Why are high level wizards far more powerful than high level fighters?

To make up for the fact that a housecat can kill a 1st level wizard

>>47485104
Because HL wizards have a certain mastery over time and space.

HL fighters have mastery over a piece of iron and how to move it.

>>47485104
Wizards bend reality itself while fighters can only bend over.

Bad game design. It's the only reason, and it's inexcusable.

>>47485104
Shit game design.

>>47485137
This
And GM bias

>>47485104
brain beats brawn

A personal GM bias borne from a hatred of jocks

>>47485104
Because the mechanics promised balance but the game world clearly states wizards are stronger.

Also because fuck athletes, they are the enemy.

>>47485104
Because low level Wizards are shit (and often consistently killable in one move) by low level Fighters. Plus Wizards manage a finite resource per day, and are next to useless without it.

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Since this is a 3.5 thread ('cause lets be honest, while there is fighter/wizard imbalance in multiple games, we all know OP is talking about 3.5), here's my suggestion!

In my own games, I just have a very powerful "fighter" class, so the difference is not that great. Here's the recipe:

Start with a Warblade, from Tome of Battle. Increase skill points to 8+int mod, grant all skills as class skills, and have all three saves as good saves. Remove all class features except Weapon Aptitude and Stance Mastery, and in its place give the Swordsage's Sense Magic, Dual Boost, manoeuvres known, manoeuvres readied, and stances known, and access to the Swordsage's disciplines as well as the Warblade's (you still recover manoeuvres as a warblade). Change its proficiencies to the Fighter's (so yes to ranged weapons, heavy armour, and tower shields), and give it Basic Damage: same as the monk's Unarmed Damage, but can apply to any melee attack if the damage value is better. Now scratch out the "warblade" name and call it a Fighter.

This Fighter class is both useful and fun to play. He's as durable as anything, has loads of combat options, and thanks to his skills he is useful out of combat as well.

In the RPG I'm working on, anyone can potentially wear armor, use weapons, use magic wands, scrolls, and rituals.

The "wizard" is recast as the guy who gains progressive bonuses to the wizardy props, and the "fighter" is recast as the guy who gains progressive bonuses to the weapon and armor props.

As a result the fighter is something reminiscent of its 3.x and 4e incarnations, but the wizard is much closer to the 3.x artificer -- he enhances and uses magic items and rituals with greater faculty.

Both can vaguely do what the other can with some faculty (ie a wizard CAN hit someone with a stick, and a fighter CAN activate a portal or resurrection scroll, especially if someone's explained how), just with much less convenience.

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>>47485104
Because of bad game design

>>47485104
Because you play bad systems.

>>47485104
Because the 3e devs hated how in AD&D Fighters could consistently fuck wizards at any stage of the game.

>>47485551

As an AD&D player, nah. That's not really true.

For one, caster supremacy is plenty alive in AD&D. Maybe not as bad as 3e, but still.

For another, its pretty clear that the 3e devs made the Fighter with alright intentions. They overestimated how much feats add to the game, because it was a new thing and they thought they were the best idea ever. Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity (or in this case, naivete).

Surviving to become a high level wizard was tough, so all that power was something you earned. Overtime wizard's were designed to be less squishy earlier on, but still retained the power imbalence.

Other factors include the design choice to limit fighters to be "close" to what is possible in real life and there's no real life wizard to compare the fictional game wizard to, so sky's the limit.

And that wizard's can cast from any school of magic under the sun instead of being more specialized where you would get universal spells and your chosen school spells, nothing else.

Finally the idea of wizard's having a finite resource pool gets thrown out at higher levels when scrolls and wands gets introduced.

>>47485620
A lot of it has to do with 3e being rushed as shit though.
You might remember during AD&D2e a few shitty rushed books came out, including one that had optional rules in how to strip classes of their major abilities and rehash them out via point-buy system where you could spend X points to acquire <feature>. Spells costing fuck loads of points, getting better at fighting usually only costing a few points.

The system was weird and mostly unusable, but its influence on 3e's design was clear. As a lot of the fighter feats were the same as ones fighters could 'buy' in that system. Unfortunately due to still wanting to be a class based system, they only went half-way with this sub-system, making it so fighters had to buy their own abilities, while spellcasters had most of their shit from the start.

>>47485104
Shouldn't they?
A man witht the power to conjure elements and bend reality on one side, a man with a metal stick on the other side.
Geee I wonder how it is possible..

>>47485662
This.

Wizards wield the powers that bend the very fabric of reality to their will.

Fighters wield sharp sticks.

Lets assume your talking in terms of narrative wise power, what makes a fighter less powreful? any level 20 is beyond exceptional and almost demi-godhood levels of power, the only reason you think fighters would only still be "i hit it with my sword" at this point is you/your groups lack of imagination.

>>47485104
Because you're assuming the fighter in unarmed and unarmored.

But unless they're one of those "I have all the magics from level 1" mages from the Federation, a good suit of power armor or even the right kinds of super drugs can make any man-at-arms far more useful in a fight than a magic-user class.

>>47485104
Because DnD and inspired games give casters too big toolbox of different spells and abilities to influence the world. Narrow specialization of magic users can be a lof of fun. Giving all martials chance to learn small magic tricks or divine magic (prayers) is good too.

>>47485662
Congratulations on never playing a game other than DnD.
How does it feel to be the equivalent of being someone who only eats at McDonald's?

>>47485104
>Why are high level wizards far more powerful than high level fighters?+ 0 post omitted.
Depends
On
The
Setting

>>47485683
>Level 20 Wizards wield the powers that bend the very fabric of reality to their will.
>Level 1 Fighters wield sharp sticks.
FTFY

>>47485707
>Level 20 Fighters wield the sharpest sticks
FTFY

>>47485707
What's the difference between a level 1 fighter and a level 20 fighter besides the fact that he has a bigger, sharper stick and stronger arms to wield it?

Explain to me how a muscleman with a sharp stick should be able to defeat a wizard who can bend reality to his will?

>>47485662
>>47485683
There is a simple rule - a bullet travels faster than you can notice it being shot at you. And knifing someone in the face takes less time than making magic gesture to disintegrate attacker.
Here goes your "power to bend the very fabric of reality"

>>47485727
>Explain to me how a muscleman with a sharp stick should be able to defeat a wizard who can bend reality to his will?
Because the muscleman's sharp stick can bend the wizard's reality to his owner will

>>47485727
By being faster than the wizard, just for starters.
By not being dependent on any outside power source and/or limited "fuel" to bend said reality, having reliable sharp stick.
By being combat ready and combat hardened, so keeping it cool when things get nasty.

And so on and forth. If you are basing your entire point on the fact that reality bending alone makes you invulnerable then you, dear sir, are retarded

>>47485727
Levels are a gauge of relative power. If a level 20 fighter and a level 20 wizard are not equivalently threatening to one another, they are not the same level of power and should not be considered the same level.

>>47485727
Shooting someone in the face in any decent and half-decent system is simply more effective. Or throwing a chair at them. Who cares if you can summon M'yigoi, the Demon Lord of 8th Circle, if you are dead before you can move?

>>47485741
U wot m8?

I know people love the whole underdog overcoming insurmountable odds thing but realistically (as much as the term can be used to describe a fantasy scenario) it makes no sense for a fighter to be able to defeat a wizard without some sort of magical or divine aid.

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>>47485778
>it makes no sense for a fighter to be able to defeat a wizard without some sort of magical or divine aid.
Yes, because it totally makes no sense to be killed by catching a tomahawk with your face. Being a wizard makes you apparently invulnerable and immortal.

>>47485778
Aside of course just killing the wizard

I've got a clue for you and I seriously mean it. Go try other games than D&D to see how other systems handle magic. You will realise how absolutely retarded the whole "quadratic wizardy" is.

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Why are wizards bending over reality? Wouldn't that cause all kinds of trouble, like blackholes and getting erased from existence?

A fireball is something real, or else it wouldn't work.

>>47485755
>time stop
>haste
>chain lightning, fireball + a bunch of other offensive spells in quick succesion
>fighter is now dead before he can blink

>>47485766
Fighters can never achieve the same heights of power that wizards can.

Fighters will also inevitably become less powerful as they age. The opposite is usually true for wizards.

>>47485771
Except any half decent wizard has prepared for that eventuality and is very difficult to surprise.

Killing a high level wizard, whilst possible, isn't as simple as walking up to them and shooting them in the face.

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>>47485778

>>47485727
Explain to me how a parlor magician should be able to defeat Conan the Barbarian?

>>47485814
For that to happen, the wizard would have to act first, don't you think?
Oh, right - you didn't.

Seriously, this is NOTHING else than D&D having absolutely awful magic system design that is perpetuated over decades and literally THE ONLY RPG system that has this problem.

I guess we need to give martials some kind of inner-energy magic that draws power from their badassery. Ki or something

>>47485814
>isn't as simple as walking up to them and shooting them in the face.
>I play games where getting shot in the face is not lethal
Stop playing PT, please. Go try other games. They are fun.

>>47485104
But OP, there is bout a single game where it happens and why should you even play it? Everyone knows it's badly designed and there are numerous different, much better games around.

>>47485104
One of them can shape reality, the other one punches things really hard. Go figure out who's stronger.

The answer is that Fighters should built a shitload of anti magic abilities as they level, to contrast them to wizards.

While Wizards seek to tap magical depths, fighters seek to tap physical ones, and then causes them to develop a resistance, and eventual immunity, to magic.

A 20th level fighter should be able to enforce reality, rather than bend it. He can't control it in any way, but he can prevent others from doing so as well.

Want to time stop? No, time will keep moving.

Fireball? Can't exist for real, so it just disappears.

Fighters should be the anti-mage.

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>>47485814
>HURRR
>Muh wisart is unkillable!
>DURRR
Flawless

>>47485859
This

Or at least the single fact all characters should have same extent of competence on the same level. If level 20 mage is absurdly powerful when compared with any other class, then the system is simply badly designed. There are dozens of games that don't have any issues with power progression whatsoever for different characters and yet DD is stuck with this shit.

>>47485859
But magic is as real as the laws of physics in fantasy settings. Just like the gods.

Being able to do 1000 pushups isn't going to prevent you from getting roasted by a fireball.

>>47485859
This is not a very good idea. Rather than making fighters nullify magic, it would be better to make them more suited to survive or shrug off magical attacks. And give them legendary abilities, like hercules and shit. The caster may shape reality but the high level fighter can throw a huge ass boulder in your face or absorb your faggot ass magic with his abs.

>>47485896
>>47485837

Seconding dis

>>47485886
Magic bends reality, that's commonly accepted.

Fighters simply prevent that bending from happening.

>>47485896
The trick is that their abilities need to prevent more than simple attacks. That way the Wizard can't take them out on a technicality.

>>47485886
Applying your logic - being able to cast fireballs won't help you when being split in half. It's just that simple.
Every decent, half-decent and semi-decent tabletop RPG got it as one of the basic rules of engagement. How about you try them out?

>>47485104

Because conceptually, Magic has both a wider scope and an effectively endless power cap. The concept of a "high level" Wizard can be a reality warping demigod, whereas a mundane Swordsman is capped at "Stabbing things really hard." and only competes when given plot-armor(aka GM-pity).

Non-mundane fighters have a much higher power cap and keep up much better with spellcasters, but the average neckbeard starts to whine about "Weaboo bullshit" the instant fighters start doing cool things and stop being the PC equivalent of a mook. If even try to emulate a powerful mythological fighter like the Celtic myth hero Cu Chulainn(solos an army, fights a three day long duel, cuts hills/mountains in half) you'd be call a powergaming faggot.

>>47485859
This is one of the solutions. Other is to give characters more skillpoints and cost in SP for acquiring and improving spells. Magic users spend skill points on magic, martials improve tactics, strategy, social and survival skills or try to become capable fighters/rogues like Conan.

>>47485896
How is a fighter supposed to "shrug off" being hit by a fireball?

It seems like the only way a fighter can defeat a wizard is if he is immune to everything the wizard does and the fight becomes a frail old man with a stick vs Conan the Destroyer.

>>47485104
Because the argument that every class and every spec should be equally powerful is the same reasoning that leads to idiots stating that a degree in trans african genderqueer polyarmory in fandom headcanons should pay the same as a degree in STEM.

>>47485918
>a Swordsman is capped at "Stabbing things really hard"
A gay way of saying "leading armies of angey high-level Warforged"

>>47485949
>high level fighter just becomes a management game
S A S U G A
A
S
U
G
A

>>47485913
>Magic bends reality
DOTS. In many settings only avatars of gods can wield this much power. Or it's completely inaccessible to mortals at all and wizard lighting a candle with his finger would be considered impressive feat.

>>47485653

I always remember the hilarious bullshit that was Sean K Reynolds attempt at a 'Feat Point' system.

The Two Weapon Fighting feats were some of the most expensive. Metamagics were dirt cheap.

He ended up deleting the page, although you can still find it archived, to hide the evidence of such dogshit game design.

>>47485944
Senpai, I'm pretty sure that any top sports player makes more more than any top scientist.

>>47485788
This depends on a setting.
In certain settings wizards can have some many counterspells and defensive spells cast at themselves constantly that yes, they can take a boulder to the face and shrug it off.

>>47485823
It feels like the trouble that most people have is that they can't into different settings.
There are certain settings where wizards are unbeatable reality warping God Kings that can defeat Conan in hand to hand combat, and there are settings where they are weaker of course.

Case in point, I can not imagine any type of a warrior who is not magical himself defeating an ultimate Archmage Mage from old World of Darkness, it just can't happen.

>>47485829
What are you talking about? There tons of systems where wizards are so powerful that they are a distinct splat that is recomended not to be played with rest of the characters.

>>47485859
What setting are you talking about? There are certain settings where immunity to magic just simply does not exist.
Why is so hard for people to realize that mage power levels depend on the setting.

>>47485987
Nigga, what does that have to do with anything? Where did I mention a 'top sports player'.

My analogy was aimed at 'you knew what was going to happen when you chose your class' hence the silly, made up degree.

But if you wanna go there: yeah the sports guy can run really fast and punch really hard, but can he outrun the gauss cannon the scientist is shooting him with from aboard his nuclear energy powered battleship?

>>47485963
is this some name or what? speak understandable language ya git

>>47486064
ごめん

if we're going to use the "but its logical a wizard should be stronger" then lets go logic all the way

wizards no longer get any hp increase from their class, after all they do not learn how to take hits but how to cast spells
speaking about learning, wizards depend entirely on the study of magic for their power, therefor they no longer gain experience from combat given it is not related in any way to the study of magic
as the study of magic is always characterized as being extremely difficult and time consuming to gain a level the wizard must now spend a minimum of 10 years of study

>>47485727
Because in original D&D the Fighter was meant to command a fucking army at max level.

No your level 20 Wizard isn't fighting one guy with a pointy piece of metal, he's fighting 5000 of them.

>>47486068
where is my thousandfold tinfoil fedora

>>47485981

There was always this strange tendency to overprice the shit out of anything that let martial characters do vaguely level appropriate things. See the general unwillingness to let melee fighters move and full-attack; full attacking was pretty much the only real form of damage scaling all martials(other than rogues with sneak attack) had, but they pretty much could never use it. And even then full attacking didn't scale all that well to begin with.

>>47486076
I am fine with that, you know perfectly that someone would still bitch about Wizards being stronger than everyone else at the end of the day though.
Unless you want to make them weaker too in addition to that, which is just retarded.

>>47485318

You should really write that up in a little pdf. Sounds really fun, wish I knew about it years ago.

I completely agree that fighters should be awesome and strong too.

I'm currently playing fantasy age and our unarmed rogue is stronger than either mage. It's great. There's also a mana system so we'll never be completely op

Because people who say that "this option is stronger in this game, so lets make it a complete drag to play or fine tune the other option to being a perfect counter" are retarded faggots. If you want to play D&D, that's fine. But you should recognize that the game likes magic. It likes it a great deal, in fact. If that's a problem for you, if you want magic to suck, or just don't really want to play a magic man, talk it over with your group to play a lower power campaign, or just play a different system entirely.

>>47486094
they still have their spells and all that but they're simply no longer suited as PC's due to the requirements
and if they run out of spells the average housecat kills a lv 20 wizard

>>47486076
>wizards no longer get any hp increase from their class, after all they do not learn how to take hits but how to cast spells
I don't really think this matters. Wizards shouldn't be getting hit in combat no matter what level they are.

>speaking about learning, wizards depend entirely on the study of magic for their power, therefor they no longer gain experience from combat given it is not related in any way to the study of magic
This makes sense. Although you could argue that using spells in a combat situation should count as experience. Wizard should get more experience from reading books and deciphering runes and scrolls.

>as the study of magic is always characterized as being extremely difficult and time consuming to gain a level the wizard must now spend a minimum of 10 years of study
It's difficult for the average person. Wizards have high INT which enables them to learn things faster.

>>47486084
So?

A high level wizard can just summon/gate an army of his own.

>>47485620
With AD&D, I thought caster "surpremacy" was actually done right. Wizards can't wear any armor except rings of protection, robes of magi and archmage (the book's not infront of me right now, so Imight get some of the items wrong sorry), and bracers of defense. They could only use a select types of weapons, and getting a wizard into melee, even one at 20th level, could mean the wizards death. Yes, wizards have amazing spells, but backstab them and they're going to fall, pin them into a corner with a fighter or two and they'll die, assassinations also work quite well against them. Also, don't get me started when a 20th level wizard thinks he's the biggest shit on the block and picks a fight with a god, that never ends well for anyone.

>>47486115
>and if they run out of spells the average housecat kills a lv 20 wizard
What makes people believe that? I mean by level 20 we are talking about a wizard that has tons of artifacts that permanently enchance his body and survivability. I was making cloaks that raise my dex and shit like that as soon as I could even on early levels because it's just a smart thing to do, same with defense spells.
If you want a naked tied up wizard, sure.

>>47486084

Even in old D&D, a fighter didn't have 5000 men under them. The fighter follower table was had a max of 200 level 0 men, with 50 level 1 elite guards, and a single higher level bodyguard.

The only way to get up to 5000 men was to use the henchmen rules, but you could just buy them, and Wizards could do that as well.

>>47486122
if it was merely difficult for the average person instead of impossible that 16 int fighter should also get magical abilities
therefor its only logical the study of magic is so intensive it takes at least a decade to gain the equivalent of 1 level

>>47485981
>the hilarious bullshit that was Sean K Reynolds attempt at a 'Feat Point' system
http://web.archive.org/web/20140202043441/http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html
Is that page you are talking about? I've seen his post about deletion but I don't know if it's the original page or rework.

>>47486164
A 16 INT fighter could learn spells but at that point he would no longer be a simple figher would he?

He would now be a dualclassed fighter/wizard.

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>>47485104

spell list is kinda broken, and metamagic feats are a magnitude more powerful in terms of feats than anything martials get - it'd be like if Fighters could get feats around lvl 10 that allowed them to get AC bonuses from their STR BAB AND their DEX and ignore the penalty to their dodge AC from wearing heavy armor and the AC bonus from shields was now cumulative and you can duel weild tower shields AND weild weapons in each hand and use them each round AND still move that round.

A thought, is there a game or setting where fighter levels cap relatively early but magic user ones just keep going? Or weaker classes level faster?

A level is supposed to be an abstraction of power. A level X fighter should be about as good as a level X wizard. But at the same time, a max level fighter would not be as good as a max level wizard because of the whole... one is a strong guy and the other is a font of primal power 'thing'.

The entire spectrum of a wizard's progression from 'scholar with cantrips' to barcane deity' shouldn't scale directly to 'novice warrior' up to 'master swordsman'.
It doesn't make sense and it causes this problem.

>>47486137
Sounds fun

>>47486164
Decade for level 1 is taking it too far.
5 years is enough for level 1, that being said I would imagine most of the wizards start studies in the early age.
In general experience system is retarded too, after a certain point experience and study of anything should become easier but specialization should become harder.
Getting higher on levels for wizard who already went through basic study should be like school I guess, obviously harder but still. Becoming arch-pyromancer or something like that should take dedication and grinding of that one skill.

Same goes for Fighters too though, people don't just magically know how to use all weapons and all fighting styles.

>>47485104
>Punch something really hard

vs

>Tear through the veils of perception and manipulate the very nature of reality itself

geeeeeee I dunno faggot what do you think ?

>>47486196
>The entire spectrum of a wizard's progression from 'scholar with cantrips' to barcane deity' shouldn't scale directly to 'novice warrior' up to 'master swordsman'.

What about 'Scholar with cantrips' to 'Arcane deity' vs 'Novice warrior' to 'God of War and Death'?

>>47486164
This is where peoples buttmad comes in, he would essentially become a wizard.

Fighter players are also biased, they want to be as strong as the wizard without any mythical or magical powers what so ever, just by doing pure pushups and sit-ups, that's not how it works.
If fighter fags will finally come out of the closet and admit that they have to become at least partially super powered, everything will be simpler for everyone.

>>47486215
>What about 'Scholar with cantrips' to 'Arcane deity' vs 'Novice warrior' to 'God of War and Death'?
D&D 4e solution is best solution

>>47486193
>posts image of Elder Scrolls
This is one setting where being a pure fighter has no excuse.
Everything is made out of creatia, fucking magic is basis of existence and everyone can learn it. Most important of all no matter what you do you can never become as powerful as guys with spirit magic, tonal magic or just overpowered magic by just getting "stronk".

>>47486215
Fighter fags are insecure and they don't want to be super powered, they want all the benefits of being more than just a fighter but they don't want anything in fluff to tell them that they achieved it by more than just push-ups.

>>47486215
That God of war and death would be supernatural however. Because after a while you cap out at what a mundane fighter can do.
Not that that's a bad thing, a setting which had weeaboo fightan magic baked into hibernation level Martials makes sense.

I guess there are a few ways about that, you could have secondary classes that require you to have reached a minimum mundane fighter class level to take, with those secondary classes granting supernatural or arcane benefits and skills.
Meanwhile the wizard has just levelled to the intermediate rank and can't start hurling some firebolts around regularly.

>>47486268
>hibernation
Goddamn I hate virtual keyboards at times. Meant "higher". I don't even know how autocorrect thought I meant that.

>>47486199
It is. A wizard could easy kill someone if they plan ahead (such as having the components ready and such), but at the same time a couple of good hits and there down for the count. The same can be said with all the classes in AD&D, they have there pro's and cons. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I prefer AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, than the other editions of D&D (and I've only played pathfinder once, and I did not have a good time).

>>47486063
>But if you wanna go there: yeah the sports guy can run really fast and punch really hard, but can he outrun the gauss cannon the scientist is shooting him with from aboard his nuclear energy powered battleship?
Yes, by virtue of the fact that no scientist ever has the resources to do that without the backing of an entire fucking nation.

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>>47486214
>>47486223

>Punch something really hard
>Doing push ups and sit-ups

Yeah, I suppose it isn't fair on the wizard.

>>47486427
Said resources are magic in this case and they are limitless, this is part of the setting.
You are arguing about setting details now.

>>47486428
He's some kind of weird mutant. His work-out routine is literally a joke that people get offended over because they think he's making fun of them. Might as well post Superman.

>>47486438
the amount of energy in the universe is also stupidly large, doesn't mean a physicist can use all of it

>>47486445

No, it's said multiple times in the show that he's a human who's surpassed his limits, not a monster.

He's a silly joke version but he IS the idea that a martial character can just train hard enough to get good enough.

>>47486438
>You are arguing about setting details now.
Of course I am, because the level of magic available to mages is intrinsically linked to the setting. Just because a wizard can bend reality some doesn't mean that he can do so without limits and just because a scientist has knowledge of how to make a bomb doesn't mean he can create artificial supernovas.

>>47485981
funnily enough, SKR later recanted on the issue, after he left paizo.

https://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/ex-su-and-martial-characters/

>In other words, if you decide that a level 5 fighter with a shield can deflect a spell back on the caster if he succeeds at his saving throw, that would be okay, for the same reason, because you don’t have to decide “is this something a real, exceptional person could do in the real world?” If you decide that a level 10 fighter is so eager for battle that he can jump 30 feet and still make a full attack, that would be okay, for the same reason. If you decide a level 15 fighter is such a badass combatant that all allies within 30 feet of him deal +25% melee and ranged damage, that would be okay, for the same reason. It wouldn’t matter that the fighter is a “mundane” character who “doesn’t have any magic;” he could still do incredible things that bend Earth’s laws of reality or are even impossible according to Earth’s physics.

>>47486268
>That God of war and death would be supernatural however.

Supernatural, yes. Magical, no.

This is the point of contention. That magic does not encompass the entirety of everything supernatural.

I mean, look at Anima. It does a very good job of separating 'Supernatural' from 'Magical'. A person with ki training is supernatural but he's not magical. He's just pushed past the normal limits of the human body.

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>>47486017
>Confusing settings with gameplay mechanics

>>47486428
He has super powers.
His muscles produce more force than they could possibly hold and we are talking about a different setting.
Also there are wizards in certain settings that are multiversal tier and can genuenly destroy planes of existence and universes.

>>47486523

I will never, ever say this again but:

Hey, lets listen to SKR on this matter!

>>47486045
>There tons of systems
Such us?
Name us 5, hell, name 10, since this shit is apparently so common. And remember - D&D, regardless of edition and sub-setting, counts as one.

>>47486454
It depends on the setting you dumdum.
If setting allows the wizard to use the magical fucking resource it allows the wizard to fucking use it.
You are talking about in universe metaphysics.

>>47485104
Because you are still playing D&D, even if it's AD 2016

>>47485132

Ki dominion, yo.

>>47486503
>Of course I am, because the level of magic available to mages is intrinsically linked to the setting.
Yes, true. In most of DnD settings high enough level wizard can bend reality and that's part of the setting canon, glad we agreed.
And there are many settings where wizards and fighters go far beyond that.

>>47486549
Gameplay mechanics are based on the setting at least partially.
If you try to play Elder Scrolls in DnD 5e you will fail unless you change shit up and even then it's not a faithful representation of how magic works in universe and how magical combat would work.

>>47486063
I don't think that's what scientists do, anon. I really don't.

>>47486581

Fuck Ki, embrace the Edge and get Nemesis.

I can't hear you over the sound of beating the wizard to death with both my own severed arms as I devour his magic.

I think the best setup is one where once you get past a point, everyone's supernatural/superhuman. Yes, you still have some - your wizards, sorcerers or whatever - that straight-up take power, reshape it and use it as spells, but everyone else at that level is supernatural in their own way, even if it's just merely going beyond human limits in their specialty and becoming capable of truly legendary/mythical deeds, whether those deeds are combat-related or otherwise.

People seem to miss understand something, ultimately what Wizard as a concept has formed to be now is something that has the most power growth potential on conceptual level.
Wizard is a scholar that studies all facets of the strongest forces in the universe and has the power to control said powers with enough training, simple as that. If your Wizards are something else it's fine, but that's what DnD Wizards are, they are potentially omnipotent Gods in constant training, hence why a Wizard can possibly overcome even a God, creature that usually bound to one power or aspect.

>>47486583
>In most of DnD settings
In case you haven't noticed, you never specified that you were talking about DnD. Until this point, your argument could easily be interpreted as a general statement that "fighters are meant to be shit and wizards to be strong, so you don't get to complain about your chosen class being shit".

>>47486656
I'm not the original guy, this thread is clearly about the buttmad in DnD, that's what drives me mad.

>>47486655

>Wizard is a scholar that studies all facets of the strongest forces in the universe and has the power to control said powers with enough training, simple as that.

Well, Arcane magic.

He can't touch Divine Prayers, Primal Evocations or Psionic Powers or even Martial Exploits.

>>47486655
>>47486675

Funny thing. Bards have more ability to 'Learn everything' than a Wizard.

Resourceful Magician is a Bard paragon path.

>>47486617

I'd go for Nemesis, but then you can't develop techniques.

It's a sight better for wrecking wizards though, that's for sure.

>>47486600
Which brings us back to the point how D&D shit magic system is D&D own problem, son

>>47486545

And this is the contention, really. A lot of (Not saying all, or even OP) DnD players wonder why fighters are inferior to wizards, and then in the same breath deny the idea that something can exceed mortal limitations without magic.

Psionics isn't magic. Dominion isn't magic. The abilities monks get aren't magic (Even if they are weak), Gods aren't magic.

Because the system made it so

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>>47485104
Because Wizards gain the ability to perform mythic-tier feats of power at a relatively low level, while fighters are at their most powerful treated like a very, very strong dude who can still be stabbed to death by five or ten regular Joes.

At what level does a fighter equal the greatest fighters in myth? Virtually never. As long as you use conventional systems (read: D&D) you will never find a human fighter as strong as Samson. You will never make a warrior as cunning or hardy as Beowulf. Your Barbarian will never be able to reach Hulk proportions, and your monk will be lucky to reach Hulk Hogan proportions. Meanwhile, every magic user in town is looking at a solid Merlin by 5th.

Having said that, if you want a fighter that doesn't suck, make a Ranger.

>>47486655
>Wizard is a scholar that studies all facets of the strongest forces in the universe
Depends on the universe. Gods are clearly stronger than wizards so studying divine power and its sources should be more beneficial in the long run. unless gods punish you for hubris before you reach godhood

>>47486692

Nemesis is generally fantastic for wrecking anyone who relies on a fancy trick. You just drag them down to your level and beat them there.

I do have fond memories of once playing an Elf Warrior Summoner (Went Tarot stuff, not creatures) with Nemesis and Magic Resistance. He was the give-not-a-fuckiest.

>>47486715

My favorite thing in all of 4e?

They stopped calling it Divine Spells. It was Divine Prayers or Divine Invocations. They took steps away from 'It's the same thing with another coat of paint'

>>47486727

I dunno, monks suck hard enough I'd believe they wrestle as well as Hogan did.

>>47486727

Which is bullshit. The concept of 'Levels' at all is supposed to measure things via a degree of power. A fighter of a certain 'level' is supposed to be equivalent to a mage of a certain 'level'.

Otherwise the concept of levels might as well not exist. Yet in DnD to match a level 10 wizard you'd need to be a-... Man I don't know. Level 16 fighter? 24 and epic?

>>47486763

Well it has its limitations. You can't stop people from activating techniques inside your aura with stuff they've accumulated elsewhere, and you can't really shut down controlled monsters because the summoner isn't actively working his powers.

Otherwise though, yeah. It's fantastic.

Though a good interruption ki technique can give you a similar edge, provided you hit someone and they fail the resi- okay, yeah. That's the tricky bit.

>>47486759
>Depends on the universe.
>Gods are clearly stronger than wizards
Apply the first to the second.
There are settings where certain wizards have become stronger than Gods

>>47485104
Because somewhere in mid-80s people forgot that high-level fighter is not a single powerful guy, but a guy that is leading progressively bigger and bigger armies. By level 20 you were suppose to be AT LEAST a really powerful baron with sizable army of mid-level badasses under you.
Hence it made sense that single wizard was stronger, because he was facing a fucking army against himself. When the whole barony concept was cut out, you ended up with single guy with sharp stick that was stripped from his main assets AND his own power was also downplayed greatly, while wizards remained at the same point.
In short, the problem is not about quadratic progression of magic power, but turning fighters progression into linear one.

>>47486783

Oh yeah, it's far from perfect.

I still enjoy it a lot though. Though a lot is due to aforementioned character I played once.

There is something amazing about 'I can put a limb back on given a few minutes' levels of natural healing meeting 'I take no penalties for any injury that doesn't kill me, including lost limbs'.

Nemesis is silly and edgy and I love it.

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>>47485104
they dont have to be. and mythology is full of badass fighters. samson, heracles, gilgamesh, beowulf. your setting can have epic fighters too:
>a barbarian so impossibly strong that reality warps and cracks under the power of his muscles.
> a knight that can slice a tear in time with his sword
> a warrior that can shoot earthquakes by smashing the ground with his bec de corbin
>a ranger so fast that he can jump over mountains

>>47486545
This motherfucker gets it.
Anima wizards are strong, but they'll still drop like a rock if they can't actually accumulate the Zeon(Mana) to cast their "Fuck Everything" spells.
And martials have ways of making them not accumulate at all.
Or they can just chop the spell in half.

>>47486827
Problem is with fags who don't want their fighters to be super powered

>>47486827
none of these are mundane fighters

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everybody should just play a Bard, best of both worlds

>>47486867
No character over level 5 is mundane. And in most legends, preternatural/supernatural/exotic/legendary powers are both distinct from spells, and available to martials.

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>>47486852
i would say the real problem is people who dont ignore fags. fags will always exist. people just need to ignore them.
>>47486867
so?

>>47486786
>There are settings where certain wizards have become stronger than Gods
Yep, but I don't play them. Destroying integrity of the setting to powerwank your wizard character is a bad taste.

Btw, Dragon Lance sucks ass.

>>47486783
>>47486824
My brethren of Kwa descent.
Currently rocking a Nemesis Warlock(Essence/Earth) with Eternal Bloodline.
He's not strong offensively, as he's more the party's artifact crafter(doing commission work for both Black Sun and Wiss to help pay for ingredients), but he's survived several assassinations by dint of One with the Nothingness.
Still lives in fear of ticking off the Technician of the group, but that's to be expected.
Though it is fun killing things by using Share Essence, then tearing yourself apart.

>>47486921
>Destroying integrity of the setting to powerwank your wizard character is a bad taste.
I am not talking about DnD settings in this case, there are settings where it's part of the integrity of the setting, like Malazan and Elder Scrolls or Exalted if you are into weebing.

>Character A spends 7 levels optimizing his character for grappling, wants to be the world's best grappler, spends all his precious and rare feats to become better at this
>Level 7 wizard just learns Black Tentacles which does the same thing but better, and is also still a motherfucking Level 7 wizard

3.5 is just too stingy with feats. Popular options like Improved Trip builds, Dungeon Crasher, Leap Attack, and many more should be much, much easier for a single character to get. As it stands, people generally have to have their mundane guy just pick one thing to be good at while the wiz gets to be good at everything and can further tune their choices every single day.

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>>47486877
>Playing bards as anything else than travelling minstrels
>Giving them magic powers to boot
And then people ask me why I give D&D shits...

>>47486958
I don't like Malazan much. Elder Scrolls doesn't take itself too seriously.

>>47486958

Mind you, many fighters have also become stronger than gods.

A Dawn will kick a gods ass harder than a Sorcerer Twilight.

>>47485814
>Fighters can never achieve the same heights of power that wizards can.
In D&D 3.5. Which is shit.

>>47486975
>2016
>Playing 3.5
But why?

Sincerely and honestly - why? It's open masochism to keep playing it. I'm not even talking about different games, I'm talking about different editions. Everyone knows this is the worst edition of them all, right with PT, yet people are in vain trying to "fix" this game or just play it as it is for more than a decade. What fucking for? It's like putting your fingers into power socket, get electrocuted and then put them there again, because that's the only entertainment you've got. While clearly hating the experience.

>>47487020
>But why?
>Sincerely and honestly - why?
RPGs are social games. You will play what other people play or you won't be able to find a group.

>>47487004
The same is true for every version of D&D.

>>47485755
The trouble is, wizards also have the fastest reaction times (initiative) in the game. At early levels wizard can afford to take improved initiative unlike the fighter who is already desperately trying to fix his broken car of a class and needs to take something else to bring him up to speed. At mid levels the wizards will have so many initiative boosting divinations that either last all day or are available on demand. Later on A non diviner will have around an initiative modifier of 19+level and a diviner would have 19+level*1.5 or even go first automatically if he's sufficiently high level. Meanwhile your typical str fighter will have around +8 while your full on 30dex fighter gets a +16 and yes, for the sake of comparison the wizard also took only 10 dex because its a piece of shit stat.

>>47487050
Nope. Pretty much just 3.5. In no other edition was caster imbalance as much of a problem.

>>47487040
>You will play what other people play or you won't be able to find a group
Which is completely stupid and baseless assumption. Unless you are living in Nowhere, Kansas and without internet connection, you will be ALWAYS able to find different group.
Also, you can simply talk with your group about playing something different or give other game a try.

But staying in shitty situation that doesn't suits you and in the same time cementing yourself in by assuming nothing can be done, thus not even trying? That's just depressing. Because it means there are people so socially inept to handle their own fun and forcing themselves into situations that don't work for them.

>>47485941
He can do that but then the fight becomes 2v1 where its a lone wizard vs a wizard dragging around his walking liability (ie the fighter)

>>47487056
>in the game
You mean in D&D, right? Because my post in no way mentioned D&D, but tabletop RPG in general. Can /tg/ FINALLY learn that unless post is clearly stating Game A, then it's NOT about Game A.

>>47485941
There is better solution, or even solutions.
First - stop playing 3.5. That's the only edition with this fucking problem being so extreme.
Second - return 0D&D levelling. So modern level 20 is roughtly lvl 5 in 0D&D.
Third - return baronies. This was the only reason why fighters were useful and balanced with wizards.

>>47487073
>Unless you are living in Nowhere, Kansas and without internet connection
I'd prefer to live in Nowhere, Kansas really

>>47486989
people becoming stronger than Gods in TES was not due to TES not taking itself seriously, usually because of metaphysical fuckery one can achieve through trickery

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>>47487163
>metaphysical fuckery one can achieve through trickery
>TES not taking itself seriously
This is what CHIM is and hundred other things at the same time

>>47487139
If you are the original anon and not living in such place, stop fucking bitching about being unable to find new/different group.

>>47487195
Doesn't have to do with just CHIM.
Revenant moon is tricky fuckery, all mantling is tricky fuckery, all dawn and spirit and tonal magic is tricky fuckery, etc.
CHIM just make you arguably stronger than all Gods, but there are ways to be more powerful than majority of Gods.
Really this all comes from the fact that distinction of God and mortal is arbitrary in TES, everyone is an Ada both mortal and God, mortals are just stabilized and bound. If mortal becomes strong enough and fucks with Aurbis enough there is no reason why he should not be called a God.

>>47487201
Whatever

>>47485318
Doesn't that invalidate all the other martial classes?

>>47487110
>Second - return 0D&D levelling. So modern level 20 is roughtly lvl 5 in 0D&D.

>Surely it's not that bad
>check 5e PHB
>level 20 = 355,000 XP
Jesus. That's halfway to level 10 for an OD&D or AD&D Fighter, and 5k off level 10 for a Basic Fighter.

>>47486827
>> a knight that can slice a tear in time with his sword
What if it's a samurai?

>>47486976
You sound pathetic. I bet you get the shits all the time.

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>>47487265
>>47487110
I didn't realise the WotC editions were this much lower than the TSR editions.

>>47487533
>that 5e curve
Finally done right

>>47487560
The 4e one's pretty nice too, it just looks weird because I lopped the third tier off. I'm working on the OD&D and AD&D 1e ones now.

>>47487607
Thank you, I'm quite interested in seeing the differences.

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>>47485104
>Why are high level wizards far more powerful than high level fighters?
Poor game design. Most "modern" RPGs are saddled with lots and lots of vestigial concepts left over from the pre-roleplaying wargaming era.

Just think how boring LotR would be if Gandalf stepped in and took care of every problem on his own.

>Orcish horde? FIREBALL! FIREBALL! LIGHTNING BOLT!
>Malicious ruler? CHARM PERSON!
>Hobbit knocked a bunch of armor down a well? FEATHER FALL! SILENCE!

This is one of the main reasons why Barbarians of Lemuria is my favorite fantasy RPG these days. It nerfs casters hard and forces them to come up with solutions that aren't just "I cast a spell and win the encounter!"

>>47485104
Because a fighter is just somebody who is good at killing people with weapons. Even the most legendary among them is still only a warrior wielding a weapon. They can swing a sword and cleave anyone stsnding within reach, shoot a bow and take out four or five targets at once, and take tremendous physical punishment before going down.

A high level wizard is someone who has advanced command over fundamental forces of nature. They can create private planes of reality, mindbreak someone to their will, or just disentegrate you.

How could a fighter compare even begin to compare to that, without taking up magic himself? He can't.

>>47486122
>I don't really think this matters. Wizards shouldn't be getting hit in combat no matter what level they are.
Right, dying to a stiff breeze doesn't matter. Having 10 HP at high levels is a good way to die no matter who you are unless you wanna do something relevant in combat. A good 5 commoner archers with adamantine arrows kills that, even with mirror image and such.

>>47486214
>Bisect a bear with a single swing

vs

>Plink at something with missiles weaker than a good bow

Geeee, how do wizards even compete?

>>47486465
He has no clue how he does it. Genos even explicitly calls him on the fact that normal training like what Saitama described wouldn't get him anywhere like where he is.

>>47485137
This.
Also a lot of skill checks don't scale either.
Flying is worth around 300 of Jump and Climb.
Invisibility is worth 20 Stealth.

>>47485295
But anon, go kill yourself. The trio is Wizard, Cleric and Druid.
Cleric and Druid is both a better martial class than Fighter.

>>47485104

Because mages accept that magic is better than non-magic while martials continue to bitch about how a dude who can only swing a piece of fortified metal isn't really in high demand once you're fighting creatures who laugh in your face for bringing that weak shit into the fight.

>>47487251

Only in the sense that rather than there being like 6 shitty classes, there's one decent class.

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>>47487624
The 1e Druid, Assassin, and Monk don't go to level 20 (14, 15, and 17 respectively). Next I will put all editions on the same graph, just to see how much of a clusterfuck it is. Might also drop the log scale for that one, to make the differences more obvious.

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>>47487890
And here is something unintelligible.

>>47485104
Magic and magic user's are typically plot devices in works of fiction, the author's DMPC or McGuffin if you will. The issue when it comes to most d20 based/D&D inspired ttrpg's is that caster characters maintain this level of power. Some of them realize it, others don't. Either way it generally lead's to the unwinding of a carefully constructed plot, which, in a group storytelling environment typical of most ttrpg's, is lethal, as you're know placing more control over the story in the hands of a single player, or two.

It's the mark of a system who's creator's don't understand the difference between a book and a ttrpg. One has one or two authors and a publisher, the other has five or more author's acting together with one acting as the publisher.

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>>47487811
>I play 3.x

>>47485104
>masqurin
>old hag face pixy

No, fuck off.

>>47486764

Back then, levels also scaled differently depending on the class that you were playing.

A level 10 wizard was equivalent to a level 5 mage and each class also leveled up differently from different ways.

Monks had to beat a grandmaster, Barbarians had to destroy magical items, Mages had to learn spells, etc.

>>47488036
>Barbarians had to destroy magical items, Mages had to learn spells
Mages and barbarians level as normal in 1e, the hell are you thinking of?

>>47488072

That's how it worked in AD&D/2e.

>>47488095
No it isn't. Mages learning spells is not related to them going up in level, and the 'Barbarians destroying magical items' thing is a bonus, not a requirement.

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>>47485118
Wow, first post actually won the thread.

a 20th level barbarian will always win initiative, can sprint 300ft in a turn, and kill the 20th level wizard in one hit.

>>47488198

Ah, my mistake then.

>>47488251
So what? So can 99% of the CR appropriate challenges at that level.

The wizard wins DnD by not playing that game, he retires in a demiplane or a city he has populated with undead where he doesn't have to deal with the world.

That barbarian can go do whatever he wants.

>>47488251
If the wizard hasn't prepared properly, then maybe... but likely not...

>>47485318
I just tell my players to go crazy looking for homebrew feats when they play fighters, and if they don't end up as strong as a wizard, they at least end up having some cool shit. I also use magic resistant enemies sometimes, so that wizards are relegated to support for a moment.

>>47488339
You say that, but keep in mind your 28Int means nothing, when the players still an idiot.

>>47488367
Just roll to ask the DM what you should ask when using divination spells. That way you can roleplay the high int.

>>47485318
Stop playing 3.5.

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Because 3.PF inflicts lasting brain damage.

>>47485295
they're not shit, they just have advantages and disadvantages. like a class is supposed to. the wizard just outgrows their limitations while the fighter keeps theirs.

>>47486196
Every edition of d&d before 3rd had different experience point progression for each class. By the time you were a level 10 mage you were a level 14 fighter or level 18 rogue.

>>47485104
Their not.

People just put restrictions on what they consider a fighter.

IMO a high level fighter is akin to:
Conan (Able to just ignore magic through sheer will power)
Hercules (Half-God? Yes we did say high level. You can rise into godhood as you level)
Bullet/Magic deflecting swords & Other Asian troops (They don't all neatly fall into monk)
Book of Nine sword (...)


Peoples opinion limit the arch type to "Dude with mortal weapons, can fight good." That needs to stop.

>>47486196
>barcane deity

I could worship a magical alchohol god.

>>47488414
What's the source on the "TEAM game" image?

>>47488414
thanks for reminding me.

Take a wizards spellbook away.
Got nothing for sorcs yet though.

Fighters are still fun.

I played in a group with a power gaming wizard who, while still clearly having fun being powerful as fuck, didn't do anything interesting at all beyond being overpowered. I built a fighter to be a charismatic guy, and later built him up powerful as fuck. I wasn't as strong as the wizard, generally, but I had control of a mercenary company that could take on armies several times larger, a sword as long as I am tall and as wide as my thigh which I threw like a knife with impeccable accuracy, two wives (one of them the wizard's cousin, the other my own cousin), a magic suit of armour I built myself with the help of the wizard. I could go on.

>>47488473
Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit

>>47488437
>OD&D
Level 10 MU is level 8 Fighting-Man and level 10 Cleric.
>AD&D 1e
Level 10 MU is level 9 Ranger, Cleric, Assassin, and Fighter, level 8 Paladin and Monk, level 10 Illusionist, and level 11 Thief and Druid.
>AD&D 2e
Level 10 Mage is level 9 Fighter and Cleric, level 8 Paladin and Ranger, and level 11 Druid, Thief, and Bard.

>>47485318
So 5e battlemaster with a monk/rogue dip?

>>47488473
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Originally a parody of bad super-hero team-ups.

>>47488540
sure. whatever helps man.

>>47488552
Thanks anon, I was looking for that.

>>47488540
5e sucks

>>47488374
>That way you can roleplay the high int
No anon. That means you shouldn't try to play people smarter than yourself. The exact same rule applies to writers - NEVER try to write character smarter than yourself.

>>47488674
Unless you have excellent Bluff checks.

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>>47485104
Because wizards level up more slowly than fighters, so they're always about on par.

>>47488674
I disagree. That would limit RPG players a lot. Not that they're/we're stupid, but few are genius, and it's fun to play/play with a genius.

>>47486255
Not everything is magic, you stupid motherfucker. EX abilities are explicitly not magic, but that don't stop the bitchtears from you.

>>47487073
And people wonder why I have a violent hate for 3.PF existing still.

>>47488742
But fighters level up more slowly before level 10.

Also, don't pretend the early games were about balance. They were about fun.

Nobody gave a fuck about game balance.

>>47488755
Its not "magic" within the game rules, but its fucking magical powers.

>>47488849
>Its not "magic" within the game rules, but its fucking magical powers.

>It's not magic
>But it's magic

What?

>>47488849
This x 1000.

The whole "everything has to be balanced" mentality is the cancer killing D&D.

D&D is not a fucking video game. It has no competitive element to it. It's a fun pastime where crazy and unexpected things happen all the time. It's not meant to be balanced.

"class balance" is a buzzword imported from MMOs and has no place in D&D.

>>47488849
>Also, don't pretend the early games were about balance. They were about fun.
>Nobody gave a fuck about game balance.

but the books specifically say otherwise

>>47488896
It is a teamwork based one, and nobody likes being the weakest link

>>47488879
It's the faggot from this thread whining and crying still.

>>47477049

>>47488922
Not just the weakest link, so weak you are replaced by a fucking class feature.

>>47488922
There will always be one character who is more or less useful depending on the situation.

In other words, there will always be a weakest link.

If one character is consistently undererforming by a considerable margin then perhaps the DM can intervene to remedy the situation if appropriate.

>>47485295
But low level wizards can still cast nerveskitter + color spray to I win once per day.

>>47488414
The caster has the potential to outshine a melee if optimized extensively, ergo the ruination is automatic.

In simplicity; Ignore the existence of:

Any limitation by rest
Any limitation by number of spell slots
Any limitation by spells known
Any limitation by diversity of preparation
Any limitation by total wealth
Any limitation of access to magic items
Any material components
Any verbal/somatic requirements
Any concentration requirements
Any variety of enemies
Any variety of environment
Any limitation to flying such as a dungeon
The general uselessness of their feats
Time involved in any task
Any creature with immunity to mind effecting
Any creature with any other immunity
The non-allowance of all splat books
Any chance of enemies succeeding on saves
Any chance of them failing a save
Any chance of them taking any damage, ever
Any chance of them not knowing every single spell, again
Any concept of separation of knowledge between in character and out of character for anything on this list
Rule Zero
Any idea that their best spells are better on team mates
Any influence from a DM at all to make the world make logical sense.
Any idea that the game has teams at all
Any concept that there is no winning an RPG
Any chance of any non-detection spell
Any idea that they are not invincible, again
Any idea of the RAW limitations on most of their spells, from Rope Trick to Summon Monster to Teleport.

This is the short list, about 20% of what you have to ignore to make them always have an "I Win" button.

>>47488955
>If one character is consistently undererforming by a considerable margin then perhaps the DM can intervene to remedy the situation if appropriate.
So every time there is a martial in a party with at least one tier 1 or 2 class.
At a certain point, you have to realize if DMs must frequently "intervene" to fix the game, something is just wrong with the game.

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>>47488896
>"class balance" is a buzzword imported from MMOs and has no place in D&D.

this is pure revisionism

>It is important to keep in mind that, after all is said and done, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a game. Because it is a game, certain things which seem "unrealistic" or simply unnecessary are integral to the system. Classes have restrictions in order to give a varied and unique approach to each class when they play, as well as to provide play balance.

>Clerics and fighters have been strengthened in relation to magic-users, although not overly so. Clerics have more and improved spell capability. Fighters are more effective in combat and have other new advantages as well. Still, magic-users are powerful indeed, and they have many new spells. None of these over-shadow thieves.

this is from 1st edition, 1977. it was written before the release of asteroids. MUD1, precursor to the MMO genre, would not be created for another 10 years. it's safe to say video games were not on their minds.

>>47489004
>Optimized extensively

In literally the first sentence, you prove yourself an idiot.

Is a druid with natural spell optimized extensively?

>>47489011
You're just exaggerating.

I've never had to intervene to fix the game and I've only seen it happen a couple of times which had nothing to do with the disparity between martials/casters.

You're creating a problem where there isn't one.

>>47489088
>I've never had to
And I've had to frequently. Guess we're in an anecdote stalemate

>>47489085
No, but one with an extremely specific stat build, the most optimal monsters cherry-picked from every splat book, and picking only the spells that the forums tell him to pick is.

And he's still not as good at fighting as a fighter, much less a barbarian.

>>47489117
Well yes, but that anon, and myself, don't have to make it up just to try and win an argument.

>>47489117
>Frequently is technically accurate when you have never even played a TTRPG.

>>47488755

They are magical in origin though.

You can't just gain shit like regeneration from lifting weights and eating your wheaties.

>>47488955

People don't like being the weakest link and even less people want to be given hand outs just to compete in an area that they're expected to handle.

Think about it, you set yourself up to be Goku only to realize that you're fucking Yamcha, except even weaker and rendered useless by default.

>>47489147

What?

How did you reach that stupid ass conclusion?

>>47489256
>You can't just gain shit like regeneration from lifting weights and eating your wheaties.
You do get it from evolution, though. I'm not sure if you know, but "regeneration" is not a fantasy term.

>>47489288
Again, you are exaggerating.

Fighters are not completely worthless. Sure, they're not as strong as wizards but they're not useless either.

I see no problem here. Classes will never be 100% balanced anyway.

>>47485104
Because fantasy authors and wizards share one thing in common: they are weak faggots. To compensate for being beta as fuck, fantasy authors make wizards more powerful than warriors.

>>47489004
Even if we don't ignore all of that and have the wizard be controlled by a first-time player who just goes through the spellbook and chooses what sounds the coolest, the wizard would still have a decent amount of creative solutions to most problems in and out of combat. Even if you give most enemies immunities, even if you limit components severely, even if you make almost every dungeon a no-magic space, the wizard would still have some versatile utility.

Meanwhile, the fighter would need three feats to chew bubblegum and walk at the same time, one more feat to do that without provoking attacks of opportunity and one more to make it a move action instead of a full-round one, and by level 20 he will probably be semi-decent at tripping enemies if he spent hours carefully net-building his feats and stats to this end. And tripping enemies is all he'll ever be able to do.

>>47489328
>they're weak faggots
>they're more powerful than warriors

At least put some effort into your b8.

>>47489177
Well D&D's more wargame than TTRPG so I guess you're right.

>>47489317

Now you're just arguing semantics.

>>47489439
Stop playing 4e.

>>47489324
Then you won't mind playing the monk in a party of Wizard, Druid and cleric.

>>47489324

They're forced into spending most of their feat slots just to be good at one thing, one thing that will either be dealing damage or a maneuver like grappling or tripping that will end up being rendered moot by the existence of spells and enemies that are just plain better than you in every single area that matters.

In fact, that's the issue with a bulk of martials, their existence lives on how much damage they can deal yet the game makes this process harder and harder as you gain levels. The progression doesn't reflect the idea of you becoming stronger so it just feels like you're playing a shitty RPG like TES where you'll always be weaker because enemies level up with you.

Meanwhile, mages just get stronger and more versatile with each level.

>>47489334
You mean, decent at tripping if he take improved trip, combat reflexes and a reach weapon. Hardly netbuilding, and hardly takes level 20 to get to that. High end fighters are going ubercharging+karmic strike/robilar's gambit+decisive strike to 1 round just about anything. Fighters and wizards are both easy to fuck up, wizards possibly even more so since there's as many garbage spells as there are good ones, while a fighter with good str/con can still frontline decently even with 0 good feats.

>>47489560
>shitty RPG like TES where you'll always be weaker because enemies level up with you
I never got everyone's issues with level scaling. I never want to outpace the world around me statistically, I just want to be able to do more. From an RPG standpoint it doesn't even make sense to just become more resistant to knives to the face as you progress.

>>47485104
A 20th level fighter could still take a 20th level Wizard one on one in 2e, no matter how "much" he prepared. His resistance checks to virtually all the wizards spells guaranteed him a solid chance of killing him before the fact, or dying instantly.

>>47489388
He's talking about the writers being weak, you dipshit.

>>47485104
because you're playing a shit system

>>47489708

>I never got everyone's issues with level scaling.

Because the theme of an RPG is "growing stronger" and gaining levels only to find that opponents are still capable of OHKO'ing your ass even after all that time and energy and grinding just makes you want to say "why did I bother?"

>>47489685

You have it backwards mate.

Wizards can earn spells through scrolls and wands and staves and still keep up even if their starting spell list is garbage.

Meanwhile, if you pick one bad feat, you're basically playing a flunky who will always be only marginally better off than a commoner wearing armor and swinging a sword around.

>>47485104
because in earlier edition wizards had a harder time surviving to become high level, and took longer getting there. it was a risk/reward dynamic. wasn't meant to be perfectly 100% balanced.

more recent editions changed the xp rates and gave wizards bonus spells at low levels, and fuck the game design up because they didn't think things through.

>>47489803
That's where the "do more" part comes into play.

>>47489838
Not even slightly. If you have strength and power attack you can always swing a greatsword around decently. If you don't know what you're doing with spell selection, the ability to get more isn't gonna help you. 'sides, a lot of a fighter's strength comes from equipment anyway if you wanna go the 'wizards poor selections are fixable' route.

>>47485104
I feel I should also mention that it highly depends on what enemy your fighting (along with what system your using).

Because the different editions are just that, "different" and not objectively superior or better, you're not restricted from going back to them and there's no system that's exactly superior to another, because they all have huge flaws.

>>47489866
There's also the fact that the fighter can use tower shields as total cover, preventing him from being targeted.

>>47489866

You're assuming that someone who has never played 3e D&D is going to know to pick something like Power Attack though.

There are a ton of trap options that are designed to fuck over newbies starting out their first adventure and many people will fall for these because they aren't aware of how insidious the devs are.

Like, there are some people who see stuff like "extra health" and "bonus to running long distances" and go "wow, that sounds pretty fucking cool," only to start play and slowly realize that they're gimped and end up dying because those "cool" feats didn't help him out any.

At least with spells, most of them are okay and even if you pick a bad one, you could always learn more and prepare those spells instead of the garbage ones you started out with.

Not to mention, Fighters live or die by how effectively they were built and the game's assuming that you and the party are all equally capable of dealing with threats on your own. A wizard by contrast is expected to sit in the back of the row and shoot spells every so often until their spell selection improves and they gain access to shit like invisibility, fireball, and flight.

>>47489958

There are plenty of effects that come out in an AoE or just don't give a fuck about your total cover.

>>47489685
Okay, the Fighter can kill shit with some investment. And he only needs several levels to become decent at a single situational combat maneuver that can be emulated by a spell, not 20, my mistake.

Meanwhile the Wizard can kill shit a little worse, but he can also fly, teleport, craft items, create illusions, use telekinesis,illuminate dark areas, trip, blind and daze enemies, and more. In and out of combat. Having more utility in a level 2-3 wizard's spellbook than in all of a level 20 fighter's feats.

One player has utility in and solutions for every aspect of roleplaying, The other sits around and twiddles his thumbs until time comes to barbarian someone in the face with his axe. And even if he can barbarian very hard, he's still kind of a fifth wheel for most of the time.

>>47490038
Human fighter can trip fine at level 1, thanks very much. And the person who can wipe combats by himself in a system based around combat is just fine.

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>Someone summons millions of animals
>The DM insists on each animal having individual rolls
>Each turn for the caster lasts like half an hour as a result

>That same PC tryhards all the time in battle and breaks RP to bitch at other people for acting as their character would, to a fault. Like a halfling afraid of spiders who refuses to attack or get near spiders

I'm not saying all casters are fucking assholes who ruin fun but if there was an "asshole census" of D&D the large majority would be casters.

>>47485104
Fighter
>Needs good Str, Dex, and Con
>Can be disarmdd by disarming them or binding them

Wizzy\Caster
>Needs high spellcasting stat
>Needs hands bound, mouth gagged, eyes covered, constant concentration breakers to be subdued.

Kind of obvious. In 5e there literally is no way to temporarily stop a caster from casting because there is no rule to grab their hands and stop them from wiggling their fingers. It requires GM arbitration.
A martial? Take their weapon away. Punches do 1 damage.

>>47489993
If a spell has an AoE, it more than likely also has an ability save.

If a wizard used something like, I don't know, cone of cold against a barbarian, he would need to take a reflex save, and if this is a high magic setting, it would be a very wise choice to max out Dex and Con because he would effectively cut in half lots of save based damage or completely ignore it.

His reflexes would be 3 + dex + 2 (from lightning reflexes), and he would have a natural +6 on fortitude saves. So if he even has just a 14 dex, his reflex save is already +7.

To put things into perspective, a high spell DC is considered to be about 22, and a Bard has a higher reflex save than the Barbarian.

>>47490135
>Needs hands bound, mouth gagged, eyes covered, constant concentration breakers to be subdued.
Just the first two, actually. So like one step above how you treat a regular prisoner? Also punches do 1d3+str+misc, and high-end fighters can flex their way out of whatever restraint you put them in. That's not mentioning improvised weapons.
>Needs good Str, Dex, and Con
Just the first and last unless you're running an AoO build, in which case you don't need con as much since less things are getting near you.

>>47490135
Caster
>needs high spellcasting stat
>needs to take feat in eschew materials
>needs feats to help overcome spell limitations
>if he has one aspect of his spell requirement cut off, he cannot cast, unless he takes another feat to be able to do so, removing a feat slot for spell buffs
>all his spells have a chance of not working at 20th level, while even during a full attack a Cleric can still make 2 more tries if he misses
>a fucking cleric

Glossing over rules doesn't mean they don't exist.

>>47490158
If the fighter misses one saving throw he's dead.

He cannot even reach the wizard who can fly and teleport wherever he pleases.

Not to mention the fact that the wizard can just summon help that can kill the fighter without the wizard even having to lift a finger.

You're insane if you think a fighter has a chance to defeat a high level wizard.

>>47490158
his reflexes would be +3 at level 9*

Fuck.

>>47486243
Isn't this the same setting where a fucker literally split an atom by swinging his sword hard enough?

>>47490206
>he's dead

Assuming the fighter doesn't have thunderstones, which require a fortitude save to beat, the caster is going to be at an automatic disadvantage with an additional 20% chance of miscasting any spell he uses, on top of any ability saves, ontop of targeting him while he's concealed (he could easily just drop a smokestick, which would require a spot check from the wizard to see the individual since the spellcaster needs to see his target before casting)

>>47490268
any spell he uses with a verbal component*

(though since almost every spell that isn't divine requires verbal components, it's the same god damn thing)

>>47488896
Well said anon

>>47490268
Your hypothetical scenario involves the fighter having an array of items, magical or otherwise, ready to take on the wizard while the wizard needs no such preparation to dispatch a fighter.

Explain to me what your fighter will do when the wizard simply summons/gates a bunch of shit from the lower planes to tear the fighter apart.

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Classes should have LA.

>>47490197

Caster

> Gets Polymorph @ lvl 7 and makes Fighters redundant

>>47490241
In Elder Scrolls universe is made up of mad synesthesia of the Godhead, mix of memories, sounds, colors etc.
Tonal architecture is the most scientific way to manipulate said synesthesia and it's the single strongest technique that exists because it's direct reality manipulation on the level of the very plane upon which existence exists including Gods, all dimensions etc.
Tonal Architecture is a Dwemer science but it was based on natural older Tonal martial arts and magics, like Thu'um and Sword Singing.
Sword Singing and Ansei Sword Saints are basically Redguards that do combat chants so powerful they bend outcome of battle and reality in their favor, once a singer becomes Ansei Sword Saint he forges what is basically a lightsaber out of his own soul, that's called the Shehai.
The most advanced Shehai technique, Pankratosword allows a group of Ansei sword saints to concentrate and ritualistically cut a particle blowing themselves and the whole continent up.

>>47490346
Kill them, since summons are always massively under CR'd for the level. Also a couple of cheap alchemical items handy in multiple circumstances doesn't count as 'an array of items ready to take on the wizard'. Also 'summon monster y' spells take a full round to cast.
>>47490382
Call me when casters get robilar's gambit, karmic strike, shock trooper and Decisive Strike.

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>>47488849
>>47488896
The books objectively state that the DM can make changes to the rules as he see fits in order to balance out the level of play.

In 3rd and on, this usually means restricting spellcasters.

In 2e and before, it usually means restricting melee'ers.

This idea that either class should be more powerful is just retarded, and you can still get away with cheesing the fuck out of wizards if you think creatively, since there is never a single moment in a game where you're in a circular, empty, arena and the fighter and the wizard know the match is going to happen before-hand. 90% of the time there's going to be random encounters, or things that happen which obfuscates your objective or changes your mission.

Ontop of all this, there's plenty of creatures that can be used which exploit spellcasters weaknesses, such as creatures with immunities, creatures with spell resistance, or creatures that are invisible or have a high concealment.

I mean, look at this mean mother fucker right here. Look at him. He is one of the least used creatures in 3rd, and fucks spellcasters right in their asshole. What does he do? Every single time a spell is used on a devourer, as long as he has essence trapped within him, the spell has an effect on the trapped essence instead of the creature itself, meaning he's virtually immune to any direct spell until he runs out of essence. So what if he runs out of essence? He still has 21 spell resistance, so even if spellcasters do drain his essence enough, they still have to get by that.

That's it right? Ohhhh no, he has energy drain with a 19 Fortitude check, has 10 foot reach, and a +11 to will saves, ontop of the fact that he's undead, and also has spell like abilities.

He could murder-rape a fucking 30th level epic wizard.

I mean, 3rd edition has its problems with spellcasters, but jesus, get a grip you fucking wand jockies.

>>47490407

Casters don't need to Polymorph themselves. They can Polymorph anything they like.

You really think those feats are better than Polymorph?

>>47490346
>Explain to me what your fighter will do when the wizard simply summons/gates a bunch of shit from the lower planes to tear the fighter apart.

For summoning, the wizard requires 1 full round to cast it. The wizard better hope to god he's out of bow reach. Secondly it requires 1 round PER LEVEL.

I hope your caster is casting that shit at the top of a fucking tower.

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>>47485104
They shouldn't be, not necessarily.

High Level Fighters should be chopping mountains in half and wrestling bulls the size of cities. Stuff straight outta myth and legend.

>>47485727
Because he's simply just that strong/has a sword made from the stars themselves/has a burning soul that cannot be bent by even the blackest magics/shattering the wizard's power source/invoking the power of any deity you'd care to name/carries equipment that dampens magical effects/that's not how magic works under any reasonable system holy shit/survives longer than the wizard can cast spells/is a demigod/just punches you in the face

>>47486727
this T B H

>>47490346
ALSO
>involves the fighter having an array of items, magical or other-wise

Smoke sticks aren't magical. They function the same as a smoke grenade, just using the technology of the realm. Thunderstones aren't magical either, since they can be used inside an antimagical shell.

The fighter relies on his equipment, just like the wizard relies on his spells. What is your point exactly?

>>47490407

> Robilar's gambit

Why would they be trying to hit you in combat?

> karmic/decisive strike

Why would you be close enough to hit them?

> Shock trooper

If you can charge a Wizard he's done something wrong.

Glitterdust is a hard-counter to Fighters. 2nd Level Spell.

The later on a Wizard can Planar Bind things that make Fighters wet their pants.

>>47490483

> I hope your caster is casting that shit at the top of a fucking tower.

Or, you know, just prepared/crafted a Contingent Spell. Something with no save.

>>47490438
Kinda, yeah. A hydra gets a fair few attacks, I'll give you that, but the aforementioned combo I said means that for every time he's attacked, the fighter hits the thing back twice for double damage. Polymorph is seriously good, don't get me wrong, but a simple wizard using polymorph isn't outfighting a decent fighter/barbarian/warblade.
>>47490506
Nice try anon, but I'm not on about a meaningless arena fight. That said though, planar binding is overrated. You get quantity, but not quality, not to mention having to pay for their services.
>>47490483
Just 1 round anon. Still long enough to get him shot to shit though.

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I Planar Bind a Galeb Duhr. Shit CHA, no friends, easy Bind.

Make it three. For fun.

They can cast CL20 Animated Objects (Rocks) at will.

That's sixty Small Animated Objects a turn, or three Gargantuan Objects a turn.

Oh and you can't tell the Galeb Duhrs from rocks without a huge Spot check.

148HP, +15 Attack Bonus, +31 Grapple. Popping up once a round.

I can't think of a fighter build that can really do much about that. Especially when the Galeb Duhrs are using Tremorsense and casting from 300ft away.

>>47490521
You mean Contingency, which can only be active one at a time and can only effect your person, and can't be higher than 1/3rd your caster level?

You mean that contingency spell?

>>47490539
>Just 1 round anon.

If he's attacked at all during that round, he has a chance of losing the spell.

>>47490437
The problem - With 3.pf, anyways - Is that spellcasters have a way around all that.

Spellcasters are the only classes with built-in ways to get around Energy Drain, a Wish or a high-level summoning spellcan be used to fix that.

If casting spells on him doesn't work, the Wizard just casts a low-level Summon Monster spell and, bam, there's 3-5 smaller monsters between him and the devourer and he can leave to catch his breath. Plus, conjuration and abjuration get around that by not targeting him with spells - If you want to be a shitty spellcaster, you can just use a Fireball and include him in the area of effect, and he's not the target and doesn't absorb it. If you're smart, you just Forcecage him, or Wall of Iron, or even Create Pit can force him into a situation where he can no longer attack you. Or just fucking fly away.

+11 will? That's cute, by level 10 I can be forcing DC 30 will saves with the right gear and a decent build.

While he's a tough opponent, consider fighting this guy as a fighter or other martial class. In order to deal damage, you *have* to get into melee with him - Which means you're now in range of his most dangerous attacks. A DC 19 fortitude save is pretty easy to overcome by that point for a good martial, as you can be hitting +12-+20 pretty easily, but having to dig through their hit points, their poisons, and their spell-like-abilities means it's an uphill battle from the start. And there's no Fighter class that gets as a class ability to summon 3-5 buddies every round to help fuck him up.

If you'll note, this isn't nearly as much of a problem in even other D&D systems. It's a problem with Pathfinder in specific because of the sheer amount of bullshit a good 'caster can do.

>>47485814
>>47486063
Don't forget
>Teleports behind u

>>47490126
I feel it's pretty split between them and rogues with alignments in the bottom right of the chart.

>>47490609
Yeah, hence me mentioning enough time for him to get shot. It's not 1 round per level is all.

>>47490539

> Using Polymorph to turn into a close combat beater

Wut. Turn into something with ridiculous Ex. Attacks and amazing abilities.

Like a Cloaker. Flying moan will fuck you up son.

> a simple wizard using polymorph isn't outfighting a decent fighter/barbarian/warblade.

If they aren't idiots they are.

And again, you cast Polymorph on something else. Like your Familiar.

> Nice try anon, but I'm not on about a meaningless arena fight.

That's about the only time Fighters would have an advantage.

> That said though, planar binding is overrated, you have to pay

No you don't. You don't have to pay. That's Planar Ally.

>>47490597

Craft Contingent Spell.

Make any spell Contingent for a fee.

It's so broken.

>>47490596
You can only bind up to 3 elementals or outsiders up to 12 HD.

Your shit doesn't work.

>>47490615
Ah, the good ol' "The DM should fix shitty rules" defense. Check another space off the board, boys.

Thanks for refuting that fuckface so totally.

>>47490700

You can bind three PER CAST.

You can CONTROL as many as you want.

Galeb Duhrs have 8HD. You can control dozens if you wanted.

Love to know how a Lvl 11 Fighter deals with a single Galeb Duhr desu.

>>47490674
>No you don't. You don't have to pay.
You do if you actually want to get them to do anything. And polymorphing your familiar is a sure fire way to lose a ton of xp when it gets killed because it has half your d4 hp. And cloakers? A DC 15 mind-affecting fort/will save isn't gonna fuck up anything worth fucking up. If you're trying to give an example of something with 'ridiculous ex attacks and amazing abilities' you're not doing a good job.

>>47490615
Wish, limited wish, and miracle can all be used to destroy a Devourer, so long as you've used any of those to banish the essence first.

If you haven't, then it does nothing.

>the Wizard just casts a low-level Summon Monster spell and, bam, there's 3-5 smaller monsters between him and the devourer and he can leave to catch his breath

Again, depending on the distance, as well as depending on what spell-like abilities the devourer uses. Devourer's can use Confusion, control undead, ghoul touch, lesser planar ally, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, suggestion, and true seeing, all cast as if by an 18th level caster, and the saves are all Charisma-based.

They also have combat casting and blind fight, but I doubt a spellcaster is going to want to be anywhere near a Devourer.

>by level 10 I can be forcing DC 30 will saves with the right gear and a decent build

It's essence absorbs every single charm or compulsion spell thrown at it. The only way is going to be to cast banishment on the essence first, and then you just need to get past its spell resistance, which for a level 10 wizard, isn't too easy, but it's definitely doable, and if the Devourer rolls a 20 on any of its will saves, it doesn't matter what the DC check is.

>>47490197
Hey, you know what feat doesnt exist?
>eschew weapon
One of the things required for a wizard to function can be nought off with a fucking feat and you think that's not only a requirement, you think it's balanced!
No matter how much you do to a wizard, he can always cast a spell of some kind, usually in a way to help him out of whatever is restricting his other spells.

>>47490188
Punches don't do 1d3. Not in 5e.

>>47490407
>Wizzy spends a round to summon shit
>Martial spends a couple rounds playing pattycake with it until it's dead. It's low CR so it's no problem
>Wizzy spends those rounds raining fire or urine or whatever he feels like upon the preoccupied fighter's head.

>>47490500
The wizzy is guarenteed his spells. Equipment is not.

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I Planar Bind a Formian Myrmarch.

I give him some INIT boosting objects to increase his +8 bonus.

He readies his action, standing beside me to protect me, to use his AT WILL GREATER TELEPORT whenever I'm hit, or whenever an enemy closes to within melee range.

If anyone does so, he uses his spell Like ability to teleport me away. He can also use his Charm Monster at will.

He's also a melee monster @ CL 10.

>>47490788
>One of the things required for a wizard to function can be nought off with a fucking feat and you think that's not only a requirement, you think it's balanced!
>No matter how much you do to a wizard, he can always cast a spell of some kind, usually in a way to help him out of whatever is restricting his other spells.

Unless they're immune *oh*
Or they have concealment *oh*
Or after spotting them and targeting them they have spell resistance *oh*
Or after their spell resistance they pass their ability save *oh*

And THEN your spell lands.....Well, as long as none of your verbal or somatic omponents are restricted....Meanwhile the Barbarian has you in a chokehold and thus enacts drowning rules on your Wizard who's gasping for air until he's choked the fuck out.

Yea, so broken.

>>47487686
What have you been playing where anyone has 10 hp at high levels?

>>47490770
All that shit sure does sound hard for a wizzy. Sounds downright impossible for a martial. Cha saves? Id love to, but all my points had to go into Str, Dex, and Con. I couldnt put them into a single ability and then minor in Cha for the ladies.

>>47490788
>The wizzy is guarenteed his spells. Equipment is not.

No he's not, a fucking Rogue could easily just come in and steal his spellbook.

Now you have a wizard who's nothing more than an old man kindly asking for his book back, unless he's a spontaneous caster, which is why bards and sorcerers are forever more useful.

Even if you steal a fighters gear, he can wrestle you and bare-knuckle brawl you.

>>47490788
>Wizzy spends a round to summon shit
>Martial spends a couple rounds playing pattycake with it until it's dead. It's low CR so it's no problem
>Wizzy spends those rounds raining fire or urine or whatever he feels like upon the preoccupied fighter's head.
Not quite. More like 'wizard starts casting summon monster, fighter full attacks him with a +1 (+7 strength mod) longbow and he loses the spell.
>The wizzy is guarenteed his spells. Equipment is not.
True, why assume the DM lets you have some cheap alchemical items? You assume it because it's the default.
>>47490841
Look at what I was responding to. Guy said that if we were going for realism wizards shouldn't get hp increases past level 1, another guy responded saying that it doesn't matter and I responded saying that was as wrong as you can get.

>>47485104
Because it's a wimpy weak nerd's power fantasy.

>>47490852
>Sounds downright impossible for a martial.

The Martial can out-run the devourer while constantly using ranged attacks on it.

The creature isn't meant to be attacked 1v1, it's meant to go up against a party, and is a good way of keeping spellcasters in check if they start dominating encounters and makes the players a little more humble about what they can and can't do.

>>47490737

> You do if you actually want to get them to do anything.

No you don't. You just demand it, torturing them until their abilities get so low they fail their checks. And then they are yours for an abitrary length of time and they must obey.

> And polymorphing your familiar is a sure fire way to lose a ton of xp when it gets killed because it has half your d4 hp.

In a evasive amazing body. And that's if the Wizard doesn't have friends.

> And cloakers? A DC 15 mind-affecting fort/will save isn't gonna fuck up anything worth fucking up.

Yes, it will. If your argument is essential "lol Cloakers", you've never faced them.

How about a roper, 6 ranged touch attacks, Fort for 2d8 Strength Damage, 50ft range. Natural armor +14.

Darktentacles have 12 15ft slams.

There are so many amazing forms.

>>47488896
This guy gets it

>>47486137
Raistlin Majere is my answer to that.

>>47490835

All those things apply to every single fucking class.

Nothing about a Fighter or Martial makes the more adept at any of those things.

>>47490835
You keep using these hypotheticals where a martial is ALREADY shoving his cock down your throat. So you mean to say someone got the jump on you and you can't do much about it? Weird how the only way to not be a walking god is for someone to get the jump on you. Look, Skeletor. Achilles could be killed by being hit in the ankle. That one spot. You are arguing that wizzy has an achilles tendon and that makes him balanced against martials, who are made up of 80% achilles tendon. IF they carefully select their feats.

I mean fucking look at your list and tell me which of those a fuckin martial wouldnt have to deal with? You realize an AC is literally a save attempt every round where it is assumed they rolled a 10 on their save?

File: S3E04.237_The_Wizard_Laughing_Evilly_with_Lightning_Behind.png (952KB, 842x473px) Image search: [Google]

952KB, 842x473px

>>47490835

> Hey guys! Controllers don't exist! Magic needs to be targeted, there are no area denial spells! SR is on every spell! Everything has saves!

Good luck making your balance checks on Grease moron.

>>47490925
>apply to every single fucking class

Yes, but other classes are much better at all those things. Martials are better at landing hits and passing spot checks, ontop of the blind-fighting ability which allows them to re-roll their attacks if they miss.

When it comes to immunities, the most a creature will have is either taking half damage from a weapon type, or having damage reduction or regeneration, the attacks still DO something. Even DR/10 can be completely avoided by a weapon that merely has "good" applied to it, or is just a +1. Spells have no such benefits and are completely ruled out in most cases.

>>47490899
>In a evasive amazing body. And that's if the Wizard doesn't have friends.
Speaking from experience, doesn't matter how evasive you are if you die to a stiff breeze. Everyone gets hit eventually.
>No you don't. You just demand it, torturing them until their abilities get so low they fail their checks. And then they are yours for an abitrary length of time and they must obey.
So you keep spamming it on the off chance you don't roll a 1 on a cha check, and your DM kicks you from the game if he doesn't allow evil characters. Nice job.
Now ropers and darktentacles are getting there, except anything with a good nat attack series is gonna rip your still squishy familiar to pieces thanks to it grappling them within full attack range. Your familiar also has your BAB, meaning its grapple is -5 worse than the roper in the same form.

>>47485662
Magic isn't real though. There aren't any real rules for what magic can do and what magic should cost because the rules are whatever you decide they should be. Maybe in my setting wizards can't bend reality and conjure elements, all they can do is shoot nacho cheese out of their armpits. There is literally no hard and fast reason why wizards should be stronger.

>>47490999

> Yes, but other classes are much better at all those things

No, casters are better at all those things because they have SPELLS.

> Martials are better at landing hits and passing spot checks

No, Druids and Clerics are. Because Wisdom. Because spells. Because Scent.

> ontop of the blind-fighting ability which allows them to re-roll their attacks if they miss.

You're going to buy fucking Blind-Fight!?

You re-roll misses if you chose the correct space. You can't hit things in total cover.

> the attacks still DO something.

50% of the time, with a magic weapon on an Incorporeal Creature. Which Wizards can summon/bind/create.

> Spells have no such benefits and are completely ruled out in most cases.

Wut.

There are spells that have no SR, no save. Always work.

Most of the controlling spells in fact. Things that make a Fighter basically useless unless he can run through stone or see through hailstones.

>>47490941
>You keep using these hypotheticals where a martial is ALREADY shoving his cock down your throat.

Because the really dangerous or "broken" spells that a lot of people are throwing around either require lots of prep time, and if they aren't prepped, they take enough time to cast for the Fighter to do something.

That's what he does.

He fights. If he's going to go up against a spellcaster, he's going to rush in and get as close as possible and beat the shit out of him and his 1d4 HD. If the spellcaster botches even a SINGLE round, he's dead, like-wise, if the fighter botches a single round, he *might* die, depending on the spells the wizard has at his disposal, and don't give me that bullshit of "a wizard is always ready," was Gandalf ready when that Balrog came out of nowhere and he used what spells he had to defend himself and the party? No.

This has nothing to do with people getting the jump. The Fighter is almost ALWAYS going to win initiative, and what's he going to do? He's going to Charge the Wizard, and if he's on horse-back, he's going to be even more lethal.

This is a hypothetical, because the game is not something programmed and ruled as-is, there's rules that can be interpreted differently, and not every encounter is going to be predicted.

Almost all of the time, the Fighter is going to be able to act first in any given scenario unless the Wizard ambushes him, which is going to be the most likely strategy, assuming he knows he's coming, but then again, the Wizard might fail his checks and the Fighter could hear him, or see him.

>>47490993
>grease

Lol, are you a fucking retard? A Barbarian can still move 20 feet in a round, and if he drops a smokestick at the end of his movement, he gains concealment, blocking him from being targeted, so he just does that until he reaches the Wizard.

Grease, lol, what a fucking joke and waste of a spell slot.

>>47491015

> Everyone gets hit eventually.

Except Fighters apparently, that never roll badly against save or sucks.

> So you keep spamming it on the off chance you don't roll a 1 on a cha check

Figures you can't read spell descriptions.

You spam the spell till something fails and is bound.

THEN you keep them for days, casting debilitating spells on them till they are putty in your hands. Or just Charm/Dominate. Or Geas.

> your DM kicks you from the game if he doesn't allow evil characters. Nice job.

LOL?

You can still just convince a fucking Galeb Duhr to obey you. It has like a CHA of 8 or some shit. Probably will agree if you leave it alone after a week.

> your still squishy familiar

Or hire a merc. Or buy an warbeast. Or have a friend. Or literally anything else.

Christ.

> Your familiar also has your BAB, meaning its grapple is -5 worse than the roper in the same form.

Buy a warbeast for pittance, or a Figurine of Wonderous Power. A bajillion types of options.

Still want to know how your Lvl 11 Fighter fights a Galeb Duhr though. Or a Formian Myrmarch. Or a swarm of Breathdrinkers.