Starfinder - Pathfinder in Space

I could imagine no better company to grab the cash of ME3 fans than Paizo.

Its over a year away before release ... any excitement just left

Pathfinder is shit, it's a shame that they're not going to improve their shit rules.

>>47503663
>"let's play a scifi game, but I only know Pathfinder so let's use that" is now an official product
What a time to be alive.

>>47504167
Yeah this is actually a worse start than d20 Modern, which at least had its own setting and adjusted rules.

>>47503663
I like Pathfinder, but I have a very bad feeling.

>>47503663
>http://paizo.com/starfinder/
So will it use the same basic system as pathfinder?
Complete shit then.

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>>47503663
I'd normally only post this for Satan, but at this point I can only describe it with this gif.

>d20
>sci-fi
For what purpose?

>working on this instead of Pathfinder 2E

Who would in their right mind play this over Shadowrun, Warhammer or D:tD if they wanted a fantasy/sci-fi game?

d20 fantasy systems don't do well with adaptation unless they're almost completely rewritten (like M&M), and given Paizo's continuous incompetence in terms of good mechanics and game balance, Starfinder is very likely to be a crock of shit. Which will sell like hotcakes because Pathfinder fans have learned to love the taste of shit.

>>47504167
It's not that different from Spelljammer, is it? Just that with this the setting and rules are retarded.

>>47504167
Jesus, this.
I can't possible feel less excited.

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>Galactic Ulfen Raiders
>Taldor IN SPACE
>Molthune and Nirmathas being a legitimate interstellar war

>>47503663
I'm not an edition war fag so I'm cool with this. Might be fun.

>>47504252
>which at least had its own setting

I thought all of d20 Modern's settings were swiped from Alternity

>>47507830
To be fair, most of the people who dislike Pathfinder aren't edition war faggots. They're people that dislike shoveling shit down their throats.

>>47503663
It's literally a setting book.

IT'S LITERALLY A SETTING BOOK.

There could not be less to be excited about since this is Pathfinder... in the same universe as Golarion... with the Technology Guide... and with existing races stated for the system.

Pathfinder has the worst gun rules, worst technology rules, and one of the worst rules systems in the market. The development team has done nothing good in years, and they have released such heavy errata to Pathfinder that this game is crock of shit in its inception.

>>47503663
So, Power-armored Marine can fight Orcs and Dragons in an even field, but can he do the same against a Wizard?

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I don't know, might be neat. I have up Pathfinder a long time ago but pretty familiar with it.

I have other books to scratch my Space Opera itch like Eclipse Phase or Mindjammer. I'll be interested in this strictly for concepts and ideas, see where they take it.

>>47509142
Eclipse Phase is very much not Space Opera. Space Opera isn't even science fiction, it's fantasy in space.

>>47508135
Literally a setting book, except for the fact that it will have all new classes, new races, new magic systems, and almost certainly new technology/gun systems.

Just because it's cross-compatible doesn't mean it won't be new. I'm smelling more like WoD.

>>47509773
>new magic systems

Source?

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>>47509773
>new classes
In setting books. Also, generally shit.
>new races
In setting books. Also, generally equal parts cringe and meme.
>new magic systems
More likely, just new spells. In setting books, regardless.
>new technology/gun systems
In setting books. Also, generally shit.

>>47509956
>I'm in a thread for a system I don't like
No one is forcing you to play things.

"Into the trash" memes are also shit and cringe, and belong on /v/ and /pol/. Or >>>/trash/

>>47509974

Are you so scared about people disagreeing with you that you'd censor all criticism? Go back to fucking RPG.net.

>>47508556
maybe if he's like some kinda Mage Marine?

>>47510006

>le you can't handle critisims maymay :^)

Yes yes, I know all those nasty people around liking things you don't like is just so frustration isn't it? You should go rant about them on your tumblr

>>47510006
You're not criticizing, you're bitching. I don't go into the Warhammer threads and talk about how shitty Warhammer is. Take your shitty memes somewhere else.

>>47509773
Do you even know what a setting book is? You should, Paizo has printed like 50 of them for Pathfinder already.

Remember Occult Adventures? The one with new classes, a "new" magic system, and new items that were totally not magic items that ended up being magic items?

Also, from the website here's the example races/classes: android assassin, ratfolk mechanic, and lashunta technomancer. Literally one of those is new. I'm sensing Edge of Empire versus Age of Rebellion here.

>>47510125
Holy shit, they even have "Starfinder Adventure Paths" and probably plan on Startinder society. This is such a copy/paste cash grab... And it will probably work on shitty Pathfinder fans.

Enjoy Pathfinder with its worst rules highlighted and the OGL curtailed.

>>47510120
I'm not who you replied to. Surprise, the majority of /tg/ thinks Pathfinder is shit, including those that play it. And gasp, someone else brought up the same points I did. >>47510125

>>47510125
Yeah it kinda just like they're mostly branching out on the stuff from Distant Worlds and the Tech guide to make Spelljammer: Pathfinder Edition

>>47510125
Don't forget that Pathfinder... IN SPACE is already a book, too.

>>47510161
No one is forcing you to play Pathfinder. This might be shocking, but there are people who enjoy things that you don't.

>>47510120
Remember back when /tg/ talked about games they enjoyed more than they bitched about ones they don't?

Yeah, me neither, but part of me likes to think it happened once upon a time.

>>47505705
>Pathfinder 2E
They can't. Their business model is clinging onto the nostalgiafags until they die, then close shop.
>>47507798
>>47504167
This is amazingly underwhelming yeah.

>>47510193
My gaming group is. All they want to do is play Pathfinder over and over rather than any other system. Instead of playing Dungeons: the Dragoning or Shadowrun which I've shown an interest in and multiple players know/have the books for, they'll probably rather want to play this hot garbage instead.

>>47510120
Well, that's because Warhammer's dead, bro.

>>47510193
Not completely true, given the saturation of the market and the number of groups that just doggedly refuse to learn new games. I've seen a couple and always hear the horror stories of groups that feel like they've spent so much time/effort/money on Pathfinder, that they simply don't want to learn a new system. Hence the existence of Pathfinder, to be honest. As well as things like d20 Star Wars, Mutants and Masterminds, etc.

A lot of people hate change, and for some groups, this means they end up shackled to Pathfinder for all of their campaigns.

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>>47503663
If you're into this sort of stuff, there are plenty of games to support it like Mini Six or OVA. Then you got (literally) Space Opera RPG or Mindjammer. Stars Without Number is kinda neat if you don't wanna venture from d20. Oh, and The Void, basically Call of Cthulhu in space.

>>47510210
>They can't. Their business model is clinging onto the nostalgiafags until they die, then close shop.
Actually, the reason they can't is because they've tied themselves so strongly to intercompatibility and using Pathfinder Society Organized Play as an entrypoint into their system and part of their business model. You can see them trying to get around this with stuff like Unchained, which is essentially Pathfinder 2e, but still completely compatible with existing Pathfinder products.

>>47510227
>>47510278
No one is fucking forcing you. If you honestly cannot stand Pathfinder and your friends refuse to play anything else, you are not being forced to play. You can very easily get your gaming fix elsewhere. Find or make a Gamefinder thread. Post on Roll20. Look around on Reddit. Join an IRC. Use a store locator and see what other people are running. Or if all else fails, step up and run the game yourself.
The absolute worst part of the tabletop gaming community is people who bitch that no one plays what they want.

Like I said in the first post: I don't care for Pathfinder but I don't hate it. My friend is at PaizoCon right now, but I've never felt like she was forcing me to play whenever she invites me to PFS.

>>47510498
>Mindjammer
I never found the PDFs for that but I hear the system is unplayable.

>>47510534
Search me as to why. It's just FATE with a heavy sci-fi setting steeped in shades of Star Trek, 40k, and anything else you can tap into.

>>47503663
I'll give it a month after their first AP before everyone forgets about it, like with Occult Adventures and Technology rules.

>>47510520
>defending unchained
You do realize this is Pathfinder 2.0, right? It will have it's own Starfinder Society, Starfinder Adventure Paths, and block out a lot of OGL.

This is Paizo knowing they lose too much to 5e, so they are trying to shift their base to a more profitable enterprise whose strongest competition is FFG Star Wars.

>>47503663
My first thought was "Why would you ever want to use Pathfinder rules to play a sci-fi game?" and then I realized "Why would you ever want to use Pathfinder rules to play a fantasy adventure game?" and suddenly it all made sense.

I expect it will be a smash hit. RPG of the year.

>>47510658
>and then I realized "Why would you ever want to use Pathfinder rules to play a fantasy adventure game?"
It's the most popular system.

>>47510754
*was* the most popular system.

>>47510645
>>defending unchained
Holy fuck will you grow up? So much as mentioning something is now "DEFENDING" it. I've never even played Unchained classes. It is literally impossible to talk about Pathfinder without you whiny pissbabies jumping into the conversation to say how much it sucks. People who spend all their time bitching about games they hate is literally one of the most annoying things I've ever experienced.

>>47510798
>People who spend all their time bitching about games they hate
>Pathfinder

it must be so weird to live in a world without even a shred of irony

>>47510798
If you need a safe space the new Starfinder forum has all the Paizo drones on their knees.

>>47510520
>step up and run the game yourself.
And have them say, "But... I don't wanna have to learn a new system, let's just play it in Pathfinder!"

I know you don't have any friends, Anon, but some people actually do want to play with theirs. Even if it means dealing with one of the shittiest RPGs you can play.

>>47510645
>whose strongest competition is FFG Star Wars
And even then, it's less about the fact that the competition and Star Wars and more about the fact that there's no Organized Play equivalent to DnD Adventures and Pathfinder Society.

>>47510754
>>47510788
And even then, that was only a small period of time. 4E consistently outsold Pathfinder while it was still supported and books were coming out. It was only during the end of Essentials and pre-release of 5E that it was the best selling game.

>>47511339
>but some people actually do want to play with theirs. Even if it means dealing with one of the shittiest RPGs you can play.
This so much. I would prefer if my gaming group tried systems other than Pathfinder, but I love playing with them enough that I'm able to enjoy our games despite the janky system.

>>47511381
Dude, these are the same kinda people that still maintain that dbz is "the best anime". Do you really think they'll actually agree with anything else?

>>47511381
>And even then, that was only a small period of time. 4E consistently outsold Pathfinder while it was still supported and books were coming out. It was only during the end of Essentials and pre-release of 5E that it was the best selling game.

I'd have loved to have seen a proper 4e Spelljammer like how there was a 4e Dark Sun. They clearly had a handle on how to give the same game a different feel for different settings.

>>47511491
Well, you can kinda sorta get Spelljammer just in the printed materials for 4E, except more Fantasy based to keep it compatible with the rest of the cosmology. Sailing Astral Ships through the Astral Sea.

>>47511168
>>47510894
>>47511466
I'm not a fucking Paizo drone. Pathfinder is far from my favourite system. I'd be hard pressed to say I like it. But just once I'd like to be able to mention Pathfinder without someone jumping down my throat for "defending" something they don't like.
Being able to enjoy something that isn't the greatest thing ever is not some fatal flaw. Who gives a shit if people love shitty games? This board was founded on Warhammer and D&D. If "Pathfinder is not the worst thing ever" triggers you so much, maybe you need a safe space.

>>47511339
>>47511421
I have been in many gaming groups and none of them have wanted to do everything in only one system, even the ones that I found on specific system oriented IRC channels. Even then, the people who do have preferred systems that they want to do everything in are either WoD 1e or Shadowrun.

>>47511676
>not a Paizo drone
If it walks like a duck...

>>47511381
They made PFS to sell books.

They can't outsell their new competition and thought they had a shot after taking the lead in the market. (By roll20 numbers alone they are losing a significant amount of the market)

So they make a new game taking their large market into a type of game with no real competition. They let 5e be D&D and the future of Pathfindwr is in Sci-fi.

Starfinder is Pathfinder 2.0, it is teie response to D&D 5e, it's a new edition that is being pitched as not a new edition by a change in setting.

It means Paizo sells a whole new set of core books without selling any new core fantasy books. It means selling new sci-fi adventures that don't compete against their current set of adventures.

Paizo is terrible at game design, but great at publishing. Anyone being fooled by their release of a new edition has a screw loose.

>>47511965
I haven't played Pathfinder in over a year. I don't love the system at all, and I could criticize it just as much as you do. Probably more reasonably and accurately, at that. If anything, I'm an Onyx Path drone. Even my PFS Venture Lieutenant friend who's off at Paizocon--who loves Pathfinder because she loves the setting clusterfuck of Golarion and the Pathfinder Society stories and the adventure paths, and Paizo as a company's method of minority inclusiveness by doing instead of saying--doesn't care for the system itself all that much.

Being able to enjoy a bad system does not mean I'm a Paizo Drone who worships Pathfinder and only plays that system. It means I'm a normal functioning human being who accepts that "fun" doesn't require a perfect system, as opposed to the embodiment of 4chan autism.

All I wanted was to talk about Space Pathfinder without having people jump out of the woodwork to shit down my neck because "mite.b.cool" is apparently a passionate defense of LITERALLY the worst system ever.

>>47512053
Why do people keep calling this "Pathfinder 2.0"? It clearly isn't. It's just a side line. How can it be a radical new edition when they've explicitly said that it's compatible with the shit that exists? It's literally just some scifi based Pathfinder supplements with a different branding so they feel more comfortable selling non-Golarion stuff.

>>47512266
New editions are about the business and not the system.

>>47512266
Not the worst system ever, just the worst working system ever. Shit like FATAL and Cthulutech is literally unplayable as written, while Pathfinder is technically playable.

>>47512322
But it's not a new edition. A new edition updates and replaces the old one.

>>47512379
No it's not, stop being a whiny pissbaby. It's got problems, but it's perfectly servicable and does what it wants to decently. Your problems with the system are entirely of your own making, and you refuse to do anything other than bitch about things no one is forcing you to play.
Also, hey, CthulhuTech actually is the worst system I've ever played.

>>47512266
>Paizo as a company's method of minority inclusiveness by doing instead of saying

You mean the NPCs 90% defined as "this one is special because they're trans"!

Sounds a bit like White Star and Stars Without Number in OSR circles. That said I'll keep playing those systems as Pathfinder is not my thing. If there's any neat adventures or ideas I'll just nab them and toss into my system of choice instead.

>>47510498
>Mini Six
Mah nigga. Fantastic game, hoping the revision comes out soon.

>>47512407
Jesus Christ dude, Paizo announcing this means the flood of Pathfinder content *will* drop. If you have ever listened to what the Pathfinder fans say about a new edition, you'll know Paizo cannot make a new Pathfinder edition. It would be business suicide.

This is a way to sneak in a new edition, sell a lot of product now that their books are selling less, and keep their fans invested in their product.

No it's not in the most technical sense Pathfinder 2.0, but it is as close as possible to a new edition Paizo can get.

>>47512731
Also I read the blog, they said it is based in Pathfinder and set in Golarion 2020. They made no promise of 100% compatablity

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YOU COULD HOMEBREW YOUR OWN SCI-FI SETTING WITH PATHFINDER RULES AND DOUBTLESS MANY PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE

FUCKING WHY BOTHER

WHY

>>47512855
Some people are lazy/uncreative and Paizo wants their money.

>>47512939
>money
>paying for goddamn pdfs
I know i am lazy but at least I do not spend my money on anything

>>47511552
So not Spelljammer at all then, got it.

What in the ever loving God is paizo doing? If I wanted scifi I would use shadowrun, not this husk of barely playable shit. What do I do? Full attack with my blaster? Still use plane shift as a veritable OHKO?

This has a lot more information.
http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2016/05/paizocon-banquet-reveals-2017/

This makes it seem like they are literally changing none of the Pathfinder rules.

>>47503663
>Game evolved from the Pathfinder rules
>Pathfinder rules
Does anyone out there actually believe that Pathfinder isn't just D&D?

>>47506057
Spelljammer was more fantasy with space ships. This seems more actial sci-fi.

>>47512731
You and I have very different ideas of what "a new edition" would mean. They're not going to suddenly stop publishing Pathfinder and go all in with Starfinder. That would just be dumb. They'd alienate their core audience without a real back up audience.
>>47512773
>It'll be backward compatible, so you can still use all those Pathfinder RPG bestiaries, but will feature all sorts of new classes, races, equipment, and other elements uniquely suited to our far-future setting.

>>47512855
>>47512939
>>47513231
You can also grow your own food but people don't do that. There are people in this thread constantly talking about how they wish they could get a real Spelljammer update. You could even make your own RPG completely.

>>47513437
>Wanting to use Shadowrun for this
I've had fun in pathfinder. I've never had fun in Shadowrun. Shadowrun also isn't a space opera.

>>47513633
>This seems more actial sci-fi.
It's basically the same setting but focusing on the space parts. Golarion's solar system is fucking bonkers and "actual scifi" in the sense that it takes tropes from 50s pulp scifi instead of fantasy pulp. There's a planet of beautiful amazon space babes that ride giant tigers.

I'm still too traumatised by the party wizard plane shifting my character for disagreeing with him too much to trust paizo's ability to balance a space game.

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>>47513835
>I've never had fun in Shadowrun.
Oh, so you have shit taste. I understand now.

>>47510206
They did, way back in the day. We had actual furfags and Touhou futa instead of /pol/ and /r9k/ posting back then too.

>>47511676
>>47512266
>>47513835
go2bed, paizo

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>>47509226
>Space Opera isn't even science fiction, it's fantasy in space.
>muh hard sci-fi is the only real sci-fi

As a long time Pathfinder player I can't wait for cool ideas to be briefly mentioned as optional or tertiary and never expendable upon again and again and again.

>>47513835
You are the single most defensive person I have ever seen claim to only kinda like something - especially when this is literally a shitty setting book that will sold as a core rule book.

>>47503663
OMFG THEY MADE A D20 RIPOFF GAME

oh wait we've already done that

>>47507848
>I thought all of d20 Modern's settings were swiped from Alternity
Not all of them, and Alternity was/is a Wizards property anyway.

>>47511676
defend the empire, bongo

that's a good lad

-Not!Paizo

>>47513995
>> hard sci-fi
>> hard fiction
>> topkek

>>47505438
Collect greenbacks.

>>47513987
People can enjoy things you don't like.
>>47513995
It literally is fantasy in space, though. Some settings even have magic and wizards. "Science fiction" shouldn't just be about the trappings. Narratively it's all magic, but the way science fiction treats things and the way fantasy treats them is very different.

>>47514116
>>47514196
I'm defensive about something I only kinda like because people shitting on things is my pet peeve. Pathfinder, D&D, DmC: Devil May Cry, Bioshock Infinite, Marvel movies, hell, DC movies. I don't care how much you hate something, why bother ranting and raving about how much you hate it? Shit, I hate Shadowrun and I'm not going to rant and rave and tell people who are enjoying Shadowrun that they should stop playing Shadowrun, and the only time I'll tell someone not to play oWoD is if they're looking for a system. I don't care if someone is playing Call of Duty, no one needs you to come tell them that it's shit and they should stop having fun.

People can have fun with things that you don't like. You're not the Goddamned fun police.

Watch them somehow put caster supremacy in a a sci-fi game.

>>47505705

Hell, why not use this to do some R&D work for Pathfinder 2E.

Overhaul the action system (start with removing full attacks and immediate actions). Ditch archetypes and PrCs for something more like paragon paths and epic destinies. Overhaul the ability score and skill systems (fuck mod2 modifiers).

So much low hanging fruit.

>>47514503
>likes emo Dante and BvS
No wonder you can't take people not liking shit things.

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>>47503663
If you like science fantasy play better games using the tropes

>>47515221
>Missing the point this hard
It's not even about "like". It's about being able to enjoy something. I haven't even seen BvS, but fuck me if I care to hear someone bitch about it.

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>>47515221
>not calling out Biocuck Infishite

>>47515365
Is "b-but I don't even watch/play/etc that thing!" your only reply? This bait has become stale.

>>47515439
I haven't seen BvS. I've played "Biocuck Infishite" and DmC. I enjoyed them. I've also enjoyed playing Pathfinder. There are people enjoy That Thing You Hate right this very moment! You should go do something about it!

>>47515782
>2016
>still shilling this hard

>>47515839
I give up. Whatever. 100 posts of people getting triggered over other people having fun with something they hate.

>>47515996
I'm pretty sure getting this mad is the only reason there have been replies to you at all.

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>>47515996

>
> Pathfinder sucks!
> Pathfinder is shit!
> Pathfinder blows!
> Pathfinder gave me AIDS!

Bu the truth is...

> Pathfinder has been and remains one of the hottest selling games on the market.

Now I'm willing to give that some people here just MIGHT be ahead of the curve but it Jat doesn't matter. When your conclusion deviates so far from the wellspring of popular opinion, you have become an acceptable loss in the eyes of capitalism no matter how right you might be. And, in this case, it's arguable. I'm not even saying I disagree. I'm just saying no one's listening... particularly to /tg/. It's devolved into /b/ with dice, miniatures and/or cards.

I don't get exactly what is this about

Will it be a different ruleset or "just" additional content better suited for a space and technologically advanced setting?

>>47519087
The difference between /tg/ and the general RPG playing population is that even though half of /tg/ doesn't play at all they have at least been exposed to games beyond D&D and Pathfinder. Most of the RPG playing population has not. Pathfinder has no redeeming value as a game (I consider it on par with games like Cthulhutech, which I own and have played), but as so many 3.P players simply HONESTLY DO NOT REALIZE there are other games it creates an echo chamber effect. Entire groups are made of people where no one knows of a game other than what they are playing and so new players simply make the assumption that the game they are playing is the only one.

And once they play long enough, even if they do encounter other games they rationalize that what they were playing wasn't trash because their egos won't allow them to play a shitty game. It's brain damage anon. It's brain damage that has killed two generations of RPG gamers now. It's infectious and, weighing the danger of its corruption which has already destroyed so many formerly good communities, we've found that lies and misinformation about the evils of 3.P MUST BE SHOUTED DOWN.

The echo chamber does not apply here.

>>47512053
>no real competition
I want to deny it with the FFG SW games, Mongoose Traveller, and the new Infinity RPG, but I don't think FFG, Mongoose, or Modiphius have the market presence that Paizo does.

>>47509974
The difference is, this isn't a General. Shitting up a General is uncool.

This is a discussion thread. This is the appropriate place for shitting up.

>>47522837
> /tg/ has more exposure to different games.

There is no evidence to back this up. Stories on an anonymous board where trolls run wild and free can't be considered. I'll concede that D&D is the Kin Kardashian of RPG's in that it's popular simply because it's popular but I think the actual difference between /tg/ and the general RPG population is that the internet breeds a culture of whining and where everyone wants to be the cool outsider looking down on the masses who enjoy ANYTHING and it only gets worse with anonymity.

>>47522978
You got the idea, bro. Paizo wants to bring back lost players to Pathfinder *in spaaaaace!*

>>47507851
>To be fair, most of the people who dislike Pathfinder aren't edition war faggots. They're people that dislike shoveling shit down their throats.
>The most edition war faggot comment I have ever seen

>>47523259
>Liking things
Go2bed Paizocuck.

It's something new to play. I'll pirate it like everything else.

I played other RPGs that I liked but I still like Pathfinder too, what went wrong?

>>47525869
Were the other games Fantasy RPGs?

i don't get the hate for pathfinder. instead of having at least one "that guy" playing shonen-anime in a dnd game, they can all play together in a system designed for over 9000.
keeps the narutarded "that guys" segregated, it's a win-win.
bottom line. both styles need to exist to keep the peace.

>>47514621

You mean Jedis?

>>47525900
No, the one that I played most had a Post-Apocaliptic setting like Fallout but without the comedy

>>47503663
I hope they get better arts

God. FUCKING. DAMNIT.

Will this brain damaging cancer never fucking die?

>>47512266
Why is it only 3.PF that has this odd, hardline "I don't really like the game, but I'll go down screaming and defending it!" fuckfaces?

>>47522837
Thank you. God, yes, thank you, it is so good to see someone else that understands.

>>47527742
Then that's why you still like Pathfinder. You've never tried anything else in the same genre. Go play some Fantasy Craft or 13th Age.

>>47528860

they're too busy watching animu to play any rpg that's not meme-tastic enough to be vouched by the dat guy army

>>47505705
>Pathfinder 2E
Is that really something they can do? I mean, the whole selling point of PF is that's it's really just D&D 3.5. If it ever stops being a clone of 3.5 it wouldn't really have anything to recommend it. It would lose it's raison d'etre. At this point surely the only people playing PF are solely those who would abandon it the instant it changed too much. So if they actually produce a PF 2E that actually changed and improved things they'd lose their existing consumer base. At that point, they'd need to create a game so good it could attract a new consumer base while competing with D&D 5e and all the other fantasy rpgs. And considering how many of the changes PF actually made to 3.5 were arguably to it's detriment, I don't really trust that they can do that. And it's not like the pathfinder name is really that much of an edge to have, since it doesn't really mean anything to anyone who isn't a 3.5 fan.

>>47529084
>many of the changes PF actually made to 3.5 were arguably to it's detriment


Why is that? Never played 3.5 so I'm genuinely curious

How popular is 5e compared to Pathfinder?

>>47532328
It sold significantly more books, and double the games on roll20. I'm pretty sure there is no denying that Pathfinder is hurting because of 5e - especially since they grew their staff going into 5e's release.

There was definitely some hubris there.

I just hope this somehow causes Wizards into making a new Spelljammer book for 5e
>>47513950
Well it isn't a space opera in any case. I would love a version of Shadowrun that isn't a clusterfuck though, but that isn't really what I'd expect to find with starfinder

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>>47532405
That definitely surprises me. I thought that Paizo had their corner of the RPG market on lockdown thanks to hardcore fanboyism and the staggering amount of supplements/splatbooks they put out. 5e still only has the 3 core books, some adventures, and some web supplements last I checked, not to mention they're print only and expensive.

>>47532506
There's been growing resentment for Paizo's... well inability to design games for a long time. The year 5e released was they released their Advanced Class Guide which was riddled with editing errors, confusing language, super powerful caster wank, the worst class they released to date, and much more. They immediately followed it with an expansion on the book that patched some of the stupidest things (slashing grace not allowing Swashbucklers to use rapiers effectively), and *massive* errata on the ACG. Since then 1-2 times a year they release massive errata to other books frequently squashing popular martial options (jingasa) or "fixing" nonexistent problems (scarred witch doctor).

People have a real problem with the future of Pathfinder because of their actions.

>>47534702
>the worst class they released to date

The kineticist was in Occult Adventures.

>>47524227

A case or Preparation H won't cure you of that much butthurt.

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>>47503663
Oh shit, I remember this!

>>47534702
Which class is "the worst class"? I find it hard to believe that anything could top the Gunslinger on that front.

>>47536346

C H A R M E D L I F E

>>47523767
>>47507830

What if, gasp, people actually dislike the game on merit of it being poorly made?

>>47532506

People have been getting sick of Paizo once it became obvious that their purpose was to sell a system and not endear their audience to the world that they created.

Say what you will about D&D as a whole but at least you have shit like spelljammer, dark sun, tomb of elemental evil, and the like that are products of the setting and not just thrown in just because "it'd be cool."

In Pathfinder, you have hundreds of fucking options as a character and most of them were inspired by the most bottom-of-the-barrel tastes ever spawned outside of moe shit and slice of life.

You have rules for aliens, robots, augments ripped straight out of shadowrun, cthulhu, not!Godzilla, not!Mothra, firearms, greek fantasy, roman fantasy, aztec mythology, and they just sort of threw it all in without any real plan on how/why they all exist within the same universe.

Then you have shit like this.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry

Once you take a step back from it all, there's just too much shit happening at one time and it all just sort of jumbles together into an indescribable blob.

By contrast, 5e is much simpler to run, simpler to play, and took a lot of the design philosophies that made earlier editions memorable.

They realized how bloated and confusing their rules were, cut the fat, focused on producing a stable core with some options to keep people interested, and released adventure paths that were both nostalgic and a springboard for people who were new to the genre.

Also, "print only?"

I still have faith in WotC, despite 4e being shit and the MTG new world order bullshit. I look at tome of magic, dungeonscape, magic of incarnum, tome of battle and I see that with their dying breath WotC was capable of well designed classes.

I'm praying we'll see more interesting shit out WotC.

Onyx path hasn't been not shit since the god machine.

Paizo hasn't been not shit since the Advanced Player's Guide.

>>47538017
What if, gasp, people learn to articulate their issues with a system beyond "people who play X are faggots"? FFS, I don't even like Pathfinder, but don't act high and mighty about edition-fagging when you are doing just that.

>>47538281

This, holy shit. I'd love if PF had a consistent world that actually took into account things happening in APs (Aside from Shattered Star being a sequel to Rise of the Runelords) and if James Jacobs wasn't the fucking Ken Penders of Pathfinder's storywriting. The "amusement park" or "jungle gym" idea of system building is just lazy at its core and pandering to every type of game style imaginable to get as many shekels as possible.

>>47538281
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry
I'm not very experienced with Pathfinder but why the requirements are so low?

>>47538734

Because casters. Also because it requires people to do math. Casuals hate math.

>>47538365
>Paizo hasn't been not shit since the Advanced Player's Guide.

Nice double negative.

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>>47538585

There are literally pages upon pages upon pages of reasons why people hate Pathfinder.

From its obtuse rules to its ivory tower game design to the way it attempts to quantify everything at the cost of GM/player agency, to the widened gap between martials and casters, to the fact that they somehow managed to make alignments even more cancerous as they were in 3.5 to removing martial options that would've given them an edge because of a combination of bias and their own lack of athleticism (pic related) while giving casters more options that just make them even more difficult to deal with as a whole.

Then there's the fanbase, a group of autistic neckbeards so focused on gaining every bonus possible that they lose sight on what's really important about tabletop games as a whole.

A group of people who will come into a new GM's game with a homebrewed kitsune/slime race with all 18's and spells from homebrewed settings and act indignant when you tell them no. A group of people who will actively try to murder your character in the most bullshit way possible because they can't handle losing. A group of people who will, unironically, claim that 3.PF is the best thing ever yet scoff at other games for having faults that could easily be used to describe 3.PF as a whole.

Overall, Pathfinder brings out the worst parts of the tabletop community, arguably even moreso than 40k.

>>47536346
The swashbuckler is a gunslinger that is locked into mostly melee, has to target full AC, and is Charisma based instead of Wisdom.

On top of that literally everything it does uses swift and immediate actions meaning you *can't* use more than a single class feature at a time - and your primary damage gimmick relies on using multiple class features in one round.

It also uses !grit that can be exchanged with grit, but cannot be unified with grit because that would make too much sense. The swashbuckler being so shit is also what has driven *most* of the errata for the ACG and gunslinger. It's so bad.

What's funnier is they released the "Daring Champion" cavalier archetype which is literally the few good Swashbuckler class features swapping the worst Cavalier class features (and mount) and it made for a great class. then they needed the archetype immediately in errata.

>>47538825
*nerfed not needed

>>47538798

I denied a lot of this because 3.PF was the system I knew best and played longest. In addition I enjoyed the character customization. Unfortunately the mechanics encourage munchkinization and detract from role playing and teamwork at the game table. The big number syndrome is extremely annoying as well.

I'll be moving away from class-based TTRPGs to skill-based systems.

3d6 roll under here I come

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>Same setting as Pathfinder
That sounds hilarious

I am certain that it will be bad as it will just use the same rules and have the same game designers, but at least the rules will be free

>>47538281
>print only?

Aren't the Core 5e books only published in physical hardbound books, with no available oef? Every 5e pdf I have is just scans off an actual paper page.

>>47538365
I noted out of Onyxia path somewhere between Beast and seeing the changes they made to Promethean and Changeling 2.0. I think the final straw was Exalted 3e's garbage layout and atrocious art.

>>47511381
>Oh look the 4e outsold other games meme
>The one that in half a decade has never had a single point of evidence. All from a company that doesn't release sales data.
It's very hard to cresibly deny that Pathfinder is the worlds best-selling RPG

>>47539437
>It's very hard to cresibly deny that Pathfinder is the worlds best-selling RPG


http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/33911/top-5-roleplaying-games-fall-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32097/top-5-roleplaying-games-spring-2015
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/30955/top-5-roleplaying-games-fall-holiday-2014

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=76482&d=1461942896
http://67.media.tumblr.com/4ca45219419aafa03ee71c04aabe81ea/tumblr_inline_o6b3yzvF5e1tmt2jn_500.png

>>47539437
http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/33911/top-5-roleplaying-games-fall-2015
And there is of course the Roll20 industry report which shows that 5e has more than double the amount of players

>>47539520
Oh, you meant in a single quarter?

I guess that's one way to say it. New releases always have a good advantage there. I'll agree if we're not talking about overall sales.

>>47539560
As in all time sales? Of course PF is going to have sold more because it is much older. 5e is certainly on track to eclipse PF though as all statistics have shown.

>>47539524
>Roll20 report

Paizo fosters a retail and home game relationship with its society play. People can find others easily and don't need online as much.

>>47539580
Just like WotC's Adventurer's Guild, right?

>>47539520
>>47539524
Those stats are based on interviews over hard data. And are biased by one game being new. You would be delusional to think that 5e will have such strong sales so long after its release.

>>47539590
Ouch, that was a dick thing to say about 5e. They support AG well enough. Just not as well as PFS

>>47539614
Alright, so where are the sales reports that Paizo has released or any statistics that show that Pathfinder is selling better? 5E does better on most online retailers ranging from Amazon to Barnes & Nobles. Of course ICV2's stats are aggregated based on what individual hobby suppliers and the companies behind them say, so there will be a margin of error, but looking at the wide gap in the player base shows that there is probably more to it than that.

>>47539520
>Dragon & Fantasy Age are rank 4 & 5

Wat

So what system are PF grognards going to migrate to once they finally, eventually get tired of Paizo's shit? Or are they just gonna ride that sinking ship all the way down to the bottom of the Mariana Trench?

>>47542533
There's no escaping this Hell.

When it finally sinks, we'll all die with it.

>>47543711
Maybe you will; I jumped ship five years ago.

>>47542533
PF was successful by basically just being 3.5 with support after WotC moved on, so who knows? Before PF those people were probably still playing 3.5 in favor of other games, so they'll probably keep playing Pathfinder. The obvious option would be 5e, but whatever is keeping them away for now (lack of supplemental material? Free online shit?) would probably have to change

>>47538662
For all the arguments against Pathfinder, this one's rather shit.

There's a lot of screaming and howling against metaplots in general, and you can't really take APs into account, because you can fail to do the adventure.

>>47545779

Here's the thing.

We're talking about APs that introduced shit like aliens, robots, augments, and other shit that just doesn't fit into the established fantasy setting that D&D was going for.

It's hard to sit down and play a game like Pathfinder, knowing that somewhere out in the world of dungeons & dragons, there exists a succubi made of literal shit and feats like "sacred geometry" that anyone could technically take as a feat.

>>47549792
Yes, it's so terrible shit exists that you don't have to actually use, you bleeding retard.

Look, I hate, hate, HATE 3.PF. I think the system should be set on fire, and it's players round up and shot, to prevent the spread of the literal brain cancer it induces.

But your argument there is dogshit. Just dogshit.

>>47550246

The issue is, it exists, it's a part of the world, it will always be there, and players will inevitably take cues from it because it exists and is a part of the world.

Even if you shoot it down and refuse to acknowledge that area of the game, you're caught in an awkward position where you have to purposefully ignore large swathes of the MM and setting just to maintain that fantasy world that D&D was originally supposed to be.

>>47550505
D&D always had shit like Martians and crashed starships though. And this whole argument assumes you're playing in Golarion.

>The Starfinder RPG Core Rulebook (with 500 pages) will be releasing at Gen Con 2017
>The project is still in its infancy.

How can this end well?

>>47550758

>D&D always had shit like Martians and crashed starships though.

They did shit like that rarely and even when they did, it never progressed past the adventure where it was used.

As opposed to Pathfinder where, apparently, everything they release and everything they sign off on is legal and compatible with PFS and they expect you to have access to all of this bullshit.

>>47555350
>They did shit like that rarely
One of the random magical items you could get in OD&D would teleport you to fucking Mars.

>>47555375

Okay, that's one magic item out of hundreds.

Even then, I'm pretty sure you had to roll for it on a random table.

>>47555407
It wasn't specifically Mars, but any Cursed Scroll in LBB OD&D (I can't be fucked searching through the 4 supplements) has a 1/8 chance to teleport you to another planet.

That's 1/8*1/10*3/10**75/100=~3%

That's pretty damn high for being teleported to a whole different planet. It doesn't even say it has to be a planet in the same solar system, either.

>>47555466

Eh, if it just teleports you to a random planet then it's really no different than a plane shift spell.

I mean, even if you, as a player, know what Mars is, the characters aren't and the one guy that does is likely going to die anyways.

>>47555486
It's still a lot worse than a thousand-mile teleport, which is entry 7 for cursed scroll effects.

>the one guy
I probably should have mentioned that the curse affects an area of 30' diameter about the reader.

>>47555523

Anyone who was affected by the spell would be too dead to give a shit about the existence of other celestial bodies.

>>47555544
>too dead
What sort of asshole would make this a TPK, as opposed to continuing the game on an entirely different planet?

>>47555562

If it's Mars, then there won't be any air and you'll be dead. If there's air, then it isn't fucking Mars, for the same reason that the fantasy country that bears vague resemblance to France isn't actually France.

>>47555596
>If there's air, then it isn't fucking Mars
>what is Barsoom?
The first novel is even called Under the Moons of Mars.

>>47555350
>They did shit like that rarely and even when they did, it never progressed past the adventure where it was used.
So like Pathfinder
>As opposed to Pathfinder where, apparently, everything they release and everything they sign off on is legal and compatible with PFS and they expect you to have access to all of this bullshit.
That is OBJECTIVELY false. You cant use technology guide stuff in PFS. You can barely use fucking GUNS in PFS.

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They'd better make fighters awesome in this one.

None of that "crossbows and weapon straps are unrealistic" bullshit.

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>>47555925
>strength builds wearing +str powersuits can't rip and tear because I'm not good at boxing

I can't wait.

>>47555925

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA

>>47555925
>fighters
>good
>Paizo
Pick one.

>>47555897

If shit like ponyfinder is legal in PFS, I'd find it hard to believe that any of the other PFS legal bullshit isn't legal either.

>>47555992
Ponfyfinder isn't legal in PFS. It's third party. Who the fuck is giving you this information?

>>47538825

Don't forget it also has worse saving throws than the gunslinger and has to spend a limited resource to add charisma to a save before the results are revealed at the cost of not being able to use nearly any of its deeds the following turn.

Because the devs agreed, giving it something like Divine Grace would be broken, in the same fucking book that gave any divine caster Divine Grace at level 5 for a feat. This was since admittedly nerfed.