461
That wasn't an assumption, it was personal experience. The dozen FLGS that I've played in for 10+ years are filled with game like I have described.

And it's because of 3.PF and its impact on the hobby.

>>48485477
>When someone mentions 'core only' in relation to Dungeons and Dragons I assume 3.PF because people almost never talk about older editions

here on /tg/ every single time someone mentions D&D they will mention the various different editions m8.

>>48485486
I honestly have no idea what to do, other than just not playing RPGs anymore since I have zero other group options.

>>48485501
>Great pal. OD&D was a differ
buddy, pal, friend. I said "SINCE". And considering I specifically mentioned 4e, why did you get impression I only played OD&D, I have no idea. Besides, the current D&D is 5e. Pathfinder ain't named D&D.

And the vast majority of people playing pathfinder still plays humans. Maybe you play online too much or with people from 4chan, but that is just how fantasy games work, universally. People will see all sort of options and play boring humans. I'm not even saying this is a good thing.

>>48484831
>The worse that it got was 4e with dragonborn and tieflings being core.
What, not 3.5 with all its half-X templates and weird psuedo-templates and alternative races and mix-and-match multiclassing and so on and so forth?

At least dragonborn in 4E are some kind of cool warrior race dudes with an actually pretty rad history, rather than 3E's unbirthing transformation fetish. At least 4E's tieflings had some culture and shit rather than being the generic-ass special snowflakes 3E set them up to be.

I mean, 3E had fucking Level Adjustment. You want to talk about special snowflakes, talk about the system where you can play as an actual dragon in a party of half-ogre mongrelfolk barbarian/fighters and illumian truenamers and warforged monk/psychic warriors and dragonwrought loredrake kobold sorcerers and human wizards.

An edition that has literally dozens of varieties of elves, and half a dozen mechanically distinct varieties of humans. An edition that literally lets you make a half-angel half-devil half-fairy cat-centaur shota.

Most of that is irrelevant on account of humans being the best race for most cases and level adjustment meaning that any fancy templating is going to be a fucking joke, but god damn there's a lot of silly stuff in that edition. There's way too much freedom in character creation, and the culture around that game is almost hostile to restricting options to fit to a campaign - understandably in some cases, since some commonly-allowed options are fucking broken whilst some commonly-banned ones are fixed, but in some other cases I don't want a fucking Kobold in my game.

>>48485569
I don't give a shit what you have personally played. Doesn't change that OD&D attracted a different kind of person than 3.X did. That's the part you seem oblivious too, probably because you only play with the same small local group in an isolated community.

Most 4e and 5e players started during 3.X jumped to PF after 4e sunk then back to 5e.

Most IRL players I have run for, for 10+ years, almost never play humans or pointy eared humans or shorter humans. They want to play vampires, humanoid animals, half dragons, half demons, half angels. And this nightmarish trend has continued into 5e.

It's why I jumped to GURPS and Savage Worlds. People never ask if they can play anything other than the list I provide them for those games, and I don't have to deal with neckbeards trying to flip my table at the FLGS for not letting them play a half dragon wizard monk in Dragonlance. Even with 5e I still had to deal with enraged autists who were mad I wouldn't let them have their snowflake race that they horribly 'converted' from 3.PF

>>48485666
Calm down sperg, he said that they were in the player's handbook, that was his complaint. Not that they existed period. The most exotic thing you could play from the player's handbook in 3.5 was half-orcs. Sure 3.5 had crazier shit with all splats considered, but none of it was a default option like in 4e.

I don't agree or disagree btw, I'm just clarifying his point.

>>48485203
3E core lets you do most of those no problem, really. Most of them suck, but them's the breaks.
>Lizardfolk are in the monster manual, two racial hit dice and +1LA and not really worth it.
>Immortality is actually really fucking tricky to get in 3E for whatever reason, and I can't remember a core trick off the top of my head, but hundred-year-old lolis are a vampire bite away.
>Vampires need five hit dice before being turned and a ludicrous +8 LA, but alignment change is a thing so becoming a Cleric of Pelor isn't too tricky. Otherwise 3E has worshipping abstract concepts as a core option, so go worship The Burning Hate all you want.
>Half-Fiend is LA+4 and literally has a redemption option written into its fluff - "All too rarely, though, one learns from and takes on the characteristics of its nonfiendish parent, turning from its evil heritage." Rogue is also one of the recommended classes, and you get bat wings. Still not worth it 'cause of level adjustment unless you're starting at fairly high levels, though.

A surprising amount of the silly stuff in 3E is from core, really. There's also some conventional wisdom in the worst-balanced classes being in core (on account of them not fully understanding the game at the time), and there's some measure of truth to it - also, something like half of the most world-breakingly powerful spells in 3E are in core. There's a bunch outside it, but you need to go for shit like Ice Assassin to get near the brokeness of Gate.
Also, Color Spray.

>>48485687
>same small local group in an isolated community.

says the guy that thinks that humans aren't the most common PC race. Like seriously, there have been studies about this shit.

The problem is the lack of elitism in society and everyone hugging because they dont want to hurt each others feelings

and overpopulation

>>48485756
>The most exotic thing you could play from the player's handbook in 3.5 was half-orcs.
From the player's handbook, sure. But that doesn't even have half the core 3.5 races. Most of those are in the Monster Manual, a book that you probably want players to have access to on account of all the summoning spells and animal companions and familiars and polymorphs and alter selfs. Unless you like handling all that shit by yourself as a DM, in which case good on you?

Bet you didn't know that core 3.5 has four dwarf subraces, six subraces of elves, and three each for halflings and gnomes. Also, no entry for "human".

Fuck if I know how many LA+0 races there are in there, though. There's a few, I know - kobolds and goblins, for instance. Maybe I'll make a list or something, I dunno.

>>48486054
You are listing options that require special DM approval, ie. things outside the PH.

You're also generally an idiot, one who does the impressive feat of taking information and being dumber as a result of it.

>>48485844
>study's about the most commonly played race in a niche hobby
I'm sure you have loads of credible sources.

Thanks for confirming I hit a nerve though. Try playing outside your group of old men for once. You'll see the horror show that is modern roleplaying.

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>>48486054
What do you think of Fantasy Craft's Species Feat system? Basically, you can use your level one feat to modify your characters background. That way, there is no need for LA.

>>48484267
Swords & Wizardry Whitebox and other OD&D / B/X D&D retroclones have made me actually enjoy playing D&D again. Feats, skills, and combat abilities just get in the way and are completely unnecessary for a dungeon delving and wilderness exploration game.

>>48486498
I don't really know much about Fantasy Craft, sorry! That system does sound like it could work well in a system that isn't burdened by trap feats, feat taxes and overly long feat chains.

>>48486600
I fucking love OD&D, it's just a shame that a bunch of what makes it so unique just vanishes down a hole as the supplements come out and meld it into the more modern form we know today.

I sincerely think that Thief skills were a mistake, and that modern RPGs would be better off without skill systems. And yes, this includes Basic's rudimentary "roll under attribute" system.

>>48486600

>TFW moved to 4e after hearing about it during a troll thread
>Loved it, group loved it
>tried 5e
>None of us could stand it for more than two months
>Went back to 4e

Nothin' wrong with sticking with what works for your group, fampai.

>>48486751
To me it feels like the Thief was poorly communicated and executed as an archetype. The abilities presented with it should have been explicitly marked as a supernatural second chance to attempt those tasks listed rather than a rudimentary skill system only one class has access to.

>>48486813
>Nothin' wrong with sticking with what works for your group, fampai.
If more people thought like this, there'd be no more edition warring. I'm all for it.

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>>48484801

>>48486943
>no more edition warring.
kek. Not here it wouldn't.

>>48486954
This guy is right, 5e is perfect for people with the brain capacity of a fruit fly.

>>48486989
and the taste of a house fly: dog shit.

>>48486989
Really nice. Really nice.

>>48487001

I suppose it's the privilege of the fleas to complain that the dog smells.

>>48486751
>I sincerely think that Thief skills were a mistake, and that modern RPGs would be better off without skill systems. And yes, this includes Basic's rudimentary "roll under attribute" system.
I agree with you on Thief skills, but I kind of like the roll-under thing on ability scores. How would you resolve attempts at something where both a success and a failure would result in a fun continuation of the game?

>>48487041
Blame the owner for never washing their dog.

>>48483790
Because those two things, games based on D&D and popular fantasy stories, are unrelated.

>>48483919
>shitting on obscure indie games is fadora.
What?
Shouldnt it be the opposite way around?

>>48483845
D&D is weird. On top of dungeons and loot everywhere, everywhere outside a city is filled with insane monsters, dinosaurs live in the jungle, there's always a giant cave underneath you, and cthukhuesque abominations are lurking pretty much everywhere.

>>48483836
This, and D&D has influenced so many contemporary fantasy writers it basically *is* the standard.

Game of Thrones is low level D&D in a pseudo historical setting (the MacGuffins are dragons for fuck's sake). Abercrombie's stuff internalized Caster Supremacy to the point they are implacable forces of nature that make martials feel small in the pants. Mistborn is mid level D&D where everyone who counts has magic and tech is deliberately forces to be anachronistic because D&D.

If you're talking YA fantasy, that's a different genre with different conceits.

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>>48487101
1. Players attention spans are less than an ant's and
2. they don't have the patience to wait 5 minutes for another encounter.

>>48483790
In terms of feel it's actually pretty close to the fantasy stories that were popular when it came out, but they aren't popular anymore.
D&D is best described as an insane mishmash with races stolen from Tolkien, magic stolen from Vance and all kinds of monsters and magic items stolen from everyone. They even stole the name for the githyanki from an old GRRM story.

>>48487095
Nah. A fedorafag is also someone who's desperate to defend mainstream traditional games from hipsters, normies, sjw's. Can't have them devaluing D&D, PF, or 40K now can we?

>>48484288
Now this one i can actually believe.

>>48486600
You know at that point you don't have to play a D&D, right?

The OSR stuff is so bare bones you could replicate it in something like Heroquest 2e, Fate Accelerated, World of Dungeons or fucking RISUS. You're playing Magical Tea Party with a brand name.

Whatever D&D you grew up/came into the hobby with is going to be your favorite, full stop.

>>48487211
>You know at that point you don't have to play a D&D, right?
I play all kinds of systems. Why do I have to close myself off to certain games if I play something else?

>Whatever D&D you grew up/came into the hobby with is going to be your favorite, full stop.
I got into the hobby with 3.5 and it is definitely my least favorite D&D.

>>48487101
So, Diablo, Torchlight, other action-RPGs like them are D&D fantasy?

>>48487276
>>48487211

DnD isn't a hobby. It's a lifestyle.

>>48487321
>DnD isn't a hobby. It's a lifestyle.
And that's part of the problem with D&D/PF players. They take their game too seriously, like MtG and 40k.

>>48487331

don't open that can, it"s trapped

>>48487211
>Whatever D&D you grew up/came into the hobby with is going to be your favorite, full stop.

Nah brah. Even people who grew up with 3.5 are slowly distancing themselves from it.

Also, I started playing in like 2002, and 4e is my fav by far.

>>48487356
But I need worms for fishing.

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Aside from freeform and similiar bullshit, 3.5 was the first rpg I played. I loved idea of d&d even before that due to playing Baldur's Gate. Then I played 3.5, loved it, and I still love it after all those years. With all it's flaws and everything else, it is my favorite system and I doubt anything will ever change it. My only regret is that it's slowly being abandoned. 5e is ok, but it's not the same, it's like a drug replacement therapy. Only 3.5 gives me the right kind of rush.

>>48487053

I'd steal LotFP's skill system if I had to. Roll a d6. On a result of a 1 (maybe 2) you succeed. Rolling under attributes makes attributes too important, and favors high rolls disproportionally.

Interestingly enough, this is exactly how you find secret doors.

>>48487211
>>48487276

I'm going to have to second this.

My first D&D was 3.0. After DMing 3rd edition and its iterations for over a decade, I can't stand it anymore. I find I prefer older editions, especially B/X clones, and the Rules Cyclopedia.

>>48487087
Underrated post

>>48487087
>>48487589
Neither of you have ready any popular fantasy stories ever.

>small group of heroes
>singular goal to save the day
>singular enemy so much more powerful than they are
>quests/adventures/situations until the main character is powerful enough to win

This is how 99% of fantasy stories have gone since before even Tolkien's works existed.

>>48487548
Meanwhile,
I got into the hobby with 2e, and my favorite d&d is pathfinder.
I will pay 2,3,p,4, or 5 if the gm is any good, but of the five, pf>3>4>5>2.
For the same reason i never really got into fc, t20, or rifts.
I value options and consistency over balance and hodgepodge mechanics.

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>>48483857
He's right, you know. Though you should also add in that a huge number of non-D&D RPGs are basically either sold as an alternative to D&D (13th Age), trying to improve D&D to varying degrees of success (Pathfinder), or are a deliberate rejection of D&D (Dungeon World). They are all compared to D&D, and found to be better or worse as the individual interprets them.

D&D is the axis around which the entire market turns.

>>48487211

Nah. Came in on 3.0 and played through 3.5, 4e, and PF and I don't like any of them as well as I like 5e.

>>48487650
Compared to d&d's
>small group of chumps.
>powerful enemy
>half way through the story they get powerful enough that they can survive swimming through lava, control reality, etc.
>at upper levels they can make their own realities and fight most all dragons /demons /angels 1 on 1 with good odds.

D&D is a weird game where regular people become superheroes through training.

Regular fantasy may follow a similar basic narrative, but without the demigodhood.

>>48487742
You also forget: most D&D games never reach completion. They just slowly die.

>>48487742
That's entirely up to the DM handing out experience, though - how quickly he does it and how much he allows. Besides which, the fact that D&D can do low-level GoT-style Sword and Sorcery AND do high-level demigod stuff, and do both to a reasonable degree of competence, is a point in the system's favor.

>>48487695
>deliberate rejection of D&D (Dungeon World)
Isn't that one pretty much just a love-letter to D&D "as they played it" using a separate system? An active rejection of D&D wouldn't keep the themes and aesthetics, I don't think, and DW has you roll to hit using your Strength bonus to deal a random amount of damage to an enemy as you and your party of four or so friends delve dungeons and fight monsters. Also, vancian magic.

Compare this to that 4E retroclone, Strike!, which scrubs away the fantasy dressing entirely and instead just goes for the core mechanics of 4E's tactical combat engine - that's a rejection of D&D's theme, insofar as it becomes a genericish system, but it's also a celebration of the system at the same time by virtue of including it.
Although it also rejects a bunch of other stuff, like big numbers and DCs and variable damage and stuff, to the point that the original name for it was "Sacred BBQ". It's a rejection, but only a partial one - a rejection of D&D's percieved baggage, perhaps?

>>48487769
>low-level GoT-style Sword and Sorcery
>GoT
>Sword & Sorcery
I don't think you know what those terms mean, anon.

Also, D&D is kind of ass for running political campaigns and mundane combat kind of sucks in non-4E editions? It's boring as hell.

>>48487761
Also, they don't have a story arc, or go through a bunch of them with multiple having unsatisfying or anticlimatic resolutions.

Recurring villains are difficult to get with how lethal most editions are.

>>48487807
The point being, however, that every fantasy D&D defines itself in terms of how it relates to D&D. So why would anyone ever think of D&D as anything other than the standard?

There was a similar effect back in the 90s and 2000s with Pepsi. Pepsi commercials used to be about how much better they were than Coke, even going so far as to show Coke in their commercials, albeit so that people could reject it in favor of the "better" Pepsi. Coke commercials, meanwhile, just focused on how great Coke was, without ever mentioning the competition.

Pepsi's marketing executives discovered, to their dismay, that in fact all those ads did was advertise for Coke: most people try to tune out commercials and ads, so all they'd remember from the commercial for the most part is seeing a bright red can or bottle, which, coupled with Coke's commercials all showing the same can/bottle, meant Pepsi was reinforcing the appearance of Coke.

When you define yourself in terms of the opposition, you are basically allowing yourself to be a billboard for that opposition.

>>48487769
>That depends on the GM!
I guess you could play e6/e8.

I have never seen *anyone* play either. The gm, if he's following your suggested story structure at all (i know i don't use that structure with d&d), puts his bad guy near the end of the 20 levels.

Also, as >>48487761 pointed out, a d&d campaign that doesn't just fizzle out before the end of the story is a 1/1000 thing. That's one of the reasons i don't use that story structure.

>>48487858
>Recurring villains are difficult to get with how lethal most editions are.

If you do it wrong...

>I don't think you know what those terms mean, anon.

There's dragons and ice people/ice faeries and zombies in GoT. I really don't care about the definition beyond that; you get my point.

>Also, D&D is kind of ass for running political campaigns

Not in my experience...

>>48487742
Except in many fantasy, the heroes DO reach that level of power too.

Which tells people how little fantasy you actually read.

>>48487937
>puts his bad guy near the end of the 20 levels.

I don't know if that's the suggested story structure anywhere. Certainly it doesn't follow with any of D&D's published campaigns that I'm aware of. Most of them cap out at levels 10-15.

"Curse of Strahd", for example, is intended to start at 3rd and reach 10th level. "Red Hand of Doom" back in 3rd Edition was for characters level 6th-12th. "Night Below: an Underdark Campaign" in AD&D took players from 1st to about 14th level.

>>48487306
Yeah, that's basically it.
D&D does get even weirder when you get to the planes of existence, but apart from that it's just a less edgy Diablo.

>>48487953
>>48487983
>>48488018
You're talking with a troll.

>>48487709
I started fairly recently on 4e, but combat took ages, so we moved to 5e and never regretted it.

>>48487983

Not in the actually popular ones.

>>48487858
>and mundane combat kind of sucks in non-4E editions

When you have shit GM's and all players do is roll the dice to attack.

I had amazing games without even using any system. Just roll d100 at % GM decided.

>>48487983
He said popular fantasy.

Very little fantasy fiction is anything like that. Even in actual d&d fiction, almost all of them (elminster and drizzt being the exceptions) the characters are either low level throughout, or start at like 13 or so.

>>48487211
>Whatever D&D you grew up/came into the hobby with is going to be your favorite, full stop.

But I came into the hobby with 3.5 and I exclusively play 4e now when I play DnD.

>>48488018
I'd consider 15 "near the end".
Typically the pcs are expected to hit 15.

I was talking about homebrew campaigns, but sure let's talk published ones.

I haven't seen too many *campaigns* that run like 1-6. Have you?

>>48487211
>Whatever D&D you grew up/came into the hobby with is going to be your favorite, full stop.
But I've grown beyond D&D and into better systems. Never looking back.

>>48488018
As for that being the suggested story structure, it's the story structure directly suggested by
>>48487742

>>48488335
Sorry, wrong post. I meant suggested by
>>48487650.

>>48488324
Different. Not better, simply different.

>>48484199

It doesn't match my feelings, so it's automatically false.

>>48488400

There are systems objectively better than D&D. Hit die, AC, HP bloat and Vancian magic are all objectively crap.

>>48488400
No, actually better. So many times better. I'm actually able to run games to completion and keep my players focused. They actually spend time making characters that you can relate to and understand and continue to grow them organically throughout the game.

GURPS and Savage Worlds have been a blessing from Christ. Granted, I had to gut Savage Worlds, but it was an easier remodel than any addition of D&D.

>>48488455
>Hit die, AC, HP bloat and Vancian magic are all objectively crap.

You don't understand what objectively means, and you want people to take you seriously?

Ha, how old are you, ya little faggot?

>>48488518

Whatever, keep pretending that shit rules are fine.

>>48488455
>>48488474
>I think my opinion counts!

Cute. You guys like your little games, but they're just pale shadows of the original.

You've got the chinese knockoffs, and you think you've got something to say about the brand name products? Please. If you got any cuter, I'd have to pinch your adorable little stupid cheeks.

>>48488538
Do stop being a little faggot though, ya little faggot.

>hurr, my subjective opinion is OBJECTIVE! YOU HAVE TO RESPECT IT, BECAUSE I CALLED IT OBJECTIVE!

That's exactly why no one actually takes you seriously.

>>48488541

Tell me again, since when is the most popular shit good? Do you love Dance With the Stars, Harry Potter, Avengers and CoD too?

>>48488518
>>48488541
>being this upset at people who don't like your game
And once again D&D players confirm they're a terrible and thin skinned community.

>>48488541
>muh popularity

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

Congrats sheep.

>>48488563
It's not good because it's popular, it's popular because it's good.

You don't want to admit that, but hey, it's not like your minority opinion counts for much anyway...

...oh.... that's why you're so desperate to try and convince people that your subjective opinion is anything but. You hate being reminded that most people disagree with your opinions, and consider you to be annoying faggots.

God, it must suck to be you. Is that why you're so dedicated to shitposting all the time? Frustration? Frustration over how little your little minority opinion matters?

>>48488628
>You hate being reminded that most people disagree with your opinions, and consider you to be annoying faggots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VoscbQA3lM

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>>48488628

Most people are idiots. That's a scientific fact.

And the frustrated one here is you.

>>48488687
Hey, most people share my opinions on games. I'm part of the happy majority who like good games and don't need to play knockoffs that have dumb rules just for the sake of being different.

You're just a sad little, impotent troll, and GOD how that must infuriate you. Bet it eats away at your soul, you adorable little faggot.

>>48488736
Someones mad.

Why are you so mad anon? Did you wife leave you again?

>>48488736
>All that projecting

I'm not even the guy you were responding to, I just thought it was funny that you were doing the exact same thing you were getting incredibly asshurt at him for doing.

>>48488587
Not that anon, but i do like d&d.

Much better than sw. But less good than gurps or shadowrun.

>>48488768
>>48488770
>uh uh, I'm not mad, yuh-yuh-you are!

God, you're adorable.

Do you know what I love? Being part of the greater expanse of players who recognize a good system for what it is, and don't spend their time being asspained about having a minority opinion. Feels so good.

Too bad you're so busy with the whole "can't stop being asspained" business. It must suck so much.

>>48488800
Good for you?

I like how all I do is post that I prefer Savage Worlds and GURPS because they're better than D&D and D&D fans feel this urge to unite and defend their hobby.

Like, why?

>>48488850
>Like, why?

Extremely fragile egos.

I like playing DnD, I'm just not a faggot about it.

But most DnD players are in their teens and early twenties and those people can't help but feel like everything they like is God's gift to man and everything they dislike is Satan.

>>48488831
Need some salt for those wounds?

>>48488850
Actually those would be trolls.

The number of D&D players who actually have played other games is a lot higher than you think, because /tg/ lies.

>>48488831
>Too bad you're so busy with the whole "can't stop being asspained" business. It must suck so much.

>>48488687
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VoscbQA3lM [Embed]

>>48488850
>>48488879


Guys.

It's Virt. He probably drank himself to the "obnoxious 3.5 defender" state of alcoholism.

The break he took from the computer to rest the "obnoxious DW fan" persona coincides.

>>48488879
>>48488890
Most players play more than one system, that's a given. But I never see the same amount of pitchforking for say GURPS or WFRP as I do for any addition of D&D, even 4e.

>>48488879
>But most DnD haters are unemployed and in their early thirties and those people can't help but feel like everything they like is God's gift to man and everything they dislike is Satan.

It's like, they blame the game for them being failures.

>>48488935
Maybe cause those don't suck as much as D&D?

Poor 4e. The only D&D to break the mold in the line of shitty, boring spinoffs to an elegant game from a more civilized age, and it gets hated for it.

Am I doing good, troll senpai?

>>48488959

Yeah this is exactly what I mean.

>>48488921
But virt hated 3.5.
If you're going to try the "boogie-man" route, at least do it intelligently. Hell, calling up his name helps remind people how much of a faggot a 3.5 hater could be.

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>>48488965

You are defending 4e. It's too obvious dude.

4/10 I guess.

>>48488959
Dammit Craig, we know you got a job at Subway!

You don't need to rub it in!

>>48488987
This is a troll thread. What were you expecting, kumbaya?

>>48488959
>tfw when you're 25, make six figures, and live on a 100 acre property in the American North Midwest.
Feels good man.

>>48488965
>Poor 4e. The only D&D to break the mold in the line of shitty, boring spinoffs to an elegant game from a more civilized age, and it gets hated for it.

I don't know, I think 4e did a good job of splitting the community. I have a game that my group can play with that fantasy hero FFT theme we all love, 3eaboos have their BMX biker and Angel Summoner simulator game, and 5doras have their mud-n-grit adventurer game.

Sure, it's hated, but no DnD doesn't have haters, often with good reasons for their hate.

>>48488921

There's a bunch of "obnoxious dw fan" copypasta up right now under his old MO, so yeah, virt crawled back here again after a leave of absence like a drunk back down the neck of a bottle.

>>48488989
>But virt hated 3.5.

virt hates everything. He simply chooses personas that are easy to fish for replies with.

Guy whose only argument is "3.5 is popular so it's obviously good!" is a really fucking obvious troll persona.

>>48489081
That or someone is pretending to be him for laughs.

>>48489144

They're one in the same. virt's not a person, it's a paper sack one picks up a wears. There's no distinction between the original and the imitation; reproducing so simple a formula doesn't so much as create a counterfeit as it does more of the real thing.

>>48484831
Not
>Dwarf Cleric
>Human Fighter

>>48489135
No, It's less "3.5 is popular, so it's good" but "3.5 is popular, so that makes your subjective opinion that of a minority."

It's what these 3.5 haters hate being reminded of. Yes, it's trolling them, but only because they are stupid enough to genuinely believe that their weak opinions are "objective" just because they've repeated them enough to convince each other, even if they haven't convinced anyone else.

It's hardly in the style of virt, who would get as banal as possible, kind of like some of these punks do once you get under their skin about just how subjective their opinions are.

>>48489240
>Yes, it's trolling them, but only because they are stupid enough to genuinely believe that their weak opinions are "objective" just because they've repeated them enough to convince each other

Literally only one person talked about objective opinions and he was talking about DnD in general, he didn't even mention 3.5

You just got triggered and went on an autistic rant ad-populum because your fanny gets flustered whenever anyone doesn't like your game of choice, in the process managing to affirm the people who spam this board with that shitty 'lel try not playing DnD' meme.

You gave them what they wanted, you dipstick.

>>48489240
>"3.5 is popular, so that makes your subjective opinion that of a minority."

Honest question? Why does that matter. Popularity isn't indicative of anything but popularity. The minority or majority of an opinion doesn't make it any more valid or invalid, so if you're not equating popularity to quality, what are you equating it with?

>>48489489
>>48489519
Jesus Christ, do you guys even read the post he is replying to?

>>48489556

I actually didn't and now I feel dumb for replying to Virt.

>>48489489
No child, this is what they believe entitles them to shitpost.

It's not just one guy who honestly believes his opinion is objective. It's the whole "this game is objectively bad" that makes them feel that they are justified in shitposting endlessly about it, like they're saving people from it, when really all they are doing is being obnoxious cunts about a game they don't like because it's too popular for their tastes and they disagree with some of its mechanics.

If they acknowledge their opinion is only subjective, and not only that, but a minority opinion, they really have no cause to shitpost, since all they're doing is hating and trying to stop discussion about something on a board dedicated in part to its discussion.

>>48488850
Dude said d&d players couldnt handle criticism or acknowledge it could be less good than other games.

You gave gurps and sw as examples.

I stated that I AM a d&d player, that's is NOT the best or only game I play, though i disagreed with your claim that sw is better than d&d.

Why aren't you able to deal with posts that contradict the narrative you're pushing? Am I ruining your hugbox circlejerk bs?

>>48490051

The thing with SW is that it can be easily changed in 50 ways to make it the system you currently want.

You just can't do that with D&D.

I'm not a fan of SW, but it's still much better than D&D. 5e is the only edition that is maybe close. Maybe.

>>48490051
I don't know what board you go to where hugboxing happens, except maybe /po/ and even they can get nasty.

SW is better than D&D mostly because I don't have players making assumptions about the game or setting based off of previous versions, clunky rules, and professional settings.

I don't have to deal with health bloat, ridiculously long combat, people feeling entitled to play anything outside of what races they have been provided, min maxing, or power gaming. I could go on.

It's flexible, fun, and fast.

I personally don't play with exploding dice, bennies are only available via edges, and I tie wounds into a characters vigor as opposed to their status as a wild card, but that's just me.

>>48490240
>sw doesnt have any setting assumptions baked in
True.

>health bloat, long combat
Damage does a pretty good job keeping up with hp growth. But yes, eventually a peasant with a gun is no longer a threat.

D&D does only run D&D, and i wouldn't try to use it for said and sorcery, for example, or a historical game, or pulp adventurers.

>player entitlement
I've had shitty players do this in every game system, and I've had players who aren't shitty sortof do this when the real issue is they don't want to play what the gm wants to run and are looking for a character that will pay the game closer to what they actually want to play.

As for why i domt lime sw:
I'm not a fan of how its core mechanic, Combat rules, exploding dice, or bennies work, and i *really* dislike how getting hit without Bennies basically means missing turns, and just how it plays out in general.

I *could* make it into something id actually like playing /running, but there seems to always be a different game much closer to whatever i might want to run, especially once you consider gurps/unisystem as alternatives to sw.

>>48490747
Damage does a decent job of keeping up with health in 5e, but I'm never comfortable with players being gods among mortals. It always dissolves into lolrandum "I've earned the right to pillage and rape and murder people"

And whenever I tried to scale back HP and damage across the board in 3.PF 4e and 5e people lost their minds. So I stopped running anything D&D. Too many assumptions and standards for what a 'proper D&D game' should be.

> i *really* dislike how getting hit without Bennies basically means missing turns

I just changed being shaken from being restricted to free actions to only being able to perform one action per turn, so you either counter attack, move, or something else.

Really glad they removed requiring a raise on your spirit check though. That was just annoying.

>>48490173
>You just can't do that with D&D.

Cool opinion. Too bad it's so far from the truth that it might as well be considered a propaganda-fueled shitpost.

Like, fuck, half the reason you shitpost so much to begin with is to complain about people preferring to use D&D over whatever godless system you think would work better, because they know they can retool it to suit whatever they want. And they do. And it all works out, contrary to your assertion.

I know you're just hoping to perpetuate this myth that "D&D can't, so try this other system please please please", but not only do people do it all the time, they do it well and without falling into the horror stories you conjure up about how a group tried to use D&D to run an adventure outside of a dungeon and their table exploded.

Seriously. Be honest for once, though I'm guessing me telling you that is going to trigger some sort of cringey defense mode.

>>48490985
enjoy mate.

>>48490173

I've managed to run a variety of fantasy game styles with 4e. About the only thing it's bad at running is grim'n'gritty 'you got bit by a rat and died of disease' style games, but I have other systems for that.

You have 10 seconds to name a system better than DnD

You aren't allowed to post meme generalist systems like GURPS or Risus, or games of a different genre like Shadowrun, WoD, or 40k RPGs. Only kitchen sink setting-agnostic fantasy.

Go.

>>48491336
>name a system better than D&D
>you can't name a system other than D&D
I'm sure you're not biased at all.

Anyways, SW, GURPS, Risus, ORE, Burning Wheel, OWoD Dark Ages, Iron Claw, and WFRP are all better than D&D. Fuck your rules.

>>48491336
>40k
>Meme generalist system

What.

Anyway, Fantasycraft.

>>48491491
But those are all terrible.
Hell, you listed Burning Wheel, Iron Claw, and WFRP, which are each terrible in turn (seriously, Iron Claw? The 'it's better than you'd expect from a furry system, but that doesn't make it actually any good' game?). The only passable one I'd say is Burning Wheel, but even then it's nothing to write home about.
You've also got the awful generalists that can't do anything right.

And OWoD DA barely even counts as a system. It's tied to one of the most unapologetically ill-devised systems ever conceived. I'm insulted because you're clearly just randomly picking systems at this point.

Whew lad, I'm glad that you're just posting out of pure spite, because I'd be ashamed of you if you actually held those systems in high regard.

>>48491667
I hold them in higher regard than D&D. If I'd rather run Iron Claw off all things, that should tell you just how terrible D&D is.

Everything associated with D&D in any form is just garbage.

>>48490985
>Cool opinion. Too bad it's so far from the truth that it might as well be considered a propaganda-fueled shitpost.

Tell me how can D&D do Napoleonic campaigns? How do you make black powder firearms work in d20? 5 rounds of reloading then one shoot for d12?

How would you do realistic campaigns with HP bloat and bullshit like heroes surviving a canon hit to the chest by RAW?

>>48491336

D6 Fantasy. Rune Quest.

Shit, even Warhammer 2E is better despite many problems.

>>48491721
And then you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

>>48491904
There's actually gun rules in the DM's guide.
And you'd just keep the levels low if you want to keep it realistic. Cap it at three if need be, one if you're so inclined.

What are you, retarded?

>>48492019
My dozen or so players do. Three weekly games for six years. None of which are D&D or Pathfinder.

It feels great.

>>48492035
>cap levels at 3.
>ignore 85% of the class.
I'll just go run a better system at that point.

>>48492071
I'm glad they finally lifted the ban on roleplaying games in asylums.

It's sad and too bad about not being able to import D&D though, but there's no need for all these sour grapes.

>>48483790

>Butthurt about D&D popularity: the thread

>>48492107
15% of D&D is still 10x larger than most games.
But, in any case, you only asked how it could be done, like you thought it was hard or something.

>>48491491
Burning wheel is okay but id rather pay d&d for genetic fantasy. Gurps i agree with, ore is pretty meh, and just has a gimmick going for it, and your other suggestions are all much worse than any edition of d&d I've ever played, and several spinoffs.

But, in response to >>48491336,
In no particular order:
Pathfinder, t20, dungeons and zombies /buffy/angel/ghosts of albion, evil dead unisystem (any of them), fantasycraft, gurps dungeon fantasy, runequest 6/mythras, openquest, and maybe shadowrun with a smallish number of houserules.

>>48492126
>15% of D&D is 10x larger than most games.
>I've never played anything other than D&D and it's inbred cousins.
Maybe if you actually spent time running/playing games instead of bitching about things not D&D you'd actually be able to form a respectable opinion.

>>48487807
Sacred Cow BBQ, anon. It was made for a fantasy heartbreaker contest which I helped playtest and judge

>>48492112
>all the things you could do in life
>you choose to be mad about other people having badwrongfun
Why anon? Why are you so petty?

>>48492194
Child, you do know that the majority of games run less than 50 pages, right?

>>48488432

>3.PFags are the tumblrinas of tabletop RPG communities.

I guess I should've known when PF introduced Kitsunes as a race.

>>48492210
I've got nothing against crazy people having fun, I just wish they didn't pretend they weren't crazy.

>>48492219
That's not even close to being true for pprpgs.

Maybe for board games and deck building games. But that's apples to oranges.

But please, feel free to stay delusional anon.

Have a good one.

>>48492035
>There's actually gun rules in the DM's guide.

And they are trash.

>And you'd just keep the levels low if you want to keep it realistic.

So throw away 90% of the system? What's the fucking point? Are you completely retarded?

And there are other issues like fucking d20 that has flat 5% chance for every result. AC that's complete autism and makes 0 sense. Weapon tables being designed by people who obviously have no idea about weapons. Idiotic once per day/rest powers out of a board game.

>>48492228
No, those are OSR fags, or possibly the entirety of Something Awful.

3.PF fags are the Libertarian idiots who were on the Ron Paul Revolution: they want the freedom to crush and be crushed under myriad rules.

>>48491904
>D&d for realistic campaigns, such as napoleanic.
E4 without magic. Maybe e3. Slight adjustments to allow skills to max out at 5 or 6 ranks.

For best results, Swap the d20 for 3d6, crit on 16/17/18, both on 3/4/5.

I mean, I wouldn't seriously suggest it, but it *can* do it, fairly easily.

>>48492219

Even fucking SW that's ultra rules light has 160 pages.

And now quality of the system depends on the number of pages?

>>48483790
I'm not quite sure what the question is. You're wondering why it's considered the "standard, basic fantasy every other fantasy rpg came from"? Because it is. For fantasy roleplaying games, it is the old standby. That's RPGs, not fantasy novels, or movies. This applies to other tabletop RPGs, and to fantasy video games like The Legend of Zelda, The Elder Scrolls, Diablo, Torchlight, and Final Fantasy, all of which in some way or another, took inspiration from the D&D model. Yes, folklore, and pulp fantasy and epic fantasy existed before D&D left its mark, but in the hobby we are currently talking about, it's been there since the beginning, it's still the most popular, and it's what tons of other systems try to emulate "but better", and draw fans away from.

>>48492258
Let me guess, you only play mainstream titles, and you think you're some kind of expert because you don't play D&D anymore?

>>48492281
And armor as DR is an primal rule you can use

>>48492281

You still have HP bloat and MMO powers. Nothing realistic about that.

>>48492238
The amount of ionized salt you produce makes the black sea seem sugary.

>>48492317
>Level 3 or 4
>hp bloat.
Are you srs? Most games let you take a couple hits before you die.

>mmo powers
You could disallow the magic classes and options.

Point is, its not ideal for the campaign, but it can be done, pretty easily to boot, contrary to what you initially suggested.

Even have everyone start at l3, and then just have them advance in skills up to a mac of 6 ranks and gain mundane feats.