Warhammer 40k General

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Dreadnoughts should be cheaper

In all of the shitposting about fandexes in the last thread, did anyone ever bother to raise a single actionable criticism of SpaceOdin's fandex?

>>48468648

Nah, buff them. Either better armor, HP and durability, or faster and better platforms for deploying, especially w/r/t assaulting.

>>48468655

I've never read it before. Where can I find it?

Working on a nurgle list from last thread. Do you think a unit of 5 Plague Drones will be able to last long enough to signal in reliable deep striking?

>>48468648

I'd actually make a lot of things in this game more expensive and more restricted (make Formations themselves cost point ffs!) There needs to be more 0-1 of X, Y, Z units. I don't mind shit being powerful but spam is cancerous in all forms.

>>48468707
From the link he gave last thread:
Bit ly/Orks7ePDF
>>48468716
Depends on the rest of the threats on the board, the point value, and the opposing army.

>>48468730
>(make Formations themselves cost point ffs!)
so you pay points to get the free rhinos?
where is the logic in that?

>>48468716
Yes, just put the drone with the icon in the back. They're T5 with 3 wounds.

>>48468753

You pay for the benefit of the formation. AoS is doing it with theirs and it works out very well.

>hurr durr gladius

Obviously broken shit is obvious and would get the nerf hammer brought down on it as well.

>>48468730
Unbound makes all spam possible.
Actually Unbound isn't that bad if it's not being used for cheese. I've had problems with my unbound games where it's actually hinged on me not having objective secured and my opponent having objective secured. Losing the command benefits is a pretty good trade off for fielding whatever you want.

>>48468730
Spam will only get pushed harder by GW. Convincing customers to buy multiples of the same kit is something GW will never, ever do away with. Certainly not in favor of quality gameplay.

>>48468733
>>48468770

Here's the list.

+++ The Tallyband Can (1846pts) +++

++ Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) (Chaos CD Daemonic Incursion) (985pts) ++

+ Core (650pts) +

Tallyband (650pts)
··Herald of Nurgle [Greater Locus of Fecundity, Psyker Level 2]
··Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
··Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
··Nurglings [3x Nurglings]
··Plaguebearers of Nurgle [Instrument of Chaos, 10x Plaguebearers, Upgrade one Plaguebearer to Plagueridden]
··10x Plaguebearers of Nurgle [Instrument of Chaos
··10x Plaguebearers of Nurgle [Instrument of Chaos
··10x Plaguebearers of Nurgle

+ Command (300pts) +
Daemon Lord (300pts) [Kairos Fateweaver]

+ Auxiliary (35pts) +
Daemon Flock (35pts)
··Chaos Furies [5x Furies]

++ Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (861pts) ++

+ HQ (230pts) +
Daemonic Heralds (230pts)
··Herald of Nurgle [D6 Exalted Daemonic Reward, Psyker Level 1] (The exalted is the Grimoire of True Names)
··Herald of Tzeentch [Psyker Level 3, The Oracular Dais]

+ Elites (208pts) +
4x Beast of Nurgle (208pts)

+ Troops (198pts) +
11x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99pts)
11x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99pts)

+ Fast Attack (225pts) +
5xPlague Drones of Nurgle, Icon of Chaos,


The list generates 14 warp charges, and I'll generally roll on Malefic/Biomancy. For 1850 games.

>>48468815

Yeah but they could push it toward shitty kits that don't sell or ones that suck rules-wise and hem in shit like Riptides.

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Made another list without Seraphins, one less Exorcist and a Psyker Inquistor with a squad of crusaders, psyker and death cult in a Landraider crusader. Basically because my Rhino chassis count ends at 7. (Picture not related, but I'd be glad to have more)

+++ Traditional Sisters of Battle (1345pts) +

++ Adepta Sororitas: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1345pts) ++

+ HQ (135pts) +

Saint Celestine (135pts)

+ Troops (290pts) +

Battle Sister Squad (145pts) [2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Flamer]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]
··Sister Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer]

Battle Sister Squad (145pts) [2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Flamer]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]
··Sister Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer]

+ Fast Attack (530pts) +

Dominion Squad (180pts) [4x Dominion with Meltagun]
··Dominion Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]

Dominion Squad (180pts) [4x Dominion with Meltagun]
··Dominion Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]

Seraphim Squad (170pts) [8x Seraphim, Seraphim with Two Hand Flamers, Seraphim with Two Hand Flamers]

+ Heavy Support (390pts) +

Exorcist (130pts) [Storm Bolter]

Exorcist (130pts) [Storm Bolter]

Exorcist (130pts) [Storm Bolter]

>>48468782
It's like how formations in apocalypse 40k USED to work.
You paid for the formation and the models. Then you got the special rules. AoS didn't start that idea.

>>48468857
8/10 would fuck

>>48468833
What exactly are you deep striking and why?

>>48468815

Formations are just about the strongest anti-spam gw has ever done, and they are pusing them hard right now.

>>48468870

Its something they should go back to. Along with reviewing or straight up tossing out a lot of existent formations from matched/tournament play.

>>48468919
Eh, they're kinda hit or miss on that front. All the Daemon formations are "take a large number of the same unit" and quite a lot of the other detachments include multiple auxiliary choices that just spam the same thing.

>>48468870
I liked when formations where in apocalypse only and people play for fun.

WAAC is fine in a video game, where you can just quit the match and start another one in seconds. But in wargames is just being a dick.
Like both of you had to assemble, paint, transport and agree to meet at a certain point and a certain hour for a single match.

It boggles my mind that some people translate winning to winning at all cost. Unless you are playing in a tournament (even then kind of silly, but to each his own) there is no reason to cheese build.

>>48468910
Most of the plaguebearers in the tallyband. They seem slow, and plague drones are fast.

So I've set it up like this: Oracular Dais guarantees one successful reserve roll per turn. Instrument of Chaos on the drones guarantees this without scatter, and Icon of Chaos on the Drones lets me turn this one roll into two deep strikes.

I infiltrate the nurglings at the start, move the plague drones in to position, and then deepstrike what is hopefully most of my army much closer than they could be at that point if they had started the game.

It seemed like a fun strategy, but this will be my first ever 40k army, so what the heck do i know?

>>48468954
Yeah, everyone knows that prior to formations, everyone only fielded highly varied lists the cleaved the fluff whenever possible.

Why are the anti-formation people so delusional?

What army do you play, and what is the most important thing you've discovered about how it handles tactically?

>>48468981

'muh WAAC waaaah'

Its human nature to desire to win, to defeat or dominate the opposition, to exert your control, to improve on what you posses and know that it is 'the best'.

>>48468857
Fighting non formation, wraith spam Necrons.
The other list:

+++ Sisters & Inquistion (1498pts) +++

++ Inquisition: Codex (2013) (Inq Inquisitorial Detachment) (453pts) ++

+ HQ (63pts) +

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (63pts) [Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour, Psyker (Mastery Level 1)]

+ Elites (390pts) +

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (390pts) [3x Crusader, 5x Death Cult Assassin, Psyker]
··Land Raider Crusader [Dozer Blade, Psybolt Ammunition]

++ Adepta Sororitas: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1045pts) ++

+ HQ (135pts) +

Saint Celestine (135pts)

+ Troops (290pts) +

Battle Sister Squad (145pts) [2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Flamer]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]
··Sister Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer]

Battle Sister Squad (145pts) [2x Battle Sister, Battle Sister with Flamer, Battle Sister with Flamer]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]
··Sister Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer]

+ Fast Attack (360pts) +

Dominion Squad (180pts) [4x Dominion with Meltagun]
··Dominion Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]

Dominion Squad (180pts) [4x Dominion with Meltagun]
··Dominion Superior [Bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]
··Immolator [Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Multi-Melta]

+ Heavy Support (260pts) +

Exorcist (130pts) [Storm Bolter]

Exorcist (130pts) [Storm Bolter]

>>48468975
>this one roll
Reread the wording on the Oracular Dais.

Even with your erroneous reading of the Dais/Musician interaction, that's a lot of moving parts in order to deep strike some Plague Bearers that you could just summon for free. The list is rather light on units that will actually do work. I'd drop two of the Plaguebearer units down to Nurglings, scrap the excess Herald, and add a GUO. Trade the Dais for Paradox. Or give the one Herald some more kit and have him use the Plague Drones to slingshot himself into CC.

>>48468803
Unbound is fine if you're trying to use it to make a perfectly fluffy army. Like say I want to have a Deredeo being followed around by a Techmarine and his own personal honour guard. Deredeo's the warlord. He's then followed around by a command squad of 3 contemptors, with a vanguard of 3 more dreadnoughts. Troops were 4 tactical squads, and 3 scout squads with a land speeder. Obviously this isn't bound, because that's 7 elite slots, all following around one heavy support guy whose the warlord.

But on another side of the coin, there's a Tau player I went up against last week who went with like 12 Hazard Suits, 2 Rvarnas, and 1 normal riptide. The rest of his army was something like 1500 points worth of crisis suits. He asked me what a casual tau list looked like, and balked at my response of "6 Fire Warrior Squads all in Devilfish with Sensor Spines and whatever that upgrade is that grants +1 cover saves, supported by the remainder of your points in mixed battlesuits with a maximum of one riptide".

>>48468919
That's not entirely accurate.

Riptide Wing consists of 1 model.
Daemon formations all consist of a single, or two models.
Librarius Conclave.

There are so many more. Formations encourage spam.

>>48468981
Yeah, no one ever fielded 2 lash princes and nothing but plaguemarines, who the hell spread this silly noise haha.

While I admit some formations, especially the "much free shit" ones are fucking cheese, I do feel some are quite fluffy (the "prophecy" one in crimson slaughter as an example) and should be encouraged... But anyways that shite's pointless, WAACfags will be WAACfags.

>>48468981

They just don't like change. Saying "I don't like change" isn't a very credible argument, so they have to make something up. Since they are just making an excuse and not actually referring to reality when making their arguments, sometimes things come out sounding confused.

>>48468919
Until you get the formations that are:
3× the same unit (Riptide Wing for example) where you take a good unit and you get even MORE bonuses for taking them.

Those formations are the worst...

>As a GK, I'm worried that GW will rehash their shitty GK apocalypse formation of 3-5 Dreadknights when they get around to giving GKs formations, effectively encouraging the spam.

>>48468981
>>48469001
Mostly salty to free upgrades just for putting some random unites.

To be fair winning is not the problem, waac is the problem, because practically I can't bring my entire collections to LGS just to tailor every my army to fight against the broken cheese of the week.

Might be a USA thing, but I remember back in third people played a lot of fluffy armies, and avoided cheesing.

>>48468997
Chaos Marines here !
i learned that you have much more fun playing accordingly to your playstyle than trying to go by the standard WAACshit
(tried Cabal, tried deathstars, etc, but finally, my best games are with a fluffy list)
Also learned that the most you play an unit, the better it becomes for you !

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>>48469019
Iron Hands chapter tactics will let you stick dreadnoughts in Elites and Heavy support. You could manipulate that to make you Bound.

>12 hazard suits, 3 riptides, fuckload of suits
I would play the fuck out of that list, that sounds like fun. How big of a points game was that?

>>48468997

>What army do you play,

Tyranids, Blood Angels

>What is the most important thing you've discovered about how it handles tactically?

TYRANIDS
They can dominate psychic phases easily, not just with Tyrants and Zoanthropes bu with MSU Genestealers, and you have a good chance of having Catalyst on two Tyrants. They're surprisingly durable because of this. Also the MSU nature of units like said Genestealers, while not a tournament winning tactic, gives players fits unless they're say, Tau.

I would also say spore mine and etc. tournament lists like #Lictorshame are incredibly difficult and unforgiving to play if your placement and movement isn't perfect, and far from easy to master. And even then I don't think they're that good outside of ITC dominated metas.

Also people lose their shit at 3 strong units of barebone Carnifexes and its funny.

BLOOD ANGELS
Turn one deep strike assaulting is overrated. Baal Strike Force is your friend if its a pure Blood Angels army. Lightning claw terminators put out a lot of work, in fact they tend to over-kill in my experience. Death Company is overrated, I always find myself wanting my mini-deathstar of Sanguinary Guard because shit just doesn't seem to die properly when Death Company assault anything but MEQ troops or Guard Blob equivalents.

Also Fast Rhinos OP take shitloads of these and enjoy cock blocking people's deathstars with your moving terrain pieces while you win on objectives. Drop pods are actually not that great for Blood Angels unless its a Furioso or meltagun assault squad. Even then I prefer the Furioso.

>>48468981
Anti-formation people arent delusional. Formations have hurt balance and fun far more than theyve accomplished anything positive.

You couldnt achieve anything remotely as broken with CAD. Formation bonuses are cancer.

They were implemented because GW realized they could guaranteed sales of whatever kits they chose to, simply by offering a competitive advantage. WAAC fags jumped in headfirst, and anyone that wants to play in a public/pick-up setting was forced to follow suit.

Now we have retards like yourself that have fully succumbed to a very simple marketing ploy - defending the merits of a sales tactic that undermines the quality of the game.

>>48469016
I reread both wordings. I think I'm right.

Oracular Dais:
The Oracular Dais is a Disc of Tzeentch. At the start of each of your turns, you can choose one friendly unit with the Chaos Daemons Faction that is in Reserve to automatically pass its Reserve Roll (there is no need to roll).

When a unit with an Instrument of Chaos in Deep Strike reserve successfully passes its Reserve Roll, you can also choose another unit. This must be a unit that:
> is entirely composed of models with the Daemon special rule
> is still in Deep Strike reserve
> has yet to make a reserve roll this turn
If you do so, the chosen unit automatically arrives from reserve (no roll is made).

So if you use Oracular Dais to guarantee a pass for a unit with an instrument of chaos, you get to deep strike another unit as well without having to roll for it.

I would really like to fit a Great Unclean one in there though.

Summoning is an option, it just doesn't seem mobile enough.

>>48469019
Fist of Medusa Strike Force can take Dreadnoughts as an auxiliary choice. That list can quite easily be made battleforged by swapping one of the Tactical Squads for a Devastator Squads and adding a Chaplain.

>>48469026

Far far less so than the old Foc system. You think any powergamer anywhere would have run a list of 'one of everything in the codex' without the war convo?

Power players are just a fact of life, an I'm perfectly fine with them getting steared towards mixed, vaugely realistic looking lists. Getting a boot up my ass from a functional army instead of 6 [Power choices] and 4 minimum size squads of the cheapest infantry avalible is a huge step forward.

>>48469092
It was 3000 or so points. I went unbound because I mostly wanted to get around the whole honour guard force org stuff. I wanted Valentine to have his own personal 5-man honour guard, and not have to take a captain/chapter master in order to justify them. In my eyes, Valentine's already a captain, so he totally deserves his own honour guard.

Anyway, I play Raptors. Not exactly the best of tactics for dreadnoughts, but it's really good for scout squads. Having Rending on bolters means sniper rifles aren't necessary at all, so I can just have bolter scouts with cloaks infiltrate to harass suits. It didn't stop me from getting tabled, but the threat of stripping wounds off his fancy riptides made him weary of where he put them.

It was also the first game where I ever brought the Imperial Space Marine. He came insanely close to gibbing commander farsight through good positioning.

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>>48469150
>formations are a huge step forward in balance from CAD's

wew motherfucking lad

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>>48469106
>You couldnt achieve anything remotely as broken with CAD.

>>48469168

The word balance does not appear in that post.

>>48469106
>hey were implemented because GW realized they could guaranteed sales of whatever kits they chose to, simply by offering a competitive advantage. WAAC fags jumped in headfirst, and anyone that wants to play in a public/pick-up setting was forced to follow suit.
See, this is delusional. GW already writes the rules. If they want to drive sales of a unit by manipulating the rules, they don't have to make formations. They can just make the unit more powerful.

>You couldnt achieve anything remotely as broken with CAD
I'm pretty sure Eldar tournament lists usually run CAD's with MSU Scatbikes, Far Seers, and Wraithknights.

Balance was already fucked. Formations just provide bonuses for fluffy configurations. We actually see people fielding Assault Devastator Squads in tournament lists. Yes, formations need improved on, but the idea is sound.

>>48469148
Where do I find the rules for that formation ? are they in the Angel of Death supplement ?

>>48469016
>give the one Herald some more kit and have him use the Plague Drones to slingshot himself into CC.

How do you get a slow and purposeful infantry model to keep up with jet pack Cavalry?

>>48469044
>Since they are just making an excuse and not actually referring to reality when making their arguments, sometimes things come out sounding confused.
Hell, we can see it in action right here in this thread:
>>48469168

>>48469218
Correct.
>>48469225
Congo line of death. He won't get to fight in the first round, but he should pile in for the second. You can also deep strike the whole assembly.

>>48469208
>See, this is delusional. GW already writes the rules. If they want to drive sales of a unit by manipulating the rules, they don't have to make formations. They can just make the unit more powerful.

So, instead of just cramming units X, Y, and Z into a formation that would guarantee the sales of said units - the wiser move would be to buff all of the units in all of the formations that contain units they want to sell. Which requires updating statlines, and therefore codexes. Instead of just offering a formation bonus.

I get it, you like formations and will defend them no matter what. But you need to stop reassuring yourself of how right you are, and examine the situation objectively. But honestly, I think you are just so shockingly stupid, that you arent capable of doing that. Im disappointed in myself for replying to you.

>>48468753
>so you pay points to get the free rhinos?
That you don't get free rhinos, you entitled little shit.

>>48469208
>I'm pretty sure Eldar tournament lists usually run CAD's with MSU Scatbikes, Far Seers, and Wraithknights.

Confirmed for not playing before 7th edition, and just straight up talking out of your ass.

>>48469306
The majority of formations released have come out alongside reprints of codexes or supplements. If formations were intended to drive sales, why haven't their been kick-ass formations buffing unpopular units or armies? Why have so many of the good formations buffed units that players of the faction would already own?

>>48469337

This is pretty common as an allied detachment;

Eldar CAD

Warlock

Windriders: 3x Scatter Lasers

Windriders: 3x Scatter Lasers

Windriders: 3x Scatter Lasers

Windriders: 3x Scatter Lasers

Windriders: 1x Scatter Laser

Wraithknight

>>48469337
I'm 100% certain the Eldar tournament lists prior to 7th edition used the Force Organization chart. I'm pretty sure that even now the only real variable is how many Warp Spiders they include. ObSec on Eldar Jetbikes is pretty fucking good.

>>48469239
I think his snarky reply was due to the absurdity of the claim 'formations have improved balance over the CAD'.

If you believe that, perhaps it's you who is confused?

>>48469317
RHINOS?

RHIIIIINOS

OUR ENEMIES HIDE IN METAL BOXES, THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS

GW SHOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES

>>48469337
are they not talking about the balance of Formations vs CADs, which is only a thing post 7th? why does anything before 7th edition matter in that discussion?

also, eldar totally take CADs over their formations/decurion.
unless your trying to spam 5 wraithknights at 1850pts

>>48469380
That claim was literally never made in the reply chain. It is definitely you who is confused.

>>48469361
Because pushing every army at once is counterproductive. You hold some down, while buffing others up. The idea is to nudge everyone toward purchasing a 'good' army. If everyones army was strong at once, there would be far less people buying into a new army. The impetus for change isnt there if we're all equal.

>>48469367
Truly, the venerable Force Organization Chart will redeem us from the evils of spam unleashed by the decurions.

>>48469421
Is that why Orks have been shit for a decade and Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines have all been strong armies for years?

>>48469367
>>48469379

You couldnt take specials on every bike before 7th. And iirc they werent troops. Back then you took as many Wave Serpents, and deducated transport Wave Serpents as possible. Seer councils, and a bright lance.

>>48469454
They were troops then. And he's talking about how things are now, in 7th, with Formations and shit, I'm pretty sure.

>>48469454
So, what you're saying, is that even prior to formations, people still just spammed the best units?
>>48469298
I don't want D to be common, but I understand that it's a necessary evil when the game is actively proliferating SH/GMC level shit. Super Heavies at 2400 aren't the problem. It's Wraithknights and Stormsurges at 1500 that can eat the concentrated fire of an entire army and come out fine.

>>48469438
Believe whatever you like anon.

AdMech player here. A friend has asked to see the most cheesy thing I can bring, so I'm putting the War Convocation online. Is it better to make the Warlord the leader of my Vanguard squad as usual (For more rerolls to hit all the time on a squad vomiting out dice) or the Dominus (Thematic, gets a reroll, more durable), assuming I'm going against a mixed Chaos list? Also, to emphasize again, I wasn't going to do this, but he literally asked for it.

>>48469490
>>48469438
Eldar have always been a strong army (except for a brief period in 5th), but orks and marines have been average or bad for most of their existance, each with brief periods of being top tier.

>>48469490
There is no rhyme or reason towards 40k balance beyond designers playing favorites. If GW was really trying to push people to buy new armies, Eldar wouldn't be strong every time they got a new codex. Space Marines wouldn't be the strongest, because they're super popular regardless. We wouldn't see Codexes moving from strong book to strong book repeatedly. We'd see paradigm shifts where they swap top and bottom codexes.

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A reminder.

>>48469513
>asked to bring most cheesy war convo against chaos
for what purpose

>>48469539
>reminder that this guy definitely did not use proper sampling techniques and that the validity of his data is garbage
But, hey, he made some controversial claims and a spiffy image, so he must be legit.

>>48469489
At the end of the day, formations have introduced the most unbalanced version of the game ever. You cant take 6 or 9 Riptides in a CAD. You cant ignore Gets Hot! in a CAD. You cant assault out of deepstrike in a CAD. You dont get hundreds of points of free units in a CAD. You cant take a deathstar of Librarians in a CAD. You cant shoot vehicles' rear armor from anywhere on the table with a CAD. You cant buff the BS of every unit in your formation in a CAD. You cant respawn dead units for free in a CAD....

>>48469549
You do realise that Chaos is a top tier army right now?

>>48469549
He had heard about it and thinks it can't be that bad. Yeah, I don't get it either. The man loves trying to eke out every bit of power he can from his favourite armies, so he might just view it as a challenge to be overcome? And if he can take down the mountain of bullshit that is a War Convo, even with my admittedly bad self playing it, it'd be a hell of a feather in his cap.

>>48469162
>Imperial Space Marine
that guy is a champ. Last game I had he killed a Sorcerer and a Deamon Prince.

>>48469573
Chaos Daemons are. He plays a mix of renegades, CSM, and Bloodbound. He's bought some pure Daemons, but he doesn't like to play things until they're painted - I suspect that will change, in the upcoming game.

>>48469438
Tau went from eternally garbage to top of the food chain with the introduction of the Riptide, and my how the suits have flowed since then.

If you think formations and bonuses werent added for the sole purpose of driving sales, you are exceptionally stupid.

>>48469573
>chaos is top tier army
your joking right?

unless "mixed chaos" means "lest possible amount of chaos marines + other chaos" then yeah sure maybe

>>48469558

Sample size alone should have tipped you off, but then someone will always complain about the derrived statistics regardless of how thorough it was, in my experience.

I posted it mostly as a joke. I play Tyranids and Chaos Space Marines.

>>48469581
Do not take the bait, CSM anons.

>>48469569
At the end of the day, you and your ilk have made indefensible claim after indefensible claim, always ready to shift the goalposts to a new fallback position.

40k has always had atrocious balance. It's silly to point at formations and say they're too blame, when so many formations are garbage or mediocre.

>You cant take 6 or 9 Riptides in a CAD
Yes, yes you can.
>You cant ignore Gets Hot! in a CAD.
That's not even remotely close to the biggest advantage of the WarConvo, and it's not really a big deal anyways.
>You cant assault out of deepstrike in a CAD
You've been able to in the past, and it wasn't even good. It's the guaranteed Turn 1/2 Relentless Grav/Melta that makes the Skyhammer so good.
>You dont get hundreds of points of free units in a CAD.
Says the man that has never played a CAD of Pink Horrors and Tzeentch Heralds.
>You cant take a deathstar of Librarians in a CAD.
Sure, but you can still make a sick-ass superfriends deathstar with good psychic support.

>>48469581
Which is a pretty big problem, he's easily worth 50 points in the hands of a good player, and he's free. I never take him in casual games, but the guy I used him against identified by name as a 'taudar' player, so I instantly thought he was a waacfag.

Simply because the ISM is free, he can kill literally anything with his S5AP2-ID gun and it'll be awesome. If he kills a 55 point crisis suit, he's earned back his points. A tactical marine with a plasma gun? He's earned back his points. A riptide with all of the bells and whistles? He's earned back his points.

r8 my necrons

+++ Necrons (1850pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1850pts) ++

+ HQ (280pts) +

Cryptek (140pts) [Chronometron (25pts), Mindshackle Scarabs (10pts), Phase Shifter (25pts), Phylactery (15pts), Staff of Light]

Cryptek (140pts) [Chronometron (25pts), Mindshackle Scarabs (10pts), Phase Shifter (25pts), Phylactery (15pts), Staff of Light]

+ Troops (520pts) +

Warriors (260pts) [20x Necron Warrior (260pts)]

Warriors (260pts) [20x Necron Warrior (260pts)]

+ Fast Attack (420pts) +

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel [FW] (210pts) [Sepulchral Scarabs (15pts)]

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel [FW] (210pts) [Sepulchral Scarabs (15pts)]

+ Heavy Support (630pts) +

Sentry Pylon [FW] (210pts)
··Sentry Pylon (210pts) [Focussed Death Ray (25pts), Sepulchral Scarabs (15pts), Teleportation Matrix (35pts)]

Sentry Pylon [FW] (210pts)
··Sentry Pylon (210pts) [Focussed Death Ray (25pts), Sepulchral Scarabs (15pts), Teleportation Matrix (35pts)]

Sentry Pylon [FW] (210pts)
··Sentry Pylon (210pts) [Focussed Death Ray (25pts), Sepulchral Scarabs (15pts), Teleportation Matrix (35pts)]

>>48469513

the cohort mechanicus is probably cheesier, strictly speaking.

Anyway, your vanguard warlord still gets a re-roll on his trait if you roll on the chart in the skitarii codex, which you probably should.

>>48469573
Only a few specific builds of Daemons are. When you add even a token CSM detachment, you are no longer competitive.

>>48469647

>Sure, but you can still make a sick-ass superfriends deathstar with good psychic support.

LoW, two HQ, then (multiple) allied detachment I'm guessing?

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>>48469647
>formations are good for the game hurrdurrr Im a full blown retard competitive internet arguer hurrrdurrr Im too stupid to consider any opinion but my own REEEEEEEEE

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>>48469654
I take him always, but I make sure to point out where he is and that I have him, and I ask the opponent if he's a major problem (he never is).
He can kill anything sure but if he's firing at one wound models he's just a tactical marine with a different plasma gun.
>tfw disintegration guns become wargear next codex

>>48469698

Well, I'm convinced.

>>48469647

Can't you still do a Wolfstar with CAD Space Wolves? Two CADs of Space Wolves, Wolf Guard, 2x Rune Priest, bunch of Techmarines, dogs dogs and dogs. Rhino grey hunters and Wulfen.

>>48469625
>Tau went from eternally garbage
See, delusional. Fish of Fury was a thing.
>If you think formations and bonuses werent added for the sole purpose of driving sales
Everything is added to drive sales. GW is a corporation. Formations are not purely a sales gimmick. They, generally, force a wider array of units to be used, and are generally mediocre. Wasn't the Necron Decurion the first? Necrons were a pretty good army prior to that codex. Christ, late fifth-early sixth was horrible with all those Croissants.

>>48469664
>the cohort mechanicus is probably cheesier, strictly speaking.
Yeah, but it's a hell of a lot harder to fit into 2000 points.

What's the best way to outfit my devastators in a skyhammer annihilation force ?

>>48469666
This is elementally untrue. Tetrad/Skyhost/WFH/Murderhost/Circus/Screamerstar/Tallyband and a bevy of other builds are all very viable.

>>48469712
>they had this one strategy for part of one edition so they weren't a bad book for most of their existance until 6th edition

>>48468730
I don't see GW doing this soon. Didn't they just release tank hunter bundles last month that included things like 5 Soulgrinders?

>>48469755
grav cannons
always grav gannons

>>48469647
Yes, 40k has always had atrocious balance, but that doesn't mean formations haven't made it worse.

Theres something about Games Workshop writing our lists for us, and giving us (in some cases) huge buffs for using their lists - that feels an awful lot like clever sales tactics.

>>48469675
Assuming current codexes, it'd be a core of either Ravenwing Command squad or Thunderwolf Cavalry, with supporting heroes drawn from allied contingents from from other Space Marine books. Guardblob star might also be viable.

Deathstars predate formations. Hell, Deathstars really had their heydey in fifth and sixth, with Nob Bikers, Paladins, Pink/Screamerstar, and Thunderwolf Cavalry.
>>48469698
Sick retort, sempai.

>>48469780
Full grav' cannons ? I plan on taking some Mechanicum forces as allies so I'll allready have some grav' weapons there.

>>48469712
You're a moron, never post again por favor.

>>48469755
2 Multi-meltas, 2 Grav-cannons. 10-man and combat squad your devastators. You can deal with every threat in the game like this.

Also, Assault squads should have a Grav-pistol and a Power Fist on a vet sarge. You can use them to put some serious hurt on MCs

>>48469762
Maybe you shouldn't have lied about them being "eternally garbage." Doesn't it get tiring moving this posts around?
>>48469784
Games Workshop has literally always written the lists for us. They decide what units are 0-1, 1+, Troop or Elite or Troop with a certain HQ. We currently have greater freedom in what we put into out lists than at any point since 3rd edition hit.

>>48469803
Toss some heavy bolters in for cool

>>48469803
If you expect lots of Super Heavy vehicles, Multi-meltas are an acceptable substitute. Otherwise, full Grav.

>>48469806
>incapable of actually making a coherent, viable argument
>I'll just call him a moron, that'll teach him

>>48469866
I'll do one of each then. Thanks for the tip

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>>48469837
>Games Workshop has literally always written the lists for us. They decide what units are 0-1, 1+, Troop or Elite or Troop with a certain HQ. We currently have greater freedom in what we put into out lists than at any point since 3rd edition hit

>>48469837
>garbage tau
not the anon who originally made the statement, but dismissing it on its literal merits doesn't mean much.
So lets rephrase it for him:
"Tau went from a book that was bad for most of its lifetime to top of the food chain with the introduction of the Riptide, and my how the suits have flowed since then.

is that better? are we done nitpicking?

>>48469837
>We currently have greater freedom in what we put into out lists than at any point since 3rd edition hit.
because we can take the same FOC we've always had.
Plus a fixed set of units that we can't change in any way!

while technically true, it doesn't really mean much

>>48469935
But they were never that bad. It was mediocre, then it was top dog, then it was mediocre, then it was top dog again. At this point, Tau have probably been a good codex more than they've been a bad codex.

>>48469951
>Plus a fixed set of units that we can't change in any way!
But the vast majority of formations are either small and modular and intended to be put in alongside other formations/detachments or have inbuilt options as to what you put into them.

>>48469784
>>48469647

>40k has always had atrocious balance
ITT, people who didn't play before 5th edition.

>>48469967
Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
3rd edition codex: Tau, introduced, bad
4th edition - 6th edition codex: Tau Empires, bad until the edition of Fish of Fury (did that even last an entire edition?)
6th edition codex and on: top tier, introduce riptides

is that not what the guy was saying? they were bad for their entire life until they got riptides, then they got top tier and GW continued to produce large battlesuit models because of it?
the existance of fish of fury for (part of?) an edition doesn't really change that

>>48469574
>the mountain of bullshit that is a War Convo

GW already did that. No more drop pods for war convocation. Seriously people, its a middle of the road army with tricks. Tricks that won it games....when it first launched. Has not won a major tournament since 5 months after skitarii and cult mechanicus launched. That was BEFORE losing taxi pods.

>>48469967
the original argument is that eldar marines and tau have been top tier their entire life.
This is demonstrably untrue for Tau, who were in fact *bad* for most of their life (or at the very least a large part of it)

>>48470034
its a knee-jerk reaction to a potential 700 points of free wargear.

People fail to consider that a large portion of those points is spent on useless shit that people would never take unless it was free.

>>48470061
>the original argument is that eldar marines and tau have been top tier their entire life.
Literally never claimed. See, delusional. Read the fucking posts.

>>48470061
Marines were not a top tier codex. They were middleground at best after 1st edition and have now risen to power during 6th and now 7th.

What do y'all think of my Daemons+Renegade Knights list?
+++ Daemons+Renegade Knights (1850pts) +++

++ Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) (Chaos CD Daemonic Incursion) (1370pts) ++

+ Core (685pts) +

Tallyband (685pts)
····Herald of Nurgle (210pts) [D6 Greater Daemonic Reward (20pts), Greater Locus of Fecundity (25pts), Palanquin of Nurgle (40pts), Psyker Level 2 (50pts), The Doomsday Bell (30pts)]
····Nurglings (45pts) [3x Nurglings (45pts)]
····Nurglings (45pts) [3x Nurglings (45pts)]
····Nurglings (45pts) [3x Nurglings (45pts)]
····Nurglings (45pts) [3x Nurglings (45pts)]
····Nurglings (45pts) [3x Nurglings (45pts)]
····Plaguebearers of Nurgle (125pts) [Icon of Chaos (10pts), 10x Plaguebearers (90pts)]
········Upgrade one Plaguebearer to Plagueridden (25pts) [D6 Greater Daemonic Reward (20pts)]
····Plaguebearers of Nurgle (125pts) [Icon of Chaos (10pts), 10x Plaguebearers (90pts)]
········Upgrade one Plaguebearer to Plagueridden (25pts) [D6 Greater Daemonic Reward (20pts)]

+ Command (650pts) +

Daemon Lord (300pts)
····Kairos Fateweaver (300pts) [Warlord]

Daemon Lord (350pts) [Be'lakor, The Dark Master (350pts)]

+ Auxiliary (35pts) +

Daemon Flock (35pts)
····Chaos Furies (35pts) [5x Furies (30pts)]

++ Chaos Renegade Knights (Chaos RK Forsworn Knight Detachment) (480pts) ++

+ Lord of War (480pts) +

Renegade Knight (480pts) [Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Flamer (50pts), Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Flamer (60pts), Meltagun (5pts), Stormspear Rocket Pod (40pts)]

>>48470077
Wow.

This general has kicked off with an unusually high concentration of stupid.

>>48470012
3rd edition Tau, were mediocre to good.
4th edition Tau Empire, mediocre to good, then rather broken with fish of fury.

Tau require proper target priority till 4th. Didn't play against Tau during 5th since pretty much I stopped playing due to local gaming group disbanded. (Third world wonders, religious community pushed us away from public spaces, burning rule books, cards, models. Lucky for us our lawyers and more money than them drove them out, but the damage was done, just last year the gaming community is gaining some of their previous glories. )

>>48470103
Just stop replying to the guy. He's obviously new, very opinionated, and keeps calling anyone who doesn't share his incorrect views 'delusional'.

This thread sure is a shitshow

>>48470154
If you have recursive hiding, just hide the first post about dreadnaughts and most, if not all, of the shitposts will be gone.

>>48470154
welcome to 40k general.

>>48468648

I'd rather them be cheaper or have higher AV on all facings.

>>48470081
>top tier for years
shit, your right. My bad.

>>48470077
I wouldn't qualify Arc rifles and Plasma calivers as "useless shit" Anon, especially since the latest don't overheat.

>>48470098
I'm not saying war convo isn't super fucking dumb, but I'm pretty sure >>48470034 is right and that war convo hasn't won any tournaments recently. Meaning its not top of the tiers

>>48470103
>(Third world wonders, religious community pushed us away from public spaces, burning rule books, cards, models. Lucky for us our lawyers and more money than them drove them out, but the damage was done, just last year the gaming community is gaining some of their previous glories. )

Wait, what? We need more details than that anon.

>>48470281
Neither would I. Nor did I say they were?

>>48470281
I think he was going more along the lines of there are "tax" units that one wouldn't normally bring... except that the War Conv requires them.

So instead of seeing the potential 700 pts of free shit it's really 700pts of free shit and say 300-400pts of tax.

>Before the Gladius when was the last time people brought 6 Tactical squads? 6e and early 7e was (in general) about taking min size of Scouts as tax.

Personally, I'd rather GW makes units viable on their own instead of tax for free units / upgrades.

>>48470128
No, see, you are delusional. The guy you just replied to is arguing against the claim that Tau have always been bad. He's literally arguing against your position.
>>48470085
Marines were pretty good in fifth edition too. Razorwire was the Battle Company before the Battle Company.
>>48470277
Yeah, you were entirely wrong and spent a bunch of time lying to try to argue against a strawman.

>>48469168
More like NaCl

I'm looking for a PDF of the arena for the Dark Eldar pit fighting game "Arena of Blood" that appeared in WD 229. Anybody knows where I could find it?

I was reading the Knights Repentant posts on 1d4. Pretty neat stuff.

Quick question: would 30k armor and weapons be better, worse or equal to 40k equivalents, giving the bad time the Imperium has had in the intervening 10,0000 years

>>48469106
Formations have achieved the fielding of SM companies and have made bad units worth taking, because of a bonus they unlock for other units, KDK is an example of this.

Meanwhile the most powerful codex doesn't use its formations because its base units can be spammed in CADs. When troops and HQ backed by one or two LoW taken in a CAD are the problem then you can't say formations fucked the game harder. If anything they increase balance by offering a counter to a purely Eldar meta.

>>48470426
I jumped in when someone (you?) said
>>Tau went from eternally garbage
>See, delusional. Fish of Fury was a thing.

All I did was start the argument that bringing up fish of fury didn't necessarily invalidate the argument you were replying to.

Regardless of anything - I think we can all agree that a lot of people buy the most powerful armies.
Weather or not GW does that on purpose we can't know

Are there any good bundles or deals for getting Rhinos?

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Jesus, posing forge world resin models is a bitch. How do you guys pull it off?

Blandly posed a few minutes ago pic related.

>>48470535
Cool story. Doesn't change how hilariously wrong you were in whatever one of those posts I quoted in >>48470426

Probably the retard that thought the guy was agreeing with him when he was doing the opposite.

>>48470612
All of those silly giganto dreadnoughts would look 100% better without the mandatory marine helmet.

>>48470612
dry fit first and build from the right foot up. It's still pretty hard sometimes, especially with the ball hips

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>>48470612
I've never had an issue

But Deredos are guns on legs, no idea how you make a turret dynamic

>>48470678

The helmet looks great, go back to sucking cocks you fag.

>>48470339
Why would anyone ever take Assault Marines and Devastators in the same list? Their goals are completely opposite of eachother and fluffy lists would be one in a million.

I think the anon who said that he would rather get fucked by an OP fluffy army than a min/maxed OP army. The OP is more than likely here to stay, the question is just how people build their OP lists.

>>48470769
>Why would anyone ever take Assault Marines and Devastators in the same list?
A list doesn't have to all do the same thing.
Why wouldn't you have ranged support elements for your melee elements?

>>48470515
Worse, most of the time. If they found but then lost something inbetween 30k and 40k then it'll be worse. If they found something between 30k and 40k then the "newer" shit will be better.

The thing to remember is that all the really good stuff was made in 10-20k.

>>48470601
You can make your own with plasticard or buy them at 20-25% off from select retailers.

>>48470825

I asked about bundles, not retailer discounts or scratch building.

>>48469489
>It's Wraithknights and Stormsurges at 1500 that can eat the concentrated fire of an entire army and come out fine.
And as I have stated previously, if this is a problem, then DON'T. PLAY. SUPERHEAVIES. AT. LOW. POINT. LEVELS.

If you are making homebrews anyway, then you aren't playing in a competetive scene with rules made by someone else. You have a choice. Don't play faggots bringing superheavies in a 1500 point game.

Seriously, you have two options:
1. Say "No thank you, this game would suck if my current list had to play against a superheavy at this low point level.

Or

2. Sure, but if you are bringing a superheavy, would you mind using this elaborate fandex I spent a lot of time on? Sure, take an hour to look it over, and see if it seems reasonable to you."

The second option is fucking stupid.

>>48470727
Fuck off, the sarcophagus plate on the standard dreadnought is far better than this shitty design meme. I had a bad feeling when the venerable dreadnought came out during the Medusa campaign and had that shitty tiny beakie helmet. The helmet is fine, not on a fucking war machine.

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>>48470900
>DONT PLAY SUPERHEAVIES AT LOW POINT VALUES!!!!1!!
>Both things listed are Gargantuan creatures

Get fuked knight fags.

How's my initial framework for my Eldar list?

1k
Farseer, stock
Maugan Ra, Warlord
8x Dire Avengers with Exarch (TL weapon) in Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Cannon and a Shuriken Cannon with the 5+ invul, two of this squad
5x Dark Reapers with Starshot and Exarch

>>48470912

>not realisms enough in muh 40gay, le everything is memes!!1!

lol retard

>>48470986
Okay. Not a lot of Anti-tank firepower

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>>48470315
Back in the glory days of 3rd and 4th edition.

We had different local stores, one inside an old mall, parking and rather decent public transport (third world decent public transport connection can make business thrive or die.)
That one eventually die due to internal struggles of the owners.

Then we had one under some old living building, small shop, but we could place the table for gaming outside in the public common area of the building. Yes we play cards, board games and wargames out in the cold during winter, the early dark with flashlights or construction lights when someone brought them for gaming.
Rain? Rain? We just strap umbrellas on top of the tables and kept playing, we got soaking wet but the tables where dry.
Summer, parasols and lots of water. We had to be careful about our metal models, they tend to turn a bit mushy if left under the sun.

Eventually the store close, the owner never understood how to run a business (as in keep in touch with sellers and do proper taxes)

During 4th we figure out local communities (our cities have sub division, so we can have like 10 different municipalities inside the same city) so we made proposals and got funds to buy tables, boxes, rulebooks, games for at least 3 different communities. Basically the government was paying us to play with toy soldiers.

Then the religious evangelicals went ape shit. Started pushing our proposals out and taking control of the public spaces. This was political dickery an annoyance but we could still work, basically rotating each weekend between the different municipalities of the city.

The assholes some how broke in and oh boy the book burning, cards, models, scenery, everything burn. Some of us got proper mad and started crowbarring the religious nuts trying to rescue our stuff. The police intervene and well legal actions started, with the usual "No you!, No you!, You double waacfag!" after years of legal, political struggle we as a community won.

The word "Meme" has been so bastardized on this board. Stop calling things you don't like memes.

>>48471050
The Reapers won't be enough? That's a lot of strength 8.

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>>48471121
When the entire situation calm down, the damage was already done. The different player bases were split, municipalities did not want us.

Recently after many years a bunch of small stores are popping up, the old school players the ones that play no matter what cold, rain, heat wind, carry tables across 4 blocks from someone that kept gaming supplies in a nearby locker so we could play.

The old school are bringing on their own loses gaming materials for different board games, cards and wargames for the new people.

It will be hard to have the government pay for our games like we did before, but now we have 3 working gaming stores with parking, decent public busses and subway connections.

So we endure. We remember. We still keep playing.

>>48471162
I thought reapers were strength 5, I see what starshot does now.
Seems like a good list.

>>48469755
>What's the best way to outfit my devastators in a skyhammer annihilation force ?
In a sparkling pink colour scheme, so everyone knows you are a faggot.

What's the difference between khorne daemonkin, daemons, chaos space marines?

>>48468322
> bonus to assault results would make auto-wins against single models

Huh, forgot MCs aren't Fearless. Dreadnoughts don't take morale tests, but I could add in a caveat that Mob Rule doesn't work against MCs, or works differently. Or, just specify Infantry & Characters.

"Mob Rule: If a unit of non-Gretchin infantry outnumbers an enemy unit at the end of any Fight phase in either models or wounds, the Ork unit counts as having dealt 2 additional wounds for the purposes of resolving the assault. This result may never cause a Monstrous Creature to Fall Back."

Prototype rule still seems...granular & complex, but still doesn't lock anyone into meticulously counting every dude on the field in a CC clusterfuck.

Still open to any alternative methods.

>>48469884
There is no point trying to make an argument, when the one you are arguing with is a massive idiot, who has no idea what is doing.

>>48470912
>design meme
How is it a meme?

Can I replace a dreadnought in a formation with a Deredeo instead ?

For example, in the "honoured ancients" formation, I can take 1 dreadnought of my choice between vanilla, ironclad, venerable and contemptor. Can I take a Deredeo instead ?

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>>48468633

Okay so after countless googling we can never find a legit answer.

So lore wise if a chapters Apothecary ran across another chapters wounded Marine could he help the fallen marine?

>>48471316
One was made to sell the new Bloodthirster model, one is a horrible coded, and the other is a good codex everyone forgets about.

>>48471384
>I can choose from one of XY or Z
>can I take Q instead

Holy fucking shit

>>48471400
Depends if it's a Marine Malevolent. If so, the apothecary would just walk on by.

>>48469806
>this cock is too deep in my mouth for me to make an argument
Stop posting and get the cock out of your mouth

>>48471440
No like for shits and giggles lets say its a Imperial Fist walking by a pain stricken wounded Ultramarine

>>48471400
I'm sure he could try to heal, BB apothecaries can give each other FNP you know, but I don't think he'd try to take the gene-seed, he'd probably just notify the other chapter of their fallen bro.

>>48471436
Well, A Deredeo I a contemptor pattern dreadnought and the formation specifies I can feild a contemptor...

>>48471400
It's their job to heal and recover geneseed. I'm sure chapter doesn't matter.

>>48471316
Daemons is a strong army with answers to every situation and very strong psykers plagued by a fuckload of rng elements

CSM is a smelly turd someone forgot to flush

KDK is an attempt to make CSM less smelly with varied results

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>>48471462
>"Magic Pain Glove should I help this injured son of Ultramar?
>Uraggggggggh
>"Sorry, but the Glove has spoken."

>>48471554
KDK is actually pretty good.

>>48471462
He makes a quip about the pain glove being worse, then sarcastically checks the codex astartes to see if it's okay to help the ultramarine.

>>48471316
CSM focus mostly on actual chaos space marines, their representative characters, and various warpsmith/corrupted machines

KDK lifts a couple of khorne variant CSM units (still have to pay for the marks/alignments though lol) and combines them with khorne daemons with a few formations and new relics.

Daemons are a highly specialized and varied group of highly competitive units that represent the actual warp minions of the chaos gods.

Who else think Codex CSM should die and be replaced with varieties of Daemonkin?

>>48471620
Everything Chaos should be one codex. Everything Space Marine should be one codex. Every army should have exactly one set of rules, found in their codex.

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>>48471400
Probably depends on the chapter.

>>48471620
>Word Bearers daemonkin
Yeppers.

>Iron Warrior daemonkin
I guess, more about daemon-engines than summoning.

>Night Lord daemonkin
>Alpha Legion daemonkin
>Astral Claws daemonkin
Hmmmmm.

Why haven't we had a good Chaos Space Marine codex since 3.5? It's as if GW doesn't understand the faction.

>>48471620
Codex Chaos when

>>48471620
Should just focus on the primary warbands for each god and remove generic CSM as a unit, balance the codex around actually taking chaos-enhanced space marines as the crux of your army.

Otherwise just scrap CSM and make everything a *** daemonkin variant.

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Just read Hellsreach, kick ass book. Main character is a whiny bitch for 90% of it though.

Has some awesome scenes of titan battles and interiors to titans, as well as princeps.

8/10 needs more chaplain/princeps fan fiction

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For a chaos daemons army what should I use to add some dakka? I really just need some range.

>>48471567
My favorite answer.

>>48471876
soulgrinders, khorne cannons, tzeentch chariots.
those are your best (only) options

>>48471876
Forgehost/Gorethunder battery/Psychic shit

Other than that maybe use some CSM/renegade artillery/walker/tanks/etc

>>48471876
>>48471899
This but you can also use some Tzeentch dakka.
If you make your daemon prince a level 1 psyker, roll on Tzeentch and buy a herald the endless grimour he gains all the Tzeentch spells, including the assault 1 strength D shot.

It's incredibly expensive but having a strength D shooting attack on a flying daemon prince is worth it.

My Rhinos didn't arrive so i contacted GW and they're sending me new ones free of charge via fast delivery.

This company ain't that bad

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>>48471891
fixed

>>48471951
then take fateweaver as well (incursion or multiple detachments) and you can have two!

I want Salamanders codex

>>48471891

You say that like the dino bots aren't fucking cool.

>>48472008
Games workshop has surprisingly amazing customer service

>>48471951
There are several problems with that. The endless grimoire is 40 points and only allows the warlord access to all powers if they only roll on change. So not only is it expensive, it only works if your WL is a ML1 tzeentch psyker because chaos psychic focus is outdated but GW can never be arsed to update their rules in a cogent way when it comes to chaos. If you're taking a level 1 daemon prince, not only are you being inefficient in gaining WC, but he can only cast one power a turn and can't take paradox as a relic.

If you're using change for the D gun, just hope you roll it normally or take fateweaver.

>>48472008

That's one of the things they always hAve been really good about.

>>48472031
No you don't. GW would just make lizard cavalry that function like bikes and a dinosaur that functions like a land raider redeemer.

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As an Imperial Guard player how do I deal with the Tau bringing this? Plasma vets/ Executioner spam?

>>48472079
tank shock

>>48472079
Hades Breaching Drill Teams, with Plasma

>>48472079
Do you come from a land down under?

>>48472079
Wait for it to anchor itself, then tank shock it.

>>48472027
>>48472062
I forgot fateweaver got all the powers from change, including the new ones in the suppliment.

But, he CAN take paradox and thus guarantee he casts it each turn. The grimoire doesn't require your warlord to take the relic to gain it's benefits so you can have a herald holding the grimoire for him and the prince with paradox throwing 5 dice at it each turn.

>>48471400
In Angel Exterminatus there is an Iron Warriors Apothecary trying to tend the wounded of the Chaos-corrupted Emperor's Children, but they won't let him due to the pleasure of pain. He then takes the progenoid gland of a fallen EC marine before Fabius arrives and... well...

>>48472131
You know a model's OP when the only way you can think of to destroy it is to have his owner let you do so.

>>48472178
paradox as a relic is restricted to only Lords of Change and Heralds of Tzeentch

It's a dumb restriction and a lot of otherwise cool relics also get strangely limited because of similar usage problems, but paradox is still great, just mysteriously absent from DP armories.

What do you think of Onagers and what would be the best way to kit them out ?

The Neutron Laser seems the best weapon against non-flyers but are they worth it ?

>>48472012
Perfect.

>>48472178
>The grimoire doesn't require your warlord to take the relic to gain it's benefits
That seems... Like an oversight

>>48471332
Every argument that you've made has been shot down or was in response to something that was literally never said. Get fucked, you delusional sodomite.

>>48472079
Vendettas, though they likely wont kill it in time.

A Macharius Vulcan might, with Divination backing it up.

>>48471895
Why are imperal fishes no have fell no pane?

>>48472257
the grimoire has always been able to target any unit within 24", it's fairly balanced considering whoever is carrying it has to give up 30 points on their gift limit.

>>48471573
KDK as mono-Khorne daemons with the obligatory Possessed and some Bikers is pretty good. The CSM units are still dogshit.
>>48471620
Sure. Can't be any worse than what we have now.

Chaos Space Marines need more Chaos and less "muh atheist legions/warbands that don't actually want anything to do with Chaos but insist on taking space in the book ruining it for everyone."

If you want non-Chaos Alpha Legion or Night Lords, just play loyalists. If you want non-Chaos renegades, just play loyalists. Codex: Chaos Space Marines should be for Space Marines corrupted by Chaos.

>>48472291
As I forget the stormlord exists.

>>48472303
The other grimoire, the Tzeentch one.

"If your warlord generates all his powers from the lore of Tzeentch then he knows all it's powers."

>>48472306
You say that but GW says they're doing that. Shame that they have to show love to all of the Khorne fags and not just the WEfags. Wait you mean the fanon marines that serve the non-canon Chaos Gods Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch? Don't make me laugh.

>>48472231
Pretty worth it, though the stock weapon is more versatile imo.

>>48472303
Different grimoire
ffs GW, get new names. "Book" is a fine word

>>48472012
>>48471891

3.5 wasn't overpowered. It was top tier yes but it was not "tier 0" broken shit. People just say that either to shut down CSM players complaining or because they have PTSD from IW leafblower lists.

>>48472257
The wording is "if your warlord generates all its powers..."
not "if the bearer"

its strange, but its clear, and such a drastic departure from the usual function of wargear that there's no way its an oversight

>>48470900
Sick false dichotomy.

It's pretty funny that you're trying to claim the anti-homebrew high ground while simultaneously espousing a much more far-reaching house-rule than a single fandex.

>>48472396
Who was OP back in 2e?

>>48472420
Always assume eldar

>>48472336
>>48472385

Oh that one, yeah it's weird as fuck but it seems entirely intentional strange enough. Just a 40 point relic that you can pop down and if your WL is ml1 he gets all change powers. I guess it's not bad for lower point games and it allows for synergy with paradox, but tzeentch himself couldn't figure out how the fuck GW goes about writing rules for chaos.

Which edition had the best art?

>>48472346
>You say that but GW says they're doing that
What exactly are you trying to say here?

>>48472218
If the enemy doesn't anchor it, they waste half its shooting potential, making it less of a threat. Still a threat, but less so.

>>48472420
I don't know, I started with 3rd

>>48472433
I'd imagine that GW will FAQ the "can only generate half the powers from the discipline" clause away. It doesn't make sense anymore since it's no longer a D3 table. Any reasonable person would be okay with that houserule even without an FAQ.

How do I run Azrael and a lot of land speeders in the same list without being a pushover.

>>48472443
Curse of the Wulfen.

>>48472493
>Any reasonable person
thats your problem. GW isn't reasonable. I fully expect them to FAQ-keep the "half your powers" clause cause the new disciplines don't explicitly remove it

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>>48472452
Tired at the moment, Anon. But I will aruge that you can't do a fedora Warband of say the Death Guard. They're far too gone to wear a fedora.
>>48472518
That's wrong.

>>48472493
It'd be nice but until then RAW is as RAW stands and for the scenarios that matters in, it makes the grimoire a hyper niche pick.

Frankly I'd hope the FAQ a bunch of the relics and let them be taken in more scenarios. Why can't epidemia be taken on a nurgle prince? What's the downside of deathdealer on a khorne prince? Is paradox on a tzeentch prince really that devastating?

>>48472535
>Tired at the moment, Anon. But I will aruge that you can't do a fedora Warband of say the Death Guard.
That makes things even less clear.
>>48472527
Eh, they've been pretty good with the FAQ's and fixing things that are clear RaI/RaW mismatches, and keeping the "only up to half" clause is pretty bizarre.

>>48472420
>>48472426
In 3rd it was a mix of Rhino rush with blood angels. Eldar general dickery with their wave serpents and falcons.
Chaos double lash and Iron warriors leaf blower.

To be fair it was hard to fight against, but you still had a chance. At least it still felt like fighting an army

>>48472079
Psy Shriek?

>>48472564
>Frankly I'd hope the FAQ a bunch of the relics and let them be taken in more scenarios. Why can't epidemia be taken on a nurgle prince? What's the downside of deathdealer on a khorne prince? Is paradox on a tzeentch prince really that devastating?
See, this is the kinda stupid shit that won't get FAQ's and shouldn't. They deliberately put restrictions on the relics. There's no reason to expect them to randomly change their mind and decide to remove the restrictions.

>>48472589
With your astropath?

>>48472610
They deliberately write /every rule/, by that logic, why should they change anything?

What use is keeping restrictions that effectively erase the option from the game?

>>48472079
Imperial Knights, lots of Psykers casting Psychic Shriek, lots of Russ tanks with Beasthunter Shells.

Plasma is a poor choice because

>>48472396
Sure it wasn't broken.

Unless you played Iron Warriors.

Daemons of Nurgle count as having defensive grenades.

Does this give them a shooting attack?

>>48472677
Sometimes their rules have unintended consequences, are miswritten, or they leave something out. That's not the case with the restrictions on who can take what relics.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Warband_Creation_Tables
Rolled up a warband and I'm a little confused here.
>Death Guard
>Neutral
>Slaanesh
>Gods above all
>For Chaos
>body horror
>dreadnought
>killed an Imperial hero
>feral world
>desert
>bloody rain
>preferred fighting style: drop pod-fu
>typical strength
>rogue inquisitor
>Necrons
Now let me point everything confusing out.
>Death Guard
>Slaanesh
>Neutral
>Gods above all
>For Chaos
>Neutral: Warband sees Chaos as a tool

>>48472726
Yes. A 8" range S:1 Blast, Blind attack. Huh. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use them.

>>48472008
I once bought like 3 boxes of models (An Ogre Batallion, a Slaughtermaster and a Stonehorn), and after 3 weeks, they hadn't arrived yet. I contacted them, asked what was up, and they said it should have arrived, so they sent me a new one.

3 days later, the package appears, everything in it. Pretty fast, considering I don't live in England, but it was cool, I figured they had sent it express or something.

...until 3 days later, a dublicate package appears on my doorstep.

So I contact GW, asks them what to do with this (In retrospect, a bad move, but whatever), and was told to just keep them as an excuse for the long delivery time.

This company is just A+++ in regards to customer service. Especially compared to literally any other similar service in my country.

I would easily take GW over a shitty 10% discount.

>>48472726
Nope, they don't actually have defensive grenades they just count as having them.

>>48472830
Something on 1d4chan is a contradictory, unusable mess? Color me surprised.

>>48472677
>What use is keeping restrictions that effectively erase the option from the game?
The rule was made for a specific scenario, not for general play.

They aren't removing an option, they are making a new option specifically for a set scenario.

>>48472704
>Implying SW Rhino Rush w/ scout spam wasn't better
>Implying Eldars didn't dominate with their crazy mobility

You didn't play in third/early fourth edition and it's showing.

>>48472838
>>48472841
If they do have them, is there any reason to not use them?

Reducing people to WS/BS skill 1 seems good.

>>48472869
I guess I can say the DGs are trying to use Slaanesh as a boost, but are still Nurglites.

>>48472841
Core Rules, Defensive Grenades (p180)
>When a unit armed with defensive grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can...
>Models charging a unit that includes any models equipped with defensive grenades...
Codex: Chaos Daemons (p26)
>Daemons of Nurgle are treated as having defensive grenades

All three clauses use a different word for the state of possessing the grenades. If we assume that "having" the grenades does something, there's no reason to think it would only grant one of the effects.

>>48472841
>Daemons of nurgle count has having defensive grenades does this let them stop enemies from getting +1 attack on the charge?
>Nope, they don't actually have defensive grenades they just count as having them

this is what you sound like. Defensive grenades are defensive grenades. you can't pick and chose which aspects of them you get to use

>>48472884
this. It's not great, but the nurgle demon players use them basically every charge.
It's nice bonus if they work, and you have nothing else to shoot with.

>>48472935
well, they could, if they worded it that way, which they didn't.

"Treated as having defensive grenades during the assault phase".
It's not worded that way though.

>>48472933
They're not armed with grenades but they count as being equipped with them.

>>48472935
>you can't pick and chose which aspects of them you get to use
Yes I can?

>>48472991
No, they "have" them. There is no reason to assume that means "equipped" and not "armed."

>>48472991
>>48472935
>>48472979
is there any source of rules other than the BRB that clarifies this? Someone we could ask who speaks for GW, and who will respond in a timely manner?

>>48472991
and your justification where being considered equip with something means you can't use it during a specific phase that isn't mentioned? Or only during a specific phase, even though phases aren't mentioned?

>>48473024
Can you even fire defensive grenades if you don't have a ranged weapon? The rule for defensive grenades says that rather than making another ranged attack you may blah blah.

>>48473024
We could ask for an FAQ on it, I don't think they've done a chaos daemons FAQ yet.

But them some people discount the FAQ because it's not finalized yet so I guess there isn't any real way to get clarification on their shitty rules.

>>48473044
So, in other words, if my Captain exchanges his pistol for a power weapon and keeps his chainsword, he can no longer throw grenades. This is the argument being made here.

>>48469535
actually no codex would so bottom that the recommendation is, better do not choose this army at all. Which is common for some

>>48473029
>>48473015
Because they're not equipped with defense grenades, they do not have defensive grenades in their wargear.

Other units and special rules treat them as having defensives grenades as part of the "daemon of nurgle" special rule, that's it.

So how useful is an Aegis Defense Line for blob guard?

>>48473081
If you go by RAW he's actually correct, you can't throw a grenade if you don't have another shooting attack to exchange for it.

>>48473103
You're drunk, stop posting.

>>48473024
>>48473015
>>48472991
>>48472979
>>48472958
>>48472935
>>48472933
Did this generation went retarded?

For all intent and purposes the bloody daemon has bloody fucking defensive grenades.

Are words too complex for you or are you looking for a way to cheese?

>>48473061
>But them some people discount the FAQ because it's not finalized yet
if they answer the rule in the preliminary FAQ, it will be in the final one.
Maybe

>>48473104
so being expressly written in the wargear section is required to use something in the shooting phase?

Who wants first on showing this as stupid?

>>48473134
>Are words too complex for you or are you looking for a way to cheese?
Hi, welcome to 40k rules discussions. There is only one answer

>>48473104
Nigga, I literally posted the rules in the thread. If they aren't "equipped" with the grenades, they don't get any assault bonuses. There is literally nothing to imply that "having" the grenades means they're "equipped" with them but not "armed" with them.
>>48473118
>>48473044
Yeah, I missed that initially. So, Daemons of Nurgle can throw Blind Grenades, but only if they have some other shooting attack to give up. Damn.
>>48473081
Welcome to Warhammer 40k!

>>48473134
the majority of post you linked agree with you.

Wouldn't it make more sense to link the people who are not agreeing with you?

>>48473157
Is that an attempt at a straw-man or are you just illiterate? How about you go back and read my post in full before you respond to it.

>>48473134
>Did this generation went retarded?
Pot, kettle, etc.

Your difficulties with verbs aside, your post is kinda off anyways. The group looking to gain an advantage is the group actually reading the rules as written.

>>48473192
>you just illiterate
Ah, more cookware.

Please, read the rules up here >>48472933 . Their is nothing in the rules to suggest "having" only means "equipped" and not "armed." All three are synonymous in this context.

>>48473167
>Yeah, I missed that initially. So, Daemons of Nurgle can throw Blind Grenades, but only if they have some other shooting attack to give up. Damn.

This does suck. I wanted a nurgling firing line.

>>48473118
isn't the wording for throwing grenades the same as the wording for running?
"in place of shooting"

Is there any job in the Imperium that's "fun," in the way we think of fun?

>>48473239
Now I'm curious as to what other models get grenades but lack the alternate shooting weapon to allow their use. The only one that I've found thus far is the Mistress of Repentance from the SoB Reptentia Squad.

>>48473252
Yep, which is why you don't try to to play the game RAW, use your common sense.

>>48473252
>When a unit armed with defensive grenades makes a shooting attack, one model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon.

You have to be able to make a shooting attack to begin with I think.

>>48473252
Very similar wording yes. Close enough that a strict RaW interpretation probably would be that units without shooting weapons that they can fire that turn cannot run. Of course, nobody plays it that way, so presumably everybody would be fine with Nurgle Grenadiers.

>>48473294
>On their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing.
You have to be able to make a shooting attack to begin with to be able to give it up to run.

That doesn't make sense does it? I didn't think so

>>48473202
English is my third language. Still fuck up from time to time.

>>48473186
My bad.

>>48473333
>In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing. Roll a D6 to determine the maximum Run distance for the entire unit. Models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count as having Run.

>>48473358
>>48473294
The difference between the two is that a shooting attack is explicitly referenced in the grenade rule. To make a shooting attack, you have to select a ranged weapon.

It really is too bad, because nurgling grenadiers sounds awesome.

>>48473383
and are still legal unless you're a massive asshole or idiot.

>>48473383
Did they eliminate the little fluff behind the rules, that explained the intention of the rules?

Like "Nurgle daemons have nurglings crawling and running around them, expanding the toxic miasma so distinct to Nurgle" something like.

There now big bad smelly dude can throw his little smelly dude.

>>48473358
you just quoted the rest of the rule that has nothing to do with shooting. What are you getting at

>>48473383
As per page 30, a unit armed with a ranged weapon can be chosen to make a shooting attack. Grenades are listed in codexes as ranged weapons. The case for "grenades being usable without other ranged weapons" is stronger than the case for "running without ranged weapons."

>>48473477
So the grenade is basically just a ranged weapon with a one model/unit gets to use this per turn specification?

>>48473261
Being an Abrites could be fun, but it really depends on the planet.

>>48473167
>Welcome to autists using their own logic and anal ruleslawyering

FTFY

>>48471466
No, he'd likely collect the gene-seed and give to that chapter at the first chance he got, as any gene-seed is a precious resource and worthy of protection until it can be returned to the proper authorities.

>Everyone's tired of hearing us CSM players whine about our shitty codex
>Still I don't get why we hate it that much

What, in your opinion, is the one true big bad evil problem with the current codex ? Is it that it lacks options ? That it isn't actually buildable to face WAACfaggotry ? Or that it doesn't have options to build the big CSM factions like Alpha Legion or Night Lords ? Or am I getting it all wrong ?

>>48474059
Serious lack of meaningful options papered over by "special rules" that are almost always worse, partially detrimental, or poorly written and conflicting the purpose of the unit.

There are a handful of cool options in the codex still, but you can't spam blastmasters into relevancy as a codex.

It's not that there's one big bad evil issue, it's that it's clearly half-assed and underwrought, especially in comparison to old csm dexes, and this manifests itself at every level of the codex.

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>>48468753
I laughed. It felt good. Thank you

>>48468981
>tfw formations will get removed
>tfw nids will lose any access to a fluffy endless swarm until someone comes along and gives it back but much worse than it already is

>>48474059

Let's put it that way

>No legion rules
>No alternate CAD with formations
>Almost everything in the book is either overcosted or underpowered compared to loyalists
>No drop pod, no grav weapons, no great wargear for ICs.
>Marks are underwhelming and are never worth taking aside MoN in some cases.
>Have to take Daemon allies if you want to compete at a competitive level.

And all of this is accentuated by two things :

>CSM are a very popular faction which means they have a big playerbase

and

>CSM used to have the most flavourfull codex GW has ever printed that was also top tier.

So yhea, CSM players have the right to complain about their shit book, especially since GW seems to have forgotten their existence and doesn't plan on publishing an update.

>>48472079

Chimera-embarked command squad with x4 plasma guns.
Use 'Take it down!' if it has a 4++.
Use 'On my target!' if it didn't pay for the 4++, but is using cover.

>>48474059
Everything costs a shitload points wise. You are always outnuumbered and always outgunned from what the other codexes can bring.

Its a big random blob of mess with rules that have no meaning.

You pay the loyalist fee for MEQ but you lack atsnkf. your tanks compared to loyalist counterparts are shit and cost the same.

No legion tactics /rules.

Its a half assed first codex of 6th edition and it shows badly.

>>48474059

Everything is overpriced, all the cool units suck, all the formations are shit, and instead of adding anything good you get to pay more for an inferior lolrandomxDxD chart if you want to do anything. It also doesn't really let you build any cool fluffy forces without getting BTFO and the only supplements are for Chaos Ultramarines and a no-name Khorne renegade chapter (who I actually like) who also have shitty options for the most part.

This is my first draft at a 1750pts IH army allied with admech. The goal here is to make a mechanized army with lots of walkers because I like them while trying to keep the whole thing as competitive as possible.

What do you think ?

Primary Detachment: Fist of Medusa Strike Force

Armoured Task Force
Techmarine – The Ironstone, 2 servitors 115pts
Predator – Lascannons 140pts
Predator – Lascannons 140pts
Vindicator Squadron – 3 Vindicators w/ stormbolter 375pts

Honoured Ancients
Ironclad Dreadnought – Chainfist, x2 heavy flamers, Drop Pod 180pts

Honoured Ancients
Dreadnought – x2 Twinlinked autocannons 120pts

Allied detachment: Cult Mechanicus

HQ
Techpriest Dominus 105pts

Troop
x6 Kataphron Destroyers – Heavy grav cannons 330pts


Allied Detachment: Skitarii

Troop
x10 Skitarii Rangers 120pts

Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler – Icarus array 125pts

>>48473845
No need to shitpost just because you're too stupid to realise that having, equipped, and armed are all different words.

>>48474059
We pay out the ass for inferior options. We're supposed to be more CC oriented, but we can't actually get into assault and we don't do very well once we get there.

>>48474335
Now all you faggots need to do is prove how they differ in terms of the rules.

>>48468997
Space Wolves. I've learned that you have to wolf your wolves good or they won't wolf hard enough.

Is there any way to stick a herald of nurgle on a plaguedrone mount?

>>48468997

For my armies:

Necrons: Be agressive. Your defence will take care of itself.

Daemons of Tzeentch: Don't even bother, the structure of the psychic phase makes this army dissolutioning and unfun. Can either play OP as fuck or unplayably wimpy with no middle ground whatsoever depending on which tables you pick to roll on.

Daemons of Khorne: Be fast and redundant and above all, fast.

Daemon engines with cultist tax: Either win because your opponent didn't take enough anti-vehicle, or lose very badly. No middle ground again.

Tau: Tone your list the fuck down, because winning before you hit the table isn't fun.

Admech: Manage your buffs carefully, the rest is just knowing what your units are good at and maintaining target priority discipline.

Dreadnought and Tank Spam through Anvil Strike Force: Gimmick lists can be fun if you already have a lot of normal armies!

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>>48472079

>Tau player sets up entire army
>you set up a single Stormlord with an Atlas taped to its ass
>He shoots at it with everything, you tell him you have a 4+ invuln save.
>why?
>Azrael embarked inside
>Tau fails to knock off all 9 hullpoints. Your turn
>"The 4 enginseers inside roll twice each to repair lost hullpoints on a 2+"
>Repair all lost hullpoints
>"My 20 Jokaeros inside fire from the firing points. They will use lascannons this turn."
>Fire 22 lascannons, 3 TL heavy bolters, and an overcharged vulcan megabolter twice
>He deepstrikes plasma / fusion by you turn 2
>You shoot the deepstrikes with 20 lascannon jokaeros
>Why!?
>Coteaz is embarked in there, too
>Do this for 5 more turns

You might still lose, but it would be fun

>>48474972
This is beyond simple Deathstar, anon. It's a work of art.

>>48474972
Can multiple units be embarked on that thing though?

>>48475030
The rules for a super heavy allow it, I think.

>>48468997
Orks - Play strategical, know your opponents weaknesses and exploit them while protecting your own.
Generally is - Destroy vehicles with long range anti tank fire (tankbustas, warbuggies and kannons are an amazing example of this) and wipe their infantry with yours depending on army. If the enemy is more powerful focus on holding objectives and tarpitting, dont play like an "ork" just be smart and think strategically and you should come worst case with a close game.
Daemons - HAHA NIGGA I DONT GIVE A FUCK WATCH ME DEEPSTRIKE 90% OF MY ARMY AND LOSE HALF IT IN 1 TURN THEN ASSAULT YOUR ARMY AND WIPE YOU TURN 3 I DONT CARE IM FUCKING INSANE HAHAHAHA FUCKS FOR THE FAG GOD SKULLS FOR THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME THRONE

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>>48475030
>>48475051

transport capacity: 40
twenty models may fire out of it

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>>48475030

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>>48474972
>>48475136
>>48475197