Do you ever just

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>>48362553
Are you playing with actual retards? I've had some dumb players, but never this fucking stupid.

>>48362553
Me: "I pull out my net and try to catch him and pull him back down, of course!"


it really does annoy me too that so many players think they're stuck with only being able to do one specific thing, or only fight in one narrowly confined style. Come on, you tards.

>>48363013

From what I've seen of the guy he's an okay dude but he's like, got super social anxiety and might also be kind of autistic.

He likes to plan out moves 1 or two turns in advance and when presented with a situation where he needs to do something *now* he just freezes the fuck up and can't register anything.

What I showed was just the most egregious example of his playstyle but in general he just can't seem to come up with any idea on the fly and when he does actually get a plan going the moment you force him to be even a little bit flexible he just turns mopey and stops doing anything until the other party members need to rush in and save his ass.

Example: his cleric thought it'd be a good idea to intimidate the goblin horde by lighting some oil on the ground and trapping them in a circle of fire (well more accurately a corner with some fire around them). Me, remembering a few of them were wizards who had some basic cold spells, responded by having them attempt to put the fire out with ice and... he just fucking froze there and did nothing until the other party members stepped in to shoot at the casters through the fire.

Like, I almost feel like in order to give this guy any amount of time in the spotlight I need to just do exactly what he wants without even a mild amount of struggle or change in tactics.

>>48363235
>it really does annoy me too that so many players think they're stuck with only being able to do one specific thing, or only fight in one narrowly confined style. Come on, you tards.

Oh my god this.
*Wizard flies up*
Waaaaah martials cant do anything they suck!
Dude just pull out a longbow
I don't have one.
Why not?
Because my to-hit with ranged weapons sucks!
So you're just going to sit there with your thumb up your ass all combat instead of at least ATTEMPTING to do some damage?
Yes. And that's why martials are bad!

>>48363459

I mean to be fair a wizard can switch between melee and ranged and relies primarily on Intelligence for both possibilities while a martial relies on Strength for one and Dexterity for ano-

OH NO YOU LE *DON'T*

>>48363476
that's true, but what drives me up the wall are those dipshits that think it is somehow better to just not attack at all, instead of attacking with a penalty. Like somehow they are going to un-hit the opponent or something.

>>48362553


RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


I fucking hate people like that.

For a while, I tried to make microlite20 work.

I offered stunt bonuses and created dynamic situations where they could do heroic shit and stuff.

"I walk up and hit him. *roll die*"

That's all they ever did, because "Without feats and combat maneuvers, there's nothing to do"

>Player insists on playing a hacker-class character in a combat-focused campaign
>Party is fighting an archangel on top of an office building
>Hackerman succeeds in hacking the lighting system
>I ask him what he wants to do with the lights, thinking he might try to summon additional help by flicking them or shining them at the archangel to blind him
>"Turn them on and provide a critical hit bonus."
>Tell him that fluorescent light does not have this effect
>Rest of the party laughs at him
>He gets pouty and surges the grid, blowing all the lights and reducing the party's hit chance
>Jumps off the roof
Why even play?

>DM: The enemy has damage reduction
Rogue: Okay well it's impossible for us to kill it.
---
>DM: The enemy is immune to critical hits.
Rogue: I can't do anything
---
>DM: The enemy damages you a little if you hit it in melee.
Rogue: So it's impossible for us to fight it without dying.
---
>DM: The enemy is heavily armored, you need to roll like a 13 or higher on the die to hit it.
Rogue: So I'm never going to be able to hit it.
---
>DM: Standing up is a move action, so you can't stand up, run over, and still attack.
Rogue: So this turn I do basically nothing.
---
Rogue: I want to do something clever and cool.
>DM: Cool idea, although doing that will provoke an attack of opportunity so you might-
Rogue: Nevermind then I'll just stay still and do a full attack.
---
Rogue: I get an extra attack with two weapons?
>DM: Yes but it's at a penalty.
Rogue: Well that's broken.
---
Rogue: What do you mean improved critical and keen don't stack?
>DM: Well you're already using a shortsword which criticals 2 out of 20 rolls. 4 out of 20 is kind of pushing it, and 8 would be completely nuts.
Rogue: Oh, actually, I'm using a kukri which crits 3 out of 20 normally, 6 out of 20 with keen.
>DM: And crit'ing 12 out of 20, which is more than half the time, seemed reasonable to you?
Rogue: Yes...?
---
Rogue: Am I flanking from this position?
>DM: No you're both on his left side, sorry.
Rogue: Alright well I'm useless.
---
>DM: Roll initiative.
Rogue: 27
Tank: 9
>DM: The rogue goes first.
Rogue: I charge into the room and get behind the enemy so I can flank it with the tank.
>DM: ...okay. The enemy is going to go next.
Tank: Why do you even have improved initiative?
---
Rogue: I hide.
>DM: You're in the middle of the room. There's no cover.
Rogue: Can't I roll stealth?
>DM: You have nothing to hide under, behind, or inside of, and the room is well lit. You also stabbed the enemy like 12 seconds ago.
Rogue: So what's the point of my +17 stealth skill?!

>>48363819

rogue_players.txt

Rogues are always that guy.

>>48363819
>DM: You have nothing to hide under, behind, or inside of, and the room is well lit. You also stabbed the enemy like 12 seconds ago.
If I remember correctly, that's only a -20 or so to stealth, assuming he has a distraction to hide with.

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>>48363476
No, a wizard cannot "switch between melee and ranged". What is happening here is someone has optimized their fighter to do one attack really, really well, and when given a choice between something that gives them some versatility and something that gives them another +2 (effectively), they took the +2.

I could play a character with 12's in every attribute and have a good time. Some players just can't make themselves take the weaker attribute or feat. And when their narrow choices aren't rewarded by an imaginative DM, they turn into special snowflakes at the table.

>>48364339

>No, a wizard cannot "switch between melee and ranged"

You say this then proceed to explain that fighter players are just whiney babies.

Which okay whatever I'll give you but uh your post doesn't support your mission statement very well.

>>48363013
A combination of Anxiety and Apathy will choke the game out of you. I've played with ENTIRE GROUPS that do this shit.
>Is the action risky?
>Nah, won't do it. Not ever. Even if the risk is low, and the rewards high, if I could look like an idiot in front of people, I'd rather not.

>tfw when your players have almost died several times and are desperately struggling by on the skin of their teeth.
>They keep on keeping on.

I'm proud to call them friends.

>>48364402

To be fair, a lot of that can be chalked up to mistrust of the GM.

If the GM isn't willing to bend the rules to protect PCs from rules getting in the way of cool shit on occasion, and will punish you by removing agency(killing your character) for exercising freedom, then many players will go into videogame mode.

You have to actively cultivate a sense of trust and freedom with your players to encourage them to come out of that kind of play.

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>>48364371
You used the term "mission statement" which added to your straightforward manner of answering, so I'll reply to you.

There is a strange class of wizard that is only talked about on gaming forums, and he's called the "Quantum Spellcaster". He has the weird and overpowered ability to have any spell the poster imagines he would need for any given scenario, and he would have it ready at that moment in the game (which he is never in, because he doesn't exist, except in game discussions).

Wizards cast spells, and those spells have ranges. That's it. If the player develops (or builds it) a specific playstyle, I will reward him by letting him feel like a rock star for a while, then challenge him and show him the weakness of his "build". Other players will have to pick up the slack. One example of this is the flying elementalist lightning-slinging caster. Pretty cool. Not so cool in the narrow confines of a dungeon.

Anyhoo, this thread is about dumb players, or the dumb habits they bring to the table. Challenge the players. Egg them on with promises of treasure and fame, then dangle the rewards just out of reach until they
>use their imaginations
>act as a team
>take risks outside of their comfort zones

Have some bewbs.

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>>48364523
Of course, the corollary to this is the versatile caster (which I tend to play). My fireballs don't hit as hard as an evoker. My lack of divination specialization doesn't guarantee me to go first in the round. I don't conjure monsters with +2 to their stats....BUT....I often have some sort of spell ready for MOST situations, providing it hasn't been a long day for our adventurers.

Have some more bewbs.

>>48364520
Very good point, and well said.

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>>48364523

>He has the weird and overpowered ability to have any spell the poster imagines he would need for any given scenario, and he would have it ready at that moment in the game (which he is never in, because he doesn't exist, except in game discussions).

He could past a certain level due to scrolls and the ubiquity of knowledge one possesses. Not to mention the act of restricting spells and giving them out piecemeal only serves to add a layer of tedious balancing and double-checking that few if any DM would be willing to tackle in conjunction with the balancing of monsters and other classes or encounters.

And this isn't even getting into the nitty gritty that you're discussing tracking and monitoring a class with 380 options in the players handbook ALONE and explicitly picking which ones to hand out or building encounters explicitly around them which is just a headache no matter how you slice it.

not to mention said individual can just "drop" that build between downtime and pick up a whole new list of shit they can do for the next adventure which can mean literally changing the gameplan immediately. Unless you assume said character only has spells you explicitly gave them permission to attain in which case congratulations you're some kind of human computer with perfect memory recollection or you just like to keep people on a really short leash.

But that's enough of that...

>>48362553
Unless he has a way to fly up or ground his opponent inside of one round he's probably lost already, why not let him ride it out with some dignity.

>>48363459
I had a rather unimaginative friend once, but when I introduced him to D&D he made a pretty decent Barbarian. He had two hand axes on his belt and a javelin on his back. His main weapon was a hammer he stole, but if something was too far away for him to hulk smash, he also enjoyed trying to pin hobgoblins to walls.

>>48363819
I'm so glad my Rogue wasn't like this. At level 10 they found a wand of spider climb, so I let them use it in their "stealth missions" to often hilarious, sometimes disastrous results.

>Rouge: "So I'm like... 15 feet above him right?"
>Me: "Yeah sure."
>Rogue: "I drop on one, and stab him in the neck. He should also take damage from me falling on him."
>Me: "You take it too, though."
>Rogue: "But he broke my fall!"
>Me: "Bony humans cushioning you? Sure, you're a halfing. I'll take two off the roll though, both ways."
>Rogue.: "Fuck yeah, banzai!"

>>48364520
This is what I was thinking of paraphrasing but you already delivered the concept

I've grown to accept "cool protagonist shit" supersedes "let's be terrified of the GM and avoid provoking an ant hill in his setting"

>>48364592
>>48364996

Let's never forget that it isn't rules, nor worldbuilding, nor playing NPCs that is the primary job of the GM.

It all comes down to creating the right kind of group dynamic that will produce fun.

>>48364523
I think there is a tendency online to exaggerate caster supremacy, but I do think a well-built wizard comes into any situation with significantly more options than most classes. In particular, at higher levels, or when they have time to prepare or investigate this can become a bit glaring.

It doesn't help that there are many spells that are effective in many different circumstances. A fighter can carry a sword & shield combo, a two-handed damage weapon, and a bow, maybe some potions, traps and the like. Each of those fulfills a function, but they are all relatively similar, dealing hp damage or keeping the fighter alive. If the wizard just brings summon monster, create pit, glitterdust, invisibility, resist energy, and haste, he covers a pretty large range of situations. He can protect allies, deal damage, crowd control enemies, negate stealth, buff, all of which are ongoing effects. Those are just second and third level spells.

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>>48364317
Hiding in plain sight is possible if you have modifiers out the arse, but no amount of lying on the floor and pretending to be a wooden plank will make the guy you just stabbed forget about you.

>>48363554
Where did this reee meme come from? No one ever addresses it.

>>48365230

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/reeeeeee

>>48363819
>Cool idea, although doing that will provoke an attack of opportunity so you might-
Why I dislike 3.5e in one line.

>>48362553
I have an entire party of these. When I was running them through their first dungeon there was a mechanical pitfall trap which they narrowly avoided. They had also found the mechanism that closed the pit and knew exactly what would trigger it, so they were quite capable of simply closing it and bypassing it entirely. It quickly devolved into a mess of someone saying they should go forward, being reminded that they can't, applying no effort to continuing on, then someone shouting WHY AREN'T WE MOVING because they chose to complain about all the conversation without actually listening.

They ended up using the monk as a human bridge, which took an impressively higher roll than the meager jump check which even the wizard could've made. While I will say that makes a far more impressive story, I start to wonder if all the evil wizard needs to do is dig enough holes to make them give up.

>>48362553
>Us (me and other PC at simultaneous turn): We grapple the wyvren
>DM: w-what?
>Us: We grapple the wyvren, it's big enough, and we both passed excellently unless you can beat 22 at disadvantage
>DM: (looks on for a few seconds): (fails) It flies up and tries to shake you off
>Us: (slight concern) We pass, and we attack it
>DM: It flies higher and again tries to shake you off
>US: We pass, and attempt animal handling to gain control
>DM: You failed, it flies even higher and tries to shake you off

In the end we succeeded and got to the ground alive, but come the fuck on. Instead of panicking for a turn or two, or trying to in a frenzy attack us, it automatically, as if there's no imminent danger trying to wrestle with it that would possibly make it even more irrational then it's low intelligence would lend it being, flies into the fucking air as straight as an arrow, and does the most optimal thing to kill us? I know you thought Dragon's Dogma was stupid, get over it. Would you prefer we just bash it to death? If we try to scale a colossus from the back would it automatically ball backwards and crush us too? Thanks for rewarding any creativity and fun.

>>48365464

Maybe wild wyverns are commonly broken so the ones that remain untamed learn how to fucking kill any attempt at it?

>>48363394
Your friend sounds like an Aspie, and has what I like to call White Paper fear, he's afraid of making mistakes on a blank canvas, or the unknown, and thus tries to plan something perfect to fit within that space. You need to break him out of that shell of perfect planning, and show him it's okay to do things on the fly, even if things don't go as planned. I might sit down and tell him to stop planning, and just do the first thing that comes to mind, whatever it may be. If he's too nervous to do it in your campaign, maybe take a break and play something more loose, like the Dread system, where it's more in the now and the unknown, and actions are more freeform. Basically, you've gotta be firm but encouraging, and praise him when he does something impulsive, even if it fails for him.

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>>48365464
>playing Dragon's Dogma
>Climb an ogre from behind to start givin it some one two because it worked on the cyclops
>get fucking suplexed
Biggest surprise of any video game ever.

>>48363819
Pretty much why I prefer 5e in a nutshell, but that rogue is also just sort of retarded.

Also how is critting on a 12 OP? It's not like it's still an auto-hit on a 12, sneak attack isn't effected by crits and I doubt the rogue has high static damage (not to mention the things you'd miss out on getting improved crit as a rogue). There's also still ways to get crit insanely high despite that lack of stacking

>>48365483
Besides the general stuff he needs, stuff like that doesn't get fluffed. And even if it was (unlikely, he even told us his methods), 2 vastly different regions/cultures. The second one was even trained as opposed to the wild first, but both reacted exactly the same. He just hates grappling big things and Dragon's Dogma. Simple. It's shit that one of our most fun (and this time not stupid) plays got shot down hard, both times.

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>>48365533
>5e
>standing up is half your movement, so it does nothing and you may as well never trip someone
>I want to do something clever and cool
>You can't/time to invent a rule
>What do you mean I can't boost my critical range, and that it's locked behind one class at a very high level and all the weapons have no differences?
>Am I flanking? Good, it does effectively nothing for anyone not-rogue

>>48365502
Sounds like he needs to meet a player who keeps coming up with bad ideas, then sticking with them because they are perfectly in character.

The kind of person who would have their character jump out of a window if it seems like a good idea. Then, when the GM asks if they remembered to open it first, they have a decent chance of responding with 'no'.

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>>48365530
I once thought it'd be fun to stay in the forest at night. The goblins/hobgoblins never stopped coming until sunrise. In the end, we only moved maybe like, 500 feet from our starting position, the whole way paved with dead goblins.

>>48365464
What? That sounds exactly like what a flying animal would do to get away if you grappled it. Flying is like, the first response.

Especially if you know anything about how birds and shit fight, height = winning.

Not saying that your DM shouldn't have had it frenzy and try to attack you first instead, just that your reasoning for why it should have done that is retarded and gay.

The correct reasoning, is so that the game would be more fun even if it comes at the expense of realism.

Because it sounds like you're kind of a whiny bitch about that sort of thing, and you have to compromise with your players preferences so that everyone has fun.

I personally would be more than okay at playing that with your DM. Especially since it looks like he wasn't actually out to kill you since you eventually succeeded and got to the ground alive.

>>48365574
This is why, as a DM, I lose a little faith in humanity whenever someone decides to 'enforce the rules' in response to me ignoring stupid shit or make something up.

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>>48365630

Literally why don't you just play this.

This is a game built around following basic narrative logic and having that relate to the PC's abilities. There is no "tripping just takes away half your movement action" because why the fuck do you need rules for how many actions you can do in a round just don't be a dick and demand 10 attacks rolls right now asshat.

>>48362553

I can think of a system or two where all of those things are a waste of a turn. Hell, depending on the system and the character you might end up losing more damage output by putting your sword away to draw the bow than if you'd just waited for a useful class to knock it out of the air and hit it next turn with something you're actually able to deal damage with.

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>>48365574
Attacking a tripped person gives advantage to attackers, and tripping something in the air causes it to fall

There's rules for cool shit too, but it's built with generally less restrictive language that doesn't always imply a lack of rules means it needs a feat or some shit

You're talking about a kukri wielded by a rogue. That's like 1d4+2 vs 2d4+4. Pretty minor without dumping all their money into gimmicky weapons. Also since rogues need feats crazy bad it's that much harder to have two weapon fighting, staggering strike, craven, improved initiative, darkstalker, or tons of other better shit

So? Also there are optional flanking rules

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>>48365671
Oh yeah, the mechanic that is used literally everywhere because adding three numbers is hard.
Oh yeah, feats. You get 5 over 20 levels, and they're all pretty boring. And you have to choose between that and attribute bonuses. 5e did a really good job of completely removing character customization. Nice that they made all weapons incredibly samey and made some literally better than others in every way. Also Vancian Casting I'm mad about that too.

>>48365584
Yeah, that's why I suggested the Dread system. It's rules-light, built for Oneshot style play, and pretty much forces players to get into that loose play-style. As the game will almost certainly end with everyone dying, it's a pretty great system to make mistakes in. Though if anyone has a better suggestion for a system like this, I defer to them.

>>48362553
>Player trying to attack flying creatures under the assumption that they can hit them, despite them, you know, flying
>Player attacks a large gang of flying monsters that were minding their own business. He's outnumbered, and genuinely surprised that he's losing
>Player zoning out and going AFK in the middle of the game for long periods of time with no warning
>Other player acts like they're a pro when they know nothing about the game
Sometimes I don't know why I GM for the group

>>48365658
>Literally why don't you just play this.
Honestly,my main reason is that the nature of the central mechanic just sort of bugs at me. I don't even know what it is.
Ironically, despite the classes getting more moves than a typical D&D 3.5 Fighter, it seems like there's less there.
I'm not sure how I can explain it, other than it feels like the game is missing something.

>>48365589
>Especially if you know anything about how birds and shit fight, height = winning.
It's not a bird. It doesn't think like a bird. It's got many more options then a bird diving to insta-kill its prey. Why would flying up be auto-response (twice) if it's not put in situations where that'd develop?

>your reasoning for why it should have done that is retarded and gay
Ah I see, wyvren in fantasy land fight just like birds do in the real world. Of course, silly me.

>more fun even if it comes at the expense of realism
I agree, both my and the other PC and third PC would have enjoyed it more if he let us have some fun. Don't see the realism we're losing though.

>whiny bitch about that sort of thing
Isn't the point of this thread to bring examples of shit that would/did solicit response appropriate for "do you ever just". I'm over it btw, faggot. It's been a while.

>you have to compromise with your players preferences so that everyone has fun
What's the point of this statement you troglodyte? There is no compromise to be had, literally no one needed to lose or gain anything for fun to be had, the GM just need to hold his hate boner for grappling big things (guess he's losing out somehow though huh).
Are you maybe trying to get off by lecturing me?

>I personally would be more than okay at playing that with your DM. Especially since it looks like he wasn't actually out to kill you since you eventually succeeded and got to the ground alive.
That's cool. We are too. He's generally great. Glad you'll never be invited though.

Also ya he was. It's not rocks fall shit. It was death intended to use mechanics which would eventually work against us, and nothing more. Which we avoided by using nothing more then fair mechanics with small chances of success, and a lot of luck. They'd would have been fair deaths, but they'd have been cheap and petty,

>>48364339
The problem is that the curse of meta makes it so that if you don't hyperspecialize, you actually do become a detriment for the party, because the GM just designs encounters expecting everyone to be optimized.

Then you get yelled at for not doing your "job" right.

>>48365870
Only if you have a Shit Group of Optimizers focused on Combat over anything else. Honestly, a creative player playing a Versatile Wizard can have just as much impact on the field as a Glass Cannon build. Sure, you may not be casting the all-powerful Fireball every encounter, buy if you know what you're doing you can be brilliant at Crowd-Control, Tactics, and Field Advantage.

>>48365803
Expounding on this, it's probably why everyone complains about 4e being samey- everything you do is a move, or there's a move for it.
Which leads to funny situations like:
>>I want to shoot the chandelier, dropping it on the enemy.
>Well, you don't have a move that interferes with nearby objects. do you want to Volley or Attack instead?
>>Why can't I shoot the chandelier instead and do damage based on how powerful it is?
>Because if you could, I'd have to make up a move for it and everyone would start using it all the time.

>>48365948
>Only if you have a Shit Group of Optimizers focused on Combat over anything else
AKA people who go into it with the video game mindset. Which happens to be a distressingly large amount of groups out there.

>>48365954

That's not even the biggest sin 4e does.

Its biggest issue is that since everything is POWERS POWERS POWERS, you have to constantly be HITTING with your attacks to have a tangible effect.

I play in a 4e game, and I'm the only character with an 18+ in my actual combat stat, thanks to the GM including houserules that let me use int as my to-hit stat. I am the only character to have an actual effect on combat while everyone else constantly whiffs, because at most, they have a +3 to their attack. I had to build completely around buffing allies' to-hit rolls just so we don't die.

4e is a game in which combats drag on for 2x as long by SIMPLY NOT PUTTING AN 18 IN YOUR KEY STAT.

That's fucking terrible.

>>48363459
Are you seriously suggesting that doing 1d8 damage a turn is contributing meaningfully in a fight?

>>48363013
i have and they do exist. holly fuck.

1 guy just never wanted to learn to play. he ended up breaking the group apart. we all tried our best but holding his hand through the game for over a year was just too much

>>48365988
Once I ran around doing 1d4 damage every turn, with not enough armor to avoid getting hit nor enough health to make me not die the moment something look at me funny.

And I was a motherfucking fighter. And I was FINE with it (except when I got one too many "he's not actually dead"s out of pity).

>>48365984
Wouldn't that go double for Dungeon World, then, because you're limited to a statblock of 16, 15, 13, 12, 9, 8 (+2, +2, +1, +1, -1, -1) and a +1 to hit is doubly important on a scale of 1-12 than on a scale of 1-20?

>>48362553
I haven't ever played with anything quite *THAT* dumb before, though there've been some close ones.

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>>48364520
>punish you by removing agency(killing your character)

You gotta have some stones and roll with the risks if you wanna be cool.

>>48366000
That should be +3/+2/+1/+1/-1/-1.
Dunno how that happened.

>>48365869

Not the guy you're responding to, but he's right, you do sound like a whiny little scrotum complaining over something totally reasonable that didn't even have a poor end-consequence.

Chill out dude.

>>48363459
always carry a sling in every game no matter the setting. modern / future can be fun to lob grenades over city streets

>>48366000
>and a +1 to hit is doubly important on a scale of 1-12 than on a scale of 1-20?
That logic means means that +2 is analogous to +4.

>>48366053
Ya, glad you see it as reasonable. But it really wasn't. And lacking a poor end-consequence doesn't take away from him trying to purposely and quickly kill 2 PCs because they did thing he didn't like from a game. But whatever, we both have rights to differing opinions.

>>48365049
i don't mind rail roading
i don't mind no content
i had a DM who rail roaded through no content
everything had to be his way. broke up our group when he refused to give up his position when 4/5 of the players asked him to leave.

>>48365307
we played a game of mine sweeper for a puzzle room. instead of mines they were just pits with spikes. we tied a rope to 1 guy and he ran across. fell down. we pulled him up before he hit spikes. we just ran across the map and made jump checks after that

>>48366150
>broke up our group when he refused to give up his position when 4/5 of the players asked him to leave.
So instead of those 4 (and maybe the fifth too) just gathering together sans the old gm you all went your separate ways?

>>48366091
Well, I mean, look at it this way.
>+3 to hit means you get a 7+ on a 4+ ( 91.66%) roll, and a 10+ on a 7+ (58.33%) roll
>+2 to hit means you get a 7+ on a 5+ (83.33%) roll and a 10+ on a 8+ (41.66%) roll
>+1 to hit means you get a 7+ on a 6+ ( 72.22%) roll and a 10+ on a 9+ (27.77%) roll
So yeah, the difference between +3 and +2 DW swings between +1/2 (8.33%) and +3 (16.67%) in d20 terms.
The difference between +2 and +1 is (11.11%/+2 d20) and (13.89%/+3 d20), and between +3 and +1 is (19.44%/+4 d20) and (30.56%/+6 d20).
So, funny enough, that's actually pretty accurate.

>>48364402
How the fuck do I deal with paranoid players?
>everything is a trap
>DM describes something for background detail? Better burn it the fuck down before it attacks
>Every NPC is a traitor
>Air wants to choke me

>>48366217
Introduce a player who isn't paranoid.

Let the rest be amazed as that thing ISN'T a trap, that the NPC ISN'T a hired assassin that is going to try and murder them in their sleep, that the air ISN'T there to cause you to suffocate, and maybe they'll leave the background details alone.

>>48365988
>Are you seriously suggesting that doing 1d8 damage a turn is contributing meaningfully in a fight?
If it's a level 6 wizard, then each hit is 1/6 of his health. If you crit, that's half his health in one go. You're probably going to hit because his AC is most likely about 12. If you have a +3-strength bow it gets even better. Yes, you're contributing.

>>48365630
i agree though i have seen the reason that those rules exist in the first place. my DM was shit and made up rules even if it was against what he was doing. he thought hard was bull shit killing the PCs. we all ended up breaking up the group. the rules can be broken if your smart but those rules are supposed to protect the PCs from the DM

>>48366217
Here's a fun fact: People don't seem to wonder so much about whether the room they're entering is secretly filled with poison gas when there's a tiger in the room.
If you can't convince them that a passive threat doesn't exist, make them focus on an active one instead. They may soon equate 'silence' (no immediate threat) with safety, like non-paranoid people do.
>>48366247
I'd like to hope this works, but they may try to prevent him from doing risky things forcefully because it's so ingrained into their minds.

>>48365230
From /r9k/, "robots" make REEEE sound when a man not like them tries to post "hurr i'm different and better than you virgin nerds"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYKPdNvH800

>>48366283
>there's a tiger in the room they come from.
Bleh. Incomplete sentences.

>>48366283
>Here's a fun fact: People don't seem to wonder so much about whether the room they're entering is secretly filled with poison gas when there's a tiger in the room.
It obviously isn't if the tiger is alive. If the tiger is lying there freshly dead with no visible wounds then it's time to worry.

>>48365794
as long as you don't rail road and arn't against having an entire game of no combat role playing then i think you could take over for my group

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>>48366308
I'll give you that one.

>>48365870
played a character who refused to fight saying "violence is not the path of enlightenment". pissed the DM off especially sense he was the only one who wanted to do combat. everyone else wanted to role play not roll play.

>>48366190
long story short it was 2 guys who wanted to just hang out with the DM. the old DM was a real dick and made his "friends" stop comeing

so i guess this conversation has turned into ARE RULES IMPORTANT and CAN PLAYERS HAVE FUN WITHOUT THEM.

>>48366410
more like who can make the rules. the DM or the players or somewhere inbetween

>>48366354
The thing is I was playing an autistic (no really, part of the entire character) honor duelist kobold who was maxed on Dex/Cha, and everyone's idea of rogue was "thief", which was against the whole honor duelist thing.

>>48366410
The rules are important because they act as a focus for creativity.

>>48366452
See I say autistic because internet lingo has shrunken my fucking vocabulary.

Then I figure out that "childish" is far better only AFTER I press post.

>>48365954
>That greentext.

That's not 4e's fault, it GM's for being such a massive faggot with even bigger stick up his ass.

>because at most, they have a +3 to their attack.

Doesn't STR/DEX Modifier applies to hit together with proficiency as well? And how the fuck you got +18 to hit. What level you on?

>>48366247
make a bunch of suicide choristers and send them to there death. especially if you talk to the DM then maby you can work out some compromise. your character dies but he can do some cool stuff and inspire the other PCs

>>48366452
>The rules are important because they act as a focus for creativity.

this can be true but if there used incorrectly you just get "i attack it"

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>Party enters wizard's library
>No rogue; wizard uses their familiar to scout
>Locked door at the far end with several keyholes; a single chest down each row of bookshelves; obviously some are trapped, some contain keys
>Barbarian starts down one row; magic books fly off the shelves and try to attack him but he laughs off the damage, opens the chest, pulls out the key
>Paladin starts down another row; magic books fly off the shelves but he's heavily armored so whatever, opens the chest; actually it's a mimic, grabs him, starts chowing down
>Party minus barbarian rushes to the paladin's aid
>Barbarian gets a bright idea
>Knows which direction the paladin is in, uses strength to knock over the bookshelf next to him which knocks over the next one et cetera like dominoes
>Last bookshelf smashes on top of the mimic...and the entire rest of the party except for the wizard
>Does damage to the mimic but not enough to kill it, also slamming its jaws shut on the paladin's midsection doing even more damage to him

>>48366493
Actually, wait, my bad, thought we were just discussing general player idiocy and not "refusing to do things."

Sorry for the random story dump then.

>>48366470
might just be me but 4e seems kinda boring. not enough diversity. the only feet that seems good is the one that gives a +1 to attacks. might be missing something though.

>>48366483
No amount of freedom will fix that by itself. You need prodding from the GM and other players, AND/OR examples of creative play from your fellows.

That's a result of the curse of the metagame. Meta is a cancer on games of all kinds, an unfortunate byproduct of people who equate "fun" with "win".

>>48366505
>>48366493
It's a pretty fun story, though.

>>48366508
Definitely something is up.

>not enough diversity.

Listen, I will sound like a massive shill about 4e right now. I am self-aware, I am aware that 4e is FAR, FAR from perfect and definitely has some retarded shit.

But claiming it isn't diverse is the utmost bullshit I've ever heard. Everyone can do SOMETHING now, powers are great way to actually diverse shit; the fighter doesn't have to just say "I hit now", all that fluff text for powers is there for a reason; it describes what your character does.

Something is amiss, I am sure. I remember getting like +7 to hit on LEVEL ONE.

Also feats are retarded, I hope your GM let you get a few feats for free at character gen aka tax feat. Because if I have to name one thing that's wrong with 4e, it's gonna be feat bloat.

>>48366544
Its possible to get +10 easy. 20 main stat (+5), +3 prof weapon, +1 from class feature & +1 from feat.
Granted, it works only with martial characters.

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>>48363459

>while this is happening in my head I'm thinking "If I was the player, I'd be like I DRAW MY SWORD AND START RUNNING ALONG THE WALL UP TO HIS ASS AND LEAP BEFORE I LOSE MY FOOTING AND SLICE HIS ASS" *makes roll*

I wish I could be a player instead of forever DM ;_;

>>48366413
The DM...that's literally their entire job at the table...

>>48366544
to clarify on not enough diversity i was referring to everyone has the capability to do a grate sword worth of damage through at will powers.

i cant help but notice that they brought back everything from 3e to 5e that wasn't possibly part of a broken combo. then they nerfed it. now the only classes worth playing are barbarian thief and if your pissed off at the DM a sorcerer with wild magic

>>48365658
Ah, dungeon world fanboys. The only people more annoying than 5e fanboys.

>>48366578
yes although a DM can abuse his power if he feels although its him vs. the PCs. I've had this happen. its also the resin that they added all those rules in 2e. too many people got pissed that the DM wasn't being fair.

>>48364339
Nice Stormwind Fallacy you got there.

>>48364520
>punish you by removing agency(killing your character)

Player agency does not mean freedom from consequences. A player's character dying as a result of their actions does not mean that the player has been robbed of agency or punished.

>>48366413
As the DM I make the rules, but I'll be happy to take suggestions from players. They never make any, though.

>>48366593
Martial/melee/physical powers use weapon damage so no surprise there. I have no clue on others however; I never got the chance to play a caster of sorts.

Don't let players start with military weapons, simpler ones will do the trick for early game.

>>48364523
All you need is one encounter-ending spell targeting each defence, a couple of backups in case of immunities and lucky rolls, something to circumvent spell resistance, and a panic button in case you've run out of spells or miscalculated anything.

No one is unbeatable, but you'll have a hell of a lot more to bring to the table than a fighter.

>>48366707

Anon, nothing you're going to do is going to convince him that there's a power gap. He's either bad at the game or has decided that this is the story he's sticking to. Give it up.

>>48366262
This is wrong for so many reasons.

>>48366759
Good thing you made sure not to mention them.

>>48366644
a lost opportunity. my brief time as a DM everyone liked the fact that i ran a republic stile game and everyone could see my rolls to make sure i wasn't cheating. the fact that they could see the system was fair was enough to please the masses. it truly was rule by law and we completely rewrote the rules. lots more role playing was had. we even made a new system based off of it called the SPITE SYSTEM.
>spite coins are handed out equally (we used cards)
>the number of spite coins everyone gets is 1- the number of players
we had 3-5 players so we each had 2-4 coins
>a coin can be spent to take control of the game as the DM
>once 2/3 of the total number of coins had been spent they are redistributed so that everyone has an equal number again
then some rules we added later to deal with that guys and keep things fun
>if you spend a card you can do at least 1 thing before some one else takes over and you can finish your thing before passing the DM position along
>you can spend a spite coin to interject to change another DMs thing
>you can veto with a spite coin and a vote ensues. majority rules. use to stop magic realm bull

>>48366786
also game works best between 4-6 players and the extremes of a playable game are 3-8

>>48364012
most rogues are bros

they do wacky shit like >>48366573 and make the game more than just a bunch of rolls.

paladins are usually that guy desu.

one pally i played with even tried to deem sneak attacking an evil and dishonorable act that went against his code to spite our rogue.the party ended up telling him he could leave if he didn't like it

>>48365584
>Then, when the GM asks if they remembered to open it first, they have a decent chance of responding with 'no'.
If you are refering to that story of my drunk friend jumping out of a window to stop a thief in that other thread, let me tell you that the GM never had to ask wether he broke the window, my friend apparently did not even intend to open it, and we all just rolled with the fact anyway that he had to spend the night in jail.

>>48366217
Make them enter a dungeon full of mimics. Put a trap around every corner. Ambush them constantly. Have every NPC act shifty.
This won't make them stop being paranoid but at least they'll have a reason to

>>48366638
That's only true if you take active steps against it. The player's character is their interface through which they interact with the game world. If that character dies, the player has lost their ability to interact with the game. They can only watch the game continue on without them, helpless to interact, until such a time as you give them another form of agency within the game (usually another character.)

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>Me: I want to set the building on fire
>Dm: No

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>>48367744
>Level 1 halfling
>attack hill giant head on
>die in one blow
>M-muh agency! GM fiat! This isn't fun, this game sucks!

>>48367824
Pretty much. Having no agency isn't fun. It doesn't really matter why they died, It's no fun to sit in the corner and watch the game continue on without you.

I know you're probably used to seeing the term agency slung around like a piss filled water balloon these days, but sometimes it's good to stop and think about how it applies to your game. How much agency do the players think they have? How much do they really have? When something happens to incapacitate their character, how long do they lose it for? Is loss of agency being used as a punishment? Is it being used unintentionally, say, because a player's character isn't present for the event? How are your players dealing with this loss of agency?

Temporary loss of agency in a game is not always a problem; my players seem to enjoy watching one another's solo segments, for instance. But it depends on the player, and it's a common cause of a rotten game session.

>>48367824
Yes, you should have the hill giant punt the halfling so hard he reaches the clouds and then has adventures in the sky kingdom.

>>48366573
Fucking hell this,

everytime I prepare a fight I make the enemy have a weakness, like a mage who can only cast if he sees the targets eyes or some other shit (example was retarded but still), and I giggle like a little shit making those, and when it's finally rpg friday, literally this:

>ok the mage interestingly casts only the homing fireballs when you're in the same corrid-
>I slash him with my sword

>>48365730
>Nice that they made all weapons incredibly samey and made some literally better than others in every way.

I mean, this is the same in most D&D I played. 4e was probably the best about it by letting characters actually use weapons differently, instead of it only slightly modifying your DPR (and reach, I'll concede that reach is somewhat important in all moderneditions).

>>48367915
>It's no fun to sit in the corner and watch the game continue on without you.
What is: Make a new (hopefully non-retarded) character?

>>48368042
>this is the same in most D&D I played
>ad&d_polearms.jpg
Back in the day, when weapons had not only varying damages and reaches, but also varying speeds and different to-hit vs. specific armour modifiers, what weapon you chose could be a big deal.

>>48365984
>4e is a game in which combats drag on for 2x as long by SIMPLY NOT PUTTING AN 18 IN YOUR KEY STAT.

But... the game literally tells you this. Also, you know, there ARE miss effects... mostly on dailies, but they are there.

There's probably some "never rolls an attack" build out there somewhere.

This thread is simultaneously making want to find a group again and also making me very much not want to find a group again.

RPGs in general seem hard to get right. I liked 5E when I played it though.

>>48368063
>Back in the day, when weapons had not only varying damages and reaches, but also varying speeds and different to-hit vs. specific armour modifiers, what weapon you chose could be a big deal.

Right, I played OD&D (where the weapons were just two short lists for melee and ranged), and 3/4/5. I'll give AD&D a try one day, but didn't have the chance yet.

>>48367915
How much fun is a game where players never suffer consequences for their poorly thought out actions and decisions?

>>48368265
"This is Krieg Vandersog, and this is Jackass!"

>>48368052
That's a good way to reintroduce agency, aye, though it can still be a problem if characters take a long time to make in the system. In those cases it's good to make some backup characters so players can jump back in a bit more quickly.

>>48368265
Oh, there should most definitely be consequences. I'm just saying it's good to keep player agency in mind for those consequences. Remember, the primary goal of a game is for everyone to have fun. Every player probably has their own idea of what that means, but for most of them being able to participate is kind of a key factor.

Loss of agency is an effective punishment but can easily detract from a player's enjoyment of the game. A player waiting for the others to rescue them from prison is rarely having fun. Allowing them to attempt a prison break while they wait would restore that sense of agency, regardless of whether said break succeeds. Death is a bit more problematic and usually requires the player find agency via a different character, which requires jumping through some hoops on the DM's part if not prepared in advance.

Too much agency can be equally problematic, and lead to players feeling bored or lost. While they can impact the game world freely, the lack of consequences or pressure strips meaning from their achievements and makes it harder to find direction. Furthermore, too much agency can allow some players to quash the agency of others, though whether this is a problem, again, depends on your players. Watch for players who are frustrated that someone else is getting to make all the decisions.

>>48362553
Play D&D 5E with newbs
>Anon: "Hey so what does this AC value do exactly?"
>Me: "That's your armor class. It's basically an indicator of how hard it is to injure you. The higher the value, the harder it is to injure you. It's kind of a combination of dodging and simply your armor absorbing blows".
>Anon: "...So like I am better at dodging when I wear plate mail?"
>Me: "No, no. You are just harder to injure. You are still just as good as dodging, but plate mail is really good armor, so most attacks won't harm you through it."
>Anon: "But I want to dodge, not block attacks, this is dumb, what is the difference?"
>Me: "It's an abstraction, ok? You can assign whatever meaning you want to the dice roll when this happens, blocking, dodging, just use your natural armor as an indicator."
>Anon: "But how come they work the same way?"
>Me: "Look, I didn't make this game. This is simply the way they chose to do it, to speed up combat probably."
>Anon: "but that's dumb wahawahwhahh"
>Me: "Sigh... Let's try to play the game, ok? What character will you be?"
>20 minutes later...
>Anon: "What do you mean there is no such thing as dual-wielding katana furry lolis with fedoras? I though this game was all abstract, what the hell does it matter?"
Click roll20 tab, put mouse on 'X' button, never look back.

>>48365869
Fine example of autism, everyone.

DM=>makes new charas for my l5r winter court.
Party=>two hours of making characters.
Me=>make a cool monk story teller/historian.
DM=>everyone get invited to the winter court and the monk who is not a samurai will sit in the peasent quarters.
me=5hours of looking at what other play.
DM=>So anon and what do you want to do in that time?
Me=Explore?
DM=cant your not samurai can't leave quarters without papers.
Me=So maybe earn some koku, interact with other non samurai?
DM=cant peasents are not dragon clan will not talk with you out of fear from their master.
Me=I drink and go to sleep
DM=concluds the first day of RP after another 2 hours. Ask me, so anon will you drive everyone else for the next session an hour eariler?
Me=go out leave everyone at his house.

>>48368839
What exactly happened here? Did the DM believe you made a weeabo naruto sage and tried to give you the cold shoulder?

>>48368839
Ok I understand not rising a fuss during the game (even if that GM is pushing the border on that rule), but why didn't you actually detail your issue with the game after session? And you mostly dicked over the other players, not the GM.

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GMs who make enemies mindless murder machines that have no fear, concept of death, or seem insane with how they act to the pcs murderfucking their group.
For example
>Dm: Ok you succeed in talking the bandits down, they are willing to let you pass if you pay them
PC: wait they want us to pay them?But we've killed over half of them
>Dm: They don't care how many you killed, they want some money before you pass, though not as much as before.
PC: They want us to pay them for us to spare their lives?
>Dm Y-yes
PC: Ok we continue to murder them effortlessly

I just don't get it, no same race, especially humans bandits, will just pointlessly fight to the death of its obvious they are outmatched, did I take crazy pills or something, because this seems like the norm because I feel like it shouldn't.

>>48369031
Videogames.

>>48369057
>>48369031
I'd also suggest the disappearance of the morale rating in 3e D&D helped.

>>48365869
>I'm over it btw
clearly not if you feel the need to argue this hard over it
you're still pretty salty

>>48369031
>GM, DM
well, which is it?

Anyway, this is the result of video games, and low intelligence. He was probably an autist with no understanding of human emotion too. The best way to handle this shit is to try to make the dude understand what the hell he is doing. Backseat DM'ing is neccessary in these cases.

>>48369057
>>48369071
I realize vidya has ruined a generation for DnD(no sarcasm), but it just feels so lazy, fuck even vidya has moral meters where enemies flee after a while.

>>48369085
Oh you, and he is a fine GM, it was a one time thing, which was what made it so jarring for it to happen, the phrase "they want us to pay them to spare them" was something I'd didn't think I'd ever say, and the GM has learnt from it, after the table told him how stupid it was.

>>48363394
I had a similar player at my table once.

Me: So what's your character's name?
>L?
Me: The letter L?
>Yes?

Later on:
Me: So, Craig has been shot and people are fleeing to the exits of the art museum. What does L do?
> . . . Climb?

This player later had a bit of a breakdown at the table because everyone was looking at them, they didn't know what to do, and they felt their social anxiety kick in.

I'm not sure how best to handle players like this, who get analysis paralysis. I don't mention this anecdote to hate on these players though.

>>48365869

Okay, I see now. You have your own particular headcanon for Wyverns and you get upset when someone tries to have them react reasonably, based on other flying predators.

Have you ever seen a bird of prey? You think they don't have other options besides "fly away"?

But they still do, especially when trying to escape, because that's their best option. The instinctive one, because the ones that don't do that die.

Also, they're dumb but still have Int of 6, and are capable of (draconic) speech.

> Wyverns are rather stupid but always aggressive: They attack nearly anything that isn’t obviously more powerful than themselves. A wyvern dives from the air, snatching the opponent with its talons and stinging it to death. A wyvern can slash with its talons only when making a flyby attack.

And there we are, that's how they operate. So you don't know how Wyverns actually are in the rule-book, but you like to talk shit about your DM who has obviously put actual thought into how his monsters would engage in combat.

It does grapple though, buuuuuuut

> Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and stings.

It has to grab you with it's talons first.

So, I'd say "Suck my dick", but you should really do that for your DM who puts up with your whiny shitty attempts to rules lawyer shit without even knowing what the rules are.

> He's generally great. Glad you'll never be invited though.

Unless you're already sucking his dick, I would be less confident about this statement then you appear to be.

>>48368982
The setting of L5R has a very specific caste system and the GM adhered to it far too strictly. What he should have done was make room in his plot that allowed for a monk to get involved.

Besides, monks of the Dragon Clan are effectively more important than the samurai of that clan, so he really screwed the pooch on that one.

>>48369411
>social anxiety
How many fucking people where in the group?

>>48365869
We used bird as an example because that's pretty much some of the only flying creatures in our world m8, for things that can fly, being high up is their advantage, it's universal. What did you want the DM to do?

>>48368591
>Remember, the primary goal of a game is for everyone to have fun.

Ugh

>>48369571
Is that wrong?

>>48369492
Four besides L. It's not necessarily the number of people that can set it off but rather the feeling of being the center of attention, as L later told me.

>>48369614
Seems kinda weird that he would pick a hobby and group where 1/6th of the time he would be the center of attention then... was he doing it to try and get more used to it?

>>48363819
>Rogue: I want to do something clever and cool.
>>DM: Cool idea, although doing that will provoke an attack of opportunity so you might-
>Rogue: Nevermind then I'll just stay still and do a full attack.
This is perfectly valid.

>>48369602
No, it's just that different people find different "fun" things fulfilling.

I mean, it isn't "fun" when my Warlock dies because I decided to try and save the Fighter he was boning despite it going against his "self-serving" policy and I end up dying without saving him, either, but it makes all the times my other characters DO succeed a lot more "fulfilling" which raises my overall enjoyment of the games.

Other people go full Blackleaf if this happens and can't summon up the energy to keep going.

The little bitch niggas.

But yeah, if you want to play with them you have to compromise on that shit. Otherwise you might as well just write tragedy porn fanfiction.

>>48369411

>L

He named his character after the autistic guy in Death Note?


AHA HAHAHA

>>48369629
New player. Since L told me they were a theater person beforehand I asked more of them than I would have a completely new player. Turns out by "theater person" they meant they liked to watch plays, not that they've ever acted before.

>>48369658
I don't think they've even heard of Death Note. They just legitimately couldn't think of a name for a modern day human being.

>Player: I rolled a 12
>DM: That's a miss
>Player: Well you forgot about my bonuses

I'm not going to keep track of all the perks the fucking group has, its bad enough keeping track of enemy spell slots.

>>48365869
Jesus Christ m8, you sound like such a fun guy.

>>48366759
You forgot your smug anime face, senpai

>>48362553
I have a player in 5e who can never remember which dice to roll in fighting, or how to fight in general.

He's a barbarian, he literally does two things, roll a d20 to hit, and roll a d12 for damage.

I just want to shout: "You use TWO dice, only TWO dice, thats ALL you do! Your playing the simplest class in the game!"

Great guy, easily confused though.

>>48370829
I accidentally roll the wrong dice for damage a lot too. I feel bad when I ask a lot 'Which dice do I roll" but I swear that it keeps changing which one I roll.

>>48370923
probably because D&D's design is a bit flawed. Weapons should be categorized a bit better, stronger correlation between size and dice, or name and dice.