MTG Standard

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>>48378321
I'm hyped delirium strats

I think it's gonna be a pretty competitive deck. Curving Grim Flayer into Lili into Demon into spider seems crazy and you get hardcore power in the late by being able to Transverse into whatever creature you need but probably using it to get a discounted Emrakul.

I think the problem the deck will have is trying to balance out it's card types so it's easy to turn on delirium by turn 3 or 4

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first for viability

>>48378664
hangarback walker my dude

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>>48378321
>mfw I just preordered a booster box of EMN
I just want the Hanweir Blob. Anything else is bonus.

>>48378321
Deploy the Gatewatch

>>48378725
send me ur spirits

>>48378733
how many planeswalkers you plan on playing?

>>48378321
I'm gonna make a RW human/Eldrazi deck. That archetype is being pushed hard core. I'm also gonna make either BU or mono B zombie tribal.

I'm pretty sure we're mostly going to be seeing RW human decks and other variations.

I decided to sell out of standard because it has become a slow bore of a format and WOTC has been purposefully make each new set less and less powerful than the last. Both to slow the format down, and to stop support of older formats by not introducing playable cards to them.

Snore.

>>48378734
naw fuk u I need as many UW spirits as I can nab for my Geist EDH deck

>>48378760
I would say Eldritch Moon is one of the most powerful sets we've gotten recently but alright buddy

>>48378804
Yeah... for standard. Still slow, still shit.

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>>48378753

>>48378733
I wonder if a Superfriends EDH deck is viable now.
>Progenitus for colors and damage in case shit hits the fan
>Literally all PWers (except Tibalt, fuck Tibalt)
>Tutors, draw engines, mana ramps

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>>48378321
I'm currently testin pic related in my Thing in the Ice deck, so far it's kinda neat.

What kind of prize structures does your LGS have?

Do you do based on position or record? I'm helping out a first time TO and want to get an idea of what a decent consensus on what prize structures people like.

>>48378866
>Khans of Tarkir
>Some of the most powerful Blue spells since Urza Block

>Oathgatewatchers
>First time new creatures have made it to Vintage since Innistrad

>Eldritch Moon
>Fucking red Ancestral Recall on a stick if Hellbent

The cards they're printing are fine, you rarely expect more than 1-2 cards from a set to make it into Legacy, even less so into Vintage. Then there's Modern, but no one cares about Modern.

Standard itself as a format sucks, I agree. But that has more to do with how such things as Burn and Blue Permission are considered no-go archetypes for Standard.

3x Abandon Reason
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
4x Borrowed Hostility
4x Fiery Temper
4x Furyblade Vampire
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Magmatic Chasm
21x Mountain
4x Stromkirk Occultist
4x Uncaged Fury
4x Zurgo Bellstriker


RDW I made, under $25 reminds me of atarka red

>>48379054
Mostly by record, except occasional things like gpts. Used to be by position, but tiebreakers are major feelbads for pretty much everyone, and the top two drawing the final game every time is pretty dull. Plus, by record is very easy to understand, instead of having to figure out where you'll end up in standings and if you'll squeak into prizing, you know exactly where you stand. At 1-1 in a four round tournament in position, 1 win = maybe prize if lucky, 2 wins = definitely prize, maybe more prize if lucky, while at 1-1 in record, you know 1 win = prize, 2 wins = bigger prize. I'd say by record is vastly, vastly superior, especially for more casual events like fnm (I'd also argue it would probably work for GPs and other major events too, but that's another rant).

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>>48378321
All I want to do this standard season is emerge one of these guys, then sac it to emerge a second one. Then Macabre Waltz and do it again. Don't care if it's an awful deck, if I end the game this way even once, I'll have gotten all I want out of standard.

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>>48379054
Record. 1 win equals 3 points, a draw is 1 point, a loss is 0 points. You need at least 1 win or 3 draws for a pack, and winning 4 matches nets you about 6 packs
>>48379603
>mfw I kept on emerging Mindbender with Emissary during prerelease then smashing away at my opponent's health
Netted me 3 boosters thanks to WBG face smashy

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I want to make a hyper agressive deck with these babies real bad. anyone have any ideas?

>>48379877
R/UB force discard.

>>48379877
>>48379912
alternatively, Madness aggro, but then you won't be able to card advantage as easily

>>48378664

It's not that big of a deal. You have Hangarback Walker to double up and still be a useful card(as of course do not have more than one on the field against W based decks), Vessel of Nascency and Noose Constricter to fuel the graveyard. So many of the early drop delirium creatures have deathtouch meaning you can swing/trade into Sylvan Advocates with impunity.

>>48379059
>First time new creatures have made it to Vintage since Innistrad

Wait, doesn't Monastery Mentor see play in Vintage?

>>48380274
... We don't speak of Him.

>>48380291

We just Engineered Plague in Vintage instead right?

>>48380356
Nah man, we have Sulfur Elemental.

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So what ever happened to this? Has it had any real impact in standard?

>>48380648
that's not a green or a white card anon.

Red and blue got steam rolled by the aggro. Now that we have a second early game shock in galvanic bombardment and incendiary flow to kill early game sylvan advocates, the deck might come together.
>turn 6, bedlam reveler and thing in the ice out
>play 2 spells, flip thing in the ice and swing in for 12
I think there might be just enough new cards to support the archetype.

>>48378975
ascendancy pingers didn't a try(due to lack of pingers) make it happen.
I think the eldrazi pinger was each opponent instead of regular ping as well.

>>48380808
That's because that eldrazi pinger got killed by literally anything. Thermo-alchemist works by staying alive and working with all of your non-creature spells (besides enchantments, but nobody plays those besides white).

>>48379054
My shop during the prerelease did a prize booster for every match you won.

>>48380711
What's the point of running Incendiary Flow when you can run Fiery Temper for 1 off the madness? Madness is super easy to get right now.

I'm hoping to get a play set of both hanweir garrison and hanweir battlements for a sweet R/W control deck I'm picking up. The tokens are just gonna be killer for the long twen game as chump blockers and baiting into blocks for various white removals to be able to destroy key creatures. Also I'm not very competitive, just a play group that likes to play standard without throwing hundreds down the toilet because we only play with each other.

>>48380648
Early standard, but blue players aparently need things like aetherling to able to use creatures. Declaration in Stone hated it out of the format. Maybe now with Take Inventory, Bedlam Reveler and all this insane support it had and now has more.
First SCG had Goggles Deck that used it.

>>48380921
You still have to devote slots to Fiery temper and the madness cards. Incendiary flow can come down turn 2, every time, no need to worry about madness, and the incidental exile can be a big deal in keeping an Avacyn from flipping for a turn or removing a Kalitas from the unending BG value train. That said, its probably at most going to be a 1 or 2 of, because I'd prefer roast for dealing with fucking sylvan advocates when they're at 6 lands.

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>>48381172
>>48381172
>Reveler Titi deck
>No Fiery Temper because muh slots

Are you testing that shit, anon? Because I got pretty salty when I lost to this deck after having a Reveler discard 2 Fiery Tempers for Madness upon cast, draw 3, then Take Inventory to draw 4.

>>48378758
Include extricator of sin in that list, literal eldrazi lord at uncommon

>>48381378
How exactly does that combo work? Not being argumentative as I'm not that guy, I'm just curious on how the 2 fiery temper draw 4 combo plays off.

>>48380274
Yes, and that deck is fun.

Planning on building a jeskai eldrazi emerge deck with some madness burn

LETS GO JE$KAI HUMANS

>>48380029
Asylum Visitor?

>>48380029
>>48381701
I can confirm that Vampires gets decent card advantage. Not stunning, but the faster board presence and constant 2-for-1s are worth it. Dies to wraths though.

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>>48379877
I too am a fan of RoboDoggo. To start, run 4 of him and 4 of pic related.

Is there a site that lets me quickly look through sets by things like legendary creature or CMC and is visual? Seems every site is extremely clunky

>>48382267
Gatherer...

>>48381428
>that card
Fuck yes I will!

I have a list for Jeskai Humans, what should I put in for lands?

Thalia's Lieutenant
Anafenza Kin-Tree
Thraben Inspector
Reflector Mage
Ojutai's Command
Hanweir Garrison
Town Gossipmonger
Gryff's Boon
Declaration in Stone
Always Watching

What should I make the quantity of these cards? How should I design the landbase? Do I have enough removal?

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Is Bant going to be good without dromoka and CoCo? I just want to play some sweet trackers and shit but dont want to invest cash if its gonna be a bust come september.

>>48382897

Yes, but it'll smash even harder with CoCo, there are a few tutors, but not so much "to the battlefield" unless you're flicking in Bruna, and then it's coming from the GY to the battlefield

>>48381500
>Play Bedlam Reveler, probably for 1RR because you've already got instants and sorceries in your graveyard
>Discard your hand + draw 3 trigger goes on stack
>Discard your hand + draw 3 trigger resolves
>You discard two fiery tempers and enough Take Inventory to bring the Take Inventory count in your graveyard up to 3
>Then you draw three cards, one of them is another Take Inventory
>Fiery Tempers are discarded into exile because of the madness, their madness triggers go on stack
>Pay R for each of the Fiery Tempers to cast them, that's six damage worth of burn
>Cast one of the Take Inventories you've drawn, draw a card for Take Inventory then 3 more cards for 3 Take Inventories in your graveyard

>>48382897
CoCo won't be a bust since it's a modern staple, Dromoka's is also played in some modern decks I think

>>48381673
>no company
its shit

>>48382897
a playset of Commands is fucking $12 and CoCos are super heavily played in modern

just get em you cheap shit.

Think of it this way, you're wasting a lot more money going to FNM every Friday just to lose because your deck is shit

So I whipped up a quick BG Delirum deck and so far the deck has been consistent in not only achieving delirium but curving out well into most attacks. Whispers of Emrakul is the real deal, welcome to Hymn to Tourach part deux electric boogaloo.

>>48383836
List?

Heres the list I whipped up as per >>48383836.

NAME:BG Delirium Aggro-midrange test

Creatures:
3 Mournwillow
2 Mindwrack Demon
3 Deathcap Cultivator
4 Grim Flayer
3 Noose Constrictor
4 Gnarlwood Dryad

Artifact Creatures:
4 Hangarback Walker

Enchantments:
2 Autumnal Gloom

Planeswalker:
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

Sorcery:
3 Whispers of Emrakul
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald

Instant:
3 To the Slaughter

Land:
1 Westvale Abbey
5 Swamp
7 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Hissing Quagmire
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium

SIDEBOARD:
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Virulent Plague
2 Ainok Survivalist
2 Ruinous Path
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet(Good card but not sure if necessarily needed to bring in, just a hedge against Zombies and the odd random reanimator decks if they do start being played more.)
2 Crop Sigil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Pick the Brain
1 Duress(This could probably change but if in doubt on what to do then Duress is still fine)
1 The Gitrog Monster

This is not the be all end all definitive delirium list, you could probably even tinker with Eldritch Evolution, Emerge cards or even New'mrakul. You can consider a more grindy shell using Deathmist Raptor/Den protectors, another one running more walkers like Ob nix and more Lili's main, another using more aggressive 2 drops and more pump spells to fuel delirum even faster, some playing a more value longer end game trying to abuse Gitrog and Groundskeeper into a bit more of a ramp deck into big stuff.

>>48384003
TAPPED OUT
A
P
P
E
D

O
U
T

>>48384003
I feel like it's completely incorrect not to be playing new Liliana in BG delirium

As well I feel like most delirium decks should be maxxing out their Mindwrack demons and playing at least a few of the Spider legend. I'd also highly recommend putting 1 emrakul just to tutor up with transverse

>>48384034

If you want to play a bigger end curve with the Spider then go nuts. There's nothing wrong with the card but i'm just not running it in that list because the top end cmc is 4.

Traverse is mainly there to get you a finisher later on(e.g Mournwillow letting you swing past a bunch of chump blocking tokens and having haste), give you something to cast turn 1 or allow you to keep hands that would have been unkeepable due to one land hands. There's been a few times when i've had an opening hand of just one forest but due to Traverse I was able to curve straight into the Grim Flayer on turn 2. I could probably up the Mindwrack Demon count but the bulk of that particular list is casting stuff on cmc 2.

That list in particular is notable in being able to go straight through a Sylvan Advocate early on. You have quite a few deathtouch dudes or stuff that can get bigger than the Sylvan Advocate fast. Like I said earlier it's just a very quick and dirty shell thrown up.

>>48384027

Too bad you get deckstats instead

http://deckstats.net/deck-10643053-48efe5f59a7b916d5f2a9a2b57b135b1.html

>>48384118
That is also fine. Thank you.

>>48379054
After previously having a top-heavy prize pool, my LGS decided to run FNMs at pack-per-win, which everyone was happy for.
Tell your TO to download Wizards Event Reporter and use it to handle player seating and matchups.

>>48382267
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=magic+card+database&l=1

>>48379877
Run nahiris wrath and use graveyard tricks

>>48379877
Play Affinity (the Modern deck)

>>48381378
I don't know anon, that seems really christmas land esque. I could see that paying off with bedlam reveler, but are we running lightning axes as well to make fiery temper do work? should we add in just the wind to make sure we have more chances for flips?

It could work but I think just using the homunculus to get better value out of slightly more expensive spells normally seems like a better call. I think it could be good, and its definitely worth testing though.

>>48378947
Superfriend decks have been in edh for fucking ages. I'm guessing you don't play the format. Unless you're asking if the superfriend deck is competitive now in which case hahaha fuck no.

>>48378760
>that new Thalia
>tree of perdition
>eldritch evolution
>gissa and geralf
>mirrorwing dragon
It's got a lot of powerful things playable in other formats. Way more things than gatewatch.

>>48386433
Well It may seem Christmaslandesque, but I got that to the face and I wasen't happy about it.
You should be using Lightning Axe and Tormenting Voice. With it, you won't have to worry about card advantage or 2 for 1 against a big creature or Walker, not that you need to because blue now has Oblivion Ring :^)

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>>48386645
>Way more than gatewatch

>2 drop format breaker Eldrazi
>3 drop replace itself Eldrazi
>4 drop Nazi Eldrazi
>5 drop rough anal sex Eldrazi
>7 drop land breaker Eldrazi
>Kalitas
>Dank Dwellers

You mentioned Gisa & Geralf so EDH as well.
>Tazri
>Ayli

>>48386645
You also forgot most of the Emerge creatures that could get broken with Delve Creatures

And the new Demon card and maybe splendid reclamation, harmless offering

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I threw this together last night, any ideas on how to improve it?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/emergent-properties/

>>48386821
>tfw when I got 4x Call the Gatewatch instead of any of those
Kill me

>>48382267
Magiccards.info

Duels Origins had the new cards yesterday. Chaining emerge creatures is fun as heck (everyone gets gryff, flashcrab and 4/4 with insects for free)

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Ive been been working on an evolution deck in my head for the past few days and finally decided to make a tappedout account so I can get it in a list/playtest it.

Let me know what you think.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/not-birthing-pod/

>>48384118
Based.
People should already migrate to deckstats because tapped out guys are too stubborn to get on with current web dev standards

>>48379054
my LGS for this summer in SF has shit prize support
my LGS in chicago has 2 packs if you go 0-3, then like 9 for 3-0

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What are good answers against Bant CoCo? Especially against this card and Sylvan Advocate?

>>48388133
Bant CoCo

>>48388239
this
or spirits tbqh
>until your next turn

>>48388133
RU Horror dosen't give a shit about both.

>>48388133
>>48388239
Or if you are a true nigga, have nothing they can bounce or counterspell their dumb asses

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>>48388363
Brain in a Jar

Can't wait for this dumpster midrange grindfest to finally end, so that I can finally play draw-go control again.

t. Autist

>>48379877
Heartless Summoning & Myr Superion for spicy tech.

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Okay, so I am trying to make a deck that will sit in standard for a long while and still be relevant. Monoblack eldrazi.
Thoughts and comments? I've not messed with standard much so I'm not too sure of a lot of terms. I just want to smash face with eldrazi and hold off on the opponent building up too fast against it. With EMN out, I'm also curious of any suggestions for this from the set since I've not gone through the whole thing.

>>48388746

murder?

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>>48388133
Shits on Jace pretty nicely, too.

>>48388133
>>48378696

So we have 3 tri colour planeswalkers now (grixis, temur and bant) , what so you guys hink of them so far and what would you like the orther ones to do , i cant think of a good esper one myself

Found another gimmick for the emerge jerks. Surge creatures still have their full mana cost if you want to pop out of them.

>>48389221
oath of nissa and play all 3

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Putting this along with the insect scientist into my Bu brains tides ormendahl deck. It's pretty fucking annoying to play against. Scientist is in there just to provide another sac outlet to get ormendahl flipped out. Dilation isn't exactly needed but a 2 of in the deck just for gravy.

Is there any life gain artifacts that are standard legal that let you gain life for each spell cast of a color?

Any way to see a card list of everything currently standard legal?

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>>48382897
what is up with that hitoshi chin on her

>>48390011
her chin is hidden by her collar, that is her collar.

>>48389421

>Is there any life gain artifacts that are standard legal that let you gain life for each spell cast of a color?

Yeah it's called Prism Ring and it's got a CMC of 1. You choose the colour as it enters the battlefield. It's part of the mono-blue prism deck(I say mono blue but there's variants that splash into black or white)

>>48390693
Oh I wasn't aware prism ring was still legal, sweet I already got a couple.

>>48390994
Speaking of that, what's standard after EMN officially releases tomorrow.

>>48388347
How does horror get around that?

>>48391080
Dragons of Tarkir and newer. Standard isn't changing till kaladesh

>>48391221
Probably thinks flipping titi is the answer

>>48391720
>>48391221
after it's been bounced and had its counters reset

>>48388133

Hallowed Moonlight against the CoCo, flicker your dude out with flickering spells, Infinite Obliteration, Spell queller etc. There's a couple of relevant cards.

So I wasn't around for the original innistrad, how does drafting with doublefaced cards work? And the few times I drafted origins planeswalkers were basically instant pick for everyone anyway.

>>48392714
Draft them face up so others can see (yes, really) then use the supplies face cards that have managed cost and name. Mark these with a sharpie.
If you have solid backed sleeves; disregard second bit

>>48378664

Delirium seems really awkward to reach tho.

>>48392803
Naw, with the right deck, it's ezpz. Instants and sorceries are the easiest to get in the grave, and if you don't want to mill yourself, an artifact creature, a chump blocker, Evolving Wilds, and/or sac enchants/artifacts are good.

>>48392803

It's really not. Try the list i posted here >>48384003

Any green/white cards that can get shit out of my hand and back in my deck?

>>48392920

I'm not sure I follow, you want cards in G/W that put a card in your hand back into your library?

>>48392940

Yeah bricking in certain combos

>>48393037

I don't think any exists from a quick search i'm looking at, like there's cards to put from graveyard or play on top or bottom of your library but that's it.

>>48378696
Bant coco mirrors cocoing in response to hit this guy

Are there any good Sultai decks that won't leave me broke?

>>48393681
Nope.

>brew eldritch evolution all fucking day
>it just becomes gw humans

fuck

>>48391221
By burning it.

>>48391720
>>48391988
Titi gets fucked, Reveler is the champ here.

>>48393681

You basically need Kalitas, Languish, Sylvan Advocates, and Tireless Trackers.

Thankfully, other than Languish the removal is relatively cheap. Grasp/Price/Ruinous Path.

You can probably trim costs to keep it at about $220-250.

>>48386821

None of those eldrazi are even playable without eye of Ugin which already existed

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What the fuck is happening here

https://youtu.be/SRytdukhtAE?t=1990

(happens at 33:10 if link doesnt work)

He attempts to counter languish with a 1/1 wanderer, which the abzan player has many to pay for, then the spirits player plays ojutais command drawing a card and returning the sacrificed wanderer, then when his other wanderer gets +1+1 and becomes a 2/2, he sacs that to counter, which the abzan player cant pay for

so this would imply that the stack gives priority to both players between resolution of the cards on it? And that attempting to counter something doesnt need to happen when its being cast but just before it starts to resolve?

Sorry no judge thread up so I am posting here.

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>>48395209
Exactly.

>>48392877
I've been playing a sultai delirium deck in SOI and trust me its not easy. Even with a well constructed deck you can't really count on delirium until after turn 5, unless you just jam a bunch of bad cards in like vessel of nascency and noose constrictor which don't help you win the game.

>>48395425

>Sultai

Well there's your problem right there. You're playing too many colours for a deck that has a far more simpler gameplan and approach that can be achieved with two colours.

>>48384003
what are you playing this on? paper?

>>48395425
>You can't count on delirium until after turn 5

Seriously nigga, what are you doing?
Most decks reach Delirium turn 3, turn 4 tops when Mindwrack Demon lands.

>>48395588

Well I can only play it online since technically the set isn't out yet in paper(well it is out now today for me) but from what i've played against it's fairly consistent.

>>48395209
>so this would imply that the stack gives priority to both players between resolution of the cards on it?
Uhh yes.
>And that attempting to counter something doesnt need to happen when its being cast but just before it starts to resolve?
Yes. The stack will only resolve one spell/ability at a time. When a spell/ability is finished resolving, the active player receives priority again. The stack doesn't just blast out uninterrupted top to bottom as soon as both players pass priority.

>>48395634
what have you been using to play it online cuz its not on mtgo yet

>>48395867

>The stack doesn't just blast out uninterrupted top to bottom as soon as both players pass priority.

Not the guy you're replying to but believe it or not it used to work like this. Back when INTERRUPTS were an actual card type as well.

>>48395928

I probably should have clarified I was testing on xmage, not MTGO.

>>48395970
>xmage
alright cool thanks

>>48388746

First off, it looks like you're playing some garbage cards like Complete Disregard, and not even playing 4 of some of the best creatures ever made aka Thought Knot and Smasher.

I play B/W Eldrazi, which gives me access to Sorin, Secure The Wastes, Anguished Unmaking, Ayli, Declaration in Stone....and I even just tried Thraben Inspector and was not disappointed. I run To The Slaughter in black....and Blighted Fen. Why don't you have Blighted Fen? Also I get access to Shambling Vents, which always comes through strong.

Trangress the Mind is actually underwhelming. I wasn't doing well with the deck until I took them out. The top of my curve is Sorin and Secure The Wastes, but I just want to curve Inspector-Ayli-Reshaper-Thought-Knot-Smasher, and fill out any missed drop with removal. Love Bearer as it can be a 2 or 4 drop. It's more aggro/control. Ton of fun to play, your deck looks like it's running a lot of bad cards for no reason.

>>48396146

My list looks somewhat like this....I'm not looking for advice so INB4 Tappedout.

4x Thraben Inspector
4x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Thought Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
2x Sorin, Grim Nemisis
2x Secure The Wastes
4x Anguished Unmaking
4x To The Slaughter
4x Spacial Contortion

4x Shambling Vents
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Westvale Abbey
3x Warped Landscape
6x Swamp
6x Plains

The landbase might be off, but it's something like that. I'd probably run one more Westvale.

I put the Declarations in my sideboard. They're actually too slow in my meta. Bearer of Silence used to be mainboard, I just shifted them to sideboard to try out the Inspectors, and I was happy with it. I play 3 Hallowed Moonlight in the sideboard, and switch between 4 Duress or 4 Silkwrap depending on how I feel. I wish I had more first place finishes, but it hasn't had a losing record.

>>48388746
I'd ditch sifter of skulls; feel thats more appropriate for a sacrifice deck

How do I get better at draft lads

>>48396715
Play draft.

No, seriously. It's half learning what cards are good together and half learning how to evaluate what the other nerds around you are probably going to take.

That said, this is a Standard thread, not a Limited one. Kindly GTFO, please and thank you.

>>48396302
I think there's way too many token making shits floating around for To the Slaughter to be very good, especially since it feels like you might not be able to reliably turn on Delirium all that easily

>>48396715

Don't commit yourself to a color combination or even a color until you have such a good group of cards in that color that you can afford to take playable draft fodder in that color for the rest of the draft and still have a solid deck

Prioritize cards that give you value immediately over cards that durdle but have high potential (Christmas land cards), i.e.

Make sure your deck has meat, you need some cards that win if you stick them, like Drogskol cavalry or gitrog monster

>>48396908
Thanks lad

>>48396784

Thats a personal meta choice for me. I dont deal with too much token shit so an instand speed edict is good for me, otherwise I can sideboard them out for Decs. To The Slaughter by itself might not seem like much, but mixed with Bearers and Fens, plus other removal, it's a lot for opponents to deal with. I dont care about the delirium.

>>48396715
Its important to ask yourself what the objective best card in the pack is and what it says if that card is still there. If you've gotten a dauntless cathar or Nearheath Chaplain 6 or 7th pick the table is screaming at you that white is open. This is essential during the first pack, and you should be totally willing to shift colors if it looks like you aren't getting your current colors either because of the person to your right or farther down.
Remember that if you're the only one in a color at a table you can totally build an insane deck in 2 packs. Reading signals is the most essential part of the draft.

>>48379054
Prizes based on position, numbers based on entry total. Each person entering puts 2 boosters into the pool.

>>48381775
Scratch that, after testing the deck is inconsistent shit. Please don't build it, but do spec on robodoggos since they're like 2$ and may see modern play in Robots.

>>48394714
So? They still BROKE MODERN.

>>48396715
Listen to Limited Resources like they're giving you the codes to the safe that has your grandmother's lifesaving medicine in it.

>>48398810
>being this sensationalist
Eye was potentially 8 mana on turn 1. It was the problem. Eldrazi was a couple months of a stale meta. It was warped, not broken, and at least it was something different.

>>48399086
>tfw kozileks distortion fuckery fomented in real life

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>goto the lgs
>"id like to buy one EMN box and my free thalia buy a box promo please"
>"sure ill sell you a box buy we are all out of promos"
>"hmm well i kinda wanted that promo for my cube, never mind i wont take the box"
>leave lgs
>check their website
>Thalia buy a box promo for sale 186 in stock
>fucking jews
>mfw

>>48399663
The promo is going for $24, i would jew you too

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>>48395956
It also works like this in yugioh, still does, confused the fuck out me when I first got into magic.
>mfw I got into and stopped playing magic as a kid around future sight cause I found it too hard with all the different mechanics floating around
>mfw I got back into it, I find out Goyfs were in that set and had I cracked more packs as a kid, I would have got one.
>pic related, one of my favorite cards from future sight as a kid

>>48399663
Report them to Wizards. Stores aren't supposed to sell promos, they're supposed to give them out as part of the BaB promotion OR give them out at events (as additional promotions or in case they run out of the normal promos), but NEVER sell them

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Would this card be good in a UW tempo deck?

>>48394714
Mimic, Matter Reshaper, and Worldbreaker... no
TKNazi and Anal Smasher on a different level though, not only are they still playable in a top tier deck after the ban, they're good enough to be played in Vintage, in a deck without Eye of Ugin.
Those two assholes are legit some of the best creatures ever printed.

>>48401019
I mean U Tempo decks are the only place it's playable, and UR doesn't look like it's going to be a thing till Kaladesh so....

Casualish player here. I ended up with a Pre-release deck with 2 Hanweir Garrisons, 2 Ride Downs, and a shitload of red and white removal. I 3-0'd pretty easily by just keeping the path clear for a Garrison for a couple of turns and ending up with an overwhelming board presence.

Does Garrison have any chance in constructed? Or more specifically, does it have any chance to do something fun or is it doomed to just being a splash in some White Humans decks?

>>48401384

>Does Garrison have any chance in constructed?

Yes, it does. It will likely go up in price.

Are there any standard reanimate decks that don't get shit on? I'm seeing the potential for a turn five emrakul with necromantic summons but this feels like Christmas land thinking.

Where do you guys trade online? I'm trying deckbox but it's pretty hard to find people who check regularly.

>>48381428
K, followed up doing that, and here's the list I've got:
4x
extricator of sin
desperate sentry
otherworldly outburst
Lone Rider
Borrowed hostility
Decleration in stone (Right now I have incendiary flow as the stand-in sorcery removal)
Nahiri's Machinations
Hanweir Garrision
Hanweir Battlement

2x
Nahiri, Harbringer
Ethereal Guidance

1x Emurakul, The Promised End

10x plains
9x mountains

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Remember guys - you shouldn't depict dead bodies on trees. It makes some people instantly think of KKK and niggers.

>>48395867
I have learned something new. Totally thought you had to counter when cast.

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>>48402725
First thought on my mind is Hang 'Em High. The movie in which a man is wronged and left to die hanging on a tree, but comes back for revenge.

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>>48402725
Then there are the hangings in Witcher. Lots of dead guys swinging from trees for lots of reasons.

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Bought my two boxes and enjoying some subway

Will I pull shit or get fucked senpai?

>>48402725
that's fair
>>48403242
send me your spirits

>>48403242
what's the alt thalia from?

>>48403486

Buy a box

> going to buy a box today
> decide to play some video poker
> win like sixty bucks
> cash out and decide to just do twenty
> start shaking really bad as I start to lose and keep sinking money in
> win my cash back
> voice in my head screaming to just stop
> lose all my money and feel physically ill
> know I'm an idiot fucking degenerate and feel like stepping into traffic

>>48403609
my man

>>48403242
The only value you can hit are very specific spirits, meme spider, emmy, and gisela. You probably won't get shit.

>>48401949
I actually wanted some advice for this too:
Delerium is very important in this deck, Should I swap out some creatures and add in more enchantments and sorceries? I wanna hit Delerium as quickly as possible. Maybe swap out Lone Rider and borrowed hostility to make the deck more stream lined for agression? I was also considering adding in two heinweir militia captains for more token generation.

I'm also considering splashing green for CoCo to make hitting the Garrison a lot easier.

>>48378760
Standard is the most changing and fluid format though.

>>48378975
I'm thinking of putting this in my pauper burn deck. It just seems a bit too slow for standard though.

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Back to back one foil holy Fuck.

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Hadn't played since BFZ prerelease, went for EM draft today.

Ended up gettin 5 of each in pic. The flesh is weak, the spirit weaker.

>>48404118
you won 25 packs? or bought them

>>48404081
Fuck I'm jelly, the one card I wanted. I opened a box, 7 packs (winnings) and 2 pre-release sets and didn't get one. I ended up buying 2 after trading in my shit (one for EDH and one for Standard).

I did get thalia though. Gorgeous art.

>>48404172
Bought, hence why flesh and spirit are weak. Winner of the EM release draft got 4 boosters at my LGS

I fucking told you guys to order ishkanahs when she was <5

>>48386821
>no six drop
nice curve fagg

>>48404187
>buying packs
The last packs I bought were all the way back in Avacyn Restored, when I bought a booster box. I was hunting for two uncommons (Blood Artist and that flash wolf), and I got one BA and 2 wolves. In an entire box. And the only notable card I pulled was a Griselbrand.

>>48404118
Open and post results.

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>>48404204

>>48404248
I will, after dinner.

>>48404258
Has this card ever worked out for anyone?

I am desperately trying to make a late game deck with this, but it is just so underwhelming.

>>48401021
Breaker also sees RG Tron play.

>>48401026
Tell that to this list faggot
still in the works, but so far pretty well in playtesting.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-prowess-dtk-emn/

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>>48404533
>Contingency Plan
> Zurgo Bellstriker
>No Curious Cutie

Best red draft picks?

>>48404645
Repick

>>48404400
Is great in EDH

>2 pre-releases, 6 packs each
>8 prize packs
>literally nothing of value
>pulled a single mythic, and it's Nahiri's fucking Wrath

Kill me.

>>48404946
Black/Red madness is good in casual I hear.

>>48404946
Nahiri's Wrath will go up. I can almost guarantee it.

>>48404248
"Big things" (over 5 euros on magiccardmarket)
SoI Avacyn flipcards
EM Emrakul
EM Spell Queller

>>48404980
Madness is garbage, even casually. Wizards was too afraid of making it broken again, so we just ended up with a bunch of overcosted or low-power discard outlets and shitty madness cards that are only remotely playable if you madness them all out.

I'd prefer the retarded blue EDH meme enchantment to this useless toothless burn bullshit.

>>48405057
Alms of the Vein? Fiery temper? Asylum visitor? Assembled alphas?

>>48405057
They did make a new Wild Mongrel, though.

Going to FNM tonight as a first timer for Standard Constructed. I'm using a list similar to LSV's pro-tour GB aristocrats deck (with adjustments made).

Any advice or tips?

>>48405383
Quit copying people's decks and make your own shit

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Just opened my booster box, what do you guys think? I am sad I didnt pull an Emrakul.
I went to the prerelease last week and the only interesting things I pulled were a Thalia and a promo Decimator of the Provinces, Managed to get a Tamiyo from one of my two prize packs tho(not shown).

If I'm running UW Spirits, splashing green, how many tamiyos should i use? 2-3?

>>48405943
You literally couldnt ask for better than that

>>48405943
>Lily AND Tamiyo
>Both halves of Brisela and Township
>Ulrich
>Thalia
>Spell Queller

Jesus christ, it's like you opened a christmas present from Wizards.

>>48405383
Take your last draft deck and build on that.

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>>48405943
>>48406007
Jesus Christ, wish I were that lucky

>>48405968
how hard are you splashing? just for tamiyo?

>>48406126
Mostly just tamiyo, permeating mass. Maybe coco, but I only have one copy of that at the moment.

>>48406165
desu i don't think it's that worth it, but i would play 3 tamiyos if you're playing any

>>48406229
Well it would be a small splash - mostly w/g lands or w/u lands. And I'm not sure if coco would even help that much. But I love me some tamiyo and I pulled her at the prerelease, and I think she'd be good. Plus bouncing shit comboed with permeating mass would be nice.

Also, not sure if orchard spirit to get around clip wings would be worth it or not .

>>48399663
>>48400974
This. Maybe Wizards will even give you a box promo for free once they deal with the store

>>48407075
Plus - tamiyo, mausoleum wanderer, selfless spirit - buy now, or wait until next week?

>>48407451
i'm going to say buy after people have opened their boxes but before GP.

Opened a box yesterday
Tamiyo
Emrakul
Racist tree
Golgari guy
Dragon
Spell queller
Eldritch evolution
Foil mausoleum spirit
Everything else 20c-50c
Boxes are $175 here
Even with 5 nkt shit mythics not even close
Wew lad

>>48408174
>just got paid
>can't play mtg for the next two weekends because gf is in town
>want to buy a box so badly
wew

>>48408068
Yeah, I might wait until Monday or Tuesday, for the weekend box buyers to put their shit up. I bought a fat pack, to satiate my gambling addiction and get a holder for my cards, but got jack shit.

>>48408174
Forgot to add i kept tammy for an edh deck and got rid of the rest immediately in puca before prices drop, i can alwats trade back for them when they are half the price they ar now, except eldritch evolution, that thing will destroy modern and the price will skyrocket just before its banned

>>48408329
tammy will go up once PT starts

How do I tweak this with EMN cards
/creatures/
asylum visitor x3
drana, liberator of malakir x3
olivia, mobilized for war x3
incorrigible youths x4
ravenous bloodseeker x3
falkenrath gorger x3
heir of falkenrath x4

/instant/
fiery temper x4
lightning axe x3

/sorcery/
alms of the vein x2
avacyn's judgement x2
tormenting voice x1
exquisite firecraft x2

/land/
4x foreboding ruins
8x mountain
4x smoldering marsh
7x swamp

>>48404400
EDH hero card.

>>48408807
Bloodhall priest

>>48408911
I was thinknig of using stromkirk condemned instead of asylum visitors

>>48382267
I use mythicspoiler and sort by sets. Then go to gatherer for when I need something specific.

>>48408807
The BB stormkirk card - its gonna be good.

>>48388746
Murder

Alternative win cons are good too, so fear of 13 and 13 tree looks to be solid in a mono black deck.

Sucumb to temptation when read the bones rotates out.

geier reach sanitarium is a better sea gate wreckage.

relentless dead is pretty solid against removal/control decks

dead weight

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>>48405943
God damn, son, did you sell your soul for that kind of luck?
That's a good haul.

I'm personally thinking about getting a box myself, but I don't have the cash right now. Hopefully my luck can prevail for once when I actually get it.

>>48409030
Good idea, but card draw would be a smart because BR madness runs the fuck out of cards in a flash

>>48409144
yeah my biggest problem is trying to stick some draw into this

>>48405943
Dude. I wish I got your box.

>>48409197
Insolent neonate, tormenting voice are good triggers for madness and add card draw

My box had a foil Gisela and a couple other cool things. Overall made my money back but just barely

>Had work today
>Missed out on both FNM and my promo Thalia
man, I mean I guess I made enough money to just buy the promo Thalia, but it's not the same.

>>48410815
how much is promo thalia worth?

>>48411534
17$

>>48411534
Sold out on jewcitygames for 20 buckaroos, its upto $25 other places

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Is B/G Aristrocrats still viable in Standard? Any cards from SOI or EMN for Aristrocrats?

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>>48406126
This is how you solve that problem

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>>48402725
kek

>>48411873
I just realized the guy running out the window is one of the guys in the tree

>>48395425
>Noose Constrictor
>"bad"

I don't know what format you are playing, but it isn't the current Standard.

>>48402725
Well I guess we aren't allowed to show guillotines or head chopping references on cards because we might upset French people, too.

That guys articles were always borderline, but I was similarly pissed off at that. Remember, its ok to show other gruesome deaths and horrors, but not hanging! Give me a fucking break.

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Need help guys I went 2-2 tonight here is my deck

4x Descent of the Dragons
2x Planar Outburst
4x Tormenting Voice
2x Nissa's Renewal
2x Nahiri's Wrath
2x Descend upon the Sinful

4x Dragon Tempest
4x Retreat to Emeria
2x Stasis Snare
2x Isolation Zone

4x Battlefield Forge
3x Westvale Abbey
3x Canopy Vista
2x Cinder Glade
2x Game Trail
2x Fortified Village
3x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Plains

2x Mina and Denn, Wild born
2x Archangel Avacyn

4x Secure the Wastes

Basically get tokens out then use Desent upon the Dragons + Dragon Tempest = fucking win ;)

Just won my FNM

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/somebodys-gatewatchin-me/

Can't be assed to grab the deck to remember what the last 4 sideboard cards are.

>>48412095
Cant show white people on positions of power either especially men, GW humans should be banned for suplicating black decks

>>48412201
Lol that's fucking awesome

>>48412201
>347 dollars for a standard deck

>>48412574
I know its awesome, standard is back to kitchen table casual prices instead of modern prices

Hold onto Emrakul or sell now?

>>48412623
Sell its shit, buy one when it drops to $3 in a month when it sees no play in any deck

>>48412123
Guys please help U need feedback how can I make this deck stronger

>>48405977
>>48406007
>>48406077
>>48409231
>>48409140
I am never this lucky ever, so something bad will probably happen to me now.

>>48412123
Should I go creature less ?

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I just decided to get back into Magic so i bought one of those big box packs and a box of boosters. How did I do and what is in with this set? If the card is turned sideways it was a holographic.

>>48379054
2 packs for entry,
2 packs per win.

1st gets 8/10 packs (rounds depending)


Tonight I took 2nd. Walked away with 2 FNM promos, the alt art promo of Identity Thief, 6 packs, and a playmat.


My LGS is a wholesaler as fuck.

$5 for FNM
They order a fuckton of Domino's Pizza for us too.

Packs are only $2.50

MiniatureMarket. They will be at GenCon 2016 if anyone is going.

All chill people, no fedora lords

>>48413800
>foil flayer
neat son

>>48412574
>he doesn't already have all the cards

For anyone else who bought boxes

Are the spirits super hard to come by or am I crazy? I pulled more fucking emrakul and tamiyo then any of the rare spirits.

>>48414064
In a similar vein, is anyone else seeing like twice as many Brunas as Giselas? At my shop's prerelease, I was the only one to get a Gisela at all (was the promo), while like three plus people pulled Bruna. And my pool didn't support white. A pity.

>>48414168
Jizzela has a higher distrobution that regular mythics because its in the flip spot, apparently its 25% more common that the rest of the mythics so sell now before the price gets shit on and they are $5 each

>>48378321
What has been the overall player reaction to the meld mechanic?

>>48414217
>mfw one of the employees got a promo Bruna and wanted both of them for an aristocrats deck
>mfw I'm getting like four packs for her, when my pool was shit

Now all I need to do is figure out when to sell my Eldritch Evolution- now or much later

>>48414247
Surprisingly well after the initial disgust, but horribly if someone had a foil and nonfoil. That shit is disgusting.

>>48414253
Keep it, the price will stay stable for a while then it will win a modern event and to go $20+ before it gets banned

Still waiting on help for this deck ? Creatureless or creatures ? It's supposed to be a dragon deck but I don't know how to fit Dragons in the deck ?

Bant humans without Coco? Don't wanna drop cash on shit that's rotating sooner than later.

>>48400974
Hell, play stores aren't even supposed to buy them for resale from customers for resale (because there's no way of telling if that's what happened or if they're misappropriating their own promos). No matter how they got the ones they're selling, they should NOT be selling them.

>>48404645
Mon-anything is bad in drafts. Go for 2 colors and focus on an archatype in those colors for max value.
Avoid 3 colors as this will strain your mana base. A good few games will be purely decided by how consistent your mana is and putting a 3rd color makes it much harder to get those kind of draws.
Arch-types that are easy to draft due to unpopularity are:
>BG delerium
>BG/GU/BU emerge (you can do BUG but again, very inconsistent due to 3 colors.)
>WU fliers
There are things to build in the other color pairings but these tend to be more popular so don't expect these to be easy drafts. You'll need to open bomb uncommons or rares to really get into something like WG voltron or RB vampires early and get them passed to make them work. Even BU zombies is kind of hard due to their rise in popularity.

>>48413800
>spell queller
>mausoleum wanderer
>selfless spirit
you know what to do
go spirits buddy

>>48413800
>Hanweir the Writhing Township

deeeeply jealous.

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Any thoughts on this card? Personally I really like it and I really wanna pick up a playset

>>48416205
Its a fun card, but I don't like having to rely on myself being low on life to flip it.

I used it in sealed to draw the game when I was about to lose.

>>48416359
How did you lose it to draw the game?!

http://deckstats.net/decks/40652/535292-wr-humans
Rate/10

>>48404946
Nahiri's Wrath is as much of a sleeper as she herself was in the previous set. Cling to it, because it might follow the path of Collected Company and spike to well over 40 bucks.

>>48405118
Alms of the Vein is a great madness card that is unplayable if you can't discard it.

Asylum Visitor is good, but its madness cost is the same as the normal one, so there's no payoff.

Fiery Temper is just a worse bolt and a reprint at that.

>>48404046
I play pauper and I wouldn't put that thing in there. Seems terrible. Also, pauper somehow manages to be more cutthroat than standard, since it has access to things like counterspell and bolt.

Seriously. Standard is the lowest tier format, dude.

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http://deckstats.net/decks/33115/535332-ug-flash

r8 and h8 pls

My meta is basically people playing the best deck from the current Standard.

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Anyone else go 4-0 only losing 1 game using W/R humans at their local FNM yesterday?

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>>48417026
Decklist for ya bois, if your FNM has a load of crusty control players then the gryffs can probably chill in sideboard and you can get bushwhackers/gideons in mainboard perhaps with a couple of needlespires too. If your FNM only has Bant CoCock you could have another stasis snare or a hallowed moonlight if you want to be e x t r a s p i c y

Need help guys I went 2-2 tonight here is my deck

4x Descent of the Dragons
2x Planar Outburst
4x Tormenting Voice
2x Nissa's Renewal
2x Nahiri's Wrath
2x Descend upon the Sinful

4x Dragon Tempest
4x Retreat to Emeria
2x Stasis Snare
2x Isolation Zone

4x Battlefield Forge
3x Westvale Abbey
3x Canopy Vista
2x Cinder Glade
2x Game Trail
2x Fortified Village
3x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Plains

2x Mina and Denn, Wild born
2x Archangel Avacyn

4x Secure the Wastes

Basically get tokens out then use Desent upon the Dragons + Dragon Tempest = fucking win ;)

>>48405943
I didn't buy a box because I got no money, but I bought 16 packs and I've only pulled gold.
>Distended Mindbender x3 (Including a gorgeous foil)
>Selfless Soul x3
>Bruna, the Fading Light (foil)
>Mausoleum Wanderer
>Voldaren Pariah
>Collective Brutality
>Oath of Liliana
>Hanweir Garrison
>Stromkirk Occultist
>Ball Lightning Devils
>Assembled Alphas
>Bedlam Reveller
>Emrakul's Evangel
>Eldritch Evolution
>Spell Queller x2
>Priestess of the Blood Hall

>>48417253

how do you win against bant company/WW?

>>48417074
>red

>>48417257
Oh, also
>Sigarda's Aid
>Deploy the Gatewatch
>Tree of Perdition x2

>>48417311
Didn't play against bant

>>48378321
I got hanweir battlements to constantly pepper the opponent by equipping that shield for +0/+3 and vigilance and the 1/1 tokens.

>>48417340

Then how do you fare against any deck utilizing declaration? It's a single card that folds your entire game plan.

>>48417471
Nobody used a stone lol got lucky

>>48417530

>no languishes
>no declaration
>no bant company

It sounds like you play in a really casual LGS, I kinda envy you.

>>48389421
Whoever made the art for that card needs to be fired.

Any tips for draft? I know how to do sealed, but draft always gets me since I have no idea what takes precedence.

So anyway is there anyway I can get more tokens out or do something better with the deck ?

>>48417257
I didn't Have money either, I ate toast for a week and a half when I preordered the box.

>>48413875
I don't really like my store because I feel like I am getting jewed hard when I buy from them. 120 for a box in standard, everything out is more. 3 for 11 or 6 for 20 deal for standard packs however If you buy a single pack they charge msrp. Friendly group of people to play with tho and a good amount of people.

>>48414168
Bruna is a flip rare
Gisela is a flip mythic

>>48417257
that all sucks pretty bad except EE and Queller

what's gold about it?

>>48417632
its a callback to Mind's Desire

>>48417949
This, but I personally dislike that art

>>48395867
>The stack doesn't just blast out uninterrupted top to bottom as soon as both players pass priority.

It used to do that when the game was created, and I kind of wish it still did because resolving response piles was more straightforward back then (even though a lot of other things were way harder). You didn't have to ponder about sequencing so much because usually there was only one valid point in time where you could cast or activate something. (ie. Counters had to be announced immediately after the spell they counter was announced, waiting to see what else is going to be on stack was not an option)

>>48404400
Legacy Eldrazi has a 1 of that you fetch with a late game Eye of Ugin.

Do you guys think grixis contol will be viable this time around ?
Something like http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/emn-grixis-control/

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>>48378696

>This is the new meta

Welp Time to stop playing magic then.

>>48419503
Just play drafts desufamalamadingdongditchmrakul.

>>48417931

Maus wanderer is pretty rad in u/w spirits.

And distended mindbender is hot in Modern supposedly.

Otherwise, I'd agree, not that gold.

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684KB, 800x1131px

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-wyvern-spirits-emn-edition/

Any thoughts on my shitty spirits deck?

>>48417669

Tips? Well, when you crack your first pack, if you pull a Lili/Tam/Gisa/Gisela... lol, take it, and pass right...

Otherwise, pick within the archetype you're most comfortable with. I usually base my first 2-3 cards around the first rare I got, providing it's something decent. Last night, I pulled, Nibbles, and decided to do some u/g control with spirits, ended up going 1-2, but it was a fun 10 dollar draft.

Got beat out by g/r werewolves, who managed to snag Ulrich and just overwhelmed.

>>48417669
Removal is king, especially in your colours.

Always try to pick solid creatures that advance the board state.

Aggro beats everything else in limited, if you can't help it don't try to be funny and build some shitty control shell unless it's W/B lockdown (which is surprisingly good in this limited) or U/W tempo (which also sucks against best decks that are aggro)

Built a B/R vampires with madness yesterday. It was one of my worst drafts but it was good enough to go 2-1, lost to W/B. My deck wasn't as fast as it could've been in SoI draft, it felt like playing against stax.

>>48417669
Check out Channel Fireball.

Also, don't just raredraft.

>>48417931
That I play UW spirits both here and in Modern. That means that 6 of the packs actually contained what I wanted to get.

I also got someone to exchange me the Voldaren Pariah and Stromkirk Occultist (which now that I look again, is pretty strong if you madness it).

And the rest other than the devils is stuff I wanted anyways.

Also you are nuts if you think Emrakul's Evangel and Bedlam Reveler ain't crazy.

You don't see it yet, but this will be the edition with the highest concentration of playable cards and the most oppressive ones as well as the new Standard develops. SoI was designed to be the base of the post-dragons meta and Eldritch moon brings the power to the table.

>>48420205
PS: Exchange the vampires for Spirits that is.

Quickly, we need a new thread

Anyone got a spicy r/b vampire list?

>>48420205
>Emrakul's Evangel
>creature token
>declaration exists

>>48421545

With EMN Vamps, you might see a decent t2-3 list, probs not t1, as H00mans will be ever powerful. I like some of the juice in EMN though vamp flavour wise.