/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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>What Country are your games set in? How does your choice of nation affect them?

Sweden, so that the theme of monsters infiltrating and corrupting society is all the more intensified.

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We should talk about characters.

I was making a character to get the hang of Mage. Basically an Indiana Jones type chick, with the Shadowname of Dakota. While Acanthus is pretty fitting for characters in the adventurer mold, since they always seem to have things turn out just right for them as they bumble in over their heads, I figure I'd focus more on what they do than how she keeps from dying. So I'm thinking Moros is most fitting. Matter and Death with a bit of Prime should be good for raiding old Atlantean tombs.

>>47702151
Sounds like the game might be sweetish.

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>>47702210

You bet.

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Are ghouls ever worth it?

>>47702839
So long as you make sure they can be disposed of very, very easily, and that they know this, yes.

>>47702839
Who is this semen demon?

>>47702839
>Are the disposable bodybags who are addicted to your drug which you can sent them out to find the "materials" for worth it?
Very much so

>>47702865
http://avasdemon.com/

AMERICA ONLY

>>47703102
USA! USA! USA! USA!

>>47702084
Does anyone have the Ghouls and Revenant book to share?

What are some mustwatchs for the different WoD Games?

>>47702084
>What Country are your games set in?
Haven't run mine yet, but planning England.
I'd also want to try running some set in America.
I'd rather chew off my dick than set one here in Australia.
So fucking sick of hearing about Aboriginal culture.

>>47704588
Bbut Aboriginal culture is so original.

Do we really want these /pol/ and "le semen demon" discussions over talking about the actual game mechanics?

>>47704684
Not to an Australian.

>>47704736
Apparently. Either that or autistic breakdowns.

>>47703035
Hey thanks for sharing this web comic. I'm fucking loving it.

Rolled 9, 8, 10, 10, 6, 1, 8, 9 = 61 (8d10)

>>47704736
rolling Strength + Patriotism to kick you in the cunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOLVxDxuS2w
I'm building a wall...a fine wall...not so much to keep you out, but more to keep me in.

>>47702839
>Having Slaves who will work for free and are more capable then normal humans
how are they not worth it?

>>47704736
>not liking Semen Demons
fag

>>47705664
I think the best thing is the come in two flavors, Lesser Goetia of Lust, and Unchained with that particular Cover.

>>47705679
what?

>>47704736
>>47705600
you're done
5 succ at 7 diff roll to soak bitch

>>47705639
https://youtu.be/Jz8c17upEwM
Build that wall and build it strong 'cause we'll be there before too long

>>47705695
Semen demons can be either a Goetia of Lust or a Demon of the God-Machine that has a cover of a loose woman.

He forgets Spirits, Geister, and even Supernal denizens. There are many semen demons.

>>47705768
just wasnt aware of the pictures he was referring too. But yeah hot chicks are always relevant.

Is Suppress Life, at Death 2, *meant* to not have any kind of Withstand roll?

1. Be Death 3 Gnosis 1, like a starting character might be.
2. Use dedicated magical tool as reflexive yantra, whatevs
3. Use your free reach on Sensory Range and Instant. Use another reach (offset by tool) to go to Advanced duration.

You can now turn anyone off at will until you cast something else, as a starting character.

>>47705906
"the subject appears for all intents and purposes as though she is dead"
It's the practice of Veiling man, you only apppear dead, and by which I mean you can still walk, talk, fight and do everything normally, but physically you'll appear dead. Think zombie.

What's more, you're not actually dead, you just appear to be.
So you'll still need to eat, breath, drink and shit as per normal.

>>47705930
Give it a few days for the actual necrotic side effects to kick in on the mask, and you've got a kickass realistic Halloween costume.

>>47705930
To be fair, since it effects other people, it should have a Withstand.

Also, Suppress Other's Life was my waifu spell. Best combat power in 1e, if you had something like Aikido 3 to reflexively Grapple (since most Death spells required that)

So... what cool stuff CAN you do as a starting character with low Death or Prime?

Prime turns you into a lie detector which is nice, but otherwise it doesn't seem like there's a lot in there in terms of "cool stuff I can casually do" unless you need to change your resonance for whatever reason.

>>47705972
A lot of powers that affect other people don't have withstand.

Memory Hole being an exceptionally fun example.
Make people forget what they're talking about in the middle of a sentence. Everyone forgets things, so no Dissonance, no Withstand so easy as hell, and don't go wiggly fingers, so no sleeper induced Paradox.

>>47705991
>Death
Blind people, give Ghosts an Open condition, control Shadows, create practically anything out of ephemera (how about a bicylce made of dead people juice)?

>Prime
Fuck with other people's Magic, copy Grimoires permanently (might take a little Withstand, and a Rote), invisible writing, provide universal Withstand, hide objects/spells/anything from Magical detection, kick some ass socially with Words of Truth or just use it to give your friends Inspired.

Yeah, they're not as good straight off as Fate, Mind, Space, or Time, but I always personally thought of Fate as a supplementary Arcanum until you get to bullshit proficiency.

And Death, well, Death's not about using Death, it's about using a horrifying army of angry Ghosts who you have shackled to your will.

>>47706010
Mudra use has no effect on whether something is Paradoxical, and I'm more willing to assume they forgot than it doesn't have it. There's a reason they get fans to do final editing.

>>47705991
>>47706050
Shadow Sculpting was my favourite power in 1e, and now I can explicitly do what I liked to do: Make shit out of shadows to do other shit. I made a shadow staircase once.

>Shackled to your will
See, that's the kind of thing my Moros would'a taken you down over.

>>47706050
>but I always personally thought of Fate as a supplementary Arcanum
Why not bullshit around Exceptional Luck?

>>47706112
That was uh, supposed to say Prime as a supplementary Arcanum.

>>47706084
>Mudra use has no effect on whether something is Paradoxical
If a Sleeper sees you make some crazy ass gestures, and then someone's car explodes, that's Paradoxical.
If someone's sees you standing there, then a care explodes, it's not.

>>47706157
That's not how Paradox works. I don't even think that's how it worked in oWoD.

So did any of you actually submit anything to Monica? Care to tell us what it was?

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Is Exceptional Luck the best single spell for its dot level?

Looks like it's the best spell ever to have as a rote.

>>47706179
There are some situations where a Mundra would take an occurance from odd but not impossible to "obviously magical"

>>47706193
Without a single doubt, yes.
Yes it is.

>>47706193
Let's just go with "yes" and then never mention the spell again.

>>47706203
Some weirdo making gestures right before something happens doesn't make it "obviously magical" unless it was going to be obviously magical in the first place.

In fact, the Magical Traditions merit in 1e was all about making something "obviously magical" LESS paradoxical by being a weirdo making gestures.

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>>47706193
what is this

>>47706231
Clever ways to phrase your slut shaming
Or words of praise

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>>47706278
>tfw dirty talk/name calling is my fetish

>>47706300
Mine too, but I think if someone called me a semen demon I'd be giggling too hard to get off.

>>47706332
>if someone called me a semen demon
Are you gay or a grill?

>>47705906
>>47705930
>>47705940
I have a player in my group who keeps maintaining that RAW that spell kills people. The argument being "all symptoms of death" includes oxygen deprivation, which destroys the brain.

>>47706446
Literally every argument like this is solved by saying "Supernal laws overrule Fallen physics."

>>47706446
>>47706457
>Literally every argument like this is solved by saying "stop being a fucking dumbass".

>>47706457
>>47706480
I said "it doesn't, and I'm the ST".
Which was the wrong thing to say, apparently, because now he keeps whining about how stupid the authors were.

>>47706603
He does realize that this isn't the final version, right?

>>47706629
I assume so. Haven't dared tell him, just in case the wording isn't cleared up.

>>47703035
>reads through comic
>single panel pages
>chapters end with short animated videos
Reminds me of Homestuck, but with better art and about half of the cancer.
>checks forums
>it's been on hiatus for almost a year due to the author being busy with a Kickstarter
Definitely reminds me of Homestuck.

>>47706353
Yes.

>>47706703
Both?
Can you really be a Semen Demon in that case?

>>47706353
>Implying I'm one or the other
I'm a semen demon.

So, given how we've been talking about how Fate is one of the best Arcana, here's a question for you:

How many dots of Fate would you need to cast a curse on an African-American ghetto to cause a Black Lives Don't Matter riot after a cop guns down some random thug, and would it be a Act of Hubris against Wisdom? Looking at the descriptions of them in the section of the book on Wisdom, I guess it would count at Wisdom 8+, since it catches innocent bystanders in its effects, but what about lower levels? I mean, you're not forcing any particular person to commit any particular act; you're just arranging circumstances so that they're encouraged to act the way you want them to in general.

>>47706734
>Is it an Act of Hubris to cause a riot
/pol/, please go.

>>47706734
Depends how hard you're pushing it.

>>47706710
Yes.

>>47706762
Doesn't matter because you can use Fate to put Steadfast on yourself and auto-pass degeneration.

All hail 2huFate.

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>>47706734

Judging from the precedents the example spells set, Fate 4 (specifically, Strings of Fate) is required for a broad, overarching "name an event, and that event will happen" effect. Even then, only one "push" towards the event will occur per week, unless a Reach is spent to increase the frequency of the "pushes" to once per day.

It will be a difficult casting, however. You will need to spend one Reach to increase the frequency of the "pushes" to once per day, another Reach for Advanced Duration, and yet another Reach for Advanced Scale. Assuming you have Fate 4, that is two Reaches beyond your limit, forcing you to use a Dedicated Tool and spend a large chunk of Mana to avoid Paradox.

Even then, casting will take a single ritual casting interval, and you will have to take a -10 dice penalty to increase the Advanced Scale to "a small neighborhood." A -10 penalty is nothing that Exceptional Luck cannot handle, of course.

If you do succeed, however, you will place Strings of Fate upon the entire "small neighborhood" for a month. Each day during that month, events will set themselves into motion that nudge the neighborhood into inciting the proper riot.

>>47706762

As for whether or not it would be an Act of Hubris, that is up for debate. Many of 1e's Mage books were surprisingly supportive of "rising up against the system," and a host of non-Left-Handed Legacies would support sparking riots to rebel against chains of oppression.

>>47706926
>ghetto
>random thug
I don't think he's trying to create a revolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVMHeqxQlBs
Rabbit Shifters?
>"If they catch you, then they will kill you, but first they must catch you."

>That one autist still gets furious when the mechanics are discussed.

>>47707632
It's Aspel.

>>47707638
Doug just wants to argue because it makes him feel important and valid. Lord knows he doesn't get that anywhere else in life.

>>47707655
We get it, you're a stalker

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>>47707632
I like how complaining about obsessive and highly detailed focused dissection is autism now.

Does anyone have the Tal’Mahe’Ra book?

>>47707765
Getting triggered just because of it is autism.

>>47707765
Says the system with huge blocks of text on how flashlights, firearm suppressors, crowbars, nightvision goggles, etc. works.

Says the system that has you track ranges and count ammo.

>>47707821
We might have gotten a quite different CofD if they weren't initially tied to more minor updates thanks to CCP. CofD obviously WANTS to be more narrative-ish.

>>47707821
Huge blocks of text doesn't really mean it's not narrative. I mean, they're not giving hard and fast rules, they're giving paragraphs worth of vague suggestions. It also never talks about ammo counting aside from Autofire rules, which have phrases like "20 or so" bullets. By the way, I think Touhou said the Flashlight rules were a page and a half, but this is what they are:

>Flashlight
>Die Bonus +1, Durability 2, Size 1, Structure 3, vailability •
>Effect: In a dark world, a flashlight can be a person’s best friend. It generally does what it’s supposed to; it helps cut a path through the unknown. Its die bonus subtracts from any penalties due to darkness, and adds to any rolls to search in the dark. A good flashlight can serve as a club in a pinch. Also, it can blind an unfortunate subject. A Dexterity + Athletics roll, subtracting an informed opponent’s Defense, will put the beam where it needs to be. The victim’s player may make a contested Stamina roll. If your character scores more successes than the subject, they’re blinded for one turn. Victims with especially acute senses are blinded for two turns.
It's a general write up that gives advice on some off the cuff thing that a Storyteller might have to make up on the fly and that's about it. Pretty much none of the equipment is really all that detailed, mechanically, and most of the write ups concern how characters might use the equipment to further the story. You talk about tracking ranges and ammo count, but those are generally not things that will come up often; they've even started handwaving it to "Range bands" instead of actual ranges. The stats for guns are also general, and a one-size-fits-all that allows people who care about individual stats to have them and people who don't to keep not caring.

Almost everything from the core CofD mechanics feels like every time the ST made a judgement call, they just wrote that down and decided it was the rules.

Can anyone share v20 The Black Hand : A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra?

>>47708050
>tfw no Giovanni in nWoD to play a Mobster
I have been watching Sopranos lately

>>47708164
Doesn't CofD have the Sangiovanni?

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>>47708050

>By the way, I think Touhou said the Flashlight rules were a page and a half

The post you are thinking of is:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47584806/#47586994
"Have a look at page 226 of Mage: The Awakening 2e, for example. The *entire, text-only page* is dedicated to half of the rules for flashlights and the rules for personal computers (apparently, the dice bonus between a low-end and top-end computer is a whopping +3, the difference between a novice programmer and a hacker who can get into government and military systems, as per page 32 of Chronicles of Darkness), smartphones, survival gear, climbing gear, crowbars, firearm suppressors, and gas masks. By all accounts, this game is trying to be strangely simulationist by devoting a whole page to such relatively trivial things."

It is rather damning for an all-text page in a supposedly "narrative" game to be dedicated to half of the rules for flashlights and the rules for personal computers, smartphones, survival gear, climbing gear, crowbars, firearm suppressors, and gas masks.

Even the relatively short block of text for the flashlight is laughably long for such a trivial item.

Certain posters in these threads have a deplorable habit of misremembering arguments so as to subsequently twist and misrepresent others' points.

>>47708186
are they still the Mafia?

>>47708192
if you want, yes.

>>47708192
>>47708200

Are Mekhet though, so....no potence/vigour for you.

>>47708050
The CofD writers are backpedaling like crazy on the ammo/ranges.

>>47708208
physical disciplines are available to all

>>47708164
You don't need to be part of the Mobster Vampires Clan to be a mobster.

>>47708154
You asked that less than an hour ago. >>47707774
If anyone was going to share it, they're less likely to the more you ask.

>>47708190
>Even the relatively short block of text for the flashlight is laughably long for such a trivial item.
Not really. I'll admit it doesn't need to be that long, especially the Computer and smartphone entries, which are basically just "these are what computers are, but you already know that" without even giving the "uh, if it comes up I guess use this roll" style that the Flashlight write up has. It honestly just feels like they *don't* want it to just be a list of stats. Which, I can't really fault them for, since I'll read an equipment write up, but glaze over the weapon charts.
Also, you've stopped obsessively naming your images.

>>47708219
It's not like they were ever strict about it or anything. There were no real rules regarding it other than "here are ammo numbers" and "if you're in this range take this penalty".

nWoD has always been a crunch medium system. It doesn't expect you to use all of it's mechanics (and in many situations outright says not to bother before giving them anyway), even if they're there. Compare this to something like Shadowrun, where if you take out one small thing you need to tweak other things to compensate. Although I'd also expect Shadowrun to not *have* rules for a flashlight despite being a number obsessed system, but maybe I'm selling it short because I think it's a dumb convoluted system. Still, compare how it handles guns (or anything) to how CofD does.

>>47708263
They allways were, just saying that its not as easy to go for the bruiser archetype as before.

>>47708274
>no potence/vigour for you.

>>47708321
I was memeing, anybody who knows about the system knows that everyboy can get the 3 physical disciplines, even if they are out of clan disciplines.

Its just more expensive.

Sorry if you misunderstood that.

>>47702224
Truly ours is the world of darkness

Eh I guess either Ventrue or Gangrel is better for a mobster type character. Perhaps Daeva maybe.

>>47708796
Depends on how you want to play your Mobster I guess.

>>47708875
Ventrue and Gangrel are self explanatory (Capo/enforcer respectfully) a Daeva might represent the hedonistic self destructive kind of mobster. The young and stupid that get swept up in the glory (like Christopher from The Sopranos). Or a Mob wife or Comare.
Mekhet might be harder to swing. Maybe a crooked detective or someone working in politics.
Nosferatu I guess could work in any position really.

>>47708926
Daeva equals JoJo style flashy mobster.

>>47708942
Maybe back in the golden age of the mob but not modern day.
Though I dont know maybe Ralphie is a good example I guess?

>>47707675

Not even a good one, there's not a single person in the world whose name is actually Doug. Doug is a name that does not exist.

>>47706186

I'm pretty sure that agreement that's part of it makes it so you can't say what it is.

>>47708998
>I'm pretty sure that agreement that's part of it makes it so you can't say what it is.
Actually, as far as I can tell there's nothing preventing you from even posting it on the OPP forums or something
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B57iDF62OjtPV3dDT0VRN3gxMkU/edit

But I don't know legalese, and "nothing stopping you" doesn't make it a good idea.

>>47709017

I could have sworn there was a clause in there that was like "in addition to us owning this idea, once you send it to us you can't share it" but I could be wrong.

Can Prime be used for super accurate divination?

>>47709872
>Can Prime be used

No

>>47708271
>>47707774
>>47708154
That wasn't me. He posted his question while I was reading the rest of the thread so I didn't see his.

hey is it possible that my mage does not perceive ghosts like your stereotypical spectre but echoes/memories of those long gone? Perceive ghosts like petals being blown by a non existent wind etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGPnffuz_EM
Beast?

>>47710482
Certainly gay enough

>>47708926
Mekhet is the loyal right hand of a mobster, or maybe their lawyer

>>47710451
Dunno, but if I was the ST I'd sure as hell allow it. In fact, I'd probably even houserule that to be the default, as it would help distinguish ghosts from stuff like spirits.

>>47710912
out gm usually allows our mages to view the world in their own lenses colored by their experiences. Afterall, the Supernal is symbolism and even perception is defined by symbols. So two mages will look at the same thing with Mage Sight they may perceive it differently

What kind of spell do I need to make Silent Hill

>>47710678
What makes you say it's gay?

>>47710482

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCywGhHQMEw

No, this is Beast.

Blind Mastigos Arrow who uses magic to see. I his seeing eye dog is his familiar and his cane is a concealed blade.

>>47712128
the big question is how he does this, does he use Mind to ride shotgun on the eyes of his dog, or does he use Space to get a feel for the sympathetic layout of his surroundings?

What's everyone's hopes and dreams for Gen Con?

>more info on Hunter 2e and Scion
>announcements of Geist 2e, maybe Mummy 2e, and (in a perfect world) Demon: the Fallen 15th Anniversary Edition
>Dark Eras 2

>>47712592
Deviant subtitle and an apology to thesubnet

>>47712592
>Dark Eras 2
That seems a bit out there, considering it just came out. Hunter, Scion and Deviant seem likely to make an appearance.

>>47706734
I was going to help you but your choice of words seem to suggest your Wisdom is already pretty damn low...

/pol/ get the fuck out please.

>>47712632
>choice of words seem to suggest your Wisdom is already pretty damn low...
Or he's a servant of the Ministry of the Panopticon (do their actions cause Sleepers to turn on minorities?)

>>47712592
I wouldn't count on Mummy 2e yet, sadly. Geist 2e is a stretch but I'd love if it did get announced.

Honestly they should just do a Mortal Remains-esque book just for Mummy with rules hacks to update it to 2e, or at least make it compatible with 2e.

>>47712668
Those are not mutually exclusive things, you know. In fact, they're often related.

>>47712592

>Geist 2e announcement (I'm expecting Mummy next year)
>A look at the first couple of Hunter supplements
>Some new CofD Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage supplements announced
>WoD Ghost Hunter book released and on sale
>A "special" CofD supplement in the vein of Dark Eras, without it actually being Dark Eras 2
>Deviant subtitle (if any)

I'd also really like an announcement that CofD books are returning to traditional retail, but we won't see that until we see how Pugmire sells when it hits retail.

>>47712592
Geist 2e.
Probably also >>47712723
I also want some Scion.

>>47712684

I think Mummy could stand with one more year for the line to settle, it's got a lot of moving parts that I don't think a 2e stopgap book would cover adequately. You might as well go all the way with it.

>>47712592
>Deviant subtitle
>More Demon books
>More Mage, Werewolf, Vampire books
>Promethean 2e release

And a prediction:
>Yet another new gameline announced for some reason, before Deviant has even begun proper development.

>>47712625

They're doing a panel called What Is Dark Eras? and I don't see it just being bragging about a finished product.

>>47712778

>Yet another new gameline announced for some reason, before Deviant has even begun proper development.

Oh god, I don't want this to be true, and yet it's so plausible...

>>47712778
>New gameline
What would they even do? I feel like a lot of ground has been covered at this point, and after the Beast debacle I'm skeptical that Deviant will be even decent, let alone yet another new game.

>>47712932
Heartless: The The Shadows

>>47712941
What does the even entail? Do you wait around for some kid in a Sora cosplay to hit you with a metal pipe?

>>47712981
>Lizzie specializes in the Heartless but, like all Harvesters, will take whatever immortal is available when she feels her life running low. At this time, she’s living off the last years of a Patchwork Person. Lizzie can feel that this stolen life will run out soon.

Immortals NPC description mentions HEartless but never goes into what they are, except the assumption that they're immortal.

Seemed like an idea.

>>47712592
Orpheus: CofD edition.
Geist 2e

>>47713154
>Orpheus: CofD edition.
Oh god, if only.

I know it couldn't work the same because of the differences between CofD and oWoD's metaphysics, but I feel like there's loads of room for a similar concept in CofD anyway. Though really they should be a Hunter Conspiracy or similar Minor Template kind of deal.

>>47713222
>Though really they should be a Hunter Conspiracy or similar Minor Template kind of deal.
Call it something like the Players of the Dead, that should work.

>>47713222

The Orpheus Group and its contemporaries would make a fine Tier 2 group, I think.

>>47713313

They're definitely a Conspiracy; they can leave their bodies to enter Twilight and the Underworld.

>>47713360

Fair enough, I was mostly going with Orpheus being an American company barely out of startup like in the core, but it could easily be a worldwide thing.

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So I keep hearing that Demons are extremely powerful, but after reading the book they seem sorta gimped outside of going loud once in a campaign. Am I missing something? What makes them so much better than Vampires or Mages?

>>47714627

In WoD, because offense is dramatically stronger than defense for basically everyone, all that really matters is who swings first.

You can compare power tiers or whatever all day, but ultimately it comes down to which side realizes they're in a fight and which side doesn't, because the latter side is basically dead by default, whether they were a mage, a demon, or a vampire, regardless of whether their oppositon was another mage, a werewolf, or a particularly aggressive sedan.

Demons, being uber-stealthy, tend to swing first more often than everyone else.

>>47714659
Huh. That makes sense.

>>47714627

Go read what Merciless Gunman can do. Embeds and Exploits can get fucking crazy.

>>47712723
>until we see how Pugmire sells when it hits retail
In that case I wouldn't get my hopes high.
Whole concept of that game is completely ridiculous.
If OnyxPath is interested, I have ideas for several other games
-one starring cats
-one starring ponies
-one starring goldfish
-another starring bunnies
and few dozen more which I won't share here, so noone steals my brilliant ideas :-/

>>47702224
i can get behind this movie

>>47714993

>Whole concept of that game is completely ridiculous.

It caught on enough to do well on Kickstarter, even considering that an Onyx Path project has a better chance at doing well than others. I'm not expecting it to set the world on fire, but it'll probably break even.

I want to see Dracula's LARP character sheet

>>47714776
>>47714659
Also most of their powers are subtle but powerful things. In My Pocket means that in 90% of cases, you can pull whatever you need out of your pocket as long as you weren't given the pat down. Or, you know, you can pull it out of a trash can or something.

Not to mention powers like Shift Consequences and Thirty Minutes Ago, which let you fuck other people up. And if all else fails, there's Merciless Gunman and Hellfire, to turn anyone in your way into char. Oh, and they also get bar none the most free powers aside from Sin-eaters, but where most of the Sin-eater template benefits are utility powers and changes to what will put them down, Demons get to build an entire suite of free powers just for being Demons. Almost every Form Power is useful, and activating them as typical powers (i.e.: pay energy, get power) has little to no consequence since you're usually rolling Compromise at +5 or so.

Also, all of their powers tend to be highly narrative, and the splat as a whole doesn't give a shit for things like which powers are "physically reasonable", jumping straight to altering the Matrix.

On top of that, their abilities make them highly undetectable, shut down swaths of antagonist abilities that might catch them off guard, and then instead of resisting supernatural effects with their power stat (which is typically low), they resist with their morality trait, which starts at 7. Demons are without a doubt the most likely to lose Morality (since "having human Breaking Points" is a Compromise on top of "Doing Demon shit"), but they've also got the most potential to regain, maintain, and tailor their Morality trait, complete with a subsystem dedicated to it.

>tfw the new Watch Dogs makes me want to play an exceptionally punk Demon game set in San Fran

save me from myself, /cofdg/

It would be a Hunter crossover with Utopia Now as an up-and-coming tech startup, the Night Watch patrolling Oakland and the other shit parts of town, and Network Zero trying to reveal the Machine but constantly being manipulated by it[ into blowing peoples' Covers/spoiler]

Which CofD lines make for the most interesting crossover?

>>47715573
>save me from myself, /cofdg/

https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1465573111109.webm

>>47715593
Hunter, Mage.

>>47715573

The new Watch Dogs makes me want to puke

>>47715593
Mage and Changeling

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How do people feel about the more powerful, or at least more overtly powerful way that Changelings are seemingly portrayed in 2e?

I always got the feeling that Changelings were generally the faction that was punching above their weight the most, and this should bring them into line with or even put them ahead of most other non-Mage splats.

Fucking paradox closed fucking subnet. I know thats old news for you guys, but I've just found that out. I'm so mad right now. It was the best thing for looking shit up, WoD books are fucking unusable at the table. And they removed the only descent online game aid there was. Fucking paradox.

>>47716791
Try WoDCodex.com
it's incomplete but at least it's something

>>47716791
I've been trying to discuss it on the forums only to be met with "b-but it was illegal" and bringing out that trite and discredited argument that piracy hurts sales. One guy had the audacity to say I support piracy because I post in the /wodg/. Obviously it's the other way around
And I can't link a crapton of studies showing that in many cases piracy is beneficial, since that's against forum rules.

I mean, fuck, illegal or not, they pissed off a lot of people.

>>47716829

Until there's a better set of IP law, you gotta let it go. The Dark Pack's back and there's nothing we can really do about it.

should I get the Chronicles of Darkness Core if I have both the nWoD core and the god-machine rules update, or is the new core just both of them in one package?

>>47717087
Nah, you don't need it unless you want all the rules in a single book.
Most of the rules text is a copy-paste from VtR2e.

>>47717170

It's got a few extra rules that might be cool to use, but yeah, you're better off with a copy of any 2e core for the basics.

>>47716745
>>47716745

Well they are still fighting immortal quasi deities who consider sending terminators to hunt down missing pets, slaves and car keys to be totally justified.

Also Dual Kith needs balancing. EVERYONE HAS IT.THE WHOLE DAMN PARTY. THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

>>47717208
Could you point me to any examples you can remember? I'd rather not have to go through the whole thing again to find the differences.

I just ordered Beast. I also found out everyone hates it. How bad is it?

>>47717243
It's basically SJW: the Crybullying.

>>47717258
FUUUUUUUUCK. FUCK FUCK FUCK

>>47717228
Say that in the open dev for changeling. David Hill did open it up for just this reason. He has a questionnaire for this.

>>47717243
Book started off horrible, and has turned into being merely unlikeable.
It has unsympathetic characters who try to excuse their bullshit with a flimsy "it's good for you" excuse.
The villains had to have a sidebar saying "oh yeah, we're only talking about the bad ones, not the good ones".
It's basically built to be a crossover book, and is thus mostly devoid of all actual direction by itself.
It's crossover potential is mostly in "hey, I can completely ignore my feeding requirement by just following you around when you hunt for your resource", and a universal power boost effect to every single splat (bar Demons).
Plus this crossover bullshit is attempted to be justified by trying to claim that their cosmology encompasses everyone's, and that they're all family, and isn't that great guys? Which only works to make them look horrendously deluded or arrogant as fuck (think 1e Mage Supremacy "Imma control Prometheans with Prime" bullshit).
Their morality stat is also their resource stat, which can be manipulated constantly gaining them an only recently surpassed capacity to farm beats.
Despite being "beasts" they're really only people who have spooky magic souls.
Their Dream Diving thing intrudes on Changeling space, their monster feeding thing intrudes on Werewolf space, and their parasitic relationship with humans intrudes on Vampires.

Basically it's a shitty directionless crapheap written for the sole purpose of parasitically latching on to much better splats and claiming that they were there aaaaaaaal along and it's so great the children of the night mother (or fucking whatever) are there to work with you, while truly being the redheaded step-child with down syndrome who everyone really doesn't want to even look at.

>>47717228
Problem being, back in 1e while the Gentry coming after you was nothing to sneeze at, they were only fairly stronger than a powerful Changeling.
Certainly someone you could fight back, or even kill given a plan and a few Shotguns full of pig iron shot.

Now they've got the unrelenting Huntsmen who will just keep getting mad with their crazy powers, and it's kinda blown it all out of proportion. Even if you defeat or kill a Huntsman, there will just be another. And another. And another.

And even if you go with the "Gentry have many different face and forms they use, kill one and that's only a moderate to minor loss for them" aspect, it still felt like a real victory.

>>47716953
https://web.archive.org/web/20100403134022/http://www.white-wolf.com/darkpack/fs_agreementterms.php
>2. CCP hf. owns the copyright, and/or a copyright interest, in all of the World of Darkness products published by it, its licensed partners and its affiliates. These interests include (but are not limited to): the Storyteller System; the backstory of the World of Darkness including factions (clans, tribes, etc.), named characters and unique locations, and items; and the storylines expressed in its novels, game products, licensed products, and the Camarilla worldwide chronicles; the artwork included in those works; and any and all derivative works of those materials.

>A derivative work is an expressive creation that includes or incorporates a portion of one or more previously created works. In the US and many other countries, this means a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work".

This is the most up to date version I could find (not currently on the internet anymore, requiring the Wayback Machine). They own your fan art. They own Darker Days Radio! A previous version explicitly stated that they want to own your characters!

>>47717935
The only reason they can do that is because no one would bother to contest a cease and desist. That totally violates free use laws.

>>47717984
>no one would bother to contest a cease and desist
Copyright laws, ladies and gentlement.

>>47717234
Chases, Investigations, merits that work off of those rules, Horrors.

>>47717243
Not as bad as >>47717258 this dumbass says, but also it's dumb and bland and basically a half-template stretched into a full book.

>>47717392
>Their Dream Diving thing intrudes on Changeling space
Dream diving is more Mage's space (and literally uses the Mage realm). That they feed off of fear is Changeling space. That they're playing the monster is Vampire's space. Cheap crossover is Hunter's space.
I really want an STG or Player's Guide for Beast, but this is OPP so even if they make one it won't come out until 2018.

>>47717984
Which is fuckin' shitty!

I will give them credit and say that this is only for being an OFFICIAL fansite. But still, it's a bold fuckin' move.

>>47717935
>CCP
the company doesn't even own it anymore

>>47718071
>This is the most up to date version I could find (not currently on the internet anymore, requiring the Wayback Machine)
I'm aware CCP doesn't own it anymore. But Dracula references the Dark Pack guidelines in his blog post, and that's what they currently exist as. Which is to say, they don't currently exist, since the only way to find them is an archived version of the White Wolf site from years ago.

>>47718012
Buttmad SJW detected

>>47718115
Buttmad alt-righty detected

>>47712202
Space perception

>>47718109
>But Dracula references the Dark Pack guidelines in his blog post, and that's what they currently exist as.
the blog post titled new dark pack guidelines coming soon?

>>47718243
The one that says "these fan site guidelines exist", yes.
>While we are supporters of community fan pages that help facilitate the enjoyment of our games and brands, White Wolf has always maintained a standard set amount of reasonable guidelines for said fan-sites to follow (The Dark Spiral/Dark Pack) that don’t infringe on our rights or the rights of our partners.

when would the rule for using guns in melee even come into play, considering you can just move away at the start of your turn and then shoot.
so unless you have someone grappled or cornered to the point that they can't physically get around you, they still have the upper hand by far.
unless you can interrupt their turn by delaying and move up to them before they shoot, but I don't know if that's a valid use of the delay action; just wanted to get some opinions, I already have a theory on how I'll deal with this in my game, but some more experienced opinions would be nice.

>>47718320
This is what 2hu actually believes.

>>47718012
>Not as bad as >>47717258 (You) this dumbass says, but also it's dumb and bland and basically a half-template stretched into a full book.

It's literally about Beasts who were from "marginalized" or "outsider" groups creating fear and misery to teach humankind a "lesson," while the Heroes who try to stop them are actually the true bad guys. It's about how it's only wrong when their enemies do it. Literally.

>>47718328
>>47718320
"You started your turn in melee, so you take the penalty"
2e doesn't actually have guns penalized by Defense in melee, other than size+1

>>47718397
Only in the first draft and barely even then.

>>47718320
I just say unless you're crazy fast, then you still count as being in melee when you shoot, imposing the bonus defence against your shot.

>>47718428
>Only in the first draft and barely even then.

I wish I was as autistic as Touhoufag right now so I could start quoting the book at you to this effect.

>>47718450
Man, I was here during the early leak. I was part of the hullaballoo and bitching. In retrospect I feel like even the valid complaints were blown out of proportion, and half of it was "Matt is literally a serial killer!"

The book had the same wanky tone that Vampire had, but that was about it. Most of the "these are the gays and trannies and blacks, it's an X-men metaphor!" shit was kind of a leap. I don't entirely believe Matt when he says "if it was intentional I'd do it right", but especially in the finish product, it's nowhere near as bad as the anti-hype.

Plus, I legitimately think Heroes are interesting villains. Now more than before, now that they're not impossible to exist, since they're born instead of made through one shitty mechanic that statistically was unlikely to happen.

Beast is bland, and yeah, it's still about being a shitty person so you can call it "problematic", but it's not like it's playing a Doom mod with your classmate's faces.

>>47717258
Holy shit, you literally stole that from an OPP post.
>Beast is, to put it simply, SJW: the Crybullying. Beasts are strictly banned in all of my games.

>>47718428
I meant the defense bonus for the target, my bad

>>47718536
Heroes are decent enough, mortals with a strong connection to the Astral would be interesting once you detach them from the whole "gotta fight monsters" aspect.

Exploring their own Oneiros, making bargains with Goetia, waging wars in the Temenos over what they believe mankind should be like.

It could be great.
Like a more focussed version of Mage the Ascension.

>>47718536
Please bear in mind that I don't think it's the worst game everrrrr, or anything as extreme as that. I roll my eyes at it. I move on.

That said, the fact that the game's text spends a great deal of time rationalizing the bad behavior of Beasts, coupled with the condescending tone that they're actually the good guys even though they spend their time fucking people up, and the Heroes who try to stop these Beasts are actually just idiot jocks, coupled yet again with the fact that one of the stock Heroes is an MRA incel with a trilby, coupled finally with the fact that one of the book's mechanics disables all non-Beast supernatural effects until the target admits how wrong they are...

...does, to me, betray that SJW thought was put into the game. It reeks of struggle sessions, of presumption of superiority, and of smugness. It's not for me.

I strictly forbid the creation of these characters in my games. If you want to have some kind of revenge fantasy against jocks and normies in your RPG's, have at it. But I'm not interested. Sorry, man.

>>47718618
>Like a more focussed version of Mage the Ascension.
Feels more like Hunter: The Reckoning.

>>47718636
But they don't really say they're the good guys. In fact, their argument against Heroes in the first draft is "we have a right to exist". Even at first, Heroes were shitty people who make it all about them and hunt Beasts regardless of whether they're doing anything wrong.

It's no more "a revenge fantasy against jocks and normies" than Hunter. And "revenge" or even "jealousy" are legitimate Hunter origins!

>>47718773
>Hunter: The Reckoning
I never read about oWoD Hunter.
Did you go on raids into the subconscious to murder a powerful Goetia of Amoral Capitalism tied to your city to save it from degeneration and better the lives of the common man?

>>47718428
>"You started your turn in melee, so you take the penalty"
Not how it works.

>>47718818
No, but it's how he makes it work to avoid everyone not bothering with melee weapons and saying "I step back a few meters and shoot him in the face".

>>47718818
Does if I'm the ST.

>>47718817
No, but you don't do that as a Hero, either.
Hunter the Reckoning is about being a crazy person guided by Messengers into murdering people who are *probably* supernatural.

You ever play DmC? That whole thing where the level layout gets KILL DANTE or TRAP HIM written across it is basically how the Imbued see the world.

They also have the power to imbue mundane objects with their knock off Solar Exalt powers and do damage to monsters, sort of like Anathema.

>>47718838
There's also "there's no space, and I'm not letting you slip around the person you're fighting just because the rules don't have Attacks of Opportunity"

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does anyone have a comprehensive list of power rankings for oWoD?
Doing a game of mage asscencion and curious to know what other supernaturals we can use as antagonists and allies. Looking at using demon the fallen in particular.

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Can anybody recommend a good play-by-post game for C/WoD? Not owod

>>47719264
http://thefinalcrossroads.com/

>>47719264
>good
>Play-by-post
No.

>>47719155
The best one is dead now, rp.thesubnet.com
But since this is the internet:
http://www.snowsidhe.com/ResourceGuide/DLores.htm

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>>47711330
>Pet Shop Boys
>Not gay

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DICE

>Touhou got told he was adding nothing to the FAQ discussion
>Makes three threads about his complaints
>Everyone points out the ST exists to stop those abuses in the first place
a kek is in order

>>47719634
double kek

>>47719657
They can where all else fails, but they shouldn't have to.

>>47719676
Yeah, but when it comes to things like "I can use Steadfast on Wisdom loss", there's no reason to argue that anyone would allow that. Dave even said "use your common sense". It's also funny to see him keep linking archived 4chan threads on the forums.

Although in the one about Breaking Exceptional Luck, it's interesting to see someone *else* go all MtG Judge on him.

>>47719264
>>47719359
Seconding this

>>47719753
DaveB going 'use your common sense :^)' is scummy as fuck because he clearly doesn't give a shit about writing a good game.

Thread in question
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/909046-breaking-exceptional-luck

>>47719764
Or he doesn't give a fuck about obvious bullshit?

>>47719777
>Or he doesn't give a fuck about obvious bullshit?
If something's broke, FUCKING FIX IT.

>>47719832
There's a hole.
It's an out of the way hole.
Most people will never go near this hole.
Many will never know it exists.
Why are you concerned that people might fall into this hole?

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/909108-steadfast-and-automatically-succeeding-on-degeneration-rolls?p=909291#post909291
>In any case, we are never going to produce a massive list of every Condition in the game and say which do and don't apply to act of hubris rolls or spellcasting. New Conditions enter the Storytelling system almost every book. You're just going to have to use your common sense and what the Condition represents in-fiction to decide if it works or not.

"Prime is shit" is more reasonable a complaint than "I can cheat at Wisdom loss" or "I don't understand what a Skill roll is".

>>47720027
Here's what steadfast is:

Your character is confident and resolved. When you’ve
failed a roll, resolve this Condition to instead treat the action
as if you’d rolled a single success. If the roll was a chance die,
you may resolve this Condition and roll a single die instead.
Resolution: Use the Condition, as noted.

>Your character is confident and resolved
>This means it's common sense to not allow the condition to be used against degeneration

>>47708164
Of course you can play a vampire mobster. But the big thing with how Requiem changed stuff is that you don't HAVE to play a Mobster to be a necromancer.

>>47720060
It's common sense to not allow someone to use a magical spell to give themselves Steadfast to completely ignore Wisdom loss so that they can repeatedly gain Experience from doing nothing but causing Breaking Point rolls that they'll automatically succeed.

>>47720027
Why not fill the hole or put a cover over it?

>>47720075
I dont even want to be a necromancer. I actually didnt like that aspect about the Giovanni.

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>>47720095
Acknowledging the systems flaws would make it flawed in their mind. People say they understand things aren't perfect, but that's kind of like people saying that everyones entitled to their own opinion. It lasts until they run into something they disagree with.

>>47720095
Because they only have so much material to work with, and covering that hole is going to leave another hole somewhere else.

>>47720120
But they're already making a FAQ and errata ANYWAY.

>>47720095

Because why do anything when the ST can do all the work? Making the ST fix the game is a time honored tradition in the hobby

>>47718536
>The book had the same wanky tone that Vampire had, but that was about it. Most of the "these are the gays and trannies and blacks, it's an X-men metaphor!" shit was kind of a leap. I don't entirely believe Matt when he says "if it was intentional I'd do it right", but especially in the finish product, it's nowhere near as bad as the anti-hype.

No. It was billed as a crossover book, and ALL the interactions with other supers were written with the Beast in a point of superiority.

>>47719601
That doesn't answer my question.

>>47720095
Why drive out to the desert and fill a hole only idiots will fall into?

>>47720110
>>47720147
It's not about acknowledging the system is flawed. Everyone acknowledges the system is flawed. It's also not about saying nothing can be perfect, so why bother.
It's about the fact that this is not the major game breaking "bug" that it's made out to be. It's a minor issue that can be solved with "eh, don't do that". There are a ton of more pertinent issues in the system. Like I said, "Prime is shit" is more of a problem than those outlandish fringe cases.

This is literally the kind of thing the Storyteller exists for.

>>47720137
Yes, and the only way to change this so that it's acceptable to Touhou and others is to change Steadfast to say "you can't use this for Breaking Points" (which as Dave points out, it may not apply anyway) or keep you from being able to grant Steadfast with magic.

The first only matters if you can grant Steadfast willy nilly, and the second is only a problem if you use Steadfast to cheat at Breaking Points to rack up Beats while sitting in your Sanctum and self-mutilating instead of doing wizard things. Neither require you to change the rules so that reasonable uses are punished.

>>47720102
Yeah. Too bad that if you wanted to be a vampire mobster in Masquerade you had to be one!

>>47720178
>It's not about acknowledging the system is flawed. Everyone acknowledges the system is flawed. It's also not about saying nothing can be perfect, so why bother.

See
>People say they understand things aren't perfect, but that's kind of like people saying that everyones entitled to their own opinion

>>47720186
Or a Ventrue works too. Or any other vampire clan. The Giovanni is one organized crime family. Not ALL organized crime.

>>47720161
All of the Stereotypes have ALWAYS been about how the faction in question is better or pities the one they're stereotyping. The Changeling Elemental quote for Mages is the laughably self-aggrandizing "Difference between them and me? I'm not cheating, I AM magic".

Even then, after everyone complained that Beast was doing the same thing every other splat does, all the Beast stereotypes went from chest thumping and pitying to "notice me, sempai~"

>>47720161
Not the guy you were talking to, but that crossover aspect was one of the things that most excited me about the game before it got leaked. If the writers showed a bit more tact and respect for the games that Beast was supposed to be complimenting, I think it wouldn't be as disliked as it is now, and maybe we would actually look forward to playing games with Beasts in our groups. Make them more of a "High Priest of the Supernatural" and less of an "Apex Monster." The former could actually be interesting if it had more mechanics for buffing up or copying other supernaturals and their abilities rather than attempting to eclipse them.

>>47720178
Aspel please go.

>>47720178
Dude, take a fucking trip or something so people can filter you. You won't have to deal with them, they won't have to deal with you, everyone will be happier.

>>47720178
>keep you from being able to grant Steadfast with magic

And that's good, because then we won't have people fucking auto-passing casting rolls just because they have Fate 2.

>>47720218
Yeah. But they were all "The Abyss? Naahting, I'm scarier than that." "Werewolf think you can fight? Yeah right." "Vampires? Pff. Weaklings."

I'm not saying the Changeling stuff is good (it isn't), but Changelings aren't supposed to get along super-duper-well with everyone because they have a magical friend-field. And then be smug about it.

>>47720243
Yeah. I have that problem at my table. A Fate mage who pulls himself down to one die for all ritual spells, and just walks out of any problem because he uses Steadfast.
We've talked about it, but what we'd have to do to remove this kind of cheese is basically remove the entire Fate Arcanum.

I never thought I'd miss Mage 1e.

>>47720268
Nah, the 2hu trick from from the last threads showed you can get down to -5 and use one of the Fate boons to make that 1 die which you can then Steadfast into a success.

>>47720268
Have you pointed this out on the Forums? If they have it on "official" channels I can't imagine that they can really ignore it, especially when its shown to be abused.

>>47720252
>The Abyss? Naahting, I'm scarier than that.
Oh the looks on their faces when their Lair ends up part of the Twisted Maze due to Scelestus fuckery will be priceless.

>>47720268
That's the point of mage. Why even play Mage if your not going to use the power?

>>47720166
Not that guy, but the only thing I know about Pet Shop Boys is that they have a huge gay following. Heard it in the news when they came to my country a few years back.

>>47720252
Like I said, *everyone* is like that. Even then, most of them felt like Mage stereotypes. The sort of "oh, I know all about this, I'm an expert".
Because Beast is a Chuuni splat.

>>47720268
Or "you can't use Steadfast on Spells or Breaking Points"? Or even just "as the ST I'm asking you to please not do that".

>>47720285
I can certainly see the argument for "you literally can't fail anything" being frustrating. But the answer isn't to rip out an entire Arcanum.

>>47720314
>Or "you can't use Steadfast on Spells or Breaking Points"? Or even just "as the ST I'm asking you to please not do that".

Yeah. The Breaking Point stuff they figured out on their own. It's the rest of the stuff the guy does.

>>47720283
>tfw the beast just rolls with it and becomes an existential threat to the world

>>47720460
Isn't that kind of what an Apex is? I haven't seen the final beast book, but that is what that Darker Days podcast made it seem.

>>47720460
But when the Maze is remove by a Guardian, then the Lair (and hopefully the Beast) will be excised from reality.

>>47720612
I don't see why it would work that way. Then again, I'm not sure how the situation presented >>47720283 would work.

Although I feel that "existential threat to the world" is along the lines of endgame boss, as opposed to something one chick can casually solve.

>>47720075
The original clanbook says that they aren't really involved with the mob directly, they just keep tabs on the cosa nostra with a few scattered moles.
Giovanni are more like an Italian necrophiliac Addams Family than mobsters

>>47720817
>Italian necrophiliac Addams Family
So they're just like the regular Addams family, but Italian?

>>47720178
>The first only matters if you can grant Steadfast willy nilly, and the second is only a problem if you use Steadfast to cheat at Breaking Points to rack up Beats while sitting in your Sanctum and self-mutilating instead of doing wizard things.

Burning Wheel has a wonderful little rule wherein characters cannot gain experience in tasks for doing things that are not plot-relevant. With regards to learning new spells I believe the exact line is "wizards can't sit around in their tower lighting their couch on fire." It's a nice principle and one that I try to bring to all my games when I can.

>>47720467
I just got the idea of an Apex that somehow entered a symbiotic relationship with it and can open Primordial Pathways to the Chamber it has infected to steal pieces of reality. Slowly it is becoming one with the Twisted Maze and the Abyss, turning it not just into a phenomenon, but a reality in it's own right. Who knows what will happen when it steals enough of the world?

>>47721196
I feel like explicitly stating something like that isn't something a game should do in the first place. Apparently I'm wrong about it being a necessity, though.

I mean, the section in the book about "can't you farm Beats? Sure, mages do it all the time" gives examples that are plot relevant, like a Mastigos apprentice being made to confront their fears by a mentor. But people take it out of context to just argue they get 8 beats per day during downtime, or use it to justify the equivalent of lighting their couch on fire.

>>47721281
Roll with it bruh. Could be really fucking spooky when creatures from this new reality start making an appearance, or beings like the God Machine take an interest and start trying to place infrastructure inside of it only for it to warp into something entirely different.

An idea I had for a Mehket would be a Fixer. You know when you watch documentaries? Usually locals that know about the local areas most of the time a journalist themselves? For a world hopping kind of game that might be fun.

>>47721313
with people like 2hu, you have to put those rules in or else you get "well the book doesn't say I CAN'T."

>the RAW shouldn't match RAI sperg is at it again.

>>47722214
Oh, you need simple concepts like "skill rolls" and "gaining experience requires you to actually play the game" explained to you? I'm so, so sorry. It must have been very difficult for your mother when the doctor suggested she get an abortion, but look at you, all grown up and able to use the internet.

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>>47722231
>just come up with your own rules if you dont like these ones!

What level of Life do i need to stop a heart?

>>47722250
That's a strawman, and you know it. Come on now, you know that's not a reasonable argument. No one is saying to houserule the entire game here. No one is even saying that the rules are somehow perfect and shouldn't be different.

But these are things that shouldn't even need to be explained. They're basic concepts. They're the kind of complaints that can ONLY exist in a hypothetical scenario where the ST is a mindless robot.

Do you honestly believe that even the most pushover of an ST would let you ignore the game and have an infinite loop of XP gain? Do you really need an official definition for "skill roll"? We're not talking about whether Chaos Mastery should be nerfed. We're talking about whether simple and obvious things need to be spelled out to the reader. Making it clear that you need to actually *play* the game to gain Experiences is about on par with explaining that you can't walk through walls just because the game doesn't say walls are impassible. That the arguments get to the point of quibbling over the definition of a skill roll, or arguing that since it says resolving *the* Condition prematurely ends the spell, multiple Conditions must clearly not be subject to that. Several of the posts repeatedly argued that you could use Steadfast and Informed on the same roll, despite both their wording and simple logic saying otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ypaXNVPkSg
This is what all these arguments start to sound like.

These aren't things that can be fixed with some rules patch because the problem isn't with the rules.

>>47722317
>But these are things that shouldn't even need to be explained. They're basic concepts. They're the kind of complaints that can ONLY exist in a hypothetical scenario where the ST is a mindless robot.
>Steadfast can't be used to resist degeneration rolls.
>Come on, this is COMMON sense!
The rules need to be clarified. There is no reason not to clarify rules when they're unclear and could be clarified. Stop defending the developers with your "muh ST will solve this" and "white room white room" bullshit and let people keep pointing out the problems until the developers do their job. The system isn't perfect and talking about the flaws hurts your feelings, we get it, but some of us STs here don't want to waste our time making arbitrary judgements about the core system when the rules could have just been made clear in the first place.

Fuck off.

>>47722267
Probably 4.

>>47722267
4, Practice of Unraveling.

>>47722385
2hu has done exactly two things of any value:
1. pointed out that the example spells don't often match with what creative thaumaturgy says is possible.
2. pointed out that the storytelling system's probability curve is kind of weird.

all his "gamebreaking" stuff is otherwise pun-pun tier nonsense or a quibble with the system that is not big enough to devote three or four entire threads to at this point.

>>47722766
>pun-pun tier nonsense or a quibble with the system
Tell that to Exceptional Luck.
With a mere rote, Fate 3 and no other elements whatsoever, not even using feedback or anything, with no prep time, and only one spell.
You can guaran-fucking-tee a success in another spell which would normally have a -5 die modifier.
Every turn.
For 1 mana a pop.

That's not feeding spells into other spells with a questionable understanding or interpretation of the rules.
That's a simple application of a very basic spell in a very straightforward way, which just so happens to completely break the Magic system.

>>47722808
Exceptional Luck is Fate 2, not Fate 3.

>>47722869
Fate 3 gives Potency 3 for 3 Boon instances.
You can do it with Fate 2, but the Bonus dice are nice for an extra hit of Potency.
Also it makes it easier to manage to cast it in the first place.

Did the anon making a Moros Seer in the Prelacy of Scarcity ever get back to us?

>>47722808
it relies on using the informed & steadfast conditions to negate massive penalties for the big potency.
it's a very specific and honestly kind of insane "bug" that is extremely unlikely to occur to anyone in actual play. and again, as everyone has pointed out, whether the exploit actually works is completely in the hands of ST fiat. Would clarification be nice? Yes. Is it a thing that will happen in every Mage game with an Acanthus, is it such an obvious and game-smashing problem that Mage: the Awakening 2nd edition is an unplayable heap? No. It's simply too niche to...matter...that much?

>>47722990
Even bar the abuse of Steadfast (you don't even need Informed), you could still use it for an easy additional Fate in dice, and 9-again on Rolls, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you combine it with less egregious conditions, like Inspired.

Plus if you're ignoring its use on Magic, you can do it constantly for every single mundane action you take in your life. Full stop. No other spell has as much universal application. Plus you don't even need the Mana for mundane use.

Exceptional Luck is completely broken

>>47723026
>Plus you don't even need the Mana for mundane use.

You need Mana for REFLEXIVE Exceptional Luck.

>>47723361
Ah, so it does.
Well, I guess most mundane tests can wait 3 seconds, or you can spend the small mana tithe.

>>47723386
Maybe if your ST is shit.

>>47723442
Bar combat situations, I'm finding it hard to think of a situation when sitting back a few seconds to think and get Lady Luck in your corner would be a bad thing or impossible.

And seriously man "well bro, if it's a problem for you then your ST sucks" is no justification for shitty rules.

>>47723442
Do all of your games take place in a white room where every skill check requires immediate resolution? You should get a better ST.

>>47723470

>And seriously man "well bro, if it's a problem for you then your ST sucks" is no justification for shitty rules.

While there are certainly times where the quality of the GM does matter, most of the time it feels like the TTRPG equivalent of "works on my machine!"

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I wasn't aware that they had come this far. This is from the Onyx Path forums.

>>47723991
>Literally just a warning about following the rules of the board.

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>>47724015
These rules are very much not enforced consistently. Someone went on an off-topic rant about how raycissed and monstrous Donald Trump supporters are with no similar "warning."

When only one side has to follow certain rules, the one-sidedness is in itself an issue.

>>47723991
reads like an rpg.net post

>>47702084
>What Country are your games set in? How does your choice of nation affect them?
I have set games both in my home country (Germany) and am currently running a game set in Eastern Europe, Budapest to be precise.

The first game had the Players in a German, very Ventrue-centric City. Good fun overall.
The game was with international players, so i often ran into the problem that i described something that was utterly mundane to me, but let the (mostly american) players scratch their heads:
For example "Kneipe", a neighborhood bar that serves alcohol and small snacks.
Thats easy enough to say, but there also more nuanced connotations, like the state of borderline-disrepair and that the barkeeper knows everybody by name that are harder to communicate easily.
And other things that, if said to somebody with the same cultural background, would be implicit have to be spelled out. I know that this is to a degree my fault as a ST, but it's hard to avoid with the more mundane things.

Therefore, the new Game is set in Budapest. Things are different enough that ii is foreign to both me and the Players, plus the City is an interesting one.

>>47724127
>attacking SJWs and attacking drumpf supporters are the same thing

>>47724359
They are. Both attacking sub cultures.

>>47724207
I don't visit RPG.net. Care to elaborate on that?

>>47724387
Attacking people who are (annoyingly) fighting for justice and fighting back against a hate group are not the same thing. Yours is a false equivalence.

>>47724427
thats a matter of perspective

>>47724427
>it's only wrong when I do it

Avid Beast fan detected

>>47724435
>>47724447
>ATTACKING A NAZI IS WRONG
>MUH DEMOCRATIC PROCESS!
Drumpf supporters detected. Don't you have a minority to murder?

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>>47723991
>>47724127
top kek

>>47724483
I dont like trump. I'm not even American. And equating people who support a politician you dont like to one of the most evil and brutal regimes in history? Fuckin classless mate.

Can a Prime archmage make anime real?

>>47724483
Not an american here.

If you at least admit you follow personal judgement, then it is ok.

But if you keep telling you are enforcing impartial and fair rules while you are not, that sucks.

Can we please end this discussion with this?

>>47724536
Prime?

Hoo boy.....

Seems more like space (2d to 3d) and life and mind to make you cope with that change.

A bit of fate for ridiculous plots might help.

>>47722385
>>47722808
He's been arguing about "the timing" of using Informed and then Steadfast before the "roll resolves". This is not Magic the fucking Gathering. We get that your feelings get hurt whenever someone points out how nonsensical that is, but that means fuck all to most people.

Even Exceptional Luck is not nearly as big a problem as he's been complaining. And, yes, that is using a questionable understanding of the rules, no matter how much he'll tell you otherwise.

>>47723026
>>47723470
>Even bar the abuse of Steadfast, you could still use it to do the thing that it's intended to be used for
Heaven forbid!

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>>47724543
Sure. But first, I want to post this. Taking bets on how long it takes for Onyx Path to ban me for my problematic opinions of their game.

>>47724562
>We get that your feelings get hurt whenever someone points out how nonsensical that is, but that means fuck all to most people.
This is fucking laughable coming from you, Aspel, given how assmad you get the moment anyone dares to point out a flaw in the system, you hypocritical little shit.

>>47724562
You don't even need to bring Informed in.

You can do chance die -> regular die and Steadfast to autosucceed at -5 final pool for casting.

That's fucking dumb.

>>47724583
You'll be banned for being an insulting shithead, you dumbass.

>>47724583
if you want a to get a chuckle, post therpgsite storygames copypasta

>>47724583
Well, you could use a less inflamatory tone.

It makes you attackable if you deviate from a neutral tone of "voice".

You should know that.

>>47724634
>tells me not to insult people
>while insulting me

The hypocrisy in this post is dripping.

>>47724648
I do know that. Thing is, I find complying with this idea that I *HAVE* to kowtow and be civil to people who are pretty openly hostile to me more irritating than actually getting banned from their site. The former is even more annoying to me when it is so plainly motivated by political ideology. So yeah, I get that you're right from a strategic perspective, but there is a "fuck that and fuck you" motivation in me that makes me pretty defiant to the kind of behavior I'm responding to.

>>47724703
Then don't complain abut getting banned if you know that.

Might not seem "fair", but thats how it is.

>>47724703
The difference is, it's not worked into the terms and conditions on 4chan, shithead. YOU agreed to play by the rules when you made an account on the OPP forums, to not be a shithead. And you're being a shithead. No one to blame but yourself.

>>47723991
>>47724127
The post in question was literally this >>47717258
>It's basically SJW: the Crybullying.
And I don't mean "figuratively the same sentiment", I mean the posts were the same. Nevermind that what the poster said is factually true.

>>47724583
Oh, no wonder, it really was just you repeating your stupid saying because you felt clever, not someone copying you.

>>47724607
Motherfucker I point out flaws in the system all the Goddamned time you whiny fucker. You only give a shit so you have an excuse to shit on me.

>>47724629
I think it's dumb that the only skill that matters for your Defense is Athletics, and I think it's dumb that All Out Attacks often penalize you by 5 or more in exchange for two dice. Because of this, I choose to have Defense be the lesser of Wits or Dexterity plus the lesser of Brawl or Athletics. With a one dot Parry Merit, you can use Weaponry when you're using a weapon. People with Weapons have +1 Defense against people who don't. An All Out Attack removes your Skill to Defense (and can only be used if you have one). Special maneuvers also only remove your Skill to Defense. If your Skill to Defense is gone, you can still use the All Out Attack option or a Maneuver to go Defenseless, though you can never use the same option twice (All-Out+Maneuver, not All-Out+All-Out, and never the same maneuver twice).

See, I didn't like something about the way the game worked, so I changed it. What you're calling "fucking dumb" is the system working the way that it's intended to. If you don't like it, that is not up to the developers to fix. They do not make the game only for you.

>>47724747
You generally have waaaaay too much faith in the devs.

>>47724703
>The hypocrisy in this post is dripping.
Not even that guy but you're stage five retarded if you don't realize that the rules of posting on 4chin are slightly different.

>>47724747
>You only give a shit so you have an excuse to shit on me.
Sure thing, buddy. We'll just pretend you don't constantly throw tantrums about people daring to want the rules better and more clarified because it's something you've deemed unimportant.

>>47724720
I'm free to complain about what I want. And as it so happens, I want to complain about Beast being a game about SJW crybully struggle sessions, and point out how Onyx Path's one-sidedness is vindicating this perspective.

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>>47724747
>What you're calling "fucking dumb" is the system working the way that it's intended to.
Yeah, sounds about right desu.

>>47724703
>The hypocrisy in this post is dripping.
This is 4chan, you fucking mouthbreather. Someone telling you not to be a fucking dumbass *on a site where being a dumbass is actually against the rules instead of expected* is not hypocrisy.

>people who are pretty openly hostile
I find this funny because I actually edited my post to not be hostile. If I were being openly hostile, I'd have called you a whiny fucking manbaby who can't handle if his players like something he doesn't approve of. You're just like all the shitters who go on about how Mages don't exist in their games and they don't let players be Mages for arbitrary bullshit reasons instead of anything reasonable. Nevermind that you probably don't even run games where people would play a Beast in the first place.

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>>47724583
I just want to state for the record that I find all these threads on OP about sex brothels prostitutes naked art boobies penis vagina misogyny, and the like to be lovingly ridiculous Not just silly Not just useless loving beyond ridiculous

I appreciate there are people who don’t want to deal with these subjects in RPGs Or in real life Fine But what if I do? I’m not a loving villain because there may be a brothel in my city or a prostitute NPC or because two PC have a relationship or a race of ugly horrible monsters surprise sex women to breed chaos creatures to overthrow the world didn’t invent that one either for the record

Being psychoanalyzed as to why I put those things in my game is loving offensive I put stuff in my game because I WANT it in there you naïve pencil-dicked gently caress-tard Its not a loving mystery I Put It In There. I am not ashamed of liking naked people and sex and prostitutes in my games. It’s part of life, it comes up in all kinds of art stories movies TV and I’m not going to ban subjects in my game because a bunch of self-righteous rear end fucks on an internet forum tell me to

I am so loving tired of reading the “Why are men boobie-humping gorillas?!?!?!” bullshit I could loving gag. I am not a rapist, or a misogynist, nor a child molester, nor a violent criminal and I hardly imagine HAVING a penis somehow qualifies me for annual criminal background checks and mandatory psycho therapy sessions. gently caress you. I am quite happy with my penis and I don’t need you telling me what I can think about, write about, or put in my games.

This is for all you self-deprecating whiney near-do-wells who think it’s ok to ram your holier-than-thou delusions of grandeur up my rear end – Go gently caress yourself. You can hide behind the bullshit veneer of political correct nonsense on the Onyx Path to push your agendas but some of us will keep on loving the girl boobie sex prostitute brothel penis vagina RPG stuff until we die. Assholes.

>>47702084
OP that pic is a HORRIBLE idea.
Tattooing yourself then immediately submersing the area in water will instantly leech some of the ink out. Also, freshly open sores so any bacteria in the water can swim in. And all this is BEFORE the consideration of dropping the tattoo machine into the water and electrocuting yourself.

I'm so triggered.

>>47724787
>>47724763
>You generally have waaaaay too much faith in the devs.
"You can give yourself Steadfast and then use Steadfast!" isn't exactly Manhattan Project level shit. The devs likely seem to be giving too much faith to the players at this point.

>>47724794
I feel like you need some commas.

>>47724794
Did you just have a stroke on the keyboard?

>>47724817
Well, he is clearly a crazy hobo wizard

>>47724825
It looks like copypasta that was run through babbelfish.

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>>47724745
Nobody sane gives a fuck about EULA's. Jus' sayin'.

>>47724817
He must also be ambidextrious.... GAHHH why did I have to see this picture. You ruined my day OP.

>>47724839
Then don't come crying to us when you get banned for a rule you actively agreed to when you signed up.

>>47724818
>>47724825
I know this topic has been posted, but I want to ask what does VtR have in the way that makes it better or atleast
better to you all then its parent VtM? When VtR came on scene and took over VtM, I bought the core book, the NWOD book and even the city source book New Orleans. After reading through I like the Covinent aspect, but did not care for about 2-3 of the clans (Nos, Ven and Gangrel were ok for obvious reason) I made the efforts to do a story and my old group pretty much disbanned (never got the game off, well the first session but thats it) the books found their way on to a shelf and have lived their ever since.

So I ask what about VtR is better then VtM to those who have played both. I have just come back to VtM over the last month, and since I have a whole new group they may even be willing to try VtR.

Things I like about VtM (that I dont think VtR has)

1- Sects, from what I remember they are not in VtR (I may be off as it has been 5-6 years since Ive even opened a book)

2- More Clans, varitey in VtM, VtR has 5 clans seems less of a choice 13>5.

3- Generation, means more in VtM, VtR is only Blood pool size.

4- History, seems richer in VtM, VtR seems obscured.

>>47724783
And thus free to get banned by people who disagree and think you breka their forum rules.

I also raise an eyebrow about really wierd characters, as groups of people are represented as standard player characters that don't even make up 1 percnet of the populace.

But myeh.

>I like the 20th anniversary editions and nwod anyway, so I am free.

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>>47724858
I don't think I'm the one crying m8. Bitching, maybe, because Onyx Path is full of fags and I don't feel like giving them more money, but crying? Nah, that looks more like you.

You're on 4chan berating people for violating an EULA. Do you even know where we are?

>>47702084
There was one storyteller I knew who got sick of a few pking players in his group and told me to bring a heavy hitter to bring some protection and fair play. At first I said "NO." and braught in a homid child of gaia hippy and got killed for no reason IC in a crowd of people without even even being known as a supernatuaral or not. So I caved and warned the storyteller that my methods would be considered power gaming but the storyline would match the immense power the character will wield with do reason and the fail safe would be: Dark Fate:"Soul is called home his body crumbles to dust." at ST's discression.

And so the ancient named "Exodus Moonsilver" was created for play: an incredibly enlightened and powerful wolf from the beginning times made I made with the bygone bestiary to be one of the first Kinfolk ever recorded. I gave him Years 5 "You told eve not to eat it but she had to know everything", Treasure 5 "A ceramonial honor chamber of preserved garou pelts, Garou litany, weapons, ancient armors, Lores written on the very walls an open ceiling where luna shines to show her kindness on rare occasions, and every special oil known to shapechanger kind with the simple fact every pelt is from a child he sired that was chosen by gaia to became a garou and each one agreed to be returned to the cerimonial hall under Moonsilvers command upon death. All Pelts of True ancient tribe Get of fenris so much Fenris himself visits the chamber every 10 years and offers the ancient the privelage of mating with the fiercest ranking females of highest pedigree as the Totem is most anxious to maintain such a potent bloodline of the highest breed and in exchange he would offer favor.

>>47724787
I meant to say that the system is awful by this, not that he's right, by the way.

>>47702084
The storyteller grinned thinking it would be a great idea to educate the the garou players about their lineage and if pressed, spank Power gamers if they got too roudy but to the OOC naked eye it was just a suernatural wolf who could be taken down by aggrovated damage without soak even if unaging which is what I wanted to portray outside of good gaming to set the effect now I just needed the cause. ST awarded me additional starting points since im considered underpowered in comparison to all the other players starting the game.

I took max flaws and a merit: kinfolk. The advantages set up I chose gave it a solid chance to protect the character from almost every type of magical, discipline, gift, numina, etc attack, his speed rating allows him to act 3 times in a turn at will. Its attributes of stamina and strength are pushed well over 5 up to 8. He has armor "thick hide", terrible claws and a wicked bite. Also being 1 1/2 sizes biger than any other wolf along side kinfolk skills like soul stealing and the like to buff health levels and compliment his status as ancient kin. Unable to be harmed by Silver or die of old age due to certain advantages as explained by the very litany written on his chamber walls "Exodus has been named now and forever he will never suffer by the touch of Luna".

>>47702084
So starting the stoyteller gives me an intro explaining how the ancient can feel the pain of his children who are still alive. Thier death is your anger expressed by a very keen sensory beyond even your explinations. However you are not to allowed to act until the death of all of your children. After a few game sessions a majoriy of the powergaming characters had slaughtered almost all the standard players. Four of them just happened to be the last decendents of Exodus. And so all those murderers were marked spiritualy and could be tracked. Once the last decendent died in siberia the Ancient enacted use of his Background Rituals of 5 which just happens to be the rite to become a garou and in his storylines case it is more than justified with out wyrm taint and the boon hand me down immunity to silver into a silver immunity.

Its at this point as a full blown Garou Crinos Get of Fenris of undeniable physical stature he tasted mothers rage like a fine wine. Fenris appeared and was taken as direct totem in decloration of war with little to no effort out of favor. Other garou looked at him in awe then aided his cause. The ensuing destruction from that session on was terrifying to even myself with no remorese no forgiveness no stopping.. it was a force of nature leaving every Pker in pieces. and when it was over Dark fate kicked in and all was well.

>>47724862
It's all a matter of choice. I prefer VtR in general for a few reasons:
* I can build a world that's my own, without having to worry that potential players are going to shit themselves because I deviated from particular books and meta plotlines.
* I enjoy the archetypical clans in general. I find that I can do any, and every, concept I could do in Masquerade in Requiem, without the stupid baggage. The Clans are pared down into archetypes, which makes them easy to work a lot of concepts into rather than stereotyped stuff.

You seem to have missed the point that VtR wasn't supposed to be Masquerade 4.0 though, because it was designed with different ideas and a different mindset to be:
* A toolbox
* Full of options but no 'here is the one way'
* Designed to have a loose and unknown history and backstory to give STs and players the capability to build the world FOR THEIR GAME.
* It's not fair to either system to compare BP and Generation directly (or really, the systems as a 1-to-1 comparison). Blood Potency is the logic behind 'as a vampire ages, they get more powerful' whereas Generation was an entirely different concept about vampiric power that was separate from age (I can be a 5th Generation character and be embraced last night).
1

>>47723991

But Gamergate bashing is allowed in rpg.net and OPP forums whereas they're exactly the same type of thing as SJWs.

>>47724794
Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

>>47724939
Well, when they say "groups" can't be attacked, they really mean "my anointed speshul babby groups"

>>47724935
To be honest I really do feel like Requiem lacks a lot of substance, especially in comparison to Masquerade. Masquerade focused really well on the whole humanity/redemption/wheels-within-wheels/do we believe the myths thing, and touched on a lot of very deep, relatable human issues we have in the real world. We can play a Masquerade game and based on the built in mechanics and themes of the game be able to look at our own lives and ask the questions:

How far can we go with our attitudes and actions before they're no longer civil, and human? (Humanity and The Beast)

What does it mean to forgive others? Should you let go of grudges, or keep them for years on end? Where's the true security on trying to get on top? (Redemption, and navigating Camarilla Society)

How deep does corruption and lies go in our government and economic institutions? (Wheels within wheels)

How should we approach religion, should we believe it, what is the evidence for and against it, what does religion offer? (Redemption, and Golconda)

On the one hand I can't really see these ideas present in Requiem, which shares a lot of the same game mechanics of Humanity, The Beast, vampire Society and corruption, not to mention Religion with the Crone. On the other hand, I do agree with everyone else: Requiem offers something different, and you can't necessarily stack them up next to each other and compare them like this.

So I dunno, I imagine I'm missing something that makes Requiem as good as Masquerade, but for different reasons. While I'd say it's worse than Masquerade, it does offer a lot of freedom in areas Masquerade doesn't or is harder to get to. I guess it's the difference between WoW and Minecraft.

>>47724862
Some people got really mad at Requiem for replacing Masquerade back in 2004. Some of them read it and didn't like it because it was different from Masquerade. Some of them didn't read it and hated it anyway.

However, on its own merits, it's a fine game, and supplements have continued publication fairly consistently over the last 11 years. The second edition was released last year.

That wouldn't have happened if it was a bad game.

>>47724862
>1- Sects, from what I remember they are not in VtR (I may be off as it has been 5-6 years since Ive even opened a book)
There are five major Covenants in Requiem, and several smaller ones. There's also more to them than "The Good Guy Jackasses" and "The Bad Guy Jackasses" with "The Useless Rabble Rousers" and "Groups That Don't Matter" filling up pages.
>2- More Clans, varitey in VtM, VtR has 5 clans seems less of a choice 13>5.
Clans in Masquerade are hard and fast stereotypes, and anything you do that doesn't fit is a subversion. Clans in Requiem are archetypes, and allow for more personalization and variety. Also, Bloodlines exist. They basically allow for all the shenanigans of Clan/Bloodline in Masquerade.
>3- Generation, means more in VtM, VtR is only Blood pool size.
Blood Potency is literally the potency of your Blood, and means more than just a bonus to energy points. In fact, I'd argue that Blood Potency means more than Generation, which is an unchanging part of your character and therefore means a lot less.
>4- History, seems richer in VtM, VtR seems obscured.
Obscured doesn't mean there's no history. There's plenty.

>>47724884
Why should the percentage of the population they represent matter? None of the population is wizards, if we want to use that old argument. There's like one character that uses nonstandard pronouns, and they're literally a creepy monster. They're probably made of spiders or something. There's maybe two gay characters in the book at most. That's far from "literally everyone is a tranny".

>>47724783
You're free to be an idiot, so long as you follow the rules of the forum. I'm also free to point out that saying stupid things is childish. I even had to edit my post not to call you stupid, since that would be against the ruurs.

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>>47724977
>However, on its own merits
>merits

>>47724889
>You're on 4chan berating people for violating an EULA. Do you even know where we are?
A site where calling you a fucking idiot doesn't violate the EULA

>>47724862
Try out Requiem 2e.
Also, "disbanded"

>>47724977
>The second edition was released last year.
Try three years ago.

>>47724999
Undead Menses
I don't even mind it but I know it triggers people

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>>47724991
>You're free to be an idiot, so long as you follow the rules of the forum. I'm also free to point out that saying stupid things is childish. I even had to edit my post not to call you stupid, since that would be against the ruurs.

>caring about the rules on a forum

Christ, m8, just accept that you'll get banned for speaking your mind. Don't be such a fucking pussy about it.

>>47725011
Except it does. lol

>3. You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: Trolls, flames, racism, off-topic replies, uncalled for catchphrases, macro image replies, indecipherable text (example: "lol u tk him 2da bar|?"), anthropomorphic ("furry") or grotesque ("guro") images, post number GETs ("dubs"), or loli/shota pornography.

So now that you've been made privvy to the EULA of 4chan, you can take this as your warning. No more "flaming."

However, since I don't give a shit about EULA's, I can continue to call you a fucking faggot homo retard shithead without rendering myself a hypocrite.

>>47724958
And that's fine. I find that all of those things can come up in Requiem; however, the impetus is more on the Storyteller to build the world. I think that's where you're coming up with 'less substance,' because... well, there is, as far as 'here is the predetermined of how things are'. There's not 'And here's how the Camarilla works from the Inner Council through the Justicariate down to the Princes on their thrones'. It has a much more local focus and more impetus on the ST to build the world, but all of those things can be done. There's just not a treatise about them in the immediate books.

When you get into the Covenants, and read their huge splatbooks though? You get a lot more of that substance, because the core book is meant to be the baseline and everything else expanded upon.

For example, the Invictus book details the huge machinations of the feudal system that the Invictus have brought into the modern era, with the 'wheels within wheels,' levels of subterfuge and the codified hiearchy, the ancient grudges from centuries past as the descendants and families of those Kindred hold onto those grudges; while the Crone goes into the pagan blood-worshiping and cult-like things you might expect from, say, the Setites of Masquerade.

The substance is there (and to be fair, the Masquerade core is low on that substance too). You just have a little more work putting it all together.

While you guys are arguing over shit, 2 questions about Demon.

1. Are Partial Transformations reflexive like full transformations?

2. Is the ability to spawn explosives with Eliminator Cannon an instant or reflexive action?

>>47724991
It is just that i noticed more turning up, as in a trend.

I Its not about gay people, I am just able to acknowledge that most of the populace are cis heteros.

>What if I told you, I was the gay.

>>47724958
While many are prone to waxing hyperbolic about the matter of course I have long felt that VtR in particular is indeed inferior to VtM such that I will not play it.

Not simply for flavor. While I do appreciate certain bits of mechanical streamlining I still feel this is outweighed the aggressive weakening of characters. Perhaps its something I've just missed but I've always felt that it was hard to make characters in nWoD that can deliver on what they are actually good at. Which I'm sure makes me sound all powergamer but the thing that consciously grinds at me most is that by the time I built a character competent at one thing I had very little left to round them out with. Which really cuts into the sort of stories I could tell because I don't like running on pure fluff I cant back up

Then of course there is the much talked about inferiority as a fulfilling setting. I have always found VtR bland and unfulfilling as a setting. Its the classic trap of trying to be "inclusive" where you don't give anyone any real sense of identity to hold on to. And frankly if people weren't looking for some help with imagining that identity they wouldn't be buying roleplaying games, or pretty much any entertainment. What you're selling is all that conceptual heavy lifting.

Furthermore the lack of overarching structure with some deep archetypal significance like the Caine mythology shrinks the scope of your world. I never got a sense of why vampires in VtR mattered in the grand scheme of things. Something perhaps particularly bad with still existing in the shadows of the "real world" with lots of much bigger affairs going on. I rarely want to play say a Gehenna chronicle, but that the potential for that is out there helps the more intimate affairs stand out more.

And you could always ignore the setting elements if you really wanted to. Or more likely they're just the background flavor to your actual story but don't actually matter.

That or you're just fucking retarded

>>47725085
>hyperbolic

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperbolic_Time_Chamber

?

>>47725048
>>47725060
Old WoD catered to a specific group both visually in its art, setting, and rules. And it had a great deal of success.

Nwod wanted to do the same for a different group who have grown up in a different era.

So it's polarizing for old farts like me. We're used to the 90s Gothic everything is dark. And that's why a lot of them hate it.

Personally I like the newer system.

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>>47723991
>>47724127
>>47724583
Okay, so everyone that is saying "they are just different" is right, but I'll pass on my personal take on that difference.

Mechanics aside, here is the major difference:

Masquerade has the angsty vampires of the Anne Rice era. It's a political game, a game of dealing with being a human forced to do inhuman things THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO RELISH. You maintain a veneer of civilization because everyone is afraid of what would happen if it were ripped away, and we don't talk much about that to maintain the illusion of strength.

Requiem is a vampire game of the 21st century. You aren't carrying a Beast, you ARE the Beast. You're just unchained. The only politics are the politics of gang warfare. You don't fear what you've become, you explore it.

Different people are interested in different things. Sounds like your group is more like me, and prefers Masquerade.

The other details (metaplot, mechanics, balance, etc) pale in comparison to the above difference.

FWIW, I'm currently running a tabletop Masquerade game using the LARP mechanics (See Vampire: The Masquerade by By Night Studios, who made it under license like Onyx Path does their stuff). Setting I love, cleaner/more simple mechanics.

>>47725085
As a fan of both, I can respect the way you presented your opinion here. You didn't go all 'they changed it, now it sucks' without your reasoning.

My personal experience with the anti-NWoD people back when it first came out was all 'they changed it, now it sucks'. And when the reasons came up, they were typically 'this element that I always play that is INTRINSIC TO MASQUERADE is gone' like a specific Clan (OH GOD THE FUCKING MISSING MALKAVIANS) without any well-thought and personally-reasoned substance about the game itself.