Is anyone still playing the Dresden Files game or is it dead?

Looks really dead.

I liked the Dresden Files RPG. I think it died because it was tied to such a specific IP. And also because the FATE system isn't suited for being specific to an established universe, it's more oriented towards creating your own.

I don't believe there has been any other DF games, but I think World of Darkness and Unknown Armies kind of fill the modern magic on the streets genre. Plus their established settings seem far more varied and expansive than Harry Dresden's world.

>>47998112
>>47998039
Yeah, this is why I ran my game in gurps.
I couldn't fathom why the world specific ruleset was made; we had a resurrected centurion, black court diplomat/expat German, and a louisianna werepanther in one group. They kicked down doors, figured out the crime, and saved the girl... even when the girl was infected with mindflayer brainworms.

>>47997769

Setting RPGs in universes from other media (except maybe video games) is usually stupid and lazy in the first place, but Dresden Files was a particularly weird choice. There just isn't much "space" in the setting for people who aren't Harry Dresden to have magical adventures. If you make space it's no longer really Dresden Files and you might as well just play WoD, whose universe is actually designed for P&P.

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>>47998609
That's true, the world is all about Harry and he's the big wizard hero. The Gandalf problem and the same reason few people play in Middle Earth.

But the novels seem to be going strong.

So what's the best game/system to play Dresden Files as a sandbox, apart from the FATE game?

NWOD all mashed together? Unknown Armies?

Just Mage the Ascension (but all the baggage)?

The Strange?

Maybe God-help-me Shadowrun?

>>47998894
It's pulpy as fuck and easy to read.

Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean it's good.

>>47998967
Gurps; it does Modern X Magic X Superheroes super well

>>47998967
Nemesis
I don't know what I'm talking about.

>>47999001
I don't think that anon was even saying that. Just that if you leave him and all the other characters out there's no point in using the setting, while if you include them the PCs basically become side characters in their own story, like people are always complain about with Forgotten Realms

>>47999263
It's a narrow line to tow; the world is amazingly fleshed out. Unfortunately 99% of that hinges on the actions of a dozen godlike npcs. If you don't include those, you're either being disengenuous to the setting, or missing the point entirely.

>>47998967
>Other then Fate

Set the universe backwards in time and then play using Deadlands.

>>47998609
Why is it stupid and lazy to take from a book/tv series/movie/play but not-so for video games?

I'd rather play in Lankmar than Dragon Age.

>>47998967
Nobilis sounds strange, but it would actually work. You'd just lower the power level and then use the points for "Domain" to make an actual family home.

Don't have players pool all theirs together unless they happen to be playing siblings or something.

Unknown Armies and Illuminati would both be great.

The problem with NWOD and Mage is that they both assume humans are shit and useless, which is repeatedly shown not to be the case in the dresden files. Normal humans CAN kick ass.

Not familiar with strange, don't use shadowrun.

>>47999577
See, that's the reason I liked gurps; everyone had the same amount of points to spend on things, regardless of origin. And nobody bought anything weird enough to buy a weird background, so the humans vampires and panther man were all on the same level, as the setting required.

Our group does, but it indeed takes place in a universe where Harry Dresden himself doesn't exist and guys like the Winter and Summer Knights and the Knights of the Cross are all vacant positions if my players can fill them easily.

We have one KotC in our group actually, a really nifty Sikh hero.

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>>47999365
>99% of that hinges on the actions of a dozen godlike npcs. If you don't include those, you're either being disengenuous to the setting, or missing the point entirely.

I don't necessarily agree with that. The trouble is that, up until about Dead Beat/Proven Guilty, the books tried to be a 'Chicago detective' story, but with big names moving around whose power expanded as the series progressed. In the early books, there's no fundamental difference between Lea and Mab in terms of power level, and Marcone is just as deadly in a practical sense -Harry is in just as much danger from a random group of lycanthropes as he is during some great cosmic faerie war. For a PnP, you just have to curtail that bloat, so that the focus stays on the small scale and the party doesn't go from 'fighting pornomancers' to destroying the Red Court that quickly.

It's both helpful and a hindrance that Dresden is explicitly a pretty damn strong wizard, one of the top 50 at least. It means that you can scale the power level back down to make mortals more than side characters, but it also means that if anyone wants to actually play a wizard they need to accept that they're not going to be anything like Harry.

>>48001423
>so the humans vampires and panther man were all on the same level, as the setting require
The thing with that is that they aren't on the same level. Black Court vampires are fucking terrifying, they are the strongest of the vampires and they could tear through an army of mortals. Assuming the werepanther is like Borden and his gang, the BCV could shred him too, not to mention the centurion (assuming he got raised vanilla). There's a nice short story about some V:tM skank who got turned into a BC vamp and tried to get revenge on her LARP group- even as a very new vampire, she would have killed Dresden and everyone else there if Thomas and Molly didn't help.

>>48006443
>they need to accept that they're not going to be anything like Harry.

That's basically the only reason to play in that setting though. It's poorly-constructed and cliche as far as modern fantasy settings go, and if you can't even act out the self-insert-style power fantasies that define and embody the series, you're left with a game that no one wants.

It's like offering kids a bag of candy, and then letting them find out that the only thing left in it are circus peanuts and black licorice.

>>48006443
Harry isn't that strong a Wizard. He's only 40-something and hasn't come into his power yet. You can easily make Harry at the beginning of the series with 12 Refresh.

>>48006482
>poorly-constructed and cliche as far as modern fantasy settings go

Please elaborate.

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>>48006482
Cliche, definitely, but I wouldn't say poorly constructed. The rules for how magic works are pretty well laid out, easy to understand the basics, and for an RPG they're broad enough to be workable (anyone can make a circle, or with the correct reading call up a spirit, and there's a variety of powers and potency below White Council).

If I was going to run a DF game, I'd make it a Paranet game- all the players are in some city, monsters are creeping around and advancing during the chaos of the war, and the only contact with the White Council is when a faceless Warden shows up in a grey cloak and starts cutting off heads.

>>48006559
At the very beginning of the series, maybe. 4 books in and he's killing Faerie Queens and being offered the Mantle of Winter Knight, 5 books in and he's facing off against multiple Denarians and surviving, and 7 books in he's going toe-to-toe with centuries-old necromancers and winning. Sure, there's trickery and help along the way, but Harry is objectively one of the most ass-kicking wizards on the White Council, confirmed multiple times, with specializations in thaumaturgy and burning down buildings. His raw magical power shoots through the roof.

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Are there any similar games that let players play a mix of wizards & monsters in an urban fantasy setting?

With a good setting?

>>48006608
And it's been shown that other Wizards are far more powerful. In a straight up fight, Morgan would have kicked Harry's ass.

Wizards in general are scary strong. Harry has said Multiple times that he's not a particularly strong Wizard and is the magical equivalent of a Thug.

>>48006774
World of Darkness?
Monster Hearts?

Neither is as Urban Fantasy as DF, but there aren't that many dedicated urban fantasy games out there, now that I think of it.

>>48006782
Then how come it's always up to him to save the world while those really powerful wizards are sitting on their asses?

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>>48006782
>Harry has said Multiple times that he's not a particularly strong Wizard and is the magical equivalent of a Thug

No to the former, yes to the latter. "Hell, on a good day I'd go along with someone who said that I was one of the top twenty or thirty wizards on the planet, in terms of sheer magical muscle. And my finesse and skill continued to improve. Give me a couple of hundred years and I might be one of the top two or three wizards on the planet."

Harry has a lot of goonstrength, which is one of the most important measurements for an RPG. Also importantly, he stresses that he is skilled in thaumaturgy, particularly finding things. He's also got a hell of a lot of experience with stuff like making magic foci (staff and blasting rod get replaced regularly, his rings, shield bracelets, that bear belt, the anti-ghost bracelet, etc). Sure, in a fight his tactics are usually "Put up a hugely strong wall, through around fire or wind or pure force in great blasts" instead of something more subtle, and he's pants when it comes to things like healing magic and veils, but Harry is in the top tier of the White Council, which is the top tier of the magic human spectrum.

Could Morgan beat him in a fight? Yeah, probably, though when they do fight in earnest in Dead Beat Harry thinks he might be able to take Morgan down with him. Morgan is also the Council's top soldier, the right hand when it comes to fighting warlocks and other threats, and he's got a couple centuries of experience on Dresden. You would expect him to be better. Doesn't mean that Harry is weak when compared to the 99.9%.

>>48006815
Because shit has a tendency to happen while he's around. Note that he barely survives most of his adventures. Not really the mark of a truly powerful Wizard.

>>48006782
Its very well established that he is in fact in raw power very strong. He lacks finesse. He is just the equivalent of being 14 years old. Not quite used to his body just yet. He's also a known cheater and gains a lot from having Bob and having a knack for getting allies that can buy him time.

Fuck, going up against the denarians without michael and that divine protection that comes with being a knight of the cross has saved him mutliple times. But mostly Harry wins by having a pain tolerance that's stretching my suspension of belief.

>>48006901
Wizard's Constitution is a hell if an ability.

>>48006900
>Note that he barely survives most of his adventures. Not really the mark of a truly powerful Wizard.

When the results are 'murdering faerie queens, destroying dozens of vampires, repeatedly fighting literal fallen angels, beating a loup-garou twice (binding it once, killing it the second time), and all the other things he's done' and his payment is 'some time off-camera in the hospital', that's a fucking victory.

Luccio and everyone else with an ounce of experience points out that he has fought and beaten more monsters than wizards a century his senior. It's retarded to argue that he's not powerful just because he doesn't stroll through every book like a 3.P wizard.

>>47997769

I haven't played it recently now, but that's more for a lack of a group than any other real issue. You do have to get people all on the same page for power levels of characters and threats though. I had one online game where the DM was used to playing with a ton of wizards and munchkins, and the first monster basically hammered our entire party into the ground with severe consequences everywhere, and it fell apart quickly from there when nobody had amazing wizard healing powers.

>Dresden isn't a major player
>literally on a first name basis with motherfucking Gabriel

No, Dresden is very, very important and powerful. The reason everyone tries to kill him so often is they're trying to cut him down before he becomes immune to their efforts.

>>48007687
Forget Gabriel and the soulfire, he's the best friend the Archive has, and she outmagicked a half-dozen Denarians without breaking a sweat. He made himself an army of faeries (little ones, but enough to kill the Summer Lady) and he's got pull with the White Court. Dresden has more powerful friends than the president.

I just wish there was a non-FATE system for DF. Maybe something with a spellpoint system, to keep the flexibility of the magic while also allowing people to build a stable version of one specific power?

PEACE TALKS WHEN BUTCHER?

>>48008375
As of June, still in the writing phase, so it's at least a year out. He's got too many other series going to keep Dresden Files coming regularly.

>>48008398
While the aeronaughts windlass was a great book, i too long for more dresden.

>>48006559
>>48006443
Harry mentions that he'd probably sit in the top fifty, maybe even top twenty in terms of raw power on his best day.

What he lacks is control. He mentions this in the same sentence as seeing somebody shoot a pencil-thin beam of fire and use it like a laser against a bunch of zombies, as I recall. He's got no chance of doing that, all he can do is flashy shit.

It helps further that wizards tend to be pretty damn strong, but they also usually need a lot of prep to pull off big moves. And Harry's usually a mass of bruises and broken bones by the end of a book too.

He's Winter Knight now, but even that's still not as much a power boost if one of the Queens doesn't amp him at the time, it just turns off his natural human body restrictions to act like he's hopped up on adrenaline all the time.

>>48007687
Uriel, not Gabriel. Gabriel's the one who rode Murphy into the Red Court in Changes. Still, Uriel's not really the sort of guy who'll actually help him because of the whole free will thing. If he breaks the rules, he Falls.

>>48007687

>Dresden isn't a major player

Well, Butcher himself stated that Dresden may never be a player in the war against the Outsiders, and that is supposed to be the biggest game to play in DF World.

Let's keep the discussion about the actual game, and not steering into /lit/.

>>48008454
AW had its problems, especially in how Aurora is just a less interesting version of the People's Republic of Haven from Honor Harrington. I'll probably give the sequel a read, but my hopes aren't high

>>47998039
there hasn't been another book in a while, but there probably won't be, and there isn't much reason to be.
Other than errata and updates to the rules.

A big part of the game is about building up your local setting as a group, the big setting is in the novels, and most of the major characters and npcs are in the published books.
It's a two book game.

>>47998609
>There just isn't much "space" in the setting for people who aren't Harry Dresden to have magical adventures.
there isn't much space at the top, but there is plenty of space below that.

Playing submerged tier does feel crowded, the books make it clear there are tones of smaller scale trouble going on over the place throughout the series.

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There are, what, 16 DF novels out now?

What's the best one?

Did you guys ever read The War For The Oaks?

>>48009535
take your inquiry to /lit/.

>>48008941
Really? Isn't Harry one of the "Chosen Ones" Starborn who can do ANYTHING to Outsiders?

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Dresden's just a simpler, Americanized ripoff of Constantine anyway.

>>48010391
Urban fantasy is an entire genre. Constantine was a big part of spawning that genre, but that is not the same thing as being ripoffs.

I adore Fate and love the DFRPG, even though I tried the books and really didn't enjoy them (got through the first four I think). One day I'll find a group to play with. One day...

>>48010732
>four
I'm gonna guess three.
I say this because 1 is bad, two is also pretty bad, three it turns the corner but hasn't built up steam yet, and 4 on is the good stuff.

>>48008941
Sure. That's likely to happen. It's not like it's been heavily foreshadowed that he's going to be a major player in this due to the circumstances of his birth, his role as Warden of Demonreach, and being the Winter Knight. It's definitely not like the last books (which Butcher already has planned and named) are going to bring him full circle, back into conflict with He-Who-Walks-Behind and his brothers in a dramatic battle for reality itself. Jim Butcher is definitely the kind of author not to capitalize on that opportunity.

>>48009554
>>48008965
Thanks board police.

But fine- Did the Outsiders ever get statted up anywhere? They don't follow the normal rules of the supernatural, but given how loose Fate is that shouldn't be a huge issue.

>>48010775
That's a lot of bad reading before the payoff. No wonder people don't recommend this series.

>>47997769
>I still have the pdf saved then my phone and I re-read it regularly. Seriously doubt I'll ever find enough people to play with, though.

>>48008816
>What he lacks is control. He mentions this in the same sentence as seeing somebody shoot a pencil-thin beam of fire and use it like a laser against a bunch of zombies, as I recall. He's got no chance of doing that, all he can do is flashy shit.

He isn't even the best at that.
In Skin Game he met a chick who was so good with fire magic that she basically makes brief flashes of explosive power and instantly reduces her opponents to ashes, like shooting them with a disintegration ray.

Harry totally lacks fine control.
His starting build in the RPG gives him +5 Convinction (enough power that he can throw around as powerful spells as you can get for a beginning 10 Refresh hero), but only +3 Discipline, meaning without his focus items when tossing full-strength magic he's mechanically more likely to fail then not.

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>>48010914
People do recommend it. They just generally recommend you skip the first book, because like a lot of first books it's kinda terrible -not bad if you like the setting already, but not the best impression to start with an author. The second one is fine (though without reading the first book you might have trouble understanding immediately) but Grave Peril (#3) is both good and essentially a soft reboot - you get immediately introduced to the characters (including the Carpenters, who aren't in the first couple) and how everything works, and it really starts the plot that carries through the series.

>>47999001
>Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean it's good.
No, it's good BECAUSE you enjoy it.
It's meant to be enjoyed.

It's not literature, it's a fun way to pass time.

>>48010914
books one and two are completely skipable. The few plot relevant bits are brought up as background info in the next books intros.

While having two bad books is not a good sign, they were his first two novels. Most authors need a couple of books to hit their stride.

>>48010899
>But fine- Did the Outsiders ever get statted up anywhere? They don't follow the normal rules of the supernatural, but given how loose Fate is that shouldn't be a huge issue.

The weaker ones, the guys that Michael and the Knights fought off-screen to save the Senior Council members.
They were VERY tough and basically immune to anything that wasn't a Sword of the Cross-type thing.
Outsiders seem to basically shrug off physical harm because most of the physical laws of reality don't apply to them because they are "outside" of it, but power coming from Capital G God can hurt them because he operates on that level too.

>>48010775
Let's be fair, here, 1-3 are decent books in their own right as far as standard paperback fantasy fare goes. From 4 or so onwards (Dead Beat, I think? The one that started the war) is just the point where it really started to stand out.

>>48011031
The third book is ridiculously important to the overall plot since basically every major character of import and the entire storyline sixteen books in was foreshadowed in precisely ONE scene.
Shit, one character three books later even tells him outright that as important as that goddamn night at Bianca's party WAS to Harry's life he's still not aware of the full consequences of everything that happened.

>>48010934
Post in Game Finder. I'm rabid for a game.

>>48009493
>there hasn't been another book in a while
Paranet Papers just came out earlier this year, didn't it?

>>48009535
>What's the best one?
Turn Coat is definitely up there. Loved the chance to get to know Morgan.

>>48011139
Dead Beat is book 3.
Summer Knight is book 4.

>>48011139
>>48011167
No.

Grave Peril (Bianca's party) is #3

Summer Knight is #4

Dead Beat (with the Necromancers) is #7

>>48011161
>Turn Coat is definitely up there. Loved the chance to get to know Morgan

Shagnasty is a fantastic villain too, tied up there with Nicodemus.
He's one of precisely two that literally refused to fuck around and play games and spends the entire book more or less effortlessly demolishing anyone who fights him until one of the most powerful wizards on earth manages to break even and causes him to run.
Said wizard then outright says that the fight could've gone either way if they kept going and there wasn't enough of a difference in power for either of them to have a clear advantage in the fight.

>>48011161
>Paranet Papers just came out earlier this year, didn't it?

Last June. I don't think they plan to put out any more books, unless they get permission to do some setting splats, which is unlikely (most everything was covered under 'Our World' and authors generally don't like to establish things outside of the actual books, because they might change their mind about details when they become relevant for the story).

>>48011154
>Gamefinder
elaborate

>>48011220
Shagnasty's from Skin Game, though.
Personally, I'll go with either Changes or Ghost Story as my favorite. Shit hit the fan constantly.

>>48011281
He already did that a bit with goblins and what they were like in the series.
But actually Butcher has (much to my surprise) done quite a bit of foreshadowing of stuff that hadn't happened yet in books when the RPG books came out, mostly in the margins notes sent by other characters.

Some stuff that they talk about (such as Kincaid's history with the Denarians that Nicodemus alluded to) hasn't even been addressed yet in the books.

>>48011330
No, that's Goodman Grey.
Shagnasty is the Naaglooshi Harry basically spent the entire book getting his ass kicked by.

>>48011330
>Shagnasty's from Skin Game, though.

No he's not. Shagnasty is the name of the naagloshi is Turn Coat, the Genoskwa is the not-Bigfoot in Skin Game, and Goodman Grey is the half-naagloshi.

>>48011347
Fair point. The margin notes did some revealing, but I don't think that's the same as putting out a full setting book about something like Asia and laying out everything about the Jade Court. To be actually useful as a game aid and not just tease book readers, it needs to show a lot more.

>>48011139
To be really fair, the entire series is terrible, but the genre is suffering such a drought that people will read anything without spelling mistakes.

>>48011302
The gamefinder threads that occur regularly here on /tg/ for people like you to recruit players and/or find a game.

>>48011220
Shit I almost forgot Shagnasty. It was nice to have a villain that finally hammered home that whole "using the Sight is dangerous" thing.

>Fair point. The margin notes did some revealing, but I don't think that's the same as putting out a full setting book about something like Asia and laying out everything about the Jade Court. To be actually useful as a game aid and not just tease book readers, it needs to show a lot more.

Yeah, I agree.
In our semi-recurring home game we both ignored the canon book characters and used just the setting and stuff like the Jade Court is actually fairly important to the game.

>>48011639
>Shit I almost forgot Shagnasty. It was nice to have a villain that finally hammered home that whole "using the Sight is dangerous" thing.

I noticed after Proven Guilty he uses it a LOT less, and in White Knight he even says up-front that he's sick of relying on it because all he ever looks at is horrible shit that he remembers forever so he comes up with alternative investigative methods.
In other news it took me WAY too long to figure out what the hell the Red Court vampires were a cultural reference too and thought for a really long time that a Butcher completely made them up.

>>47997769
My home group still plays semi-regularly and goes back to the same group of characters in the same city each time.
I can go into details I guess?

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>>48011791
Go for it.

>>48010391
Not really. Dresden is, at the very least, a decent guy. Constantine is an unapologetic asshole.

>>48011031
Fool Moon is worse than Storm Front though.

>>48011639
Well, I can't GM/haven't GM'd anything in my life, so I don't think I could manage that, but I guess it doesn't hurt for people to know players exist.

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>>48011871
>Fool Moon is worse than Storm Front though.

>>48011871
Does it really matter which turd smells worse?

>>48011951
>>48011871
I actually agree.

>>47997769
>>47997769
As all meme games that were popular for a while because they ran on FATE, it's not dead: it was never alive to begin with.

>>48011765
>what the hell the Red Court vampires were a cultural reference to
Well, what is it?

>>48011031
People recommend it once they're too deep into the sunk-cost fallacy. It's not that the first few books are skippable, it's that the entire series is skippable.

>>47998967
Urban Shadows?

>>48012116
>Unironically calling something a meme game

>>48011951
I do too actually.

Storm Front had a pretty good chain of clues and the final confrontation was baller as hell and the villain had a cool gimmick.

Fool Moon was mostly Dresden being a mopey fuck. ANd him and the detective chick refusing to listen to each other or communicate well. And the "Future confident Dresden" thing talking to himself was clumsy and dumb.

I'm about halfway through the 3rd one now and shit is crazy.

>>48012192
>was clumsy and dumb.

Get ready for a lot of that.

>>47998967
Savage Worlds? D6 System/MiniSix?

>>48012192
>And the "Future confident Dresden" thing talking to himself was clumsy and dumb

It wasn't his future self, it was his subconscious. Probably says something when your subconscious goes around looking like you look when you're getting ready for a fight.

>>48011827
M'kay.
The entire game took place in Seattle, which we focused on making an East-West cultural crossroads as well as having a sense of "modern" mortal power slowly but subtly eroding established older powers while ignoring lots of canon NPC's.

>Aakar Singh, Knight of the Cross, Wielder of Esperacchius
A professor at the University of Washington, a Sikh, and holy knight on the side. Definitely the nicest guy in the party and the most altruistic as you might expect, but kind of has a tendency to jump the gun when it came to fighting evil stuff; he was rad at history and politics and real-life religious stuff but mostly stayed out of the supernatural junk except to slay it when it preyed on the innocent.

>Tom "True Thomas" Rymer, Changeling and Wyldfae Protector
A successful artist in Seattle, probably the best-off character financially. He was the son of some unknown Wyldfae and basically made it his personal job to protect ALL the Changelings in Seattle from the manipulation and predations of their parents and also protected wyldfae who didn't want to take sides in the Winter-Summer conflict. A social character who was an awesome swordsman and could do glamours. Interestingly, his art was in scrap metal sculptures that he made himself so he basically worked in the thing that fae were afraid of, name steel and iron. He was basically the group's Thomas Raith but without the angst.

>Siobhan Caomhánach, Nascent Banshee
Lounge singer and weird kind of changeling; her entire family STARTS as being human, but every generation a woman expresses the traits of a Baensidhe who predicts death omens for the family and then must eventually choose to be a human or be that generations Baensidhe. A LOT more powerful then Tom Rymer is, with things like increased strength and healing and speed and a hypersonic scream attack that she called "doing her Black Canary thing".
The player herself actually is into h Gaelic myth stuff and ROCKS the Irish accent.

>>47998609
I don't understand this argument. The RPG is actually pretty well done, and takes an interesting stance, encouraging players to use the books as inspiration, not canon.

In some ways it reminds me of Hunter: The Vigil. Your game, your rules.

I also agree with the other anon that it really is just a two book game. It doesn't need more books at all.

>>48012325
There a Third book, you know.

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>>48006482
It might be the only appeal to you, but not to everyone.

>>48008816
To be fair, Dresden has once unleashed and defeated a giant brain warping unstoppable cosmic horror. But also to be fair, War Cry gets kind of dumb and probably isn't canon. Even if it does have Nebezial as artist

>>48011020
>In Skin Game he met a chick who was so good with fire magic that she basically makes brief flashes of explosive power and instantly reduces her opponents to ashes, like shooting them with a disintegration ray.
To be fair, Ascher was also Lasciel's host

>>48011281
>>48011161
>Paranet Papers
I've never heard of this. I'm going to have to look it up. A restructuring of the plot to White Night (serial killer hunting people with minor talents, "suffer not the witch to live") is something I keep wanting to do in a WoD game (or ripping it off for my own urbfan writing).

Or, wait, do you mean an RPG book, not a real novel. GOT ME EXCITED FOR A SECOND.

>because they might change their mind about details when they become relevant for the story
To be fair, a lot of the stuff in DFRPG is generic and amounts to Bob and Harry and Billy going "sure, it could happen", like the suggested character of being the lost Autumn Knight.

>>48012192
>>48012268
Dresden talks to his subconscious a lot. Come to think of it, I made a Mage (the Awakening) character based off of Dresden from when I'd only read White Night and that guy ended up with a similar thing, though in my case the inner monologue with useful hints that he asked to take the form of his dead girlfriend was actually her soul growing in his head. Ironic because the ST didn't read Dresden Files. I guess I never noticed that similarity because Head Harry isn't something I remember often, and because mine was a man in a white suit and later a teenage girl.

I wonder if Dresden's head self is going to end up being something similar. I forget if Lash ever acknowledged his talkative subconscience's presence. I know Molly has.

>>48012572
>I wonder if Dresden's head self is going to end up being something similar.

Somebody didn't read Skin Game
Lash left a mind-baby in him, which was being protected and nurtured by his subconscious, and he gave birth to at the end of that book. It's a spirit like Bob

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>stuck with smug Maeve forever instead of Aurora

I cannot fathom why when he was writing summer knight that he decided to go with Aurora being the rouge instead of Maeve. Would it have been on the head to have here the villain? Yes, but Aurora was so much more interesting in those few scenes in the book compared to all of Maeve that we have saw. Summer court intrigue would have been better than winter, and I think that it would have made the series as a whole better with Aurora interacting with Harry over Maeve and Mab, but Mab is better than Maeve, if only marginally.

>>48012279
Last One
>Ian Nottingham, Venatori Monster Hunter
He's a pure mortal with the Venatori Umbrorum as well as the Venatori proper and the player created him as an exploration of the concept of a mortal that was still almost "not human" thanks to spending so much refresh on stunts without actually taking any real powers.
His whole family is a part of the Venatori and both he and his dad were one of the few "Hunters" who went out and actually killer the supernatural actively. He was kind of the group's Kincaid (though I suspect he was a bit based on Kiritsugu Emiya) because he was a fucking murdermachine in combat and though many monsters out-classes him in power he relied on mortal firepower, treachery, and booby traps to even the odds. Definitely not a nice person though, and was very nearly a vigilante when it came to killing monsters and barely gave a fuck about the Accords. Saw the White Council as basically completely useless.

>Subaru Sumeragi, Warden of the White Council
I'd HATE this character of the player wasn't so good at playing her; the character is basically a whole reference to several anime and manga she enjoys and since said player actually IS Japanese I'm tempted to say she's a self-insert as well, but she never stole the limelight and always roleplayed her very well and consciousnesly made sure that she never made other characters useless with her magic.
She had a katana as her Warden sword (of course) and came from a very wealthy traditional Japanese family of Wizards and was REALLY old-fashioned and kind of a rules lawyer when it came to the Accords. She focused on Spirit Magic and swordsmanship lot and her spells were shit like "Reigan" and "Shottogan".
Her in-character personality reminds me of a couple of characters, but thankfully she's a perfect anime cutout heroine and actually has some weird quirks to her, such as her abiding love of disgustingly cheery J-pop music
Keep waiting for her to get annoying, but it never happens so far,

>>48012279
Continued.

>Glenn Fairall, PI and Minor Talent
He's kind of the group's version of Murphy but way less focused on combat. He's also got one actual superpower unlikely Murphy does; he's a psychometric and can get "impressions" off of objects and uses them to be an astonishingly successful PI since he doesn't need to register chains of evidence or prove anything in court. Formerly with the SPD, but while his case closure rate was amazing due to his powers he could never openly explain HOW he got tip-offs and instead created imaginary CI's and pretended that he had lots of lucky hunches that paid off. Eventually the department started to question his "good fortune" and he quit rather then deal with that shit. Despite being a minor talent he's not all that into the supernatural world stuff and spends a lot of time dealing with mundane cases.

>Kento Rockwell, Martial Artist and Earth Channeler
A ridiculously experienced martial artist who taught self-defense classes and was an instructor at a real-life Seattle Shorin-ryu dojo and a decently successful MMA fighter. Though his martial arts skills were all natural, he was an instinctive user of Earth magic that looked to the untrained observer like he had superhuman strength and uncannily precise dodging skills (his Earth magic was the conceptual-level shit mentioned in Paranet Papers). Spent a lot of time protecting the minor talents around town. A pretty nice guy for all that he could disassemble a man with his bare hands and could cast spells that let him knock down brick walls and dodge bullets.
Props if you get the name reference.

>>48012372
many of us are just discovering that.
The first two came out at the same time, and covered most of the things, and it really didn't seem like another was coming.

And now it seems like that's again true. WTF is the new book even covering?

>>48012890
>WTF is the new book even covering?
Paranet Papers? It's already out.
It covers the events of Turn Coat and more of the short stories, but also has TONS of new setting info; the Neverglades (an area near the actual Fountain of Youth), Las Vegas (a wretched hive of scum and villain), Los Tierras Rojas (the Red Lands, the areas that the Red Court controlled that have fallen into near civil war after the were destroyed), and even a historical setting, the Russian Revolution that's basically a long example of why it's a REALLY bad idea for the White Council to fuck with mortal politics.

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>>48012801

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>>48012817
>though I suspect he was a bit based on Kiritsugu Emiya

Did he ever blow up a building?

>>48012955
I new it was out, though looking back my tense choice was somewhat unclear.
Anyways, setting book. Cool I guess. Though one of my favorite parts of the game was actually building the local setting. We only got one play session in, but just the developing character and locations part was real fun.

>>48012956
Shit

>>47998967

GURPS, using Ritual Path Magic and perhaps some elements from Cabal or Monster Hunters.

RPM was basically intended to work for Dresden Files style magic, and it fits is very well.

Cabal is a modern secret magic setting book, and while it doesn't really fit with much of the Dresden lore, it's got more detail useful for an actual game.

Monster Hunters is high-power, intended for things like Buffy (but somewhat beefier monsters), XCOM, Predator, etc etc.

>>48012817
Suspect? Suspect, nothing. You got an original donut steal OC right there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sumeragi

>>48013031
That was part of the fun of our group as well.
One of the important parts of our Occult Seattle was it's Eastern District and how the Jade Court had a presence there, as well as a Nevernever faction (Freeholding group) called the Yokai all strongly inspired by Japanese monster mythology who were sort of alternatively harmful or friendly.

Their leader was the mythological Nurihariyon, who was this Eldest Gruff-tier spellcaster who was probably the most powerful NPC we had in the setting.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurarihyon

>>48013085
Yeah, I got the name reference right away actually. And her main offense spells are from Yu Yu Hakusho.
Like I said, I was REALLY close to disliking her character, but she actually RPed get really well and did a lot to help me flesh out the Japanese mythology monsters and never tried to steal the limelight or to derail the game.

She's a first-time RPer too so I kept waiting for her to make those mistakes, but she never did and was generally very willing to learn and be helpful.
Thank god for that I guess.

>>48013163
She actually did an okay job of in-universe explaining the name and tying it into her personality; Subaru is like "Casey" or "Alex" and is a fairly gender-neutral name (her overbearing father wanted a son REALLY badly), and "Sumeragi" is this ridiculously old-fashioned name that has connotions of familial connections to the Emperors of Japan, thus indicating the "old money" wealth and sort of old-fashioned ness the White Council seems to have.
She actually RPed the character as something like...I dunno, a really old-fashioned Sailor Mars I guess.
To the player's credit she devoured the game books from front to back to learn the system and actually started reading through the novel series to help her think up characters better and flesh out her personality in ways that fit the setting.

One of the funny recurring jokes that was an Aspect is though she doesn't blow up technology as badly as Harry does (her fine control is greater) she kind of has no idea how most modern technology works and is kind of lost when it comes to that sort of thing due to her insanely old-fashioned upbringing.

She comes off like she was born in the early 1970's of rural Japan.

>>48013011
Yeah, but on accident.

>>48012192
I only remember two things from Fool Moon:

1. Murphy being insufferable

2. Harry going all Dragonball Z on a super werewolf.

>>48013290
Huh. One of the benefits of being Japanese is that it's pretty hard to come across as a weaboo, I suppose.
Good for you and her both, anon.

>>48012879
>Kento
>Rockwell
>Earth magic
>Martial Arts

Ronin Warriors?
http://youtu.be/NiRiv41H1LA

>>48013448
I liked the way Harry got kicked around by a bunch of supernatural groups. Borden's kids, the Streetwolves, lot of moving pieces he didn't appreciate until they were tying him to a chair.

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>>47997769
>there won't be a new book anytime within the forseeable future

>>48013497
but that happens basically every book.
The RPG sidebar even comments on it.

>>48012801
The answers you seek are in Cold Days.

>>48013525
And Fool Moon established that trend.

It got a lot less interesting when the books became less Gumshoe and more Exalted. Skin Game was good, but mostly because I love heists.

>>48013450
Her descriptions for Spirit magic were really fun when she used it (she focused equally as much on her swordplay as her magic, which she frequently focused on using it defensively).
She worked the fluff as it it as kind of being the opposite of Harry's "Forzare" spell; instead she fires these tightly compressed little bolts of force from her finger (which she actually aimed like a gun, with her middle and pointer finger being the "barrel") instead of Harry's huge battering rams of energy.
There was actually a little blue "muzzle flare" from her finger when she "shot" the spell and then bad guys would suddenly get messy holes blown in them rather then slammed around the room.
She also could do Air and Water magic, but she definitely specialized in the Spirit stuff both offensively and defensively because she wanted to avoid the "Wizard throws fire everywhere" thing.

>>48013537
>cold days

Would still prefer Aurora over Molly, but the other girl was okay.

>>48008816
>it just turns off his natural human body restrictions to act like he's hopped up on adrenaline all the time.
y'know, I'm still not sure that's accurate, or if it was a soft retcon. While it's certainly a part of the mantle, It sounded more like Butters letting his paranoia run off with him.

IIRC, Fix jumped fifty feet from a standing position.

I don't care how well you work out, that shit is NOT possible natty, especially from someone explicitly stated to be small and wiry.

>>48013497
>>48013563
I'd argue he got beat on and fucked up more in Fool Moon then almost any other.

In fae terms it's like an entire season of him failing Investigate checks, failing spell checks, loosing and taking Concessions in combat, getting shitty rolls, etc.

>>48013663
That was the Summer Knight. I'm pretty sure the whole "deadens to pain" thing is pure Winter, since we've seen Mab do similar things (Skin Game, for example).
Harry DOES get a magical boost of some kind from it, since he can use ice magic he couldn't before, but pure physical boosting might be the domain of Life/Summer.
Or it might have been Butter's paranoia. We should find out soon enough.

>>48013663
The Knights are also inhumanly strong and fast. It's sort of a retcon, but it's also maybe just that Butters is limited by thinking that things have to be 'human', and that there's also the possibility that the human body (while being augmented to superhuman levels) is still taking a beating.

>>48013563
there is still a mystery to be solved in every book. But the way it worked changes with Changes.

In all the others, there is a case that Harry needs to solve. Sometimes there is a thing that needs to be done, but it always involves a question that needs to be answered. He gets hired on cases

Then Changes happened, and we start getting new spins on this.
Ghost Story The mystery is about Harry, how did he die. There is other action happening, and problems to be solved, the the core driving factor is finding out his own death .
Then Cold Days in many ways a return to form, as he gets the band back together and needs to figure out whose going to destroy the Island. But the twist is, that's not the case, the case is Kill Meave, which actually spoils what you think the mystery is. The question is, Why did Mab give Harry the case

Then in Skin Game you get the biggest turn around, there is a hidden story going on the whole time, and there is 'parlor room' recap and reveal. the twist is, Harry's in on it. He's the one who was keeping the secret the whole time .

The series is still riffing on the mystery story structure.

>>48013663
I think Butters is partially right but also not 100% on point; even if you removed those limitations on muscles it wouldn't make you quite as exponentially stronger as Harry has gotten and Harry actually seems to be healing faster from his injuries (not that it helps because he keeps getting MORE injured) without needing professional medical help anymore.
Butters also has a tendency to try and explain shit with science when sometimes the explanation actually is "it's magic".

>>48013728
The title of Skin Game actually is a huge hint the the twist of the plot.
A Skin Game is a kind of complex con job where you join someone else running ANOTHER con job and then screw him over with an inside man you placed in the con ahead of time.
It's also a reference to Grey being a Skinwalker, so it's a double meaning. Butcher is pretty good at the naming thing usually, but Skin Game was one of his best for it's double meaning shit.

>>48013663
I think it might be one of those classic cases of "You get super strength, but not super bones to survive the force of the punch" and "You get super speed but not super muscle tissue that survives the speed of your feet"

He gets a power boost, but to cover up the strain on his body the mantle just numbs the pain.

>>48013728
It was nice to see Harry finally getting his shit together in Skin Game.
It was pretty satisfying in many ways, really

>Nicodemus not Jobbing to Murphy
>Michael going all out for once
>Harry showing the difference between a wizard and a powerful one trick pony in a fight
>Harry taking on two denarians and winning by brains
>Jim Butcher subtly taking the piss out of fanfic writers

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>>48013820
>>Jim Butcher subtly taking the piss out of fanfic writers

When was that?

Also, no book is complete without Molly.

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>>48013820
>>Jim Butcher subtly taking the piss out of fanfic writers
Hah, like what?

>>48013820
It's also basically the ONLY time where Nick and the Nickelheads suffer a flat loss that is a genuinely setback, whereas in the other two showings they get away without any real consequences except a minor plot that ultimately they didn't care much about failing.
I liked the reveal on how Nicodemus powers work, it explains a LOT about how he can stay so goddamn on top of shit as a villain.

>>48009535
White Knight is one of my favorites. Always amusing seeing Ramirez or Lara.

And no.

>>47998967
Paranoia.

>>48013804
The only title where there isn't a least a little of that is Changes.
Which doesn't follow any of the rules.

Which is kinda clever in its own way. You read that title, and if you've been reading the series till now you go "This isn't right". You're off balance before you read the first page, which proceeds to knock you to the floor.

Also, if you like audiobooks, Changes has likely the best reading of any of them. The climax, fuck.

>>48013842
Did you get that thing at the end with Michael basically giving Harry the "OK" to screw his daughter and Harry not realizing it at all?

>>48013842
>>48013854
Hannah Ascher was an absolutely brilliant Mary Sue deconstruction.
On paper, she's an absolutely terrible character, but he turned it around magnificently.

>Super skilled at fire magic, even better than Harry!
>So beautiful it's a curse!
>beat several Wardens in fights!
>tragic backstory!
>Certainly a new sidekick for Harry in future adventures!

Then you find out

Her reliance on it meant she was absolutely steamrolled in a fair fight, despite Harry going easy on her initially and Lasciel helping her

She tried desperately to use that beauty to charm and control people, but failed miserably, again despite Lasciel helping her

The wardens, given the recent wars, were almost certainly young and inexperienced

Her fall was entirely her own fault. She blamed Harry for wiping out the order for her own selfish reasons, despite the fact that they would have gladly suffered much worse if it meant destroying the Red Court

>You do not belong as a minor character, whatsherface
>I don't?
>You will come into your own in a short story, and thrive!
>I will?!
>Heh, no, tartarused

>>48013870
Carlos is my FAVORITE side-character, because it sort of seems like he's having all these kickass offscreen adventures. Plus his personality is pretty amusing.

>Carlos: "How do you know that they won't just turn around and kill us anyway when we win the duel?"
>Harry's Narration: That's what I love about working with Ramirez. The idea that we might actually LOOSE the duel never even enters his head.

>>48013869
That reveal was great, but it basically means that either A) every book where there's the possibility of the Denarians being involved will need that sort of double-blind, or more likely B) sometime soon there's going to be a "Dresden comes up with a shadow purifying spell that runs constantly" scene.

Because Nick is going to murder Dresden given half a chance, and though Anduriel needs to focus on a specific shadow he's definitely going to be spying on Dresden a ton.

>>48013892
I got that in the book, I didn't think it was a targeted fuck you.

Side note- Does the FATE game have rules for doing something like becoming a Sidhe Knight, or something similar for getting a bunch of power through a deal? It seems like any decent player character is not going to have the Refresh rate for it, unless there's a 'Winter Knight' Aspect.

>>48013842
>>48013854
I'll say it again, fanfiction isn't new, nor necessarily bad.

All that changed with the internet was that distribution became much larger, while disconnected from any review and editing community.

Romeo and Juliet is a rewrite. Taming of the Shrew had a sequel written as a critique by another author and published in Shakespeare lifetime.
Telling stories with Saints and Biblical figures was most of fictional writing during the medieval era.

Fanfiction can still be a good way to start writing and develop skills, if handled correctly. The 1632 series collects, polishes, and publishes the best fan fiction in that setting.

>>48013935
Definitely. His completely different approach to combat magic is also refreshing. Would be neat if we could learn more about how that works.

Molly and him are teaming up in the upcoming short story coming November, IIRC.

>>48013888
I stuck through the audiobooks, and I'm glad I did.

It's like Marster's narration improves with the books.
The first two were very choppy and felt too subdued, though it didn't help that the editing was clearly a rush job.

Then later on, you get bits like "God Forgive me" and "BURN"

>>48013931
that's not fanfiction, that's bad writing. While correlated, they aren't identical.

>>48013962
> Does the FATE game have rules for doing something like becoming a Sidhe Knight, or something similar for getting a bunch of power through a deal?
sponsered powered.

You can basically take a loan on FATE points that you can use to get boosts, make declarations etc.

But at some point in the future the GM can call in those loans.

Technically only through sponsored magic in the books, but I totally applied it to other sorts of powers.

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>>48012153
I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be From Dusk 'Til Dawn vampires

>>48013962
It's pretty easy to make a Fix or Lloyd Slate as a legal 10 Refresh starting char.
>>48013993
Carlos actually uses Water magic.
His entropy blasts and shields are an expression of Water as a force of erosion that wears down matter and energy, so he's basically employing high precision Water magic and uses the "conceptual" aspects of the element rather then the actual thing.
So yes; despite being a cocky fucker he actually IS extremely talented since Harry blows at subtle and conceptual magic.

>Carlos While Blasting Ghouls: "Ow! Ow! OW! It hurts to BE THIS GOOD!"

>>48014101
>His entropy blasts and shields are an expression of Water as a force of erosion that wears down matter and energy, so he's basically employing high precision Water magic and uses the "conceptual" aspects of the element rather then the actual thing.
Yeah. I think that was mostly covered in the book, and the RPG characters section. Was more in reference to his focuses (gauntlet especially). We never learn about other wizard's tools beyond what Harry sees.

>>48014101
>It's pretty easy to make a Fix or Lloyd Slate as a legal 10 Refresh starting char.

I meant more in terms of 'something happening to the PC during the campaign'. You get to a point like Changes where you need to make a deal, but suddenly that makes you non-playable.>>48014042 answered it well, which I appreciate.

>>48014096
No, they actually have a mythological basis.

There's a kind of Mesoamerican/Central American bat-demon thing called a "Camatzoz" which is a blood-drinking creature that looks like (wait for it) a giant humanoid bat monster with a fat belly full of blood. They could be appeased with blood sacrifices so they wouldn't take your loved ones.
The 13 Lords of Night and Kukulkan (the Red King) are a different myth from the same region.

The only things Butcher invented about the Red Court are the skin suit things they wear and the narcotic drool.

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>>48014219

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>>48014236
Okay, that was NOT the picture I posted but whatever; fuck you too 4chan.

>>48014293
Still relevant at least.

>>48013888
>Also, if you like audiobooks, Changes has likely the best reading of any of them. The climax, fuck.
>>48013995
>Then later on, you get bits like "God Forgive me"

Everyone says that was incredible and they cried at it, etc, but I really didn't get that. it felt like a highschool drama kid's interpretation of the event would have been. A hollow, flat, emotionless delivery would have, ironically, been a much more emotional one, in my opinion.

>>47999577
>nwod
>humans are shit and useless
They can break magic by watching it and they're a vampire's worst nightmare if they learn their existence. Regular humans are dangerous in nWoD.

>>48014494
it was flat and emotionless, then he breaks.
It lets you build up yourself without forcing it on you, then give you a point to break with him.

Having no point for emotional release is just almost as bad as melodrama.

So everyone on here figured out that Cowl was some kind of alternate future version of Harry going back into the past to change things, right? It was one scene in Skin Game that confirmed it for me.

>>48014617
Which scene?

>>48014617
>So everyone on here figured out that Cowl was some kind of alternate future version of Harry going back into the past to change things, right? It was one scene in Skin Game that confirmed it for me.
What.

>>48014617
u wot, lad?

To paraphrase Lu Tze, there is no Harry Dresden that murders tens of thousands of people for power, because that man would no longer be Harry Dresden.

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>>48014617

>>48014617
Are you rusing us?

>>48014617
It's been suggested a hundred times on the forums.

Not sure it adds up, but Jim confirmed that Dresden would break all the laws of magic at one point or another I think.

>>48014910
He's also pretty obviously a big fan of fucking the fans about for the sheer fun of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he lurked forums and deliberately misdirected people and/or took on the most painful ideas for Harry that he hadn't yet thought of

>>48014650
Harry uses the spell "DOROSH" in Skin Game at one scene. We know from Harry's monologue that Wizards personalize their own command words even when trained the same; Elaine and Harry both have called lightning, but Harry uses "Fulminos!" and Elaine uses "Fulminides!", similar but different. Cowl hits him with the EXACT same spell command in Dead Beat.
>>48014700
>>48014768
Cowl has a sidekick named Kumori, the Japanese word for bat. Molly uses Japanese words for magic. We know from "The Warrior" short story that Harry could made an alternate choice at Demonreach that ended up in Michael's crippling Michael might have DIED. We also know that Kumori was interested in "ending death" for some reason. Cowl KNEW where Bob was, which is impossible for anyone on the Council to know because he has told NO ONE on the Council about Bob. In Proven Guilty someone fixes Harry's Little Chicago table despite him having told literally no one about it, and Bob admits that to do that not only would they have to KNOW about it they would have to know exactly where to look for the flaw, which is double-impossible. Cowl ALSO spots Harry scrying on him through the table, which again Harry notes shouldn't have been possible. We know Harry has the potential to "become" an Outsider in some way because of how he defeated HWWB, and that Outsiders can act "outside" of time. Cowl seems to know where everyone is going to be before they even get there. Harry classifies Cowl's magic as "dark" but not like the other Kemmlerites, and we know Harry is visibly "stained" with dark magic by the loa that he asked for help. We know to change the future you have to act indrecitly to avoid a paradox, and Cowl ONLY acts through proxies. And finally, an upcoming book is called "Mirror Mirror" and is about alternate timelines and alternate universes. Cowl is an alternate version of Harry gone full evil trying to fix some mistake he perceives the White Council did.

>>48014910
Aspect: Too Cool For Rules

>>48014945
>I wouldn't be surprised if he lurked forums and deliberately misdirected people.
But that would be silly.

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>>48014992
Oh, of course, anon.

Also, does anyone have any ideas how Badly Murphy is going to get fucked over, now she's been injured and is in Harry's personal zone of JUST?

Just curious.

>>48015024
I wasn't calling the painful ideas for Harry part silly. That's just to be expected. He has books to write and wouldn't be the Dresden Files without it.

Also screw these new captcha frames.

>>48014992
exactly the sort of silly that Jim would do.
The term 'furies' from the Furies series came from Big Trouble in Little China.
His first two series were made basically on dares.

>>48014768
According to what he threatened Mavra with there's a version of Harry Dresden perfectly willing to do that.

>>48014972
>Harry uses the spell "DOROSH" in Skin Game at one scene
I'm not saying you're lying, but I can't for the life of me remember that

As for the rest of it, it's circumstantial enough to not be anything concrete right now.
Besides, the most damning part is that Cowl's height is never mentioned.

it's small, but Harry is a big enough guy that it would be immediately noticeable, and he's too shit at Illusions to consistently alter his perception of height throughout all the shit Cowl went through.
If nothing else, Harry would use the height to see if it correlated with any council members

>>48015103
IIRC, the darkhallow doesn't require killing, it just happens to kill anyone within range.

>>48014972
To clarify, I think Cowl has been alive longer then Harry and his manipulations of the original timeline go back before even the first book, so the reason he can't see EVERYTHING that happens is because he's changed a lot of it already and this version of Harry isn't the one that became him eventually.

Oh, and when Harry first meets Kumori and Cowl in Dead Beat, he walks with his face lowered and then looks at them at the last second to be all menacing. He THINKS he sees them rock back a tiny bit because of the look on his face, then decides he probably imagined it. They actually ARE surprised because Cowl and Kumori alike recognized Harry as Cowl's younger self. In addition Kumori wanted very much to negotiate with Harry (she's in love with him remember) while Cowl just figured he'd blast the shit out of him until he went away, showcasing Molly and Harry's differing personalities and modus operandi. He says "let's see what the Wardens were so afraid of" because he's fighting HIMSELF and he's curious to see how badass he is in this timeline and if the Warden's fear of him was justified. It's possible Cowl is setting up Harry by "testing" him to make him tougher over time, but I think Cowl is basically Harry listening to "Id Harry" that Harry has periodic conversations with and nobody else anymore, a version of Harry that is so convinced that he's doing the right thing that he doesn't see the difference between right or wrong anymore. That's why Harry's words to him in Dead Beat sort of hit him long enough for him to give him a long pause; he was hearing him tell HIMSELF that he's gone crazy.

Cowl: "I don't...perceive myself to be insane. But the mad never do, I suppose.

>>48014910
Well, let's take stock.

First Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
Second Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others"
Third Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another"
Fourth Law of Magic "Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another"
Fifth Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life"
Sixth Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time"
Seventh Law of Magic: "Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates"

We know for certain that he's already broken the First with DuMorne. His ghostly "posession" of Molly during GhoStory might count for the Third. The Fifth, Sixth and the Seventh are practically guaranteed to happen at some point sooner or later, considering his character and the story so far (after all there's even bets he's going to end up replacing Rashid sooner or later).

The only ones I can't see him breaking at some point are the Second and the Fourth, desu.

>>48015228
One could rules-lawyer and say that it's an alternate Dresden from some other universe that breaks the Second and Fourth laws, in which case that still satisfies what Jim said, I think.

Still kind of agree. Presumably no alternate Dresden would have control or inclination to break the Second law.

>>48015122
It also requires that you consume a phenomenal amount of spiritual energy. It would be practically impossible to pull off without killing a bunch of people, because you'd need to do the ritual in a place that was full of energy. Even with all the turbulence and shit that was going down in Chicago over the past few years (and the dark leylines from Demonsreach running through the area) they still needed to cultivate a feeling of fear and chaos in the city.

And those were professional necromancers, not some desperate wizard thug like Harry.

I'm sad that necromancy is so frowned upon and life-ruining in the universe, the idea of keeping the heartbeat with your own drum is really cool and I want to work that into a game

>>48015104
I actually have a hard time with the height thing myself, couldn't tell you.
It's circumstantial, but it DOES explain a lot of things left unexplained and also fits in with how time travel and time manipulation is described to Harry, as well as Uriel's explanation of how choice and free will works.
>>48015103
Harry's ENTIRE thing is that he does the right thing, or what he thinks is the right thing, and to rescue Maggie he even threatens to use the Darkhollow and any number of other sources of power he has access too if nothing else works.
What if Harry's life fell apart so bad that he concluded the only way to do the right thing was to go back and change everything that led to it, specifically going back and killing the White Council? Harry HAS been pushed into breaking the Laws before when desperate enough and angry enough, remember.

>>48015269
Controlling spirits like Mortimer did was fine, as is necromancy on animals. Just means that you'd be begging for a stern talking-to by tired, overworked, probably unamused Wardens.

Theoretically one could get away with keeping it there.

>>48015269
That's actually a straight-up classic Voodoo thing; you need to beat the drum to make the zombie think it's heart is still beating.

>>48015269
The whole turbulence and mass spirit inducing was the requirement to be a god though.

While I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure it's implied, if not outright stated, that Kemmler performed more minor versions for the increments in power that made him such a nightmare to deal with.

When threatening Mavra, a wizard with Harry's raw power getting more of it wouldn't be something to sneeze at.

>>48015269
alternate universe. Or just stick to non-humans, that's how harry got away with it.

I actually had an NPC who was a 'good' necromancer in the game that sadly got canceled. He played it as just being and extomancer (which he also was), but his family could also pull off true necromancy.

They were good, because the families rules were stronger than the Fifth Law. They are bond to guard the borders of life. They're pretty much in tatters now because they teamed up with the WC against Kemler and the majority sacrificed themselves to from march Kemler into death after the WC finally brought him down.

>>48014910
>>48014975
>>48015228
>>48015310
Butcher explained on a forum once that while the Laws of Magic are indeed like the Laws of Theromodynamics and are actual metaphysical laws, the ones the Council enforces are more legal in nature and they don't know precisely where the Law as a physical rule and the Law as a Council-enforced legal thing ends because of their complete refusal to experiment or toe the edge of the Laws themselves.
An example of this weakness is how shitty their mental defense training is because they refuse to even explore the most gentle aspects of the Third and Fourth Laws.
>>48015349
Actually what they said about Kemmler is when they killed him in WWII for the (second? third?) time, he was TRYING to perform a Darkhollow but the Council cornered him before he could complete and double-extra-plus killed him.
Kemmler was as powerful as he was because he was just as crazy motherfucker who was shockingly good at necromancy and understanding death. Even according to Mab he was "brilliant" and considering how sparse Mab is with ANY compliments of any kind at all that must be really saying some shit.

I REALLY hope Kemmler himself shows up (in flashback or otherwise) at some point, if only because I want to see just how full supervillain he was; guy apparently was the single most competent moral human being that's ever existed, as nobody else has managed to get killed and then come right the fuck back.
Even Harry didn't properly "die" in Ghost Story and Mav and Demonreach were keeping his body alive even as he went all Spirit Quest on everybody.

>>48015448
Harry's raising up Sue is an example of the "breaking the Law but technically not actually breaking the Law"; he's obviously committing necromancy, but the Law states that you can't do it to a HUMAN.
Not that the White Council ever cares about the fine print.

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>>48015104
>Harry is a big enough guy

By whose standards?

>>48015486
it's magic, they LOVE the 'letter of the law' stuff.

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>>48015515

>>48015460
>guy apparently was the single most competent moral human being that's ever existed

I really hope you meant a word other than 'moral'. 'Mortal' doesn't really fit him either, given the 'needed to kill him more than once' thing.

>>48015545
I imagine it's because there are indeed metaphysical consequences to breaking the Laws too much or too severely.
Basically, they COULD experiment and conclusively define where the "law" ends and where the "Laws" begin, but doing so would involve one Wizard deliberately making the choice to risk his sanity and mental stability as he explored the boundary line and eventually crossed over.

Elaine is another example; the mindfog she summoned up at the WalMart where the Chlorofiend attacked Harry and Murphy in Summer Knight is definitely a violation of the Council's legal laws against mind manipulation, but I think it's one of those "gets by on a technicality" thing for the physical Laws: you AREN'T technically invading another's mind or enthralling another, you're just summoning up a fog thing that happens to be in a place that somebody MIGHT walk into at some point.
You're not targeting anyone or doing anything like that and you can't commanding them to do anything or looking at their thoughts, you're kinda leaving a magical mental smoke screen that happens to placed in a specific area that might be where someone is.

>>48015545
The Sidhe do, and people who are party to the Accords play by those rules on pain of Mab, but the White Council has no problem bending the rules as it sees fit (the Doom of Damocles is basically them saying, "The rules say X, but there's extenuating circumstances and we'll cut you some slack). I'm sure that if you tried to do something like >>48015310 suggests and be an necro-beastmaster that they'd kill you on general principle and justify the loophole later (assuming the Wardens have time for it). Mort got away with his ectomancy, but I'm sure there's plenty of Wardens who would have geeked him given half a chance.

>>48015657
On my phone. Stupid autocorrect.
And "Mortal" as in a human being i meant. I don't think he STAID mortal; my guess is he basically went full D&D Lich at the end there which is why he was so hard to permanently drop.
Still quite an accomplishment since nobody else that we've ever heard of has managed to stand down the entire White Council by himself.

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>>48015720
Harry specifically calls out the mindfog as illegal; you're not allowed to loophole your way out through stuff like, "It was the fall that killed them, my wind just pushed them over the edge," or "I invaded all the minds in a given area, it's not my fault that there happened to be people there with minds to invade."

>>48015720
I think Elaine really was affected by casting the Mind Fog.

It's fairly clear that she would have been an incredibly shitty person without Harry's influence.

>>48015310
>>48015733
Technically, Morty isn't breaching the boundaries of life and death; the ghosts he controls STAY dead and he just manipulates ectoplasm to give them physical shape for a little while.
But yeah it seems that the White Council is not very forgiving, especially when it comes to recent memory because
A: Arthur Langtry hates fun and
B: DuMorne was a big badass warlock but ALSO a big badass Warden before he was killed and so Harry's training to be a warlock (as the Council sees it) and an important figure when it came to the Wardens puts the Council in very negative light the last thirty-odd years or so, which makes the Merlin get edgy and nervous about his position so he decides to crack down extra harder then they usually do.

>>48015787
Except Butters made that same mindfog in a bottle in Skin Game. Is it still illegal if it's a normal human with an incredibly competent spirit sidekick doing it?

>>48015720
I think that it was fog was the important bit, but because she was neither looking into their thoughts or inserting a complete thought or compulsion.

There seems to be some gray area for softer 'suggestion' magic.
Like 'dormis' being used to help people sleep after something fucked up being generally accepted. Wards that made a place look uninteresting, or people not wanting to go through the door.

You can know someone is being hit, and even a specific person. It just has to be a suggestion, not a compulsion.

>>48015733
>geeked him given a chance
no. Ectomancy is very much allowed. Mort was terrified that they would be over zealous, but it's implied he's overreacting there.
ectomancy is fine.

>>48015852
Probably counts in the legal sense for the White Council, assuming they go by the 'you use things without free will as tools, they don't count as independent entities' rule. Dunno about the metaphysical ramifications for whether or not that stains Butters magically.

Molly broke a bunch of Laws too while she was crazy rag-lady; it's just that no one is around to enforce them.

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>>48015733
>I'm sure that if you tried to do something like >>48015310 (You) suggests and be an necro-beastmaster that they'd kill you on general principle and justify the loophole later

>>48015852
His mind fog was much smaller, a lot shorter lasting, and only used on non-humans. That's a good bit of leeway.

>>48015870
>>geeked him given a chance
>no. Ectomancy is very much allowed. Mort was terrified that they would be over zealous, but it's implied he's overreacting there.
>ectomancy is fine.

So's Dresden using Toot for info, but Morgan still tried to intimidate him (but was foiled because Harry knew the Laws and wasn't scared).

I can definitely see Morgan on a slow day doing something 'proactive' like prodding suspected warlocks into making a mistake, then cutting their heads off nice and legal-like. Saves him work in the future, according to fanatic-logic.

>>48015811
Elaine doesn't seems like she'd be a shitty person; she does what almost every average person in the world does when confronted with trouble and responsibility, namely she tries to avoid it at first.
Harry even says most of the Wizards don't do even half of the shit he does and basically stay home and be magical geeks inside their hidey-holes and avoid trouble entirely.

Meanwhile Harry's first reaction to finding out something shady is going on is to run screaming towards it while blasting it with fire and shit.

>>48015934
yes, but Morgan hates Dresden something extra special. That's not the normal attitude of Wardens to practitioners.

>>48015934
Luccio also noted that a lot of the other Wardens passed around rumors that Morgan treated Dresden differently then other suspects but that she didn't really seriously believe them.
Morgan's fanatical adherence to the Laws was exceptional in many ways, and it seems a lot can be a lot more reasonable when it comes to shit.

He's just the Merlin's favorite thug because he's unquestioning in his loyalty to the laws themselves.

>>48016006
Harry's basically a walking refutal of Morgan's entire life; anti-authoritarian, a Lawbreaker who definitely means well and isn't insane or evil, trained by a Warden friend of his who was a huge traitor but not evil himself, and last but not least, banging the woman Morgan had been in love with since pretty much forever.
Morgan was inflexible and rigid as Luccio pointed out and his stubborness along with centuries of doing that one thing and keeping to it regardless of actual right or wrongs kind of fucked up his ability to be objective where Dresden was concerned.

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>>48016103
>trained by a Warden friend of his who was a huge traitor but not evil himself

?

Justin definitely broke the Laws doing stuff like brainwashing Elaine, summoning He Who Walks Behind to get Dresden, and (IIRC) offering Dresden a drink of human blood to seal their deal. That's pretty fucking evil.

People actually still read this garbage?

Aren't you out of high school yet?

>>48016194
No, as in Harry was TRAINED by an evil Warden and wasn't even alerted to the existence of the White Council or the Laws of Magic as a kid at ALL and yet he's turned out not only basically okay as a person but more actively heroic then a lot of other conventionally trained Wizards.

Basically Morgan's spent his whole life protecting this one way of doing things because he assumed it's the ONLY correct way of getting anything done without you going full evil and shit, and then Harry comes along and basically proves his entire dedication to this code of conduct is a lie; you don't NEED to be a fastidiously devoted to the law as Morgan is to be a good person and can even be a hero as long as you actively choose to deny the negative side of yourself and keep making up for your mistakes.

If Morgan admits that this is possible then he's basically got to admit to himself that many of the people he's been executing for literally over a century or so MIGHT have basically been decent people who made mistakes that he murdered without ever giving them a chance to redeem themselves and many might actually indeed been savable if anyone only bothered to try.

Nobody ever wants to find out that their life might be a complete pile of bullshit and people like finding out that they're basically unrepentant murderers even less so, especially if they actively see themselves as the Good Guy like Morgan does.

>>47998609
There is space, and it's hinted at throughout the books. Harry is dealing with the seelie and unseelie, and a few other things, pretty exclusively. That's cool and all, but then there's all these other little things that come up. Like the Fomorians, they're a big deal even in Chicago, but Harry does nothing with them. Or the Loa – Harry summons one once, in one of the early books, and that's their full relevance to his story. But now we know, the Loa are a thing in the Dresden Files. Even the things Harry does deal with a lot, like vampires and fairies: There's the asiatic vampire courts, which aren't explored, and when Harry jumps blind into the fey realm, he lands in the court of the goblin king, a fey court on par with the seelie and unseelie, and yet totally unrelated to them or their feud.

It's pretty clear that Butcher intends the world to be full of big significant stuff that just isn't in the books because Harry doesn't interact with or care about it.

>>47998967
A custom-built module on the Apocalypse Engine would probably be your best bet.

>>47997769
Seems like you'd need to find some other Dresden Files fans to play it. Otherwise you'd have to talk folks into it. I've put serious thought into incorporating things from the series into a game if I ever get to be a GM though. The Knights of the Blackened Denarius, Paladins of the Sword, and the Faerie and Vampire Courts among other things.

Where the fuck is book 16 by the way?

>>48006774
Unknown Armies. Maybe Delta Green depending on your definitions of those words.

>>48015887
>Molly broke a bunch of Laws too while she was crazy rag-lady; it's just that no one is around to enforce them
it's heavily implied that pre-cold days, the wardens had a kill/capture order out on molly the moment harry "died". post-cold days, molly has the sort of diplomatic immunity 80's action movie villains could only dream of

>>48016543
>Where the fuck is book 16 by the way
jim wants to write steampunk (crystalpunk?) instead. god this fad needs to pass

>>48016319
> MIGHT have basically been decent people who made mistakes that he murdered without ever giving them a chance to redeem themselves and many might actually indeed been savable if anyone only bothered to try.
most wardens are aware of this.
They are also aware they don't have the resources to do it, and if they are too late to catch them before Lawbreaking, their is a chance they can't be turned around, a chance that gets worse the longer it takes to catch them.

Rehabilitating one warlock is close to a fulltime job for an experianced wizard. there just aren't enough of them.

>>48016575
until it hits two years, calm your tits.

>>48016549
I think the order got tied up in paperwork, and everyone in charge of pushing it forward made sure it stayed tied.

Even if it was issued, the person in charge of carrying it out was making negative effort to do so.

>>48006608
His raw magical power goes up, especially in Changes, but it's not inordinate for his age. What makes him a badass is his luck, bloody-mindedness, experience in shitstorms, and other such protagonist traits. Killing fairy queens and vampires is a big deal on a general scale, but not on a White Council scale. Many of the others could have done that shit but didn't, because if they had it would have caused the shit that it did cause when Harry did it.

>>48006992
The shit he does indicates battle competence and a propensity to get into trouble, not necessarily raw magical power. Keep in mind that Harry protects his city, while many wizards who aren't wardens don't give a fuck, and many wardens would call for more experienced backup.

>>48006884
>Bear belt
Remind me what this is?

>>48006901
Pain tolerance is something that improves really quickly with adrenaline.

>>48008148
He also has three methods of immortality at his disposal and has only used one. If he tried, he could be immortal thrice over, albeit at a steep cost thrice over.

>>48016543
He started on it earlier this month. Expect it in about a year.

>>48009535
I really liked Changes, just because of how much changes.

>>48016524
>A custom-built module on the Apocalypse Engine would probably be your best bet.

Urban Shadows with maybe some custom playbooks could work.

>player reveals he enjoys reading Butcher

That's basically a sure sign that he's a That Guy of the power-masturbation type.

>>48006608

Man, the show was garbage, but I honestly cannot see Harry as anyone other than Paul Blackthorne, receding hairline and all. I know it's canonically inaccurate, but 'tall, lanky-but-with-muscle and thick, MANLY hair that CANNOT BE TAMED' is just so... silly. I don't recall him ever describing himself as handsome (I, admittedly, would never want to fuck Harry and thus do not remember precisely) and yet every image of him is this incredibly bog-standard hilarious self insert.

>>48011433
I wouldn't say terrible. It's wish fulfillment and pulp, and it's got some hugely formulaic aspects, and these traits are usually considered plebian. But it fills its goals at being those things very well.

>>48016705
>>Bear belt
>Remind me what this is?

It's in Blood Rites, and possibly elsewhere- he stores a bunch of extra energy in the belt, then he uses it to supercharge himself (or at least get back up to fighting strength).

I don't know if it gets mentioned again in another book.

>>48015577


ahahahahahahah oh god I get it

fuck you

>>48016728
Could you use a Denarius and be a Sidhe Knight at the same time? Feels like your will would be too co-opted by one to go with the other.

>>48016845
He describes himself as lanky, with no muscle definition (Thomas has a six-pack, Harry wishes he had one) and with a face that's more sharp than good-looking. A lot of the time, when he catches his reflection in public, he muses that he looks more dangerous and a little unhinged than handsome.

Don't know about his hair game.

>>48016971
As of Cold Days Harry had to grow out LONG MANLY HAIR since he didn't want fairies getting ahold of it. Knowing the author it's probably stayed that way since.

>>48016845
We know from Molly, Murphy, Susan, and a couple other well-meaning folks trying to set him up that in-universe, Harry does have at least some handsome qualities, of the "tall, dark, with a painful past" variety. The fact that he's a giant wiseass nerd inside is a reveal that only comes with getting to know him better.
That said, my first contact with the Dresden Files was also through the series, and bad as it might have been as a representation I can't get that image out of my head either. Handsome Cowboy! Harry just doesn't fit his character.

>>48016842
Cool.

>>48016938
please explain, I didn't get it

>>48017044
Assuming it's four of a type of Sheep breed that sounds like You or something.

>>48017044
we baneposting now.
now what are female sheep?

>>48017004
That seems like a bad plan. Having had both long and short hair, it's a lot easier to have hairs break off if you're in hippy mode than it is to just keep it buzzed short (though he'd have to use a razor and scissors instead of clippers, so it might be harder).

>>48017079
I strongly suspect Jim Butcher would never allow Harry to go baldish for any reason, no matter the practicality or how nice wind feels on the scalp.

>>48017004
>LONG MANLY HAIR
Fucking Fae, they have to try to murder fuck everything, can't even let a man get a damn hair cut.

Someone should just dump a huge pile of iron in their realm with a sticky note reading "Please fuck off forever."

>>48017076
Ewes.
Oh, you magnificent bastard.

>>48016705
>Killing fairy queens and vampires is a big deal on a general scale, but not on a White Council scale. Many of the others could have done that shit but didn't, because if they had it would have caused the shit that it did cause when Harry did it.
vamps in general, maybe. but killing faries queens/assaulting the red court stronghold at full strength/pretty much everything involving demonreach is not "normal wizards could do it". to the point that when they're trying to confront harry, they're sending members of the senior council to back up the wardens

>>48017109
counterpoint: is there a single powerful fay harry hasn't pissed off yet? outside of santa and his as yet unknown counterpart

>>48017164
Eldest Gruff. Lea seems to like him well enough, like someone who raises foxes and drops them off in neighbour's henhouses to watch them run. The Mothers don't really hate him.

>>48017164
I don't think we know of any powerful Fae that DO hate Harry specifically at the moment, except Titania.
Which, granted, is a heck of an enemy to have, but he has Mab's protection and the favour, more or less, of both Summer AND Winter Lady to balance it out.

>>48017164
>counterpoint: is there a single powerful fay harry hasn't pissed off yet?
Of course. Though I doubt it's from lack of trying. I mean, technically, Jesus loves him. Then again, Jesus would never try to do some shady magic shit in Chicago.

Easter Bunny? Or is he Fae too? Fuck. Harry just steps on everyone'[s toes. In a way, he's a HUGE asshole. You'd think villains would just stop doing weird magic shit in Chicago, but we keep getting more books.

>>48017251
Fix probably hates him after Cold Days. Redcap doesn't like him either.

On the side of 'Sidhe who like Harry', there's also the Erlking and the only Major-General in all of Faerie.

>>48016655
Molly was also avoiding the killing, and she's good at that. It doesn't take negative effort, it just takes a minimum of fucks given.

>>48016971
>Could you use a Denarius and be a Sidhe Knight at the same time?
Well apparently you can be a Sidhe Knight and White Council at once, so I don't see why not.

>>48017127
Oh, yeah in Changes and later he's beyond the baseline of power.

>>48017281

Going on a tangent here, but you're raising an interesting point re:Harry being an asshole.
Because if you think about it, he kind of is! And that's exactly what makes him such an interesting character- he has some bad sides as well as some good. Take his relationship with Marcone, for instance-he's far from being the worst thing he's encountered by now, and in fact they've worked on the same side almost as often as not in late years. In a different series, they would've at least become frenemies at this point, But nope; Marcone is criminal scum, and Harry won't take even a half step back or stop antagonising him for a minute. Mab is a giant ice bitch, but she could've been more manageable if he actually tried brushing up his manners before the threats- but he doesn't. In some things he's nearly as uncompromising as Morgan, and that's exactly what has given him the strength to avoid slipping off that slippery slope all these years.

>>48017294
>Fix
He might never be buddies with him again, but I don't think Harry did anything to earn his enmity at this point. If anything, Harry's the one who (indirectly) took revenge on Maeve for splattering Lily's brains across the field.
That one Redcap probably does hate his guts, but I sincerely doubt he was anything but a lackey.We're talking powerful Fae here.

>>48017306
I'm not saying she couldn't have avoided it if they tried.
I'm saying it's established that Ramerez is actively not trying.
It's known she's in Chicago, and he never even comes to the midwest. That's negative effort.

>>48016793
>He started on it earlier this month.

He just started on it? It's been like two years since Skin Game, and shit is really getting good.

>>48016575
>jim wants to write steampunk (crystalpunk?) instead

Fucking artists.... I wonder how long it'll take me to reread the entire series again.

>>48017355
Yeah, pretty much. Harry is an asshole because he feels like if he shows kindness to those he finds to be monsters, he'll become them. So, he steps on their toes instead, burning every bridge he comes across, so that he'll never be tempted to go to the dark side. Mostly because no one will want him.

>>48017407
Ι believe the other anon means that Molly avoided killing anyone, even as the Rag Lady. In fact, I don't think we established she actually broke any laws during that time, only that she was suspected of doing so/was wanted because the Doom was still hanging over her head with no Harry to hold it in bay. Ramirez might be inclined to arrest her for simply existing, but as much as he might've liked her he certainly wouldn't overlook her going full warlock.

>>48017333
The White Council doesn't co-opt his will in the same way that the others do. I can't imagine Mab telling you to do something and the Fallen Angel inside saying, "No," or vice versa.

>>48017346
Even before Changes, he blasts his way through Bianca (a sorceress of no small means) and all her retainers. That's Warden-tier stuff, and a very good Warden at that.

>>48017432
He started it months ago - last year, in fact. That anon is lying to you.

>>48017452
Not to mention, even if we wanted to be a hardass, he would have known it was hard to find her and he had better shit to do than try.

>>48017459
>I can't imagine Mab telling you to do something and the Fallen Angel inside saying, "No," or vice versa.
I can. That sounds exactly like something Butcher would write.

>>48017467
He started it a long time ago, but the last update says that as of June 2016 it's still in the writing phase, so it's a long way off from done.

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>>48017124

Have another one, anon!

>>48017459
A sorceress is way lower level than white council.

>>48017452
Assuming you left a 'not' out of that last sentence, I kinda agree.

She did push pretty hard on the 'no violating minds' line during that time, and given that's what got her the Doom, and even the Doom by itself is technically a death sentence with Harry dead, Ramirez would have plenty of grounds to hunt her down if he wanted to.
And he clearly is not doing that.

Hence my saying no ones pushing through the paperwork, and it's not just a factor of being too busy. There is an active decision being made to not go after her.

However, I agree this is in large part because the Wardens in charge did not think she'd gone full warlock. They don't want to go after her, so they're willing to bend the rules at least in terms of enforcement.

>>48017523
For general magic? Yeah. For fighting? I believe the phrase used is 'hell on wheels'. He burned half her retainers on his way out, then came back (into one of their traps, which he muscled through), then challenged and overcame Bianca, her vamps, and machine gun goons through main force.

>>48017467
I can't wait much longer. Fuck.

>>48017572
Yeah, nobody contests that Harry is powerful with regards to thuggery.

>>48017504
it has been less than a year.
Butcher's been able to keep close to the one book per year schedule, lets not go acting like he's GRRM or Rothfuss who don't have a history of making deadlines.

>>48017504
He IS taking his sweet time with it, but it's not that atypical really. He's not going full Rothfuss or GRRM on us, at least. It seems like he's using AW as a way to recharge off of Dresden, same way Sanderson uses his different series to not get burnt out just writing one thing all the time.

Let's face it - Butcher put out 15 Dresden novels in 15 years. As much fun as I'm sure it is to torture Harry, Butcher has earned a bit of a break.

>>48017618

We need a ranking score for people who never deliver. I propose, from worse to hands-down worse, "Decu --> planefag --> Fred Ghallager"

>>48017557
I did, indeed.
>Ramirez might *not* be inclined to hunt her down just for existing

>>48017647
Personally, I just wish his new series ends up as fun reading through as Codex Alera was. So far, not getting the vibe.

>>48017755
Haven't touched either Codex Alera or Aeronaut's Windlass yet. Should get around to that eventually. Maybe this fall.

>>48017780
Codex Alera is pretty fun. Nothing great, but pretty fun.
First book is better than the first DF books, but does still suffer and there are some soft recons from it.

Also demonstrates that Jim is not just a horndog always ogling the women. About 2/3 of the ogling is of men by women.

>>48017780
You should. Codex Alera is a fascinating series while being almost entirely different in style from the Dresden Files. Aeronaut's Windlass started lukewarm, but it has potential yet.

>>48012192
I kind of liked storm front, though it maybe only the fantastic audiobook reading that I remember fondly. I remember getting a good laugh when Dresden blew the tires out on his pursuers' truck.

>>48017862
My favourite little thing I read about DF was a response to someone's complaints about how there's so much 'male gaze'.

The answer was
A) Yes, Dresden has a working penis
2) That's the style for pulpy mystery books
III) There's a direct correlation between 'oogling' and 'last time Dresden had sex'. It's just that there's a big gap after Susan, so he practically cums when a woman brushes past him, but when he starts hooking up with Luccio it goes way down.

>>48017207
It still bothers me she wasn't seen at all in Cold Days or Skin Game. You'd think she'd at least have shown up for his birthday.

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>>48017467
I must have misread something. Thought his website's FAQ said it was started in June this year.

Thanks for correcting me. Whether or not I'm insane, the website now says mid-2016, so I am happy.

>>48018055
?

>As of June 2016: Jim is currently writing Peace Talks (#16), so we’re still quite a ways from having a release date.

http://www.jim-butcher.com/faq/upcoming-works

No date of it coming out any time soon, but it's definitely not going to happen in 2016; even if he finished tomorrow, the editing, rewriting, re-editing, layout and printing would take months.

>>48016575
Is The Aeronaut’s Windlass even any good? Because man the blurb about it sounded so uninteresting.

>>48018162
It mostly seemed like it was getting the setting and future books set up, more than anything. There were a few great scenes and characters were amusing enough, but it fell a little flat IMO.

>>48018113
>A. 23 or 24: 20 or 21 “case books,” like those we’ve seen so far, capped with a double-length apocalyptic trilogy. Book #16, Peace Talks does not have a release date yet, but we predict it may arrive mid-2016.

This statement is probably much older and inaccurate. They should update that.

>>47999001
>if a book isnt trying to be meaningful literature, its bad
>if something isnt the next best thing ever, its bad

The narratives have strong pace if a bit predictable, the characters are realistic and relatable, the world is interesting and feels alive. Butcher's prose is neither imposing in it's complexity nor boring in its consumability. He commits absolutely no sins of writing in his style or construction, but employs enough skill and depth to keep the books belonging in adult fiction.

It's good, clean fun without trying to be anything else.

Go fuck yourself for even insinuating it needs to be more. People like you destroy good things with your hyper-polarized contrarianism.

>>48017862
>>48017999
Another proof of it; whenever Butcher writes from the POV of any character OTHER then Harry (including Murphy, Molly, Marcone, and Thomas) they don't actually notice women at all in their narration.

It's especially noticeable with Thomas; you'd think because he's a literal sex vampire that he'd notice women MORE in his POV, but disturbingly that's now how he sees things even remotely. Instead his POV lapses off into brief internal narration bits about how he would be awfully easy to just drag them off into a side-room and drain them dry in a completely non-sexual and way that indicates he sees it almost completely like he explains it to Harry at the end of Turn Coat; everyone he sees is just more "food", and he has to catch himself to stop reflexively thinking like that.

>>48016524
>There is space, and it's hinted at throughout the books. Harry is dealing with the seelie and unseelie, and a few other things, pretty exclusively. That's cool and all, but then there's all these other little things that come up. Like the Fomorians, they're a big deal even in Chicago, but Harry does nothing with them. Or the Loa – Harry summons one once, in one of the early books, and that's their full relevance to his story. But now we know, the Loa are a thing in the Dresden Files. Even the things Harry does deal with a lot, like vampires and fairies: There's the asiatic vampire courts, which aren't explored, and when Harry jumps blind into the fey realm, he lands in the court of the goblin king, a fey court on par with the seelie and unseelie, and yet totally unrelated to them or their feud.

We also know characters like Carlos and Elaine are having lots of off-screen action.
In fact, when it comes to the Vampire War in general we basically hear it described every time it comes up as;
>"This insane battle thing happened Harry and you weren't even there. The entire world DOESN'T revolve around you, you know."

>>48016847
Ignore him and report him.
The same guy has posted like four or five times and doesn't read the books, he just dislikes them. He doesn't even read the thread, he just comes on here to shitpost and then leaves.

>>48017207
Eldest Gruff is one of the few powerful supernatural beings who is bro-tier.
>"Wouldst thou like sprinkles on thine doughnut?"

>>48017294
It's not a GOOD thing that the Erlking likes him though.
Kind of the opposite since that means the Erlking basically thinks Harry would be fun to hunt and kill.

>>48017407
>I'm saying it's established that Ramerez is actively not trying.
>It's known she's in Chicago, and he never even comes to the midwest. That's negative effort.

Helps that he kinda has a crush on her.
Though Harry says in the game book that despite being all cocky, Molly would probably chew up and spit out Carlos romantically, especially since we know Carlos is a virgin.

Heh.

>>48019207
Supposedly Jim said at a recent book signing that they both are, still.

>>48016549
Even before that order was rescinded she had Lea watching her for Harry. No Warden is going to tangle with Lea lightly, she's basically second or third to Mab in Winter.

>>48019207
Poor Carlos. He had an entire book of interaction with Harry talking up his conquests like a Chad Thundercock, and then Lara Raith almost squees at the thought that Harry brought her a virgin as a present.

>>47997769
My group plays fate a lot and we use the skills and shit from the dresden files book as a jumping off point for modern games. at its core, its easy to mod so it's good for the way we played. one of the guys in our group actuall ran a DF game cause a few of them like the books. it was ok.

>>48019783
That's my second favorite Lara interaction in the series.

Number one is when Harry asks for some mouthwash and Lara tells him to get the fuck out of her house.

She'll be missed after Harry incinerates her.

>>48019054
you're right that Thomas doesn't really notice women he does on the other hand notice womAn.
Because Justine is so much as walks into the rooom...

>>48020016
Lara Raith is one of the best frenemies that Harry has in the entire series, because you KNOW one day they are going to have to try and kill one another.
Marcone's the other one, but honestly he's actually actively helped Dresden more then he's actively fighting him and seems to have concluded that the best way to make Harry go away is to treat him as politely as possible and tell him everything he wants to know.

His Even Hand narration is hilarious. Also tells you a lot more about Hendricks then we see from Harry's POV.
>"The sorcerer from the Formor announced his presence in a way that most of these supernatural types do; by obliterating the door in an explosion of power from what I can only assume to be some kind of spell."
>"For God's sake. At least the vampires would be polite enough to make an appointment first."

>>48020230
>seems to have concluded that the best way to make Harry go away is to treat him as politely as possible and tell him everything he wants to know.
Not any more I'm afraid.

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>>48019783
>>48020016
Lara's actually the strongest indication for my group's personal belief that the WCV's actually AREN'T universally super attractive but instead are constantly emitting a low-key "fuck me" aura that means you FIND them sexually attractive when you normally wouldn't.
Harry routinely finds her incredibly hot, but also frequently says he can't actually DESCRIBE her hotness and how it sort of fades from his memory when she's not standing right there in front of him, almost like it has nothing to do with physical features.

The other WCV's that feed on other emotions, even ones related to the Raiths (like Madrigal) are way less sexually attractive in description from Harry, and in the soulgaze with Thomas when he's separated from his Hunger in his head he looks pretty much like a slightly shorter version of Harry with darker hair and darker eyes.

>>48020294
Given that Butcher admitted that a heavy inspiration for Marcone's personality and role is David Xanatos, I somehow doubt he and Harry are ever actually going to get around to killing each other.

Harry always says one day Marcone's will be the greater of two evils and Harry will finally get around to him, but in NO WAY had he anticipated the serial escalation of bad guys he's provoked/created since the first novel.

>>48015161
So, effectively, you're suggesting it's a Cole MacGrath/Kessler situation?

>>48020676
Possibly.
I'm not entirely convinced that Cowl is working in Harry's best interests and while he hasn't actively tried to kill Harry except that one time he certainly has put him in situations where if Cowl won Harry's death would pretty much be 100% guaranteed. It's possible that the changes Cowl has undergone (such as becoming an Outsider of sorts, which Lash hints Harry could sort of have done since he beat He Who Walks Behind) has basically made him "Not Harry" in the terms of physical universe so killing Harry outright wouldn't affect his timeline at all as he is "outside" regular time. He doesn't seem to care one way or another if Harry actually dies, and in fact goes out of his way to avoid directly confronting him in Dead Beat when he begins smacking Harry around with magic. Harry even comments that in that fight he didn't even seem to be particularly trying that hard.
Basically I think we're seeing an alternate future of Harry in Cowl and our version of Harry won't become him anymore because of Cowl's fucking around with the original timeline. Our Harry MIGHT become Cowl if he makes the wrong choice, but it's not guaranteed. Choice and the consequences of it are an important recurring theme in the series; when you fully become a monster you loose the benefit of choice and become a slave to your nature, and though outside forces like a Denarian or the Mantle of Winter or your Hunger can make it much harder to make the choices that make you a decent person, it ultimately is STILL your choice to be a horrible bastard or not. Harry, despite repeatedly having been pushed to the edge and back is constantly CHOOSING to be a good person even when it would be easier not to. The whole "The Warrior" short story is basically about this sort of thing.

>>48020838
>*except in Dead Beat
I meant.

Soooooo....
Who's going to run a game?
I would but I'm shit. Still learning.

>>48020883
I would but holy shit I hate Skype and all forms of internet roleplaying BS.
Also my internet connection blows and I live on the opposite side of America from most people and so would probably struggle to arrange a decent time that nicely synchs up with work.

>>48020916
Also, I doubt there'd be more the none or two players.

>>48020333
while I like that, he does also describe each individual part of her as being hot.
It's just that combined they somehow go over and above what those individual hot bits should be.

So even in pictures or without power, she still looks damn good. But in person she amps it up.

She also, unlike Madrigal and certainly Madeline, has actual seductive skills. She doesn't need her power, or even really her looks, to make you interested. She just also has those on top.

>>48019783
>believing white court lies

>>48020396
yeah, the competition for the top evil stop keeps getting steeper, and Marcone isn't doing much to up his game in that department.
He's gained more power, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything more evil with that power.

Unless you count hiring immortal vikings, but I don't.

>>48021087
I don't think she's ugly or even plain or anything, I just think a lot lot of what you see when you look at her is her powers subtly acting on your perceptions.

>>48021105
It helps that Marcone's goals seem relatively mundane and boring by comparison to everything, the kind of goals that every important and intelligent ambitious guy ever has had.
And hiring Monoc Securities isn't bad. Hell, Butcher said that Vadderung is on the up and up even.
BTW, another reason I think Cowl is Dark Future Harry is that Cowl's manipulation a seem specifically aimed at attacking Harry's personal enemies, or at least Harry's long-term enemies. Training Sells and arming the FBI Hexenwolves is an attack on Marcone, the attempt at the Darkhallow is an attack on the White Council, and his attack in the Raith Deeps is an attack on the White Court and Lara Raith. These are problems Harry keeps "putting off" but repeatedly are foreshadowed to be ones he WILL need to eventually deal with at some point in time. Perhaps Cowl basically is just a version of Harry that would rather kill the long-term threats even if they haven't done anything yet.

>>48021176
except most of those aren't really long term threats to Our Harry. They are things he doesn't like, but as you just pointed out Marcone isn't actually one of Harry's major problems. White Council, sans the actively corrupted bits, are arrogant and pretensious, and the White Court is a mix of predatory and parasitic, but neither are actively seeking world ending, which is starting to become Harry's standard for major threats.
So Cowl is basically fucking over Harry even if he's trying to help him removing 'threats' because he's making/helping worse threats.

>>48021116
honestly, after a point the physical qualities stop adding to hotness, it's attitude, poise, behavior, etc etc. And Laura is pulling those off too.
Probably helping those bit with her power, but subtly.
Harry has learned to notice when Laura is using her power, because on face value is just seems like an attractive woman behaving in a very alluring fashion.
Madeline is described as being really blatant, she's got it on high all the time, to try and make up for the fact that she's a bitch with a bod and nothing more.

>>48020230
I like Marcone for two things, his determination to ruthlessly murder anybody who hurts a hair on a child's head on his turf, and how he has given orders that all his establishments are to treat Harry like a sultan to keep him off-balance and less likely to blow the place up. Also installing thin, cheap doors at all dramatic entry points to save on costs.

>>48021349
Madeline's death gave me the fucking willies. Lara is creepy as fuck sometimes.
>Lara: "I've wanted to do this since we were kids....."

>>48021358
Harry sums him up in one sentence;
>"Gentleman Jim Marcone has balls that drag on the ground behind him when he walks."

>>48021369
how about when Justine, sweat kind Justine, tortures Madeline by kissing her.

>>48021527
That didn't bother me as much since Maddie was ASKING for that shit.
But the disturbing sexual connotations of a naked (albiet skinless) Lara draining the life from Madeline (explicitly a sexual experience for them) while kissing her throat and slowly messily disemboweling her with one hand just creeped me the fuck out, especially with the uh..insinuations of Lara's one-liner before she did it.

She basically murderfucked the life out of her sister.

>>48018018
It'll probably be revealed in a few books that she was in Mirror Mirror's universe, helpng Not!Harry

>>48021176
Assuming you're the guy who brought up the Cowl = Harry theory, What do you think Mirrow Mirrow will be? Is that where "Cowl" begins, or is it another version of Harry?

Turns out that every single person in the DF universe is Harry having moved backwards and forwards through time.

>>48021932
I think Harry in that story will observe/travel to the alternate timeline where Cowl began and basically see the events that led Cowl to becoming who he is now but won't put two and two together until later, perhaps another book or so. Harry, after seeing that timeline, will have observed and therefore have seen the mistakes he made in one parallel reality and thus in his own will know not to make the same choices. I think that AlternaHarry will be helpful to him (though they won't get along at first) and that Cowl will be the villain as Butcher said it will involve more then one alternate version of Harry.
We also know AlternaHarry that his timeline diverges at some point in Grave Peril where he makes a different choice, though which choice is still unknown. My guess it has something to do with Susan, but who knows? A LOT of shit went down in that book after all.

>>48021932
>Jim Butcher is actually Harry, too

BRAVO, NOLAN

>>48022197
We don't use the N-word here, this isn't /co/.

>>48022250
That's more /tv/, m8

Not that it's any better

>>48021828
>She basically murderfucked the life out of her sister.
While making her sister enjoy EVERY SECOND of it.

>>48022785
Yeah, like I said; it's definitely one of the more disturbing kills in the series.

>>48011765
Maybe I'm a little slow, but what are Red Court vampires a reference to?

>>48021828
She was asking for the murderfuck too. And had been asking for a long time.

>>48008965
Name not the worst board on 4chan, thou fiend!