Pathfinder General /pfg/

Last thread Recap:
>SHITPOSTER arguing over shield paladins (he won)
>DSP got caught shilling without their trips on, admitted it, and we forgave them
>/pol/izen tried to argue about Erastil(again). No one falls for it.

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I was going to wait until the weekend, since I'm still missing a few things but decided screw it. I'm impatient and want to get verbally abused for poor design decisions. It's missing a few pieces, needs heavy polishing, and I need to go review a few of the main features, but I might as well chuck it out there.

For your viewing displeasure, the Stregone, an attempt to make the Vigilante Warlock a separate class.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GVTXsAAdkxpLjQFfvYzuME3lVyuhAU2chxXrK46vlbA/edit?usp=sharing

I got frustrated trying to juggle two sets of talents, so I just smashed everything into a single set of them and made one of the talents be "gain two vigilante social talents".

>>47682848
buildposter shill, go away

>>47682848

Remember, folks: winners use Shield Brace.

>>47682848
>(he won)

In your dreams you won, Shitposter. Oh, and you forget to type your name, faggot.

>>47682848
Put your name back on so I don't have to see your posts.

>>47682848
>(he won)
>DSP shills
>Anon answers Erastil question and SJWs go up in flames
You're kinda retarded, aintcha?

>>47682848
Really, you lying sack of shit? Did you read Forrest's post?
>>47682298
She said that she posts without a trip BECAUSE THERE'S NO NEED TO ALWAYS HAVE A TRIP. There's no shilling because it's related to DSP; if they were shilling of course they'd put their trips on, so that people can see "oh hey, there's the developer".

Do you want to see how wrong you are? Go onto IRC, type in #pfg, and look at how many people are going to tell you straight-up that you're wrong. Go fuck yourself.

>>47682848
>DSP got caught shilling without their trips on, admitted it, and we forgave them
This didn't actually happen

>>47682848
Nobody will ever believe you.

Still looking for shield advice for my antipaladin.

I may be able to fit in Shield Focus as a feat, maybe around level 5?

What's this Defensive Expertise feat I'm hearing about? 3pp is allowed on case by case basis.

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Thread already in flames

>>47682953
You might have to get rid of the Damnation feats you want until later on in your career unfortunately. Defensive Expertise is the following, from Path of War 1:

>DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE (Combat)
>You are able to use your defenses to greater effect.
>Prerequisites: Shield Focus, shield proficiency, base attack bonus +1
>Benefit: Your shield bonus to armor class applies against touch attacks. Additionally, you may add the enhancement bonus of your shield (if any) as a competence bonus to Reflex saves.

>>47682953
>What's this Defensive Expertise feat I'm hearing about?

DSP PoW feat.

>Defensive Expertise (Combat)
>You are able to use your defenses to greater effect.

>Prerequisite(s): Shield Focus, shield proficiency, base attack bonus +1

>Benefit(s): Your shield bonus to armor class applies against touch attacks. Additionally, you may add the enhancement bonus of your shield (if any) as a competence bonus to Reflex saves.

https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Defensive-Expertise-Combat-

>>47682969
Blame Buildposter

>>47682989
I always do.

>>47682983
Good feat, that. Gives a LOT, but that's because by comparison most shield feats tell you to go fuck yourself and grab a two-hander.

Basically it means you get to hide behind your shield when dragonbreath (about fucking time) and the shield can now work on fucking bullets, which were literally ignoring it until then.

I'm a gunslinger, this fucks with me, and I STILL approve massively of defensive expertise.

Tell me about your first pathfinder characters /pfg/!

>>47682995
I want you to delete it because that image looks awful. Did you save it without examining more closely or do you not care that it is in so sub-par a condition?

>>47683009
my first pathfinder - not 3.5 - character was a dwarven aegis/marksman(sniper) with a double-pistol and a dorn-durgar.

not very optimized, but he did okay.

>>47683009
A paladin who was completely oblivious to the fact he was really racist towards non humans who got beat up by the half orc in the party. The paladin then died for him after they set a tower on fire with a dragon at the top from Reign of Winter.

>>47683009
Penny Ann Dreadful was a 12-year old Human Witch (Gravewalker archetype). Her goal in life was to literally make friends. When she used Animate Dead each skeleton she raised got his own little name. I got to play her in two sessions before the campaign collapsed under the bloat of having somewhere around 8-9 players. Seriously DM, what were you thinking?

>>47683039
Was dying for him intentional, or was he still holding a grudge and made damn sure?

>>47683017
I do it to annoy you.
>>47683009
Rogue catboy. Put all his money into upgrading his jacket. By the end of the campaign, that jacket had it's own page of things it could do.

Why are surprised that DSP post without a trip, Gareth already said who tends to post anonymously and why a long, long time ago.

>>47683009
Gnome Prankster Bard, the wife of the character i was then playing in my main RL game. PbP game, died real fast.

>>47683052
He died so that the half orc and the rest of the party could escape. He also murdered Greta.

>>47683055
/pfg/ posters are retarded, fetish-loving waifu fags, only about half of whom even read the damn rules.

>>47683017
Scythe Wielding Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager). Tons of damage and fun.

>>47683009
It was a stalker privateer with fool's errand style.

>>47683055
The trump supporters are also very surprised that we'd think what he said was racist too.

>>47683009
A drow sorceress with celestial bloodline. She was the scion of a minor noble house(though not using drow noble stats, obviously).

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I cannot believe how shit these threads have been lately.

Is there a way to stack natural attacks together? I made a level fifteen kobold barbarian able to deal up to five natural attacks on a pounce, cause blindness, nausea, CON damage, a guaranteed crit and acid damage with certain attacks.
With rage and power attack. Mind you, might be flubbing the bonus damage, can't remember the exact amounts.
>bite attack: 1d6+14+once a day 1d6 acid+1 acid, cause nausea due to Noxious bite. Improved natural attacks as well.
>Beast Totem: Claw: 2 1d6+8
>Helm of the Mammoth lord: Gore: 1d6+14, when used as a charge automatically crit threatens, deals an extra 1d4 Con damage, as well as cause a fort roll or be blind forever.
>tail slap: 1d6+8, can equip tail weapon.

Is there a way to put all of that together into one hot mess?

>>47683086
But we're online, I can't tell if it's one or two people blinded by their bias or a whole crowd. Those that are mad are more likely to go out of their way to post from multiple IPs

>>47683099
As has been stated before, we've got people coming in and shitposting constantly. Nobody knows who's doing it, but someone is likely paying people, just like how /pol/ has paid shills and shit.

Do you think Starfinder will be a success or a flop?

>>47683160
I doubt people are actually being paid to come in and shitpost
>>47683173
mediocre on all fronts

>>47683009
A Fetchling Summoner with a pet cheshire cat. Was the richfag son of a merchant house on the plane of shadow.

>>47683173
Success solely because of marketing, just like Pathfinder.

>>47683173
Paizo is only making mediocre stuff for a while, so... I hope it will flop. Flop HARD.

>>47683173
If it has anything in common with the technology guide it deserves to fail harder than it will.

>>47683173
success yes
flop, also yes.
it'll sell.
it won't be good.
but it'll sell.

And the best classes in it will be regular PF casters, guaranteed.

>>47683175
If it's happening on american politics with Hilary paying hundreds of indians to shitpost and shill for her, then it can happen here, on a completely anonymous board.

>>47682989
>>47682983

So.. it's just shield bonus to touch... that doesn't seem that big of a deal though? Is going from 12 Touch to 15 touch really gonna change anything? It's still piss easy to hit.

>>47676778
Okay so. Firstly.

>Short Range
You can get the Range-boosting talents. They don't cost spell points to use.

>Shit damage
It actually stands above both in damage, as far as I can tell. I mean, 1), Vig Warlock's damage is shite. Definite fact.

Advantages it has over the Blaster though, is that it can twf with minimal penalties, whereas the Blaster can't at all. It can still get Enhancement bonuses via a Destructive Focus weapon.

Plus you can still use things like Deadly Aim, and because it's all touch-attacks, you're probably not gonna miss anyway.

Am I missing anything?

>>47683160
DSP is almost universally accepted in /pfg/ and their devs are generally well-received, so I don't see them bothering with shills. Paizo is almost universally reviled so if they do have shills here, those shills aren't doing very good job. And I don't see them wanting to advertise on 4chan of all places. That only leaves DDS, since other 3pp just isn't talked about. And as much as I'd like to think that SoP popularity here is due to shills, I don't really think it's very likely.

A wizard appears before and gives you the following offer these changes over the next 5 years
>Paizo sees the light and makes a new book
>It's the Codex of Conflict after Starfinder drops
>Official Initiation system, it's fun to play and more balanced than PoW ever was.
>Afterwords they make a new book with a balanced point based, spell casting system similar to Psionics. This book retcons the Wizard/Sorc spell list and merges them into one class and is now mandatory for PFS.
>Going forward, playtests will be more open.
>over the course of the next 5 years the quality of the game increases substantially.
>If and only If
>You toss Bulmahn's salad.[/spoiled]
Would you?

>>47683230
Honestly, it's bad, but in comparison with the Paizo feats, it's good.

>>47683260
Nah man, I'm talking shills against DSP and 3pp stuff. Paizo knows we're a fairly large community for them, and that we dislike them heavily. They know /pfg/ spreads that around, and they want it to stop, so they come here to attack the 'source' of it.

Too bad the source is them being bad.

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>>47683261
>Stalk Bulmahn
>Wait until he is going to eat a salad
>Throw it over my shoulder

THE CONTRACT IS COMPLETE.

>>47683261
I'd rather see Paizo crash and burn.

>>47683230
>>47683264
It also adds the shields enhancement bonus to Reflex saves. Not exactly gold star, but if it were a Paizo feat that would be broken into two more feats, require Combat Reflexes, and the bonus to Ref. saves would be a Resistance bonus.

>>47683261
Please, let Paizo die and another publisher to fix this goddamn mess of system.

>>47683230
Well the full bonus applies to touch, and if you`re low reflex, well, you`re not low reflex anymore if you enchant your shield.

My character has a +4 heavy shield; that`s 6 he wouldn`t normally have on his touch-AC (our own sorc would need 11s to hit with his rays instead of 5s), and makes his reflex no longer autofail.

>>47682989
>Blame Buildposter
No. I blame him too, but I blame the rest of you retards equally for responding. You're adults, not children or mindless drones. Nothing is forcing you to answer him; you're doing it of your own free will even though you know you shouldn't. Proprotionally, the BUILDPOSTER haters are as bad as he is, and there's more of you fags so you're worse overall. It's 2hufag all over again.

What I'm saying is that both lots of you should kill yourselves.

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So /pfg/, what's the most mechanically retarded character you've ever seen that, by all rights, should have been dead on arrival, but still somehow managed to pull through or even did well?

>>47683358
Fuck off, retard. What you will gonna do about the replies? Scream to your mother from your basement?

Shut off.

>>47683290
At least one mod on their forum knows of us, and obviously there are people that post on both forums. But what benefit is there for Paizo to send shills to one general on 4chan, it isn't like we have hundreds of unique IPs per thread. Same with DSP.

I'm just not convinced that anyone is paying anyone. Just people who are still on the PoW honeymoon who haven't experienced the issues, and people who swear by 1pp.

>>47683363
A sword and board paladin. Not even joking, last thread aside, I've seen one do well. Granted it required Mythic Vital Strike.

>>47683382
Okay, are you legitimately medically autistic or Brazilian or something? Because right now you seem like you are.

>>47683383
Who said we haven`t experienced issues?
Have you not seen the scathing diatribes about various classes, archetypes, initiator disciplines and so on?

>>47683383
>Haven't experienced issues
Guy who's been violently campaigning to see Steelforge reviewed and updated and actually have the cool shit that it got from Forgeworks actually ported properly, and for the stuff it missed to get fixed here.

PoW is overall good, but it damn well needs work, and we've been trying to give feedback.

Here's one of the biggest bits of feedback we can give: Fire Sslarn.

>>47683333
It'd be a +7 bonus to Touch AC since Shield Focus grants a +1 to the selected shield. Either way the feat is a bit niche, but does a reasonable job building up otherwise difficult-to-raise defenses. I'd say it's at least decent in that regard.

>>47683383
I'm with ya'. I seriously don't think money is changing hands, rather it's just a bunch of jackasses on both sides of the fence getting a little too passionate. I mean, it's the internet; these things are going to happen. But these threads have been less of a dumpster fire with a half-eaten hot dog lately and just a dumpster fire.

What's a good VMC for a summoner?

>>47683439
Didn't they pass Arcforge to another publisher?

Anyway, Ssalarn is okay, he just has a fucked up way of responding to feedback where he tends to sit on anything, even a "I heard you and we're tweaking it" until he's had time to test it obsessively.

End result is it looks like he's sitting on his thumbs until he finally gets his shit together.

>>47683383
>haven't experienced the issues
1. Fire Ssalarn
2. Nerf zealot
3. Nerf psionics harder (no reformation/astral seed bullshit)
4. Nerf low-level damage
5. Nerf cryptic

>>47683439
Ssalarn isn't even part of PoW.

>>47683446
At least one of the Devs expressed a desire that people would stop asking them about PoW. That they wanted to be asked about things like Psionics or anything else that wasn't PoW because they're fucking sick of it.

>>47683468
>Nerf Cryptic

But... Cryptic doesn't even do anything.

>>47683489
My bad, meant buff.

>>47683468
>removing psychic reformation

Nah, psychic reformation is fine. If the game's rebuilding rules weren't so shit it wouldn't be needed.

>>47683466
Arcforge, not Forgeworks/Steelforge.

>>47683508
>Fine

How are the game's rebuilding rules shit?

>>47683468
Nerf everything
Fire everyone
Give fighters something to do outside of combat

>>47683526
Psychic Reformation is great because it gives you a rules-legal way to rebuild your character when you need to or want to without the DM being able to shut you down without banning it.

Personally when I DM I let people just rebuild as they want, but I know a lot of groups don't do that.

PF's retraining rules are needlessly restrictive and time-consuming in some cases, and are broken in others (feat retraining being the Dark Chaos Shuffle, for example).

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>>47683484
I wouldn't necessarily say they're sick of PoW discussion (because that information can be handy), rather DSP has other material in playtest and that hasn't been getting nearly as much attention as it needs. I can understand their disdain because constant PoW discussion/arguments tend to overshadow literally everything else they have in the works, and things in playtest can't be fixed and properly tuned if nothing is brought to attention.

>>47683525
Yeah, I know. Ssalarn is the guy in charge of Arcforge, which is why I was responding to that chunk of things.

Anyways Psybomb is working on the Forgeworks part of Steelforge, and it's towards the back of Steelforge's release schedule explicitly so it has more time to bake from what I recall.

>>47683189
Pathfinder was a success because of 3.5 and a bad 4.Edition.

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>>47682762
You know, I just realized who Elsbeth reminds me of.
It's probably the hair.

>>47683465
So, any ideas?

>>47683526
Cost scales with your level, irrelevant of what you're actually retraining. Time spent is infeasible for lots of adventures. Extremely verbose, but very limiting on what you can actually retrain.

>>47683574
....what type of summoner?

>>47683423
>>47683439
>>47683468

Yeah, that was a dumb way to put it. I've seen the discussions, what I was trying to get across that some people push PoW as the perfect solution to martials, a build, etc. That's the impression they give me, anyway.

>>47683558
If they don't want you rebuilding your character, they're going to ban it anyway.

"Hey DM, can I rebuild my character once we've finished this thing?" Is a lot different to "Hey, DM, I'm rebuilding my character right here in the middle of this dungeon to respond to this specific problem we have right now"

>>47683009

Lords of the Night Vampire Steelfist Commando Warlord using Broken Blade, Mithral Current, Veiled Moon and Riven Hourglass.

He is a nobleman from Ustalav and one if the Whispering Tyrant's former lieutenants during the Shining Crusade. Eventually he betrayed the tyrant and aided the Knights of Ozem, but his reward for treachery was them burning his castle down and slaying his still loyal living subjects. He entered a deep torpor, rather then perish from the flames, and awakened centuries later. Realizing that his enemies were dead and his house was long forgotten he is taken to going on adventures and enjoying his new lease on unlife in Varisia.

Currently he is part of a curse of the Crimson Throne adventure.

I am enjoying him immensely.

>>47683581
I'm really heavy on skills because that's what our party needs. My eidolon is bipedal and a skill monkey.

>>47683620
Then spend your feats on things other than VMC. most of them are ether munchkin bullshit or just normal bullshit.

>>47683582
People push it a lot, yeah, but a lot of the reason for that is because Paizo just... hasn't made good content for Martials. It hasn't made it OR ported it, and at least PoW has kinda tried. It's fucked up a few times, yeah, but it made an attempt, and the attempt is workable.

>>47683261

>point based

No thanks now you just make balance even more fucked up like an exalted and other shitty point buy games.

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>>47683009
Paladin of Shelyn.

Played him like a 50s movie heart-throb. He was Team Dad, which would have been easier if the team wasn't a complete clusterfuck aside from Helen (a minor clusterfuck because drow sorceresses, man) and like one other competent PC.

Game was fun, but fell apart mostly thanks to one asshole cheesing the magic item rules and a DM who was a decent storyteller but not a very good encounter builder getting frustrated.

>>47683647
They haven't?

I'm a little new to pathfinder, but it seems that warrior dudes do just fine in fights.

>>47683009
Half Orc paladin with 20 charisma.
His father was an Orc who converted to the worship of St Cuthbert, his Mother was a whore.
He chose to follow Heironeous when his father was executed for a crime he didn't commit. (we were using 3.5 gods)
Rather than force his standards on others he saw his duty as following the oath conscientiously and with purpose, that others might follow his example.
Heironeous was the best God for a paladin. An article in Dragon stated that a paladin of Heironius' first duty was to Heironius himself, not temporal earthly authorities. Secondly he had a duty to the people, meaning he could oppose worldly corruption of authority. Third was his duty to a lady.
This particular paladin met a kyton and had a bit of a spark there as they were both honor and duty bound to serve otherworldly forces. He wound up beating her in a duel and she left peacefully. Game ended before that could develop further.

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Hi guys I'm not DSP. On the internet know one knows you're a shill.

Oh no you caught me. I am the shill. And I'll continue to post shills until you quote this post and respond "anyone can post any claims of anything" or that "the very person claiming DSP is shilling could have been the one posting the response to start trouble in the first place".

Pic related is me reading this thread.

>>47683562
This is correct. Forgeworks material has a while to go before publication. I'm looking through individual items as time and space allow, such as the Transferrance Vellum in the first release. Full nonmagical item enhancement system is currently slated for the fourth release if all goes well.

>>47683687
In fights, with very specific combat styles, yes.

Outside of fights, no, not really. A baseline fighter basically cannot do anything if it isn't direct combat, and stuff like TWF/Shields/Crossbows/Guns/throwing/slings/one-handing a single weapon as a combat style is just not worthwhile at all. TWF suffers from extreme problems in movement and damage output until it gets higher level, the rest of them lack good support or items and are VASTLY outclassed by Paizo's pet style which is archery.

They ALL still suffer the same problem that you can basically take any caster class, stick archery feats on it, and just be outright better than the fightery classes with just that.

>>47683465
I like bard personally for a general summoner, or barbarian for synth.

>>47683696
>shitposting
We get it. Shutup.

But for realz last thread was sketchy as hell.
>well written paragraph posts, then they stopped and there were well written paragraph posts from DSP
>one sentence shitposting insults thrown everywhere

I'm reading over it again and I'm beginning to think they were actually shilling without their name. It's not the first time "go away shill" "not being paid!" "hey its me with a trip from DSP totally not the same guy as before" has happened in the past few months.

News flash if you use passive or and you do not alter low challenge rating enemies or higher challenge rating enemies in response to this then you are a retard. The same goes for trying to make a challenging encounter with you allow tier 1 classes.

And of course there is the issue that challenge rating itself is arbitrary and most of the entries they made suck shit. Couple that with the fact that most people running games don't know how to make a good challenging encounter and of course you have Everyone crying like fucking children.

>>47683363
A tristalt Chained Monk/Kineticist/Swashbuckler taking the leaf element and using the Chakra monk archetype. Somehow managed to survive way more encounters than he ever should have with that build and was actually helpful most of the time.

>>47683687
Martials tend to do fine in combat. They just can't do anything outside of combat.

For some people this isnt' a problem because they want WoW but with friends and beer in a basement. For others it's a huge problem.

>>47683720
Also this. 80% of the ways you can build a character are just incredibly terrible. Two weapon fighting is never worth it. Guns are intentionally useless. THrowing is a trap as well.

Slings are fine (cheap weapon that lets you get STR to ranged damage for short range)
Shields are fine (read previous thread)

>>47683798

>dancing shields are fine

Ftfy

>>47683751
Lurker here, can everyone just shut the hell up about whether DSP shills or not? On fucking pfg
Where we have DSP content in the fucking trove.
Jesus shit, even if you prove that they're convincing people to use their content they aren't making that much off of doing so here.

>>47683798
Shields are not fine. Shields are, under a very specific build with a specific class, against a single enemy at a time, 'okay'. That's all they are. Shields can be kiiiinda okay in general if you get to high level and do some sort of shield-bash build, but even then, you're investing a LOT into it to not get that much out of it, and you'd be better off doing other stuff.

And slings are okay for a backup, but a person using a sling as a main weapon just doesn't really work well.

>>47683825

It's very funny that they assume these guys actually have money to pay anyone anything with. I would be surprised if their own writers actually get paid anything but slave wages at best.

>>47683817
Actually no. Move action to start, meaning you don't get a charge off in the first round of combat. IF they weren't a move action to activate they would be amazing.

>>47683829

I like how you could play an archer fighter or paladin with a dancing shields and be better at what he is suggesting.

>>47683835
As someone who was gonna potentially work with DSP before life kinda went all maximum FUCK and threw me for a loop, DSP doesn't pay much. It's more or less, and this is in their own words, beer money. They do it out of a love of the game, and because people want it.

>>47683835
Well they all have other jobs, don't they? This is just something they do on the side.

>>47683869

I would hope so. I probably make more than all of them combined in terms of what they get paid for writing and I don't exactly have a high-paying white collar job.

>>47683825
Dude, we don't care. It is just annoying as hell. It seems like every time someone asks about a build or item someone makes comment about how DSP has it and it's better there.

>>47683835
>>47683854
No one thinks they are shilling for money. They are just posting without their trip because they care and want people to enjoy their stuff.

>>47683835
Pennies per fucking word. They make goddamn pennies per word and these assholes think they'd be motivated to both deal with all the bullshit here and to gaslight people into thinking that DSP is the norm by samefagging. Why?

People post about PoW the same reason people posted about ToB on 3.5 character building communities, because it's easier to build well tuned characters with the content.

>>47683835
Something like two and a half cents a word

I guess if 4chan shilling counts you could make ten bucks

>>47683892
To be fair, anon, usually DSP does have it, and it is better there.

That's kind of one of DSP's things, is finding options that need a push and giving it.

>>47683892

The nation preface that they're not open to using third-party material when asking for advice. It really is that simple. If the following poster still suggest third-party material then that is their fault for not reading the post properly.

I know this is 4chan where its maximum shitposting all the time but we can at least adhere somewhat too a loose etiquette, right?

>>47683920
Bitch how about if they don't mention third party content then we assume it's not? Because that is safe assumption.

How many times is the first reply a just a post saying the warder can do it better? Literally hundreds. It's not helpful and it's annoying as hell.

>>47683798
>THrowing is a trap as well.
I made a Beastmass entry which could OHKO Pit Fiends with Vital Strike Throws.

>>47683987
No you didn't

>>47683947
The OP used to say, "If you're looking for advice, mention if 3pp is available," or something like that. I saw people doing exactly that, so I think it was working and we should bring it back.

>>47683987
And Named Bullet Disintegrate exists as well.

Did it work as an actual character concept from level 1?

>>47683999
Except yes I did.

>>47684012
No idea, I built it ad lvl 20 right away.

>>47684021
Show your work.

>>47684021
Prove it faggot

>>47684032
Sure.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbrv&page=11?Beastmass-A-challenge-to-Master-MinMaxers#511

>>47684037
>faggot
But I sexually identify as an attack helicopter, anon.

>>47684053
>depends on fighter capstone and crits
There we go.

If you had a good throwing build for level 12 I would be interested, but level 20 is just lala-land.

>>47684053
My damage calculations are slightly off there, by the way.
Non-crit damage should be 2 higher, while crit damage should be 8 higher.

>>47684091
It still OHKO'ed Pit Fiend. :^)

>>47684091
>If you had a good throwing build for level 12 I would be interested, but level 20 is just lala-land.

Top lel.

>>47684053
>20th level build relying on capstones

I mean, technically you aren't lying, but it's still a level 20 build that can BARELY manage to one round a Pit Fiend.

My PC is about to have a bit of free time on account of him needing to go do some shopping/crafting for a day and I may as well spend some of the nonproductive hours improving my relationships with my former enemy NPCs whom I managed to turn friendly or at the very least neutral.

The hikkomori Lich will probably be easiest as all I have to do is give him my old undead. But I'm more interested in buttering up a fairly high rank Succubus in hopes of getting her to hook me up with more contacts and maybe even put in a good word for me the next time she communes with Nocticula.

Anyway, what are some good ways to show a Succubus a good time without actually doing her? Take note that she's already quite friendly with me because I resurrected her daughters after a small misunderstanding.

A trip to Cheliax is my current plan so I can also do my shopping while wining and dining her, but any other place with decent shops that a succubus might enjoy would be appreciated.

>>47684105
Not saying it didn't. Just saying that it's isn't useful for playing pathfinder.

Level 20 stuff is just a mental exercise. At level 13 a wizard just walks off screen for a month and comes back with 25 half-level clones, who all probably have fireball. "Optimizing" after that point is just stupid because everyone is playing some kind of house-ruled game that doesn't' really follow pathfinder rules anymore.

>>47684136
...I can't tell if this is just fetish bait or if it is an actual game.

>>47683947

Onus is on the one asking questions to clarify their criteria. Stop being such a little faggot.

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449KB, 500x301px

>>47684091
>>47684128
>he says he built it at level 20
>immediately shit on it for being a level 20 build

Are you guys retarded or something?

>>47684157
I know.
Tbqh, I made that thing simply because I hate Fighters and felt somewhat masochistic that day.

>>47684177

Well, it IS buildposter...

>>47683703
I had... words for you. I placed them on the doc comments as well since we'd both forget otherwise. Well I would

Now if we can just GET those Heavy Weapons from Ssalarn so that we can actually TEST his slot system, rather than him try to adjust the crap out of it when the weapons made for it don't even exist yet...

>>47684177
>>he says he built it at level 20
She, actually.

>>47684177
I was commenting on how throwing sucks in pathfinder. SOmeone said it doesn't so I said prove it. They posted a level 20 build.

Throwing still sucks in pathfinder.

>>47684193
Do you know how you would build something that throws things at a lower level? You obviously grasp the mechanics very well. I have never built a thrower and I'm worried that my opinion may be unsupported.

>>47684157
>Fetish bait
The intent is to make a Succubus happy while avoiding intercourse. I'm pretty sure appealing to their other hedonistic desires doesnt count as fetish bait.

>>47684216
>Do you know how you would build something that throws things at a lower level? You obviously grasp the mechanics very well. I have never built a thrower and I'm worried that my opinion may be unsupported.

If I felt masochistic? Same Learned Duelist/Mutation Warrior dual archetype and enjoy the damage from Trained Throw and huge STR score.
If I wanted to actually be effective at it? Barbarian and hurl all the things.

>>47684165
No you faggot that is what we have now and the end result is that anyone who is new or doesn't hang out here constantly ends up getting an incredibly unhelpful and annoying DSP suggestion as the first reply to any question.

It needs to change.

>>47683817
cats too.

>>47684216
>>47684244
Heck, you can build an effective Barbarian who hurls random rocks picked up from the ground.
Barbarian makes everything good.

And if 3pp is allowed, I'd just go all PoW on that shit.

>>47684244
>Barbarian and hurl all the things.
This might actually be not shit. I must investigate.

>>47684280
See this as a starting point:
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE45A5E31B322825!10419&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno

>>47684280
>>47684289
Just note that it's a deliberately self-gimping build which uses only the commonest rocks possible instead of actual weapons.
It's possible to improve on it, easily.

>>47684136
Cheliax with a succubus is probably a bad idea. LE devil city, CE demon lady... planar pride can get damn ugly. And violent. PF may not have a Blood War but the infernal sorts still aren't friendly to abyssals.

Try taking her someplace s bit more relaxed. Even away from the city, most succubi do enjoy beautiful things, especially those of a lewd or heretical nature. Maybe commision a painter or poet to create something along those lines. Say, Iomedae playing a trumpet with the wrong pair of lips? Or a ribald limerick about Ragathiel?

>>47684105
Sort of. If it can get within throwing range (with a 40 foot range increment- maximum range of 200 feet) it has a 90% chance to hit a naked (none of their 134,000 GP of treasure and equipment spent on anything), not invisible pit fiend at 40 feet. That's not super impressive, especially since the pit fiend can leave whenever it wants, summon CR 19 backup, and has a 20% to 25% chance to kill Railgun on any of its standard actions, also naked. If his alpha strike fails he's kinda fucked too, since he's reliant on popping a Cyclops Helm to achieve anything of value.

>>47684245

Put it in the op then.

You are just asahurt about DSP like every other Paizo drone that shit up this general.

Do any full-BAB classes have archetypes that give them Sneak Attack? Slayer's progression is so bad but I want to do roguey things without waiting 200 years to qualify for fun stuff like Shatter Defenses.

>>47684365
>shatter defenses
There's no point, the archetypes that make fear actually good on a martial all belong to the rogue anyway. See if you can convince the DM to let you trade 3 skillpoints/level for full BAB.

>>47684343
How exactly can his alpha strike fail?
It's automatically a nat 20 and automatically confirms. Damage is also static due to being maximised.
Not a single roll is involved in the process.

Looking to play a werebat primal disciple barb. Want to end up taking flyby and that other monster feats that lets you fly gud are they worthwhile feats to take?

Are these enough skills to be relevant at level 1?

For reference my skills are:
+4 to all knowledge skills (can make untrained) (+6 to History/Local)
+2 all profession skills (can make untrained)
+11 Disguise
+9 Bluff
+11 Perform
+7 Craft Alchemy
+9 Spellcraft

The Eidolon's Skills Are:
+13 Stealth
+13 Escape Artist
+13 Disable Device
+5 Sleight of Hand

>>47684440
It also uses a Cyclops Helm which is kind of a bullshit item.

>>47684440
>>47684343
Moreover, Railgun's knife is Seeking (meaning no miss chances) and he has Eyes of the Dragon for Blindsight (meaning no invisibility).

>>47684455
Half the Wizard spell list is at least as bullshit or even more bullshit.

>>47684480

Pff retard it's totally fine, a sword and board paladin is just as useful and vital in a fight as any spell in their list.

>>47684440
The only pit fiend (and most of the other monsters listed, for that matter) that actually matches the test conditions is one that just got hit with a Mage's Disjunction and didn't decide to fuck off to the other side of the planet for a few rounds in response to that. That screws the whole test up.

>>47684307
Thats a great idea. I dont really mind the expense but an afternoon spent wining and dining a demon would probably run up the bill quite high and still produce marginal results. Your idea on the other hand would probably be much cheaper than letting her binge on narcotics and booze and still provide a positive experience with the added bonus of not appearing patronizing to her species.

>>47684504
It's the same conditions as everyone else had on Beastmass, as far as I'm aware.
Why would I change the rules of the challenge?

>>47684365
Accomplished Sneak Attacker (or what have you) advances Sneak Attack Dice by 1, if that's a thing you don't mind going for.

>>47684504

>monsters can only be 1pp crb only entries with zero modifications

>players can choose from their hearts content of 1pp material regardless of how dumb the combination of classes abilities spells items and so on is

I feel like these tests are very biased and do not reflect anything at all.

>>47684449
Depends on your DM, campaign, and party. A lot of people will shit on you for not having perception maxed.

What's your class? Where are you getting untrained knowledge and professions?

>>47684449
Those skills are pretty insane for a level 1 character (especially since I assume you're playing a Summoner and they don't get many skills). You'll do just fine.

>>47684544
You need to have something to measure your dick against, anon.

>>47684589
Like a cricket or a pencil eraser.

>>47684575
I'm a summoner and the knowledge skills come from Breadth of Experience.

>>47684518
Happy to help. Just remember to either have the comission ready beforehand, or line up some other entertainment while they work on it. Even a light conversation on the merits of erotica vs smut could duffice, especially if you have a few associates along to share other opinions. Maybe everyone can put ideas in a hat and then draw at random to argue in favor of them.

>>47684589
I can proudly say I measured myself against the length of my game gear.

I actually worried a fuckton, because the game gear always won by like half a centimeter.

TURNS OUT my friends had been fucking lying to me about their own sizes

>>47684209
My bad

>>47684584
Ok. Honestly I am unsure what to spend my Eidolon's feat on. I could do it for MORE SKILLS, or just give him power attack.

>DM tells us our state array
>' I want you to roll 4d6, keep everythinf, reroll it if it's lower than a 10 and nother duplicates.'
>He also tells us to maximize our HP every level and gives four free starting feats in addition to the normal amount.

I'm clenching my butthole tight with anticipation on how badly he's going to fuck us up come fight time.

>>47684635
Since you use charisma as a summoner, you should consider focusing on charisma skills. Most other classes will dump, or at least neglect to invest in, charisma.

If you really want to make sure you're as relevant as you can be, check with your party. You might have a party skill gap in diplomacy or intimidate. You might consider dropping perform or craft alchemy in favor of other charisma skills.

Don't feel obligated to try to optimize your skills if they're flavorful.

I'm assuming you have something like 1 rank + 3 class + 4 stat + 3 misc for your +11 skills. Your probably know, but I've had too many players that forgot you can only have as many ranks in a skill as your total character level.

>>47684730
Figure out what you want your Eidolon to do in combat. It looks like it's small. You could take a feat for AC so it can move through threatened squares to flank more readily. Or work towards shoring up the small strength penalty, which usually takes a lot of feats.

Aside from paying for backups via a discovery tax, is there a way for an alchemist to get extra mutagens or at the very least faster mutagen rebrews per day?

>>47682921
>There's no shilling because it's related to DSP; if they were shilling of course they'd put their trips on, so that people can see "oh hey, there's the developer".
You, uh... you don't know what the word "shilling" means, do you? If you let people know that you're a representative of the company whose products you're endorsing, you're not shilling, you're just doing your job.

To be a shill, you have to pretend that you're not in any way connected to the product you're shilling, so it looks like you're just a fan giving your sincere thoughts, not someone whose being paid to talk something up.

>>47684837
Nope, unless you take Master Chymist which gives you X/day mutagens as a Standard action.

>>47683792
To be fair, that combination is a full-BAB, Dex/Con/Wis-focused, all-good-saves build. It's not going to best an Arcanist/Archivist/Warder or anything that's SAD, but as far as trisalt combinations go it sounds like that would actually solve most of the problems that each of those classes would suffer.

>>47684762
Just be ready to fight APL+3 encounters and I bet you'll do fine.

>>47684866
I've considered that prc but it means delaying grand mutagen to 17 and slowing beastmorph progression which kind of hurts.

I suppose alchemist 7/Chymist 1/Alchemist14/Chymist 2 also works but if you're taking the second level then you may as well take furious mutagen for the unique discovery.

I really wish paizo would errata master chymist so the PRC also works the other way around and stacks with Alchemist levels for alchemist mutagen discovery pre reqs

>>47684831
>I'm assuming you have something like 1 rank + 3 class + 4 stat + 3 misc for your +11 skills
Yes, between traits, racial bonuses, and masterwork items.

>Since you use charisma as a summoner, you should consider focusing on charisma skills. Most other classes will dump, or at least neglect to invest in, charisma.
We have a sorcerer in the party and I believe I might be the only one with ANY knowledge skills at all (except knowledge nature the oracle has).

>Don't feel obligated to try to optimize your skills if they're flavorful.
I'm a former performer turned terrorist essentially. The skills were chosen with that in mind. I might want Linguistics so I can make forgeries as well.

Does anybody else got a problem downloading the trove?

It's like I'm allowed to download just a certain amount of files/day.

>>47683792
>someone else with a tristalt

I need advice. GM slapped our gestalts with a third stack of class (all of 'em some kind of soulknife).

I was going for a fun-times steelfist commando//aberrant aegis grapple build, and have tentatively decided on Deadly Fist (we're at 3rd level, and I took the Empowered Natural Weapons bladeskill for tentacle slap-grabbing).

What should I plan to do to keep this fun-times and not awful-horrible-death-times?

>>47685010
Are you the one with that retarded GM?
Drop the game. Forcing soulknife on your players like that is retarded.

So my DM shut down the whole Implant Bomb shenanigans pretty quick.

Question now is... What bomb discoveries should I pick? Is Stink Bomb worth picking up first, or should I get a safer choice like Frost Bomb which doesn't req Smoke Bomb?

>>47684988
In that case, it seems like you know what you're doing. Have fun! Share cool stories!

>>47685010
hmm... get something to up the fuck out of your skills, like an investigator (your counters will thank you).

OR

A veilweaver. Like a Seer Vizier or something.

>>47684989
Downloading it all at once is bad and will crash shit
Download it one folder at a time

>>47684245
*superhelpful

It's not our fault that some DMs are shit, anon. If they're not using third party material and need help, their best hope is actually to talk to their DM about opening up the game or find a better group. Paizo isn't good. DSP is good but not great. 5E is great but usually people posting here are committed to suffering.

It might annoy you personally, but converting their entire character into DSP's stuff is usually honestly and truly the BEST POSSIBLE advice you can give, so it gets given a lot. If you can't use third party you need to explain that you're crippled, just like if you can't get your wheelchair up stairs you need to specify ramp-based routing when you ask for directions. The full burden falls to the asker, and none at all on us.

>>47685038
But I am using Jdownloader.

>>47685027
>retarded GM

Personally, I think it's an interesting twist. It was unexpected and has given (me, at least) a way to fight bare-fisted some homebrew makes-rust-monsters-seem-nice things.

>>47685034
That's an idea. Mind, my stat array isn't the greatest (a pretty even spread before the Brawn bonus) but I was hoping to focus more on taking more dangerous enemies out of the fight while the other two nuke the mobs.

shouldn't the magic tactics toolbox pdf be out soon

>>47685063

>5E is great

Then there is these kind of faggots.

>>47685034
>vizier
Int-based. Daevic is Cha and will murder everything ever (TL;DR collect natural attacks like Pokemon, full attack whenever you bull rush, veils to help you bull rush) or just be hilarious if you go sword-and-board. Buildposter is probably already hard, but they have one shield that effectively drops a forcewall that can "nope" more or less anything that needs line of effect as an immediate action and another shield that performs massive-damage shield bashes that send the bashed victim into an extradimensional oubliette of hungry darkness.

I guess the Int-focus doesn't matter if you don't take anything that needs a save, actually, and they're probably the best gish option if you've already got full BAB and good HD.

>>47685063

How can you like path of war and then say Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition is better.

I mean path of war and Tome of battle are basically prototypes version for 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons...

>>47685098
your faggot of a GM obviously doesn't give a shit about your character concepts, and thus, isn't interested in building a story around them by tacking that onto them. Doubly so if these rust-monsters just fuck over melee types.

>>47685031
Your DM doesn't have a sense of fun.

Also you should definitely take Smoke Bomb. Stink Bomb isn't great because it allows for a save, but the higher end bombs (poison bomb and inferno bomb) are godlike. Even Greater/Plague Bomb might be decent in a game like Hell's Rebels where you might have the option to deal lasting damage and have it not be worthless. Plus Smoke Bomb itself is handy since you can make a smokescreen if you need it. Also, remember that the cloud bombs don't replace the bomb damage, they just add the cloud effect in addition to the bomb damage.

Take Frost Bomb or the alternate damage bombs only if you're running into a lot of stuff that's resistant/immune to Fire damage, or just grab Force Bomb and be covered forever.

>>47685031
Stink Bomb is pretty ridiculous once you pick up fast bombs. Anything hit by it is pretty much out of the encounter as it's nauseated for at least 1d4+1 rounds, and while they might make the fort save, they won't make all 4.

>>47685098
well you're an unarmed guy, and all my damage knowledge is at the other end of the range spectrum.

Consider the Vizier side then; you can save a fuckton by using the storm gauntlets (+sonic, electrical and cold damage to hits) with a couple of points in it, AND/OR the force knuckle booster veil. There's size boosters and potential extra natural attacks as well, if that's of interest to you...

There's also a few sources of AC if you were limited by monkiness...

>>47685104
Should be, it's been about a week since it went into QA.

>>47685063
I count DSP as mediocre, I count Paizo as mediocre. Both manage to occasionally have a good idea but it is hidden under piles of shit.

>>47685127
Yeah unless using the saves stuff, the stat matters basically not at all for veilweavers. Vizier gets more essence mostly, but it's true that daevic could get great mileage out of the blood veils, and maybe he wants that for decent flight and save bonuses.

>>47685133
Frankly, I went into this game knowing that the overarching narrative would be more important than a class build, so the "character concept" you're talking about is not the same as the "character concept" I came up with.

The not-rust-monsters fuck over everything that comes into contact with them, and are considerably worse than "have an extra set of class abilities you don't necessarily have to use".
Also, he explicitly told us that the not-rust-monsters' abilities won't affect the tacked-on-soulknife manifestations.

>>47685146
Considering I'm planning on a solid amount of my combat to be with CMB rolls, extra attacks isn't as useful as bonuses to grapple and damage.
As for veils, I'm absolutely unfamiliar with them, but will definitely check them out.

>>47685189
The veils aren't all that good for solo classes.

As a Gestalt or Tristalt component however, they can form a powerful support framework.

There are veils to boost CMB/CMD, veils to boost grappling, PLENTY of veils to boost damage, as well as a few mobility, defense and utility veils.

They're not bad, mind you, it's just, they're not quite as good when solo as just grabbing, say, an alchemist.

>>47683385
Sword and Board paladins aren't that bad

They're just unarguably the worst kind of Paladin

I'm going to be Summoner VMC Oracle. I'm the skill monkey summoner who posted before, what would be the best mystery? I'm already set on Branded for Cha to Fort for my curse.

>>47685249
Lore or nature.

>>47684539
That's actually super helpful, thanks! I didn't even think there could be a feat for that.

>>47685268
See I can't get the Cha to Reflex and AC revelation or the Cha to knowledge, as far as I can tell. Is the pfsrd accurate?

>>47683720
I don't understand this "cant do anything outside of combat" meme. How can a baseline fighter not basically do anything if it isn't direct combat?

The combat styles you complained about are pretty worthwhile if you know what you're doing. The "extreme problems" in movement makes no sense, and having lower damage output then archery/thf is hardly enough to call them less than worthwhile.

Not to mention the various counters and shut downs to archery still exist. Good luck being a caster who decided to try to best a martial with shit bab and no feats to spare.

>>47684438
I am the most experienced and gamey among the group, I'd feel bad asking for houserules to get what I want out of my characters.

But in a pure hypothetical sense, it's an interesting direction to investigate - what is the actual distillable worth of BAB?

>>47685325
DON'T

>>47685307
Two things to note that Paizo did wrong with that feat:
1) It's not a combat feat, but it should be (which would allow a slayer to take it with Combat Trick)
2) It lacks the text that indicates it can be taken multiple times, but you should be able to (to help your slayer get to where his sneak attack progression should be).

Talk over these things with your DM because pretty much any reasonable DM would allow both changes.

>>47684216
>I was commenting on how throwing sucks in pathfinder.

>SOmeone said it doesn't so I said prove it.

>They posted a level 20 build.

>I have no argument or point, but I say throwing still sucks in pathfinder without any way to explain why.

>>47685348

Do not respond to obvious shitposting

>>47685363

He is right in so far AS it not being very functional until about that level. This does not help anyone playing in the majority of normal games which begin anywhere from Level 1 to level 5, or even one starting around middle levels.

>>47685348
Don't what?
I'm genuinely curious about this meme here.

>>47685325
What skills do a fighter have?

2+Int, with a bad list. No in-class boosters to skills, no direct access to magic items that boost them, few if any utility items. It has no class features other than +attack, +damage, and some very minor defensive abilities.

It gets no real movement boosting abilities, and after really low levels, flight and alternative movement abilities become very common, as do magical defenses that the fighter cannot overcome easily or at all without aid.

It gets no spells or special abilities, it doesn't even get something like Deeds or Talents.

>>47685390
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>47685389
It's certainly stronger than crossbows.

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>>47682860
Dang, this shitposting was so intense people didn't even notice the potential fluffy tail archetype

>>47685358
The first one I can get behind, but if you have the second one then you can dip a single level of Rogue and suddenly have a good SA progression if you want it since it's limited by your level, not the level of the class granting SA.

>>47685399
nah, crossbows are actually semi functional with the correct items and archetypes at low levels

>>47685394
They do have that AWT which gives them full ranks in certain skills.

>>47685389
Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, and Power Attack are the only essentials. You can and take it from there depending on what you're using and basically play as a skirmisher.

More than viable at early and even middle levels, probably the only time it is.

>>47685406
Indeed.
...
hmm.

I'm not a fan of the vancian casteriness but other than that I'd roll one up quick, at first glance anyways.

Consider a partial-initiator and/or partial-psionic pair of archetypes (just quick spell system replacers) and we'd really be in business there!

>>47685143
>>47685145

Sounds good. Any advice on feats?

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot for level 1 or can I wing picking up precise until later?

>>47682860
You've got some empty levels there.. 6th in particular offers no new spell level and no abilities. Careful with that!

>>47685394
Not a large list but they have what they need at least and 1 point into each makes them more or less decent at it thanks to the class bonus.
I mean perception should be on there but it's not like you can't afford to sink the few ranks you have into it.

I think your problem is that you don't see that core classes are designed specifically to excel in one area and fall short in the other. No class can overcome everything easily or at all without aid.

For example, Bards need magical buffs/aid to be good at combat. Fighters need magical buffs/aid to be good at movement/dealing with magical defenses.

I will agree with you on Deeds and Talents thing though. I think it's criminal the Fighter didn't come equipped with something as remarkable as Martial Flexibility or some of the Rage Powers Barbarians get.

>>47682860
Levels 6, 12, and 18 are completely dead levels; they give no new spell-levels and no abilities either. Why not fill them with a extra ability or two?

>>47685659
My "problem" is that the core classes are, if we're being blunt here, shit. A class should not be forced to only have one role that it does.

Also
>Core casters
>Only one role
I mean I guess being a literal god counts as just one role.

>>47685659
Problem is, the fighters aren't making anyone better at combat by being there. They're not PROVIDING anything.

Their skills aren't better than the others, THEIR COMBAT ISN'T BETTER THAN MANY OTHERS, and so when others do the combat bit as good or better AND offer a bunch of stuff, such as stuff the fighter needs to be useful, THAT MAKES THE FIGHTER PRETTY FUCKING WORTHLESS IN COMPARISON.

>>47685636
If you're going bomb-heavy you should grab Precise Shot. It's not as useful at higher levels, but at lower levels when your to-hit is terrible and touch ACs are actually a challenge to hit, you're going to want it.

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>>47685506
Vancian is, for the most part, the only thing, unfortunately.

>>47685656
>>47685682
Most of the "empty levels" still have stuff in them, by virtue of being levels where something else is upgraded, but I didn't put it on the chart because to keep it from being too cluttered... At least, last I checked abilities upgraded at those levels. I've revised it so many times I may have changed some of them and screwed that up.

>>47685741
Oh hey, your Bolts upgrade at those levels for damage. I would suggest either putting something else in those slots so that you can have "this deals more damage AND ALSO NEW ABILITIES WHEEEE" or just write down the damage-boosters on the chart so that people can look at-a-glance when they're going to have upgrades.

Is there a reason there wouldn't be a Spherecasting, Initiating, or Psionic variety of this? Just personal taste or is there a deeper reason? It's fine if it's just because you don't want to make them or don't like them, I'd just want to know the reason is all.

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>>47685770
There's no reason there wouldn't be versions for that, I just wanted to focus on things I already had a grasp on. I've never used spheres, initiating, or DSP psionics, and hoped that after I had the base class ironed out people could would either assist in making those archetypes, or even do it for me.

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>>47685811
Well I certainly like it, anon! I might give this a go if I can convince my GM to let me.

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>>47685844

What do you guys think of implanting an astral construct (from the jojo kineticist) with a bomb?

>>47685866
Does the construct stay around long enough to be implanted or for the bomb to do anything before it disappears?

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>>47685863

>>47685911
It should unless I've misread the rules.

>>47685223
I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

On that note: where do I find these things? I've got the pdf for Vizier, is there a universal sourcebook or playtest that has more?

>>47685958
uh, for veils I've mostly been looking at the supplemental.

I think that's the playtest

>>47685688
Your problem is with the basic design of DnD though, a party of adventurers would consist of various but necessary skill sets so that cooperation teamwork matters among the PCs to overcome the challenges GMs throw at them.

>>47685690
This doesn't make any sense, the all caps isn't helping either.

How is it a problem that the fighter doesn't make anyone better at combat when the class was designed to fight?

Their skills shouldn't be better than the others either, they aren't skill-monkeys like the Alchemist, Bard, or Rogue. That'd be like giving them the Fighter's HD and BAB.

I would agree that in combat they seem lackluster compared to what the Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin provide since they get powers/spells/companions. The only thing the Fighter has on them is probably Combat Maneuvers which is handled very poorly in regard to CMD scaling.

Still that is hardly enough to call them worthless though since a Fighter or anyone really can effectively buy the spells/companions/rage powers the other martials get.

>>47685986
My problem is that all players should have some way to contribute out of combat, and the fight just entirely lacks that.

>>47685985
do you have a link? my fingers are sticky with crab-fat caramel...

>>47685986
>How is it a problem
Okay, I'll bite the obvious bait this once, I haven't done so all week anyways.

How can it not be? How can it not be when everyone else is also designed to fight?

You *yourself* admitted they're lackluster compared to the Barbarian, the Ranger, the Paladin (by the way those guys also have combat maneuvers, hell, wizards have a great way to bullrush if you must).

The fighter brings nothing these guys don't bring.
They bring plenty the fighter doesn't bring.

Even if the fighter buys those spells/companions/powers everyone else can get, you're expending your resources and WBL to do this, and everyone else with all those things you're buying to have, already had them, AND still has their WBL to buy more.

Face it.
The fighter's SHIT.

>>47686048
I thought I had, sorry
www.dropbox.com/s/9fblkac0obf9mzx/Supplemental.pdf?dl=0#

>>47686025
> My problem is that all players should have some way to contribute out of combat

They do though, although Fighters have to buy their way into it. Just like a Cleric/Druid has to buff their way into contributing in combat.

>>47686089
Fighters are actually decent t4 characters, its just what they're good at is FIGHTING and literally nothing else

I wouldn't play them in a campaign thats anything besides kick down the door murderhoboing.

>>47686110
>buying
>equal to buffing

?????????

File: ChaikaClap.gif (1MB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 500x500px

>>47685844
>Not even the finished version of the class
>Someone already likes it enough to want to play it for real

This makes me giddy. A shame my other homebrew was far more niche and likely won't have the same amount of appeal.

>>47686126
That's EXPLICITLY meaning they're T5 not T4.

They fight *okay* but not really all that well since they're easily matched or exceeded by numerous other classes.

The fighting is all they can do and they're not great at it. They can't do other things well at all.

If they were BAB15 they'd completely crumble to T6.

You want a T4 fighter, you can with 3pp: you need a Lore Warden/Myrmidon or a Road-Warrior/Myrmidon.

>>47686211
nah, fighters broke into t4 very recently with books, they can do a lot more in their fights and be quite effective at it.

After spending an hour and a half doing nothing because I rolled 2 2's in a row for initiative and then them killing the enemies before I got a turn, what's the best way to raise your initiative modifier, /pfg/?

>>47686295
Up your Dex
Get a Psicrystal (handy for plenty more as well)
Improved Initiative
Couple of marital stances

>>47686110
>Fighters can contribute out of combat
Alright. How?

>>47686295
improved initiative, init traits
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone

>>47685811
>>47686149
>Show of Force (Su): The Stregone has trained herself to add a physical impact to her mystic bolts.
Uh, okay, HOW does a Stregone do this? Does it add Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution to damage? Does it do something else?

>>47686089
>Okay, I'll bite the obvious bait this once, I haven't done so all week anyways.

I'm not "baiting", feel free to keep padding yourself on the back though.

>How can it not be? How can it not be when everyone else is also designed to fight?

They aren't though, classes without BaB are up shit creek in combat without magic. Skillmonkeys and Casters rely on magic to fight on their level. Meanwhile Martials are more than lackluster at anything not combat-related.

>You *yourself* admitted they're lackluster compared to the Barbarian, the Ranger, the Paladin (by the way those guys also have combat maneuvers, hell, wizards have a great way to bullrush if you must). The fighter brings nothing these guys don't bring. They bring plenty the fighter doesn't bring. Even if the fighter buys those spells/companions/powers everyone else can get, you're expending your resources and WBL to do this, and everyone else with all those things you're buying to have, already had them, AND still has their WBL to buy more.

That's exactly what your resources and WBL is for though. Why would you not expend it?

I mean anyone can bull-rush if they needed to (ring of the ram or whatever?), even a fighter not built to do so. That's what loot/magic is for, to level the playing field. I don't see any core class bringing anything that anyone else can't just buy.

There's nothing that unique about what they have other than the fact they conveniently already have it. You claim they're buying "more" but there's not much else to buy aside from the ability to contribute outside of combat which they all lack.

>>47686320
>>47686343
I've seen some people suggest an item of Improved Initiative on forums. Is that possible? Only similar thing I've seen is an Ioun stone of Endurance.

>>47686376
Oh, shit, I forgot to decide whether I was going to delete that one or not. It was going to be an alternative to Mystic Grace, but that ability was made a core part of the class so I just kind of forgot about it and shelved it for "maybe put this in an archetype

It was going to be the ability to use Str-to-hit for ranged attacks, and to add half your str-mod to damage when using your bolts in melee

>>47686321
I already said how, they buy their way into it.

>>47686126
That's what I said. Buying Spells = Buffing.

>>47683363
A dagger throwing rogue.
It was my second pc ever

>>47686505
i keep wanting to do that

But then i realize i like being useful

>>47685636
Rapid shot and TWF work with fast bombs, so I would grab those. Maybe improved TWF eventually.

Are you planning to melee at all, or literally only bombs?

>>47683468
You forgot
>1.1 Fire Elric

>>47686505
>>47686516
Next time, be a Gluten-Free Bunslinger.

>>47686412
>There's not much more to buy other than utility outside of combat

Magical weapons. (casters can skip this - they have touch attacks for damage) Magical armor. (casters can skip this, divine casters can pick it up anyway just to be even hardier). Belts of +Str or +Dex. Assorted magic items that fill in for things that should be easier to obtain, like a Belt of Mighty Hurling for a throwing character (who still won't be very good).

Martials have to foot a higher bill in order to play on the same field.

>>47683798
>Martials tend to do fine in combat. They just can't do anything outside of combat.
See this is why no one respects your opinion.
Martials do fine in low level combat, once you get to mid and high level combat most pure martials will fall off the face of the earth in terms of combat relevance.

>>47686412
>That's exactly what your resources and WBL is for though. Why would you not expend it?
Because money is something that anyone can spend to improve themselves. Yeah, a Fighter can "just buy" the ability to be decent at TWF or Bull-Rushing, but a Barbarian can do the same thing and still have even more things to their name (like Rage). So can a Paladin, a Rogue, even a Kineticist has more options than a Fighter, especially out-of-combat.

>>47686556
You forgot to mention that fighters also have to pay either full price, have a party member craft [the item they need], or rely on the GM to hand it to them.

Casters, on the other hand, can make the things themselves AND get a solid 50% discount at the outset, with ways to reduce that even more.

>>47686485
A caster's buff spells come in-class.
If the fighter has to spend money to keep up with a caster, then why isn't the caster getting even more ahead with their own share of money?

>>47686485
So the fighter can spend a shitload of gold more than other classes to get utility that they get innately, which also makes him directly worse at his main role (Which he doesn't even excel at, because other classes can self-buff for no gold investment, and beat him out, or summon, or do a ton of other shit).

Meanwhile, the Wizard can spend a single feat and do this 10x better.

>>47686560
High level combats a farce anyway. It's infamous in its farcical nature.

>>47686412
And THIS is why commoners and Overwhelming Soul Kineticists are completely relevant in and out of combat, making them at *least* T4.

That's what loot/magic is for, levelling the playing field.

Your. Words.

>>47686601
It doesn't change the fact that a pure martial will drop off dramatically in terms of effectiveness.

>>47686560
Hey they're still good for being distractions in surprise rounds and mind control fodder. It's not the sort of useful that players would want but it's technically useful.

>>47686599
>Wizard
>ANY kind of good comparison.

>>47683099
They've always been shit though.
Ever since it became a "general"
Go have a look at /vg/ and look where it's going to end up eventually, this isn't even bad yet.

I honestly can't understand what kind of spiritual garbage you need to stuff together into a bag of skin to get the idea that there's nothing wrong with a CLASS because everyone gets GOLD.

I mean, you could be richer if you devoted your life to working out so you could get a good body and sell your asshole to wealthy elders looking for fresh-faced discretionary buttsluts, but that doesn't mean your life is worth LIVING, anon. It's NOT, and the same goes for Fighters. If a class isn't independently, on its own merits, a viable and enjoyable and CONTRIBUTING part of the game, the class is flawed.

>>47686682
Not him, but Fighter is far from useless, especially with WMH. There's some swanky stuff in there.

>>47686715
Fighter isn't complete shit, but you need to be pretty damn good with the system, or have specific archetypes, in order to make one that legitimately can stand up at even low T4.

And even then, it is extremely easy to make a character that will do WAY BETTER than a fighter at combat, while still having utility. It's called a Barbarian.

>>47686656
/vg/ is fine you shill/cuck
/v/ is the fucking problem

>>47684021

I remember "the railgun."

The problem, of course, is that Throwing IS a trap if you're not a fighter and starting at a pretty decent level, because until you can afford a blinkback belt or Ricochet Toss, you're not getting that weapon back after you make an attack. It is the most fucking miserable fighting style in the game to play until you have some kind of trick that lets you get by with one main weapon like EVERY OTHER CLASS instead of "well, there were a lot of enemies this time so I ran out of daggers a while ago. Sorry, guys."

>>47685325

Things you do outside of combat are usually based on what skills you have.

It took the developers over a decade to realize that the fighter has the worst class skill list in the game and a comically absurd lack of natural skill ranks compared to its fellow martials, who usually have 4-6 base skills to the fighter's 2. Somewhat insultingly, they still made fixing this glaring oversight something fighty mcgee has to PAY for rather than get as a freebie.

"Extreme problems in movement" is the issue my party's sword-and-board ranger regularly encountered when she could unleash seven kinds of hell...on anything that was a single step away from her. Make her move ten feet and suddenly all she can do is one swing of the sword, because full attack rules are retarded.

>>47686522

I was thinking a longbow but I only have 10 STR so I certainly won't be capable of much with it.

>>47686784
Ah awesome /vg/ denialfags are in pathfinder threads too.
Well that explains why these threads are so awful.

>>47686788
But who honestly actually starts from level 1 though anyway.
Everyone hates level 1 so why would anybody willingly put themselves through that?

>>47684209
Tits or GTFO

>>47686819
Eh, you can make it work eventually. Slap Adaptable on it. You can buff your STR with mutagen and extracts. Grab a tumor familiar with Extra Item Slot: Gloves so you can stick some poisoners gloves on them for easier buffing. Make it a Defender familiar for added fun.

>>47686858

Level 1, yes, but throwing builds aren't online until level 6 or so. If your GM is one of those who thinks starting at 3 or 4 is pretty nice you're still not gonna be in a good position for a much longer time than many other builds.

If you're not a fighter and the GM isn't inclined to let a Blinkback Belt fall into your lap when you can afford it, you're fucked.

>kingmaker
>deciding on contracts
>church of Iomedae
>one player in the party is making shit up or misinterpreting what they offer
>Iomedae training our troops means they are now paladins of Iomedae
>enforcing contracts means church of asmodeus controls all contracts and laws

This nigga tho.

>>47686948
Quick question, who actually buys blinkback belts? Does nobody else just use nearby houses as projectiles?

>>47686983

We can't all be Trox Barbarians, CLYDE.

Could someone repost the Inner Sea Intrigue page with training on it?

>>47683104
reroll.

Can someone repost the enchanting courtesan please?

Due pestering of my player I'm allowing 3pp in my campaign as long as I can find it in the d20pfsrd site, but still what should I outright ban from my players, since well they are a bunch of minmaxing fuckers ?

>>47687217
3pp

>>47687217
Greater Improved Initiative

Be really careful about allowing the Artisan

Be careful about Black Seraph using initiators, and fear-based antipaladins. Intimidate is very powerful if optimized, and antipaladins and BS users can strip immunity to it.

>>47687217
Wizards.

>>47687217
Sacred Geometry.
Ascetic alternate cleric class.
Artisan base class, since it breaks crafting even more than it already is.
Other than those, it's mostly just a case-by-case basis on what you think works or not.

>>47687217
3pp

>>47687217
>>47687268
And THEN the Dread in the party built to capitalize on this more or less doubles his actions and coup-de-graces everything with himself as his own flanking buddy or something.

>>47687217
DSP/PoW:
Broken Blade
Primal Fury
Steel Serpent is under powered
DSP/Ultimate Psionics
Psychic Reformation
Kobold Press
Asethetic
Drop Dead Studios
The entire Weather Sphere

>>47687217

Take a REAL close look at anything from Kobold Press they bring you. Some of it's pretty all right, but some of it's shit and some of it's BROKEN.

NEVER let a player be a Void Oracle.

>>47687296
Primal Fury isn't THAT bad, just tell people to not be a nigger with charge builds, and to actually understand that shit like lances DOES NOT double the maneuver damage at all.

Anyone know of any 3pp stuff, besides DSP and Tome of Secrets, that has content for guns/firearms?

>>47687296
Broken Blade is fine if it's just what one of the ranged users is stuck using as his "when someone's in your face" melee backup" though. You don't need to worry if it's just that.

Primal Fury is too strong in the early level damage it offers.

>>47687217
>>47687304
Don't let them touch the Trickster either. It's complete OP garbage. If they want to run a Trickster point them at Ertw's Beguiler instead.

>>47686983
People desperately trying to make thrown weapons viable. Spoiler: They're not.

>>47687401
What is it about this thing that gave it such goddamn prominence anyway? Nostalgia over a 3.5 version, the guy's existing fame, what?

>>47687418
Cept they are? They take a bit to get going, but it can be viable.

>>47687436
I think it's a combination of the 3.5 nostalgia and the fact that the author has done an exemplary job updating it for pathfinder. I've built a few for one-shots and it's one of those rare gems where you might be completely overshadowed by a wizard in terms of power, but you don't mind because you're actually having fun.

You could probably put together a decent thrown weapon fighter since weapon specialization would make it less MAD

Goddamn you fucking pieces of colossal shit, you fucks had one fucking job: not make this thread fucking shit

Go outside you colossal turbotards and fucking take a breather you goddamn crapsacks and ratnuts

>>47687489
>/pfg/
>not shit
>ever

we're playing pathfinder, we live and breathe shit

>>47682762
Im playing a barbarian, but now we're ahigh enough level that our wizards summons can do most everything I can do.
How do I stay relevant to the party? My only real role in combat was sit and soak damage while dishing it out.

>>47687510
give up

>>47687484
Trained Throw is great.

>>47687510
Spell Sunder

>>47687436
Aside from the point >>47687469 makes, I think people flock to it because it follows the advantage of the WotC beguiler that brings full casters more in line with other classes in terms of tiers. It's also full of unique and interesting options that allows you to build for a wide variety of roles (similar to the appeal of the vigilante as an every-class).

It's also just absolutely fucking beautiful to look at.

>>47687528
Have it and strength surge. I've been focusing my build around that since it's RotRL, but there's only so many opportunities.

So.. I can finally use Leadership feat in the new campaign. The GM believe it's "fair" because you need to share your wealth with the cohort, making you both "weaker" than you should have been. if you haven't guess, he only play gish and martial type character.

What is the best way to use leadership? I don't want to break the campaign because the GM will probably go "everything the player can do, the npc can too". But this might be the only chance to play with the feat.

>>47687633
fuck their waifus

>>47687661
Crafter cohort

>>47687633
Perhaps some levels in Oracle followed by Rage Prophet? Or if 3pp allowed you could either go Primal Disciple or a dip into Gambler Kineticist and take those fun feats

>>47682848
You deserve a high five
In the face
With a chair
Repeatedly and with extreme force
And a taser

>>47687678
What about intelligent item cohort?

Quick Q: If I have a Mithril Chain Shirt, can I add a armored kilt to it without making it count as medium armor? Would the kilt also need to be mithril?

Keep in mind the kilt was updated at some point: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/armored-kilt

>>47687854
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/armored-kilt
don't utilize an item that's shit for the game.

>>47687854
It specifically says it increases the armor category so it would be medium armor on a chair shirt, even if both were made of mithril.

>>47686232

Provide sources for this please.

>>47687946
literally the weapon master's handbook

WHAT ARE THE BEST ADVENTURE PATHS? I HAVE a party assembled and they want me to run a game tomorrow oh God what was I thinking when I said yes PLEASE HELP JESUS CHRIST

>>47687946
I have posted a fighter build that usees archery to solo one-round-murder anything of equal level in the monster manual.

>>47687995
I like wrath of winter. Feel free to start in book 2 as random soldiers or whatever who get accosted by the black knight dude.

Most of book one is "you are peasants lets level you up till someone cares" fodder.

>>47687987

I will check it out.

>>47688082

You seem to have a sour reputation around here but I will take a look at it thank you.

>>47688082
Goddamn you fucking pieces of colossal shit, you fucks had one fucking job: not make this thread fucking shit

Go outside you colossal turbotards and fucking take a breather you goddamn crapsacks and ratnuts

>>47686232
>Fighters broke into T4
No, they didn't. Buildposter bitched rampantly and failed to prove that a fighter can do anything other than direct damage, and not even that great of direct damage.

>>47688102
Buildposter has a bad reputation because it's a hivemind of Paizo shitposters trying to force memes and worthless idea. You can pretty safely ignore it.

Jesus fuck. I spend a day with my son, go to work, store gets robbed, and then come home to that backlog. I do not have enough whiskey for this, especially since I'm dry for the duration.

Here if you need me.

>>47688114

Oh okay.

I'm still looking at Fighter options to shower on my sweet, inmocent, baby lamb idiot players who are 100% new and so full of optimism.

>>47688102
People don't like being wrong. It all started way back when i proved that the kinestist is not "worse than a warrior with a bow" and is in fact a tier 4 class.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43294723/#43300120

>>47688114
Dude...tier 4 Is literally:
>Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

A fighter ending any combat encounter out of the monster manual solo qualifies as "capable of doing one thing quite well".

Stop feeding buildposter

>>47688134

What Maneuvers would you give to a group of drow warrior mages, assassins and their minotaur mercenaries?

>>47688171
Depends, are supernatural discs enough to qualify for "mages"?

>>47688158
Wind Wall, Mirror Image, Blink, Fog, any miss chances, or basically any magical defense at all. Congrats, the fighter lost.

Also, Kineticist is still shit, with the corner case exception of Air and Earth, which are only somewhat covered in shit, but still covered in shit.

>>47688134
Goddamn yes to a PoW npc book!

>>47688145
Lore Warden / Eldritch something, the one that lets you rock out with a familiar / mauler familiar, plus the Combat Stamina system although god DAMN is it a long read.

If you're using Path of War: Expanded, the Myrmidon is okay. If you're using Akashic Mysteries, the Akashic Warrior is not okay, but Ssalarn thinks it is and the last guy who brought it up didn't continue and I'm too much of a faggot to snap at someone somewhere I can't be anonymous.

>>47688114
They do damage quite well, thast the one thing they do

Thats like the definition of t4.