Battletech Elemental Vs 40K Space Marine...Who wins?

>>47750763
Elementals are pretty much trash. They're like IG shock troops in a universe where the baseline combat unit is a Warhound Titan.

the people who don't take part in the discussion

>>47751383
>trash
>the best genetic engineering
>arm mounted equivalent of a lascannon
>claws that tear about a titan
>harjel

isn't it past your bedtime kid?

>>47751421
Nah, it's a Multilaser.

Elemental are akin to Golden Age of Technology stuff. They are more powerful.

40K does hame some stuff that can meaningfully engage with Battletech-grade power levels, but it is all in space, or as super-rare mythic weaponry.

Strange question, really.

>>47751466
I know it's a strange question, but I was arguing with a friend about it, and he was thoroughly sucking Grey Knight cock, saying that they're the single most superior thing ever, and I wanted a second opinion.

>>47751615
Well with grey knights you get into psykers and space magic stuff that can really throw off the scales.

These "hoo wood win huehuehue" things are always pointless, though.

>>47751615
IT comes down to how the tech and materials translate relative to each other. The meat is going to be pretty similar.

At a larger level, the BT universe wins at logistics, but the 40k universe can kill whole worlds if they don't feel like repopulating them for a thousand years. 40k ships also have longer legs.

>>47751463
>Multilaser equivalent
>2x 1 shot krak missles
>Jump packs
Muhreens are outgunned and outmaneuvered

>>47750763
>28mm elemental

HOW DO I GET IT

>>47754964
Ironwind metals sells them still. The model shows its age, but it still rocks.

>>47751615
No idea about their space magicks, but how fast does Terminator armour even move?

>>47750763
Elemental are nowhere near close to the level of bio engineering of the space marines

>>47750763
You want to proxy that as a tau battlesuit and we'll find out?

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>>47750763
In a pure shooting contest with their standard weapons, an Elemental should win, although a bolter should be capable of killing it with sustained fire, the Elemental is in turn armed with a bunch of rockets and a laser cannon which should certainly fuck up power armor faster.

However, if the Space Marine is given access to the Chapter armory, he one-shots the Elemental with little difficulty. Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, Grav Guns, Plasma Cannons, Multi-Meltas, Grav Cannons, Lascannons, and Heavy Bolters should kill an Elemetnal either instantly, or near-instantly in case of the H Bolter with sustained fire.

Also there's other bolts as well. While I doubt a normal load could crack Elemental armor with speed (it won't penetrate power armor that fast either), Vengeance Rounds and Kraken Rounds will murder an Elemental fast.

>>47754253
They aren't outmanuevered. Space Marines can run at speeds of fifty miles per hour and have millisecond-microsecond reaction speeds. The Elemental Jump Pack won't be leaving the Space Marine in the dust/picking him off easily while he slowly trods around like a dumbass, the jump pack's main use is just re-positioning.

>>47755455
Very. They are deceptively bulky and "slow" in appearance like marines. Slower than space marines, but not by much, and in exchange basically laugh off things like bolters.

>>47756089
Pretty much this. A Crisis suit is about equivalent to an Elemental.

>>47751615
As you can see:
>>47758075
>>47758136
>>47751383
40k has the dumbest fluff and even dumber fans. You cannot win against 40k fluff because the writers themselves gargle space marine cock. Whenever they come across something cool in another universe, they find a way to one-up it.

>>47758075

I'm not so sure there. Bolters and heavy bolters are pretty god damn useless against any vehicle and Elementals laugh off weapons that can't tear a hole in a tank.

Exact comparisons are hard due to the systems for armour being completely incompatible. 40k using penetration while battletech uses ablative armour.

>>47758241

Well, a Crisis suit with a non-shit in melee pilot.

Clanners are well above standard human and Elementals are kinda famous for clawing through the cockpits of mechs.

I'd put a Heavy Bolter at 'Light Machine Gun' levels in Battletech. Mostly because said machine guns are in mech-scale (Infantry machine guns are something entirely different and much less impressive). Heavy Bolters are dangerous but not really 'low entire platoons in just a few passes' like a full Machine Gun. They evaporate squads, not platoons.

>>47758429
No. Bolters can be effective against light vehicles, and special ammunition can royally fuck shit up. They after all have around a megajoule or more of explosive force, and several hundred kilojoulse worth of kinetic energy from pure impact. If a Space Marine opens up against something like a Chimera with a heavy bolter, it's going to have a real bad day.

Of course if by vehicles you mean 'Leman Russ and larger", then yeah, bolters are gonna do squat unless it's really rare melta or plasma bolts. Of course Leman Russes are absurdly durable and can survive triple digit megajoule energy guns.

>>47758535
What caliber are mech machine guns? 40-50mm?

So, we've got a Crisis suit with Stimulant Injectors, Advanced Targeting System, Target Lock, and Vectored Retro-Thrusters for 50 points. We'll add a Multilaser, Chainfist, and two Hunter-Killer Missiles for an additional 60 points. I'd give it pretty damn good odds against any single Space Marine model up to its points value (GK ML3 Libby would probably give it a run for its money), but it would get rekt by any 100 point Space Marine squad.

>>47758136
>They aren't outmanuevered.

Eh, translated into BT per the rules, you'd have something that approximates Manei-troopers in PALs while translating Elementals into 40K gets you jump-pack Dreadnought.

The differences in capabilities on the table are silly.

>>47758741
>What caliber are mech machine guns? 40-50mm?
AC/5 is ~20-50mm. Presumably machine guns are 7-15mm.

>>47758741

>If a Space Marine opens up against something like a Chimera with a heavy bolter, it's going to have a real bad day.

Even against it's weakest armour, he's looking at glances at most with a bolter. A heavy bolter can barely pen and only on the weakest armour. Against it's front armour, a heavy bolter might as well be angry words for all it does.

>What caliber are mech machine guns? 40-50mm?

Unstated. There is way too many versions. Battletech damage isn't just actual size but also ROF with many guns. So two Machine guns can do the same damage with different calibers. Anything with actual multiple shots on the TT has a rate of fire of 'Stupid fast' or bigger.

>>47758741

>They after all have around a megajoule or more of explosive force, and several hundred kilojoulse worth of kinetic energy from pure impact. If a Space Marine opens up against something like a Chimera with a heavy bolter, it's going to have a real bad day.

I don't think bringing actual force values into it is likely to go well for the 40k side. The setting is bloody inconsistent. I mean...the stupid-ass Land Raider image is likely floating about somewhere that says a land raider is ungodly fragile.

>>47758862
Yeah and we also have feats of Land Raiders laughing off weapons that would gut an Abrams, and the latest Forge World re-issue of that book retconned those silly statistics.

>>47758830
>Even against it's weakest armour, he's looking at glances at most with a bolter. A heavy bolter can barely pen and only on the weakest armour. Against it's front armour, a heavy bolter might as well be angry words for all it does.
Not talking about the game mechanics- those are fucking retarded for both sides. Especially 40k. Even the Fluff isn't so retarded as to have naked humans survive shots from a .50 cal HMG.

>Unstated. There is way too many versions. Battletech damage isn't just actual size but also ROF with many guns. So two Machine guns can do the same damage with different calibers. Anything with actual multiple shots on the TT has a rate of fire of 'Stupid fast' or bigger.
Can't you just scale off the size of the model's gun barrels, or are they even visible?

>>47758981

When has a space marine killed a tank with a bolter in fluff?

>Can't you just scale off the size of the model's gun barrels, or are they even visible?

That's not really going to give you an accurate result with how small the models are.

>>47758981

In fluff, Space Marines have been punched out by an unaugmented human woman. 40k fluff is all over the damn place.

>>47758981
>Can't you just scale off the size of the model's gun barrels, or are they even visible?

Wouldn't make much sense, really. BT gun rules are kind of surreal and actually inverse to some of the most basic facts of IRL gunnery.

If it were more realistic, everyone and their mums'd hose each other with indirect fire from large-bore autocannons, for one things.

>>47758981

So you get to use the 'Realistic Battletech' rules?

Because those rules are really in the elemental's favor. It puts the range on most of his guns in 'A football field'. As in, if you put down hexes over an entire football field you might finally get to use range mods on the guns.

>>47759060
>When has a space marine killed a tank with a bolter in fluff?
I remember a book where a heavy bolter blasted apart an IFV like a Chimera. Bolts blew a hole along the riveting and gutted the crew.

>In fluff, Space Marines have been punched out by an unaugmented human woman. 40k fluff is all over the damn place.
When did THAT happen?

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1 vs. 1 or small scale engagment in an open field: Elemental.
It's made to take down mechs, a MEQ isn't gonna be an issue.
The comparison with a Crisis exoarmor or roids was pretty good.

>>47759078
We got action movies where one brave GI mows down the whole soviet union too; it isn't inconsistency as much as plot armor and firepower.
GW can't into numbers, though, as the Land Raider RHA equivalent example shows.

>>47750763
There is no objective way to compare the two. Perhaps the Elemental's laser could blow the Marine into tiny chunks. Perhaps the Marine could tear the Elemental in half with his bare hands.

We have no way of determining this. And we never will.

>>47759512
Again, that depends entirely on armament. A marine with a plasma gun or grav gun will kill an Elemental with one shot.

>>47759272
Lol, riveting on an armored vehicle. Not even wwii tech level.
>>47760740
That's hyperbole of the worst sort. As >>47758750 & >>47758782 said, the Elemental is a strait-up superior individual combatant to almost any SM. But would probably run into trouble in a 'realistic' force-on-force.
As I said earlier: arguing against 40k fluff is like arguing against an 8 year old. They will always one-up you with some dumb bullshit.

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>>47759885
I based all damage on probablilities of killing a vanilla human, IE, a guardsman, less the armor saves. I built up estimations based on probabilities of the die rolls to make fixed damage values so that Epic 40K could be compatable with Battletech. Long story short, Space marines put out about the same damage as a small laser, with bonuses against conventional infantry thanks to the firing rate, but fail to outdo elementals because of having about half the armor protection and are only jump capable when they're the assault marines with chainswords and such. The closer match for damage and armor were Terminators, which I think slightly outdid elementals for armor. You've got to consider that Marines are made for fighting flesh and blood. Elementals are made for swarming tanks and mechs, ripping them open, and blowing them apart.

As for the project... Eh... stillborn. As I was doing it I realised I don't think I could ever program these into megamek, so there was really no point but to silence the argument and satisfy my own curiousity. I did check the stats for Space Marines, but never made a PDF since I started on Guard, first.

>>47761082
>I don't like it so it's not canon!

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>>47761082
>arguing against 40k fluff is like arguing against an 8 year old. They will always one-up you with some dumb bullshit.

Yep. It seems like in 40K lore, stuff gets so embellished that you could fart and take out an entire city block.

Just use the game stats and probability, find a benchmark (Like killing a vanilla human soldier, for example) and work up from there.

I thought he consensus always came down to:

>Augmented; Elemental
>Unaugmented; Space Marine

Here's another one. Sentinel vs. Flea

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>>47758862
This one? It always makes me laugh, though the age of it invoke the rage of the 40kid is long past.

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>>47761259
Too fucking bad that isn't canon. The Black Library books however, are. If you've got a problem then write a letter to GW. I'm sure they'll be deeply interested in your complaints.

>>47761338

Which Model Flea?

>>47761413

Lord I remember that. The desperate arguments of "But but SPESS STEEL!" were always hilarious.

>>47761764

I'm going to assume a FLE-17. So you've got... two small lasers, two medium pulse lasers, and a flamer on a platform that can run 11kph.

>>47761810

119 KPH

>>47761259

I've actually done this using the Mechwarrior RPG and Dark Heresy books for comparisons rather than massively inconsistent fluff of either side.

The battletech universe actually does come out noticeably ahead. It's not a once sided curb stomp, but it's not good for the 40k side.

>>47761784
Later books put the 'conventional steel' as referring to plasteel, then they left it vague in more recent ones.
1v1 Astartes vs. Elemental can go either way depending on a number of things.
If it's a standard Tac Marine? Of course it's going to go to the Elemental. If it's an Assault Marine with a power weapon? That's going to alter the playing field. Just saying one can beat the other all the time, every time, is retarded.

>>47761099
I like this. Kinda fits with my own project, an Only War campaign, that I'm porting a few Battletech things into FFg's 40k rpg line.

>>47759272

>When did THAT happen?

Daemonfuge. A Sister of battle kicks the ass of Black Templars. They have bolters, she's unarmed.

>>47750763
If i remember right isn't the elemental more just a cool space suit for tearing apart mechs then power armor?

here's a better question; which one costs more to field and replace/maintain. And for this math we should exclude marines being "upgraded" too Dreads

>>47751421
>>47751466
>>47754253
>>47758429
>>47758535
>>47758830
Battletech machine guns are approximately the same as modern .50 caliber machine guns, they can be used indipendant of vehicles as mounted, crew-served weapons like a modern .50 is. A BT machine gun causes 2 damage, an Elemental can take 3 before dying. 2 on the armor, 1 or the person inside. This means a salvo from a modern .50 will shred elemental battle armor. It takes something much more powerful to penetrate Astartes armor. I would argue that while BT weapons are good in BT, that does not mean they can hang in 40K. Just because two weapons are called lasers and are close to the same physical size, does not mean they are equally powerful. I'd put BT small lasers as closer to hellguns than any heavy weapon.

>>47758782
More like Scout Marines with hellguns, frag missiles and jump packs.

>>47765170

>A BT machine gun causes 2 damage, an Elemental can take 3 before dying. 2 on the armor, 1 or the person inside. This means a salvo from a modern .50 will shred elemental battle armor.

That's...not remotely accurate. Battletech damage values are for an entire salvo, not a single shot. Machine guns don't fire a single shot.

Also: Where are you getting that approximation?

>>47765170
>3
Try 6
Elementals have 10 armor, bro.

>>47765170

Actually, infantry machine guns have different stats to mech machine guns.

If you try to wail on an elemental with an infantry machine gun it's going to take forever to get through. There is reasons they are basically invincible in the RPG.

>>47765337
Did I imply a single shot? A .50 salvo still doesn't do shit to a Space Marine.

>>47765354
Eh, it's been a while. 5 salvos, still not shit to an Astartes.

>>47765394
Meh, details. A conventional firearm that has the oomph to quickly damage Marine armor would have to be something like an autocannon, not a machine gun.

>>47765395
I'm sorry, but that means that an elemental can take a literal minute of fullbore machine gun fire.
It also means that it can take a PPC blast to the face and still operate. which would demolish a Space Marine.

>>47765429
But the hit WILL fuck up the armor, with how Astartes armor works there's only a 1 in 3 chance he'd be hurt at all. He can still take down the elemental before he dies, a bolter is closer to a BT light autocannon than anything else.

>>47765395

>Did I imply a single shot? A .50 salvo still doesn't do shit to a Space Marine.

You mean the space marine that has a 1/6 chance of being killed by a Heavy Stubber (Assuming that a modern heavy machine gun). If you use game rules for the Elemental, you should also use them for the Marine.

And again, a modern .50 machine gun is NOT a TT Machine gun. Normal infantry machine guns do less than a single point of damage on the TT.

>>47765464

You mean the bolter that can't even touch the front armour of every single walker in the game?

>>47765464

And how does the Marine deal with getting hit by a Lascannon? As an Elemental is still standing after being hit by a PPC.

>>47765505
By what stretch of the imagination is it a lascannon?

>>47765489
Walkers with 40K armor, not basic steel BT armor.

>>47765472
When did I say infantry machine gun? I mean a support machine gun. Ever see the art for it? That's a Ma Deuce.

>>47765563

Battletech doesn't use basic steel. I mean, your armour type is a major factor in mech desighs.

>>47765563
>some BAR 3 shitsteel
>Battletech armor
You're funny

>>47765563
Battletech armour isn't basic steel though, it's a weird super-tech composite of all sorts of things in ablative layers.

>>47765608
So, you're assuming the BT side gets better than base model armor, but the 40K side is assumed to have normal Astartes armor? Not Terminator, not Master Crafted? Double standard, son. If you assume better than basic model for one side, you have to for the other.

>>47765543
You're probably right.
The lascannon is more like a medium or large laser.

>>47765582

A support machine gun is not a modern support machine guns. There are rules for squads having those sorts of machine guns. They do less than a single point of damage. Vehicle/Mech machine guns are a serious step above that.

>>47765635

Battletech armour isn't basic steel even at it's most basic. Heck, INDUSTRIAL armour isn't basic steel.

>>47765659
You're right, I was mistaken. BT armor is ablative in nature, meaning bolter rounds, designed to penetrate then explode from within, would rip through it even faster, as it would mean removing more armor per shot, from the impact, the explosion against the inner layers, and said explosion blasting pieces of armor off. Again, advantage Marine.

>>47750763
>mech-scale weapons and armor strapped to a frame that moves faster than infantry
>good infantry
Oh gee I wonder

>>47765739

And the fact that marines are killed by weapons that do less than a single point of damage to elementals?

>>47765890
Interesting theory, let's see you prove it.

>>47765922
Marines are killed easily by light and medium lasers. And heavy machine guns. And light missiles. And grenades. For all the claims that they're elite troops, they're really not much more than chaff.

>>47766006
Light and medium lasers for 40K, you'd have to prove BT weapons to be their equal. Also, your bait at the end there is weak. Try harder.

>>47750763

If those are yours, thin your paints.

>>47766006
Or not killed, because marines have six hearts and never bleed out and enter a stasis trance until reactivated in the healing lodge, but effectively removed from the field of combat. Which is what matters.

>>47766070
Hey fluff-fag. Don't help me.

>>47766048
Well, we know how shit 40k tanks are compared to modern tanks.
And we know how much better battletech's everything is to modern stuff.

So it's pretty easy to go from there.

>>47766048

You have to prove that 40k lasers are stronger. It's pretty clear that marines are killed by 'guys with no close combat weapons' much more often than is saying good things about them.

A marine loses to a squad of guardsman, an elemental has almost no worry engaging an entire platoon of infantry.

>>47766136
So, which standard are you using then? The fluff, the rules, or shit written by people who don't know how to google first? You have to pick one.

>>47766137
Ah, but I don't. YOU are claiming the weapons are equal, YOU have to prove that before I have to do a thing.

>>47766153
I'll go with
>the fluff as written by the idiots at GW

>>47766219
And that means one Marine can handle entire squads of assault mechs, because that's the fluff they write.

>>47766168

>Ah, but I don't. YOU have to prove that before I have to do a thing.

>>47765170

>I'd put BT small lasers as closer to hellguns than any heavy weapon

The earlier claim still hasn't been proven in that case. Start with your claim.

>>47765582
>Ma Deuce
Well, 40K calls that a heavy stubber.

>>47766168
Nah, nigga. You started this bitchfit claiming they are so high above, so let's see some fucking proof on the table.

>>47766241
They also write squads of marines being chumped by numerically inferior tau suits.

>>47766284
>>47766299
I base that on how well those lasers perform against inferior armor. Heavy lasers in 40K ignore armor, with the largest making the heaviest tank armor weaker just by aiming at it. No BT weapons negate armor, or make it count for less. Advantage, 40K.

>>47766343

Alternatively: 40k vehicles can't take serious hits without a chance of just shitting and dying. Mechs can be sure to keep going after several hits.

>>47766421
They're probably running around with like BAR 5 armor, seeing as they get penned by fucking anything.

>>47766421
Which the numbers given by this
>>47761413
supports.

>>47766421
True, and mecha vs tanks/titans would be an interesting debate, but this is elementals and marines. Which means the AP stat on 40K weapons puts them over the top, as BT has no equivalent. 40K lasers are better at penetrating armor, making them superior weapons to their BT equivalents, and Astartes can survive hits from lascannons that would ignore Clan armor completely.

>>47766475
> 40K lasers are better at penetrating armor
They have difficulty penetrating WW2 and cold war era tank armor, which is in BT rules as a comparatively shitty BAR next to the modern stuff that an elemental uses. Lascannons have only a 50/50 chance of penetrating a Falcon grav tank's armor, and those things have been killed by people throwing stones at them. Lascannons struggle against things that are weak by BT standards, but contrary to what you claim a lascannon hit will still kill a space marine.

>>47766475

>Astartes can survive hits from lascannons that would ignore Clan armor completely.

Back that up.

That and on the TT Elementals would almost certainly be Walkers line Sentinels and Dreadnaughts. They are not the thin power armour of marines or SOB. They are full fledged bulky massive stuff.

>>47766576
Again, not talking about vehicle rules, as neither Marines nor Elementals are vehicles.

>>47766605
With a lucky (or unlucky) toughness roll, a Marine can ignore a hit from a lascannon that ignores his armor completely. Also, not sure if you're the same guy, but that bait is still weak. Try HARDER.

>>47766634

>With a lucky (or unlucky) toughness roll, a Marine can ignore a hit from a lascannon that ignores his armor completely.

So can a guardsman. Or a naked tau.

>>47766475
> Which means the AP stat on 40K weapons puts them over the top, as BT has no equivalent.

Armor penetration is in Battletech. It's just on the armor end of things. Armor has a BAR, barrier armor rating, that measures how much concentrated damage the armor can block. Damage that exceeds it penetrates the armor. For example, BAR 5 armor can be penetrated by a large laser (8 damage). BAR 10 armor cannot.

A lascannon does not automatically penetrate armor that is weaker than modern armor. In Battletech, modern armor is around BAR 5. Elementals use significantly better armor than that, meaning that a lascannon will struggle to penetrate their armor.

>>47766654
And...so what? That still doesn't give BT weapons an AP stat.

>>47766682

It does however mean that the Elemental has at LEAST the same chance to just ignore the lascannon as the Marine. As the marine is no tougher vs lascannons than a naked human.

Also: See >>47766677

Battletech does have rules for armour penetration. Armour on elementals and tanks is just too good at negating it for it to affect them.

>>47766677
Having armor that's better at resisting damage doesn't magically give weapons a stat that doesn't exist in the game.

>>47766682
>>47766475
> 40k wins because BT doesn't use the same stat system
And by that logic, 40k weapons have range stats measured in inches, meaning they'll never hit anything.

>>47766707
Really? Since when do Elementals get Toughness rolls? Oh right, they don't. You can't give the BT side abilities that don't exist in their rules.

>>47766677
That's a quality of the armor, not the guns shooting it.

>>47766719
Really? Because I'm pretty sure a BT hex is about an inch across.

>>47766728
> You can't give the BT side abilities that don't exist in their rules.
Applying that same logic
> you can't give the 40k side abilities that don't exist in their rules
So a lascannon only has a range of several feet, and a marine can only move about a foot in the time it takes for an elemental to jump 90 meters.

>>47766728

Then they also don't have armour rolls for you to ignore.

A lascannon deals 1 if it gets through. So you are going to be shooting for a good while there. And 9 isn't twice N/A so it won't instant death.

>>47766756
BT rules says they're 30 meters across, so if we're going strictly by what the rules say like >>47766728 wants, they're 30 meters.

>>47766781
Fair enough. Also irrelevant however.

>>47766801

How? It means the lascannon wouldn't go even a single hex range-wise.

>>47766774
And an elemental can take 1 damage before dying, what's the problem? It's not like a lascannon has to worry about getting through the armor, it would do that by default. The point is, despite you trying to confuse the issue, that 1 hit from a lascannon kills an elemental, no questions asked. But there is a chance the marine will survive unharmed. That's why Astartes>Elementals.

>>47766833

>And an elemental can take 1 damage before dying, what's the problem? It's not like a lascannon has to worry about getting through the armor, it would do that by default.

Not it wouldn't. The AP only makes it ignore armour SAVES. No save, thus nothing to negate. You'll need to grind through all the damage it can take.

>>47766832
This isn't a battle between artillery.

>>47766801
No, it means that the elemental can easily remain out of lascannon range. If we persist with your ridiculously stupid "just what it says in the rules" approach, pretty much the only thing it has to worry about is that one necron weapon with infinite range.

>>47766859
The armor save is the protective quality of the armor. In BT that's the armor's ability to absorb damage. So against a weapon with AP, that absorption does not exist.

>>47766873

The elemental can shoot from a distance that a marine would take dozens or hundreds of dozens of turns to cover.

>>47766883
Why do you think the Marine is firing a lascannon? How did your tiny mind get so stuck on that? The entire point was to prove 40K weapons are more powerful, and they are, so you can't assume an Elemental's laser is equal to a multilaser or lascannon.

>>47766917
Shoot and accomplish nothing, since he's firing a hellgun at best.

>>47766873
If we keep up this stupid approach a lascannon has, what, a six foot range? That's just under 2 meters. The elemental can just sit at 30 meters and he's fine. He can't be hit, and all his weapons are well within range of his target.

>>47766903

Ah, ah. You can't go making up rules if we are doing it this way.

If an elemental doesn't get the 1/6 success toughness save that every single human gets in 40k, the marine can't suddenly start ignoring things his rules don't say he ignores.

>>47766903
They would probably have invul saves against 40k because 40k is arguably low tech as fuck.

Like sure they have lasers and shit but they're mostly just that, shit.
I mean, we have 40k tank stats and stuff from official sources and they are literally dog shit compared to tanks we had ten years ago. So it's like, why even argue.

>>47766932

Hellguns kill marines. Heck, that's the POINT of them.

>>47766932
Hellguns can kill space marines eventually.
Lasguns and stubguns can too. Eventually.

>>47766936
Making up what? Lascannons ignore infantry armor. The fast infantry armor is expressed differently in both games doesn't change that.

>>47766941
So, the BT side is just making shit up now? Invulnerable saves? Really? Desperation ill suits you.

>>47766947
>>47766948
Hellguns have a small chance of hurting a Marine, 90% of the time nothing happens.

>>47766984
And if the space marine never gets in range of the elemental, he has a 0% chance of killing an enemy that he can simply never hit. So the elemental still comes out ahead in this stupid as fuck comparison.

>>47766984

Actually, it's 2/3 of the chance nothing happens.

A 33% chance to kill the marine when you can fire dozens of times before he can shoot you is good odds.

>>47766972

>Making up what? Lascannons ignore infantry armor. The fast infantry armor is expressed differently in both games doesn't change that.

Ah but they are not infantry. That's an actual classification. They are battle armour.

>>47767040
>1/3 chance of killing them
ahahahaha, are you joking?
What kind of shit armor do spess mehreens even use.

>>47767059

T4 3+ Save vs Str 3 AP3

The save is ignored by a hellgun and it's 5+ to wound.

You said it was a hellgun, lie in the bed of 'hellguns kill 1/3 of the time'

>>47767059

Armour that hot shot lasguns completely ignore?

We could probably settle equivalency once and for all with the respective rpg lines. It'd take some mathing that I don't want to do right now, but I know Black Crusade has generic space marine stats and the BT rpg has generic Elemental stats, so we could compare weapons by their damage and time to kill. I'm sure both lines have generic civilian stats too, for further comparisons.

>>47767072
that sounds a lot like "dying to infantry-scale weapons" to me.

>>47750763
Battle Tech is pretty similar to 40k.

They forgot how to make lots of tech.

Battle Tech has slightly higher tech items that are more reliable.

However, most mech are no where near the same scale as 40k as even the heavy assault mechs are no larger than a Warhound Titan.

As for elementals, their power atmor is basically terminator armor with jump packs, a las cannon, assault cannon or heavy flamer and a power fist and a pair of hunter killer missiles.

As for tge clanner himself...they are bio engineered to be bigger, stronger, tougher and faster....but lack the black carapace, redundant internal organs and other comic book tier powers.

>>47767362
>Spess Mehreens are only 7 feet tall
>Elementals are 2.5 meters

>>47767362

>As for tge clanner himself...they are bio engineered to be bigger, stronger, tougher and faster....but lack the black carapace, redundant internal organs and other comic book tier powers.

Mind you, since 'A really good human' can hit 4s on the TT they are still likely in the same range for stats. Because seriously, all infantry being 3 or 4 is silly.

>>47765419
Well, 20mm bofors from WW2 kill Space Marines like crazy in game and in fluff.

Also a heavy stubber is said to be .50 BMG. Can a heavy stubber kill a space marine?

If so then a battle tech machine gun that is mounted on an elemental, light vehicle or mech has to be at least .50 BMG or at the smallest, 30-06. Also unlike 40k, battle tech has advanced propelllents and guns so they could be using high velocity ammo like .300 win mag which is typically a long range sniper round, in a machine gun.

>>47766932
It's a laser meant for killing armored vehicles and mechs, so yes a battle tech laser is the same as a 40k. 40k basically flat out admits a heavy stubber is an M2

The heavy stubber on an Imperial knight titan is the same roll as the fiur machine guns on a Mad Cat and are for shooting up infantry.

>>47767398
So for table top purposes an elemental is the same stat line as a space marine, in Novels spacemarine can use plot armor to save themselves from death.

So my point opinion stands and I've had this opinion fir 25 years and my game club accepts it as well thatif you wanted to rep a Battle Tech Elemental in Elemental Armor in 40k, it's a spacemarine terminator with jump packs x2 hunter killer missiles ( or x2 simple krak missiles if not playing Apoc) a power fist and the option to have a lascannon, Heavy Flamer or twin linked heavy stubber.

>>47767612
>and the option to have a lascannon, Heavy Flamer or twin linked heavy stubber.
What if they wanna bring an APGR?

>>47764173
That Sister of Battle was a superhuman monster who knew the True Name of Slaanesh itself and held power over the Chaos God.

>>47750763

>>47750763
In armor? Elemental wins. Even if the space marine is in terminator armor, the Elemental is still much more maneuverable, better armed, and equivalently armored.

Out of armor? Space marine has the advantage. Both are about equally strong, but the marine is much tougher.

In a book? Depends on who the author is.

On /tg/? Whoever's fans fap to their universe the hardest.

>>47769037
>Unaugmented
Yeah,because basically blackmailing one of the 4 strongest entities in the fluff isn't gonna give you mad gains