/exg/ - Exalted general: shit game edition

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I really wanted 3e to be good, but it was merely better than 2.5e.

Exalted's themes of high flying wuxia magic and its setting are both much better off with a more rules lite system.

I don't get the hate for 3e, same way I dn't get the hate for Mage 2e in /cofd/

Yes the devs are dicks, but that doesn't stop you playing the game

In 3rd ed can NPCs stunt or are they just always behind the players by 2 dice/ 1 defense?

https://swallowsofthesouth.com/2016/05/23/swallows-of-the-south-interview-with-ex3-developers/
Podcast interview with the liars, Holden and Morke.

>>47435841
I tend to not give them stunts. Though I always feel that resting DV and 2 dice behind no matter what. I know the point is to punish the actions of the players, not to challenge them directly, but this always grates on me.

>>47435825

I think most hate for 3E slopped over from hate for the devs. Then there's a bit that got splashed around when the hype train pulled into the station and just turned out to be a normal train after all.

>>47435841

On the plus side, their dicepools tend to be higher than PCs for decisives, since quick characters use the same values for withering/decisive.

>>47435137
>Doomguy as a Dawn
Nah he's clearly an Achemical that won't stay dead, how else would you explain all of his weapons?

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So, for shits and giggles, I was drawing up a Survival-supernal Agata-riding Twilight sorcerer. Of course, if you are going to be riding a hyper-melee competent Familiar around, you want to roll it into combat using Seasoned Beast Rider's approach.

That being said, I don't really know what to do once the Familiar begins making its own attacks. I don't really want to invest in Archery charms, because I'm already spread pretty thin as it is, and sorcery isn't really the answer to every situation.

Are there any good actions I could be taking to charge initiative? Flight of the Brilliant Raptor is a pretty good ranged tool, but I'd need some way of coming back from base initiative to really use it.

>>47436210
>how else would you explain all of his weapons?
Elsewhere storage is a normal Solar charm.

>>47435825
The dev hate is sometimes based on them making bad design decisions, not just lying or being, what, 2 years late on the delivery or whatever.

And quite a lot of the 3e hate is criticism of the actual game itself.

>>47436020
Holden sounds like such an obnoxious, stupid, american stoner, I wasn't expecting that.

>>47436382
War

Use command actions to order around your swarm of agatae whilst you ride around on your own charm-boosted one.

>>47436681
Woops, that one is Morke, my bad.

>>47436488
>2 years late on the delivery or whatever.

Due to making many contradictory promises, assertions, suggestions, and implicit statements about actual, expected and/or probable release date, their delivery exists in a quantum superposition of simultaneously being 1,2,3,4 years late and on time.

>>47435825
The devs are intimately involved in 3e in a way that devs normally aren't with other games, AFAIK.

I couldn't tell you the name of a single dev for any of the recent editions of D&D, nor the errata writers, nor various other representatives. (I tried looking one up just now for an example and found that 4e corebook is credited to "Wizards RPG Team" on Amazon, no names at all.)

With Exalted, on the other hand, it feels like half the line has been done by about five or so people: Holden, Morke, Minton, Borgstrom, Vance. There's probably more, but it's hard to see past them being BIG NAMES with BIG EGOS that insert themselves into everything and identify with their work to the extent that Morke's Twitter starts with "developer for EXALTED" (caps in original) and his pinned tweet is requests for Patreon donations, with his Patreon page starting with... yeah, Exalted again.

Sometimes this is a good thing, when you can ask the devs questions and they run preview events and they engage with the community and they explain intent and provide bonus material that was cut from the corebook for space reasons.
But the flipside of that is when the devs fuck up, it reflects on the game.

>>47436775
Maybe that's just the difference between a niche game and DnD. A better comparison would be something like Chuubo or Pugmire , which also also extremely linked to the dev.

>>47436775
>There's probably more

S.L. Sheppard, but he didn't do mechanics, just fluff.

I have a question on how battlegroups work. When they make withering attacks and crash someone, is "spillover" initiative damage supposed to become health damage on the same attack? Because both ways of doing it seem kinda messed up.

If spillover disappears, battlegroups seem weirdly weak. In particular, it seems an Accuracy focused glass cannon (or even glass popgun!) could solo one, disregarding other stats for a moment: Deadeye Dave thwacks the battlegroup for init and magnitude damage, battlegroup crashes Dave's init, Dave thwacks battlegroup for init and magnitude damage, battlegroup crashes Dave's init, repeat as only one side takes any damage. (This is how I ran it in a recent game. It felt unsatisfactory.)

If their spillover withering converts to health damage, OTOH, the fight seems like it would get one-sided fast since you only get 1pt initiative from hitting a battlegroup.

>>47436869

Remember that crashing isn't just stopping at 0; if the BG sends you to -5 init with one attack, you aren't going to be able to recover that before their next swing, this time for real HLs.

>>47436934
Addendum: I mean you could, but if you did, that means you swung 5 times, which almost certainly means you've fucked up the BG pretty good anyway.

>>47436951
This.

A thing to keep in mind though is that since battle groups take magnitude damage from withering attacks, a Crashed opponent is still capable of directly hurting them back, unlike with a single worthy opponent.

Does anyone have a good gif or video to portray the withering/decisive ebb and flow combat system?

>>47437019
Basically any fight from Hero / Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon/etc.

>>47437035
Maybe something a bit less wuxia with the floating a jumps, that would distract them from the actual withering part.

>>47437079
The final boss battle of MGS4?

>>47437019
Any Jackie Chan fight vs. a gang.

>>47437088
That's pretty good.

>>47436382

Max out your willpower, and Burning Raptor will be doing decent damage even off base. Get a couple of willpower-regaining charms, one of the ritual merits that exempts your control spells wp cost, and spam that - or butterflies for AoE.

>>47436869
I've personally found battlegroups to be real easy to kill for our Dawn anyway. They don't get onslaught bonuses, so they can't wear down Defense. Even with the size bonuses to their attack pools, they can't get through a combat focused character's Defense most of the time especially with Excellency boosts. One of my early fights was against a size 3 battlegroup of mortal troops with a commander to rally them and boost their pools. A good Withering attack dropped the leader's Init below the battlegroup's, a second one knocked them down a Size, and they failed the rout check and never had a chance to rally because this was all before their turn.

Battlegroups of 1st Circle Demons have been basically the only thing that's been a serious threat, and even then, they drain motes on Excellency'd Parry rather than cutting through to HL. This *might* be working as intended. It's very cinematic. But it's a bit awkward for me.

>>47437217
>killing something is easy for a Dawn
Big surprise. They're a Dawn.

>>47437271
I did say it might be working as intended. But it's a bit odd to me that 10 blood apes are substantially easier to kill than 1 blood ape.

>>47437314
When the character has been fighting groups of blood apes alone, a single blood ape is a trivial opponent, and trivial opponents die when crashed IIRC.

>>47437326
Hrrrrm. Point. Awkward point. Now I can't have, for example, an evil sorcerer dramatically flanked by two blood ape bodyguards; he needs a whole army of them. Which is probably much more sensible for anyone going up against a Solar circle, but means all the big fights have to be outdoors.

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>>47437357
>all the big fights have to be outdoors.
Hell no. Have them go up against a seemingly endless horde of demons in tight quarters.

The sorcerer could also summon Second or Third Circle demons as lone bodyguards if he's important/powerful enough. If you want them to be identical, just make up a 2CD that's one demon in two bodies, or something.

>>47437357
It's a trivial opponent for the dawn caste. Not for the rest of the circle.
Or they could be special, boosted blood apes.
Or you could admit to the group that "Shit i messed up"

>>47437326
>>47437357

That's not really how it works.

It's true that certain foes can be declared trivial opponents based purely on power disparity, but it's more sensitive to context. It's not like once you beat a Brides of Ahlat battlegroup, then therefore all future heroic mortals are declared trivial opponents permanently.

If 2 bodyguard blood apes as individuals makes for a better fight, do that. If they aren't but punk shit, then they're trivial.

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>>47437393
>heroic mortals
Bad analogy, heroic mortals are never trivial, because they are heroic and therefore important.

>>47437417
So blood apes can be trivial, but mortals can't?

>>47437427
Heroic mortals != mortals in general.

>>47437387
>>>47437357 (You)
>>all the big fights have to be outdoors.
>Hell no. Have them go up against a seemingly endless horde of demons in tight quarters.
I definitely like this idea. Lots of potential for good stunts and dramatic action. Thank you.
>>47437389
>>>47437357 (You)
>Or you could admit to the group that "Shit i messed up"
Haven't messed up yet. They beat the demons fair and square. Just planning ahead.

If I need bodyguards for someone who shouldn't have access to Celestial sorcery I think I'll write up some 3rd Ed stats for Tomescu. They seem like the kind of demons that would have some individuals that are particularly skilled combatants. Heroic demons, as it were.

>>47437433
Yeah but if the Dawn can casually destroy blood apes then I'd assume he can casually destroy a mortal, heroic or not. So why can't they be trivial?

>>47437445
Because heroic = important, given "screen time" exposition, etc.
Heroicness makes you special. Sure, your Dawn will kill the guy in a turn or two, but they won't go down without at least trying to put up a fight, saying some famous last words or whatever.

Trivial opponents you just slash and forget.

>>47437445
Think 'Narrative Weight' rather than sheer competence.

Like Ned Stark being less of a swordsman than the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. The Kingsguard were better swordsmen, but their deaths were hardly mentioned.

>>47438247
Dayne was still significant, especially the way depicted in the show.

>>47436020
It's kind of fun to listen to this and randomly chime in with angry counter-questions to what they say based on the common complaints.

>>47438396
Are you talking to your screen? Post those replies here instead of being a crazy person.

>>47438422
Fine.

Holden/Morke talk about how realism in the ways societies work is important to the setting, but then the greatest naval power in the world uses triremes.

They talk about how they never looked at other systems during design, which I guess explains why they still have fucking linear chargen/quadratic advancement.

Morke doesn't understand what balance is. He says, "each ability is supposed to feel different," and explains to an extent how, which is great. Then he says "they were never balanced against each other" because "I never said this ability's charmset needs so much damage per round." That isn't necessary for balance. Starcraft is an exquisitely balanced game, but the races all play very differently from one another and no two units are really fungible at all, even ones performing similar roles (e.g. zerglings versus zealots). In general, they seem to confuse "balanced" for "interchangeable."

I feel like there was another thing I was annoyed about but can't remember what it was.

>>47438559
Thanks, that's much more interesting stuff to discuss.
Also I like this interview for at least giving an insight into their intentions, even if we have solid evidence of failure to accomplish some of them.

>>47438559
>I feel like there was another thing I was annoyed about but can't remember what it was.
Oh, now I remember. They talked about how they wanted to make crunchy, meaningful subsystems for players to interact with, which had relevant and thematically fitting texture which helped produce appropriate and interesting stories, for basically every ability. So you have the Lore subsystem, you have the social subsystem, etc.

But Bureaucracy still doesn't do anything. Honestly, the way they talked about it confused me and made me think maybe they added it back in between the leak and the final pdf, which they obviously didn't.

>>47438611
Yeah, that one really stuck out to me, like I get they added a lot of functional subsystems for things, but how can they legitimately believe the Projects system was good enough to release?
Exalted, more than most RPGs, really needs a system to tie in with Bureaucracy to easily represent the state and actions taken by an organisation or nation.

>>47438559
I never really cared about "balance" between abilities and charmsets. They each have invaluable pros and cons beyond just DPS or defensibility, like not needing weapons, or being (un)able to use the weapons your character has available, being discreet, having range, tactical options, etc.

Now, actually broken systems are a different matter.

But it's painfully clear that they have no idea what they're talking about either way.

>>47438611
>>47438654

I'm a third person confused by the discussion of Bureaucracy. Unlike you faggots I don't really have a horse in the race to hate them, but I was really confused by that part because insofar as I can tell there aren't really any systems for bureaucracy.

>>47438687
>They each have invaluable pros and cons beyond just DPS or defensibility, like not needing weapons, or being (un)able to use the weapons your character has available, being discreet, having range, tactical options, etc.
This is balance, anon. All of the things you mention are something that could and should make the various Abilities balanced.

>>47438715
That's them being varied and distinct abilities, it's a part of well-balanced and fun things, but it doesn't require them be balanced.

>>47438715
You cannot balance them, as they are invaluable and uncomparable, as well as stemming from the qualities of real life weapons.

If you bring a knife to a spear fight (all combatants being equal), you expect to be stabbed without ever getting in range of your opponent, that's common sense. Do you then say spears are imbalanced? Of course not.

>>47438773
>You cannot balance them, as they are invaluable and uncomparable
Hello, Morke.

When you reach the level where you say, "hmm, these two advantages can't be cleanly compared. Both are sometimes relevant and sometimes irrelevant, but you can't quantify how often that will be, and it really could go either way, depending," then guess what? You have two balanced options.

>>47439355
Not knowing how likely each is gonna be useful or a hindrance, is not the same as them being equally useful. When they're roughly equal in use, that's balance. When people are balancing apples and oranges mechanics, they can still test the relative strength of them in practice and tweak it while still retaining distinct pros and cons to both, and situations where each one is useful.

>>47439400
>Not knowing how likely each is gonna be useful or a hindrance, is not the same as them being equally useful. When they're roughly equal in use, that's balance.
Oh, hmm. I was just sort of assuming we were talking about either advantages that literally can't be compared (can be hidden on one's person versus can't but X), or advantages that were comparable in severity.

Assuming I understand you correctly, I agree; if A and B come up maybe similar amounts of the time but when A comes up it's a huge advantage and when B comes up it's marginal, that's not balanced.

>>47439542
Oh yeah, I understand, if they were definitely similar in usefulness but for different situations, that would totally count.

>>47438559
It's fine to design based on how a charmset feels in a vacuum, focusing on how it feels to people dedicated to that ability, and how good it is at allowing them to pull off thematic feats suited to it.
But for skills which actually interact with each other in this game, you need them to be at least roughly balanced. Craft is mostly its own thing, so you only tweak that based on expected output quality and rate. Awareness needs to be balanced against Stealth, and Larceny needs to be balanced against Investigation, Sail has to be balanced with itself plus expected output like Craft.
The combat abilities are the most important, because it would seriously ruin someone playing a powerful archer, if they discover they're useless and close range fighters are gonna charge and kill them right away.
You need to retain the feel of Brawl, while making it a reasonable opponent to Melee. They can be different in kind and have a lot of situational effects which are hard to compare, but they have to at least be within the same power level or it'll sour player's choices for their character concepts.

>>47438773

Balance can be done at a more abstract level than just calculating damage-per-round. Obviously, balancing Bureaucracy and Melee would never work that way.

What you want to balance, is the cost-benefit for investing in an ability. The charms need to represent a roughly approximate level of in-setting power, at a given point in the tree.

Like, putting, for instance, Eye of the Unconquered Sun, as an E1 zero-prereqs charm would be unbalanced. Not because it had more DPR than Iron Whirlwind, but because it's a really powerful effect, for a really minimal buy in.

A balanced system should mean that someone who's bought heavily in Melee, and someone who's bought heavily into Socialize should both feel like their choices were valid, and have useful and interesting ways of interacting with the system.

I think Ex3 mostly succeeds with this, with some outliers. Bureaucracy, as noted, doesn't have a subsystem to interact with, and Sorcery is a powerful effect with such a low buy-in that the only reason you wouldn't take it is thematics. There's also Sail, but it's explicitly called out in the text as a niche ability, so at least it has warnings. I also think Investigation is boring (it basically caps out at Judge's Ear/Ten Magistrate Eyes), and the bridge keyword makes Integrity too much of an auto-buy sometimes.

question:taumaturgy: its in oldmcdonald, its got a few in core, scroll of the monk, and celestial directions:the wyld

...anywhere else?

>>47435137
unless you want to homebrew literally everything into being functional before you play the fluff needs crunch

>>47439869

There's a few in the three Glories books, IIRC.

>>47439930
thanks

>>47435099

>That pic

Man, Lunars are nuts.

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>>47440046

>Man, Lunars are nuts.

You could say they're "lunatics."

>>47440086
You smug anime girls and your damn infernal puns.

>>47435841
>In 3rd ed can NPCs stunt or are they just always behind the players by 2 dice/ 1 defense?
I generally give sufficiently badass NPCs a 1-point stunt for every action, or at least every action that falls within their area of expertise. No higher rated stunts for NPCs, though.

>>47440115
I bet it's all that moonspeak!

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>>47440086
>>47440115
>>47440250

>Lunars are basically anime characters

They just want senpai to notice them.

>>47440250
Good caul, I can tell.

>>47440270
They're so obsessed with Solars, they turn into small creatures so you can tote 'em around.
I think it's Solars that really want sunpai to notice them.

>>47440321
To be fair, folk play them wyldly differently, and the bond is optional now.

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>>47440390
>To be fair, folk play them wyldly differently, and the bond is optional now.

>Unironically playing a Lunar/Solar without a bond

But... Why? The Lunar/Solar relationship is extremely useful (not to mention fun to RP) and shores up whatever weaknesses your character has.

>>47440456
I don't play that shit, I'm only in this for the puns.
Mnemon with Sorcery is just for your magical Realm.

>>47440456
Because, anon, the bond being useful and sometimes fun to RP does not mean it fits every character concept.

>>47440456
>But... Why? The Lunar/Solar relationship is extremely useful (not to mention fun to RP) and shores up whatever weaknesses your character has.
You can have a Solar with a Lunar wife without the Lunar Bond, just as you can have a Solar with a Dragon-Blooded or mortal wife without a Dragon-Blooded or Mortal Bond.

The Lunar Bond has a lot of inextricable baggage attached to it; unconditional love is a breeding ground for abuse, callousness, and cruelty. It historically has been treated very sketchily by the line. The moral dilemmas it suggests generally slide off players like water off a baby duck's back.

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>>47440557

You're probably right, I guess I was getting a little close-minded with assuming *every* character should fit into a certain concept.

>>47440610
Yeah, Solar players could have a Lunar bond in their backstory, or the GM could introduce it with at least a little consent from the player.
But for Lunar players, it really has to be their decision, they'd be subservient, obsessed or psychopathic, which fits some concepts, but really limits your options.
They're also probably keeping it for the Lunar book because they haven't decided the specifics yet.

>>47440610

BABY ducks aren't naturally water repellent, their feathers have to come in first and then the oils

>>47441120
Thank you for the correction.

>>47440729
or they could be your buddy.

whos a good lunar? whoos a good lunar? http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20131204.png

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who's a good lunar

>>47441162

Why didn't you do this >>47441178

Your decision to link it is bewildering to me. It actually distracted me from reading the text in the comic.

>>47441198


I am not a good doggy, for in the time efore now, I was in a state of nature. I obeyed such laws as nature mandates, and now my obeisance is loathsome to me: a nightmare inflicted by my body and retained in my memory. Oh memory! You are a palimpest, where I have written good upon evil again and again and again, ah! But how ink fades. For blood cannot be covered by ink. Ink was used in times of ease. When scarcity returns, perhaps blood will follow. No, I am not a good doggy. That can never be. But, in the present, perhaps I can be a just doggy. And in that, there is some solace.

>>47441257
...that only raises /further/ questions!

>>47440729
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbycvPwr1Wg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4GPG4eNNEk

I played a Lunar in a game a while back. Banged a Solar, who was not my bondmate, and I was the senior in the relationship.

(Also banged several other people offscreen and never told the Solar, because that's just the way I roll.)

(Also murdered several of those people after banging them.)

(Actually, I suppose the banging may have been rape in some of those cases.)

(This sort of thing is probably why people overthrew the First Age Solars.)

(Good thing I'm a shapeshifter and nobody can track me down or identify me well enough to even pinpoint me for possible overthrowing.)

>>47441440

>(Good thing I'm a shapeshifter and nobody can track me down or identify me well enough to even pinpoint me for possible overthrowing.)

You don't have problems with the Sidereals, then?

would you let one of your players craft dreamstones or eggs of holding? if so how?

>>47441516
I never did for the duration that game ran, probably because I wasn't murdering or impersonating anyone important enough. I suppose if such problems ever had cropped up, I could have gotten Flickering Star Infusion to steal people's destinies and astrologies along with their shapes.

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If you got to choose, who would you pick to be your Lunar mate, and why would it be Ma-Ha-Suchi?

source for the quote saying liminals and getemians don't get their own splatbooks?

Are there any references in the old books to a photosynthesis ability?

>>47441638
wood adaptation mutants iirc.

>>47441638
http://big-metto.net/RP_Wiki/index.php?title=Exalted/Mutations

the wyld 147

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>>47441600
Current game: haha, I'm the ST.
Most recent game: myself, between Twin-Faced Hero and Starfish Doppelganger Knack.
Planned next game: Ma-Ha-Suchi actually sounds a good bet, since AFAIK everyone older is also even crazier or completely inaccessible. MHS might be the best pick in terms of powerful patron who isn't nuttier than a fruitcake.

>>47441638
Here you go.

>>47441600
>If you got to choose, who would you pick to be your Lunar mate, and why would it be Ma-Ha-Suchi?

Probably a No Moon Lunar with the body of Ahri and personality of Ran.

So, Morke answered some questions on twitter on DBs. Thought so far?

>>47441778
Link?

>>47441820
https://twitter.com/hatewheel/with_replies

weird example:
> Will DBs get special effects from their Immaculate MAs Solars don't have access to? Are they tied to heavy opportunity costs?
> I can't answer b/c there is sometimes a divide between what we want to do & what actually works best for the game.

>>47441820
https://twitter.com/hatewheel
Highlights include:

Something about Mas
>We have high ambitions for the martial arts in WFHW. And moving away from canon styles into all-new territory.

when asked what's up with rthe Immaculate faith
>Tighter focus, clearer emphasis on the sincerity of belief in the scriptures throughout the Realm.

Is Breeding still around/is there something for non-Lookshy Outcastes?
>Breeding is around / we do discuss non-Lookshy Outcastes!

>>47441885
>DB Solar is impossible
Is anyone gonna tell him about that story?

did he really say they weren't ever doing a complete splat book on liminal and getemians?

>>47438559
>Morke doesn't understand what balance is.

What the fuck? His priority is on balance. You yourself say that making each charmset do the same DPR isn't necessary for balance, which is true and is the case in 3e.

The different combat abilities are equally strong, so I have no clue what you're on about

>>47442278
>What the fuck? His priority is on balance. You yourself say that making each charmset do the same DPR isn't necessary for balance, which is true and is the case in 3e.
He explicitly states he is not trying to make these things balanced, then describes what he is trying to do, which is, as you said, balance. i.e., he does not understand what the word balance means.

>>47442242

>wanting to indulge Holden in his fanfiction

As much as I hate Morke cockblocking Holden as much as possible on the retarded Liminals is a good thing.

>>47442318
I think he's responding to a narrow-minded idea of balance that a lot of faggots espouse.

Whining about this is pedantic faggotry on the highest level dude

>>47442728
No, he's responding to his own narrow-minded idea of what balance is. It's pretty clear if you listen to the interview.

So, has anyone homebrewed some of the old Martial Arts back in or made some new ones? I know some people did Sidereal Martial Arts like Violet Bier of Sorrows and Obsidian Shards of Infinity Styles.

>>47435137

Same.

The system would do good with less, not more.

Why they didn't use the one roll resolution of nWoD baffles me.

>>47436869
>Deadeye Dave thwacks the battlegroup for init and magnitude damage, battlegroup crashes Dave's init, Dave thwacks battlegroup for init and magnitude damage, battlegroup crashes Dave's init, repeat as only one side takes any damage.
This is something I used to mess up. You only get 1 initiative for landing a withering attack on a battlegroup. That's it. If they knock you into negative initiative, you won't be recovering in one attack.

>>47442728
>Oh yeah WELL I THINK that YOU are BEING A FAGGOT, duuuuuuuude
Jesus. Get some self-awareness.

>>47442976
I'm not familiar with nWoD. How's that work?

>>47439922
I didn't say "no rules" or "a rules lite system".

I said "a more rules lite system". You can still have crunch, just less of it.

>>47443833
>self-awareness
>on 4chan

>>47443844

The resolution is similar to Exalted, but 8s are successes instead of 7s. Accuracy isn't a thing, just the overall power of a weapon. To hit all you need to do is make a roll of ATT+ABILITY+Weapon - opponent's soak, and the leftover amount of successes is damage.

Modifiers are far more rampant in the system, and can range from to a 1 or a 5 in both directions.

>>47442420
yeah, but if they're gonna exist at all I'd rather see them than the abyssals. we've got two books on them and they're basically luigi anyway. could be a footnote in the solar splat that says "also comes in drizzt/death flavor"

I seriously can't get over the fact that one of the stated reasons there's no Bureaucracy system is "you can't do Hamilton in it".

>>47442420
yeah, but if they're gonna exist at all I'd rather see them get a book than the abyssals. we've got two books on abyssals already from previous editions and the fluff is mostly gonna be copy/paste from there, they're basically luigi anyway. could be a footnote in the solar splat that says "also comes in drizzt/death flavor"

>>47443895
actually now it's att+ability-opponent's Defense, with a number of automatic successes based on the weapon, with opponent's armor subtracting from successes.

So, this just happened

>KS message Rich asking for a refund, no answer
>KS message again, no answer
>mail richt, send a second and third mail, no answer
>this happened over the course of a little over two months
>make a plausible fake email account, send a bullshti message to Rich about wanting to add a ST screen to my pledge
>get answered within minutes

I told him that he could have answered to my other messages, at least with a no, but he was quick enough to answer when the message was about money I wanted to give him.

That I would never back another Exalted project again was pretty much a given, but now I'm seriously considering not buying another WoD product again, classic or Chronicles or whatever, as long as OPP is connected to it.

>>47444091

>No screenshots

Sure, we believe you.

>>47444161
Would they mean something to you? Given how easily I could falsify them? I mean, I could post them, but if you don't want to believe me you don't want to believe me

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>>47444161
>>47444238
>>47444091

But, you know, knock yourself out.

>>47444091
Badass.

Why are there two?

>>47444091
>>47444287
glad he's ignoring your baby bitch ass

Is Truth's ST here? How do you handle Abyssal essence regeneration?

>>47444091

>What is kickstarter ToS saying each kickstarter is a gamble

You didn't reserve a book, you backed a project knowing full well it could fail at any time.

If you think he violated it bad enough, then take him to court. Land of the free

>>47444460
This isn't about crime, this is about assholery.

>>47444487
That makes it even more of your problem and even less of our problem.

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We don't need more proof of the devs being asshats, we know that.

What we do need is constructive criticism on the actual game, and hopefully ways to make it better.

>>47444487

Due to this kickstarter, I decided I'm not going to back any more of OPP's projects until they release shit on time.

Unlike you, I don't feel a burning passion to announce this to the world or make a grand ordeal out of it.

If you are that assblasted about it, do something that would kick OPP in the balls. We're sick of hearing babby tier complaints like this, and doing something outside of the norm would at least be remotely interesting.

So enjoy the money you flushed down the toilet, I hope you don't get a penny back.

>>47444497
I'm not the backer, I'm just a helpful anon trying to explain that "kikestarter is a gamble" is irrelevant to the fact that Rich is jewing hard.

>>47444497
It's the old debate about wether or not reception of a work should be influenced by the reputation of its authors / publishers. Given the people that authored this, and how its publisher is behaving...

Aside from that, next time you'll have a problem with Rich's work, and you'll try taking it to him, maybe you'll be the one not even dignified with a "fuck off" - you should know now there's a precedent. Which is totally fine if you don't plan on having a problem with him! But life, it has a way of surprising you.

Does anybody have a list of all the elsewhere pocket type of charms?

off the top of my head I know solar gets summon steel and summon armor, lunar has pockets and burrow, but need to find others

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>>47444559
Elsewhere no longer existss

>>47444516

You can't make it better. Holden made it perfect already on those long Skype sessions in which he mocked his fanbase with his co-writers. They are not in the habit of giving people bad mechanics, you know? Not even if people ask for them, or think they would be better, or know it from actually trying them at their table.

That aside, mking Ex3 better, uuuuh... You gotta need some clarification about Charm declaration order, because that's sorely missing from the Core. You could go with "attacker activates first, then defender, when it's relevant"

>>47444287
Post about this on the Onyx Path forums. I'm serious. Do it. Yes, you'll get banned immediately and it'll probably be removed, but there will be people who SEE it before it does, and that's the point.

>>47444521

Also, the first thing I tried to do is contact KS about it.
They basically told me "settle it in private or contact him on social media profiles, we don't give a fuck".

Contacting him in private did nothing, and this place is the only public place I can post this shit to without damage control being immediately run, so here we go: this is the largest chunk of the fanbase I can inform of my grievances. If even one people about you will stop shilling for him because of this, I've done enough.

Unless by "kicking OPP in the balls" you don't mean I should actually bomb his apartment or something.

>>47444661
I think you proved Rich was being shitty and ignoring a customer's request, so good job anon.
I just don't give a shit about what you do with that.

>>47444661

>Unless by "kicking OPP in the balls" you don't mean I should actually bomb his apartment or something.

Perish the thought. I more meant like suing them, as if you're in America you can actually take people to court over this now... though its going to be incredibly different to get anything out of it.

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>>47444516
>What we do need is constructive criticism on the actual game, and hopefully ways to make it better.

First of all, bring back the 10-step resolution table and put "Step X" back on charms. Removing it was strictly cosmetic and only obfuscated complexity. You still have to go through the fucking steps and work out in what order they resolve when there are attack boosts, parry boosts, rerolls, soak boosts, counterattacks, and whatever the fuck else is involved in resolving an attack.

Now, if you don't like the 10-step attack resolution? A perfectly respectable position, but you don't get rid of 10-step by NOT FUCKING TELLING US HOW TO DO IT. You get rid of 10-step by NOT FUCKING HAVING COMMON POWERS WHICH NEED THOSE STEPS. Pick one step at a time, and then think really hard "Do I want to keep this step?" Is it really necessary to have charms that modify attack resolution at this particular point in attack resolution?

Then, once you've removed some of the steps, consider parallellizing others. For example, in D&D you can roll your attack and damage together: the first is 1d20+8 and the second is 1d8+4. In Exalted, you can't roll your damage until after you have made a calculation based on your attack, because your damage is indeterminate until then.

>>47444344
Because this one >>47435036 was made first, but they didn't link it in the previous question thread with people waiting on a general. Then a few minutes later our current thread was made and linked. We've been torn apart all day.

>>47444091
brofist

>>47444731

Removing the steps just made me groan. It wasn't like nWoD, where you didn't need that many steps as the system was fairly simple. Exalted is far more complex, and it baffles me why they did it outside of some people going "WTF, 10 step combat resolution? Fuck this game" (Which I've had happen more than a few times), however you barely needed all those steps. Step 4 rarely happened, Step 6 had like... three charms out of all of 2.0e and 2.5e? Counterattacking was its own charms, so had its own steps.

I don't know who they're kidding when they say "Combat resolution is now 4 easy steps!" When in 2.Xe it was attack rolls+charms, defender charms, threshold into raw, subtract soak then roll. Marketing reasons I guess?

>>47444731
>wanting ten step resolution back
most of those steps didnt need to exist. 'Declare what defense youre going to use' is pointless since everyone is either parry all the way or evasion all the way. 'Roll defense' existed ONLY because of the way the first excellency interacted with static values. Having two steps for reroll defense and offense is pointless when the charms in question can just say they reroll between the step where you roll your attack and when the attack is actually resolved.

>>47444573
2.5ed then

>>47444595
You realize basically all we do in these threads is mock the fanbase right?

>>47444866
But we're not allowed to work on the line and put in bad rules we think we want, like flat XP costs.

>>47444819
>wanting ten step resolution back
You'll notice that what I actually said was
>bring back the 10-step resolution *table*
followed by
>remove steps

I *don't* want ten step resolution back. I want a rectification of names: if we have ten step resolution, call it ten step resolution, and if we are to call it something else, it must be something else.
And the resulting step order should be written down in a single place where charms can hook into it by saying "Step 5" rather than shit like "this is activated after attack rolls but before damage rolls".
I am completely onboard with removing stupid steps, as long as one takes care to purge things using those steps.

>>47444906
the differance between step x and after attack roll but before damage roll is superficial. If it's getting your panties in a bunch i think the problem is on your end

>>47444906
>>47444819
What's wrong with 10 steps resolution?

It was at least rigorous and clear, and pretty easy to expose in the "natural language" that Morke so loves and is so bad at using.

>Attacker rolls attack, defender applies defense. Attacker rolls damage, defender applies soak. Modifiers to these rolls/scores are applied in that exact order. "Perfect" effects are considered a modifier of the roll/score they are substituting for for timing purposes.

>>47444964
Okay, that's actually wrong, it should be

>Attacker calculates damage, defender appies soak, defender applies hardness, attacker rolls leftover/minimum damage

I'm a bit rusty about Ex mechanics, damage is rolled before soak in Classical WoD

How big are the big cities in creation? Is there any book that shows the size of city walls or anything about a large first age city like nexus?

>>47444964
Many of the steps were kinda pointless. Declare attack and declare defense didnt really need to be there since each one took half a second. Roll defense doesn't exist anymore because 1st excellency doesnt exist for static shit. Same with reroll defense and reroll offense. Other than that nothing has really changed. I could ctrl+f and replace all instances of after attack roll before damage roll with after step 3 and nothing would be different.

>>47445041
I think i remember reading somewhere that paragon has a million inhabitants. Though if that were true it'd me a massive anomaly. This is pre industrial society, most 'cities' arent going to have five digits and not alot more. Realm staraps and places that have some oustanding advantage might have higher numbers.

>>47445274
didn't an ancient roman census list about 5 million or something ridiculous like that?

>>47444547

No, its not.

An author having the reputation of treating their readers like crap, and having poor processes that result in poor product *is* inextricably bound up in the value proposition of purchasing their product.

Thats different from not liking their book because they're a Mormon/SJW/Jew/DemographicOfChoice.

>>47440610
>The moral dilemmas it suggests generally slide off players like water off a baby duck's back.

Actually, they're not moral dilemmas to everyone. Some solars are mean -- who the fuck cares except in character? Some lunars eat babies. The only way to actually abuse the solar bond mechanically is via social nonsense, and if you're going to use social nonsense on another PC, its already binary (social vs non social = social guy, wins non social guy does whatever he wants).

The sole mechanical drawback of the lunar bond is that IF the lunar and solar are both social guys, it probably means the lunar will win social contests.

But the amount of groups in which these are all true:
1. The solar is abusive to PCs.
2. Its considered okay OOC to roll social charms on PCs.
3. The solar is a social focused PC.
4. The lunar is also a social focused PC.
5. The lunar's player doesn't like what the solar's player has on his plate.

are vanishingly rare.

>>47445274
Well, assuming that the gimmick with Paragon and the Perfect is still the same as it was since 1E, that's not too shocking. A perfect punishment engine is quite the efficient engine for stemming the potential for the sort of lawlessness that can decay a society. Assuming that Paragon is literally free of bribery, graft, corruption, fraud, and other such intrinsic ills of nations can go a long way towards amazingly efficient public works infrastructure. They don't even really have to be particularly innovative, or the best at anything; the sheer novelty of every tax dollar being spent as the law intends without willful embezzlement is enough to offset all sorts of concerns.

Really, the most they have to worry about from a civic perspective is outside merchants and such.

Now, never mind the humanitarian concerns of a nationwide curse that causes you indescribable pain and agonizing death if you break any law whatsoever and fail to confess in short order. There's room for improvement there!

>>47445718
>Actually, they're not moral dilemmas to everyone.
That's what I meant by "slide off players like water off a [...] duck's back."

Having the kind of power over someone that a Lunar bond represents is not going to get players to go, "hmm, let me consider this deeply." They'll just go "nah" or "hell yeah" based on their character. Players don't actually interface with it, which removes the most compelling element.

Otherwise, Solars fuck Lunars, yeah. They can love them with the same deep passion they love anybody else, and vice versa. You don't need to introduce magic.

>>47444573
It does, just not as separate plane of existence.

>>47445274
>This is pre industrial society
Remember that Creation is highly magical. East is freakishly verdant and fertile just because it's suffused with Wood Essence and farmer can get few harvests a year. Especially if they appease local agriculture and weather gods.

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What do the Unshaped want? How much variety is there in their desires?

>>47447090
Mostly to kill all of creation and drag it back into the wyld

>>47447090

They all want to dissolve Creation back into undifferentiated Chaos. They probably have different ideas and means on how to accomplish this.

what exactly were zeniths? I'd always pictured them like paladins but that steps too much on dawn's toes

>>47448772
They're old-testament priests. More fire and brimstone and rise to remove your shackles of slavery priests than "jesus loves you so don't fuck men okay"

>>47448772

God-kings and revolutionaries. They're the people who rouse mobs into action, rule over nations, lead men and speak into the hearts of those around them. The fact that they've Survival and Integrity as caste abilities allow them to be cast as the Hermit Guru archtype, wise old sages living with nature with life lessons and advice to those that come to them.

>>47448772
I play a Night who's basically a paladin. "Paladin" - in the sense of "martially talented do-gooder" - is a valid concept for any caste, though its exact expression will vary to a degree depending on exactly which one.

Zeniths are inspirational leaders. Your Napoleon Bonapartes, your George Washingtons, your FDRs, your Lenins, etc.

>>47443921
This must be some kind of meme I don't get. Explain yourself.

>>47449222
There's a movie called Hamilton. They use it as a reason why there's no bureaucracy system. They could have at least had the skill interact with the resource system somehow, but man...

>>47444960
>the differance between step x and after attack roll but before damage roll is superficial.
Stop being daft. Reading "Step 5" is a lot easier than having to read half a sentence in "after attack roll but before damage is rolled". It's quicker and much more clear. The whole point of the Steps are so that you don't have to read the whole Charm each time to find out when you use it.

>>47449297
>movie
It's a rap musical.

>>47449222
From Stephenls:
>I've been listening to the Hamilton studio cast album on loop for the past couple of days, and just posted this to the Onyx Path Exalted forum:
>
>Hamilton is a highly stylized dramatization of the story of a bunch of people founding a nation and then getting into huge rows about how to govern and defend it while trying to maintain meaningful personal lives in parallel to their political careers, and how those political careers and ideologies and personal lives and passions crash into each other, leading to world-shaping triumphs and devastating tragedies. It is directly relevant to the question "Why no governance simulator?"
>
>It's sung-through, so the album has all but, like, two lines of dialog from the stage -- it hangs together as essentially a musical radio play, and the musical motiffs keep which-character-is-delivering-which-lines straight even if you're not great at telling voices apart. It comes with my highest recommendation.
>
>And if Daveed Diggs as Lafayette isn't a Solar I don't know who is.
The meme is that everyone who works at White Wolf is retarded and needs to be killed.

>>47449367
Pretty much their reasoning ends up being "to properly run a society in exalted, you don't need rules, you need to listen to this other thing that isn't included in the product that we have. No we won't tell you this in the product and no we won't include even advice for it outside of the incredibly vague project system."

I've gotten word that my local pawn shop has some Exalted books in stock for 20 bucks each and I'm already making plans to buy some.
That being said, should I just buy the core rules and get the rest through PDF or do the other books have information that I'll need on hand?
Also if I want to play a sidereal, will I still be viable in gameplay or will I be as useless as a fighter in 3.5?
I'm not sure what editions they are or anything.

>>47449427

They're probably not 3E, as only one 3E book has been released. The mechanics of them are likely to be useless - only the setting fluff carries through from previous editions, and not always all of that. $20 sounds like they're overpriced, for books that are almost-certainly obsolete.

If any of them are the setting books from 1E that were called out as being directly relevant to 3E, they might be worth it.

Unless, or course, you're already playing in a non-3E game. Then they could be worthwhile. But I'd say your chances of picking up a game with the older edition is even lower than that of finding a 3E game.

As for a Sidereal - particularly as a starting player, I'd try and stick with a splat-homogenous game. That is, if you want to play a Sidereal, play a game where everyone's a Sidereal, and you're all members of a task force, sent by Heaven into special ops missions in Creation.

>>47449480
I've never played exalted before. I'm in Canada, where rpg books usually cost 60 bucks each, so this is a deal I'll probably never see again.
So what you're saying is that the core book is all that's needed to play the game?
Also, is there a distinct advantage between 1st and 2nd edition and should I just leave them if the inferior edition is what they have?

>>47449573
Second edition's lore is basically worse than first's in every way. Writers weren't allowed to reprint what was said before or really expand upon the setting, so much as just talk about inane minutiae of what was established in 1e. 2e was horrendously mismanaged to an insane degree, like, it is literally unbelievable.

The mechanical systems of 2e are mildly superior because in 1e it wasn't hard to get your passive defenses so high that it was basically impossible for anyone to ever hit you. Otherwise, they're trash. 3e has actually good mechanics, generally speaking (BP/XP aside).

Manacle and Coin; Scavenger Sons; Games of Divinity are the 1e books that are best for lore, from general consensus. I've also been told good things about 1e Abyssals and 1e Sidereals, though that's not so much a consensus answer as a recommendation from a single friend.

>>47449643
Lore books don't really matter to me, I can get all that stuff from PDFs or from the core book. So what you're saying is go for it if it's 1e, see if there's a better game if it's 2e, and if it's 3e then someone must have gotten bored with it REALLY fast.

>>47449222
>Still nerds that haven't heard Hamilton

>>47449694
If you're not interested in lore the only reason to go for a given edition is to play a game, and 2e is marginally more functional on that level. Given that 3e exists, the only reason to go for 2e as a game is because you want to play something that isn't a Solar or Heroic Mortal.

I don't know what splats work mechanically in 2e, other than that Infernals are functional and basically optimized for 2e's rules paradigm and Sidereals are completely nonfunctional. Oh, and 2e Lunars are trash just like 1e Lunars.

>>47435137
I'd say there's many a crunchy system that could run a fun Exalted, it's just not any variation of Storyteller.

>>47448772
>what exactly were zeniths?
the best caste in the entire game

>>47449326
No those are both exactly as clear as each other assuming you have a reading level above elementary school.

>>47449735
Thanks. I do care about lore, don't get me wrong, but I have my doubts that I'm going to need two extra books worth of it to run a game properly. So I guess that means I should just get 3rd edition if I'm interested and if not just buy a different system?

>>47449367
I think the point they're trying to make is that the old kingdom ruling thing from back in storytellers companion is shit because it reduces things like 'what makes a good government' or 'what makes a good culture' down to a single stat on a cities stat block that can be determined with a single roll.

>>47449813
Then don't make it a single stat on a city's stat block that can be determined with a single roll??? They didn't make Craft doable in a single roll (or single action), a fact I'm reminded of every time my circle's Twilight sits down with a bucket of dice and jerks himself off.

>>47449813
To be fair, a good amount of a kingdom's culture could be modeled with sort of intimacies with a reminder that counter-cultures and sub-cultures are a critical component of a society and cultural intimacies represent broad tendencies in the society.

>>47449830
No its not the single roll thing. They could turn it into a giant drawn out thing but thats still missing the point. Countless wars have been fought and books written about why one government is better than another, to reduce all that to a dice roll of any kind would be dumb. Its the same reason there is no Make Creation a Better Place Prana.

>>47449813

There's a difference between a "good" leader, and an "effective" leader.

Hitler was an effective leader. He successfully rallied his country behind him, mobilized and directed immense military power, co-ordinated huge social, economic and industrial projects.

But he wasn't exactly a "good" leader.

Bureaucracy charms should make you an "effective" leader, just as social charms make you an "effective" communicator. Whether your use of that effectiveness turns you into a hero or a monster is sort of the whole point of the game.

>>47449887
No arguments there, except that I think many of the current bureaucracy charms already do that pretty well.

>>47449866
Is there no random component to political decisions? I mean, even in Ex3's nigh-nonexistent paradigm, there is. You try to convince the rebellious officer not to revolt. You fail. You try to bring military forces down on the civilians of a city under your rule. You succeed.

Like, these guys, in that Swallow interview thing, they say that they go beyond the world of TTRPGs for inspiration, that they look to Musashi to inspire the Initiative system, to the Tudors for the social system. I guess it's too bad nobody has ever written any books on political economy.

>>47449910
Yeah there definatly is, and it makes sense that an exalt invested in being good at leading would be good at leading but, well basically this >>47449887
Under the old system you could just be a great leader that everyone loved who bought prosperity wherever he went with a few dice rolls. There should i think be systems for running big organizations and stuff, and i suspect we may even see some in future supplements, but i dont really have any idea how to model that.

>>47449910

The difference is, social-fu has a whole system for its charms to hang off. The Project system is so vestigial as to be non-existent, and doesn't interact with bureaucracy much, let alone give Charms mechanical hooks to hang off.

What Bureaucracy charms do you consider good? Speed the Wheels and Foul Air of Argument are ok, but that whole tree of bureaucraftic defences (Engimatic Bureau Understanding, Bureua Reforming, Woe-Capturing, Omen Spawning, etc) seems incredibly niche.

The other good ones in Bureaucracy are non-project ones, like Soul Snaring Pitch.

>>47450121
The introductory bureaucracy economy charm seems best used to simply see if first age artifacts work or not.

Hell, the entire market bureaucracy sub-tree seems best used to guarantee that a craftsman can always get the "character is rewarded in game for their efforts" goal

>>47450164
What if the main difference between Exalt power levels was merely their excellency and dice cap, and they all got charms of similar power level?

>>47450641
Oops, didn't mean to reply

>>47447090
They wish to live deliciously

With regards to social influence, is Instill or Inspire more appropriate to calm someone in a heated argument down?

>>47451276
Instill

>>47451276

I would say inspire. Inspire determines the overriding emotion they're feeling. If you inspire calmness, they're no longer feeling argumentative, they're feeling calm - but it only lasts the scene.

Instill is to create longer term attachments to a certain person, object, or concept. You could use inspire to erode their attachment to thing their arguing about, or create a principle in support of your position. You would then "win" the argument, but they'd still be all fired up - instill changes opinions and beliefs, but not transient emotional states.

Swift Sage's Eye should be an Essence 1 Charm, or Essence 2 at most. Being able to write anything extremely quickly is a Linguistics 1 Essence 1 effect, but being able to read extremely quickly is a Linguistics 5 Essence 3 effect? What were they thinking?

>>47452115
Yeah, I'm only using Linguistics for the write and read fast charms, but I really hate how distant and pointless the speedbumps are for the latter.

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Hey, guys, so despite promises they have yet to fix the godawful cover art, it looks like trash, and I can't show it to anyone. In lieu of doing so I made a cut of the Wu-Jian introduction, which is in my honest opinion pretty fucking amazing and probably the best part of the entire book. It evokes pretty much everything I want Exalted to evoke across the board, and the "this is Wu-Jian" splash page gave me actual chills.

What I use it for is to introduce people to Exalted without all the bad juju; I just have them read it and tell me what they think. In case any of you want to do the same, here it is.

>>47452231
The art quality in the book varies wildly. It opens with cool mosaic-looking stuff and occasionally has clearly worked-on pieces like the Lunar eating the cakes, but then it has deviantart-tier garbage like for Crane Style.

So in Morke's world soon is greater then a month. I wonder what his mental timescale is for the rest of the series. Because the memes could very much be real in how long each book coming out is going to take.

>>47439542
The Developers do not know how often a charm will come up.

>>47452405
Do you think the developers are unaware that Liquid Steel Flow sees a lot more use by Single Point stylists than Gathering Light Concentration? Or do you think that, in principle, it is impossible to know this?

>>47442242
They're not getting a hardback, I think.

>>47452324
Huh? I can't see any art for Crane Style. Or do you mean that one of the guy shouting? I thought that was Nightingale.

>>47452405
Not exactly, no, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that, in general, Excellent Strike will see more use than Woe-Capturing Web.

Some charms are general purpose, some are niche, and it's not hard to distinguish between the two.

>>47444428
Devs have confirmed that essence regeneration happens normally - no one has the situation that they aren't getting motes.

>>47445041
Nexus, Chiaroscuro and Imperial City, and maybe Paragon as well, have around a million inhabitants. They aren't really *big* cities as much as ridiculously fuckhuge cities, and also anomalies among the cities of Creation. I'd say that in most places in Creation more than ten thousand inhabitants would make for a big city, with several tens of thousands to couple of hundreds of thousands of inhabitants being appropriate for the largest cities of a region.

>>47449418
I think their reasoning is that rules for running a society would be an absurd simplification that would remove more stories than it enabled.

The better option is the ST trying to model the consequences of your actions as best he can.

>>47452540
I don't need "rules for running a society." I need "rules for what happens when I try to build a huge infrastructure project" and "rules for what happens when I try to reform the tax/criminal code."

>>47452540
Rules for handling combat, social influence, even crafting, are absurd simplifications. This is a good thing, as rules that capture the whole complexity of pretty much anything would be ridiculously complex. Running a society or interacting with its institutions isn't special compared to other pursuits, not in any way that would make it sensible to have rules for interacting with people but not for interacting with societies.

>>47452413
The conversation was about charms from different trees, not charms within the same tree.

>>47452554
There aren't rules for that, rules for that would be stupid. What you need are guidelines, which I agree would be helpful.

>>47452585
Societies are a great deal more complicated than a fist fight. Your argument is a bit of a stretch.

>>47452554
>"rules for what happens when I try to reform the tax/criminal code."
As someone ho would also like to have a real Bureaucracy system. this seems pretty unreasonable to me. I mean, having rules for how hard it is to make such reforms, and for what kinds of complications you migh encounter along the way, sure, that sounds good, but the end results should be left up to the player and the ST.

>>47452585
You interact with societies BY interacting with people. Look at Performance.

>>47452628
Then why even bother having bureaucracy as a skill, if Performance encompasses the totality of interacting with societies via it's interaction with individuals?

>>47452616
Individuals are also pretty complicated, and in some ways less predictable than societies. Why are there rules for influencing them?

>>47452625
I'm not saying literally "2+ threshold sux no graft" stuff. I mean, it's not like an Eclipse Oath is 100% clear on exactly what happens, but they still actually are rules.

>>47452642
Because they are almost infinitely simpler than a society.

I seem like the only one who liked Creation-Ruling Mandate rules and am using them in 3e. It has its flaws but still as long as you don't try and game it I think it works pretty well.

What set up can you fit in to an ambush before your enemy gets to take an action?
Can you aim while hidden, and then use that aim bonus on the first action in the ambush?
Can you take the time to buff up with ISE, form charms and other scenelongs?
Can you reposition before the attacks?

If you're forced into Join Battle right away, and the opponent can respond on their first turn, then that's lame.

>>47452596
Well, if you're talking about whether Harmonious Presence Meditation or Liquid Steel Flow are "better," I would say that there *is* still a meaningful element of balance. If we imagine an Exalted 3e where all the social Charms are incredibly niche and nigh-worthless, and all the combat Charms are still as strong, this would be unbalanced.

"Ability to meaningfully affect the narrative" is a space every Charm is competing in, and some do it better than others. It's trivial to realize that Mastery of Small Manners is a lot more niche and less useful than Liquid Steel Flow, unless your campaign is insanely tightly focused. If Socialize was made up of nothing but MSM-style Charms, and Single Point of nothing but LSF-style Charms, I would say they're imbalanced. Fortunately, they're not.

Balance, in a system like Exalted, does not need to be precise, but yes, it does need to exist, and it can be understood to exist.

Looks like incest boy from the other thread posted a thread on the forums:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/899895-squicky-question-about-dragon-blooded

>>47452664
This is really faulty logic you're flaunting. You mischaracterize Exalted combat as "a fistfight" and say that means you shouldn't have rules for running a nation. You conveniently choose to ignore the game mechanics for war strategies and armies fighting because thinking about it for five seconds might reveal how stupid you are.

>>47452752

An ambush is an attack made while hidden, before your target has acted in combat. By definition, all you can "fit into it" is a single attack.

I think what you actually mean is, what can you do from stealth, before you actually enter the combat system.

Sorry for being pedantic, but "ambush" is a technical term in the rules, which has a technical definition, so using it improperly can just cause a whole lot of confusion.

This isn't exactly spelled out in the system. If I was STing, I'd let you do all those things, but I'd give the target a reflexive (Perception + Awareness) check every round to notice you, and if he notices you before you declare your attack and roll join battle, no ambush for you.

Note that there are other rules that interact - moving while hidden involves a stealth roll with penalties, and your aim action can be wasted if your target moves out of range.

>>47452826
It's fine, because armies fighting is also much simpler than societies.

>>47452863
But far more complicated than individuals fighting.

>>47452863
Maybe so - though societies sure as hell aren't more complex than individuals in all ways - but literally every system in every role-playing game is and should be a simplification. Why should the complexity of societies be respected and preserved in a way unlike anything else?

>>47452893
Because if you simplify societies then the setting falls apart. Try running a game with Creation Ruling Mandate.

>>47452941

> One particular society-modelling system doesn't work
> There all society-modelling systems don't work

Top logic, anon.

>>47452941
The game also falls apart of you simplify individuals. Luckily, that's not what the social influence system does. People are still people, who actively pursue their own goals, who act, think and feel in whatever way is appropriate for their values and personalities. Social influence system provides a framework for certain ways of interacting with people, it doesn't strictly define how people fundamentally work. How would doing something similar for societies cause the setting to fall apart?

Question. Does anyone ever oppose a persuasion roll with an intimacy? Or do you keep that intimacy in-hand to use in the Decision Point?

I've found that, at our table, people will generally just let the persuade succeed, and then nope out of it with a decision poiint; burning the intimacy just for an increased *chance* of success isn't worth it when it and a willpower can guarantee it.

>>47453295
Your table has a lot of willpower to go around, I guess.

which fighting style is best for a roman legion type

>>47453295
The decision point represents your character being swayed by an argument, but resisting the influence by force of will. It's not something done lightly.

In our game people mostly go along with social influence unless it's out of character for them, in which case they spend willpower. They certainly don't respond as though attacked.

>>47453357
Can you clarify what you mean by fighting style?

>>47453357
Melee, it has a variety of weapon types, well-rounded and good defences with defend other for formations.

>>47453338
I'll admit, Spirit-Maintaining Manoeuvre is pretty common in our group. It's a fairly minimal buy-in.

>>47453378
>The decision point represents your character being swayed by an argument, but resisting the influence by force of will. It's not something done lightly.

Unless the fact that it's not something done lightly is supported by mechanical hardship, that's just meaningless fluff. Decision Points are already a mechanical abstraction; my players are going to decide whether or not to use them on a mechanical basis, not a fluff one.

>In our game people mostly go along with social influence unless it's out of character for them
Yeah, I was specifically talking about social influence they *wanted* to resist. I guess I thought that was implied.

>>47453378
>They certainly don't respond as though attacked.

Um, cool? No idea what that was in response to.

>>47453357
Standard Melee

Does a Resistance Supernal Dawn whose primary combat style is Brawl get anything from investing in Dodge?

How high can spirits progress in sorcery in 3e? I can't find anything anywhere that specifies how high non-exalts can go, but the fact that someone like Mara or an Ifrit Lord can keep teaching you as you advance up all the way through Solar Circle makes me wonder how high of a Circle they have access to themselves. It seems implausible that they'd only have Terrestrial Circle themselves, when they can be used as a source of training and enlightenment by a sorcerer going from Celestial to Solar.

>>47454224
Dodge is a lot better at increasing Evasion than Brawl is at increasing Parry, and there are even Brawl charms that increase your Evasion to boot.

Furthermore, both Resistance and Dodge have 'unarmored' charms which synergize well together as a result.

So, I wouldn't call Dodge a mandatory purchase or anything, but I'd definitely call it a useful one if you decide to triple down on combat.

>>47454444
Major Spirits like Mara can get up to Celestial Circle. Incarna/3CDs/Greater Elemental Dragons may or may not have Solar Circle Sorcery-like effects.

>>47454467
OK, thanks. I just wanted to be sure it wouldn't be redundant with my Resistance to have a modest investment in Dodge, too.

One more thing, can you use Medicine on yourself?

>>47454534
Yes.
>A character treating his own wounds raises the difficulty by 1.

>>47454534
What you'll want is Wind and Stones Defense from Brawl, the onslaught charms like Ferocious Jab, Falling Hammer Strike, and Hammer on Iron Technique.

Then, from Dodge, pick up the solid basics, like Reed in the Wind, Searing Quicksilver Flight, Drifting Leaf Elusion, and Shadow Over Water at Essence 1, then Force-Stealing Feint, and Fourfold Shiver binding at Essence 2.

With those, you'll keep your opponent's defense ground down to 0, keep your own Evasion untouchably high, and soak up Initiative every time your enemy misses you. It works extremely well in practice, and work even better if you have Resistance to soften blows on the rare occasion that you do get hit.

>One more thing, can you use Medicine on yourself?
For sure, it's just harder.

How long was the Balorian Crusade? Did it go on for years? Seasons? Mere months or weeks?

>>47454724
It broke time. We don't know.

>>47455077
Really? I thought it was just the Primordial War that had a ??? duration. The Balorian Crusade/Great Contagion did too?

>>47455090
They lost most historical records, that's for sure.

>>47455090
Fae don't really "do" linear time

>>47455161
But it was only ~750 years ago, and Lookshy is still relatively intact. 'How long the war was,' or more accurately 'what year the war started on,' seems like a pretty basic thing to not-forget, even if most of the more specific details have been lost.

Same with the Contagion.

>>47455172
They kinda do, actually. That's one of the concepts that the existence of Creation imposed on the Wyld, and why many Fair Folk are so offended by it.

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/tg/, lets say I were making a Solar that used to be a maid.

What attribute would I use for to represent skill in tasks expected for a maid or a housewife?

>>47456099
Socialize, Awareness.

>>47456099
Also stealth. The help learn not to disturb.

Just keep in mind what made them Solar-worthy.

>>47456099
Socialize.

Maybe Stealth (how to be seen but not heard; Easily-Overlooked Presence Method, for example, seems like a particularly appropriate Charm), perhaps Bureaucracy (if she was in a position of authority/had administrative involvement in the day-to-day running of the household).

>>47456099

If there's any one in particular, it'd be Socialize for their etiquette and decorum, but otherwise it doesn't really fall under any unless you take it to extremes. Athletics to lift entire beds to clean under them (with the master still in them), Survival to tame the birds and dinosaurs that live on the property, Resistance to clean the furnace while it's still going, etc.

>>47456099
I mostly agree with what else is posted, I'll just add Craft. (food, decorations, repairing clothes, etc)

>>47456258

>2016
>still splitting Craft

>>47456312
I didn't meant to split it, I meant to explain why a maid would /have/ Craft in the first place since the players I've had mostly thought of Craft in terms of weapons, artifacts, and artifact weapons.

>>47456312
>Not using Sanctaphrax's Craft rewrite

>>47456356
>not using the core Craft system which is perfect in every way.

>>47456349

I realized that after I posted it. Sorry.

>>47456374

kek

>>47456374
>not using the combat system to physically cleave your craft-works from the universe itself

>>47456099
If she's a housewife give her Performance (Sex).

>>47456099
Huh. What IS the Ability for cleaning? For planting fields and harvesting crops? I know that Animal Husbandry is under Survival.

>>47452231
whats wrong with the cover art? Its just some weird stylized painting of person with a shiny forehead.

>>47456733
Cleaning is Athletics. Planting and harvesting is Survival

>>47456460
>not using the lore system to introduce the fact of your craft-works already being done

>>47456751
>athletics is where all miscellaneous physical anything goes
>athletes are the best at cleaning
Beyond disgusting. Cleaning is an appropriate physical attribute plus Socialize or something. It's physical etiquette.

>>47456825
Cleaning is a physical act, not socal. You're thinkng of feng shui

>>47456733
Why the fuck would you roll for cleaning?

>>47456842
If you can make a lving from it, you roll for it

>>47456838
Which is why it's Socialize plus a Physical Attribute. It's a physical application of etiquette.

It doesn't have fuckall to do with running, jumping, or playing sports.

>>47456842

You wouldn't, for basic cleaning, anymore than you'd roll to sharpen your sword or to play fetch with your dog.

Cleaning an entire house with a single sweep of your broom or cleaning a room to the satisfaction of the Hundred-Eyed Carp, however...

>>47456854
What is this, your retard hous-erules?

>>47456099
None really. Most of those things arent complex enough that they would require a roll. I'd just say 'you work for x amount of time and clean the place'

>>47456909
Rolling determines how well you do something. Since it's possible to be good or bad at cleaning, ncluding making a living from it then it's a roll

>>47456925
I can see you trying to justify it and I respect that, but it's still your retard house-rules.

>>47456925
It's also possible to choke to death on my food. You gonna make me roll that too?

>>47456944
f you choke on your food you roll to see if you can hock it back up before dying. Someone gving you abdomenal compressions is a teamwork roll

>>47456959
>teamwork roll
What fucking system are you even talking about? Are you in the wrong thread?

>>47449784
why?

>>47456977
He's trolling you nitwit, stop replying.

I actually think just slapping the creation ruling mandate from masters of Jade back into 3e would work pretty well. It was good but all the rules involved internal stuff like splitting up into subsections or absorbing other ones or growing a certain trait. But actually making the thing actually do something had no rules. So why not just have those same rules for building and managing organizations and then use the project system for getting the organization to do stuff

>>47457190

Its what I do. I actually found them pretty fun.

Does the Realm practice arranged marriage? I mean, from childhood/before Exaltation (obviously striking it out if/when the kid winds up not Exalting).

>>47457592

Of course they do. At least most houses. Breeding is important. But that does not mean you can't take your own lovers and concubines and is more then an accepted if not expected practice.

>>47457592
It's probably more common to arrange marriage after Exaltation, or after Exaltation starts to seem unlikely. That's when you know how desirable a partner the Dynast in question is.

So what effects other than the height increase, the extra -0 hp level and the disguise penalty would/should the giant merit give?

>>47462430

Uh, there's no more listed, so, none?

Definitely nothing mechanical. If you want to fluff some, most people wouldn't complain. Bear in mind that it's not "Giant" as in "member of a race of giant humans", its "Giant" as in, "I'm a normal human who through a freak of genetics (or Wyld exposure) is very big",

>>47462430

At the size increase it represents? Not much. I guess an extra die on control rolls in grapples would fit with legendary size (which makes them unopposed).

Chopping the price to 2 or 3 dots seems easier to balance than trying to make it worth 4 dots.

>>47462473
Well it seems to provide very little benefits for a 4dot meric

>>47462504
So do most of the merits. They're one of the worst parts of the system, and my group plays without most of them.

>>47462504

Oh, right, you were asking a re-balancing question, not a RAW question. Yeah, it's a little shit, but so are most of the combat-related merits.

Melee/Resistance: a good idea, or a stupid one?

>>47462504
The official dev stance is that that one extra health level is worth the cost. You are now invited to laugh bitterly along with me.

>>47462597

Makes you very good at being outnumbered, with decent offense and some soak-cracking skill yourself.

Good idea, overall.

>>47462542
>>47462637

Still not as bad as Martial Artist.

'You get to spend points in order to gain the ability to spend more points on a skill (Different to the skill you had to buy in order to get the merit) in order to buy charms from a cool but rather limited tree with little versatility!'

>>47462649

Decent idea, although Resistance is generally only good with a heavy investment, so you're going to be very combat-invested if you want to get the nifty melee tricks, as well as the bread-and-butter.

Resistance is never bad, but Melee's probably the combat skill that *needs* it the least.

>>47462637

Worth 4 points worth of merits? Probably; it's not like those are particularly valuable. Worth 4 bonus points? Absolutely not.

>>47462674
IIRC, Martial Artist merit exists because otherwise everybody became martial artists due to Solar XP. It's a kludge on a kludge.

>>47462698

All the people in my group have some form of SXP sink - either Sorcery, MA or Evocations. MA is the only one that gets taxed.

And it's not like you can't buy the merit with SXP.

Has anyone done a quick summary of the 3e Charmtrees? Like... each tree has its own feel and style to it, from the ones I've played with, but it's hard to process these massive Charmtrees to get their gist (e.g. Dodge is all about that init, Socialize has its personas bullshit, Resistance is about tanking hits that do collide).

>>47462745
I didn't say it was a good kludge, or that it worked, or anything.

Ok, me and my players are in an argument over how magical illusions works

I have a character playing a shell game with a group of illusory doubles. I think that finding the real character should be rolled against the strength of the illusion while one player says that it should be a contested roll against the npcs stealth

Can anyone give me a quick reference on how illusion magic works?

>>47463097

Uh? There's no general rule; usually whatever power is providing the illusion defines how specifically it's handled.

Illusions for example tend to be contested by Awareness (to see through them if they're literal projects of light and sound) or rolled against Resolve (if they're a more mental effect).

As for what the illusion-user rolls, it also heavily depends on what kind of illusion effect it is; I could easily see Stealth, Dodge, Larceny, or Socialize being used depending on the magic, or, yes, just a flat difficulty representing some specific "innate" magic, a la shapeshifting.

>>47463201
if the illusion is rolled against Resolve, would it be the caster has to beat the resolve for the magic roll every turn, or the players roll their resolve as die or what?

>>47463395

Probably just "The user rolls [appropriate attribute + ability combination] vs. the targets' Resolve. If it passes, they're tricked until they spend [x] willpower to see through the illusion."

With the usual caveats about illusory doubles (presumably) disappearing when they're struck by an attack or otherwise interacted with, and the idea of "bypassing" the illusion by just attacking them all at once with a big enough AoE.

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Just played Exalted for the first time last night, and decided to read up on the lore. I'm torn about the game. On one hand, I like the fact that you can just start off as epic Demi-Gods. On the other, in my opinion there's such a thing as being too powerful which is seemingly what happens after you surpass Essence 5. Eventually the game becomes so easy, there's simply no real reason to keep playing. But the setting is what I jointly like and dislike.

The setting itself reminds me of a Shonen anime which is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good, because I like having that funky Steampunk Mecha Roman Samurai world providing a backdrop for your character's adventures. You have politicking between Super Powered Great Houses scheming to seize control of a decaying Empire while Barbarians begin to press against the frontier. Then on top of it all: a Chicago Mob-equivalent led by a fat outcast is the only thing keeping the whole thing from incinerating into ruin. That's fun. Scheming, politics, epic wars, Mobster drama, what isn't there to like?

It's a interesting world but just like a Shonen, the setting is quickly ignored in favor of power levels. Ok, hear me out: in Naruto the anime started with a pretty cool world with Ninja-Mage villages existing in a psudeo Cold War with one another. But then as the anime went on, it became less about the world and more about having OP God Warriors duking it out while throwing whatever mystery and wonder the setting had to offer out through the window. Now the whole thing revolves around your characters just like Naruto revolves around his homo-erotic relationship with Sasuke, Bleach around Ichigo, and DBZ around Goku.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with like that form of story telling, scaling power levels and all, but I prefer keeping the world large and expansive with your PC just a small part of it even with all his great power. So I'm kind of "meh" when it comes to this game. Also, Mortals represent.

>>47463683

Sounds like that you'd like either a DB or Sidereal game. Powerful people playing politics is their thing.

>>47463683
>after you surpass Essence 5.

Good thing you won't unless the GM wants you to, and if he lets you, it's probably because he's prepared to tell exactly that kind of high-powered story without you getting bored.

That said, the "Elder power" differential seems to be a lot smaller this time around anyway; 90% of the power of an Exalt is found between Essence 1 and Essence 5; everything past Essence 6 is just fireworks and navel-gazing.

>>47463683
>after you surpass Essence 5
That's... not a fucking thing.

Goddamn I hate Holden.

>>47462780

I can try off the cuff.

Archery: Long-distance sniping, rapid-fire, intimacy-enhanced attacks
Athletics: Super-stronk, super-fast, super-jumpy
Awareness: Super-senses, detect hidden, join battle enhancers
Brawl: Single-target smackdown. Grappling. Likes onslaught, poor defence
Bureaucracy: Buying and selling, social influence on members of an organisation, protecting organisations, saboutaging organisations.
Craft: Make stuff (more/better/faster). Including a robot you. Then turn it all into free XP.
Dodge: Init theft. Not getting hit, self-healing
Integrity: Noping influence and shaping. Regenerating resources (motes, willpower, etc)
Investigation: Super-sherlock. Dice tricks for years. Lie-detector
Larceny: Disguise, Theft, Grifting
Linguistics: Dicking people over with words
Lore: Teaching, shifting resources around, understanding artifacts, Wyld Shaping
Medicine: Healing really hard, and really fast. Dice tricks for years. Some preventative medicine.
Melee: Balanced combat. Has good defence, offence, flurry and clash.
Occult: See/punch/summon/talk to/eat spirits
Performance: Emotional manipulation, inspiring others, seduction, rewrite memories
Presence: Being scary, instilling intimacies, buffing minions, programming sleeper agents, more seduction
Resistance: Armour not sucking, getting hit not sucking (resist damage, regain essence/willpower), getting angry
Ride: Make your horse fast/tough/dodgy/defend you
Sail: Sailing gud, being tough, protecting your ship
Socialize: Understanding others, preventing them from understanding you, becoming schizophrenic
Stealth: Hiding. Ambush repeatedly. Hiding others. Teleporting.
Survival: Super-powered pets. Also not dying in the bush, a bit.
Thrown: Stealth synergy. Ambushes. Hitting everyone before they get at turn.
War: Winning Strategy rolls, and a little bit of buffing Battle Groups and training super soldiers.

>>47463754
Yes, it is. Though only if your ST wants to, as explicitly stated in the book on page 179.

>>47464050
>only if your ST wants to
Which is why it's not a fucking thing.

>>47464114
Okay, but it explicitly is. Just because you will not, or your ST will not, does not mean it's not a thing. Dipshit.

>>47464148
Talking about Essence 6+ play in Exalted is like talking about Level 21+ play in D&D. It could hypothetically, technically, be a thing according to the rules.

But in actual reality, where real games happen, it's not a fucking thing.

>>47463683
Im gonna assume you mean 2e? Because thats the one with the game breaking essence 6+ effects

>>47464148

Sure, but going above E5 affects absolutely nothing in 3E, because there is next to no support for it. A couple of charms get minor upgrades. Essence pools get bigger. That's it.

Sure, thematically, you get phenomenal cosmic power, but since nobody has bothered to write any phenomenal cosmic power, you just get whatever you want to homebrew, which you can do in any system.

>>47464197
Okay but it is. You keep saying it's not, but the fact that it requires DM permission doesn't make it not a thing. The difference between Ess. 6+ and level 20+ in D&D is that this is called out as a thing that can happen in the CORE BOOK. As well as having enemies that are essence 6. Spirits or not, they count.

>>47464228
Right, but that doesn't make it not a thing. I only have a problem with people saying it's not a thing. It's most certainly a thing.

>>47464233
>>47464148
>>47464050
Man, I've never wanted to call someone autistic on the internet before, so instead I'll call you a retard. Go to bed, you poor, stupid nerd.

>>47464249
>I was wrong so i'm just going to call you a retard.
And i'm the autist. Right.

>>47464247
>I only have a problem with people saying
You're an autist having a semantic argument. Just accept that people use figurative hyperbole, even if you yourself are incapable of anything other than literalness. And then just stop.

>>47464276
Yep, I am arguing with people over the internet. I should have realized I was autistic the moment this began.

>>47464304
You're having an argument where your main contention is that you don't like someone's word choices when taken literally.

Yes, you should have realized you were autistic the moment this began, you raging moron.

>>47464360
I will take your words to heart, Anon.

are there any buffing spells or effects that people would recommend?

New thread.

>>47464540