Flames of War General: Flaming edition

Since the last thread apparently died, I'll start a new one.

Also, 10 hours left to submit Panzerfunk questions:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NiDdgaqJOSrTlVyik5IVJCaK2wUCdLSIvcPCoNY-IYw/viewform

Still waiting for SNLF list

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Hey. New to FoW. What late russian list am I building here?

>5xT34/76
>5xT34/85 (exchangeable for 76 turret)
>2xIS2
>2xKatuysha
>26xRifle/MG teams
>13xSMG teams
>1xShturmovik
>4xZis2/3
>4x45mm antitank guns
>a bunch of heavy weapons teams; HMGs, different mortars, PTRDs.

I feel like I'm inbetween a strelkovy and tankovy company, don't know where to go next to make it feel coherent and somewhat efficient and fun (I don't want a super competitive lvl.).

>>48319600
>I don't want a super competitive lvl
You're playing Soviets, so there's no danger of that.

You're right that you're basically smack even between strelk and tankovy right now; since yo have maybe one compulsory choice worth of each.

You have a lot of heavy weapons, though, so if you don't mind painting infantry you'd get more use out of what you have gong Strelkovy.

You won't be able to use IS-2s until you have a third, since that's the minimum nit size for them; though you probably would do well not to bother; IS-2s are inefficient for what they cost and are hard to use if you're just starting.

2 katyushas is fine, but make sure you have a way to represent extra crew if you use them; that upgrade is basically a must-buy for them.

ZiS-2s will serve you better than the -3s in this instance. The 45mm guns are cheap and nice for warding off enemy armored cars/halftracks, but will be basically useless against medium or heavy tanks unless you get a flank shot. Their RoF makes them decent at shooting infantry, though. They're good for ambushes or guarding a flank for a low cost.

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>>48319771
Thank you! I'll go for a strelkovy batalon. Worked out a list at 1855. With this, all I need is a couple more infantry teams, a 3-ton-truck and 2 more katuyshas (w/crew).

Is it a better to bunch up the infantry (2x21 companys) rather than spread out (2x14, 1x7), or is that just preference? I'd love to have the Quality of Quantity rule going for a while (being above 15 teams), so I'm leaning against 2x21.

Also, should I put the HMGs in a separate company? Will they just slow down the inf? I have 3, can make company

And the shturmovik is possibly a bad idea, but I love the thing.

>>48320181
1855 is a bit of an odd points level; is that played often where you intend to use this? If not, 1750 or 1650 are far more common points levels.

Personally, i'd go for 2x21,a s that gives you much more survivability.

HMGs are fine with the Infantry units; they won't slow it down at all.

The shturmovik is not a bad idea in an of itself, but getting priority Tip-3M is a massive waste of points. The stronger cannon isn't worth the extra points over the normal IL-2, and it's rare you'll get to use *all* the dice the Priority gives you - limited should be more than enough for most circumstances.

Just make sure to keep your platoon count even; if you need a cheapo unit to even out the count after you've tweaked it, DshK AA trucks are a cheap and useful way of doing that.

>>48319771
>You're playing Soviets, so there's no danger of that.
Git gud.

>>48319771
>You're playing Soviets, so there's no danger of that.
I take it you've never had to dig through a Strelk with any sort of time constraint?

>>48320181
I would try to get some kind of HQ Pioneers, that you can then combat attach to your strelkovies for a bit of anti-tank deterrent. It would be quite possible to simply label a few rifle teams, as long as it's obvious which ones are sappers.

Alright guys so I've moved (again)

anybody know any historical groups in the Murray Kentucky area? If not there, I'm two hours from Nashville and an hour from Paducah, and I wouldnt be against driving an hour or two if I had to to get a game.

If I remember right, Ouchies! lived in Nashville right? It'd be cool to get a game in against him if he still plays.

>>48320181
FoW does offer certainly advantages for bunching up your guys, although there are pros and cons. Assaults, particularly for Soviets, are strongly advantaged by the number of bases in a given platoon, and the sheer size of a Soviet Strelk blob gives a huge advantage to the Soviets, particularly including their special rule that requires a large unit size.

HMG's don't slow down the infantry, although they can be a bit vulnerable on the move. Having them as a seperate platoon can help for reserves games where some of your platoons have to start the game off the board. Having more anti infantry firepower locally avaliable is handy, though, although having the enemy in CC is basically the Soviet win condition, so defensive fire doesn't have the same critical importance it does for other nations.

>>48319600
I can think of a couple, none are quite what/how I'd run, but you've got options.
What were you planning? What point level?
I'd suggest starting out with smaller games (1000 - 1500 pts) so that you can finish them in a reasonable amount of time what with all the rulebook consulting you'll probably have to do.
>>48319771
>You're playing Soviets, so there's no danger of that.
Fite Me

>>48319002

can someone post all questions to the email-group? thanks!

(always better to formulate thought / do a little research.)

>>48323177
Doing that now.

Also, one is completely unreadable and makes no sense at all, I say we should probably skip over that one.

>>48323493

agreed. also, minimal on jokes answer. perfectly honest there.

>>48323493
>he doesn't get it

Im about to move to the Charleston area but despite having The Citadel Academy there, there doesnt seem to be much of a wargame scene short of a GW. Ive got a Citadel graduate buddy of mine interested in Warhammer, and Im hoping he'll be interested in Flames of War. Though it looks like we'd have to order anything online.

>>48325200
>he doesn't get it

No. No I don't.

>>48325220
Order the starter set, see if you enjoy it.

>>48327656
I've got two sets of the Allies half from splitting boxes with a buddy who ended up just sitting on his Germans. Suppose we can try mirror matches but it's bound to be confusing.

>>48327959
Oh. Ok.

Might be worth trying, but mirror matches can get a bit stale after a while.

>>48327959

Great! You guys have a good place to start building a complete list. Check out the Market Garden book for some lists and ideas for support options to bring. At minimum I think you will both want arty for smoke/pinning.

Get some matches in to learn to rules. Maybe start with the Open Fire lists and go on from there.

I found my Open Fire Germans the other day and started putting the StugGs that same evening. It's such a great value for all you get.

>>48327959
>>48329243

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood. PSC has some really good german kits which might be a good place to start for an opposing list.

The friend I split my open fire box with didn't even get to building his Americas, but now that I have Soviets, I am using the Germas as an opposing force.

>>48327656
It's a comment from some YouTube video a while back, old school memes.

Everyone was trying to figure out what the guy asking it meant and we wanted to see your take.

>>48329868
The others explained as much, but I'm still not entirely sure why it's supposed to be funny. *shrug*

>>48327959
You should check out the German starter armies the PSC and Battlefront make. Theyre both good starter armies in the points range of what your open fire allies add up to

>>48331687
That's because you're a newfag, eagles.

>>48331866
Seconding this. Pretty much any of the army box sets you find from either Plastic Soldier Company or Battlefront will be a good deal with some quality miniatures.

>>48332138
If you say so. I've been here for years, but I'm still a 'newfag' for not knowing some shitty meme.

Also, I mistook a video game for an anime earlier. shows you what i know about video games and Japanese animation.

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So question regarding the painting of Soviet Tanks. Would the Rubber Skirts on the sides of the T-72 been painted in the same general scheme as the tank or detached first?

so what does it take to get into this game for the first time? the nearest game store is an hour away, so i gotta get everything in as few trips as possible

>>48333743
Well, you gotta pick a period first, youll probably want to ask wherever youre playing what they tend to play.

Once you have that down, you need the main rulebook and a theatre book for your army. Unless you play Team Yankee, you will use Version 3 rules. If youre not sure what book you want to play, every single book ever released is in the mediafire in the op. You can ask for suggestions here for your period and army or use battlefront's website.

After you've done that, you pick your starting force, buy the models, hobby supplies, and whatever else you need and get to work.

Do you have any idea what period or force you would like to play? Say 1944 American Paratroopers or 1939 Germans panzerkompanie invading Poland?

>>48333743
The open fire set is a great starter, especially if you're playing Germans. You get bread and butter Grenadier companies, AT guns, and StuGs. These can be taken in a wide variety of lists.
For the allies, it's a little wonky since you get American paratroopers and British shermans, which only go together in a few specific forces.

The set comes with the rules, some quick start stuff, some dice, and some 2d terrain.

The models in Open fire are most suited for late war, but you'll still get some mid war use out of some

>>48334012
>Grenadier companies

Shit I meant platoons

>>48333743
Open Fire!
Box of 88s, blister of pioneers, blister of nebs, box of PaK 40s, box of StuGs, blister of mortars, and Grey Wolf.

That should be about 1750, and basically everything you need for a complete German army.

>>48333743
Go through the PDFs in the OP to pick an era (late war is more popular), country, and army type (tank, mechanized infantry, infantry). ideally you find a specific list you like and know what to buy. Any interests?

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>>48333070
Going by a quick Google image search, it looks like they're typically painted the same color as the tank itself.

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>>48337630
And yet I've seen them with the skirts in plain rubber as well.

>>48334089
Most of those are actually really good suggestions for expanding your Germans from the Open Fire starter set.

How do you guys feel about task force A out of the overlord book.

>>48342291

Interesting mix of capabilities. Not sure how automatic attack mixes in with their very defensive load outs.

>>48342291
It is the best TD Company below about 1600 Pts, very fast, aggressive and quite capable. Downside is Trained, so it does take some practice to use well, and AT12 instead of AT13 in Blood, Guts & Glory: however, the latter do pay more.

For higher points level going Vet is probably better.

>>48343886
Trained isn't a problem if you have numbers and/or smoke bombardment (or ammo, in a pinch). Smoke by itself does a lot to improve trained tank or mechanized lists.

>>48344278
I've run into a bit of a conundrum for my planned german list. Which would be better: 4 2cm Flakvierling 38 (RoF 6 AT5 Fp5+) or 3 3.7cm FlaK43 (RoF 4 AT 6 Fp4+)? Reluctant Trained in either case (fucking luftwaffles).

>>48344938

The only real answer is that it depends on the list.

Mathematically, against soft targets, the quads will do better; against lightly protected targets e.g. dug in infantry they will be broadly equivalent (same mean; vierlings have a wider variance, so will excel more but also whiff more); against light armoured targets e.g. halftracks and armoured cars, the 3.7s will just have the edge, as well as being able to threaten side shots on tanks.

Personally, I rate the 3.7, but it depends on the list.

>>48345006
List is King Tigers from Remagen (so, always defends). And the points difference betwee the options can be ignored (I'll be under in either case)

>>48345059

In that case, I'd go with the 3.7s, personally. You'll want to be relying on vehicle MG fire for defensive to keep your Volkssturm safe; the 3.7s will allow you to take on lighter targets while prioritising your big guns for bigger, juicier game.

>>48345086
That and 3.7s are better for shooting down aircraft while still pinned. Which is one of the primary counters to King Tigers.

Heard from my FLGS that Muller is on it's way and will be here this week.

>>48332241

Eagles now you are baiting. It is not like I am proud of you for that baka.

How hard would it be to convert the BF plastic Shermans into Crabs?

>>48345931
I'm just being honest. I don't know anime, and I don't really know video games or PC games.

I play stuff like Starcraft, Command & Conquer, and Civilization.

I couldn't tell you the first thing about any First Person Shooters, sports games, fighting games, or RPGs.

>>48347669
I'd say it can probably be done with minimal effort. Maybe some plastic card for the support arms, a dowel for the rotating piece, and some short lengths of chain hanging down for the flails.

It's certainly worth trying if you have a few Shermans to spare.

>tfw you have a hobby desk of your own for the first time in 3 years

[urrrrrraaaaaaaaa intensifies]

it is beautiful. My engineer sapper army will be ready soon. Cant wait to have a FV infantry force that outnumbers many trained infantry companies.

>Buy Panzer IIIs, Panzer IVs, and Panzer VI, Stuka and bits for cheap.
>Turrets are all still Factory stuck down with Hotglue.

Sometimes I wonder about people.

Pakfront:

"...do not deploy this platoon when you would normally. Instead, it is deployed at the same time as independent teams."

Does this circumvent if you held the paks in reserves?

Grey wolf revised p54 btw

>>48350825
It still counts as one of the platoons you deploy, so if it's in reserve, it's in reserve and not deployed.

>>48352991
lol

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So i've got my first FoW tournament coming up in about a month. It's late war. I've made my list so i'm wondering what you guys think:

1500 Points
Company Command: Panther G
Combat Platoon: 2x Panther G
Combat Platoon: 2x Panther G
Support Platoon: Wespe Platoon(6 Guns, 2 Panzer 3 ops)
Recon Platoon: 3x Panzer II Luchs

It's small but in the test casual games i've played it's done fairly well. The only big issue i've hit are Fireflies ripping my panthers open like tin cans, but i think clever use of cover and sturmtruppen will fix that.

>>48354456
Medium tank hordes will swarm it to death.
Heavy cats will win the firefight against your panthers
Infantry will kill your wespes and then laugh.

You really need more than 5 real tanks in a list, no matter how good the tanks are (and panthers aren't even close to good enough).

>>48354507
I'm currently using Desperate Measures. Should i replace the 2 panthers with 4 hetzers or StuGs instead?

>>48354545
Addendum:

Leaving me with a total of 3 panthers and 4 StuG/Hetzers?

>>48354545
That would definetely be an improvement. Perhaps also replace some of the Wespes (they're cute, but not all that good, especially for their points) with additional tanks. Or go Trained, aim for 6 platoons including something capable of assaulting (generally, infantry or large platoons of tanks with schürzen)

>>48354456
>>48354545
>>48354555
Swapping some of the Panthers (probs one platoon and the HQ) for some mediums that are at least decent in assaults (StuG III G or Panzer IVs) will make that list much more effective.

>>48354570
Also, as said here, going to at least 6 platoons is indeed something you should strive for at 1500 points.
I think that should be viable by dropping a few of the Wespes (or going for cheaper arty), swapping the Panthers and getting some cheap options like AA.

Might work better going Trained, though.

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>>48354593
My local meta is fairly plane dry and the one guy who does bring them brings bombers- which with vet i can space out enough that there's not much use in bombing my tanks.

I don't really follow on the Wespe thing- they seem to lay smoke and waste infantry quite well, what's wrong with them? Forgive my inexperiance.

Would it be worth it to drop the Wespes down to trained in order to pick up more tanks?

>>48354635
>AA
You don't just bring AA to take down aircraft.
They can also threaten infantry and light vehicles, keeping your backfield safe.

Just as importantly, they're a cheap platoon that you can toss into reserve so that you start a battle with most of your points on the table.
In my latest tournament, I brought a pair of Bofors AA guns without transports for that exact reason.

>Wespes
They're not exactly bad, but their set of features makes them pretty expensive for what they do and still a bit vulnerable to light AT vehicles.
That's not a problem if that's where you want to spend your points after covering all of your list-building bases, but there are often essential units you'd want before investing in fancy artillery instead of the basic stuff.

>Wespes to trained
Possibly, though your list might benefit from a platoon of Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers (or similar) as well.
If you end up on defense against certain lists, you simply don't have enough staying power to hang onto multiple objectives.
A solid infantry unit with integrated AT dug in one one objective rather changes that picture.

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>>48354764
>>48354593
New List:

Panzerkompanie(2.) From Devil's Charge

Company Command: 1x Panther G, Pnzer III Recovery

Combats:
4x Panther Gs

Gepantze Panzer Grenadier Platoon in Halftracks with Panzerschrek team(2 Mg teams)

Support:
Wespe Battery(3 Guns) with Pnzr IV OP and Command Staff

Panzerspah Patrol(8-rads with 2cm gun, gonna proxy them for Luchs)

1500 points on the dot

I'm sorry if i'm being a bit obtuse about the tanks thing, i wanna try and run as pure a tank list as i can- though the point about the infantry is a good one.

>>48354933
Swap the Panzergrenadiers for the Aufklärungs because holy shit same points for always attacking

>>48354933
You're still overly heavy on Panthers, meaning you won't have enough shots to handle medium tank hordes.

>>48354933
Also, how large is that PanzerGren platoon? You want full sie or none, german 2/3 strength platoons are rarely strong enough to do diddely squat.

>>48355061
10 shots sitting still 5 on the move isn't enough? How big do medium tank hordes get? 0.o

>>48355102
It's a 2/3 mostly because there's not enough wiggle room pointswise and i only own 3 half tracks anyway.

>>48355151
21, if someone decides to bring the T-34 horde. Or 17 happy americans, with smoke (good luck, you'll get one salvo before they're in your sides).

>>48355206
My best friend who i started the game with actually runs the happy americans list, so i'm used to that and another list that's just a whole bunch of Sherman Recce. The panthers seem to handle it well, i just use terrain and sight blockers the best i can to make sure he's always on my front armour, 21 T-34s does sound like a pain though- are they 85s or 74s?

>>48355206
Or you can get something like what I saw once, which was a soviet Lend lease horde of

1command M4
10 m4
10 m4 76mm
4IS 2
some dinky little armored cars

let me tell you, that is NOT the list you want delayed reserves against when youre playing a Zrinyi company

>>48355302
Goddamn communists and their gangster tactics

>>48355206
I've never come across 17 US Shermans. The points cost would be pretty restrictive at 1500 points or lower.

The most I see, even in larger games is 12 Shermans, and even there it's more typically 10. (2HQ + 2 platoons of 4)

And then add in support options like Armored Rifles, Recon, Tank Destroyers, or Artillery.

>>48354933
That one is from the Digital DLC, right? It is Confident Veteran?

I don't know what kind of support that list can use, but if you can, change that panzer grenadier platoon with some cheaper and bigger foot infantry platoon, or drop the recovery tank.

If you really want to use a lot of Panthers while having some pretty interesting options try a low rating company from Desperate Measures, Blood Gluts and Glory or even Nachtjäger (means Night Hunter)

>>48357269
echoing this. You really need something like trained to make them affordable Panther Bro.

Desperate Measures will give you a lot of tools in the trained panzerkompanie that will allow you to bring lots of Panthers and still have room for support, be that recce, lighter tanks/assault guns, Rocket launchers, air support, etc.

>>48357998
Pretty much, unless you use some kind of weird companie with really cheap core platoons like the Heavy puma recce list someone posted a time ago with 4 or 5 Panthers.

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Made this list, how does it look? I plan on using mortars and loads of 75mm to deal with guns and infantry

>>48358890
That third Sherman in the command group is going to form a platoon with the 2iC. If this is intentional, to get to 9 platoons, leave it as is.

1625 is an odd points level, and you certainly have the room to add more AA MGs if you're aiming for 1650.

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11x Panzer IV's, 9x Panthers, 4x SdKfz 251/D Halftracks, 2x Tiger I's, 47x Panzergrenadiers, including 3x LMG teams, all armed with 1 panzerfausts and/or 1 panzerschreck per platoon (5) and 3 nebwerfers 41 Along with 2 StuGs that I found.

I was thinking about picking up some 222's and running the SS panzerkompanie list from Grey Wolf, but 1750 seems Veeeeery restrictive on how much shit I can run. Anyone get any recs that can make the most out of what I got?

Pic unrelated

>>48355823
That's not a very good list. It lacks septsnaz (which are strictly better than BA-64s when you have to chose between them), has a shit for anything above AT 12, and is relying excessively on tank numbers. Knock out the commander in one of those companies, and that's a shit ton of points sitting around waiting for CiC.

Oh, and it's got IS-2s.

This is effectively the soviet version of a King Tigee list. It looks good... In theory... But in practice it's only good against specific lists in specific missions.

>>48359479
Yes it's intentional, if i didn't do it and i decided to not field the AVREs i would end up with 7 platoons. 1625 late is the new format for the ETC

>>48360331
>>48359479

By coincidence, 1625 is the level I'm using for a local MW event coming up. I couldn't choose between 1600 and 1650, so split the difference.

This, of course, means precisely nothing. But it's not a super-rare points level.

>>48359769
>when your tank assault 2 infantry attacks the enemy tank with top armor 2

>>48360048
Yeah, thats what I thought too will a well balanced Zrinyi II company packing 10 zrinyis, a 10 stand CV pioneer platoon dug in on the sole objective, a pair of tigers, 149mm howitzers, and recce toldis.

Until your pioneers fail their tank terror and run. Then with delayed reserves you only have a platoon of Tigers, 4 zrinyis, and 149mm howitzers to knock 15 shermans off the objective in a single turn.

Make no mistake about it, played correctly that list can crush a more well rounded list. Concentration of force is a real thing and that many tanks in one spot is hard to stop.

I'm also probably forgetting something in the soviet list. Bartosz was there, he might remember

>>48361778
Delayed Reserves, and Confident failing you when you needed it the most, is what killed you. Delayed Reserves on it's own is one of those mission rules that usually means it'll be a tough game for defender, unless you have nothing but shitty chaff to throw in there. Being a tank army that's automatically dumped into defense against that, also sucks. In short, I blame the mission more than the apparent quality of the opponent's list.

I assume that's 1800pts. Based on bare numbers and no upgrades... If I was to throw together an LL Tank list, I'd probably do something more like:
8 76mm M4s
6 75mm M4s
3 ISU-122
4 SU-85
3-stand Spetsnaz
6 gun battery of 120mm Hvy Mortars + observer

1795. Anything more would go towards escorts, .50cals, upping the SU-85s to 85Ms, and/or increasing the ISUs to 4-strong. An alternative would be to swap the ISUs for 4 SU-122s, SU-85M upgrade, and all the escorts/.50cals I can buy...

>>48362764
It was something like 1750 or 1850, cant remember which.

It wasnt just me he browbeat though, if I remember right he won.

All I'm saying is try playing against that list sometime as a defender, its harder than it looks. It's one thing to sit here and say its a terrible list and an entirely different one to have to stare it down across the table.

>>48364309
If I remember right he won *the tourney*

sorry not sure why that cut off there of all places.

All I know is its made me super paranoid with list building now, at least when it comes to AT capability.

How are cromwell companies?

>>48366811
Fast.

So question, how much armour would a P1000 Ratte have in terms of Flames of War?

>>48367611
Too much

>>48366852
>>48367663
Helpful. Really helpful. <\sarcasm>

I have no experience with Cromwell Companies, so I can't really help you there.

As for the Ratte, it was a literal Land Battleship. So I would imagine it would be armored like a battleship.

>>48367611
It was apparently meant too have up too 360mm of armour. Whats the thickest armour that has stats in FoW?

>>48368131
The Jagdtiger's max frontal armour is 250mm and is rated as 16. Which makes it straight up immune to the 88 Kwk 43.

>>48368212
360mm of armor makes it straight up immune to most Battleship guns; It's 14 fucking inches thick.

Anyone else looking at the Leopard week at Beasts of War?

They've done some pretty nice things there, like a blog about quickly but effectively painting a West German army.
Today, they posted a bunch of brainstorming about making an Iceland campaign based on Red Storm Rising.

>>48368471
I'm a few episodes behind, I saw their first 3 or 4 videos on Leopard.

Decent quality stuff with good input from Phill.

>>48361778
Hungariboo, we both know that on-paper is a whole different run than actually playing the game.

the Soviet list was a tank horde, and that means you have to roll AP rolls of 3+ at long range...so, those T-34's or Emchas are essentially space marines...and your 24" range meant you coudn't start the winnowing sooner.

and this is something you see ALL THE TIME on 4chan's /fowtg/ ...disregarding the value of huge units in one place with 12" move...if you can think of something that -reliably- stops 10 T-34's in 2 turns (they get their good armor saves vs. AP 10 or 11, depending, btw) while they just swarm at an objective like roaches....please tell me. confident pioneers / bazookas are not always the answer either...i've seen those die to a 7 T-34 assault before...


(no plan survives contact with the enemy, they say)

For a cromwell list, should I go with two platoons of 4x 25pdrs, or one platoon of 4x 25pdrs and one platoon of 2x 5.5"s?

Also, where the hell can I get 5.5"s online? I can't find them in stock anywhere.

>>48368989
>if you can think of something that -reliably- stops 10 T-34's in 2 turns
Hilariously, IS-85s do the job admirably.

I've also found Churchill IV (late)s with 6pdrs do an admirable job of the matter, despite "only" being AT11 - the salient point being they have the sheer RoF to really go to town on the T-34s, and like the IS-85s, can survive return fire from the T-34s/Emchas very reliably.

One other thing that works, but is a bit more defensive-minded is nations that get large AT gun platoons - the 6x6pdr platoons the Brits get, full-strength 4-gun PaK40 platoons, Romanian AT Companies (I don't care if PaK38s are only AT9, you get 9 of them! 27 Shots! Play the odds!), and so on.

(Important not to forget that ATGs do wonders with defensive fire and can shoot at side armour in assaults, in that instance)

>>48369190
Challenger A30s are good at it, as well. Each one can reliably kill 2 T-34s from long range, often times without having to worru about return fire due to concealed and veteran.

>>48368989
My experience is that the big unit is more of a problem than help; it's really hard to get cover, really hard to fit them through terrain, and really easy to pick them all out one-by-one.

Conversely, their shots aren't so good, with H&C and maybe only AT 9. They're definitely not so hot against heavy tank lists, which can just sit on the objective, especially if you're forced into defence and have to have half the platoons off the board.

I've said before, but Centralised Command is the real weakness of most soviet forces.

>>48368989
>and this is something you see ALL THE TIME on 4chan's /fowtg/ ...disregarding the value of huge units in one place with 12" move...if you can think of something that -reliably- stops 10 T-34's in 2 turns (they get their good armor saves vs. AP 10 or 11, depending, btw) while they just swarm at an objective like roaches....please tell me. confident pioneers / bazookas are not always the answer either...i've seen those die to a 7 T-34 assault before...

Choke points and terrain, for starters.

As a soviet tank player, I don't disregard the value of a large unit in one place. But rather I recognize it for the colossal mess it is. If the table is a barren wasteland with two wood featurs, maybe a hill, and a road, then yeah a platoon of 10 tanks will do well. The tournaments with tables like that are fucking dumb, btw. The problem however is even a moderately dense table with a single feature for every 2'x2' square will make running 10 tanks a clusterfuck. Rarely (if ever) will they be able to make use of their weight of fire, and more often than not they'll be a nice, fat target for artillery. I've seen more than a few aspiring "feeld all thuh tonks, hurr" Soviet players cram all their tanks into a position to fire as much as possible (usually ends up 6 to 8 shots), only for their US/Brit opponent to turn half of them into wrecks before they can do so without penalties. German not so much... They tend to just smoke them with rockets and force them to keep moving.

Point is, 10 tanks is a monstrous footprint that is impossible to hide effectively, and seemd to never bring it's full numbers to bear. In my experience It's been better to run smaller formations of 6 or 8 that are preferably Fearless, as it affords greater maneuverability, while being less of a clusterfuck to deal with. It also affords support units that provide alternative (often times better) ways of dealing with potential problems.

>>48369884
I don't think Centralized Command is a weakness per say... Look at the travesty that is the Hero lists, they have it in name only. The real problem is players (especially new ones) think that the biggest unit size is the best to field. There is truth in the theory that a minimum size formation (for soviets) will get minumum results; for example a strelk platoon of 8 stands isn't going to do jack shit. But there is also the very real problem of a unit being so fucking large that it causes problems... Like a max size strelk company with all the attachments added to it. Maximum tank spam, is like that stupid-huge strelk company. It looks great on paper, but in practicr it's a logistical headache.

>>48364309
>All I'm saying is try playing against that list sometime as a defender
I have. Its rough for some missions, with some lists. Especially if the table has large swathes of clear space or rolling hills.

Again, a tonk-spom list can be exceptionally rough for lists that are stuck with Delayed Reserves in a defensive mission. They can also be excercise in target priority for many lists, when the mission and table aren't directly working against them. It's particularly fun to watch them try to play "chase the objective" in Fighting Withdrawal.

>>48370031
Strelk can get away with a lot easier since they can just dig-in and get concealment from everything. Trying to hide ten tanks in a way that leaves no openings is nigh-impossible; you will always be hit on 3s, 4s if long range. Plus, strelk are usually built to be on the defence.

>>48318993
Am I mistaken or are the helicopters too big in team yankee compared to the tanks?

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>>48371109
pic for reference

>>48371109
No, aircraft are huge and helis are 1/100 the same as the tanks. They are impractically huge for gameplay, though, yes.

>>48371109
They are actually at the same scale. I think it looks big because we're used to the smaller scale of the planes.

Though seeing the Hind at the same scale as a tank helps makes it clear how beastly it is.

>>48370440
That is true. But a max size strelk company will be sprawled out all over the fucking place, and can't be hidden worth shit like the tanks. The biggest issue in my findings, is they *WILL* be the target of almost every bombardment, spending the entire game having to unpin. While digging them in will help their survivability, it mostly only helps against the lighter bombardments. I think my record is something like 7 stands killed in one double-wide Heavy Mortar bombardment. In that game, those mortars pulled some serious MVP status by wiping out most of that company.

>>48371559
Sure, but you still have to actually assault them.

>>48371654
Oh sure, if that's the objective you're going towards. In MW, they die even faster, despite being Fearless. In LW, they're Confident and relying on the Comissar.

Interestingly enough, in that game my KV-8s mopped up the remainder of the mess. Strelk don't do very well against flame tanks that then assault and tell them to reroll their hits vs TA 2.

>>48371109
The helicopters are the same scale as the tanks, 1/100.

That being said, the Cobras and the BO-105s look like they're the right size compared to the tanks.

The Hinds on the other hand, look fuckhuge. Because Hinds really are that fuckhuge in real life compared to the tanks and other vehicles they're fighting alongside.

Seriously, if it wasn't for the engines and rotors, you could probably fit some of these other helicopters inside a Hind.

>>48369190
most pak40 platoons max at 3, I thought

>>48357269
Yes, Confident vet.
>>48357998
The first list i posted was the panther heavy desperate measures list. I'm drawn to this one because it fills the things i wanted(Panthers, Recce, Armoured Arty) with the added bonus of a bunch of angry germans with mg42s in halftracks to take objectives for me. And always attacking.

>>48357998
As above.

I'm gonna test the list soonish against a buddy, see how it does- he likes to run a sherman and firefly heavy list with a little bit of british infantry. I might also get some wiggle room because there's been discussion of making the tournament 1650 instead of 1500.

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Finally got a day with less than 55% humidity. I no longer have a plastic coloured horde of cromwells, I now have a PSC british armor colored horde of cromwells.

>>48372370
3 is enough to stall an assault, though. Especially if you put them in concealment, an inch behind tree line, and have the infantry right in front. They basically will have to assault and deal with defensive fire, as they otherwise can't shoot the Pak40s without going around to remove them.

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>>48366811
Fast and very dependent on smart usage. Sherman hordes, you have more tanks to compensate for the FA 6. Cromwells you need to focus more on positioning. Always bring smoke arty with an AOP, avoid the CS tanks unless you need one extra platoon or are playing 11th armored with a massive Luttrell horde, and Challengers. Challengers everywhere you can fit them. They just straight up murder tanks. Smoke the enemy to isolate them, concentrate your forces to kill them (you move 16", this should be the easy part), and remember that you're fast enough to feint that you're going for one objective at the start when you're really going for another.

More in depth per-list thing:
>Overlord: Desert Rats Armored and Armored Recce
The Desert Rats list is RV, has integrated fireflies/challengers, and can get a Breching Group to give them Always Attack. The Armored Recce (coming in Guards and generic flavors) list is CT and has no fancy options (or challengers) except that the cromwell platoons can Disengage and have Cautious Movement. Both have a bit more varied options on infantry and armored car support than the later lists, though the artillery is generally trained. Desert Rats is easily the better list, and used to be one of the top lists in the game back in V2.

>Market Garden: Guards Armored Recce and 11th Armored Recce
The two lists are almost identical. Both have basic Cromwell platoons with the option for a Challenger for AT work, and the support options are the same (and all CV, for both lists). Your support tanks can slap on Duckbills (wide tracks but slow tank), and your lorried infantry get a +3 save when riding on your tanks instead of the normal 5+. You can also get some American paratrooper support. The big differences are in the Recce options, Column Platoon, Luttrell's Platoon, if you've got the Guards re-roll, and the veterancy of your combat and weapons platoons.

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>>48372936
>Market Garden cont...
For the Guards, your combat and weapons platoons are CV, and you re-roll company and platoon morale tests for those platoons (Combat, Weapons, and Brigade) that are Guards. You also get the Column platoon, which is an amazingly flexible platoon that you can choose to be Universal Carriers, 3" Mortars, or 6pdr guns when you deploy. You have Stuarts, UCs, and the Houshold Cav (armored cars that can disengage after shooting) for recce.

For the 11th armored (which is the 15th/19th Hussars), your combat and weapons platoons are CT. You can get Luttrell's Platoon, which is a platoon of 2-6 nicely cheap Cromwell CS tanks with a warrior who lets them re-roll the first range in attempt and re-roll tests to unbog within 6" of him. You have Stuart Jalopies, Universal Carriers, Dingoes/Humbers, and the Inns of Court (armored cars that re-roll failed Disengage tests) for recce.

Neither of the Market Garden lists is outright better than the other. 11th Armored you have more firepower and tanks on the table because you're cheaper, but the Guards are more reliable and flexible (if you DON'T take the Column Platoon with them, you're an idiot). Both are quite usable.

>Nachtjager
Only one Cromwell list here: B Squadron, 15th/19th Hussars. Everything is CV, and you lose some listbuilding options from the MG version (Luttrell is gone, as are the Inns, Motor/Pioneer infantry, Heavy Mortars, and Stuarts). However, you can now get Wasps to burn everything, and your Cromwells and Challengers have been split into their own platoons. This gives you some flexibility with your smoke, since you can now fire the Challenger platoon then use the Cromwell platoons for DFS the enemy. It's not hard to make an army that can be both this and the MG version of the list. You've still got the nice Lorried Rifle infantry and duckbill-optioned support.

Overall, pretty much all of them except the Armored Recce list from Overlord are usable.

>>48372936
Isn't the 11th Armoured list in Market Garden Trained instead of Veteran, but still with Veteran support options?

>>48373018
Yes, which I personally find a nice balance. You generally care more about arty and infantry being veteran, while tanks can get away with trained. Having the mix makes your tanks nice and cheap, while your artillery and infantry are the better veterans.

>>48372895
oh for sure, they're great and even 3 is a huge deterrent.

What lists can get 4? I love me some paks

>>48372731
Very nice!

I'm waiting on similar conditions so I can spray-prime my US forces for Team Yankee.

>>48373228
Most lists can take 4x PaK40 in a Divisional ATG Platoon, but you often sacrifice your second tank slot to get them. 59. and 85. Grenadier in Bridge by Bridge can take a Div ATG Plt of four, and since they have no second armour slot it makes sense to take it. Other list, like most infantry in Grey Wolf, would have to choose between Div ATGs or second armoured unit (e.g. Marders, tank-hunters, etc..

Walkure can get 4 as a weapons Platoon, but CT. I'm sure there are a few I'm forgetting...also, FJ can take four as a weapons platoon which is nice.

>>48373228
Sturmkompanie?
2 platoons of 3 Pak each plus 1 platoon with 2 Paks that can be combat attachment to your core platoons to total of 8 Paks with Pakfront rule.

The only problem with the list is that it is pretty poor regarding tanks support, you can only get a platoon of Tigers I and a Stug platoon or Tank hunter platoon.

Though the Stug platoon is pretty good, free upgrade for 1 Stuh plus begleits tank scorts.

How is the SS panzerkompanie from Grey Wolf? I'm thinking about a tank list and I sure do like this but Germans cost a lot of points. Thinking about going for 1850 pts

>>48375946
The point costs are high enough to really hurt, especially if you use Panthers because they're as fragile as most medium tanks in assaults, but cost as much as some heavies. They're a waste unless you're shooting at high-armor targets. Making the list work requires a lot of non-tank support, imo.

If you really want to go tank-heavy, I'd look at Desperate Measures for a lower-rated company (and more variety).

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checking a thing

>>48372731
I think the painted Brits are ready to have another go at those damn Communists. Their paint job should help them deflect the AT gun shells.

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>>48378695
Well, I don't know about ruskies, but against Krauts... 7 penetrating hits. 6 failed firepower tests. SCC15 2stronk for Germany.

>>48375184
No you silly person, I have a stumkompanie. I was asking about 4 in a single platoon

>>48380388
Meanwhile on the other flank, crazy shit was going down.

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>>48380388
>>48381881
Time for a full batrep. Forces were two quickly slapped together german companies (Grey Wolf Panzer and SS Panzer) vs MG brits and DM germans (11th armored recce and Panzer Ausbildungs Verband). Mission was the classic Free-For-All. Deployment pretty much decided that the middle objective was nonviable for the SS and StuGs, with a full platoon of panzerfaust infantry with 25pdr support threatening hot death to any tanks that tried to take it. Meanwhile, the mixed forces quickly hit upon the brilliant plan of "Spam Cromwells at the south objective while the Panthers and StuGs hold the north". Interestingly, while both panzer companies were pure vet, both of the "allied" forces had trained tanks but vet support.

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>>48382041
Forgot to get a pic at several points, generally only remembering at the start of our turn. Panzerforce won the first turn roll, so a lot of these pictures are from the dead middle of the turn.

Turn 1 is uneventful, with the brits and StuGs positioning in the south (nothing comes of it save some very temporary bails), and some exchange of fire in the north. Smoke is fired, and a normal bombardment misses wildly.

German turn 2 smarts, though. The first batch of newly trained StuGs is smashed by the advancing Panzer IVs. Smoke prevents the Tigers from murdering stuff, but the StuGs manage 7 hits (none of which are saved). In an amazing show of the protective capability of a new coat of paint, only one of the 7 3+ firepower tests is passed, leaving the brits with a lot of bailed tanks but no dead. The north StuGs flee, but in the south 3rd Troop holds on despite nobody actually being intact.

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>>48382156
Our turn 2 goes well, with the cromwells of 2nd and 3rd Troops hitting a StuG platoon in the flank, killing and bailing them all and causing a rout. The Challenger crews decide that a bailed tank is a good excuse for tea time, and refuse to get back in. In the north a few Panzer IVs are killed, and some are ranged in on by one of the 25pdr troops.

German turn 3, they continue the advance. The Tigers move to intercept the cromwells now threatening the objective...

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>>48382245
...But they only hit with one shot, as do the surviving StuGs. Up north, armor saves and missed shots prevent any more loss of new tankers. Noticing a chance to isolate and destroy the remaining StuGs with the Tigers out of the picture, the Cromwells fall back and engage from the flank and front. Up north, the Panthers mostly miss and the StuGs pull back... But a repeated bombardment from the 25pdrs manages to kill two Panzer IVs and bail a third, despite 5+ firepower.

The start of turn 4 has the Tigers re-redeploying to counter the cromwells in their new position (protip, if you haven't faced cromwells: Their position is always fleeting, and exactly where you don't want it). The StuGs try to remount but fail. and in the north some advances are made...

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>>48382341
Turn 4 is unfortunately not directly captured, but to sumarize: Germans wiff a lot in the south, bailing a cromwell with the 2iC and otherwise missing. In the north, some panthers get bailed but they shrug it off. Allied turn 4 is the turning point, with another StuG killed in the south causing the second StuG platoon to turn tail, leaving the panzer companie needing to take company morale tests. Another 25pdr bombardment manages to kill a Panzer IV in the north, which officially makes this the best they've ever done at killing anything. The Panthers pop another, just to remind everyone that tanks can kill panzer IVs as well.

Start of German turn 5, the southern panzers decide the might of the British empire is too much for them, and flee the field. This leaves the southern objective completely undefended, and three platoons of cromwells to capture it. Knowing they've lost unless they can shove all the northern germans off the objective, the SS charge in and blow up another StuG. However, that's too little, too late. They physically cannot take the objective before the cromwells will win the game at the start of allied turn 6.

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>>48382453
Postgame analysis:
We got really lucky with those firepower checks on the second turn. If those had been even remotely normal, the cromwells would have been devestated. But ignoring the effects of luck, and focusing on my end:
>Odd platoon counts killed the Panzer company.
2 of 3 platoons dead, and it's a 50% chance to stay behind. Only 5 StuGs out of his force were actually killed, with two bailed, but that was enough to send the remaining StuGs and Tigers running.
>StuGs do not want to engage in melee with Cromwells
I don't know how the local germans haven't gotten this by now, but if you are at 14" range or less I AM going to get in your side armor next turn with my cromwells. And side 3 means no saves.
>Cromwells should have been more cautious
Yes, they only lost 4 tanks, but if my opponent hadn't rolled horribly things would have been very different. I should have made heavier use of cover, or at least fired smoke during my initial advance instead of trying for lucky hits with AT 10. 1st Troop spending the game in the open when those comfy trees were right there really sticks in my mind...
>Aggressive use of CiC is important
It's another tank, and one that lets you re-roll morale. When you're paying 95 points for that command tank and you have a 2iC backup, have the 2iC sit in the back and use the CiC aggressively. He dies, you still have the 2iC. And if not, you've got another gun and some very useful re-rolls. Failure to use his CiC cost the Panzers some very important morale rolls...
>Tigers are only useful if you commit
Having a pair of 215 point tanks waffle between two areas and kill exactly one (70 point) tank in the whole game is a huge waste of points. Slow Tank means pick your area of advance and stick with it.
>Smoke is god
I think everyone knows this, but DFS on the StuGs in the fields killed their ability to return fire, and the constant smoke on the Tigers forced them to keep moving.

>>48382245
>The Challenger crews decide that a bailed tank is a good excuse for tea time

Very important, you know.

>>48382643
Cheers for the report, anon. On a related note, you mention smoke: how important is this in a typical game? Pure, unfiltered noob asking.

Is it just me or is the 500 ausbildungs or however you spell it much worse than the RT always-defend king tigers?

>>48383712
Firing smoke at the enemy makes it harder for them to see your forces.

This is a very useful tool.

>>48385444
You pay 15 more points to drop a point of armour because they're Porsche King Tigers, become Confident, gain Unreliable, lose Stormtrooper, Mission Tactics, and Always Defend.

>>48385508
Oh and your support is vastly worse. You've got two infantry platoons and Eighty Eights, as opposed to the actually useful stuff that B@R gets you.

>>48385531
Yeah, this was the main thing that made me double-take. Some lists lack smoke or recce, but lacking artillery altogether is somewhat gratuitously worse.

>>48381797
Then sorry senpai. Lists i remember that can take their own 4xPaks in a single platoon that this anon >>48373400 didn't say:

Sperrverband, Marine-grenadierkompanie, Gebirsjagers and Berlin

>>48386720
Neat, thanks

I've been looking to get into FoW, and seeing as I've always been fond of the Luftwaffe and airplanes, I thought it might be fun to play an airplane-heavy force. So, I was wondering - are there any German lists that have a *lot* of air support available?

>>48387210
Not really but we do get dopeass jets.

Play some Fallschmirjager!

>>48387210
You get one air support slot per list. If there are any exceptions I can't remember.

Speaking of planes, what lists get the Arado? Is it only the heavy tank lists in B@R?

>>48387249
Nachtjager lists as well

>>48387231
Or a fallschirmpanzerdivision.

>>48387261
Or a luftfallschirmpanzergrenadierdivison

>>48387260
Are there any normal panzer lists in NJ? Or just night vision nonsense?

>>48387306
'Night vision nonsense' is all optional upgrades.

>>48387278
Is that even real?

>>48387442
Anything is real if you truly believe, friend

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>>48387442
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier_Division_2_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

>>48387467
Goddamn, and i thought i was making it up

>>48387442
Apparently it is see >>48387467

>>48387467
That's a mouthful if ever I heard one.

>>48387480
whatplayinggermanislike.jpg

>>48387442
It's real in that the German language has a thing (I forget if there's a term for it) for allowing the stringing together of words to create a single large, composite word. It's less that it's one super duper long word and more than you just take the spaces out between some words to show that its a single concept. I think. IF anyone here speaks German, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

>>48387442

It translates to Parachute Armoured Grenadiers Division. Not really a strange concept, but the WORD can be a single word rather than 4 seperate ones.

>>48387752
Paratroopers having an armoured -division- is a little comical, but that's WW2 germany.

>>48387752

How do you make an armoured grenadier parachute division, though?

>>48387794

Same way the British did in Market Garden. You parachute down light vehicles. The Soviets did a lot of that sort of thing in the Cold War. Their parachute divisions could hypothetically land on the ground with SPGs and IFVs ready to go.

The Germany military still has Weasels, and they're hypothetically air droppable.

Either way, lack of armour and heavy guns are a traditional weakness of parachute deployments, and any efforts to remedy that imbalance can pay off big time.

>>48387869
Yes, this involves giving parachute divisions armoured vehicles, and setting up platoons, companies, and maybe even brigades of IFVs. The idea of an armoured airtroop -division- is farcial, and indeed they never fought in the manner you specified; they were the luftwaffe's ground-pounders, because nazi germany was a mess of redundant command structures at each other's necks.

>>48387617
I forget the name for it also, but you're basically correct.

The German language lets you combine words that represent a single concept.

So instead of "anti-aircraft cannon" it would be "antiaircraftcannon".

I think the longest single-word in German is the name of a very specific tax law.

>>48388022

The Soviets certainly had division worth of them of them, although the specific organisation varied a lot, being more typically organised on the Brigade and regimental level.

>>48388193
Yes, exactly; in these things, organisation matters. A brigade set up to support paratroopers is one thing, their own independent division is a nonsensical thing when the actual army panzerdivision exists and should be available to support them. Of course, in Germany they weren't, but this is because Germany was a leadership shitshow.

>>48388384

Hardly support paratroopers, the paratroopers were meant to drop in inside their vehicles.
Why is a division so much less sensible than an armoured parachute infantry brigade? It's a question of concentration, not total guys.

>>48388413
Ignoring anything else, what do paratroopers want with panthers?

>>48388742

Ignoring anything else, the same thing that Panzer divisions want with them. A damn fine tank that's a match for any opponent. It's bulletproof, has a decent gun for infantry support, and an excellent AP round. Your infantry don't have to get by with PIATs and Panzerschrek.

So, are any of the Luftwaffe lists worth a damn, or is it better to just go for the Fallschrimjagers from the get-go?

Side note, are there any fun, unusual lists for Germany to try?

>>48389413
Yes, but that isn't actually part of the paratrooper's job description. You have a group made for making armoured attacks: The panzerdivisions. Again, this is typical of germany, with numerous redundant command structures.

And besides, the panther was a good tank, when it ran, and wasn't expected to actually advance on anyone.

>>48389603
>Yes, but that isn't actually part of the paratrooper's job description.
Killing the enemy certainly is.
>making armoured attacks
Yeah, that's why they never issued tanks or IFVs or APCs to the non-armoured divisions. Oh wait. And as you said, even if you're using your paratroopers in a more defensive role, as they were in market garden, tanks and armoured vehicles have huge utility there as well.

r8 lads?

German Panzer Kampfgruppe (Veteran Division)

Tank Company, from Desperate Measures, page 68


Compulsory Panzer Kampfguppe HQ (Veteran) (p.69) - CinC Panzer IV J, 2iC Panzer IV J (175 pts)

Compulsory Panzer Platoon (Veteran) (p.70) - Command Panzer IV J, 2x Panzer IV J (260 pts)

Compulsory Panzer Platoon (Veteran) (p.70) - Command Panzer IV J, 2x Panzer IV J (260 pts)

Beute Panzer Platoon (Veteran) (p.71) - Command T-34 obr 1942 (captured), 2x T-34 obr 1942 (captured) (225 pts)

Tracked Panzerspah Platoon (Veteran) (p.85) - Command Panzer II L Luchs, 2x Panzer II L Luchs (115 pts)

Panzergrenadier Platoon (Veteran) (p.74) - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track (280 pts)

Rocket Launcher Battery (Veteran) (p.91) - Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (105 pts)


1420 Points, 6 Platoons

OR

German Panzer Kampfgruppe (Veteran Division)

Tank Company, from Desperate Measures, page 68


Compulsory Panzer Kampfguppe HQ (Veteran) (p.69) - CinC Panzer IV J, 2iC Panzer IV J (175 pts)

Compulsory Panzer Platoon (Veteran) (p.70) - Command Panzer IV J, 3x Panzer IV J (350 pts)

Compulsory Panzer Platoon (Veteran) (p.70) - Command Panzer IV J, 2x Panzer IV J (260 pts)

Tracked Panzerspah Platoon (Veteran) (p.85) - Command Panzer II L Luchs, 2x Panzer II L Luchs (115 pts)

Panzergrenadier Platoon (Veteran) (p.74) - Command Panzerfaust MG, 6x Panzerfaust MG, 4x Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track (280 pts)

Rocket Launcher Battery (Veteran) (p.91) - Command SMG, Observer Rifle, Kubelwagen, 3x 15cm NW41 rocket launcher (105 pts)

Luftwaffe Heavy Anti-Aircraft Gun Platoon (p.93) - Command SMG, 2x 8.8cm FlaK36 gun equipped with Extra Crew (115 pts)


1400 Points, 6 Platoons

Could maybe swap the heavy AA for wirbels, or take the bonus J out and trade for heer heavy AA, which might make them a bit tastier against heavies.

>>48389670
Issuing tanks and IFVs to the airborne is fine in the appropriate organisation. You seem to believe I'm arguing against the concept of any mechanisation of the airborne, which isn't true; I'm saying the concept of a fallschirmpanzerdivision is a nonsensical manifestation of nazi germany's bytazine, paranoid command structure and the ego of it's leadership. Which it is.

Small numbers of vehicles at low command levels to support paratroppers: good.

Large numbers of heavy, non-airdroppable vehicles whose only possible role is to make armoured attacks or serve as an armoured reserve, which is the domain of another branch of your service who you are supposed to be co-operating and communicating with: bad.

I remember hearing that the M1 sprue has options for later variants/upgrades, is that also true for the T-72?

>>48389873
I mean, as you say, soviet paratroopers airdropped with vehicles: Light vehicles, which were part of their platoons, and vehicles organised at low, usually brigade or lower, command levels. They didn't have a T-72-equipped tank division.

>>48389938

No, but they had BTRDs and BMPs, which add up to armoured infantry however you slice it. Panzer grenadiers, as the original post had it, of a sort.

>>48389873
>whose only possible role is to make armoured attacks or serve as an armoured reserve
Really? ONLY POSSIBLE?

>>48390023
>Really? ONLY POSSIBLE?
What other roles are you envisioning for an armoured division, -division-, in WW2? The fallschirmpanzerdivision was not a really specialist airdroppable tank division; it was equipped with Pz IIIs, IVs, and Panthers. I believe it may even have had tigers. This is not the remit of the air force.

>>48390140
>What other roles are you envisioning for an armoured division, -division-, in WW2?
Well, in this case, acting as assault guns for the FJ, which in this case has a greater degree of mobility than would conventionally be the case.
>This is not the remit of the air force.
Wasn't the name a bit of psyops anyway?

>>48389479
>So, are any of the Luftwaffe lists worth a damn, or is it better to just go for the Fallschrimjagers from the get-go?
They're the same thing. The Fortress Italy lists are pretty good. I don't know if using Panzer IIIs is actually good in game terms, but it's damn cool.

>>48390522
Pz IIIs are fine; they're not the best tanks but they're CV (or FV) and correspondingly kinda tough despite their mediocre armour. Their AT is also quite mediocre but sufficient against other medium tanks. Their numbers are their biggest asset, along with high rof.

>>48390370
>Wasn't the name a bit of psyops anyway?
Not really; it was constituted out of the fallschirm, the issue was that every part of the reich wanted it's own fully-functional army beneath it. Regardless of how necessary it was.

>>48389911
I don't believe so.

The M1 kit had extra space for the 120mm barrel and extended stowage bin of the M1A1.

The T-72 kit has I think mine clearing bits, but not really any tech upgrades in the same manner as the M1 / M1A1.

>>48390806
Well that's a bit disappointing (would the T-72B be within the timeline for TY?)

>>48390849
Possibly.

I'm not much of an expert on Cold War Era tech.

As for the time line, I think anything built during or before 1984 would make sense, sine the game takes place mid-1985.

>>48391125
That means we can expect to eventually see T-64s, updated T-64s, T-80s and T-80Bs.

>>48391437
I'd imagine so.

My thought is that eventually, after a few more nations are added to the game we'll get some additional equipment for the US and USSR.

Maybe call the book REFORGER and have it focused on NATO and WARPAC reinforcements.

Patton tanks, M1A1s, Bradleys, T-55s, T-62s, T-80s etc.

>>48389873
>fallschirmpanzerdivision is a nonsensical manifestation of nazi germany's bytazine.

Well actually the HG Fallschirmpanzerdivision were called like that just because they were the personal army of Goring and were part of the Luftwaffe. But in paper they were like a normal Panzer division with personel originally from the Luftwaffe. So they weren't an airborne division like the Luftwaffe field divisions, though i don't know exactly why they were called "Fallschirm" maybe because was just an honorific.

>>48392226
I think his point was that it was silly for the Luftwaffe to have a ground division just because Göring wanted some tanks and infantry to play with.

>>48392226
>because they were the personal army of Goring and were part of the Luftwaffe.
Yes, in other words
>>48392280
>Göring wanted some tanks and infantry to play with

The luftwaffe had no business assembling ground forces. They were an air force. Paratroopers? Maybe. A panzerdivision? Symptomatic of leadership that doesn't trust each other, and can't co-operate.

>>48392451
It's strange enough that the political party in a one-party state had its own army.

>>48392280
>>48392451
Well the original idea in the late 1942 (i think?) was to boost the Heer with personnel from other armored forces brands. So Goring used that opportunity to form his own personal army because he thought that germany needed more "political" soldiers instead of the more "conservative" army (muh prussian)

But well at the end if i am not wrong Manstein blamed him for that.

>>48392451
and most AA crews divisions were part of the Luftwaffe too.

Cont. to >>48392782
The kriegmarine had their own infantry divison too, though that was because their personnel had to do something at the end of the war.

Personally i blame the creation of the Waffen SS more than the Luftwaffe ground division, of the decline of the Heer.

So after reading up on Italian equipment in WW2, the impression I'm getting is that the main problem was that they looked at the performance of their tanks/planes/etc in the Spanish Civil War, said "that's good enough" and never really bothered to improve or modernize their designs for the 40s. Is that accurate?

>>48392965
>Personally i blame the creation of the Waffen SS more than the Luftwaffe ground division, of the decline of the Heer.
Indeed, as I say, nazi german leadership was a mess of infighting and confusing command. But the creation of a fallschirmpanzerdivision is a comical and clear example of that kind of nonsense.

>>48393608
That might actually make for a fun board game or something. Each player represents the head of one the military branches of Nazi Germany, and they're all fighting over limited resources and who gets the biggest victories while at the same time having to cooperate just enough so that Soviets and Allies don't crush them.

>>48393662
Sure, call it
>Do the Reich thing

>>48393601
Well, they tried to improve stuff, but Italy simply didn't have the industrial or technological base to do that at the speed of the other major powers.

>>48393662
There is a game like this called Churchill, about being the allies and having to fight for individual prestige and resources while co-operating to actually beat the nazis.

>>48393601

Italy’s light, medium, and heavy tanks all came out after the Spanish Civil War, and so did some new fighter planes (which were actually quite good). So no, they didn’t stand still in terms of design. They did notice that their tankettes weren’t cutting it. But it’s still fair to call them complacent. It was either optimistic or naive to call the M13/40 a medium tank and the P26/40 a heavy one – I don’t think they realized that everyone else was making huge leaps forward with their own tanks.

As >>48393734 says, it’s also they didn’t have the industrial capacity. They ordered 500 P26’s but only made about 100, and only enough engines for half of those.

>>48393608
The most funnier thing is that the japanese were worst in that regard, even assassinations between the "factions".

>>48394187
>some new fighter planes (which were actually quite good)
I remember there was a planes thread on /k/ where after the fall of Italy Germany captured "acquired" some G55 Centauros for testing, and apparently some of the officials present said that it was a better aircraft than the Bf109 or the FW190.

>>48394363
Yeah the G55 was indeed pretty good, it was like a mix of Bf109 and FW190 with better maneuverability. It is pretty interesting how with a copy of the same engine as the Bf109 the Italians made a pretty good plane, maybe because they could design it around the engine instead of upgrading a frame or FIAT STRONK. The German were going to upgrade it with an even more powerful engine but still it was easier to maintain the productions of BF than the italian aircraft.

>>48394363
>>48394686
Oh god, i just noticed that my country bought 45 of them for the air force.

Is there a MW list for Dieppe?

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Tis i, panther-anon.

Tried the list today- fought some paratroopers and then a British infantry/tank company. Won 2 lost 1- Though if company command had not failed and run i would've gone 3 for 3.

Also because i know he's in this thread:

SUCK IT TIM YOUR 101ST AIN'T SHIT TO GERMAN STEEL

>>48397308
Kuromorimine pls go

>>48389803
Honestly i'd go with #2, just for the 88s.
Though i'm biased against the Beute panzer platoon.

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>>48397308

>>48397358
Meant for
>>48397329
I'm just a dummy

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>>48397308
>Paratroopers losing to Panthers

Tim, how could you lose that fight?

You take your FEARLESS VETERAN infantry with their Gammon Bombs, Bazookas, and RoF 3 Anti-Tank Guns and you dig them in on top of the objectives.

Then you say "Here kitty kitty kitty..." and make those high point value targets come to you inside AT Gun and Bazooka range.

And then if they survive that, they then have to assault you and survive your increased Tank Assault rating.

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>>48397308
>>48397519
Tim get your shit together man. Get it all together, stick it in a Half Track and ship it to the Shit Front.

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>>48397308
Dammit Tim, you let America down

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The Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1. Hermann Göring is one of the most interesting units in the German armed forces in WW2. I assume it's covered in FoW somewhere, probably the Italian book? They had unique silver tabs and facings that are extremely distinctive, as well as Luftwaffe insignia on Panzer uniforms which immediately catches the eye. They were issued tarnjacke too. The combination of blue Luftwaffe uniforms, the silver flashes and camo smocks makes for a visually simulating paintjob quite different from other German minis.

The HG Division is forever associated with Monte Cassino; several of the senior officers were devoutly Catholic and art-lovers, and they secured the monastery's treasures before the place was flattered in its namesake battle. Subsequently they had to defend themselves against charges of looting, but were vindicated by the Abbot himself.

Regarding all the politics surrounding private armies, I believe the HG Division was specifically created by Göring to try and reclaim some credibility in Hitler's eyes. After his vain empty boast about saving the day at Stalingrad, and with the Allied bombardment of the Reich increasing, he was persona non grata at the Führerhauptquartiere. So Göring upsized his bodyguard to make the HG Division, and forced loads of unprepared Luftwaffe personnel into the Luftwaffe Field Divisions to be cut down on the Ostfront.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6qdqcjrbdorabob/Osprey+-+MAA+385+-+Hermann+Goring+Division.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Fallschirm-Panzer_Division_Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

>>48399463
>I assume it's covered in FoW somewhere, probably the Italian book?
Right-o. It's covered in Fortress Italy.

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>>48388072
>So instead of "anti-aircraft cannon" it would be "antiaircraftcannon".
Technically, you can do both. That's why you sometimes see "1. Panzerdivision" and sometimes you see "1. Panzer-Division". It just varies from person to person, really.

>I think the longest single-word in German is the name of a very specific tax law.
It /was/ a law on beef production, but the Germans dropped it because of some European Union law on cattle was changed. So now, the word no longer exists.

Here's the word: Rindfleischetikettierungsueberwachungsaufgabenuebertragungsgesetz

Or, if you'd like to abbreviate it: RkReUAUG

>>48397055
Yes, a PDF: I'll post a link later if you can't find it.

>>48397519
>>48397594
>>48397928

...i feel sorry for Tim, ...getting told like this.

his dice must have hated him.
(then again like i say...on paper...)

>>48401492
Thanks, managed to find it:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/Mid-war/Dieppe-Forces.pdf

Bit annoyed that, despite even showing the Dingoes in the pictures, they don't include them (or any recce) in the lists.

>>48401952
IIRC they were used as command and control/liason vehicles, not recce.

>>48401794
>then again like i say...on paper...

Ok, perhaps I exaggerate on how "easy" it should be, but barring some truly god awful dice rolls, poor deployment, or an unusual terrain situation, a player who will likely be defending as Fearless Veteran infantry should be able to hold off, or at least severely blunt, an attack by a tank force such as Panthers.

If it's a mission where even the "defender" has to be mobile and on the attack, then yes, infantry might suffer a bit against an armored force.

>>48402204
You'd still expect to see them as a transport option for the HQ, then (which was pretty common historically).

>>48390806

All you really need to do to model later variants of the T-72 (at least Russian ones anyway) would be to cover the current one in ERA bricks.

>>48400536
and in Grey Wolf digital, for represent when they fighted through Poland.

>>48402791
Mission was caluldron. 101st defended, i attacked.

He deployed everything and kept a unit of fireflies in reserve, a unit of fireflies in ambush, and a platoon of paratroopers in reserve. Had 2 platoons of paras and his commander on the table around the objectives.

I deployed my unit of panthers, my command panther, and the wespes.

Turn 1:
Panthers move 12" to the south of the table, in charge range of the first unit of paras.
Tim then shot at the panthers with the fireflies(misses) and then smoked with the shermans. He then charged. I killed a few units with the overwatching MGs, but did not pin.
The combat went back and forth quite a bit but in the end i killed the entire platoon including his company commander, at the cost of two panthers.

My turn 1:
Arty dropped on remaining platoon, killed 2-3 stands.
Panther advanced slowly, hiding behind the wreckage of their former platoon mates, and killed the fireflies, and bailed 1 sherman. Sturmtruppen for cover.

Turn 2:
Tim's shermans advanced, killed a wespe. His infantry remain dug in and do not shoot. Sherman does not unbail.
My turn 2:
Panthers shoot at the infantry, no kills. Wepses drop another barrage, and get another stand.

Turn 3:
Tim's Infantry and Fireflies do not come out of reserve. His sherman unbails, and they shoot at the wespes, killing another one.

My Turn 3:
No reserves come in for me. Wespes hold. Panthers shoot at the infantry again, and sturmtruppen closer.

Turn 4:
Tim's fireflies and third para platoon come in on his board edge. The paras on the objective try to charge but are pinned down. The shermans try to kill the wespes but miss.

My turn 4:
Panzerspahs come in on my board edge, and the pnzergrndr platoon behind tim's fireflies. The wepse shoots smoke in front of them. The panthers shoot both the platoon and the shermans; bailing 1 sherman. They then assault the infantry, but the bazooka team goes bonkers and single handly wipes the rest of the platoon.

>>48404666
Cont.

Turn 5:
Tim at the doubles EVERYTHING he can, to try and get it close. His shermans shoot the wespe platoon again and kill the staff team.

My turn 5: Panzerspahs advance as fast and as hard as they can, same with the auflkarungs.
Wespe at the doubles with everything else around the objective.

Turn 6:
Tim shoots and kills the OP tank. Other shooting is ineffectual.

My turn 6:
Panzer spahs roll up behind the fresh paraplatoon and fire their 12 shots, landing around 10 hits. Time saves a few but loses just over half. The platoon fails it's command check and quits the field. The rest of his company follows.


That's basically the gist of Panther vs Paras

>>48404760
As a note, those details are slightly shaky, i don't fully remember the exact details of the back and forth in the middle.

>>48404666
>in charge range of the first unit of paras.
>He then charged.
And that's where he fucked up. Infantry, especially in a scenario when you have delayed reserves, want to hole up and sit tight on the objective. Time is on the defender's side, charges are for when you don't have time to force them to come to you.

>>48404666
>He then charged.

Mistake # 1. He should have continued to let you come to him.

>The paras on the objective try to charge but are pinned down.

Mistake #2. He should be forcing you to assault him.

Also, I'd recommend that he pick up some anti-tank guns in place of the Shermans and Fireflies. They fit the defensive play style of the infantry better.

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FLGS just got Kampfgruppe Muller in!

Just finished visiting Fantasy of Flight in Florida. They are only running a fraction of Kermit's collection in the museum, but they have some great pieces if you like aviation or war history. Most everything they have can fly or is being prepared to fly. They keep oil in everything and you can see the oilpans underneath the planes.

B-24 Liberator in pic

>>48403075
Yeah. Pretty much. Which is why I expect we'll see other Soviet tanks instead of a T-72 upgrade.

What are some good EW German lists? I'm thinking Panzergrenadiers in halftracks but i have only looked at the fall of france book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O13h2A4v6kQ

Music to listen to while you guys tell me.

>>48408334
You could look into a list from Barbarossa and bring a Dicker Max... for science.

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>>48408516
Sounds filthy, i use the thing in War Thunder. What are it's stats in FoW?

>>48408590
40" range , ROF 2, AT 15, FP 2+

FA 4, SA 1, TA 0, AA MG

It costs 480 points, and I think TA 0 is probably it's downfall, but it will ruin a heavy tank list or punish any opponent who lacks good artillery support.

>>48408808
I am pretty sure some flaks 88 or even flak bunkers could be a better option agains heavy tanks.

>>48408334
I think it could be a better idea to see barbarossa for some better lists

>>48408334
For a while Czech Panzers were pretty popular among German EW players, but I'm not an EW player myself.

>>48409848
Czechology is love. Is Life.

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>>48409848
>>48409958
Panzers 38t are really cute and pretty useful since they are a cheaper alternative for AT6.

>>48409019

88's are a much better option. But bringing the Dicker Max is all about having the biggest barrel on the battlefield. I guess I'll stop trying to get other people to buy into my list fetishes.

>>48408334
Seems like you want the Panzerschutzenkompanie from Barbarossa. Max out all 3 of your infantry platoons and you will still have a lot of points for support options. I am assuming Barbarossa will at least give you a better variety of support options compared to Blitzkrieg. Running a Barbarossa list will also let you bring Panzerknackers in addition to AT Rifles, which will help out against armor.

>>48397308
>>48397519
>>48397594
>>48397928
Someone find me a picture of a paratrooper with a funny face.

Its meme time

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>>48411066
I think this one has the right amount of "You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?" In the facial expression.

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>>48411066
Or if you wanted a face that would charge tanks with infantry.

>>48411682
GODDAMNIT CAPTIAN SOBEL YOU CHARGE THOSE TANKS RIGHT GODDAMN NOW WHAT IS THE GODDAMNED HOLDUP

>>48397308

I actually lost because I made 1 mistake, All I had to do to win was dig in with my mortar squad and keep them out of the fight. You had nothing to kill my shermans with on the last turn so they could have just sat on the objective

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>>48412207
I had a panzerschreck and a bunch of panzerfausts in those halftracks.

>>48412207
Your mistake was trying to assault the tanks. Twice.

Let the tanks come to you. Make *them* assault *you*. Shoot them with bazookas in defensive fire, then when you roll to strike back make use of your Fearless Veteran status and improved Tank Assault stats to throw some grenades down their hatches to bail out or blow up the tanks.

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I've only done tank focused lists before, and this is my first attempt at an infantry based one. Any suggestions? Was mainly looking at this because then I'd only have to buy one infantry platoon, the 6pdrs, and the normal UCs.

>>48415202

>the sexy trap

I'll be honest, sometimes I forget we're on 4chan; other times I forget we're on /tg/. That pic could have gone either way

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>>48416160
Truly this website has ruined me

Jalkaväkikomppania (Regular)
Grey Wolf*

-Jalkaväkikomppania HQ (Regular): 2 Cmd SMG team, 2 Panzershrek team
-Jalkaväki Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd Panzerfaust SMG team, 8 Rifle/MG team
-Jalkaväki Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd Panzerfaust SMG team, 8 Rifle/MG team
-Jalkaväki Machine-gun Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd SMG team, 2 Maxim HMG team
-Jalkaväki Tank-hunter Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd Panzerfaust SMG team, 6 Panzerfaust Rifle team
-Jalkaväki Heavy Mortar Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd SMG team, 1 Observer Rifle team, 3 Tampella M/40 120mm mortar
-Sturmi Platoon: 3 Stu 40 G Sturmi
-Heavy Anti-tank Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd SMG team, 2 75 PstK/40 (7.5cm PaK40) gun
-Pioneeri Platoon (Regular): 1 Cmd Pioneer Rifle team, 8 Pioneer Rifle team,1 Pioneer Supply truck
1500pts

*I don't have the revised edition book, not sure how much of a difference it makes

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>>48411066

>>48418704

That's not a war face. That's a "about to get shot in the ass" face.

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>>48418716

>>48413552
I don't see any obvious problems with it. Give it a try.

>>48418153
I think the revised book is in the scans database.

It seems like a good list, but it's very infantry-heavy.

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>>48412085

>>48418846
>it's very infantry-heavy
As opposed to what, exactly? Finns don't really have great access to armored/mechanized units.

>>48420986
Ah. Ok. I didn't realize it was Finns.

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So I'm looking at getting into this game, and being the massive slavaboo I am, I picked up the Red Bear book. I'm a big fan of Soviet assault engineers and was thinking of running a Sapper-Engineer Battalion, are these considered viable at all? Not interested in being super competitive and min-maxy about it, just want to put something together that isn't shite.

I also want to get some IS-2s in there for support, as I think it's a pretty cool tonk. However, I've read that it's piece of shit in FoW due to a quirk of game mechanics. Is there a way to make them usable, or should I just avoid them altogether and slap some T-34s in there?

>>48423068

I think Hungariboo has the assault sappers with body armor out of a Berlin DLC list. He may have some advice.

As far as IS-2s go, the only way to make them worth bringing is to bring them as IS-85s.

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Why is team yankee so much steeper than other FOW? seems like mechanized USA is horribly more expensive than mech in any other time period, same with things like warthogs

Khurasan abrams are looking nice though...

>>48424726
Steeper? Not noticeably so. At least not in my opinion.

But that could just be because it took me so long to actually find the units that I just bought them anyway...

>>48423068
Engineer Sappers can work, but the primary problem they have is formation cost (unit points), and the fact they're trained. They are however Fearless, so that makes then a death-trap for would be tanks to assault. In a sense, they're not likely to retreat when a trio of Panthers want to run them over. Had more than a few players learn this the hard way. Best bet when building an Engineer Sapper list is to go with 1 company at 2-platoon size, and the other at 1-platoon size as backup. Unless you have the points for both to be 2-platoons and still have room for support (think 2,000pts or more). Second, plan on being the attacker when up against infantry. Which means bring some tanks, preferably 120mm mortars, and anything that might help you both on attack and defense.

IS-2s have one and only one purpose in FoW, and that's to be an overpriced assault tank when given escorts, .50cal, and possibly bedsprings. Short end of it, they fucking suck at tank on tank fighting, are "meh" at negotiating terrain, and will eat a fuckton of points. IS-85s and KV-85s are the better "heavy" tanks to bring. Otherwise stick with T-34s, 76mm M4s, or flame tanks (not OT-34-85s, go with OT-34s or KV-8s).

>>48424821
panzergrenadier company $45 for 4 ht's and full inf platoon, US soldiers $18 and not fieldable w/o $37 m113 group.
How many points is a typical game? the one listed in the book is 100pts but idk what most people play. Getting 60 points doesn't sound that hard but it costs about as much as getting 800 points of ww2 FOW. (at least without buying boxed sets, that might be where i'm going wrong)

>>48425033
100pts is standard. And that's equivalent to like a 1500pt force in normal FoW

>>48424932
There is one DLC list for Berlin woth FV Engineer Sappers. Not sure how expensive they are points wise.

>>48425033
Boxed sets aren't going to save you very much, maybe $10 at most compared to buying it separately.

I think TY seems so expensive due to how dirt cheap (points wise) some of the support units are. MBT heavy lists should be a bit easier on your wallet, albeit less balanced.

>>48425277
I'm thinking of mostly abrams + air support. What is it that makes mbt lists worse? I haven't played flames much yet.

>>48425436
Abrams and Leopard 2 both cost a lot of points to take in any significant numbers.

Leaving you with fewer points to spend on supporting units like aircraft, anti-aircraft, infantry, etc.

>>48425436
>>48425512

Basically just reiterating what Eagles is saying. MBT's a like a nice juicy steak. However, just having a steak doesn't make a fine dining experience.

The Abrams is a fine tank with strong armor, but at the minimum you will want some AA and a mechanized platoon along with air and/or artillery support. From the little I've played, unsupported Abrams get devoured by Hinds. You want to maximize the number of VADS and 50 cals that can be used in defensive fire against incoming air attacks.

Another thing to think about is that your MBTs can't be everywhere at once, so you will need to use cheaper support units to cover the flanks and plug any gaps.

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>>48411682
Need to play with it more, but this should work for now.

>>48423068
Well, the red bear list is probably the better of the two. The Veteran DLC list for Berlin has limited support options and is hellishly expensive (a full FV company is 520pts for 13 stands!) so you did good kid.

Now, for advice.

KV8's are love, KV8's are life. Or more appropriately KV8s's. They are insane. They are death incarnate to dug in infantry, and can assault with TA2 to force your opponent to reroll hits. Its beautiful to watch.

Other units I would recommend is some sort of regular tank. Check out KV 85's and IS 85's. Regular T34's or shermans wont have enough numbers to survive in an infantry list, but the 85mm armed heavy tanks can really stand up to punishment and slap around enemy mediums, as well as assault. I run just KV1s's with 76mm guns, but wish I had gone with the 85's.

Alternatively, you could buy su76's to up your platoon count with some cheap fire support. Never tried it personally though.

Also, get some sort of true arty or mortars. I got katyushas and they really dont pull their weight. The 120mm mortars are cheap and hit hard, everytime I've seen someone use them they pull their weight, so I'd try those.


Finally, a bit of advice about buying. Keep your eyes peeled for the Battalion box set on ebay, its a great deal and using that box I built two 14 stand companies, HQ stands, and had a couple bases to spare for different weapons options. Try to find some maksims as its the only weapon not in the box, other than that youll be set.

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>>48426473
oh yeah that was me btw

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>>48426473
Poor lad is too used to play his Japanese

>>48425277
The Berlin DLC Sapper Engineer list is "hero", so your tank support is garbage. But the sapper engineers are all Fearless Veteran. Makes them expensive, but you're not buying companies by 7 stand platoons.

It's probably one of the only Berlin lists worth getting, next to Hero Cavalry, and "Udarny+" (Hero Strelk).

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>>48426917
honestly, its an honest mistake.

As a guy who normally plays infantry, sitting still and making the enemy come to you is the hardest thing in the game. You see those tanks so TANTALIZINGLY CLOSE, and you just want to teach those cheeky fucks a lesson. Plus you have that inner voice saying "quit being a pussy and kill those tanks, you know you can if you just charge them now."

Be a pussy, thats how you get the tank player to be impatient and commit to a suicide assault. Especially when you have fearless infantry with a command team nearby dug in, and doubly so if you were smart and were able to get them to charge through terrain.

Its why my infantry lists always have tanks. Even if the tanks arent really that good, they give me something to push around and sate my bloodthirsty aggressiveness that I always get for no real reason.

C3K can back this up. He's seen me charge all of my infantry after tanks because I was sick of looking at the damn things.

>>48427526
my problem is the core is really good (your FV engineers)

its just so hard to find good support.

I honestly just want to take nothing but infantry and gun teams, the tanks just come in far too small units to be useful.

Its why the FT list is so good in my opinion. You have excellent support choices that just arent an option in the FV list.

That said, I have yet to try the FV version in game. Murray KY is a damn desert for historicals of any kind so I'm having a hard time finding a community.

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>>48427707
No that's 100% fair. We've been teaching each other the game, mistakes will happen. I'm SUPER new- i only got into the game because he sold me 5 panthers for $10 and some halftracks for pizza. Tim's got a lot more under his belt, but is still comparatively fresh.

>>48427707
Yeah, thr Hero Engineer Sapper list had shit tank support... It fucking sucks. Although you can get by with ISUs alright, since they're pretty similar to Red Bear ones and don't jump up in cost too bad (5pts a tank, iirc). Also SU-85s and SU-85Ms are the unsung winners of the Hero Tank Killers.

>>48427806
>i only got into the game because he sold me 5 panthers for $10 and some halftracks for pizza

Holy shet, that remind me when i tried to gift vasily hammer to a friend

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Having finished watching Girls Und Panzer Der Movie, I can safely say that is totally bonkers, also that the various teams need to learn how to halt and fire. Seriously the final battle would have resolved itself in a few seconds if either Miho or Maho had halted and let the Centurion turn it's weaker armour towards them.

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>>48428305
But then it wouldn't be as exciting

>>48425730
Each Abrams is 8 points. If you take at least three in a platoon (which you should always do), so 24 points for one tank platoon, times two for compulsory, and 1 HQ tank, gets you 56 points by themselves. You still need AA (Russian Air is scary), plus your own air, and some other form of support. They're powerful, but small and fragile.

Stuarts, Jalopies, or Carriers for Recce?

>>48428817
Which list? If I remember right the unit compositions and ratings can vary for each across lists

>>48428915
CV, mainly looking at Churchill and infantry lists.

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>>48428305
>Girls Und Panzer Der Movie
>totally bonkers
It totally is, for better or worse. Lots of unlearning happened between the series and der film.

>>48424726
Is it? Mechanized infantry is always expensive. Transports have lousy dollar/point ratios in every time period, in every tabletop game.

>just dicovered PSC did an A9/10 cruiser box

YES

With plastic Pz IIIs already available finally tank battles in North Africa are very affordable.

>>48418040
Those are surprisingly accurate panthers for a pulp magazine

>>48418040
>panthers
>in panzergrau

>>48431820
DUNKELGELB OVER DUNKELGRAU

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>>48431443
They would have been literally copied/traced from an old photo.

>>48426473
>Also, get some sort of true arty or mortars. I got katyushas and they really dont pull their weight. The 120mm mortars are cheap and hit hard, everytime I've seen someone use them they pull their weight, so I'd try those.
Katyushas are trash due to being unarmoured vehicles that are functionally mortars. They really suffer from FoW's "stick artillery in rifle range" thing. A mortar is equivalent (and the ones from DM/Berlin are actively better) and can also be dug in and more easily concealed.

>>48427526
>It's probably one of the only Berlin lists worth getting, next to Hero Cavalry, and "Udarny+" (Hero Strelk).
Yeah, it's a tricky list but I'd rate the hero engineers as one of the better lists. Hero cav is alright too, but I really don't love hero strelk. Yeah, it's a better Undarny, but Udarny kinda sucked and it lacks a decent gimmick to fight around.

>>48429199
Not Hungariboo but I'd prefer Carriers there. Stuarts are kind of a trap option, IMO, since they have a shitty cannon that's there to bait you into breaking Cautious Movement and wasting a turn you should be doing Recce Shit, which leaves you with Jalopies or Carriers, and your guys are moving either 6" or 8" so you probably don't need crazy movement speed to keep ahead of them.

>>48429877
>>48429877
They don't have the christie suspension, sadly.

>>48431895
Counter opinion: Stuarts' 37mm gun is a good backup option for when shit's gone south, or for when you find some Panthers and their delicious side armour. Plus if you fit them with the AA MG, you can throw Seven machine gun dice down range, and that amount of dice is almost guaranteed to make the law of statistical averages side in your favour. Especially against infantry in the open. Which with a 16' move combined with Recce Move, you may be able to get first turn on some missions.

Let's say you're lead designer for a third edition. What're you changing?

>>48433024
Fourth...

>>48433024
>>48433036
Adding Brutal, but keeping Breakthrough. Then we can have a nice range from normal guns, to Brutal, to Breakthrough, and finally Bunker Buster (and the subtype of Building Destroyer, rare as those are). Give Brutal to certain weapons in the 85mm-105mm range, and maybe let Building Destroyer guns use the Brutal rule during artillery bombardments.

Swap the skill order on artillery bombardments. Range in based on your skill, hit teams based on their skill.

Tone down Spearhead. A number of the current OP lists are so because Spearhead is so powerful.

Make smoke more effective against bunkers, but not full effectiveness (ie: just grants concealment, not concealed and gone to ground). I want to reduce the effectiveness of smoke elsewhere, but for many trained lists smoke is vital for dealing with how fucking good veteran generally is. Maybe just make it so you don't also get gone to ground from smoke if you're within 8"? Minor, but makes sense given that a unit providing defensive fire from 8" away only counts the attackers as concealed.

>>48433036
make it so theres a way to hit dug in gone to ground vets past 16", even if its 6's and then 6's again or something

>>48433024
Change the stat lines of guns so that the various shells are not merged into one. In most cases this will result in two stat lines (AP and HE, or HEAT and HE), and occasionally a third or fourth.
Howitzers will see the biggest change from this, as their HEAT shells will no longer benefit from the excellent firepower rating of their HE shells.
An alternative is to split the Firepower rating between Soft and Hard, where the former is versus unarmoured targets, and the latter versus armoured.

>>48431918
A9 and A10 used christie suspension?

>>48434334
No, they didn't, but you need A13s for most lists in africa.

Unrelatedly, how many figures, on what size base, is a flamethrower team in the pioneer units that can take them (Particularly brits, but I assume it's the same for everyone)?

So I was reading through Team Yankee in my FLGS today and is a motor rifle company as prohibivly huge as I think?

As far as I can tell it needs 20+ BMPs?

Now I like BMPs but painting that many does turn me off somewhat.

>>48436241
If you're playing motor rifles then yeah, you'll need somewhere between 15 and 30 BMPs.

looking to get into team yankee, are they thinking of doing a starter any time soon? Also, are the army boxes worth getting?

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New thread plz