Pathfinder General

1st for OP is a faggot for making a new thread on page 6.

>>48004825
Thread is on freefall anyways. Wanna stay on the sinking ship? Be my guest.

>>48004815
>Life-centric Incanter with a level in Vitalist for the heal-shunting collective
HEROES. NEVER. DIE.

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Ok, tossing this here again in an attempt to get more feedback. If it's not your thing, feel free to ignore. Sorry it's turned up a few times but I've hit a stalling point where I'm not really getting anywhere further without feedback.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/181xuVW9TAYjZpgWS0q6U4A9SqJZG8CcXGG2lIMwn3Fw/edit?usp=sharing

A Harbinger Archetype based on firearms and alchemical items (Though not limited to them). Feedback is highly appreciated.

Still very much in alpha though. I'm a bit unsure on the damage of Minefield and if the wording of various abilities are any good.

>>48004834
Literally no reason to make a new one until page 9, FAGGOT.

>>48004846
>Literally no reason to make a new one ever because we're nothing but a hotbed of hate and autism
Why do we even still exist

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>>48004840
>Privateer Stalker / Gunsmoke Mystic with Solar Wind, Thrashing Dragon and Veiled Moon

Die! Die! Die!

>>48004872
We form a pool to collect a disproportionate percentage of the hatred and vitriol in the world, sparing someone, somewhere, from being exposed to it. We're all heroes, really.

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>>48004815
>How are you a credit to your party, /pfg/?

I kill everything in a maelstrom of steel, fists and blood.

A good offense is the best defense. Especially if there's nothing left to defend against.

>>48004905
Symphogear: Mecha or Mahou Shoujo?

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>>48004815
I give the party a 50% discount on magical gear.

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Have you given your local blinkling shota a walk yet?

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>>48004910
Rayearth: Mecha or Mahou Shoujo?

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>>48004910
>>48004927
>>48004910
Both. Mecha Musume and Mahou Shoujo.
Same with Nanoha

>>48004911
ironically its to your advantage in that game to sell shit to your adventurer buddies for cheap / straight up give it away so they have better equipment and you can get more loot

fuck everyone else though price gouge the shit out of them, buy shit low sell it high obtain MAD PROFITS

>>48004926
Given that blinklings are toddler-sized, no, I would be arrested, and you should be too.

>>48004933
Rayearth never gets Mecha Musume

They literally have giant magic robots i got nothin

...

GUYS HOW DO WE RUN A RAYEARTH CAMPAIGN

HOW CAN I JUSTIFY MY PARTY HAVING MECHA

Clear Spindle resonance is kinda broken.
At a low, low cost of 4500 gp, you get constant immunity to all mind control and possession effects ever.
How is this balanced?

>>48004942

>HOW CAN I JUSTIFY MY PARTY HAVING MECHA

I dig giant robots!

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>>48004926

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>>48004911
>my DM bans crafting
>50% off on magical loot is broken, son

>>48004961
Awoooo?

>>48004955

>This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

It's 'As protection from evil'

How'd your last session go, /pfg/

Our Kitsune got drugged and molested.
We couldn't protect his fluffy tail.

>>48004987
The resonant effect doesn't say it only applies vs evil and it has no reason whatsoever to be alignment specific. It merely says it functions the same way as protection from evil and that way is "LOL NOPE"

>>48004992

Yes, it works as protection from evil and that way is 'Only vs evil'. It wouldn't reference the spell in how it works if it didn't work as the spell.

>>48005014
>Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).
>Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target.

This is what it refers to. There's no reason for alignment to matter to a god damn Ioun stone.

>>48005020

You forgot the last line of that very paragraph.

>This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

You can houserule otherwise but it says nothing about ignoring that part of the spell.

>>48005032
That is not a part of how it functions.
It's a restriction that is specific to the spell, but makes no fucking sense for the Ioun stone.
Either way, even if that restriction is in place, the resonant effect is stupid strong for the price for PC's in a good campaign or NPC's in an evil campaign.

>>48004955
No slot magic item that do Continous protection against evil is only 4,000gp.

>>48005020
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqq4&page=2?Wayfinder-Clear-Spindle-Ioun-Stone#78

Here you go Anon. It only works against evil.

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>>48004794

A 4th-level peri-blooded tactician can use Collective Defenses as a swift action grant the entire party a stupendously high insight bonus to AC for virtually every encounter of the adventuring day.

Charisma modifier +3 is enough to cover the duration of the average encounter.

>>48005038

>That is not a part of how it functions.

Yes it is. It is a part of the spell so that's how it functions.

>>48005041
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pl9q&page=2?Prot-Evil-FAQ-ruling-and-resonant-Clear#62

This too

>>48005057
But that makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
The Ioun stone has no alignment, it's a god damn stone. It doesn't even have an int score, making it TN for all intent and purposes.

>>48005067
Evil and Good are not subjective in PF, anon.
Its actually a quantitative thing based on the strength of your aura in the eyes of anyone with discern alignment.

>>48005067

So? It emulates the spell, so it works like the spell.

>>48005076
Evil and Good makes no difference for a god damn STONE.

>>48005067
Sure, but Wayfinders are half-understood ancient artifacts reverse-engineered by the Pathfinder Society. You think they want an infinite Protection from Good to fall into.. ANYONE'S hands?

>>48005082

You could say the same for a LOT of magic items that do/don't work for various alignments.

>>48005082
The spell isn't operating based off what the stone thinks.

It's using magic like protection from evil.

Just like a wand of protection from evil doesn't have an alignment, but it still protects from evil.

>>48005082
>Evil and Good make no difference for a god damn HOLY SWORD.
Come off it. Plenty of magic items have alignment based effects. This is just one of many.

>>48005084
>You think they want an infinite Protection from Good to fall into.. ANYONE'S hands?
Based on the general attitude of the Pathfinder Society leadership, I would think that infinite Protection from Good would be great for them, at least.

Hey /pfg/ what would you say is the most difficult AP? My group just finished my campaign and I'm totally burned out after having all of my encounters fucking steamrolled.

>>48005230
And they almost certainly have it and don't want it publicized

>>48005235
all of Paizo's APs are easy as fuck by design save for like one or two.

>>48005235
If you want an AP to be a challenge, you have to modify it yourself. They're built to be easy enough that anyone can complete them.

What would be something good to gestalt with for an unchained rogue who focuses on nonlethal sneak attacks with unarmed strikes (so I can switch between nonlethal and lethal without interruption)? I was thinking Brawler, since it should make my build a lot less feat intensive and give bonuses to stuff i was already going to do. Should I go Snakebite Striker or not bother? I don't know about giving up Martial Flexibility...

>>48005235
I've heard its Rise of the Runelords.

I would seriously reccomend just writing your own encounters if you want shit to be tough.

In groups giant frogs/toads in their various forms are usually pretty scary, since they can capture and seperate the party with their powerful grappling/swallow whole.

Always make sure to have monsters waiting to jump out or be summoned when traps go off. Punish those people for falling into the pit or getting hit by arrows or being paralyzed by immediately ambushing them.

Never, ever, EVER let a caster exist that doesn't have something inbetween the caster and the party. All it takes is one fighter to say "i roll to grapple" and suddenly your caster is completely silenced and his AoO really won't do shit to that fighter. At higher levels flying, freedom of movement etc can fill similar roles but your casters at high level probably already had shit like that.

If your players just kill everything no matter how defensive they are start using monsters that do stuff when they die, like explode. Burn the rich class war now. It can also be worthwhile to use invisibility or incorporeality rather than defenses in these situations, but remember players will adapt to them pretty quick.

Pit traps and webs never, ever, ever get old. Homebrew new versions of the pit trap to continuously harass your players, like reverse gravity pits that take players up or pits that get deeper every turn.

>>48005541
how would you suggest to make them a bit tougher

Just a few more enemies or upping the HP?

>>48005560
>Pit traps never get old
>Make new pit traps
>It is revealed that the BBEG is not actually a runelord
>it is none other than THE HOLECHEMIST! ALCHEMIST OF HOLES!

>>48005546
>gestalt
>gestalting 2 martial classes

At least they are not both full BAB...

Anyway, putting that aside, you should check with your DM if those will even stack. PF doesn't have an official Gestalt ruleset as far as I know, but progressions of abilities supposedly don't stack going by the 3rd edition rules, but that was always somewhat of a murky one.

I think SBS gives up way too much, and is really only worth it for the 1 level dip if you go arcane trickster.

>>48005546
Unchained Monk would still give you some of the feats you need for that build. Cavalier with Order of the Hammer would be interesting but probably not good. Still you could try and teach your horse stealth and make people question how a man on a horse broke into their mansion silently.
>>48005571
Upping the HP would solve literally nothing and should never be done. In most cases adding new traps, terrain features and powerful enemy types would be the better idea. A golem here or there, a devil in another place, a zombie giant animal etc.

>>48005577
Isn't that actually a paizo archetype now?
It looked so bad but it got my dick rock hard.

>>48005235
None of them, really. They're designed so that first-time players running a core Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric (badly optimised ones at that) can beat them without too much difficulty while operating on a 15 PB.

Any halfway competent group will flatten an AP. The vast majority of them can be soloed.

>>48005584
so a few more enemies, maybe vary enemy capabilities when appropriate, got it

>>48005594
Yep. The archetype was the ORIGIN of Holechemist.

It's an alchemist whose entire thing is INSTANT HOLES.

>>48005584
I would but due to character reasons I'm nonlawful I also don't want to steal the existing Monk PC's thunder more than i already do

>>48005610
Its sad that this alchemist's entire raison d'etre is made inconsequential against enemies that can fly or are larger than the hole.

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i try to be the voice of reason among a band of lunatics.
Being the Shortest and having one eye doesn't help in the slightest.

>>48005629
Then do the cavalier thing. STEALTH HORSE. EXTRA NONLETHAL DAMAGE TO PUNCHES! FREE GRAPPLES! Then take Throat Crusher and... is a nonlethal coup de grace possible?

I don't think anyone outside of DSP wants to associate with DSP. DSP doesn't have a strong reputation among other publishers.

Also they did push Ultimate Psionics pretty hard ages ago.

What is this about?

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>>48005631
He's like one of those bizzare batman villains like Calendar Man.

But then you underestimate them and BAM.

HOLE.

So which one of you faggots was the short-bus idiot trying to tell the Dev that their interpretation of their own rules were "Houserules"?

>>48005651
who cares.

>>48005571
Redesign the encounters. Less fights with a single enemy, more fights against either squads of opponents with different roles or powerful enemies with support. It's also probably a good idea to rebuild NPCs instead of using Paizo's (they end up as really gimpy treasure fountains).

>>48005688
yeah i wasn't gonna use their treasure that well but i'm cool with that, more fights with groups, because single enemies are easy to swamp down and kill.

>>48005662
funny thing
Batman Rebirth AKA that new DC reboot, has Calendar Man as a metahuman. He dies over the course of the year only to return stronger and smarter every time. His new M.O. is trying to cause a global climate shift so he can attempt to be reborn more and more frequently.

>>48005712
That... actually sounds kinda cool. Huh.

>>48005720
Honestly, its dumb.
Batman figured that if Calendar Man naturally dies and reborns at least 40 earth cycles, he'd be as strong as superman.

What does the Dark Knight do against such a threat? "I don't kill"

How hard is it to have a AP played gestalt?

>>48004942
>HOW CAN I JUSTIFY MY PARTY HAVING MECHA
The setting already has golems, right?
Scale up the magic involved, and you're good.

>>48005038
>mad as fuck and in denial about how it works.

>>48005631
About that, fun fact: did you know that the Holechemist stacks with Trap Breaker? And that with the Expansive Trap Ability feat one could potentially create a 20-foot tall zone that activates, say, a Force bomb that knocks the target prone? Pr a Void Bomb or Blackstar Bomb that repels the creature to the ground?

>>48005571
Learn how to GM.

>>48005938
that would be the goal yes

I am shit at it

I would like to learn to be less shit.

>>48005949

Listen to >>48005688 then.

Or even better:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit#

You should have a good idea on how to challenge your players. If they're using bullshit exploits stop that shit. If they're using initiators/maneuvers/magic then you need to arm your enemies with that too.

Don't be afraid to make up your own shit, etc.

>>48005977
Sounds good

i'm mostly just using the AP for general plot points and also maps

glorious maps

>>48004846
Oh, how original. You called him a faggot... And would you look at that! You even used caps to show how super mad and serious you were.

>>48005980
That's exactly what they're for too, just templates really. You can re-fluff or re-calibrate them for any story or party level. You should never run an AP exactly as is unless your PCs are using Valeros and the gang.

Can DSP accuse Ultimate Psi of plagiarism? Cos that shit's not on, that's intellectual property theft

>>48006066
>OGL
They can't do shit.

>>48006066
Ult Occult*

>>48006077
That's fucked up

>>48004815
I Golden Lion, Silver Crane, and guardian's shield my friends, with protector familiar being a bro too.
It wasn't enough though.

>>48004991
Our Grippli Druid was melted alive as our Warder dragged my paladin, kicking and screaming, to safety.
Not another dead friend.

>>48004815
Oradin was killed when we all failed Ref saves against a pretty nasty AoE spell.

>>48006097
>gold animal
>silver bird
We need a Bronze fish disc.

>>48006237
There IS no Swim-based one yet... Brass Koi, focused around unpredictable movements and vertical aerobatics?

>>48006237
Copper Carp? Free idea for you DSP devs if you do a Lords of the Mermaids!

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>checking out Mesmerist
>hey what's this trick
>Umbral Shield
>makes the target immune to harmful effects from sunlight or bright light for 1 minute
>MFW

Did anyone have a cursory read of Ult Occult, decide it was fucking garbage and a waste of storage and not bother with it any more?

>>48006273

Hey pfg. does anyone have a list of civic functions that a city would have to administrate over? Things like security, agriculture, and the likes. Need info for a setting I'm working on.

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>>48006247
>Lords of the Mermaids

They're never going to do that because the Lords of the _________ series is all about ripping off World of Darkness gamelines (Lords of the Night = Vampire, Lords of the Wild = Werewolf, Lords of the Mists = Changeling).

In the reviews section for Ultimate Occult, what would happen if anons called the devs out for their bullshit?
Would Paizo wipe all evidence of that because the whinying fat, oversensitive fuckers complained?

>>48006548
why do you care so much

>>48006474
A lot of what cities do today was never dreamed of being possible back in the 14th century

Cities back then basically took your money for the privilege of living there and selling goods, occasionally funded public works projects (sewers and roads) and ran the local military branch as a combination of law enforcement and actual army

>>48004888
hoe does on Roadhog?

>>48004815
How do I diplomancer?

>>48006634
Yeah, cities today only administrate so many things because they are now the arm of the nation-state, an institution that uses its monopoly on violence to justify control of everything. If adventurers exist in a given society, it probably is not a nation state, since they are a walking example of violence the state doesn't control/justify.

>>48006557
Augunas, is that you?

>>48006706
no i just legitimately don't get why you care so much

People that already like DSP are gonna use DSP shit

People that don't like DSP are going to not use DSP shit

So who gives a shit.

>>48005235
Iron Gods anon, Iron Gods.

>>48005235
Don't run APs you retarded fucking shitstain, use your fucking brain and come up with something on your own. If you don't have the creativity and system mastery to make the game exciting and fun fluffwise as well as mechanically you shouldn't GM unless absolutely everyone is completely new and nobody knows what the fuck they're doing.

>>48006945
Are you still fucking upset about those robots that heal themselves and the robots with hardness, grappling and stunning all in one?
Geez anon its just book 1, you don't have to be so butthurt.

>>48007021
I wouldn't be if I could get a fucking group that doesn't fall apart after finishing the first book. Holy shit.

>>48007000
>not using the APs for pregenerated maps and a general plotline

Are you some kind of gay son?

>>48007118
The maps and plots are shit too. /pfg/ just likes APs for the fucking waifu shit.

The waifus are shit, too.

>>48007127
>The map and plots are shit

Eh. They're alright.

Good enough to fix with a better setting. AND BETTER WAIFUS

>>48007021
>>48007032
My gunslinger survived a fight against a 4-armed undead boss by using the healer as a meat shield after 2 others had been killed or knocked unconscious.

Then we got back the next day and discovered it had rejuvenated

>>48007140
Golarion is a great setting. Years of putting up with bland retconned greyhawk (as opposed to the badass old fashioned greyhawk) and forgotten realms/eberron made me really glad PF has Golarion as its core setting, with a huge world of genuine variety, rather than an entire planet with less cultural and environmental diversity than britain IRL.

I mean the new parts aren't always so great but the inner sea world guide and a lot of the older books were great and Numeria is a great example of the strengths of the setting, with a host of different factions and characters operating in the country to provide a backdrop that feels alive instead of stagnant.
>>48007162
THE BUTTON
PRESS THE BUTTON

Anyway my players were fucking terrified of him but managed to get past him without casualties.
Meanwhile the healer stepped onto that spear trap before the ship and had to be brought back to town because all the party could do was stabilize him. He was at the edge of death for several hours. I found it absolutely hilarious the weakest possible trap was a hundred times more dangerous than any monster.

>>48007206
>GOLARION
>GOOD SETTING

YEAH OK.

>>48007216
Not good, great. Birthright tier great.

>>48007232
so which one of Paizo's employees are you?

>>48007254
Paizo hate Golarion, they go out of their way to undo and unravel it. Look at hell's rebels, inner sea races, distant shores or worst of all that mythic worldwound AP that's name escapes me. If i were a paizo employee I'd be talking about how Mengkare is evil and Brevoy is problematic.

>>48007295
uh-huh, yeah sure

>>48007304
Well what settings do you like anon? No copouts like a homebrew setting only you and your friends know about.

I just hope its not something edgy like Dark Sun or hipster like Talislanta.

>>48006496
That's not what they're about. That in mind, mermaid is unlikely for two VB reasons; team doesn't want to subject themselves to water combat, and Alluria already did it very well.

>>48007350
homebrew settings :^)

Not but for real eberron was really the best it ever got.

>>48007350
How is Dark Sun edgy?

>>48007350
Dark Sun gets the closest to D&D's prime source material, Dying Earth.

I still prefer Eberron, though.

>>48004815
>How are you a credit to your party
7th level merciful healer
free empowered spell for all cure spells [heal domain power]
Access to Paladin mercies
healers kits and enough cure potions/scrolls to heal a small army.
took sacred touch [auto stabilize] amd beneficial touch [rerol 1's when healing].

basically im a GM's nightmare:
> you find by the road a dying ma-]
>ah-EM
>[sigh] okey you find by the road a prefectly fine man ...]

>>48007608
But healers are shit.

SHIIIIIT

>>48007465
I don't really understand your "Lords of the X" lines that well anyway... they tend to be really awkward to use unless you are playing a party of all one thing. Lords of the Mists doesn't even provide any real options for player fey that i could see in the playtests, it just focuses on fluff about not-eladrin.

Maybe its just me but Fey brings to mind images of Dryads, Lurkers in Light, Redcaps, Satyrs and Pyxies. Your book is all about sidhe.
>>48007534
I hated Eberron. A lot of emphasis on "you are the chosen one" and the awkwardness of divine magic in a setting without confirmed deities. I guess the trains ran on time though. Sometimes i think Eberron is meant to appeal to people who like WW2-era fiction. Maybe that's just in my head though.
>>48007553
>>48007573
When i say edgy i mean because of how much effort it goes to to justify things being horrible. The way halflings, metal, planar travel and the ruling class are handled are really ham-fisted to me, like it stops being "life is harsh" and becomes over the top. Sorta like how warhammer 40k doesn't stop at "space feudalism is bad and everyone is poor and going to die" it just lays problem upon problem upon problem until you can't take them seriously anymore. I imagine the average person in dark sun would probably just sigh if they lost their arms or something because it really wouldn't be that bad compared to what happened to them every other day of their life. I guess edgy is the wrong word.

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>>48007465
>That in mind, mermaid is unlikely for two VB reasons; team doesn't want to subject themselves to water combat, and Alluria already did it very well.
>mermaid is unlikely

Okay, we'll take merboys instead.

>>48004976
it kind of is if you have no method of keeping the players from using time to craft as much as they like.

>>48007619
>the awkwardness of divine magic in a setting without confirmed deities

I've gotta ask... what awkwardness? Divine magic hasn't come from just deities for... pretty much always, and it's a core part of 3e and 3.5 that divine casters do not necessarily (and in fact more commonly do not) get their power from gods.

What are you on about regarding awkwardness?

>>48005084
in my party that effect accidentally landed on the paladin.

>>48007663
>>48004976
K E E P W A T C H

>>48007668
>pretty much always, and it's a core part of 3e and 3.5 that divine casters do not necessarily (and in fact more commonly do not) get their power from gods
No it's not and I hate how people keep trying to turn this from "you don't need a god"to not having a god is expected.

>>48007660
What about merbutlers?
>>48007668
That is a core part of 3e and 3.5 because ideologies and philosophies are more or less extensions of alignment in greyhawk and similarly have cosmic presence, the assumed 3.5 setting. Choosing to draw power from a concept isn't really the same as drawing power from a deity that isn't real. If eberron divine magic had all been sourced from ideologies that wouldn't have bothered me.

>>48007619
>. The way halflings, metal, planar travel and the ruling class are handled are really ham-fisted to me
Why?

Halfings like to eat, and when good got scarce they turned into tribal cannibals. How is that any more hamfisted than any other group of man eating sapients?
>Metal
It's a postapocalyptic setting, of course high quality weapons are going to be harder to make/come by.
>Planar travel
I don't see how this makes life "horrible" for people or is even all that grim dark.
>ruling classes
Oppressive desert despots are practically a staple of the genre?

>>48007694
Clerics of ideals exist. However, even discounting that, let's look at what divine casters there were:

Got power from gods
>clerics
>favored souls
>divine minds (eww)

Did not get power from gods, but nonetheless still had divine magic
>rangers
>druids
>archivists
>shugenja
>healers
>paladins
>factotums
>adepts (notably, the majority of divine casters in any given setting)
>spirit shamans
>shamans

>>48007750
>rangers
>druids
Nature/Spirit worship is still worship
>shugenja
Spirits
>Healers
Class features mention deities and divine intervention from other entities.
>Paladins
Also dependent on gods
>adepts
Also dependent on gods, they're just not full blown Warrior Priests like fucking Clerics.
>Spirit Shaman and Shaman
Ancestor worship is still worship of something

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>>48007616
>healers
>ever shit
wew lad.

>>48007608
keep it up based channeler.

>>48007736
Its not that those things existed, its how they are handled. Halflings aren't tiny cannibals showcasing the lack of food, they are treated as scary hyper cannibals. Metal isn't depicted as scarce its made into a joke material that is always breaking or going missing and there's no real reason to look for any of it. Cutting off planar travel was just pissing into an ocean of piss, a world can be very desolate without saying "oh and you can't leave even at high level". It's like the authors thought the plane of fire would send aid or something if they didn't close off the planes.
The ruling classes are caricatures, saturday morning villains instead of feudal or tribal lords. Its the same problem as Ravenloft, super powerful magic users ruling over everything you aren't meant to beat and are just there to reinforce that life sucks. Most normal settings have cruel feudal lords, corrupt mayors or whatever else, in Dark Sun they just amp up the power level of those people and make them twirl their mustaches all day.

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>>48004978

>>48007840
>a world can be very desolate without saying "oh and you can't leave even at high level". It's like the authors thought the plane of fire would send aid or something if they didn't close off the planes.
Well they could. It's kinda hrad to make a serious world when there are literally infinite universers for angels and shit to stream in and help people.

And yes, closing off the planes enforces that you can't just run away from the problems of this world and encourages the PC's to actually engage with the world around them instead of running off to some market on another plane when they want shinies or nice place to sleep.

You sound like one of those people that things the world should revolve around the PC's dick and ego.

>>48007802
Paladins are not dependent on gods.

>>48007905
>And yes, closing off the planes enforces that you can't just run away from the problems of this world and encourages the PC's to actually engage with the world around them instead of running off to some market on another plane when they want shinies or nice place to sleep.

This is why Ravenloft is Best Setting.

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>>48004815
What alignment are Overwatch characters? Symmetra is obviously LN with her obsession for order.

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Is it possible to make a trong wizard, that focuses on negative levels? Especially on Enervation spell from level 7+. If yes, how should I do it?

I suppose, I should focus on metamagic reduction (Magical Lineage), ways to make a good ranged attack roll (PBS into Precise Shot) and ways to overcome spell resistance (elf, Spell Penetration, Greater SP). But that's all.

Also, I hope it's still possible to do without becoming specialist in Necromancy? I surely like abilities in conjuration, air and other school specializations more.

>>48007955
Why should we care what alignment they are?

>>48007957
Not in PF, no. Negative levels are, as far as I can tell, pretty much strictly a monster thing. You CAN do it, just... Not well, not in a reasonable way.

>>48007982
>what is spellcasting
>what is soul eater

>>48006634
good to know. So I suppose a small list will do then. Thanks anon.

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>>48007969
Fun things are fun, anon.

>>48007990
Doing it with spells is, by far, less efficient than regular blasting in PF. In 3.5e you'd use Fell Drain and Easy+Practical+Rapid Metamagic on no-save no-SR you-will-get-hit spells, Twinned to double the level output and some other shenanigans.

Soul Eater is fucking garbage. You can only use it once per round because it's a specific standard action to activate, and is not the Energy Drain universal monster ability. The DC can't be stacked short of amassing CHA and using Ability Focus. It's strictly a melee touch attack, and Conductive weapons only work once per round, so short of having 4-6 arms and that same number of weapons (since an AoMF counts as one usage on the first punch), which is prohibitively expensive, it isn't going to do anything.

>>48008022
Jesus christ, can we not? We barely got over Dark Souls 3 and now Overwatch shit is in here. You don't have to D&Dify everything, goddamnit.

>>48007905
What infinite planes? Have you been snorting some unified cosmology or some shit? Not every D&D setting needs to connect to planescape. Angels and shit could well have their own stuff to deal with, or could indeed not exist (either never existed or not exist after the bad shit happened) and that would solve all of those issues.

That's a baseless accusation unrelated to what i was talking about. Its not that the world should revolve around the players, but rather that Dark Sun is a stagnant world. Dark Sun isn't designed to have players face the problems of it, its designed to force players to avoid those problems or contribute to them. At every turn is another disaster or crisis and the tools to deal with it are either limited to NPCs or removed entirely. The reason players would try to escape Dark Sun is that there is no saving Dark Sun, there is no "well I'll fight back against the mages" or "well we can start a farm" or anything like that, its all about rusty dagger shanktown, just now the high level content is also rusty dagger shanktown. It's not that you cant save the world that bothers me, its that you can't even save yourselves.

If i wanted to play something where i cant even save myself i would play ravenloft, because that manages to accomplish that feeling of dread and despair much better and doesn't advertise itself as an adventuring setting, but more of a horror setting. Dark Sun is basically a censored version of Crossed where bad things happen and then we are supposed to pretend bad things happening is a setting.

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>>48007982
>pretty much strictly a monster thing
I found only 3 spells that gives negative levels on wizard spell-list. And two of them - on 8 and 9 levels, so, realistically, it's only one spell. But I hoped it was still possible somehow.

>>48008030
>Sun, there is no "well I'll fight back against the mages" or "well we can start a farm" or anything like that, its all about rusty dagger shanktown, just now the high level content is also rusty dagger shanktown.
Yes there is, you just can't imagine it without easy out solutions like porting people to heaven or making infinite water portals. You need to learn about picking your battles and realizing your PC probably isn't going to live a charmed life unless they break a few eggs. Life in Dark Sun is supposed to be tough for everyone but a few.

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>>48008029
>Jesus christ, can we not? We barely got over Dark Souls 3 and now Overwatch shit is in here. You don't have to D&Dify everything, goddamnit.
It's a setting with knights, dorfs, killer wraiths, wizards and magic. It's already fantasy as hell.

Also, delicious brown.

>>48007982
>maximised (staff of the master (necromancy)) energy drain + quickened enervation
>1d4+8 negative levels in one round no save vs touch AC
>not good

>>48008070
Buhlman gimped Empower Spell for PF also, so Enervate isn't as good even WITH optimization. PF also lacks all the free metamagic options (short of Sacred Fucking Geometry) that make it possible to pull anything off with it.

No, negative levels are best seen as a way to debuff things, not kill them. Even then, 1d4+1 negative levels isn't a strong debuff in the CR 7-11 range.

>>48008095
No, it's the Flavor of the Month, and is dumb. We do it every single time.

>>48008101
>Energy Drain
>9th level spell
>Viable in any real game
>Not just using any other 9th level spell that works better anyway
Okay buddy. Good for you. Enjoy your theorycrafting while we talk about actual games.

>>48008116
HOW DOES I MAKE ORNSTEIN XD

>>48008123
LOL GUISE LET'S MAKE SOLID SNAKE FOR THE 19TH TIME XXXDDDD

Where do you guys even find games, btw?
So far tried the roll20 finder but no luck with that so far.

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>>48008116
>We do it every single time.
Let's do the time warp again.

>>48008116
At lower levels, grab a moderate rod of maximise and a staff of the master (necromancy).
Shoot we^W 1d4+4 negative levels with maximised enervation + quickened enervation.

Psionic alternative:
Grab schism and mindwipe, as well as quickened power, hustled power and either psicrystal containment or deep focus.
Throw 4 mindwipes in a single round, some of them augmented.

>>48008116
>>48008101
Oh, and Death Ward and Contingent Death Ward kill your whole retarded plan, so.

There's that.

>>48008082
You really do like accusing me of being things I'm not.
Its not about just the planes thing, you are focusing too much on that. The planes thing is one straw among many, I'm not suggesting the players should live a charmed life, i am talking about how the setting has hundreds of elements that come together in a clump of "huh see all this shit that works in other settingsor real life? here its pointless and awful!" so reading the setting is like reading an encounter stat spread. Its all about problem after problem after problem and turning everything you know into something evil or wrong. Its tiresome and boring, like reading a gaia freeform roleplay archive, "nuh uh it didnt work" can some up the setting.

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>>48008123
>>48008129

>>48008139
Entire plan foiled by a 4th level spell every Cleric preps.

>>48008144
Anon, you missed the joke so badly you hit yourself in the head with your post. Please see a doctor.

>>48008154
No he got the joke, its just that ironic shitposting is still shitposting.

Just like ironically liking nickelback is still not ok.

>>48008154
>Anon, you missed the joke
No I got it. I'm just fucking bored out of my mind right now.

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>>48008116
Understand. Thank you.
I'll go search for another spell to build around then.

>>48008162
You can incorporate it into your build just fine. Just don't go full retard like Staff of the Master over here and think it's useful for killing things. It's worse than blasting at that - at least with blasting, things consistently die in a round and creature type doesn't matter.

Undead and Constructs just laugh at Energy Drain-centric builds, and so do I.

I'm not a skeleton, I don't know what you're talking about. That rattling's just the air conditioner acting up.

>>48008162
Have you considered Fireball?
Come on anon, walk the Path of Explosions with me!

>>48008144
What is Shitposter's Final Smash?

>>48008142
>a clump of "huh see all this shit that works in other settingsor real life? here its pointless and awful!"
That's necessary whenever you right a setting that isn't "EUROPE DURING THE RENAISSANCE WITH SOME NIGGRS WITH POINTY EARS AND SHORT JEWS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND".

Dark Sun was different than the D&D, "default" by a large margin and hence requires lots of explaining beyond the elves live in the forest and the church of light oversees justice.

Dark Sun is supposed to be a stagnant and harsh world to explore, and it's up to players to make something of themselves in it.

Are there any special considerations that need to be taken for improving enchantments on an intelligent weapon? It's not going to come up for a little while, but I'd still like to be prepared when it does.

>>48008192
Controlled fireball from Path of Intrigue is good.

>>48008162
>>48008184
I'm a fan of Animate Dead-focused builds, since you can make Frostfallen with them as well as normal skellingtons. Frostfallen are a tad more expensive (but with Blood Money + Paladin Wand of Lesser Restoration, that's no issue) to use, and have the glaring vulnerability to Fire going on, but unlike Skeletons, their natural armor bonus simply increases by 4 rather than being a static value, they get a Strength and Charisma bonus (of +2 and +6 respectively! Tanky!) rather than plain Dexterity, and it gains Toughness. No Improved Initiative, but that's not entirely necessary. Unfortunately it explicitly loses all of its original feats, so racially-granted ones don't stick, but it gets Lifesense, which is an absolutely badass ability in my opinion. One step below Blindsight, since it can't find nonliving things.

>>48008235
You may want to ask the weapon. Also, more power=more ego, and you may want to determine if the enchantment is something the sword has power over or the wielder has power over or it's a nonissue. So watch it.

>>48008251
Thanks.

>>48008221
It is never necessary, even for a tragic and harsh setting to just write a massive list of ways to kick sand in the player's face with no redeeming elements.
Dark Sun is like the setting version of "but guys what if we all played level 1 commoners with the NPC stat array". Purposefully removing things until nothing is left isn't creating a setting or making it different, its just shit writing.

That's all dark sun is, the absence of choices. Not a different world in which you have to make different choices, its just basically taking the experience of the standard fantasy orc (ruled by masters so powerful he can never fight them or create a society independent of them, has no food, has no knowledge that could help him improve things, has no prospects of ever acquiring working equipment, everyone he knows also lives this life) and making it the only option in the setting for everybody.

>>48008192
With that feat that lets you change the element of your spells? I love that one but well, i never played mages since i mostly DM...

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>>48008192
I don't like fireballs much, sorry.

>>48008249
>Animate Dead
Isn't it's better to use as a cleric? Because it's one level lower, if anything.

>>48008299
>independent of them, has no food, has no knowledge that could help him improve things, has no prospects of ever acquiring working equipment, everyone he knows also lives this life) and making it the only option in the setting for everybody.
Except you do have them, it's just a lot fucking harder and it won't come after a week of killing canon fodder.

>>48008324
Well, yeah. I usually go with Juju Oracle, actually, since Create Undead is a much better alternative to Raise Dead once you can cast Enervate along with it via the Lore Wandering Spirit from the Spirit Guide archetype. Plus making Fast Zombies with max HP per HD and having way more of them at a time is great.

I also advise you to check out the PF conversion of the Dread Necromancer: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353181-Dread-Necromancer-Pathfinder-update-(WIP)

Ignore the archetypes, they're broken.

>>48007021
Furkas Xoud will make sure your campaign dies.

>>48008324
Is that a gritty-realism Shy Guy?

>>48008339
Its hyperbole. I don't think the loot thing is the most important thing here, I am more talking about the way futility is handled in Dark Sun. Futility is pushed too far in dark sun, to the point where it would make more sense to kill everyone than to save anyone if you want to remain good because of how much people will suffer and how little hope there is. A world of starving people lacking in metal weapons ruled by tyrants isn't the issue, its the fact that even on a small scale you aren't supposed to fight those issues, but rather just to accept them as utterly inevitable like breathing or aging.
>>48008357
Evil Oracles can also make Onyx Spears to help the party turn themselves into Juju Zombies for the stat benefits. Most party members don't trust you not to raise them as undead slaves for some reason...

>>48008429
Oh, shit. Onyx Spear is a cheaper jujufication than the ritual I'd used for myself before. Thanks!

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>>48008357
Yep. But I wanted to make something thematic out of wizard. Or sorcerer at the worst

>>48008396
Probably it is.

>>48006729
I don't pretend to understand the Ultimate Occult debacle, but I would use it over psionics only because I can't be bothered to keep track of spell slots and power point separately. In fact I really wish every class ability could just use a pool of points rather than keying off spell slots, uses/rounds per day/encounter, and X pool of points. It's pointlessly overcomplicated.

>>48008554
If you dislike Spell Lots why use the system based in spell slots instead of the one designed around a Point Pool?

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>>48008286

>>48006729
Personally I hate seeing the vancian casting system used more. I much prefer the power point system to preparing spell slots.

>>48008581
>>48008595
The vancian spells are not balanced around spell points. You would need to adopt the other game balance innovations of the psionic rules like augmentation. At that point you might as well let all spells be over/undercast and structure them into "spell trees" to keep straight.

>>48007802
>Nature/Spirit worship is still worship
You've cast animate objects on the goalposts. The objection to divine casters in Eberron is that without gods, they're awkward. Worshipping nature or ideals, or getting your power from spirits, is something that DOES fit in the setting (and how divine casters there work), and isn't awkward at all. Deities are a very specific thing.

In any case, let's go through the classes, shall we?

>Cleric
Dependent on gods, but also can have clerics of ideals. For the sake of argument, I'm going to discount those. Can fall if they piss their god off. Still:

>"If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies." (PHB p.32).

This is not a variant rule. This is just a rule.

>Favored Soul
Requires a god, cannot get powers otherwise. Can fall if they piss their god off.

>Divine Mind
Inexplicably gets psionic power from their god. Can fall if they piss their god off.

And for the non-godly ones:

>Adept
>"Reflecting a lesser knowledge of magic yet an intriguing combination of arcane and divine skills, the adept serves these cultures as both wise woman (or holy man) and mystical defender."

Does not get their power from gods. Is not required to worship a god. Cannot lose their power for pissing a god off.

>Bard (UA, p. 50)
>"Not all bards are arcanists; some derive their special powers from a divine tradition."
>"Like druids, paladins, and rangers, divine bards need not designate a specific deity as the source of their spells."

No specific gods, just divine traditions. Can't lose powers for pissing a god off.

(continued)

>>48008712
I never said they were.

>>48007802
>>48008718
>Druid
>"A druid reveres nature above all. She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself or from a nature deity. The typical druid pursues a mystic spirituality of transcendent union with nature rather than devoting herself to a divine entity."

Some druids get their powers from gods, but most do not. They just get their magic from nature itself. They don't even have to worship it, just respect it and follow a particular philosophy. They cannot fall by pissing off a god, even then, though. Just by breaking their oaths.

>Paladin
>"Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough."

Paladins explicitly do not get their powers from gods.

>Ranger
>"Though a ranger gains his divine spells from the power of nature, he like anyone else may worship a chosen deity."

Rangers get their power from nature, but do not necessarily worship it. They do not get their powers from gods.

>Shugenja
>"the shugenja is a divine spellcaster who casts spells by attuning himself to the primal energies around him and focusing such energy through his body to produce magical effects" (CD p.10)

Shugenja have nothing to do with worship at all. They're just divine casters who get their magic from the world around them.

>Spirit Shaman
>"Master of the spirit world, the spirit shaman follows a different divine tradition than the cleric or the druid. Her world is filled with powerful, living spirits, some helpful and some malign. By bargaining with these spirits, the spirit shaman gains power over the natural world and mighty divine magic with which to aid her comrades or smite her enemies." (CD p. 14)

No gods here. They get their power from magical deals with random spirits. No worship either. It's just a transaction.

>>48008730
>>48007802
>Shaman
>"The shaman offers sacrifices, prayers, and services to the spirits, and in return gains the favor of patron spirits who bestow spells and other magical abilities upon him." (OA p. 22)

They do worship, but it's not gods. They just talk to spirits and please their egos until they get free magic out of it.

>Healer (MH p.8)
>"While good-aligned clerics are called upon to heal, their complex obligations and abilities often get in the way of pure solace and remediation."
>"Healers sometimes clash with clerics, since clerics represent a more dogmatic view of faith and reverence toward the deities."
>"Religion: Healers revere good-aligned deities or righteous causes"

Their fluff text mentions gods and clerics, but goes out of its way to point out that healers /aren't/ clerics. They also, like many other divine casters, can't lose their powers by pissing off a god. Just by violating their own personal code.

>Archivist (HoH p. 82)
>"An archivist is a wielder of divine magic, similar to a cleric only in the type and nature of the magic at his command. Indeed, the archivist has more in common with the wizard than he does with the standard servant of the divine, due to the scholarly way in which he collects and maintains his spell selection. Archivists seek out esoteric sources of divine lore, wherever those sources might be, securing those secrets for themselves and their fellow scholars."

No worship whatsoever. No gods. Explicitly only similar to clerics because they also have divine magic.

>Mystic (DCS p.47)
>"Mystics are spellcasters who have learned to channel divine energy without worshipping (or even acknowledging) any deity."

Welp. Pretty clear-cut there.

That's all the base classes. Of the divine magic base classes, three require gods (one of which can go without), and eleven do not (one of which can get their power from gods). Any questions?

>>48008754
I have a question.

Who gives a shit? Needing a god or not is highly GM-dependent.

>>48008718
As the person who made the original objection, I've clarified several times what i meant was that whilst theres nothing wrong with divine magic stemming from concepts, there IS something wrong with worshiping gods that dont real and still getting powers.

>>48008779
Except that divine power comes from a multitude of sources and even in core 3.5 you can be a cleric who worships an idea, not a real being or concept.

>>48008776
I do. Seems like the other guy does, or he wouldn't think that eberron's handling of it is awkward. Xkcd 386, etc.

>>48008819
There is no such thing as core 3.5, its called greyhawk. Yes you can worship an idea, but you can't worship a fake god!
Eberron divine magic is all about fake gods! Its about worshipping things that dont exist! Nobody is denying its okay to have idea based faiths rather than deity based ones, its about how eberron handles deity based ones!

>>48008779
Ur-priests have a fluff adaptation that allows them to worship dead gods and still gain their spells. Dead gods have as much power as non-real gods

>>48006634
What would a cities council members be made up of then? I assume something similar to GoT? I was hoping for something akin to ravnica guilds, or eberron dragonmarked houses. Powerful individuals who hold sway over specific industries within the city walls. Anything like that?

>>48008846
Fake gods... ARE ideas, anon. Quite literally in fact.

>>48008849
Thats not got anything to do with Eberron (where ur-priests arent supposed to be a thing) and nobody anywhere says dead gods have as much power as non-real gods!
Even without being an Ur-Priest in forgotten realms and greyhawk you can still gain power from dead gods from a ton of sources, because even the corpse of a god is still very powerful!

This is like saying we don't need water because somebody you know worked out how to gather the last few drops in the bottle more efficiently!

>>48008754
> holy man
Gods
>Druid
>Just by breaking their oaths.
So pissing off Nature, which is a god in this context. The authors are just retarded.
>Rangers get their power from nature
A God
>They get their power from magical deals with random spirits. No worship either. It's just a transaction.
That's basically obfuscated worship, m8. Just like Clerics of Evil gods do.
>They do worship, but it's not gods
Great spirits are basically deities/other living entities.
>Just by violating their own personal code.
They get get rewarded and punished by a group of gods vs just one. Read it's class features they are still god dependent.
>Archivist
Still needs scrolls made by Clerics to get his magic, he's more like an UR -priest mimicking spells.
>Mystic
Fair

>Any questions?
Do the people who make 3.5 supplements and obscure base classes not know what the fuck "divine" means?

>>48008881
You can do it in FR as a standard cleric, you just need a feat.

>>48008880
Its not the same thing! Divine non-deity faiths still have to draw from a powerful ideology or concept, something that (similar to alignment) has a cosmic presence!
Gods that arent real have no cosmic presence!

Please don't give me a speech about what if a mortal tricked all the gods into believing there was an even bigger badder god and they all feared the fake god would that be cosmic presence blah blah.

>Still struggling to get into character
>PbP moving at a rapid pace, at least two huge DM posts a day
>Got a lot of shit about to go down in three weeks, game is causing more stress than fun
>Taking hours to write posts that feel clumsy (to me) while other players are whipping out quality in 30 minutes flat
>Besides it all, one of the players is really fun both IC and OOC, and we've been talking all about how our characters will be all sorts of buddy-buddy.

Should I just leave? The game's just more work than play, but I don't want to abandon the other player and their character.

>>48008904
And if you believe in that ideology strong enough you're being empowered by the ideal that the "god" espouses.

>>48008884
A "god" in the context of d&d is a very specific type of cosmic entity. Nature as a concept is not a god any more than alignment is. If you want to say that it's a religion, sure, but it's not a god. Nor are spirit entities that are bargained with, any more than a binder's vestiges are.

The archivist also can get scrolls from the rest of the casters, so...

Regarding the definition of "divine," all it means in the context of d&d is 'magic from somewhere other than you, often through spiritual means.' It does not mean gods.

>>48008936
That's still incredibly awkward, its basically the inverse of forgotten realms "ideal" worship, where worshiping an ideal means gaining a bit of the power from each god that supports that ideal. It would have been easier to just write the setting as having ideal based faiths to begin with.

>>48008971
Archivists can also get scrolls from other Archivists since they learn a number of spell all on their own.

And if we're going to nitpick, it's Arcane magic that is cosmic in origin. Divine is a rather ambiguous and muddled term that might as well be just the name for a method of casting than anything else.

>>48008933
> The game's just more work than play
Maybe, keep it simple? Shorter posts, different post construction, slightly different angel of a character.

>>48004815
Hey /pfg/. I'm trying to salvage Words of Power. I found a couple of 3pp with much needed new words, but the system itself requires some fundamental adjustments.

The house rule I'd introduce is that effect words are not arbitrarily limited in their target word unless the target would make no logical sense.

Class word lists would be discarded. Instead, each class to limited to casting specific word types, such as healing being restricted to divine classes and witches.

Any criticism or suggestions?

>>48008994

I thought about it, but the DM has made it absurdly clear he despises short replies, and I'm getting dat peer pressure from the others to perform.

>>48008029
>if i cantt kill an enemy in a round the ability is garbage.
what kind of mosters are you fighting that net penalties wont win you the fight faster than a measily 100-200 damage a round?

>>48009054
I think you should try to find a way to make your posts simpler to write for you. To change the nature of them, text structure, manner of presentation of thoughts.
Sorry, I can't clearly express my idea 'cause I'm not a native English speaker. But anyway, I suggest you to try and adapt, maybe even using it as a way to improve your writing skills, rather then avoid otherwise good game.

>>48009168
What kind of games are you playing where 200 damage is measly.

>>48008101
You're using a 9th level spell for a single-target debuff. And by the time you can do that, lots of enemies will be simply immune.

We may soon be facing a threat capable of stealing souls. How can we prevent that?

>>48009295
Death Ward.

whats the fastest/best way to get to using an oversized weapon without any negatives?

>>48009295
Use the finances from your adventure to purchase or build some constructs and have them fight him instead! Then take the surplus treasure (the treasure beyond that which is required to break even with the cost of the quest) and decide how to distribute it yourselves despite the constructs having done all the work. Then be killed by the constructs after they obtain a class and consciousness and they begin to seek a world in which adventurers are entitled to all they acquire! HIRELINGS OF THE WORLD UNITE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR NPC STATUS!

>>48009180

This is making a lot of sense to me! I'll make this a chance to improve my writing skills, and if I'm still as stressed and stumbling by Friday as I am today, I'll consider bowing out. Hopefully these strings of long, detailed posts are just the DM and players trying to lay out the scene, rather than being some indication of how the campaign is going to be.

Because oh my god, I'm not writing 300 words to describe my character trying to stab an Orc.

>>48004815
Just started playing a medium, only had a mini-session so far.

Not much supporting yet, need at least one more level before I can start actually doing that, though I did sneak into a place and slit a dog's throat so we could enter undetected. +10 stealth on lvl 1 ftw.

>>48009343
With 3pp or without?

With I think it's Aegis. Powerful build + augmented weapon or powerful build + increased size, depending on if you want virtual size increases or actual size increases.

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So for reasons I'm not going to divulge too far into, I've been granted four staves of my choosing in a level 20 game. Normally staves are "Those things that are way overpriced for what they do and belong in the trash", but these are freebies and I'm stumped for getting the most out of this.

What are some actually good ones?

Class is Oracle if it matters.

>>48009343
Be a tiefling, use the fiendish heritage (if your gm agrees, you can get them for free since aasimar does while tieflings have to drop a feat into it), get nr 16 on the Tiefling variant abilities: "You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."

>>48009401
No 3PP. and without growth.just a regular medium using a bigger large+ weapon

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>>48009453

Why are those Fiendish Heritages so damn good?

>mfw I'm playing a Fire Keeper Tiefling that can survive off dust and ashes.

>>48009402
Staff of Power, Staff of Power, Staff of Power, Staff of Power.

>>48009518
Oh, sorry, put a Staff of the Magi in there instead.

>>48009461
In that case it's pretty much this >>48009453

Titan Mauler can also help you wield one category larger than normal but the archetype is trash the last time I checked.

Is there something similar to reserve feats from 3.5 in PF?
Specialist wizard abilitie aren't at-will and almost not scaling with level.

So, hey guys, anyone got a game with an open spot?

>>48009368

Anon, consider the future in your decision as well; you have something happening in three weeks, yeah? Will this keep you away from the computer? If you're struggling to post now, you'll be unable to post later.

Now I'm not saying you should quit, I'm saying you should evaluate your position in the campaign. I'd rather spend three weeks of relaxing and mentally preparing myself for "a whole lot of shit" than try and reinvent my writing style for a campaign I'm not liking beyond the presence of a player I already know beyond the campaign.

>>48009736
No, thank god, there are not.

>>48009804
The only reserve feat I remember people talking about was the gish one to get 20temp hp every round or some such.

>>48009001
I have no suggestions, but I approve of everything WoP related. Good luck.

>>48009804
>thank god
why? You don't need to take what you don't like. Or was you one of those, who thought that reserve feats were overpowered?

>>48009873
No, I think he means thank god they don't exist so he doesn't have to constantly explain why they're shit.

>>48004991
Our GM had us playing the Bloodsworn Vale module for some time. We finally finished it and the party were named lords and given control of the place.

Now I can set up my army and go Kazuhira Miller on the people who wronged me.

>>48009888
There are plenty shit-feats in PF, so it's hardly a concern. Ofc, reserve feats wasn't good from optimization p.o.w, but different groups have different level of optimization and sometimes you just can take anything to balance something as powerful as a wizard. And that feats gave you ability to do something "magical" without being powerful.

>>48009977
>POW
Point of what?
POINT OF WHAT, GUY!?

>>48009990
prisoner of war, ofc. I meant "point of View".

howdy anons. back again to post updates to my PoW city setting. Work is still comin slow, but ideas are starting to take shape at least.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lfx-gM2Lr0B5X5p0SP1bxvjxxPCtI5_kRuDMJRDFJxU/edit?usp=sharing

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LtYsahSguJ3ZL9FrrRSKkIbXpadawQBtUL6pJQCoAEk/edit

Finished the Occult Detective archetype. I'd like to see what people think about this.

Dear /pfg/,

The Psychic Armory Soulknife is cool but I have no idea how the fuck to build or play one, and there's a lot of confusing shit in there (like, does having that many weapons actually do anything?). Anyone have a sample build or something?

>>48010632
Put everything into Wisdom, have fun.

>>48010491
It better has a "traditional ozark folk art walking stick" proficiency.

Planning on making a wizard that controls undead and plant creatures and so far I used up most of my feats to create them.

Would it be a bad idea to use the alt. profession rules to have a shipping/mining company with a secret undead/plant creature labor force up in basically fantasy Siberia?

The real purpose of said company is to finance my magical research and development of golems and shit.

>>48004815
I heal ability damage and use air/earth bending to help my team get over obstacles, close corridors, etc.

>>48010676
Quarterstaff should count as one of those.

While dragon riders are cool how would one balance them for a class? Dragons are not only enormously powerful, but intelligent, and may in fact have more skills than the actual PC in question. That being said how does one justify any intelligent creature as a mount? How does one justify giving it as a class feature narrative wise (if gained past level 1).

>>48010770
In this case, I think it'd be a good idea to give the dragon rider a young dragon, or some kind of "drake" that is non-intelligent until a higher level.

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>>48007884

>>48010831
Sure, but it still amounts to a cohort, which are always in a grey area. I've been wracking my brain on how to give cavaliers these things AND allow them to have multiple mounts. However I just can't stop seeing cavaliers who will have intelligent creature mount skill monkeys. Which in my opinion is not in theme for the class.

>>48010770
Well. I see this as I see how I would, but have yet to put on paper, redo the Cavalier.

Each Cavalier - or, really, let's rename it the Knight, since that's what it is - has his respective Supernal Lord, an immensely powerful supernatural being that grants a measure of power and servants to the Knight, much like medieval lords and jarls and so forth IRL awarded their favored knights with rings, steeds, arms, and so forth based on their deeds.

Each Lord has a Mission, based on the Outsider subtype or creature type they belong to, and a Rival, another Supernal Lord they most often conflict with. Like a Paladin's Oath, Knights lose their class features if they directly go against their Lord's wishes; however, the Supernal Lords are so damn busy all the time with important Supernal Lord things that their wishes are fairly ambiguous. Each Lord also has two Allies, other Supernal Lords they often work with, and a number of Vassals, lower-ranking individuals with power, but not as much power as they, under their control.

The Knight's choice of Lord determines a number of things. Most importantly, his mount choices and discipline options - Early on, it'd primarily be various animals with a simple template attached, but as things progress, more mounts would become available as the Knight gained levels and, accordingly, status among his Lord's Vassals.

The Knight would also gain numerous other class features, called Fealties, and they'd be a bit like Mysteries and Revelations - every other level, the Knight gets a static, unchangeable class feature that all Knights (or at least most) share, and every level aside from that, the Knight gets to pick a Fealty from a list of options that expands as he gains the support of another Vassal. However, the Lord's Allies are important, too - The Knight can pick Fealties from his Lord's Allies' lists as though he were a Knight of either half his level.

The mounts would have stats based on Druid pets, loosely anyway.

>>48011044
While this sounds cool I honestly don't like the idea of just packing a martial full of Su abilities. I think they should be beholden to mortal lords, not extraplanar ones. This just makes them different Paladins in a way (hell Paladins get divine mounts if they feel like it).

>>48011044
Another thing. Having specific lords/vassals with their own tracts of prestige makes the class pretty setting dependent. Something cavaliers already have an issue with.

>>48011101
Supernatural, not Extraplanar.

Seelie and Unseelie Fey, powerful Wizards, Great Wyrm Dragons - anything roughly CR 20 or so and magic would work.

The Knight's capstone would be to pick his own Rival, Allies, Vassals, and so forth, because he becomes one himself, having surpasses his Lord, and gains all of the abilities thereof.

>>48011118
Not at all. You don't give the lords specific names; you make them generic. Archetypes, if you will - after all, two Knights that have an Infernal Lord might have different individual devils as their Lords, or might even have the same Lord and come into conflict by carrying out their Lord's Mission in a different way.

That does put a lot of work on the GM's part for who the Lord is, but it's easy enough to leave it vague and mysterious - the Missions would be fairly vague and ideological in the first place - and fill things in as it goes on.

>>48011044
Meh. That sounds too close to "Paladin without alignment restrictions" thematically.

>>48011177
>Seelie and Unseelie Fey, powerful Wizards, Great Wyrm Dragons - anything roughly CR 20 or so and magic would work.
Ah ok. The orders (what they get their fealties/oaths/what ever from) could be made ambigous enough so that it's more:
"This is the fey one" and "they is the draconic one" so you could fluff you actual lord yourself.

>The Knight's capstone would be to pick his own Rival, Allies, Vassals, and so forth, because he becomes one himself, having surpasses his Lord, and gains all of the abilities thereof.
While cool this would be next to impossible to stat as a cap stone, and should be done through roleplay not class features. "Get a kingdom" as a class feature as always struck me as stupid, but I can see other people like it so I don't know.

>Not at all. You don't give the lords specific names; you make them generic. Archetypes, if you will - after all, two Knights that have an Infernal Lord might have different individual devils as their Lords, or might even have the same Lord and come into conflict by carrying out their Lord's Mission in a different way.
Yes, I'm understanding your point more now.

>That does put a lot of work on the GM's part for who the Lord is, but it's easy enough to leave it vague and mysterious - the Missions would be fairly vague and ideological in the first place - and fill things in as it goes on.
This always seems as if it would run into all the Paladin problems of "lel you fall", and as well the entire "get vassals/rivals/allies/etc" as class features put a ton of work on the GM and is not suitable for some campaigns (sometimes the GM doesn't want you to have enormous resources to call upon inherent to your class).

So I am unsure. I will have to think on it for the draft.

>>48008429
Love how you forget about Tyr

>>48011245
I agree to a great deal. It becomes "Paladins without spells" and does not fill as much of a thematic niche as it should. Cavaliers being martials should not just be packed full of Su abilities but instead be very good at their Ex ones. Hell, cavaliers are one of the best classes set up to have good out of combat Ex abilities that fit their theme.

>>48011101
>>48011245
>>48011284


I'm also of the opinion that Paladins and Cavaliers should never have been separate things, and that they are is a legacy issue. Them having spells or not is just a matter of mechanical preference; it makes more sense to me for martials to have all-day or nearly all-day abilities, and Path of War does that nicely. The difference between a Paladin and a Knight with a Lawful Good Celestial Supernal Lord that grants Silver Crane and Golden Lion is rather trivial, in my opinion, and commoners would probably mistake the latter for the former or vice versa depending on what they see the most.

I don't see Cavalier as 'Guy on a horse who hits stuff', I see Cavalier as 'Guy on a thing that carries him around and fights with him for someone or something larger than himself, for personal gain or otherwise'.

While the traditional idea of a knight in fullplate on a horse is fine and good, I like to think PC's are a little more exceptional than that (they're the only ones with a point buy or rolled scores, after all, besides key NPCs really), and as such have more exceptional options, once they've earned them.

>>48011259
Nah, it's not 'get a kingdom' as a class feature, it's 'you are a powerful enough being that other Knights have started to serve you'. Supernal Lords don't necessarily have to be rulers of anything, so long as they're sufficiently powerful, supernatural beings with some sort of agenda.

As for the 'enormous resources', those resources are represented by your class features. Vassals & etc. are just the names for them, your power's granted by a vague connection and allegiance to them that manifests supernaturally rather than through a contract with a signature and a handshake - though much like a Cleric changing deities, a Knight could change Supernal Lords (IE: retraining) with GM permission and, in my games at least, a sidequest to earn the new Lord's trust.

>>48011392
See, I think the problem is coming from you're not being clear about what you actually want any of these class features to do. You're throwing around ideas and being misinterpreted, because your ideas may be intentionally vague.

> I like to think PC's are a little more exceptional than that (they're the only ones with a point buy or rolled scores, after all, besides key NPCs really), and as such have more exceptional options
No, that's literally the face they have PC levels at all. NPCs are warriors, PCs are Fighters/Cavaliers/Barbarians/Etc.

>>48011392
Eh, I disagree. If you want more Paladins, just bring back Paladins of tyranny/freedom/what have you. Since it exists, Cavalier should be different enough from Paladin, both mechanically and thematically, to justify its existence.

>>48011392
I disagree with this sentiment. You just want paladins, not a knight. Honestly while this is not a grossly infuriating opinion to have, I do not share the opinion.

Fighters are "Guys who fight very well", and that's fine if they were upgraded to be better at it. They don't need a supernatural lord to help them fight.

Sometimes you want to play a character who DOESN'T rely on a supernatural force.

>>48010707
I didn't know there are alt. profession rules. What book are they from?

>>48011456
NPCs can have normal base classes and still use the Elite Array. Most do, actually, at least the pregenerated ones that aren't unique.

There are no PC levels, just classes PCs shouldn't take because they're meant solely for NPCs.

>>48011476
Paladins of tyranny etc. are great, but too limited a concept, in my opinion. Why can't a guy very specifically serve and/or worship an extremely powerful Fire elemental and gain Fire-related stuff from it? Why just alignments?

I'd rather incorporate Paladin as a subtype of Knight and get rid of the idea of Paladins and Cavaliers being different. Antipaladins and Samurai too, for that matter.

It'd also establish a set of class features that other base classes could use an archetype to obtain in a limited fashion, much like how other classes can gain Druid companions at their level - 3.

>>48011507
There's also the matter of mortal lords in most settings not really ever reaching the point where they can compare with supernatural entities on a meaningful level. Your average baron's level 5, level 8, tops.

As I mentioned above, using better mount rules that would have to accompany the Knight class as archetype material for the Fighter to give him a decent mounted combat option (compatible with Myrmidon, of course) without having to serve a Lord as a Knight would is one of the possible applications.

I really should put this on paper, but with the number of lords and vassals etc. required it'd take a good deal of time.

>>48011044
Personally i thought of something similar once, but it wasn't about swearing fealty to a lord. Knights swear to uphold a very arbitrary code that represents "heroism" to them, spirits, fey, outsiders etc tend to watch Knights for entertainment and provide him with power so long as he acts like a "true hero" by their insane standards. I dunno its like a reality TV star.

>>48011507
>Sometimes you want to play a character who DOESN'T rely on a supernatural force.

I also want to comment further - you can't play Pathfinder and not rely on the supernatural. Everybody ever needs magic items, it's how the game's structured; it's not meant for purely mundane play, and falls apart quickly if you try. Not to mention, what is Ex for PF characters is Su for us IRL; the only real distinction is whether or not it makes sense for an ability to work in an AMF or not. The game's chock full of supernatural and fantastical elements. Heck, Psionics is entirely a reliance on the supernatural, but for Psions and Wilders, YOU are the supernatural entity, and your power source is an internal one; you're relying on yourself, proving that all Humans do, in fact, have some supernatural potential and are, inherently, supernatural beings on some level.

Food for thought.

>>48011585
I mean, fluff is fluff. You could take my idea and do that with it, the way I have it planned out. I'll probably start writing it up in a google doc later tonight, it's been awhile since I visited the idea. I don't intend to bring it up again until I have something concrete and presentable, though, because as one anon said, it's a vague idea at the moment and that's all.

>>48011523
Unchained and on this site
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/alternate-profession-rules

Basically make a profession check - employees + any buffs to profession. The end result is multiplied by your profit factor and that's how many GP you get per month.

Ever since I found this rule, everyone in my group been trying to break it except for me and now it's being clamped on hard by the GM.

>>48011651
Its more than that though. What is the supernatural? In Pathfinder people can train really hard (which apparently means deal with philosophical problems and kill things) and become physically stronger than anything has any right to be. There is no real divide between supernatural and natural. Magic just means the laws of physics in this world don't work the same. Everyone, whether they are a Fighter or a Wizard is "magical" by merit of existing in a magical setting, the very concept of a soul (which they all have) is magical!

>>48011651
I do not mean doesn't have any Su abilities. I mean gets granted Su abilities by an outside force rather than getting them through self training. A supernal lord is who is granting him those abilities in this concept, not his own training/ability.

>>48011701
I wasn't planning to stop at fluff. Unlike a paladins code (which is a flat break or not break) these knights would have to manage the crowd reaction to their actions. So in true heroic style, they cant use their best moves at the start of a fight because they need to build up love from their "crowd" by engaging in honorabu combat, the more honorabu, desperate or heroic things get the more of their power they can use and the more they use those powers or do underhanded/pragmatic things the less they can use. Like a scale thats moving instead of a binary code.

>>48011714
>Ever since I found this rule, everyone in my group been trying to break it except for me and now it's being clamped on hard by the GM.
Of course it is. The game's about adventuring, primarily, so if the GM wants you to go on adventures in a traditional manner, he's going to squash ways to make free money that don't involve risk of death.

>>48011722
Exactly! At least, by our standards.

Supernatural, Mundane, and so forth are game terms and, within the bizarro physics of Pathfinder and its settings, have different meanings than what we think. It seems arbitrary to us because it IS arbitrary, and a GM has to either decide if he's going to mold the setting around the mechanics or change the mechanics to fit his fluff. I prefer the former; it's easier. Simply having a soul, to a Pathfinder peasant, isn't magic; everybody's got one, that's pretty normal. Big whoop. Using that soul to do things most others can't or won't learn how to do? Supernatural.

>>48011763
Oh, sure, but you could trade a Fighter's bonus feats for some of the things every Knight will need just to be a capable mounted combatant with PoW (Ride-By Attack that isn't RAW useless and works with Strikes, Martial Charge with mount's movement, etc) and ignore the supernal lord stuff entirely. That's part of why I specifically had the supernal things set at every other level.

>>48011768
Oh, so it's Performance Combat, but they can't see the crowd. Interesting.

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>>48009897
Such a lust for revenge!

Is there a Soul Eater (in the Book of Vile Darkness) equivalent in PF?
I just want to eat some souls

>>48011806
>Oh, sure, but you could trade a Fighter's bonus feats for some of the things every Knight will need just to be a capable mounted combatant with PoW (Ride-By Attack that isn't RAW useless and works with Strikes, Martial Charge with mount's movement, etc) and ignore the supernal lord stuff entirely. That's part of why I specifically had the supernal things set at every other level.
Honestly I haven't liked essentially any of the ideas you've thrown around. They don't fit my concept of a landed knight in much any way. Su abilities from a sponsor, if you're looking at Arthurian sort of knight legends don't function how you mention. Your design, as far as I can tell, is a complete mess of PoW, Su abilities, and some kind of enhanced leadership. It's a mess.

>>48004937
Well you want the best tool for the job, and what are adventurers if not a bunch of tools?

>>48011877
>Honestly I haven't liked essentially any of the ideas you've thrown around. They don't fit my concept of a landed knight in much any way. Su abilities from a sponsor, if you're looking at Arthurian sort of knight legends don't function how you mention. Your design, as far as I can tell, is a complete mess of PoW, Su abilities, and some kind of enhanced leadership. It's a mess.

I'm sorry I communicated my ideas poorly. I'll try harder when I actually write them down.

>>48011860
Yep.

It's called Soul Eater.

>>48007206
So what you're saying is that Golarion is a good setting in the same way that wheat is a good bread if you have been eating nothing but white bread for a decade? Get some fucking rye, Anon.

>>48008205
Shits his pants and has to leave.

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>>48011822
>>48010865

>>48010865
>>48012048
>>48007884
Did someone say awooo?
https://youtu.be/OxSJr2xErUE

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>>48011962
PUMPERNICKEL

Why do Gnomes get a bonus to Con?

>>48011962
>rye
>not homemade sourdough
>not pumpernickel

>>48008286
>BLACKED

>>48012229
Nobody can figure out what to do with gnomes. They're halflings, but dwarfier.

>>48012229

So they can last longer on and off the field to satisfy their insatiable lust for new experiences.

>>48011962
Golarion is a good setting in that amongst white breads, it is the best at being white bread, but also lets you dabble in the roles of other breads. Theres no point having a rye or pumpernickel bread without appropriate ingredients to go alongside them, pathfinder comes with a lot of ingredients but none of them are good for rye or pumpernickel.

BASICALLY ITS GOOD FOR FANTASY ADVENTURING

>>48012314

You could say they want some of that Underdark meat.

>>48012381
You're ignoring the part where Golarion is pretty much the worst pre-made setting there is.

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>>48012229
Stamina to fulfill their desire for new "experiences"

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>>48012404
>playing in pre-made settings

>>48012404
Compared to what? Forgotten Realms? Eberron? Oldhammer? Talislanta? Myfarogs setting? Mythological greece?

>>48012469

Forgotten Realms is awful, but most people grew up on that so nostalgia is on full-blast.

Eberron is a legitimately good setting that nails the themes they were going for while making a world that felt rich and plausible even though the gods might not even exist.

>>48011931
Sweet, thanks brah

>>48012522
Eberron was nice but i see no reason to compare it to Golarion. The only thing Eberron has i would consider better for fantasy adventuring is MUH PROPHECY because that made dragons very interesting. I suppose the races for players were kinda good too but the countries, organizations and figures weren't up to par for me.

Can I use a high level spell slot to prepare a lower level spell (without just using metamagic to increase its level, because I don't have those yet). Like, for example, could I use a 3rd level slot to prepare an additional 2nd level spell if I think that spell will be more useful today?

>>48012620
Yep.

>>48012620
No. Some abilities like split slot could be useful to you and i think some items let you do similar things.

>>48012229
They are an earthy folk with a connection to nature due to their fey ancestry. That means they're typically charged with vitality, or whatever.

That's always how I've justified it, anyway.

Got time for a couple rules question, /pfg/?

Last session we hit level 6 and I got some Rhino Hide armor, which "deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer."

What makes this complicated is that I'm a Druid (Saurian Shaman), so this level I get access to wildshape. If I'm understanding things correctly, if I turn into, say, an allosaurus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/allosaurus), then I get five attacks on a charge, thanks to pounce (Bite, 2 Claws, and 2 Rakes as indicated by the pounce rules).

First Question: If I'm charging, does the +2 on attack rolls from the charge apply to just the first of my natural attacks (say, the bite), or all of them?

Second Question: Does the 2d6 from the Rhino Hide apply only to the first attack, or to each natural attack made?

The only conclusive discussions I've found by googling all involve iterative attacks (from high BAB) with lances, which seem to be a fundamentally different thing than a pounce attack.

In the end, I'm going to be hashing it out with my GM anyway, but I wanted to ask around, first.

>>48012632
>>48012633
So... which is it?

>>48012229
They have powerful immune systems, have strong bones and their organs can maintain partial function even in the event of damage.

>>48012469
Are you saying you DON'T want to play a game set in mythological Greece?

>>48012662
"a spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell."

On the Magic page on the SRD, under Spell Slots, which is itself under Preparing Wizard Spells.

The answer is yes. Split Slot's advantage is that you get two slots for one.

>>48012719
Wanting to use Golarion more often than Greece does not mean never using Greece.
Though to be honest I'm not sure I'd play D&D/PF/Similar D20 games in Mythological Greece, I'd probably play hero or something instead.

>>48010438
You should probably change the primal fury guys to be more primal living people instead of at one with nature. Elemental flux should take up that slot.

Would discipline design have been better if characters were locked to maneuvers from one and ONLY one discipline? Like at level 1 a Warder gets to choose from Broken Blade, Golden Lion, Iron Tortoise, or Primal Fury, and then gets just maneuvers from that discipline as they level up. Would that have made for better design within each discipline since they could be built to synergize within themselves without worrying too much about accidental game breaking by combining boosts, stances, and strikes from multiple maneuvers?

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I need players for my on-line campaign this summer!
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/50095/nightmare-on-hook-street

Hey guys, does anyone have a game I could join? I'm desperate.

>>48012901
Yes.
DSP are faggots.

>>48012914
We started last friday. Sorry, bruh.

>>48012912
Holy fucking shit, yes please.

>>48012901
Thats like saying being locked to one school of magic would solve spellcasting.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean its the best solution.

>>48012901
It *could* have, or it more likely would have resulted in EVERYONE being from a specific 2 or 3 disciplines.

The internal balance of individual disciplines isn't perfect either.

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>>48012912
>>48012914
Well that's convenient isn't it?

>>48012912
>https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/50095/nightmare-on-hook-street
That's a really weird ban list. Can I ask why?

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>>48012912
Ca va, Gobusters?

>>48012901
I feel like the whole system would've been better served if there WASN'T arbitrary discipline divisions.

Just one big pool that anyone can pick anything from, so you don't need twenty different 1st level maneuvers of 'deal more damage' so that every damn discipline has them.

>>48012936
Seems to work for the Beguiler.

>>48012948
Because a Horror campaign sucks when you have abhumans able to see in the dark like dorfs.

>>48012983
No I mean the banned classes.

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107KB, 500x591px

>>48012912
>15 PB

>>48012995
The campaign is going to be urban centric and if there are archetypes which allow things like urban druids or barbarians I found those classes out of place for what I have in mind.

>>48013022
Wait, are you saying you find the archetypes out of place, or that the archetypes would let people take those classes?

Because there is both urban druids and urban barbarians.

>>48013022
But what about stuff like Magus or Warpriest? Seems odd banning warpriest and no other clergy based divine casters.

>>48013054
>>48013022
Because if you're going for gothic horror stuff like Summoners, Warpriests, and Gunslingers really fit the bill. Seems odd to me that those are banned. Witch as well for that matter.

>>48013051
I find the classes and iterations out of place.
>>48013054
Lets put this way, I can't see Father Merrin being a warpriest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSxuXQCEC7M

>>48013022
Oracle and Witch though? Those are two deeply urban horror themed classes.

>>48013097
What, even Urban Barbarian? How so?

>>48013097
>Lets put this way, I can't see Father Merrin being a warpriest.
But like, a warpriest and an inquisitor both fill the same niche, they can both be armored divine casters. Banning one and not the other is silly as the two can be made near identical.