What went wrong?

>>47525979
It wasn't a specialist game.

>>47525979
>What went wrong?
What went right?

>>47525979
Ignoring what their audience wanted.

>>47525979
Kirby quit too late.

>>47525979
>Nothing

>>47525979
Anyone with any talent had left GW at that point, and the new CEO seems to have no intention of paying their designers anything above minimum wage

The minis on a technical level are still up there, but that doesn't stop them from looking stupid

>>47525979
1. The 7th and 8th editions of Fantasy were cancerous.The switch from 4 man ranks to 5 man ranks was a mistake, and 8th edition doubled down on it with the horde rules. These changes inflated the entry cost of the game to an unsustainable degree. By the end it cost twice as much as 40K to get a decent starter set for any army besides WoC and Ogres.

2. Demolishing a perfectly good setting and replacing it with an avalanche of meaningless nouns loosely connected to overpriced models and a bare-bones version of 40K.

3. Expecting the in-house creative team to be able to formulate their own setting. Should have brought in proven talent from outside the company.

>>47525979
A half-baked setting idea.
Terrible rules.
No balance whatsoever.
Abandonment of tournaments altogether.

I could go on, but I wont.

All these tears. All these delicious tears.

>>47525979
Okay, I hate AoS as much as the next dude.. but pal, do you really have to make the same thread again and again..??

>>47525979
Nothing went wrong

WHFB was a dead trash game

It was the setting being canned entirely or morphed into Age of Sigmar

WHFB fans were gonna cry either way so they decided to court a new fanbase.

>>47525979
Sigmar was the wrong god. Should have been Age of Slaanesh.

>>47525979
The initial ruleset and its jokey 'pretend to ride a horse' bullshit. I don't care if they later canned it, putting it out as the first thing people saw after a beloved (if poorly aging and terribly handled) game just heightened any resentment that people already had.

>>47526595
If they at least used the "Living document" to fix the core rules and update scrolls to fix blatantly broken shit like scarabs then I might consider it, but they seem to have no intention of making the gameplay good. As you said having joke rules, even with newer releases like the Fireslayers, doesn't help the perception that they simply don't take it seriously.

>>47526506
A new fanbase that only existed in gw's delusional mind, the game is tanking hard enough that my local gw store doesn't even have a playerbase and every other store in my area basically regards the game with open disdain and have started to phase it out of their inventory.

>>47526672
I feel really bad for some of these store owners who bought the stock. My FLGS has marked off all fantasy boxes for 30% off since October, and most of them still haven't moved.

>>47526672
Too bad the numbers were released showing that the game is doing better (30% of GW sales) and if we're doing anecdotes then every store in my area is running monthly tournaments with some having them weekly

>those sales were last chance WHFB players

so little WHFB players exist that I doubt it.

Introducing Sigmarines BEFORE giving us [insert literally any army here] - Also making Khorne the posterchild of Chaos when -everyone- is fucking sick and tired of Khorne at this point.

You know AoS would have been the shit if it launched with Ironjawz Orcs VS Flesh Eater ghouls

>>47526707
I am sure that most of those numbers come from panic sales and the fact that they released more fantasy models in that timespan then they did at most points before AoS.

>>47526720
>Too bad the numbers were released showing that the game is doing better (30% of GW sales)
Source, except of whineseer?

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>>47526720
>Too bad the numbers were released showing that the game is doing better (30% of GW sales)

>>47526786
>>47526908
I don't have a source but I'd like to remind you that your game of choice is dead and it isn't coming back and it got replaced with a good one.

You've wasted all your time

Your game is dead

haha u lose i win

>>47526786
He doesn't have one aside from some rumor monger who said sales were up. Revenue was consistently down all of last year and its pretty clear GW is imploding and I have a real source on that

http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop%3A-denial

>>47525995

Underrated post

>>47526942
Except gw is going out of business anyway and the ip WILL be bought by someone else. AoS has only accelerated the decline.

>>47526946
Damn Games Workshop is dead and imploding just like I heard it was in 2001. This time will really be the one I'm sure

>>47526506
Why do you buttkissers always ignore the fact that GW could have just fixed the issues with WHFB that they caused because of their own greed? WHFB was one of the best selling games in North America before GW messed it up let alone Europe where it always did better.

Why would WHFB fans cry because GW stopped fucking with their game and jacking the prices?

>>47526942
Replaced by a good one as in 9th Age and Kings of War? Sounds about right.

>>47526786
>>47526908

30%. The percentage WHFB made up in GW sales, the percentage a single box outsold the entire WHFB line, the percentage it outsold the 40k line, the percentage AoS outsold WHFB, the percentage AoS outsold 40k, the percentage 40k outsold WHFB, and the percentage 40k was outsold by AoS.

Get your facts straight, everybody knows this stuff. It's not even a question anymore.

>>47526988
>This time
Its all the same implosion, its just taking longer than people hoped

>>47526942
I never played WHFB though. The only GW game I played was BFG, which is coming back.

>>47527034
>still no source
>hurr you should believe me because everyone else does

>good one

AoS is actually the worst wargame I have ever read the rules for.

Not a single thing about it is sensible or well made and its clear the people behind it do not even give a shit.

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>>47526707

Marking FB boxes down 50% would have the same effect. The sales volumes GW enjoyed in 2004 can never again be matched because, in 2016, even their alleged "deals" are still priced far into the tardosphere.

>>47527083
I was actually called 'insane' for saying plastic infantry of GW quality should be $1.50 each or less.

Yet other companies with lower sales pull it off.

>>47525979
Kirby.

>>47527063
>what went wrong
>the people behind it do not give a shit

/thread

>>47527153
>Implying Kirby was a real problem

>>47527140
>plastic model street values

Light infantry models: US$1-2ea
Heavy infantry: $2-3
Cav: 3-5
Sm Walkers: 5-7
Lg Walkers: 10-20
Jeep/ Rhino: 15-25
Lt Tank: 20-30
Hv Tank/ Fighter: 30-40
SH Tank/ GC/ Bomber: 40-50
18-24in Titans/ Gundams: 50-100

tl;dr: Chinaman pricing.

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>>47527179
>implying

It's a dead certainty. As long as Kirby was content to stay at the Yacht Club, the company did okay. The moment [in 2004] he staggered in to show everybody "how it was done" his meddling turned everything to shit. Even when everybody there worked toward saving their bacon in spite of his reverse Midas touch, stupid decisions would scuttle all momentum, and they'd be scrambling again.

>>47525979
First of all, annoying existing customers by failing to manage the previous editions of the Fantasy battles game so that they don't alienate newer players and older players alike. People seem to forget a large amount of people just quietly stopped playing through the first 2 years of 8th edition, not that it just wasn't bringing in new players. Focusing on large monster/machine kits whilst working for 40k (and very profitable), did not for fantasy as the base game didn't make them particularly useful for the most part, and did a lot to aggravate oldfags. Certain changes in aesthetic were often not well received either, like the changed Empire state troops set.

Secondly, killing off a pretty well loved setting. Whilst movie series and comics can reboot endlessly, the investment in time and money required of a game setting means this rarely works for them. White Wolf kinda got away with it for their setting but only because the setting had really become a clusterfuck and they had a reboot of everything to replace it. Age of Sigmar was not a direct reboot, but a follow-on that changed most of everything to the point of it being barely recognisable as having any connection to the warhammer fantasy world.
Setting matters for building and sustaining interest in a game long term, especially when the mechanics are nothing spectacular, and the company is mostly selling a 'your dudes' aspect.

Thirdly, the mechanics of AoS are crap. I've played/read a ton of wargames over the years, even helped make a few. AoS's rules are in the league of something you'd find thrown together in a weekend by someone wanting to just have a quick game with whatever was on hand, but by someone with very little idea of how to design a game other than through mimicry. This is a really shit basis for a commercial product even if giving the game away for free as a pdf, and being free is not an excuse for poor quality given how many decent, well designed free games there are out there.

>>47525979
No pointsystem to create your army was the main-issue.

>>47526672
>>47526720
Well, I heard that AoS is most times played by kids in GW-stores. Cause of the easier rules, compared to 40K.

>>47526942
>haha u lose i win

You have to be at least 18 to use this site

>>47527416
>dat pic
Wow! No wonder why they cannot compete even with FFG now.

>>47526720
>Too bad the numbers were released showing that the game is doing better (30% of GW sales)
AFAIK total GW sales have dropped. It might be possible that AoS has got percentage increase because 40K doesn't sell as much anymore.

>>those sales were last chance WHFB players
>so little WHFB players exist that I doubt it.
Kings of War players and other fantasy wargamers that really wanted stuff like hard plastic egyptian undead. Last Change to buy is a great way to encourage old players. Also, they most likely don't have future in AoS so why would AoS player buy soon-to-be unsupported faction?

>>47525979
New aesthetics direction
Cost cutting to optimize low quality quantity in art and miniatures designs
Fluff focused on selling stories first, worldbuilding second, rather than the other way around

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>>47526720
The numbers released only showed GW has spiralling even faster than before, what you are referring to is a mere rumor from someone who provided no source for it and has followed the trend of other aos rumors who followed the same path coming in the same period of GW reaperture to public channels:
>completely new rumormonger appears
>regurgitates an already known rumor
>says something that will be proved true by GW leaks in a matter of days
>"aos it's totally not a flop, guys! it's on par with 40k...not actually, but it's going to to! well at least it is exactly the same percentage of old fantasy anyway and getting lively!

>so little WHFB players exist that I doubt it.
considering how aos has had no adversiting outside the spread of word from the previous community, to assume that the majority of players is pro-aos or that aos managed to build a completely new customer-base from nothing greater than whfb is extremely stupid

panic buys are a real thing, or the price going on reselling sites wouldn't have been so high

>>47525979
No point cost at release, no communication, focus on Sigmarines and Khorne.
>>47525998
Greatly reduced the price of entry, free rules for everything, focus on storytelling.

Subpar art and aesthethics while incresing the price of the minis, no narrative rules or balance with a very bloated sert of rules (how many different shield rules exist for fuck sake) and destroying a beloved setting (the game was subpar at best in the last years so eh).

>>47526942
>Your game is dead
>haha u lose i win
My game lasted 30 fucking years you braindead moron, how many will last yours?

>>47526188
>The switch from 4 man ranks to 5 man ranks was a mistake

I know the horde rules were a little crazy, but I'm curious how going from 4 to 5 was a mistake. I started playing right with 7th so I'm not super familiar with the previous rules.

>>47526942
This is the fanbase you chose

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>>47525979
Not enough info on the new setting. Sure, we got Stormcast, we got some Chaos, this Alarielle plot started pretty soon, also some Nagash and Fyreslayers but that's it. No Aelves, no normal people, no Destruction. We just got Ironjawz. Grand Alliance books introduced some factions but for example Aelves from Silver Tower look much different then GA: Order ones, which were pretty much WFB Elves.

People love new Orruks, love Flesh-Eater Courts fluff, Mannfred plot is fun, Alarielle is getting a beetle and tree-aelves. But everything is moving so slow.

I used to play Dark Elves during 6th and 7th edition of WFB so I want to know more about Malekith/Malerion and Morathi. I'm waiting over a year already and still got pretty much nothing.

Also names are stupid. I know, copyrights but still. If I ever create my own Stormhost I'll rename every unit and hero, kinda like Space Wolves are still Space Marines but with different names slapped on their units.

Some of the art is ugly but some of it is great. Flesh-Eater Courts is mostly amazing. Everchosen is great, anime but still great. It's getting better and better.

I'm sad that WHFB is gone but Warhammer Fantasy lives on. We have awesome Total War: Warhammer and really fun Vermintide (now with Drachenfels DLC).

>>47528238
>focus on storytelling

That is an outright lie. Completely removing balance and making the rules awful does not make a game narrative.

And the models have got even more expensive but you are still encouraged to buy large armies.

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>>47527012
>GW could have just fixed the issues with WHFB
>GW
>fix instead of breaking further

>>47528325
It meant that the proper effective block size rose which meant in turn that the number of models that was needed for an army rose as well.

Despite how mundane they were, core infantry blocks were the ballast that held your line together so you do need them and for them to be effective.

So many tears here.

Heres a shock update, outside of the circlejerk here and on warseer, the game is doing pretty well. Communities are growing without the autistic shitheads who played WHFB. Prove me wrong, you cant because its true.

>tournaments and events getting larger and higher attendence
>Large active facebook groups popping up all the time
>Major upcoming events for the game and continued releases and production

Accept it, WHFB is dead, AoS is doing well. You can make as many of these shitposts as you want it wont change facts.

>>47529433
What the heck is that vampire dwarf idol?

>>47530062
I bet you buy GW water pots too

Glad to see it dropped by major tournaments in the US and Europe

>>47530079
You're so triggered its amazing.

>>47530062

Tournaments where the winner is entirely decided by whether or not the person you played enjoyed the game.

Those three bundle armies that GW released so you could get what the tournament winners had? One of those lost every single time.

>>47526650
>>47526595
>autism

>>47530079
>Glad to see it dropped by major tournaments in the US and Europe
What tournaments dropped it? Adepticon has a big AoS tournament, SCGT is a major AoS tournament.

I know it might be hard for you to justify the things you pull out of your ass but at least try.

>>47530119
All of what you said was incorrect. Only Throne of Skulls has the "Most Fun Opponent" Shit, and thats GW's own event.

SCGT uses victory points, and secondary objectives. No, one of those did not lose every singe time.

Heres the results, just so you understand how retarded what you said was.
>http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGTdownloads/SCGT16FinalStandings.pdf

>>47530139
If I wanted to play kiddie shit with forced humor, I'd join your Roll20 group. Actual humor comes about from gameplay, not measuring your fucking moustaches to find out who gets a +1.

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>>47530223
>>47530119

Heres the tournament pack too
http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGTdownloads/SCGT16TPV1.1.pdf

>>47530152
The US Warhammer Fantasy Masters switched to either KoW or Infinity. I suppose it isn't fair to say that they dropped it as they had the good sense to not pick up AoS in the first place.

I still can't see how anyone can take AoS seriously as a competitive game though. Even with a points values there are glaring flaws ranging from the sudden death rules to scarabs being able to burrow indefinitely.

>>47529997
Oh, gotcha, so just another "buy more models" thing.

Like I said I came in during 7th so my entire army was cavalry

>>47528238
>Greatly reduced the price of entry
This doesn't count when the method of doing so was removing any semblance of army construction
>free rules for everything
True, all 5 pages of rules were free
>focus on storytelling.
are you insane

>>47530104
t.AoSidf

>Decided to turn their built in fanbase into built in haters
>Release rules so broken it was amazing
>new setting utterly changed the antithetic to something that only appeals to a small group
>drop in model quality
>rise in model prices
>reduction in story telling with setting despite rules seemingly geared towards narrative play.


Basically gw told their existing fanbase to fuck off since they ruined the think that fanbase liked and decided to craft a new fanbase from the ground up with a considerably inferior product. Not strange it's regarded so poorly.

>>47530062
>AoS is doing well
What you do in your basement proves nothing pal.

>>47526388
>laughing at the colossal flop that is AoS
>pointing out a few reasons its awful
>tears

Nig please. No one is shedding a single tear. This shit is failing so hard I actually pity GW.

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>tfw excpet two starters my flgs has sold no AoS products

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>>47530062
>the game is doing pretty well
Oh the lies we spin to keep our worlds from collapsing on themselves. Tournaments do not a successful game make.

>Prove me wrong
Total War Warhammer being the fastest selling Total War game of the franchise, and the dwindling profits GW posts in its quarterly reports do a good enough job of that.

>>47530822
Who is this semen demon?
I don't even recognize the drawstyle to look it up by author.

>>47530643
I wouldn't pity them, if the nostalgia effect is hitting as hard everywhere else as I have seen happening locally, re-releasing the specialist games line (even if the games are reworked to be kinda poop as is apparently the case of the new warhammer quest?) then I can see GW making a fuckton of money off of those for minimal output.
Costs them about 5-10 times less to make all the plastic models for them now than it did back in the '90s after all and that was a major part of the expense.

>>47530870
That would actually require some common sense and I think it's pretty clear GW hasn't had any of that since the 90's.

>>47525979
Instead of solving the game problems they throw it to the trash and replaced it with a half assed set of rules and expected no one to note the difference.

>>47527758
They have to be including WHFB kits in that 30%. People are buying those kits more for KoW and 9th Age than for AoS.

WHFB's death has really caused a huge uptick in popularity if those two systems. And they are both the polar opposite of GW in philosophy and approach.

>>47528238
>focus on storytelling
You really expect me to believe that with 2nd grade tier fantasy names like Dracothian for a dragon?

>>47528396
Thats the AoS fan though. I visit a few different hobby/fansites, and the one constant I see in AoS supporters is juvenile stupidity.

I still can't sell my other half of my sigmar starter, Nobody wants it ;-;

>>47531132
I literally would not take it for free. I stopped buying from GW after they pulled the rug out from WHFB after leading people on with End Times.

I sincerely believe they are going to shrink to about half of their current size, and probably give up to a buyout. They are demonstrating they learned nothing from the mistakes they made with WHFB - because they are doing an even bigger job on 40k.

>>47531207
I bought it because it was £54, that's actually a really reasonable price for how much stuff you get.

>>47531207
GW will last for quite a while yet unless they do something even worse than AoS.

They don't have any debt and they are still making a profit even if its slowly sliding year by year in a growing industry. Long term though AoS really did not help by making the models even more expensive and causing so much bad will among the people who introduce new players.

>>47531221
But why would you buy it in the first place?

No matter how cheap it is, it's still garbage. I'd never buy ten pounds of rotten fruit, feces, and cat carcasses, no matter if it was £.01 or £1000

>>47531630
The models are pretty good and make nice proxies for other stuff.

>>47531132
Try Ebay as with most things
You should be able to get somewhere near MSRP with it

>>47530830
It's actually kind of insane how fast TW:WH has sold. I mean, it broke 500k owners on steam this weekend, and that's only seven days.

I guess it helps that the game managed to not be an absolute mess when released. I've only had to deal with one bug in the game that was a real issue.

>>47531778
Invocation of nehek literally doesn't work so vampires are nothing like they should be.

Everything else is okay.

>>47531530
Their 40k releases over the past 2 years have killed the huge playerbase that existed in Phoenix, AZ. No one here plays 40k anymore, and it used to be wildly popular. Escalation caused a huge number to quit, the other release that saw a large number stop playing was the Eldar codex.

GW is so fucking stupid. Alienating the people who market their game to newbies is suicide. They are so out of touch its unreal.

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>>47525979
>What went wrong?
well,
>no points because the people who play tested it was close friends and knew not be a bastards to each other.
> Hero Models cost in range of 30-50 fucking dollars. not including the Fuck-Huge models
>destroyed a decent low fantasy setting for generic WoW setting.
> The Empire is reduced to Imperial Guard tire bullshit, and not the Goodly Good guys defending Humanity from the forces of Chaos.
If their is anything they did right, it was the 85 dollar start collecting sets.

>>47531917
I live in Phoenix and the game is fine

why do anti gw shills always lie

>>47532097
>me and my 4 friends play still, so the player base is still exactly as healthy!

>>47532097
How long have you been playing? Because 3 years ago at Imperial the place was full of 40k games on a friday night. Now you barely see anyone playing it ever, except for the tournaments.

The new place in Scottsdale has zero 40k players. Thats straight from the owners mouth.

The GW in N Scottsdale has a tiny playerbase of cancerous that guys.

>>47532182
And the place is Mesa shut down earlier this year.

So idk what you mean by 'the game is fine'. Compared to what it was pre 6th edition, it is literally dead here.

I don't really know how this game is going, but by personal experience, I saw people buy only old WFB models (that are now labeled AoS), in the GW store i know, then go to the FLGS nearby and buy square bases

>>47532182
>>47532205
a few neckbeard stores shutdown

Hat's Games in Tucson shutdown too (another neckbeard store)

this has no bearing on if Warhammer is dying since stores are still running tournaments and events frequently.

>>47532280
Imperial Outpost had an active 40k playerbase of ~50 regulars and another ~50 guys you'd see now and then.

The tables were filled with games of 40k two nights a week, and you'd see people playing it other days all the time.

Now you might see two random people playing it on a friday night. And rarely any other time.

So yeah, Id say that says something about how the game is doing in Phoenix, especially since Imperial is a Mecca for tabletop games. If 40k were going to popular anywhere it would be there. Just like it was for years, until 6th edition and everything after made everyone quit.

Goid thing is that now there are a lot of different things being played. So its more interesting to hang out up there.

>>47531859
it works, it's just that spells don't scale with unit size.

same reason why direct damage spells mostly blow on ultra but rape on small

>>47525979
The business and consumer sides were covered already ITT.

A gripe I had with it is how impossible it is to imagine any of this Heavy Metalesque new setting.

Seriously, there's not a single thing so far in AoS that I could relate to. It's the WoW lore problem all over again, everything is TOO expansive and generally hard to relate to, with characters that are godlike.

There's no real little guy or perspective point in the fluff.

>>47532280

what are neckbeard stores?

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>>47525979

for me it feels like a clusterfuck and I have no idea what the fuck is happening or where its happening

I just feel, whenever I try to get into it, I'm reading jabberwocky or some poorly translated, incomplete dictation of a mythology. I can't really get into my dudes since I have no idea what is going on or why, or what sort of lives these people are going to lead, what to strive for.

I don't need much, Brettonias "Gotta go find that grail" gave enough for me to work on

>>47532663
Stores that he doesn't like

Read: Don't play AoS and have standards

>>47532663
Stores run by a neckbeard who likes games more than he has business sense.

Characterized by having a neckbeard owner and then turning it into a neckbeard clubhouse with his friends and a select group being part of the in crowd and then treating everyone else like they don't belong. Poor hygiene and that guys abound.

>>47532832
Who typically end up baby sitting teenage kids every week night and all open hours saturday and sunday for parents that drop their kids off and never buy anything.

>>47532663
>>47532832
Also known as - a complete strawman. When a geek company makes shitty business decisions, and these business decisions destroy lives, they can count on their fans to say that any lives that were destroyed totally deserved that destruction.
I heard all this shit back during the d20 glut; fuck, I've heard it from old farts trying to dismiss the satanic panic. It's an ancient, time-tested, and completely bullshit concept.

>>47532699
You're aren't alone. I keep asking AoS players to fill the holes for me, but all it does is leave more holes in the story. I can't get into it because I have no idea what's going on.

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>>47525979
No Brets

>>47526346
>Abandonment of tournaments altogether.
Thats why Games Workshop advertise a tournament, released a bundles of models copying the armies that taken 1st, 2nd and 3rd place (This can easily be seen as bad), and they are releasing a point system specifically for tournament play.

>>47532925
Lol what the fuck does any of that have to do with neckbeard stores. "Neckbeard store" isn't a strawman, its the gross ass store run by some fucking neckbeard and it garners business with other neckbeards or people without any other options. It checks all the negative gamer stereotypes of poor hygiene, anti-social tendencies in its patrons, etc. I'd wager at least 3/4 of people on /tg/ has an experience with a store like this.

>>47532097

I have a feeling you're completely full of shit. Anyone who lives in Phoenix and plays 40k outside of their house is aware that the playerbase went from huge and thriving to nearly extinct. Unless you're one of the handful of autistic retards that hangs out at the GW on Frank Lloyd Wright. In which case you cant be taken remotely serious.

>>47532952
he said what went wrong.

>>47533082
They are releasing a points system because their idiotic game design appealed to almost no one.

Its a panic button reaction to the colossal failure AoS has been so far.

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>>47533202

>>47533216
I'm sorry, but i didn't mean to offend the "Good Luck you didn't get capture buildings" Knights.

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>>47532097
>Anecdotal evidence

Yeah I call bullshit.

>>47533239
No, you seem more intent on just being an idiot than anything else.

So again. Worst. Bait. Ever.

>>47533100

You have a lot of hatred about people running stores who aren't posh and proper

After a long time of blantatly assfucking their players they had no concept of what actually works/sells because they figured their cum sluts would probably buy anything. So they dreamt up age of sigmar with no real inclination that it was a complete abomination. And just because someone is ok with being buttfucked, that doesnt mean they will switch the dildo out for another one just because it exists.

>>47533213
The only, only thing I can see being fun is if they do the Chaos Warbands, Path of Glory style game where your warband is totally randomized. This could offer some quick, fun games (it's not supposed to be balanced) without having to go heavy for it like 8th or trying to convert Mordheim or LotR (or Legends of the Old West/Legends of the high seas).

>>47526731
>Ironjawz Orcs VS Flesh Eater ghouls

Stop dividing the factions even further.
The point of redoing the setting was to consolidate the game, but they continue to work against the potential of resetting to begin with.

This goes for 40k and AoS: Formations are literally a bigger cancer than the spammers used to be.

>>47533881
>formations are cancer

This guy gets it. Formations are gargantuan creature spam were the things that finally drove me out of the game after 25 years. AoS pretty much took everything I dislike about 7th editioion 40k and made a game out of it.

>>47529433
>People love new Orruks,
People love new Orks conversion kits.
>love Flesh-Eater Courts fluff, Mannfred plot is fun,
>Alarielle is getting a beetle and tree-aelves.
And none cares about it.
>I'm waiting over a year already and still got pretty much nothing.
But you already have new Dark Eldar codex.

>>47535656
Shut up, Slav.

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CA avenged him.

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>>47535944
No.

I killed him.

>>47535952
Say it to my steamtanks.

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>>47535952
>mfw my witch hunter blams Archaon with his trusty pistol while screeching about heretics.

pssh, nothing personnel ... heretic.

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>>47530844
[Syati Kamaboko] Kaichou no Iinari!
http://exhentai.org/g/338849/3990ee23fb/

>>47525979
everything

>>47525979
I never cared much for the fantasy setting, and I know very little of it, though now that I have started playing the new total war game, I have gotten somewhat curious.
How much does the Age of Sigmar setting differ from the old fantasy setting?

>>47535656
>But you already have new Dark Eldar codex.
Lol what?
The Deldar codex is hardly new at this point.

>>47530062
>claims facts
>posts no sources

>says the community is shitheads free
>he's the greatest shithead posting in this thread

Wew, lad

>>47536405
>How much does the Age of Sigmar setting differ from the old fantasy setting?

Age of Sigmar is the continuation of the WHFB storyline set in a different setting.

As you know, WHFB takes place in the nameless WHFB world. It was a setting of low fantasy and high fantasy parts mixed in with historical themes. The main plotline of WHFB was Chaos vs the Mortal races of the world, The mortal races struggle to prevent Chaos from destroying their world

AoS is set in 8 planes of existence what were created when the Winds of Magic fled the destruction of the WHFB to space and became reality spanning realms. These are called the Mortal Realms. The setting is very high fantasy all the time and features a lot of mystical and mythological themes (Think Marvel Asgard, DC New Gods, and He-Man). The main plotline of AoS is about the forces of Order leading a grand crusade against the tyranny of the forces of Chaos that are occupying the Mortal Realms. It's an in-verse of the situation of the WHFB world in that Order are the ones on the offensive.

>>47535952
I stomped that bitch with Grimgor.

>>47526720
>Too bad the numbers were released showing that the game is doing better (30% of GW sales) and if we're doing anecdotes then every store in my area is running monthly tournaments with some having them weekly

Yeah, numbers were released by a troll here who rote an email to natfka. He even copied the email here.

I mean if you believed that 30% even for a moment you are stupid af.

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>>47536468
>and He-Man
I am now imagining Nagash with Skeletor's voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S3mTdb9Ups

>>47536405
>How much does the Age of Sigmar setting differ from the old fantasy setting?
Radically. It's completely different in scale and tone. It's more like He-Man than Warhammer Fantasy.

>>47526988

The differnece is that Dawn of War saved them. Good thing that they have Warhammer: Total War breaking franchise records and being the fastest selling Total War game to save them again, now with their other system... Ohh w8...

>>47536540
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNz6eHfsESQ

>>47526720
>>those sales were last chance WHFB players
>so little WHFB players exist that I doubt it.

That must be the reason they had to do a second print run for the last chance stuff. 40k did not get any second print run of their last chance models, might be there are even less 40k players than fantasy? GW dead then.

>>47530284
Ah, so if I rope in a drawfag, can I get 15 pack for free?

>>47530152
>Adepticon has a big AoS tournament

21 people played AoS at adepticon, 4 or 5 of them invited podcasters.

So far the AoS tournament worth of note was SCGT, and that clearly displayed how broken the game is, as 5k points $800-1k lists were 6 out of 8 in the top 8, featuring 4-5 gretaer daemons/verminlords all lists.

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>>47533100
the only store in my country who sells anything related to tabletop is like that. Not so shitty, but yeah a neckbeard-run club. they are helpful, but really patronising sometimes

>>47533881
>>47534284
What are formations?
I stopped caring about fantasy around EotT and never cared about 40k, so really, what are these formations you guys are talking about?

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>>47526547
>mfw

Idea for new point system: GW's price of the models in GBP

>>47525979
the initial rules were a clusterfuck

their customer base was not ready for a system without point costs

players go into the game with different expectations

lack of player understanding about how list building works for age of sigmar exacerbates all of this

new khorne designs were not that great, and you don't get a second chance at a first impression. If they had opened with the new Orruk designs people would have felt really differently I think.

Sigmarines could have been easily very cool. Show them with swords instead of those stupid hammers, have them with their helmets off and give them characterization. Then they would have really rocked. Look at the retributors and the relictor. Those models are rad.

>>47536540
That's exactly the tone they were going for

>>47536827
>If they had opened with the new Orruk designs people would have felt really differently I think.
I don't know about everyone else, but the 'Orruk' designs were pretty disappointing. Too clean and smooth for my tastes.

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>>47536848
the yellow was a very bad choice

>>47536865
Palette isn't the only problem I see there.

>>47536887
idk, I think the red and orange looks pretty sweet, and I do like some aspects of the sculpt

>>47536827
>not ready

No the lack of points was just an objectively bad decision.

You need a way to balance the game, especially for pick up games. Scenarios with set forces and 'take whatever seems right' are not sufficient.

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>>47535952
No. He met an ignoble end at the hands of a Doom Diver.

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>>47528221
>Got an exam in a couple of hours
>Have to take the bus to a campus on the other side of Nottingham
>Have to pass by this fucking statue every fucking time

>>47536841
Sounds great desu.

>>47536865
I like the animal, very Mononoke- The Orruk doesn't look terrible either, but not something that speaks to my aesthetic sensibilities.

>>47537431
only real problem I have with it is the serrated tusks

those just look out of place

>>47528238
>focus on storytelling
They should have fucking made a 4th Edition of War hammer Fantasy Roleplay that wasn't shit if they wanted to make a game about storytelling, honestly.

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>>47536540
I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME SIGMAR!!
MYAH!

>>47537453
I can't stand how all their beards are perfectly straight. There's just no motion to a lot of sculpts for this game. Yeah, they have shit going in every direction, but the models don't feel coherent.

>>47530643
It isn't a flop bro, the company has turned a corner and only the most bitter neckbeards are still whining. GW has actually started doing the shit that you've been demanding or else you'll stop buying your two pots of paint a year and GW stores are the busiest they've been in years. AoS is an easy game to get into, easy to play and the lack of reams of rules actually makes it fun, the conditions now are the closest they were to the golden age of warhammer since I started collecting 27 years ago and a LOT of children *GASP* are getting into it and like it or not that's the long term future of the hobby. Weep more.

>>47537576
What motivates people like you to come onto the internet and tell such obvious lies? It is an objective fact that GW is still slowly declining in sales and market share, if anything AoS only made it worse.

Also anything GW does is irrelevant until they deal with the price problem. Their obscene prices are killing them and drive away most new players. They will also never bring back the huge numbers of people they drove away by canning WHFB either. AoS was such a shock it even drove away some 40k players.

You don't seem to understand how suicidally stupid it is to drive away the people who actually interact with and recruit new players.

>>47530904
>GW won't release specialist games because that would require common sense
Yeah man they'll never bring back Warhammer Quest and no way they'll ever release Epic again. And no way would they make their rules free or lower the buy in for a main game to where £30 on ebay will get you an army or release a starter that actually has everything you'll ever need or bring back pocket money boxes of units you want including paints or have battalion and army boxes with a +50% discount. Yeah man, same old GW.

>>47531057
>People are buying those kits more for KoW and 9th Age than for AoS
No they really aren't man, this post is actually sad in it's delusion.

>>47531132
You can sell it on ebay for £10 per element, it'll sell straight away. If you would rather use 4chan for selling stuff rather than ebay then you're not going to get very far bro.

>>47537689
>huge numbers of people
>recruit new players
>WHFB

Anon, we all loved Fantasy as a setting, but if you think the game possessed any of those characteristics then you are totally deluded.

>>47531630
You are very cringey.

>>47537689
Not only are the sets mad expensive, nobody is selling used sets for cheap. So there's no way to get into the miniatures game without avoiding major expense, unless you get lucky and someone gives you their stuff.

Looks like I'll have to stick to Dark Heresy.

>>47527416
What was the fuck you tyranids codex?
I'm not well-informed when it comes to 40k.

>>47532172
>Me and my 1 friend don't play so GW is ogre!

>>47537453
>serrated tusks
>out of place
>doesn't notice how metallic they look
>or sharp
>or bladed
>definitely tusks, not choppas jammed into the pig's gums
Sarcasm aside, I reckon that idea's pretty neat. It's definitely pretty Orcy.

>>47525979
On the commercial and design side? Lots of things.

One thing I can be thankful for AoS for? Utterly bereft of good fluff with believable factions that can be related to from GW, I was forced to look elsewhere, and I realized that many settings I'd disregarded or looked down on due to poor first impressions are actually really good. I never realised that the Iron Kingdoms setting was so generally well conceived for example, and I barely knew Dropzone existed.

So, thanks GW, you helped me see that there were plenty of great settings in tabletop stuff, as good as WHFB and faaaaar superior to AoS.

>>47537727
>warhammer quest

Set in the AoS setting, what is your point?

And only idiots think 50% of an insane price is a good deal.

>>47537989
That is the only good thing to come out of this mess.

Warhammer Fantasy communities were devastated across the globe but lots of other games are being played now as a result.

>>47538036
Better than 100% of an insane price.

>>47537576
Do you really belive what you are typing..? I wont even start correcting your wrong belives cause I'm sick of you now.
>>47537745
>You can sell it on ebay for £10 per element
Yeah, probably not. It was fun, in the week before WQ: ST, watching prices spiraling down on miniature from the game while no one was buying them. Now some of the models are on €5-6 while vendors sits on a pile of unsold ones. And Silver Tower models are objectively better than starter ones.

>>47537368
take a pic, I heard it is all fucked up because they forgot to put a protective layer on it

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>>47537803
6th edition
It stung even worse because somehow that book had even worse rules than the 5th edition one, when everyone said there was no way it could get worse.

The gist of changes was that Nids got point hikes for absolutely no reason across the board, and the synapse/feral behavior tables put a massive constraint on listbuilding because now, your Nid army needed overpriced lynchpin models to actually work the way it was intended, let alone maintain direct control of it.

>>47525979
Not enough tears from the fanbase.

>>47525995
It would not have done well as a specialist game either.

AoS is just not something people wanted or needed. Its a game with a shallow setting, expensive models and awful rules in a a skirmish market full of better options.

>>47536749
More

>>47536865
While someone might like it, i'll always prefer gorbad ironclaw to this

Old orc models, while goofy and somewhat ugly, had much more soul in them

>>47525979
everything

>>47536729
Buy X specific units, put them on a table, get specific bonus

It essentially kills list building in favor of making people buy huge centerpiece kits

>>47525998
>What went right?
objectively lower cost of entry

>>47525979
>What went wrong?
Almost everything else

The new world is so high concept that there is no room for humans. They literally took the humanity out of their game.

That and the lore also really sucks.

>>47535656
I like Flesh Eater Courts.

But then again I'm a 9th Age player who assembled his army years ago and refuse to buy any AoS models, so maybe I'm not the ideal demographic.

The beetle and tree elves are fucking stupid though.
>>47536540
Would Nagash call a stalemate so children can enjoy Christmas?

>>47537895
I just don't like it. They're Black Orcs, but even more Orky.

To me Savage Orcs are the primary Orc, everything else is a sidekick you take to fill up combat roles. But Orruks don't even have a useful role like Black Orcs shutting down Animosity, they exist just to exist.

>>47527416
Wait, if that codex was the problem wouldn't it come before that sudden drop rather than at the bottom of it?

>>47537345
if you read the actual rules for deployment you will see there is a way to balance the game, and it does about as well a job as point systems do

List building is something done during the deployment phase. One player picks a unit from their collection and deploys it, then the other can choose a unit in response. At any point either player can simply say "I'm done" and if the opponent keeps deploying a bunch of stuff they will get saddled with the sudden death rules and probably lose.

A peculiarity of this system, as well as a peculiarity of one of the more popular point systems, is that it favors small elite units over hordes. Whether or not this is a disadvantage is unclear.

Also the more of the warscrolls for the WFB units were not particularly good and lacked a lot of synergy or really anything interesting. The newer ones did better in this regard.

Over the long term, basically giving up on game design was a bad move. Balance was never great for either of the two warhammers, but there was a time when they tried. Big questions got FAQ'd, rules were flavorful, major balance fuck ups at least mostly looked accidental, etc. "we're a model company, not a game company" is a suspicious sounding dodge to me, but even granting that that actually is how your consumers mostly are, the game players are still the centerpiece of the word of mouth marketing scheme. That means you need your games to actually be good.

To more narrowly focus on AoS, the launch was really poorly handled. They were incredibly douchy to the FB fan base at basically every opportunity they got, sometimes without even an apparent profit motive, and engendered a lot of anger. AoS could be the best thing since blowjobs and it would still have a dedicated base of haters. Not something you want your word of moth advertised game burdened with. WFB could have gotten a much gentler send off.

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>>47525979
It wasn't called Age of I, Cato Sicarius

>>47540981
WFB players weren't spending money

>>47541011
Yes, because the game was priced out of the market

There are many ways that they could have approached that problem, and AoS wasn't a good one

>>47541011
Because of the poor design choices mentioned in that very post.

People were buying less WHFB because GW tried to raise profits through a scheme of making huge tacky overpriced models essential to all armies and bloating the number of models required to play. This, as any retard would have guessed it would, put people off... and compounded other problems, like the extremely poor balance of the current edition, the increasingly less well-designed models, and the fact that GW absolutely refused to update certain armies, making them flat-out unplayable.

GW killed WHFB with their incompetence. They had a player base perfectly willing to buy, and command over possibly the most iconic high fantasy setting besides Arda, and they fucked it all up by making the game a horrible chore to collect and play.

>>47541030
WFB players were not the target audience of AoS, which was one of the things the launch conveyed really poorly.

I think what they should have done instead was make WFB a specialist game, with the rules available in digital formats only, and stop supporting it, rather than shut it down entirely.

And the game wasn't really "priced out of the market." Most WFB players had massive armies already built up over decades, and the design of WFB makes it almost impossible for new players. These two things make it no surprise really that it wasn't selling. Also by that point, most of the WFB line was really old, but they didn't want to remake a kit that people stopped buying ten years ago because they had enough already.

WFB are a bunch of whiny misers who didn't spend money and did little to welcome new players. Catering to them was causing the company to bleed slowly. Better to try something new, even if that might not have worked out.

>>47541080
>They had a player base perfectly willing to buy
no they didn't

the price hikes were a response to sales dipping, and the bloating of armies was to get them to stop just sitting on their ten year old collection. Neither really worked and instead people just bitched about it. Was that a bad business decision? probably. Had they not done that would the outcome have been better? no

>>47540781
Only if it was called Nagashmas.

>>47541141
>Had they not done that would the outcome have been better? no
You mean yes, right? The increased entry cost discouraged plenty of people from getting into it, had it not been increased there would have been more customers and incomes.

>>47540955
>it favors small elite units over hordes.
It has two major strategic effects that I can tell

1. There is no reason to not take the most elite unit available amongst your equal wounds/model options.

This has three negative impacts that I can see.

It creates a "timmy card" option in unit selection where new players may purchase a unit of troops that is strictly inferior, in a points system it is more likely that a unit will be inferior on a per points basis, but still cost less actual points.

This encourages the use of higher wound models, because units containing higher wound models doesn't immediately lose usefulness as they begin to take wounds. This rate of deterioration is also true under a points system, but typically high wounds/model units cost an appropriately higher amount of points in an attempt to weaken the incentive for high wound models.

Armies get a lot of flavor from the mainstay units, but if the mainstay unit is a strictly inferior option then you will never see what would in lore be be bulk of an army actually represented on the table.

2. Assuming you are playing with the wounds limitation, this removes a dimension of strategy that was integral to swarming armies.

If you field the same number of wounds as your opponent then armies like skaven are at a distinct disadvantage because their effectiveness per wound is so low. Typically they can win by bringing more wounds to the table, but now that exposes them to the potentially disastrous sudden death rules, which are particularly easy to accomplish against armies that have low efficiency per wound models.

Consider if this were to happen in a game of 40k. Let's say I'm playing smurfs and you are tyranids, if you limit your wounds total to equal my army you will struggle, but if you bring enough wounds to overwhelm me, then I can just win by killing your general

AoS took an unbalance game and removed the only mechanic that provided some balance

>>47541141
>WFB players were not the target audience of AoS
Which is stupid considering they had no advertising that would attract people who weren't in the hobby to begin with.

>>47541184
that's true, but I don't think WFB was getting too many new players

another option would have been to last chance most of the WFB line, change the molding process for new kits to be a lot cheaper but make each new release a limited run

people probably would have whined about that too, but it would have kept selling models to the existing fans while being just as (un)appealing to new players

>>47541141
>WFB players were not the target audience of AoS

Incredibly stupid, as they did no actual advertising, and now they're stuck with a dead on arrival product.

>and the design of WFB makes it almost impossible for new players

It was accessible to new players for thirty odd years. It only became inaccessible due to GWs retarded design choices and constant price hiking. Do you really think the style of game just magically became unapproachable for no reason? GW kept pushing people away by actively making the game less accessible. They made it require more models, they made it require certain models, they refused to support certain armies, etc etc etc... this is the kind of thing that leads to people finding a game inaccessible, not some strange magic that just starts happening suddenly.

>>47541187
>It creates a "timmy card" option in unit selection where new players may purchase a unit of troops that is strictly inferior, in a points system it is more likely that a unit will be inferior on a per points basis, but still cost less actual points.
This happens all the time in 40k. Look at Nobz.

In 40k you can have a battle-forged list entirely of tau gundams, so I wouldn't call it balanced either

>>47541263
>now they're stuck with a dead on arrival product.
anecdotes being what they are, but I've seen AoS have more action on table tops this year than I have WFB.

>>47541283
>This happens all the time in 40k. Look at Nobz.
I totally agree that 40k isn't balanced, but it is conceivable that with appropriate changes to the points cost of models that choosing those units might look better. Without a points cost mechanism they handicap any ability to attempt that balance. Whether or not a game ends up balanced, intentionally removing your capacity to balance it strikes me as a bad decision.

>>47541283
Anecdotes are one thing.

Statistics based on market share and overall profits is another. SOMETHING went wrong around the time GW shifted to AoS that caused shareholder faith in them to fucking plummet, and their profits continue to accelerate downward.

We can't know what the exact cause is, as GW don't release individual sales figures for products, and we don't know what else may be going on within the company. But the increasingly poor health of GW as a company is all we have to go on.

>>47541330
It's worth pointing out that a drop in share price does not mean that profits were low, but rather than future profits are expected to be low. Stock price is an indication of future expectation, not an indictment of past performance.

>>47541283
>In 40k you can have a battle-forged list entirely of tau gundams, so I wouldn't call it balanced either

"This guy here managed to drop his plate when bringing out a meal, so from now on, no plates in this restaurant. In fact, no tables either. Just dump the food in our customer's laps. It'll be fine."

Something being done poorly elsewhere is not a good argument against doing that thing. There are multiple great examples of mostly balanced systems all over the world of wargaming. Dropzone, Infinity, Warmahordes, etc etc etc... I doubt any of them are 100% perfectly balanced, but they maintain balance well enough that in most cases playing these games against a certain faction is not an entirely futile endeavor.

>>47541330
>Statistics based on market share and overall profits is another. SOMETHING went wrong around the time GW shifted to AoS that caused shareholder faith in them to fucking plummet, and their profits continue to accelerate downward.
They've never released actual sales figures (and no company would)

around that same time they also re-opened their specialist game division, incurring a large amount of expense

I believe it was mostly just shareholder panic, but that also the initial AoS sales were below expectations. I don't really know how it is doing now sales wise, but they likely know what to expect now.

And I don't think anyone at all bought the tree people. I think they are cool though

>>47525979
They tried to make it more 'accessible' by making it more like warcraft, forgetting the fact that the warcraft market is cornered by warcraft already.

>>47541232
Another option would have been to let vidya handle the growth of people interested, if not in the game, in the setting (undoubtedly one of the major strong points that keep customers in), have starting boxes with discount and the basic rules available for free online (to better update) in a artless and fluffless version to help newcomers, invest in high (fw-tier) quality of campaign book, compendia of optional rules, background and artwork galleries, release less but all around better designed multikits to maximise shelf space, lower the number of mandatory models and make the game scalable, perhaps dividing the huge model lines in thematic subdivisions that can work independently to better encourage people in getting into more factions, reopen contact with the community and its tournaments scene, introduce part of the new models through deals and specialist games and lastly have minor retcon and advancements to allow more freedom in terms of variety and scope of stories.

The mortal realms could have been introduced as planes that generated with the great catastrophe.
The sigmarines could have been a hugely successful model line if they followed more normal knights designs, imperial symbolisms, blanche's direction and less the space marines.
The timeline could have advanced some decades more if archaon's plan wasn't a straightforward "it's you or me", what if it had to do with a vague number of other objectives all over the world and the realms before the end could happen?
The inclusion of higher magical elements could have worked if they didn't overshadow the lower magical ones and were kept relatively more distant and unknown from the pov of the narration.

GW didn't do everything wrong with AoS, but they fucked up way too much on the way.

>>47541184
Or maybe they should have fucking waited for Total War Warhammer to release before shelving the franchise. Now they have plenty of players interested in a dead franchise.

Good job GW.

>>47525979
You posted....

>>47541563
>Another option would have been to let vidya handle the growth of people interested, if not in the game, in the setting
Vermintide was awesome and made me interested in the setting for sure, but I get the feeling despite being a huge commercial success that Vermintide did not really get mass market appeal, and probably not that many people into the setting.

I did not start playing WFB because of vermintide, only reading

>Battletech strategy vidya comes out
>No anecdotes of new Battletech players in stores/clubs

>Warmachine strategy vidya comes out (on early access)
>No anecdotes of new Warmachine players in stores/clubs

>Warhammer strategy vidya comes out
>IT WOULD HAVE BROUGHT PLAYERS IN THE GAME GUIS

What the fuck.

>>47541630
are we forgetting about 40k and how many players that's most likely generated?

also
>wanting anecdotes as proof of something working
are you serious

>>47541621
I am pretty sure that he is reffering to the Total War game

>>47541630
You realize that the Warhammer video game outsold all of those by great margins, right? Look at what Dawn of War did for 40K.

>>47541630
>A game literally no-one has heard about
>Early Access shitshow
>Five fucking games

>>47541644
>wanting anecdotes
Well, nobody publishes sales figures, so we can't comment on that, all we can do is gauge interest. Except with GW of course, everyone knows their sales numbers somehow.

>>47541663
What DID dawn of war do for 40k? I was in the hobby back then and never saw this big influx of players, either in stores or on forums - you never saw people posting things like "hey, I liked this DOW thing, what can you tell me about the tabletop game?" But retrospectively, it's taken as given that it recruited loads of people.

>>47541747
It increased interest in the game massively, and not neccesarily all at once. Even the manager at my GW store got into 40K because of Dawn of War. Canning Warhammer right before the game came out is a great example of a wasted opportunity.

>>47541747
>What DID dawn of war do for 40k?

Easily doubled, maybe even tripled the playerbase. And it continued to bring people in even six or seven years after its release.

DoW was fucking huge for 40K. Ask an early twenties or late teens 40K player how they got into the game and there's a good chance the answer will be DoW.

>>47541747
>Except with GW of course, everyone knows their sales numbers somehow.

We don't know sales numbers for singular products or product lines. We know their overall profits the vector of said profits, though. This information gets posted a lot.

>>47541866
>Easily doubled, maybe even tripled the playerbase. And it continued to bring people in even six or seven years after its release.

Proof?

>>47541896
>asking for proofs in anything but logic & math

>>47525979
>What didn't go wrong?
Ftfy

>>47541908
It allowed me to enjoy many salty tears.

>>47541905
Supporting your claims is a thing in any rigorous discipline you shit stain.

Also in discussions involving this kind of thing.

Warhammer Fantasy was a dead end both Fictionally and thematically as a game.

Grognards hate it because they can't abuse rules and look fondly on a setting that hasn't changed in over 30 years.

If people had any sense, they would have given up on this game a long time ago. It reminds me of another "Age of" game which alienated the playerbase and came with a bunch of awful minis along with the terrible rules.

>>47541931
This isn't a discussion.

It's you hating a game, then shouting PROOFS that even if he gave you, would be dismissed unless they are straight from GW's coffers themselves.

GW do not publish numbers.

>what went wrong
Literally nothing. I'm enjoying the tears of WHFBabbies. The game is finally fun, easy to learn, cheaper to play and more likely to attract new players.
>m-muh competivity
Feel free to fuck off to 9th age. Don't expect to be relevant though.
>m-muh balanced gaymes
There are plenty of ways to make balanced lists. Then again, if you play against tryhards, you brought it upon yourselves
>m-muh mathhammer
Yeah, because THAT was fun.

AoS is the best thing that happened to warhammer ever, the sooner you accept it the better.

>>47541011

Because GW's solution to everything was raise model count/raise prices.

Look at Warmahordes. It's doing FANTASTIC. A friend and I can both buy the Battelgroup sets for $40. Boom, you've got a nice little force, and 3-5 models. Expand slowly from there.

GW didn't give a FUCK about the starting player, or if they did, expected them to drop $150+ for a starting force, read a fuckton of rules, oh and don't forget to paint these 50 models.

>>47540770
>objectively lower cost of entry
Now nobody has to play warhammer at all, meaning you can spend £0 on it.

>>47541011

I'm doubtful that that couldn't be fixed, but even granting that point completely, they still could have gotten a gentler send off. If they had all just quietly grumbled and toddled off to hunk for discount neck shampoo instead off being provoked into maximum shitpost mode, AoS would be much better off.

>>47541960
>Look at Warmahordes. It's doing FANTASTIC. A friend and I can both buy the Battelgroup sets for $40. Boom, you've got a nice little force, and 3-5 models. Expand slowly from there.

Most of those Battlegroups are literally trap options that have some of the worst games ever, and with Warmahordes, where balance is on a knife-edge constantly due to overmeddling, it means people literally wasted $40.

Warmahordes is worse value for money than GW stuff.

>>47541989
Who exactly here HAD to play Warhammer.

>>47541011
Other people have pointed out why it's dumb to blame the playerbase for this but I'll also note this has never been proven, it's always been speculated. And we've seen GW really are that dumb, so I think it's far more likely Warhammer was just less profitable than 40k.

>>47541955

>I'm enjoying the tears of the bourgeoisie. Russia is finally equal, easy to live, cheaper to feed your family and more likely to attract immigrants.

>Feel free to fuck off to the USA. Don't expect to be relevant though.

>There are plenty of ways to make a living. Then again, if you want to be rich, you brought it upon yourself by being greedy

>Yeah, because NUMBERS were fun

>The Bolshevik Revolution is the best thing that ever happened to Russia, the sooner you accept it the better.

>>47541408
>They've never released actual sales figures (and no company would)
>what is virtually every other publicly traded company to exist

>>47542023
>Liking a more rules light game that has better internal balance is somehow equal to being a marxist.

>>47541934
It's amazingly easy to abuse AoS's rules. For one, just put down a forest. Lo and behold, you win the game.

>>47542054

>better internal balance

lol

>>47541954
>>47541905
Your posted no logic or math. It's just your feeling.

Therefore the claim that DoW posted 40K sales is to be dismissed.

>>47542023
>all of that just to look like a retard
Wew lad

>>47542009
>Who exactly here HAD to play Warhammer.
A lot of people did, if it was the only game people played or if GW was the only nearby hobby store, especially in the 90s. But AoS is utterly terrible, so now you can just ignore it and play other, better games, saving you money on GW's overpriced shit.

>>47542061
Conversely the claim that AoS is doing great and everything's fine is to be accepted unquestioningly. GW cannot fail, only be failed. Buy more sigmarines.

>>47542060
Everyone's free to stop playing their dumb old world armies and play the proper armies and time, so it's fair.

>>47542077
>AoS is utterly terrible

I disagree.

>Other Better games

Like what? AoS is the perfect blend of rules light and hobby friendly that I enjoy.


You know not everyone enjoys netlisting power armies smashing against netlisting power armies.

>>47542060
>Some hilariously stupid powerplays in AoS that can be rules lawyered out by sensible play

Vs

>Chaos Warriors, Chaos Daemons, Elves of all flavors and Ogres being outright better than most armies.

>>47542117

>AoS is the perfect blend of rules light and hobby friendly that I enjoy.

Most people like a tactical game because they trust the creator has done some semblance of balancing, so that when two friends face each other, it's a game of skill.

Having things like points and balance doesn't mean everyone is going to be a autistic powergamer.

>>47540955
Balancing by models is idiotic, it simply cannot work given the range of power levels a 'model' has.

And it requires people to bring more models to the game instead of just a set army list if deployment works that way.

>>47541141
WHFB was a top 5 selling wargame in North America less than five years ago, why are you pushing this idiotic lie?

On another note is anybody else fed up of fucking morons who go 'hurr 40k is unbalanced' as an argument for AoS not even attempting balance? GW being lazy in one game does not justify them being even more lazy in another.

>>47541931
>Supporting your claims is a thing in any rigorous discipline
>supporting
>asking for proofs
>asking for 100% true X => Y

>>47542098
It's accepted because the odds are that it IS doing fine.
People howl and scream and shitfling about GW all the time, regardless of the truth of the matter, so why are you surprised that more of the same is given more than a cursory (you)?

>>47542164
>Having things like points and balance doesn't mean everyone is going to be a autistic powergamer

Literally proven wrong by every thread on /tg/.

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>>47542061
No, I just commented on the ridiculousness of asking for proofs in this situation.

>>47542140

Hey, I feel like playing a casual game with some during open play night at the local FLGS.

Good thing there's a structure so that when two players sit down to choose their army, they are roughly equal.

Oh wait.

>>47542181

>implying /tg/ isn't made up of autistic powergamers

>>47542198
>Points system

>Making armies roughly equal.

I can afford two canons for the price of each Orc Monster

Both books are 8th edition.

>>47542176
>It's accepted because the odds are that it IS doing fine.

...Why?

Why are the odds, despite zero statistical evidence, apparently in the favour of your argument?

Also, it's not accepted. It's accepted by you and the fifty or so other AoS players in the world. Literally only AoS defenders ever report that the game is flying off the shelves.

The only statistical evidence we have suggests that GW profits and market share are continuig to decline. At the very best, AoS had zero effect on sales.

>>47542252
Because GW have enough confidence to push forward with things like Silver Tower.

Or you could bury your head in the sand and pretend AoS is somehow dying.

It's your life, you get angry and autistic about whatever you want.

>>47542288

>Here's a reasonable response to your claim

>Hurr durr AUTISM

>>47542363
>Reasonable response

>One sided opinion piece going "W-well to assume the OTHER SIDE of the stance I HOLD in a hyopthetical is NOT ACCEPTED"

We can argue till the cows come home; AoS isn't dead, WHFB is.

One is clearly selling more than the other.

>>47541576
GW seems to have a strange attitude towards video game adaptations of their IPs. At times it almost seems like they consider them competition for customer attention, rather than possible gateways into the tabletop products.

>>47542363
Not the same guy, anon, so chill your urge to scream samefag.
Point is, most of the time random anons start shouting something is doing badly, they are absolutely wrong.
If a group is wrong more often than not, why should they keep getting the benefit of the doubt, or the assumption they are correct?
I can sit and say no, I don't know how good AoS is doing, but it is still getting support, so it must be selling in some capacity. I don't have a desire for it to fail, so I have no reason to believe when someone uninformed says it is.

>>47542117
>netlisting

Are you trolling? Wanting a game to have a finished ruleset with actual balance does not make you a netlisting powergamer. Accepting laziness on the part of the game developer is not a good thing.

>>47542387
>One is clearly selling more than the other.

Come back to me with 30 years of data and we'll talk.

Oh wait AoS will last maybe 5

>>47542425
That 30 years of data amounted to a less than 10% of sales eventually.

Thanks for showing you're just a nostalgia fag though.

>>47542217
>8th edition

The edition that caused WHFB to decline and which is widely agreed to be less fun than previous editions. What is your point?

Why do you think criticising 8th edition is even slightly relevant when so many WHFB fans disliked it too?

>>47542387
So because GW was so catastrophically incompetent they killed a game that was still profitable that means the replacement that has been widely condemned and devastated fantasy communities world wide must be doing well?

>>47542411
Anon, I'll ask you this: why are you saying that it is lazy that the devs took a different approach to the rules than the one YOU want?

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>>47537576
>hi im retarded

>>47542450
The only people devastated are those net-listing vampire counts faggots who can't stomp local scenes anymore.

my Fantasy community has literally not changed because we never stopped playing 6e.

Why are you in one hand saying 8E SUCKS IT WAS WHAT RUINED WARHAMMER

then in the exact same fucking hand go THE WARHAMMER COMMUNITY IS DESTROYED BECAUSE NO MORE SHIT EDITIONS

Play whatever the fuck you want man, nobody forced you to play by AoS rules.

>>47542217
You're comparing something with its hard counter

I could compare 2 cannons with 130 skaven slaves and the cannons would result underpowered and overpriced


Of course cannons were generally too precise resulting in dealing too much damage but that can be house ruled with ease ;^)

what if GW makes units based on radious' mod pack?

>>47542510
>Cannons counter Monsters
>Large Infantry counter Monsters
>Heavy Cavalry counter Monsters
>Light Cavalry counter Monsters

You get the point? You are the same people who whined about Herohammer in 6e.

>>47542511
Still better than sigmarines

>>47542466
It has nothing to do with what 'I' want, they released a ruleset that was unfinished and does not even provide a proper means to balance two forces.

Why are you so desperate to defend the game that you label people who want balance powergamers? Its just dishonest to spout bullshit like that.

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>>47542023
Comrade...

>>47542466

Not that Anon but... because there is no balance. At all.

Okay, so Starcraft has been losing popularity in recent years, yes?

What if their solution to the issue was this:

>Try out NEW Starcraft! In every battle you can spawn any unit you want instantly! Unlock the Ultralisk Units for only $5.99!

And then over on /v/ people were going:

>Hurr durr all these buttmad old SC players, its a new game Starcraft wasn't selling, I don't get why you don't like it just agree with your opponent what you're going to deploy and how much ahead of time its more narrative this way

Do you see why people would think it was shit?

>>47542553
Why are you so desperate to think points balance forces when they quite clearly never did.

>>47542574

Yes, observe how unbalanced Warmahordes is

>>47542541
No, I don't: cavalry, heavy cavalry and large infantry are not necessarily hard counters to monsters

>>47525979
Trying to completely reboot both rules and setting when all the staff who might actually have been able to do that were long gone.

>>47542564
>Hyperbole
>Literally only assumes AoS players play the mass summoning retard spam
>Doesn't even understand how retard spamming is countered
>Doesn't even understand AoS, the so called easiest wargame ever

Are you the same kind of retard who thinks turning a flank in AoS doesn't work because it isn't represented in simulationist mathematics?

>>47542585
Did you just try and claim Warmahordes is balanced?

>>47542496
>The only people devastated are those net-listing vampire counts faggots who can't stomp local scenes anymore.

How about you stop spreading malicious lies and there will be something to talk about. What could possibly motivate you to pretend that only netlisters stopped playing?

When a game loses support it starts to decline and getting new people to start becomes almost impossible. 'Play whatever you want' is bullshit when it comes to wargames, you cannot play a game if people drop it because it was discontinued.

>>47542590
Yes they fucking are.

When big lumbering monsters are relegated to "Hope you charge them in the flank or you fucking die" then it defeats the point of them.

They just because easier to kill cavalry then.

>>47542574
>less is more

>>47542564
>>47542553
So basically, what it comes to is that you all want more of the old game.
At least admit that it's just as much salt as anything else. There are a number of games out there that don't use hard rules for everything, or even some of the expected things. Unlike you all, I don't scream about how the devs are "lavy" or the ruleset is "unfinished" when it was clearly released as what it was supposed to be.
It is different, and that is what you are mad about. No wonder these threads resemble D&D edition wars.

>>47542574
It was far, far closer than AoS is or will ever be in its current form. 'Hurr its not perfect' is not a reason to just give up entirely.

Its been the best part of a year and people are STILL spouting the 'hurr only powergamers give a shit about balance' bullshit, its absurd. Were you people all hiding in the woodwork this whole time?

>>47542638
>when it was clearly released as what it was supposed to be.
Then why are they adding points back?

>>47542657
>It was far, far closer than AoS is or will ever be in its current form

You have any proof? Because half of the retard camp says "4+ everything is same" and then misunderstand the summon rules.

>>47542671
Because they want to? I won't be using them because I am not an autistic cunt who needs to measure everything by a numeral value to ensure my jimmies don't get rustled.

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>>47532010
>the empire
>the Goodly Good guys defending Humanity from the forces of Chaos

I think GW just saw the way the wind was blowing for massed fantasy battles. They figured they couldn't attract/keep the newer younger generation who quite simply don't have the patience for work having a full fantasy army requires. Shit look at 40k (because you know they did). Half the kids nowadays play with grey plastic and it's WAY less of a model commitment....
It made more money sense for them to keep there current pricing model on miniatures and just create a new game that works at that level. Look at WMH- they play with the amount of models AoS does, and charge the same amount. So GW knew it could be done.

>>47541921
Seems like AoS are just as butthurt. You guys keep clinging to the same points like a creationist clings to the Bible to give purpose to their bleak lives, lashing out at anything that disagrees with your narrow view with some thinly veiled arrogance to hide how vulnerable you feel.

Are you sure those tears you enjoy aren't your own?

>>47542671
There is a demand for them, and GW cares about money.
You ask stupid questions, anon.

>>47542638
AoS was always going to be judged against WHFB and that is entirely valid.

Are you such a mindless fanboy that you think people should be content that GW mismanaged their game then canned it and replaced it with something entirely different?

I don't care who makes it, if a company released a game where they had not even bothered to include a proper way to balance forces I would call it lazy. The only reason people even talk about AoS is because GW killed WHFB for it, on its own merits by a different company it would have sunk without trace.

>>47536749
Gonna need some sauce if I'm to enjoy this beef...

>>47542443
>less than 10% of sales
Source?

>>47542709
>Lashing out at anything that disagrees with your narrow view with some thinly veiled arrogance to hide how vulnerable you feel.

AoS players don't go into the WiP thread and spam shitposting on Fantasy models in the WiP.

Just saying.

>>47542685
>retard camp
>wanting points is autistic

I really hope you are just a troll because otherwise you actually have problems if criticism of a shitty game offends you this much.

Do you really need proof why considering all models equivalent for balance purposes does not work? Or why 'wounds is not viable when models with the same amount can vary wildly in power?

>>47542701
>way the wind was blowing

They actively drove people away in their mad quest for more profit. This is not a problem with mass battles, its a problem with their pricing model and rule decisions.

>>47542685
>Because they want to?
That contradicts your claim that the game was already what they wanted it to be

>>47542713
While this implies that the current game is not what GW's target wants

>>47541955
Agreed

AOS isnt perfect but its getting better with every new release. I have played more games of AOS in the past 4 months than I have played WHFB in 10+ years.

>>47542443
You're too stupid to insult

>>47542767
Look, you can't really try and claim a morale highground then insult people just because they want a different system to you.

>>47542785
>This contradicts your claim

>They add an addition to the game they wanted to be modular and open to everyone contradicts my claim.

Look, I literally already use a mordeheim style gold buying system already because we're in an AoS campaign right now. So yeah, I use a point system.

>>47542811
That's quite the fucking Oxymoron there isn't it?

>>47542721
>AoS was always going to be judged against WHFB and that is entirely valid.
Why, tho?
The games are entirely different in ruleset and direction, only having some similarities in setting. You may as well comepare Heralds of Ruin to Inquisitor.
>>47542721
>Are you such a mindless fanboy
I stopped playing Fantasy in 4e, 40k in 6e, don't play AoS because no one plays wargames in my area.
I decided to see why people are so butthurt in these threads, and it basically boils down to Edition Wars: GW. Thanks for playing, now I exit.
>>47542785
Who said target? I said there is a demand. It could be 10% of players, but adding some manner of basic, barebones points system takes less than 40 manhours and will likely make them a magnitude more than what it would cost.
You are making leaps of assumption that have no support because you WANT some sign that AoS is failing, and it's honestly sort of sad.
I loved 4e D&D, but I don't shitpost in the 5e thread, I went ahead and played the game I enjoyed, while you, and those like you, shit up threads openly out of spite.

>>47542767
I will never be caught saying that GW is well priced (it's a fucking ripoff luxury or not) but besides WHFB and KoW are there any other big mass fantasy games?
Everyone seems to be shitting out skirmish sci fi games or post apocalypse games, and WMH (and now AoS) have the fantasy skirmish scene, but what else for mass battles?

>>47542806
Exactly the same here.

AoS allowed me to start up small projects like a White Lion Warband or a Wardancer clan.

It's pretty cool how the free design works.

>>47527416
As far as I'm concerned, that data looks legit. I have gone out of my way to not to give GW any money ever since the new Cruddex dropped.
>>47540883
The codex was released at the start of 2014, first release of that year IIRC

>>47542849
AoS works well as a massed battle game.

It just works a little more physical than others were Ranks and flanks are sort of used tactically for real world ideas not because of passive mechanics.

>>47542849
I guess my point is somethings cornering a shrinking market isn't as profitable as taking a smaller share with avenues of growth in ANOTHER market (fantasy skirmish WMH style) that have greater growth potential.

>>47542834
Heralds of Ruin did not kill Inquisitor and make it harder to find games because the community was scattered. Who cares if they are different? Why are you disregarding the people abandoned even though they loved the setting and wanted the game to be better again?

>>47542821
You do not get to accuse anybody of insults when you keep calling people autists for wanting a game to be at least reasonably balanced.

Its just dishonest to frame this as a disagreement over game styles.

>>47542878
Yeah and 40k can 'work' as a mass battle game. Apocalypse games are super popular and the edition of super heavies was super well received.
Don't bullshit me. AoS is firmly in the skirmish territory. But that's not like it's a point against it- it seems to work well there.

>>47542881
Why do you keep ignoring that it only shrank because GW mismanaged it?

And GW abandoning cornered and still profitable markets is how all these competitors sprang up in the first place.

>>47542117
>Like what?

Take your pick of literally any game including WHFB. Even the bad editions.

>AoS is the perfect blend of rules light and hobby friendly that I enjoy.
Probably because you're playing it wrong. Everyone who claims they're enjoying AoS is usually playing it with houserules, often without even realising they're houserules.
>You know not everyone enjoys netlisting power armies smashing against netlisting power armies.
1. A balanced game should be good for people who don't powergame because it should ensure the disparity between a force that's extensively tweaked and one that isn't is low.
2. Every argument I've heard to how AoS stops people from powergaming, given there's literally no army rules, is some variation of "Now we can talk it out". You can, and always could, do this in every game.
3.AoS has numerous amazingly broken combinations in addition to core rules that are so poorly worded as to be nonsensical.

It's fine to enjoy AoS. I enjoy Plan 9 From Outer Space. I don't claim it's a good film though.

>>47542912
>game can promote 30/40 man units
>I-it's a skirmish game

Is this because they're not arranged in blocks?

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The original setting was just that, a setting. The story was clear, with nearly everything having an explanation that worked with everything else, with anything vague left intentionally vague for players and lore buffs to speculate on.Each faction felt a lot more alive as a result.

The Empire was supposed to be the strongest nation of humans yet still struggled with everything, putting a bandage on open wounds because there was no time to treat it properly, all the while carrying themselves as being 'better'. The fact that they were notGerman added an additional flair that made them a culture, and thus something for you to latch onto. The frilly pants, the feather capped helmets, the shoddy but over the top city architecture, all contributed to make them more ‘human’. Like any soldier could easily be you, defending your home against a world that was trying to kill you.

AoS by comparison reads like a how-to fantasy book. Vague creation story, dime-a-dozen naming, and faceless soldiers in bulky armor. Where the Empire and Brettonia had lengthy descriptions for even their most basic soldiers, anything in AoS is lucky to get more than a short summary. The fact that they are new is a poor excuse, as being new means they should be putting more effort into making a good first impression. Yet they put even less effort than WHFB did. Generic names, generic lands, generic artwork, it's more the Age of Bland.

I wanted to like AoS. I really did. But goddamn did they drop the ball on making the new game.

>>47542181
You realise even most people who /tg/ don't actually post on /tg/, right? We're a tiny minority of tabletop gamers, a niche part of a niche hobby.

>>47542935
And this is why I keep calling you fucking autistic.

You literally told me I am playing the game wrong for houseruling.

I have been houseruling since fucking 4th edition you fucking sperg.

>>47542755
No they just go to WHFB threads and spam shitposting
>butthurt tears are delicious

Just saying.

>>47542900
>Who cares if they are different?
The people who take an objective view of the entire situation and do not allow fanboyism to guide them.
AoS and Fantasy are different games, different mechanics, different approach, theme, direction. They share a similar setting, but that is all.
You are straight up edition warring in a situation it doesn't apply out of spite and butthurt. Thankfully for us both, I will go back to ignoring these threads outright. Have... fun, I guess?

>>47542965
>Be in like 80% of WHFB threads
>Community in there so vitrolic anything even saying AoS is spat on like a bunch of angry baboons
>Shitposting

You remember when the Warhammer Fantasy threads were merged?

It was the WHFB posters who did all the shitposting

>>47541141
>the price hikes were a response to sales dipping
Your Economy Master is showing.

>>47542176
Have you noticed how GW has pushed basically all of the nostalgia panic buttons and has even been forced to accept they may have to talk to their fanbase? Their forums must've closed what, ten years ago? Now suddenly after killing off a game that was ticking along fine and going all-in on it's widely hated replacement they've had to start marketing, which they were arrogant enough to try and get away with for almost a decade.

>>47542995
>GW stops being shit
>HAH LOOK AT THEM AND HOW PATHETIC THEY ARE

I.... What? GW was listening to the fanbase in 7th, that's how we got fucking 8th.

>>47542574
Other games weren't written by interns with no experience living on coffee and goodwill.

>>47542992
And now it's AoS. Even on /vg/ a Total Warhammer thread pops up, someone has to show up, swinging AoS like it's their dick.

>>47542608
>Are you the same kind of retard who thinks turning a flank in AoS doesn't work because it isn't represented in simulationist mathematics?
Okay this I gotta hear.
How do flank charges work in AoS, anon? I'm dying to hear it. Explain the strategic depth to me.

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>>47542671
>>when it was clearly released as what it was supposed to be.
>Then why are they adding points back?

>>47542638
No, it's bad. It's got the lowest amount of effort I've seen of any wargame I've played in my life and I started in the 90s when balance hadn't been invented yet.