Kill Me

>>48160382
>Enchanted creature is a colorless land
..and loses all other card types and abilities
I thought they said Humility effects were a mistake.

People called this ages ago
Actually now that I think about /tg/ thought that Emrakul was already in the moon or was THE moon

>Phyrexia takes 10,000 years to defeat
>The Eldrazi take 3 months to defeat

JUST

Remember Vindicate? Remember how sick that art was? Remember how important it was for the story?

This and Fall of the Titans are embarrassing. How are the Eldrazi even threats? Apparently all you gotta do is get a couple PWs together and its easy.

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>>48160445
>Urza said he'd get rid of phyrexia
>Nissa said she'd get rid of the eldrazi
...Sure don't see any eldrazi around anymore.

>>48160496
Urza also ended up joining Phyrexia.

>>48160482
It was so impactful because it was the culmination of years of story development. It would've fallen similarly flat if Invasion came on the heels of another great victory for Weatherlight & Co.

>>48160496
Urza accomplished his goals, he had no idea Karn was infected by the oil.
>>48160526
No he was forced to fight in the arena against Gerrard who promptly decapitated Urza. It was Mishra who joined the phyrexians

>>48160526
That's because he saw the light.

All will be one.

So is this it? No more Eldrazi? Or is Emmy going to bust out in a few years?

>>48160496

Emrakul is still alive, just inside a moon.

Yawgmoth is dead.

>>48160548
>No he was forced to fight in the arena against Gerrard who promptly decapitated Urza
So that whole part when he ended up talking to yawgmoth for a good 30 minutes and promptly killed the other Titans never happened then?

>>48160382
thats a fairly decent removal card desu. about time blue got one. i like it

>>48160548
no, he willfully fought gerrard after abandoning his brother (or a phantom/illusion thereof) because he was brainwashed and it literally took him losing his head to bring him back to what passed for his senses.

>>48160382
I can't. Thus is already hell.

>>48160548
>he had no idea the Phyrexian Power Stone would infect Karn

chalk up another mistake to the ledger

>>48160548
>Urza accomplished his goals, he had no idea Karn was infected by the oil.
He also missed like, a million planes that phyrexia owned and controlled.
Elspeth is from an old phyrexia world. The only Karn phyrexia world is New Phyrexia/Mirrodin

>>48160382

>three Old Walkers have to lay an intricate trap on a special plane over the course of at least decades just to have a chance at imprisoning the Eldrazi
>a team of faggot Neowalkers, with essentially zero prep time, manage to imprison one on a plane essentially driven insane by the presence of Emrakul and straight up KILL Ulamog and Kozilek

10/10 writing.

>>48160719
>The only Karn phyrexia world is New Phyrexia/Mirrodin
>Implying Kaladesh wasn't one of the worlds he visited while infect with Super Aids
>Implying Kaladesh isn't going to be overrun by Phyrexians soon

Jacetice league ho!

>>48160752
I can't wait for them to encounter Phyrexia for the first time and get wrecked.

>>48160560
>>48160573
Emrakul is sealed in a moon in a setting where people don't have Piccolo moon-busting powers and surprisingly never really did. Emrakul is as good as gone now. Full moons'll give people hella nightmares and the angels will act wonky, but that's about it.

>>48160573
>Yawgmoth is dead
And his monsters are still running around countless planes and have already replaced him with a Porcelain Meat statue.
Back to square one, I guess?

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>>48160382
>turn a permanent into a land
>blue
Of course.

>>48160582
It's worse than Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere. But I guess those are too powerful for Standard...

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>>48160764

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>>48160573
>Yawgmoth is dead.
>believing the lie

>>48160740
>Phyrexiafags, every time and without fail. Imagine if you guys were eldrazifags, saying "Emrakul gonna eat your plane" for years. You're literally more annoying than them

>>48160729
>two old walkers are told what to do by a third and trust him implicitly for no reason
>a bunch of desperate neowalkers decide to ignore the old dragon's warnings and prove that he's full of shit
I'm not saying it's brilliant writing, but maybe, just maybe, Ugin is not some omnibenevolent genius.

>>48160801
>be me, a Lagefage
>Almost no-one remembers who Marit Lage is anymore
>Not even phyrexiafags, who are in the same place
fml

>>48160832
I thought the only reason Ugin said not to kill them was in case they had some greater purpose that removing them would cause even more damage

>>48160832
People tend to respect the giant, ancient glowy dragon who acts like a wise old man.

>>48160719
Karn Karn'd up pretty much every world Karn went to.
Elspeth's home could have been Karn'd by Karn.

>>48160855
Yes, there was some MYSTICAL COSMIC BULLSHIT about killing them, like they were aspects of inherent forces in the universe or some such shit.

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>>48160869
>"So I swoop in and tell them what I want them to do. Give a few vague lines about greater purpose, and then show off how ancient and dragony I am. Works every time!"

>>48160869
For some reason. Has Ugin actually done anything to justify people thinking he's wise?

>>48160869
which is exactly what he wants
>>48160855
that's his story, and even if it's true, he never said they can't be killed, just that it's maybe not the best idea. the gatewatch basically just said "desperate times, fuck their shit."

>>48160878
Elspeth's world was ruled by Old Phyrexians

>>48160907
he tends to know a little more than his audience whenever possible, also he's a dragon, and in sorin's case, he was way older, which is saying something. otherwise, absolutely nothing

>>48160897
"The Eldrazi probably have a greater purpose and are a necessary part of the cosmic ecosystem. Killing them could cause untold danger. Instead let's imprison them indefinitely."

>>48160897
Ugin just said they *might* be that. He had no proof.

Anyway, there were two reasons they were able to imprison Emrakul with no "prep time": Tamiyo had already been studying the moon for a long time; and they already understood how the hedron network worked from Zendikar. Yes, Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri spent a long time *developing* the system, but once it existed, anyone could understand the principles and apply them elsewhere.

>>48160784
No, they're just too powerful to be mono U.

>>48160762
Be realistic, they'll win in the second set.

>>48160382

THE COLOR PIEEEEEE!!! IS DEADDD!!!

I'll jam one into my UW decks for sure. Great way to get rid of Commanders.

>>48160406
Humility effects are a mistake when they can end up applying to the permanent that is producing them.

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>>48160970
Source is the art book that came out Tuesday

>>48160762
>I can't wait for them to encounter Phyrexia for the first time and wreck them with zero prep time
fixed

>>48161056
Wizards has said Phyrexia is the be all, end all, final big bad of MTG. I doubt they'd lose that fast

>>48160762
Don't hold your breath. The Jacetice League will probably show up on New Phyrexia and use the moons of Mirrodin to pull some magic bullshit that destroys all the Phyrexians with no tension at all.

>>48161066
MaRO has, and that might just be MaRo's delusional wish.

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>>48161050
that picture turned out shitty; here's a better one

>>48161056
>every block from now on will just be the jacetice league stumbling into danger and defeating it with zero effort

>>48160560
>>48160763
Return to Shadows of Innistrad will have Phyrexians bust Emmy out of moon-jail.

>>48160764
Moonlace

>>48161088
THIS fucking phyrexiafags thinking phyrexia will just show up like the Joker in a Batman movie.

>>48161080
>They arrive on New Phyrexia. Fight for 3 minutes.
>They all decide 'Nope' and drop the red and green moons haphazardly on the Artifact plane.
>Koth survives because they made Gideon kidnap him to Theros.

>>48160729
none of them were Green, NIssa's magics allow for this shit pretty easily.

the Old Walkers were simply not attuned to the right magic.

>>48161088
The two final bosses are either Phyrexia or Nicol Bolas.

Guys!

Guys!

Hey, listen, Guys!

What if...

What if they...

Shut up, Guys!

What if New Phyrexia attacked Ravnica and assimilated all the guilds?

>>48161165
>The final boss is both Phyrexia and Nicol Bolas.

>>48161050
>>48161092
>Emrakul was on top of them before they realize "we can just lock her in the moon" which they then immediately do with no effort

>>48160762
PHyrexian soldiers are nothing special

Elspeth (superhuman as she is though) killed them by the legions.

>>48161213
Well, Nissa's part sounded like it took a fuckton of effort. Then again, it seems Nissa's job here is permanently ramping for everyone.

>>48160382
>>>/mlp/27833178

>>48161258
>Elspeth (superhuman as she is though) killed them by the legions.
And they still lost because where 10,000 die there are 1,000,000,000 more tot take their place. Plus they can reuse their dead.

>>48161139
MtG : Age of Bolas will have Nick send his new minion Nahiri to break Emracool free, in half a set.

>>48161346
and? its just numbers, they aren't particularly strong or intelligent, infact, they are fanatics, and they are also fight amongst themselves.

they are not the threat they used to be.

and there isn't THAT many people on fucking MIrrodin son.

>>48161375
Nahiri wouldn't, nor would she serve Bolas, who, to her, would look like an even douchier version of Sorin.

just another manipulator that thinks nothing of his underlings, the very thing that caused her to rebel against sorin.

>>48160382
Fine, good, whatever. Can we get back to the other 2 big bads we had? Bolas and Phyrexia are way more interesting than Kaiju Cthulhus.

>>48161392
There don't need to have been "THAT" many people. Phyrexians breed their own minions as well as compleating people.

>>48161426
Phyrexia isn't interesting, and its been in so many sets that it got old.

splicing it into 3 other colors (Phyrexia was always black-red) didn't particularly change much for me.

literally the first 11 years of Magic is "PHYREXIAAAAAA" and now faggots still want more.

>>48161453
>Phyrexia was always black-red

Red was the worst color for Phyrexia, and it's good that New Phyrexia reexamined them.

>>48161213
They realized it then because that's when Tamiyo showed up

"As if following the moon, Tamiyo arrived on the scene"

Tamiyo bailed them out; they were fucked otherwise

>>48161497
>literal last minute deus ex machina

>>48161453
There's a marked difference between old phyrexia and new phyrexia. Old was yawg going on a power/revenge trip while new phyrexia is just "everything. Must. Be. Lizards."

>>48161544
thats how it was for everyone who was born under Phyrexia regardless of who's in power.

my point stands, people yearn for more of Phyrexia, when we've been given more than a decade of them.

Magic lacks true villians, just "PHYREXIA" again and again being the only interplanar vallain is weak as fuck, Bolas was their attempt to add another, but he's almost comically aloof.

the Eldrazi were just gaint Bacteria, no intent about them.

>>48161514
I'm not saying it's a flawless story or anything, but it's possible for people to complain about it without being idiots while doing so

>>48161544
>new phyrexia is just "everything. Must. Be. Lizards."

That's not even the case. The factions within New Phyrexia each have their own ideas about how Phyrexia should operate and only the voice of the Father of Machines can get them to compromise.

>>48161185
That would suck.

>>48161565
I kind of feel they struck a chord with everyone's favorite GB planeswalking Jason, but then they never developed further on that idea...

Phyrexia sans Yawgmoth just isn't the same.

>people actually wanting plots to take place over 3+ years

what the fuck is wrong with you guys? That would be fucking horrendous, It's way better that we get a semi-contained story in each block so we aren't stuck with the same old shit for half a decade, on top of that it would be terrible for new players trying to get into the game halfway through an arc

>>48161704
>terrible for new players
who the fuck cares

>>48161581

I don't see how he's wrong.

Tamiyo shows up, some magic mumbo jumbo is tossed around, and Emmy gets thrown into the moon in two short paragraphs.

It reads like I got my dumbest friend to give me a summary of a movie he watched a week ago.

>>48161760
You ARE reading the summary of the plot. That's what the artbook is. Now shut up and read the weekly stories so you can know how bad it is.

>>48161700
Yawgmoth's desire to invade Dominaria, the main setting of Magic at the time, and his conflicts with Urza is what made Phyrexia interesting. Without that, they're just dollar store Borg.

>>48161704
>plots to take place over 3+ years
Gideon has been slowly forming the gatewatch since 2010. He made Jace into a lawmage, forced Chandra into the purifying fire, turned Nissa away from species discrimination, and he's about to sink his claws into Liliana and make her able to summon spirits and shit. He is about to create a team of W/x fighters under his command for the express purpose of seeking to maintain order across the multiverse. The past 6 and next 5 years will be discussing how the greatest white planeswalker of all time won everything.

>>48161752
The people making money. That's who.

>>48161139
>Moonlace
What about it?

>>48161863
>the greatest white planeswalker of all time
Wait, Serra's back?

Yeah, I'd love semi-contained and contained world but it seems that current direction is connecting everything to the Gatewatch. I don't even mind seeing them once in awhile or in the background, like SOI story wise had a nice execution with Jace there, but having them in spotlight 24/7 gets really tiring.

>>48161912
Serra was an IDIOT.

she lost a loved one, made a safe space, and then when the safe space got invaded, killed herself.

>>48160904
I just realised Ugin's pattern on those flaps on his neck look just like the Eldrazi card frame from BFZ and the patterns on hedrons. Neat.

>>48161955
they are his design idiot.

of course they look the same he designed the HEdrons.

>>48161842
Precisely. They built up Yawgmoth as just the be-all, end-all villain. An evil man who ascended to higher and higher lofts of greatness, eventually becoming this Godlike figure.

Phyrexia itself and it's bio-machine compleation was just a backdrop to the evil of Yawgmoth, it was never the central element for why they served as an effective villain.

I think another factor that really helped Old Phyrexia was the cards themselves. I mean look at YawgWill and Bargain, you fucking know shit is real when the cards named after the BBEG are this fucking insane.

Then in Scars... I guess New Phyrexians have like AIDs... AIDS is cool I guess.

>>48161950
sounds like tumblr before its time

>>48160382
That's just an awful name. Why didn't they call it "Lunar Sealing"? That way it sounds cooler and could be reprinted sometime. Now it's stuck to this story and has an awkward name.

>>48161704
>people actually wanting plots to take place over 3+ years
The Eldrazi were introduced in original Zendikar ,so we had the three titans introduced in Rise of the Eldrazi they did nothing for 6 years and then are deal with in less than 1 year. With a pacing like that you couldn't build them as a serious threat.

>>48160427
Those were the most autistic , how can someone really think that emrakul was the moon.
but yeah, this is not a surprise for anyone

>>48161985
I mean, I didn't word it right. I never actually noticed he had any pattern on the flaps because I never saw a high res picture of him. Now, let's drop the insult use, shall we, Mr Fuckface?

>>48161950
Gideon is the man who started going by a different name because some stranger called him the wrong name and he never corrected them. He's kind of an idiot himself.

>>48162095
he did that because Kytheon essentially died with his friends

>>48162033
It's because Wizards kept dropping "subtle" hints that something was up with the moon, and people were hoping that there had to be more going on with the moon than it just being a giant Helvault. Turns out they gave Wizards too much credit.

Is Sorin kill? Nahiri seems to be going full unlimited blade works on his ass.

>>48162147
No, she kept him alive on purpose for two reasons:
>Watch Emrakul destroy his plane, and if she doesn't:
>Eternal suffering from your insides slowly being eaten with just the right amount of speed to allow you to regenerate without gaining back enough strength.

>>48162147
she returned the favor and imprisoned him in stone.

>>48160382
Emrakul ;_;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIq8jLj5TzU

>>48162168
Jokes on her. Planeswalkers can planeswalk out of things like that.

>>48162181
they literally can't and she knows it.

you cannot planeswalk if you cannot concentrate and she made sure he couldn't.

>>48162181
Have you read the story? He can't as of now.

>>48162181
The rock is not just normal rock, it's a magic rock with little teeth inside that slowly chew on Sorin. They inflict constant pain on Sorin and eat at him just enough to keep him alive.

>>48162193
But didn't Koth seal Elspeth in stone in order to force her to planeswalk?

>>48162181
That depends. Nahiri may have implemented some hedron tech to keep him there. She does have some skill at fucking over other planeswalkers, as Ob Nixilis can attest to.

>>48162210
he did so comfortably so she could planeswalk out.

Sorin has stones grinding into his organs for all time.

>>48162175
kek

>>48162205
Sounds pretty BDSM

>>48162271
Kor are into freaky things.

>>48160560
Of course Emrakul will escape. And people will complain about it.

Sorin will escape and people will complain about it.

Innistrad will be fine and people will complain about it.

Had Emrakul done more people would have complained about that.

If they'd left the Eldrazi imprisoned people would complain about it.

If they hadn't ripped off Cthulhu people would complain it.

>>48162299
fuck off maro

>>48162333
If people complain, people will complain about it.

It's circles all the way down.

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>>48160382
Wasn't this card specifically called a mistake?
Also, since when does blue do direct removal, a land-related one at that?

>>48162175
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhZ2X9znPxM

>>48162466
It can't hit artifacts or enchantments.

Green shouldn't be hitting creatures, that's what the problem with Song was.

>>48161752
This desu. Most new players don't immediately become Vorthos'. Even the ones that do are still a minority compared to the ones that like the game because its fun.

Hell, when I started playing three years ago I didn't give a rats ass about the lore and it wasn't the reason I started playing. Eventually I got interested, pirated the books (most are shittily written with some neat lore), and became resident Vorthos #10099

>>48162299
There are even people complaining about people complaining about it.

>>48162480
So, why is blue allowed to hit creatures, lands and even planeswalkers?

>>48162466
blue gets various forms of "turn that thing into another thing" since polymorph. hitting lands and walkers is a bit new, but maybe the creative team was hard up for it. I feel like this was going to be UW but then development.

>>48162508
Because blue needs some kind of fun toy after being fucked for so long and having all their spells stolen by green.

>>48162529
Except that blue is still the most versatile color as far as design space goes.

>>48162508
Because blue, like all colors in magic, can dip a little into the toolbox of an allied color. Only it will be worse and higher up in rarity. So blue can have a worse kinda o-ring at rare.

>>48162508
blue has had "enchanted land is an island" for ages. this can be better or worse than that on a land, nothing new. the hitting walkers and doing all three in one card are the only real new notes.

>>48160574

He only killed the black one and the pentacolor one, two more died on phyrexia.

Freyalise and Windgrace survived, Guff sacrificed himself

>>48160382
"ON THE MOOOOOOOOOOOOON BEYOOOOOOOOOTCH!"

If I was supposed to be sorry for that, they would have not made this card

>>48160764
Couldn't you just use this on your enemies permanents though?

>>48162508
Because of Turn to Frog, and Spreading Seas.

Planeswalkers as a permanent are in a bit of an "anything goes" category. Green can hit them because it gets blanket Noncreature Permanent removal. Red can shoot them directly. Black has cards specifically for Planeswalker removal. Blue has this now, and it's not even a permanent solution.

White seems to be the color that actually has the least options for directly dealing with a planeswalker. They have to attack into it.

>>48161453

Old phyrexia was so White/Black it hurt

>>48162147
>Is Sorin kill?
Is Elspeth kill?
Is Garruk kill?

Of course not. They're just on ice until they need to do a "Return" set.

>>48162559
>the hitting walkers
And creatures.

>>48162594
I knew someone would dig up transmutation spells.
The problem is they are pretty different. This is more similar to Path to Exile.

>>48162594
or o-ring. anything that hits permanents or nonland permanents, which white has less of in standard, but no shortage of overall.

>>48162600
>old phyrexia was so white/black it hurt

What.
There was no white in Phyrexia at all. It was Black/red all the live long day.

>>48162645
also suppression bonds and faith's fetters. I don't know how often white's gonna get enchant permanent arrests, but i like them for PW answers.

>>48162642
>The problem is they are pretty different.

It's just Spreading Seas with more versatility. You can't undo a Path to Exile.

>>48161050
damn i forgot my 3d glasses

>Both Nahiri and Sorin are still alive by the end of this
HedronBowl II when?

>>48162618
Elspeth is actually kill but whatever, she will be saved by Gideon in Return to Theros and wizards will kill her character forever by giving her peace.

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>>48162657
don't forget Target Black/Red Player Loses At Instant Speed

>>48162654
White is Order, Xenophobia, rigid inflexible Dogma, absolute adherence to the word of their God. Yawgmoth isn't White in the slightest, but Phyrexia itself is.

>>48162691
>Elspeth is actually kill
they literally and quite specifically said she was not dead

Koth's also not dead.

>>48162691
Still rooting for merge to return with theros. literally putting together the broken pieces of herself gives elspeth not peace, but purpose. salvage that trainwreck of a character dammit.

>>48161092
>Or so they hoped
JUST FUCKING END AT LEAST ONE FUCKING STORYLINE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>48162678
That's like saying that if black got a removal that target either a creature or an enchantment, it would be "just" a Murder with more versatility.

>>48162723
it's okay versatility is blue's color pie


:^)

>>48162571
Guff, Freyalise and Windgrace were the only ones of them that were fucking cool and levelheaded

they didn't deserve to be apart of that fucking travesty, and they didn't deserve to die for the mending which they didn't even create.

Urza did, 6 thousand years prior, with the Sylex.

>>48162701
except they were the Black version of religion, not white.

>>48162723
Also, enchantment based removal is White.
So this card should've been white, maybe W/G.

>>48162594

White is the color of straight up annhilating permanents, expecially if paired with black

>>48162723
No, it's like saying if Black got a removal that targets either a creature or a Planeswalker, it would be "just" a Murder with more versatility.

And, my god, they fucking already did.

Planeswalker interactions aren't as rigidly defined as "Red and Blue don't get Enchantment removal" or "Blue and Black don't get Artifact removal".

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>>48162741
>Guff, Freyalise and Windgrace were the only ones of them that were fucking cool and levelheaded
how can you forget bo

>>48162586
.... That's the idea. That's why it's weird that BLUE gets it.

>>48162333
Internet discussions of long-running stuff are always in a state of perpetual disappointment with the current direction of their chosen subject, regardless of whether that direction is good or bad. This in no way means the direction of MTG is good. It's just that fans are always complaining in pretty much the same way.

Eventually your interest will fade entirely and you'll go away, and people who started with the Jacetice League or grew to accept it will complain that there isn't enough Jace anymore and this new guy Flange Ongoron isn't as good.

>>48162713
I'm not really convinced with merge. It's a cool mechanic but it's hard to actually fit it in a normal set without making too few or too many merge card. I think they should actually be more generic with at least one of the two part unless the plot ask for it. For example Hanweir and Brisela are fine, but Chittering Host could very well have been Midnight Scavengers + a rat creature.

>>48162794
that does't work due to the back art.

>>48162754
There's not a Black version of religion. Black is the color of defying the idea that someone gets to tell you what to do.

Black cults are only about trying to take power from whoever they can.

Phyrexia was a proper religion. They believed Yawgmoth was their god and they needed nothing more or less. They weren't in it to squeeze power out of him.

>>48160382
Jesus Christ, they actually did it. They actually ended this in the dumbest way possible.

God, I fucking hate Creative. I hate Wizards. I hate the Jacetice League. Fuck it all.

>>48162782
Oh man I can't wait to see Flange Orangegoron in the new Magic the Gatheringmovie.

>>48160482
The Eldrazi are not a threat to anyone with the Eldrazi binding rune and sufficient mana. That's why they got sealed in the first place. It never took oldwalker powers, and the hedron network was exclusively to have an indefinitely-lasting prison.
Ugin could have killed them effortlessly back in the day. He simply feared, and still fears, unforeseeable consequences.

>>48162820
they didn't "believe" anything, it was genetically imprinted on them, it wasn't a belief, it was their entire existence.

they can't "not" think of him a god, it isn't a white religion, its a black one.

>>48162865
>He simply feared, and still fears, unforeseeable consequences.
I doubt they'll do it but I kinda hope that, in a couple of years from now, they come back to this and see these consequences. They still killed 2 two of them so there should at least be some, right?

>>48162820
white Mana actively HURTS Phyrexians.

it nearly killed Yawgmoth himself.

you simply don't know what you are talking about.

it was always a false-religion, no one in Phyrexia can think otherwise due to the Oil Imprinting.

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>>48160382
>they did it again

>>48162895
That is still White.
It's exactly what the White in New Phyrexia is.

>>48162915
This is coming from the same creative team that decided Red was the appropriate color for mind-controlled, emotionless and soulless drones.

I am already contending that they were wrong, bringing up something else they were wrong about doesn't really make a difference.

>>48162950
>>48162922

they cannot use or channel White Mana, it actively kills them.

old phyrexians at least.

>>48163013
That's because, at the time, White was the color of "Good" and Black was the color of "Evil". They made Red Phyrexians because Red was the next most "Evil" color. It's not reflective of the actual intricacies of the Color Pie, it was an oversimplification.

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>>48162922
both black and white have religious affiliations

black clerics serve higher powers in order to benefit themselves while white ones do it for a greater good

there are 47 separate mono-black cleric cards

>>48163040
>both black and white have religious affiliations

Which means it is both Black AND White. The behavior displayed in the Phyrexian "religion" is still White even if you contend that it is Black as well.

>>48163093
it can be just black, idiot.

>>48163093
>Which means it is both Black AND White.

No, it means it can be both black OR white.

>>48160382
>Literally stealing from green's color pie.
It's only bad when other colors do it, right MaRo?

>>48162820
Except most of them were corrupted minions/zombies incapable of a individual thinking. They were not psychotic devots, they were pawns, killing machines, cannon fodder. Davvol even fancied eating some of his minions. And yes, the thinking ones were in it for power, hence the backstabbing.

>>48163116
>>48163128
Cards featuring those affiliations can be just Black, but the behavior itself is still Black and White. Their ideologies are White, their actions are White, their beliefs are White. Even if the cards don't show it.

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>>48163093
>There's not a Black version of religion.
>>48163093
>it is Black as well

not sure if same anon, but if so

>>48163150
>MaRo
Didn't design it and didn't approve it.

>>48162741
>>48162571
>>48160574
That's because like half of the Titans were not even the most powerful planeswalkers, but just some youngins Urza and other Titans found out of desperation, in order to replace those who left/died, and the fact that most Planeswalkers just said "yeah nah fuck off Urza" and left.

>>48163150
It never was in Green's color pie.
Maro had always compared it to the "Can red destroy enchantments if it turns it into an artifact first?" question.

>>48163169
Religious leaders are Black.
Religious adherents are White.

The reason you get occultists as something a Black Planeswalker can summon is because that's the sort of thing a Black Planeswaker has for servants. Black takes advantage of White ideologies.

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>>48163128
OR black AND white.

>>48162768
So many literally whos in that retarded story.

Here's hoping Liliana doubles crosses the Gatewatch soon and kills at least one of them. I fucking hate the Gatewatch so much.

>>48163223
But Snakeform has been around for quite a while now. It's equally justified in both Blue and Green

>>48163269
I feel like, out of all of them, the one most likely to die is Gideon.

>>48163263
Yeah, but he was an inter-planar smuggler, which is a really cool concept that they will NEVER revisit.

>>48163295
That seems like something that Dack would probably be involved in.

>>48163292
Of course. He's superman. They're gonna kill him so they can res him later.

>>48163249
Yes, we already know Orzhov is like a religious mafia.

>>48163290
You're steal dealing with a creature in snakeform, as weak as it is. Blue is the one that can turn them into non-creatures. In Green you still need to make your elephant step on them first.

>>48160631

>Even in death I still fuck up.
> -Urza

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>>48163245
>The Cabal and the Order really aren't that different. After all, we are both empowered by faith.

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>>48162181
imagine once he gets used to the pain, how angry he is going to be

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>>48163295
This. He was also a voice of reason and a good guy who saved a lot of people sacrificing himself.

>>48163390
Bo had a hard life...

>>48163382
I don't know how much more pissed he can get honestly.
This is starting to loop into infinite pissed here.

>>48163382
its irrelevent, Sorin can't beat Nahiri because he can't change, he can't grow stronger or smarter than he has become.

Nahiri did, she changed and grew, for better or worse, and won because of it.

Sorin is a man who has lived too long, because he has reached his apex, and can't change what he has become, he is like cement, Nahiri grew beyond him.

>>48162521
white can hit planeswalkers and legends for tutor targets.the colors are expanding.

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>>48163245
>Religious adherents are White.
no, they're not

>>48163432
Sorin won the fight, he just didn't finish her off. If Sorin had used his sword at the end instead of trying to drain her he'd have won that's the only difference between him winning and losing.

>>48163295
Wasnt tezzerets operation on ravnica a smuggling operation?

>>48163378
Believing there is a higher power you must submit your will to is not Black.

Believing that you can scrape and grovel for scraps of power from an unorthodox source is reasonably Black.

The bulk of Phyrexians wholeheartedly believe in Yawgmoth as a deity, and his word as divine edict. That is White behavior.

>>48163463
that card must have been bonkers back in it's day

>>48163485
no they don't, they don't believe anything, they were genetically designed to think a certain way.

it isn't true belief.

>>48163498
The current White Phyrexians are in exactly the same boat. This is still White.

>>48163485
>Believing there is a higher power you must submit your will to if it's in your best interest is Black.

FTFY

my argument has been that religion is equally black as it is white in the mtgverse

>>48163536
Literally anything gets to be Black if "it's in your best interests", that's not much of an argument.

>>48160382
*sighs forever*

At they didn't kill her.

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>>48163485
>Believing there is a higher power you must submit your will to is not Black.
literally is, m8

religion = white is a meme

>>48163566
It's hard to take you seriously when "X is a meme" is your supporting argument.

>>48160482
Honestly the stupid art and unrelated to the card's effect flavor text made me dislike vindicate.

>>48163552
that's Black: selfish ambition that puts your own, immediate benefit above all else

the only reason I've been posting is to refute
>There's not a Black version of religion.

>>48162095
It's called a nickname you social outcast.

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>>48163583
why should I seriously reply to someone with such a one-dimensional view of the colors of magic

>>48163485
Black has cults who use religion to gain power for conquest.
White has orders who use religion to gain faith, and only use its power if threatened. Or against other faiths who they dont agree with their morals.

>>48163566
>religion = white is a meme

Is that why it's the first thing listed on the official article explaining the color philosophy of white?

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>>48163597
It's less a nickname and more a rename. Gideon's the guy who decided, "No, my old life is dead. I am a new person now, a better person."

>>48163609
Maybe you should use something more modern.

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>>48163485
>>48163485
Fucking Innistrad had people who devoted themselves to Griselbrand and when he got merked they started looking for something new to worship

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>>48163632
That religiously black flavortext.

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>>48163655

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>>48163655
>>48163663
"I'm not afraid out here, for I know that a higher power protects me."
Quick, name what color this flavor text is from.

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>>48163632
>Maybe you should use something more modern.
I could, but the cults of tourach, gix and later yawgmoth himself were pretty great.

New phyrexia fucked up by making everything just compleation.

>>48163589
That's not actually being religious. That's exploiting religion for your best interests.

The idea of religion is that there are forces beyond your control that are greater than you and must be obeyed or heeded. Submitting because it helps you out isn't the same as devoting yourself to the service of these higher powers out of reverence or belief.

>>48163698
Cool, now look at everything under the post you just responded to.

Can't wait for the pony alters on this card.

>>48163718
>That's exploiting religion for your best interests.

Same.

>>48160719
>The only Karn phyrexia world is New Phyrexia/Mirrodin

Literally every plane that Karn 'walked to after he got his spark has been oil infected. He realized that and the full implications of it in the Time Spiral novels.

Mirrodin is just the only one we've seen so far, and probably converted more easily and thoroughly than most because it was already made of metal.

>>48163432
Willingly? No. Sorin is far too arrogant and far too conceited.

However, being stuck in a state of such agonizing pain that you can't even concentrate on anything else can and will do some very fucked up things to a sentient mind.

I personally await the appearance of Mardu Sorin in a future plotline.

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>>48163698
>worship angels
>white
>worship demons
>black
Bam, black has a religious following.

You can also worship money and get that cream.

>>48163432
>he is like cement
He truly is!

>>48163698
>I decide what religion is
It could also be just a group of assholes who believe being an asshole is the best thing to be and so they praise and worship super-assholes

>>48163742
How is >>48163632 >>48163655 >>48163639 >>48163684
Exploiting religion for power? Go on and explain it.
'The demons are powerful and deserve our worship' is the theme there.

>>48163794
Because they are worshipping the demons to get something.

For example:
>Thraben's pleas fall on deaf ears. Ours do not.

Avacyn was gone. There was demonstrably less to gain from worshipping an absentee. They're calling on demons because they actually get something out of it.

>>48163684
In that case, isn't the "higher power" herself?

>>48162299
this guy gets it

>>48163841
Your being pretty obtuse here. That's like saying "People worshipped the christian god because he promises salvation." or something like that.
They see the natural, undying power and influence of the demons and believe it is to be worshipped. Are Heliods followers not white because they believe paying tribute to him brightens their days?

>>48163842
The higher power is her demon master, who she channels to safety when she gets in trouble.

>>48162521
Blue has had shit like "target land is an island" since alpha, this is just that but it turns lands into anus lands instead.

>>48163893
White is the sort to blindly believe. To say "God works in mysterious ways", or "God has a plan for us all".

Black is the sort to engage in ritual sacrifice because when they do, a demon shows up and kills people for them.

White believes in natural divinity.
Black "believes" in results.

>>48163841
the demons were worshiped while avacyn was present as well. People chose griselbrand over avacyn when they were well aware that she answers prayers and protects.Some religions can just be about worshiping evil like>>48163771

>>48160849
>no one remembers Marit Lage

Negro, Marit Lage was one of the two big non-eldrazi theories of the board for EMN

>>48163841
>If you worship something for gain it is black and not real religion or faith
How is worshipping an angel or a god that promises protection during life and a peaceful afterlife if you devote yourself to them any different from worshipping a demon because he's gonna shit in the soup bowl of that person who you feel did you wrong?

Both promise something in return. Both have their commandments and people choose to follow those commandments because they sit comfortably with wherever their morality lies.

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>>48163939
black also believes in natural divinity
just less benevolent divinity

>>48163987
while on the subject of black cults...

>>48163998
Because you are asked to believe in a peaceful afterlife. You are demonstrably shown a demon murdering the shit out of people.

>>48162741
>Guff
>level headed
Now I know you're not retarded enough to think this, mate.

>>48164037
avacyn visibly protected humans and locked innistrad's monsters in the helavault

>>48164037
They were also demonstrably shown an angel murdering the shit out of people.

And shouldn't you be taking issue with all the green religion? According to your definitions that should all be white too.

>Eldritch Moon
>Eldritch
>Moon
>As in Emrakul gets trapped in the Moon

BRAVO MARO

>>48164057
Yup, that's what >>48164037 is forgetting. The church of Avacyn and their angels performed very visible functions of smiting evil and ensuring you didn't come back up as a ghost.. In what way is it any different to worship Avacyn vs Ohrmendahl up here? >>48163639

>>48164089
Not much past the fact that demons don't seem all that interested in geists.

They are more than willing to drag you back from the grave if they need something from you though.

>>48160382
What's wrong with this? We all knew this would happen from the clues in SOI. No point throwing tantrums over it.

>>48164089
It's a disconnected sort of thing.
The Angels protect you from threats you may never interact with.

The Demons were purposefully summoned to do something or bequeath some power that directly benefits you.

There's a functional difference between passive benefits keeping you from getting into a bad situation and aggressive benefits empowering you to get ahead.

>>48164163
none of that says black can't have religion

>>48164163
>Demons were purposefully summoned
Demons aren't "summoned" on Innistrad or anywhere in MTG, they just sort of "are"
And the people of Innistrad see plenty of angels and very visibly see the effects of the angel's power.
Offering a sacrifice to a demon is no different from offering a sacrifice to any of the pantheon on Theros. Indeed if Avacyn's doctrine said she needed a sacrifice of anything from lamb to your son's foreskin, well that's all basica mono-white religion.

There's no difference between paying to a god of protection or a god of war except flavor, just like there's no difference between worshipping Avacyn or Griselbrand except flavor.

Also >>48164206

>>48164206
Alright, fine. It was a matter of definitions.
I chose to make a distinction between religion and occultism that you are not making, which is fine.

>>48164139
I'm cool with it. It gives an excuse for there to be lingering Lovecraftian weirdness as there's a crazy tentacled god thing locked in the moon.

Nothing like crazy mutated eldrazi cultists trying to destroy the moon to add flavor to a setting.

>>48164273
>Demons aren't "summoned" on Innistrad or anywhere in MTG, they just sort of "are"

See >>48163663, a guy summoning a demon.
I don't mean summoning them as in conjuring them out of nothing, but calling them to you from wherever the hell it is they hang out normally.

>>48164275
>Occultism is the study of occult practices, including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, religion, and divination.
You shouldn't. Religion is part of it.

>>48164299
Alright, that's my mistake, though it's pretty much "Save me demons" much like one would yell "save me angels" except both work in MTG

>>48164273
>There's no difference between paying to a god of protection or a god of war except flavor

Praying for protection is about praying to preserve order and life.

Praying for a demon to come murder people is not preserving order or lives.

White values order.
Black uses order for it's own gain and will destroy it whenever it needs to.

>>48164367
Yeah, flavor. In the end you're still using systematic, ritualized beliefs and traditions to pay tribute, respect, and honor to a being of higher power. Religion.

>>48164443
One is like insurance. The supposed benefit is something you may never need. In most cases, the White approach is honoring their chosen deity because they are a deity and that's it. The protection isn't why they're worshipping them, it's just something they get.

The other is a weapon. You get it because you're going to use it for something. The Black approach isn't about honoring them because they deserve honor, it's because if you honor them, you get a weapon.

That is a difference of beliefs. I was choosing to refer to the former as religion and the latter as occultism to highlight the differences.

>>48164367
>Praying for protection is about praying to preserve order and life.
>Praying for a demon to come murder people is not preserving order or lives.
How is praying for an angel to come murder people any fucking different.

>>48164547
Cause they murder them nicely.

>>48164531
>The Black approach isn't about honoring them because they deserve honor, it's because if you honor them, you get a weapon.
tourach was deified because his followers simply respected him that much

Unconditional, devoted worship is not tied to any one color.

>>48164547
Because those people are trying to murder you and you supposedly don't deserve it.

>>48160382
>Turn to Forest in Blue
GODDAMNIT STOP TAKING ALL THE GOOD GREEN REMOVAL

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>>48164139
There really isn't anything wrong. It's either people whine that they saw it coming or aren't happy with how things resolved. The vast amount of tears over Tarkir losing the Biff Tannen future are still immense. And we still have people bitching that Planeswalkers are cards ten years after the fact. This is just the same contingent making a scene. They'll be back to say Kaladesh sucks and Conspiracy sucks.

>>48163432
Sorin can't beat Nahiri because she's a woman.
Chandra or Liliana will fuck her up.

>>48164681
Or because they're heretics who believe differently than you and need to be converted. By force.

>>48164759
Implying Norn wont do the fucking up

>>48163432
He shall abzan her
Meme her on the face

>>48164764
The point is that there are restrictions to what the Angel will and will not murder someone for. You can't pray to an Angel for protection because you don't like your neighbor and you want them to protect you from having to see his face.

You absolutely can make a sacrifice to a Demon and get him to murder your neighbor for no other reason than because you don't like him and don't want to see his face.

>>48164759
Earth magic kinda trumps fire magic. And with enough prep time, Nahiri shrugs off kill spells. Undead wouldn't be much of a problem either. She kinda fights better than the both of them like all the white PWs are able to. I know it's bait, but it would be interesting to see her just take the Gatewath apart like Ob did in his first round against them.

>>48164743
>the paintbrushes are inked with his blood
I never realized how horrifying that art is. From far away I always thought he just grinded his arms into those tiles until they were exposed, bony stumps

>>48160382
Is this an MLP reference?

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>Great flavour
>Great mechanics
>Great art
>WRONG COLOUR
Goddamnit I love everything else about that card except for the fact that it's one more example of Blue getting Green removal. First Beast Within, now this. Sure, Song of Dryads is better, but fuck me, I just want some good Green removal.

>>48160482
Yeah, the art was sick alright. But I don't think you and I are using that word in the same way.
>>48162865
>Believing Ugin was *afraid*
No. He just wanted to study them. Ugin is a villain. Never make a deal with a dragon. Just watch, the Gatewatch is making a mistake by trusting him. He's going to be the one to free Emrakul. He wants her power.

>>48160764
To be fair, Blue for some reason is the colour of "turn one land into another land".

>>48164891
only if you target a horse with it.

>>48164856
That's Grixis for you. No Green or White mana means they had to get really resourceful with what life they had floating around.

>>48164902
except beast within and song of dryads both don't belong in green

>>48164902
It's not Green removal because it can't hit artifacts or enchantments.

>>48161514
The artbook tells in 200 words what the Forgotten Realms will tell in 2000.

>>48161282
Nissa is just Channel.

>>48164928
Except suck my dick, Blue shouldn't get "Destroy" effects and it shouldn't get non-bounce removal.

>>48164902
>Just watch, the Gatewatch is making a mistake by trusting him
The Gatewatch DON'T trust Ugin.
Jace barely considers him an ally at the conclusion of Oath of the Gatewatch.
Ugin likewise says Jace is "arrogant and unreliable" and refuses any further business with him.
The other three are openly on guard against Ugin, having never met him before and having no love for his belligerent attitude.

>>48164283
>Nothing like crazy mutated eldrazi cultists trying to destroy the moon to add flavor to a setting.
Oh come on. This is Innistrad.
Someone will overfeed their pig and then the cultists will have something new to worship. These people put velcro on their robes so they don't have to stitch on whatever new symbol they're worshiping this week.

>>48164971
It's just Spreading Seas/Turn to Frog.

You say Blue shouldn't get these effects, but you say "suck my dick" when someone points out Green shouldn't be getting creature removal.

>>48165005
>The other three are openly on guard against Ugin, having never met him before and having no love for his belligerent attitude.
That's still too much trust.

>>48165012
Creature removal that turns things into (large) creatures is fitting for Green. Likewise, turning things into resources is fitting for Green. Green should have creature removal beyond Fight.
Blue doesn't need any more removal, and it certainly doesn't need out of colour removal.

>>48164971
>Blue shouldn't get "Destroy" effects and it shouldn't get non-bounce removal
according to what? your tummyfeels? blue doesn't get "destroy" without giving something back, i.e. polymorph and pongify, both of which predate beast within. it also totally gets non-bounce removal. decrementing power, tapping guys down, totally blue. not to mention just gaining control of shit. all three of those have renditions that can be solved just as easily as this: disenchant. this is spreading seas on a land creature or walker.

>>48164971
>Except suck my dick, Blue shouldn't get "Destroy" effects and it shouldn't get non-bounce removal.
Oh, I am sorry! Guess we should just remove cards like Pongify, Gift of Tusks, Turn to Frog,
Rapid Hybridization, etc from the game because WotC made a huge mistake making various non-bounce removal cards since Alpha! Silly fucking wizards not knowing their game better than some anon on /tg/!

>>48165044
>Green should have creature removal beyond Fight.
because you say so? green's creature removal is better creatures, that's the thing.

>>48165044
>Green should have creature removal beyond Fight.

That's like saying "Blue should have enchantment removal beyond bounce". No. No, it shouldn't.

>>48161080
>>48161056
Well now I'm thinking, we sort of beat the Phyrexians once then Karn spread oil around everywhere.

Maybe Jace being affected by the madness will spread Eldrazi stuff everywhere.

Maybe Jace is Ulamog.

>>48165151
Brisela is Ulamog, just look at her arms.
Kozi is the one associated with mental effects.

>>48163432
Sorin can't beat Nahiri because Nahiri is protected by her vagina.

>>48165195
So you agree that Jace is secretly an eldrazi.

>>48165234
The answer is clear then. To beat her, he'll have to go inside her vagina.

>imprison chandra ablaze on the moon
>return all nonland permanents to their owners' hands
>use her -2
is there a more ballbusting play with moon prison power?

>>48165249
Also don't forget how the entire Dimir guild are Phyrexian sleepers

>>48165249
That would actually be great. After the whole exchange between him and Ugin where he got warned it was probably a bad idea to destroy the Eldrazi, it's classic narrative payoff for him to personally suffer for doing it anyway.

>>48165314
Maybe it'll start subtly, like him having colorless in his mana cost for a planeswalker card.

>>48165333
I wouldn't say that's actually very subtle. Colorless costs are only on Eldrazi so far. It might be a better hint for him to exile something when he usually would've put it into your graveyard. An exile-matters theme on one of his cards would be suspicious without committing to it.

>>48161407
nigga, bolas controls minds

>>48165054
>>48165066
>>48165087
>>48165108
>Blue should get all the good effects
The reason that Turn to Frog, Pongify, Gift of Tusks, Rapid Hybridization, shouldn't be in Blue is because they're not Blue effects. They're Green effects. They turn one threat into a more manageable creature based threat. It's not about "bellyfeels", it's about the fact that "Island" is the most played card.
Things like Polymorph (that are entirely based on randomness) should be in Red
Things like Polymorphist's Jest are white effects
Tapping things is primarily white, and Blue should only get temporary single turn tapping instead of things that go through the turn.

Blue is the strongest colour in Magic. That's not even an arguable fact. Blue should not get ALL OF THE REMOVAL.

>>48165611
You are legit retarded, here's your (you).

>>48165611
>Blue should not get ALL OF THE REMOVAL.

Blue doesn't get all of the removal.
It does not get artifact removal.
It does not get enchantment removal.
It doesn't even really get land removal, it can just color wash it.

Similarly, Green should not get creature removal. When you say any of those are Green effects, you are wrong.

>>48165664
Counterspell is literally "Everything" removal as is.

And, yes, effects that turn creatures into other large creatures are a Green effect. If you don't feel that's true, tell me why you feel it belongs in Blue's slice of the colour pie.

>>48165651
Tell me why you feel that Blue should get those effects. Why do you feel that Blue needs them and other colours do not.

>>48165611
>They're Green effects. They turn one threat into a more manageable creature based threat.
that's not green. That's not even philisophically green. green turns its own dudes into new, preferrably better dudes, see survival of the fittest and evolutionary leap, but it does not force a downgrade on others. green believes in the natural order, I eat to become stronger I turn death into growth. getting rid of another creature to make it into something more convenient is at best black/green, perverting the natural order, or *gasp* blue, artificially making its problems easier to deal with and flying in the face of green. green makes itself better, it never, ever makes its opposition worse.

>>48165824
>Counterspell is literally "Everything" removal as is.

>And, yes, effects that turn creatures into other large creatures are a Green effect.

You are incorrect on both counts.

>emrakul defeated on a jacetice league vacation weekend
> absolutely no risk involved for any of the heroes
> people wondering if there's anything in the moon under the heron mark for years
>lol moons just a random yet conveniently placed helvault with a heron mark because fuck you that's why
> literally nothing interesting happens, entire plot guessed months before hand
Do wizards ever intend to do something interesting with their lore or is keeping things boring and forgettable required?

>>48165611
>it's about the fact that "Island" is the most played card.
only if you're using legacy/vintage which includes the time period when blue really was overly strong.

Island has not been the consistently most played land in standard for a while. Modern it's harder to say because the mana fixing is so good that 3-4 color decks show up a lot and so yes a lot of those include blue.

> Turn to Frog, Pongify, Gift of Tusks, Rapid Hybridization, shouldn't be in Blue is because they're not Blue effects
WotC seems to disagree with you, consistently, over a long period of time.

>They're Green effects
green shares this effect with blue, but can at times extend it to hitting the thing blue definitely can't get, enchantments and artifacts.

>>48165611
>Blue should not get ALL OF THE REMOVAL.
Well then it's a good thing blue doesn't have direct damage or destroy effects, the most effective type of removal.

You're being an idiot. Green gets rid of threats by either beating the shit out of creatures or "natures wrath" type stuff for non-creatures. Blue deals with threats by stalling, turning it into something else, or preventing it from being played in the first place. Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and other transform effects are not green. Green doesn't make something less threatening, it just pumps up its own guys until they can steamroll it.

>>48165824
>Counterspell is literally "Everything" removal as is.
only in the sense that discard is everything removal.

So does black have artifact and enchantment removal?

Or does black have the ability to deal with threats, before they are cast. Like blue has the ability to deal with threats when they are cast.

>>48165892
> absolutely no risk involved for any of the heroes
because we know this is true already.
Or do you just mean they didn't kill off a reoccurring character.

> people wondering if there's anything in the moon under the heron mark for years
foreshadowing.

>>48165824
>>>48165664 #
>Counterspell is literally "Everything" removal as is.

Counterspell is not everything removal, if you think it is then you obviously have no idea how control decks work. All counterspell does is, surprise surprise, counters spells. It can't do anything against threats already on the field, blue has the best ways to prevent things from being cast but has a harder time dealing with threats once they hit the field. This has always been how blue works.

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>>48164367
>SATAN I PRAY TO YOU TO ASK IF YOU CAN KEEP THE BAD GUYS FROM ASS FUCKING ME TOMORROW
>I PRAYED TO GOD BUT I STILL GOT ASS FUCKED AND IT HURTS AND SOMEONE TOLD ME IT'S ALL IN HIS PLAN
Satan then proceeds to protect little Jonny's boy hole from getting fucked by killing the buttfuckers off screen. Jonny doesn't know what Satan did or how, just that Satan kept him safe. Jonny is now a devoted follower of Satanism because God let him get buttfucked but Satan didn't.

Buh bam. Religion can be in Black!

>>48165855
Okay. What doesn't get removed when you counter the spell?

>>48165955
Counterspell is just more efficient discard. "Dealing with a threat" is removal.

>>48165845
Except that the spells we're talking about a primarily used to turn 1/1 utility creatures into 3/3s. Also, since Infect was primarily Green/Black, I disagree that Green would never, ever make its opposition worse.
As an aside, does anyone notice that -1/-1 counters seem to have been phased out? Not having -1 and +1 in the same block is reasonable, but -1/-1 hasn't been used since Scars.

>>48165894
Again, why should Blue have those effects? Why does it need that niche filled?

>>48165924
>Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and other transform effects are not green.
"Destroy target creature" should not be printed on a Blue card.
>>48166038
>blue has the best ways to prevent things from being cast but has a harder time dealing with threats once they hit the field. This has always been how blue works.
Not anymore it isn't, apparently.

>>48165611
>They're Green effects. They turn one threat into a more manageable creature based threat.
That's not a Green effect though. Green doesn't weaken their opponents creatures they just buff their own. Green's all about survival of the fittest, and the natural order. Green doesn't make obstacles less challenging, it just gets stronger until it can beat them. Turning a creature into a less threatening version that's easier to deal with goes against that.

>>48166148
By this argument, Green shouldn't get any removal other than Fight, including Enchantment, Artifact, or Land removal. Shit, they should just stop printing Pongify in Blue and make Beast Within 2.0 only target non-creature, non-planeswalker permanents. And probably give White more Polymorphist's Jest abilities.

Imprisoned In the Moon still shouldn't be Blue

>>48166137
>Okay. What doesn't get removed when you counter the spell?

A permanent.

>>48166041
Satan's not going to do it unless he gets something out of it though. You have to sacrifice something to get rewards in a black setup like that.

>>48160382
Why does this not turn them into a Waste?

>>48166373
I'm not sure if you just don't understand what I'm saying or if you're being intentionally obtuse.

When a spell is countered, it actively prevents that spell from taking effect. It removes that threat. Yes, if you let it resolve, suddenly you have a threat that you cannot deal with. That is how it should be. This is why Blue should not get ways to remove permanents other than bouncing them to the hand (or library). It should not have more permanent "Destroy" effects, even if they replace the target with something else. Blue is like the Wizard in D&D. It can apparently solve all of its problems.

Of course, nevermind the fact that Blue shouldn't be able to deal with Permanents so easily; Blue shouldn't be the only colour that gets to interact with spells.
Effects like Mana Leak really should be in White.

>>48166499
That actually would be nicer, but it's supposed to represent the Moon. I don't think we'll get a Wastes this set. I doubt we'll ever really see Wastes again.

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>>48164902
That card is only printed in commander, and its absolutely acceptable in the same format that allows you to play Desert Twister.

Also synergizes with Elven Champion.

EDH isn't about "muh color pie", its about playing any magic card you want. Including Damnation.

>>48166137
>Okay. What doesn't get removed when you counter the spell?
Anything already on the field. Counterspells gets rid of threats before they get played but once it's on the field counterspell is useless. It's not the be all end all removal you're trying to make it out to be. There are ways to beat counterspells and control decks you know.

>Except that the spells we're talking about a primarily used to turn 1/1 utility creatures into 3/3s
Yes and? That has nothing to do with what the anon is talking about. It still doesn't fit greens "survival of the fittest, evolve or die" mentality.

>Again, why should Blue have those effects? Why does it need that niche filled?
Why does Blue need the niche of inefficient removal filled? Because it's a way for Blue to deal with threats on the field without letting it do it as well as Black or Red. Also, why does Green need that niche filled? What is Green lacking that Pongify gives? How is it better than Naturalize or the fight mechanic?

>"Destroy target creature" should not be printed on a Blue card.
Some of the cards say that but what they effectively do is turn your creature into a 3/3 ape or a 0/1 sheep or something. Unless your deck involves graveyard shenanigans there is almost no difference.

>Not anymore it isn't, apparently.
Yes it is because Imprison in the Moon isn't as effective as destroy effect because there's a really cheap and easy counter to it. It's called Naturalize, you may have heard of it. It doesn't permantly get rid of the threat and also gives your opponent an additional resource no matter how small. Kind of like fucking Pongify.

>>48166524
>Yes, if you let it resolve, suddenly you have a threat that you cannot deal with.

Exactly. So it's not removal.

>>48164971
Except no, go plunge in a pool of ass because blue should get every kind of removal

This is not bait :^)

>>48166636
I'm aware that it's only from Commander. Though that it synergizes with Elvish Champion is a meaningless argument.

The issue is that I feel that Song of the Dryads provided a very interesting and flavourful removal option for Green. It's now in Blue, the colour of Draw-Go and Mother, May I? style Magic.

EDH is also the format I care most about, so obviously I hate seeing the Green shit I use getting put in Blue.

>>48166646
>It still doesn't fit greens "survival of the fittest, evolve or die" mentality.
It's not like it fits Blue's "I didn't say you could do that" mentality.
I'd also rather Pongify than Naturalize. "Destroy thing" is not as interesting as "Destroy thing and replace it".
And, yes, I'm aware that it's possible to get rid of Imprison in the Moon. But that doesn't make it any less of an effect that Blue doesn't need.

>>48166668
>Removes a threat
>But isn't removal

>>48166264
You're right, I forgot Greens other form of removal. Destroying artiface, unnatural construct, perversions of the natural order by returning things to their "natural" state. For example, a creature that was transformed or mutated from what it was originally into something like, say, an ape.

>>48166761
>Removes a threat
>But isn't removal

Before you said it was "everything" removal.
Then you pointed out something it can't remove. A lot of things that it can't remove, actually.

>>48166867
It can remove them, though. It removes them before they become permanents. Any permanent can be removed by Counterspell. No other colour has that ability.

>>48167002
>any permanent can be removed by Counterspell
What about lands?
:^)

>>48166761
>>Removes a threat
>>But isn't removal
You're original claim was that counterspell was "everything removal". It's a form of removal yeah, but it doesn't work on all threats.

>The issue is that I feel that Song of the Dryads provided a very interesting and flavourful removal option for Green
Personally I think Song of the Dryads shouldn't have been able to target creatures, although I admit I have no solid arguments for that. It's just my opinion. Aside from that, I do like it and I agree that it is an interesting and flavorful form of green removal.

>It's not like it fits Blue's "I didn't say you could do that" mentality
Blue's mentality is "For Science!!!", or perhaps "I'm smarter than you". It's the color of trickery, cunning, curiosity, and knowledge. It loves to use illusions and deception to make people think something is what it isn't. Altering the form or nature of something is just a step up from that. It requires just as much knowledge if not more to do so and can still be used to trick and decieve. Crazy mutants and mad science are pretty blue as well.

>I'd also rather Pongify than Naturalize. "Destroy thing" is not as interesting as "Destroy thing and replace it".
I can respect that but you do realize that you're saying you want Green to get something that's worse than an what it already has right?

>>48167002
If you want to get technical counterspells can't actually remove permanents. They remove spells.

>>48167237
>>48167202
It removes the threat that a permanent represents before it actually becomes a threat. And unlike Discard, it makes them waste resources first, and you get the information. That is how Blue removal should work. Either stopping a threat before it can happen or playing tempo and tossing it back to the hand so that it has to be played again (where Blue can counter it).

And you can argue that Blue should get these effects because it fits the themes of the colour, but trickery and confusion are just as much Red effects. Especially ones like Polymorph, or Jalira, the Polymorphist, since they involve random chance turning one creature into another. They also involve "Destroy target creature" and "Sacrifice a creature".
You could also just as easily argue that Red creatures should get the ability to redirect damage to themselves because of Love, but that's a White effect.

Blue seems to be the one colour that gets to justify anything it does with narrative excuses, while other colours don't get that.

>>48166396
>buttfucked for eternity in hell
2ez

>>48167002
Yes, that's because you only get one opportunity to counterspell something. You can cast Doom Blade whenever you want but if you decide not to counterspell something then you won't be able to do so later if the situation changes or you decide you were wrong.

>>48167390
Red getting shafted is nothing new. You're right, Red could totally have some card that involves randomly changing creatures or protecting something precious to you, but the effect would still fit blue, it would just be shared with red.

Really Black is the one that gets to do everything and justify it with narritave convenience. Blacks "power at any cost" shtick means it can get effects that belong to other colors just by slapping giving up some life or sacrificing a creature.

>>48161992

I'm so glad you're not in charge of the flavor and design

>>48160382
Vampires are powered by the moon so Emrakul will spread her madness to all the vampires, except one fan-favourite who was recently sealed into a stone prison, removed from the effects of the moon.

>>48167910
The silver moon fucked vampires up though. It was werewolves that ran on Moon power,
At least, that's what I remember from original Innistrad.

>>48163382
>Sorin goes full Mardu and becomes Sorin, Cleanser of Innistrad
>Spends the next few blocks on Innistrad murdering every single monster he can find and taking petty vengeance by murderfucking his way through the entire plane
>Humans mistake him for some new angel and start worshipping him
>Sorin hears you, Sorin don't care, Sorin is busy murderfucking the entire Devil species while practicing for a rematch with Nahiri.
>Sorin does all of this while trapped inside a big ass prison rock
All praise the rolling stone, hunter of beasts!