/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>Werewolf stealing a baby

>>47290184
Its a breeding farm!!!

>>47290153
How about a dark era around beasts where we get to fight for minority rights and that it's fine for us to be horrible monsters because other people did it to us first?

So a Dark Era set around the SJW era :D

>>47290153
Gilded Age Hunter. Basically the best mixture of Wild West, Victorian and Class War.

>>47290220

Joke's on you, the Beast Dark Age is Reconstruction-Era United States.

On second thought, no, the joke is on all of us.

>>47290200
Or a midnight snack?

>>47290184
>>47290200
>>47290265
Going by the fact that it's from the upcoming W20 Kinfolk book, the baby is probably one of the Kinfolk.

>>47290262
Oh shit Beast is getting a dark era? I wonder if it'll make it bearable at all.

>>47290262
I hope it doesn't try and dodge the fact that the KKK would be crawling with Beasts.

>>47290153
>What Dark Eras would you like to see?
Would've been nice to see a legit attempt at an Asian world of Darkness setting. Some that might be interesting:

> Japan after the Meiji Restoration
> India during the movement for independence from the British Empire
> China in the 20th century, dealing with corrupt Communist government, the oppression of Tibet, or something to do with Hong Kong
> Persia in a semi-mythical fashion, á la the Neolithic Dark Era

It's a shame non-Western settings don't get much serious attention in the World of Darkness.

>>47290558
>It's a shame non-Western settings don't get much serious attention in the World of Darkness.
That's what you get with a predominantly western audience. Japanese people don't go crazy over Poland, either.

>>47290558
Tokyo is in every 2e core book and there are two Asian dark eras :V

>>47290585

They love France, though.

>>47290668
They also have a specific form of depression around their uninformed love of Paris.

>>47290558
> Japan after the Meiji Restoration

All of my yes.

>>47290585
>>47290558

There's also that people still burn with incandescent levels of triggering over fucking everything remotely sensitive on the topic, like that one guy who was absolutely buttdevastated that there was a Holocaust book for Wraith, despite that it was a jewish guy who wrote it...

Just best to steer clear.

>>47290720
There's a guy buttdevistated over the Shoals of Europe? Aha, fuck man why, it's a game about death.

>>47290770
Yes. The dude shut himself up, and possibly committed suicide once he found out the guy writing about the Ghostocaust was jewish,, as he hasn't been back, unlike the guy who is still upset about the fucking Ravnos.

>>47290835
I kinda guess being bootybothered by the Ravnos since they where just, "Lul gypsies' for awhile... Or still are, I guess.

>>47290377
I don't think so. It seems much more like Hero turf, where they grow powerful based off of society's fears of the other. Of course, there might be Beasts there, but the intersection would lead to constant bloodshed until one group won out, and I think it would be Heroes.

>>47290835

I do like how the Ravnos have been mostly improved in V20. Always liked them, even if I wasn't a huge fan of some of their presentation in previous editions, so it's nice. Chimestry is probably my favorite Discipline, even though I just stick to playing Ventrue or Brujah types.

It helps that the Ravnos have the undisputed best official theme.

>>47290949
>>47290377
Isn't bullying and terrorizing people because they need to be taught a lesson the very essence of Beast, to the extent of drinking blood and keeping it secret the essence of Vampire?

>>47291011
Yeah I'm sure beasts would love scaring the shit out of blacks or the fear of someone getting lynched.

>>47290709
I would love to play a Geist / Werewolf cross-over, where both groups are trying to maintain a balance between the human world they love and the restless realm of spirits / ghosts in a Japan undergoing all the upheaval of the end of the Samurai era and finding its place on the world stage.

>>47290700
You know, it's funny but I don't think I've ever seen the Ken-sama copypasta turned around to be about a Japanese Francaboo.

>>47290770

>Shoals of Europe

I know you mean the Shoah, but I'm imagining ghost sand banks and it's great.

>>47291087
Oh shit you're right, i'd love to see that.

>>47291123
Yes! That's what I meant, sorry, I have only a passing understanding of Wraith an all that. Waiting for 20th edition to come out before I dive in hard.

>>47291087
It could use a reference to the Pokemon region that's like a super classy and idealized vision of France.

>>47291031
As written, Beasts are the KKK. As the writers envision them, Beasts are noble misguided souls who prey on the KKK to teach them that fearmongering and hate are bad, mmkay.

>>47291011
Right, but there aren't any genuine lessons one could teach as part of the KKK.

>>47291181
Untrue.

>>47291181
Good thing Beasts don't need to teach lessons, ay?

>>47291193
/pol/ is thataway.

>>47291226
Any Beasts who did join would still be crowded out by the Heroes.

>>47290558
>It's a shame non-Western settings don't get much serious attention in the World of Darkness.
Some people get upset if they're not spot on accurate.
Others get upset if they're too accurate and not anime enough.

So there's no way to win.

>>47290835
Nah atamajakki is still around.

>>47291245
>/pol/ is thataway.
You don't need to visit /pol/ to see the lessons hate groups teach, especially for Beasts. Social conformity, fear of the other, sticking to your own kind, minding the rules, etc., etc.

Are those "positive" lessons? Depends on your perspective. But Beasts aren't positive things.

>>47291181
>genuine lessons

All forms of inflicting terror are about teaching people lessons. Generally, its some mix of telling outsiders to stay out and telling people you view as your lessers to stay down, sometimes both at once, and both are 100% relevant to the old timey Klan (carpetbaggers vs emancipated slaves).

Virtually any terrorist group is absolutely perfect inspiration for a Beast character and they tend to have motives that mix perfectly with the theme of Beast (ie you have transgressed, now you need to be taught a lesson). "The tall nail gets hammered down" is probably the phrase that best summarizes Beast.

>>47291358
>>47291431
Beasts are supposed to teach spiritually valid lessons. One of the reasons they're running around to begin with is irrelevant social fears clogging humanity's connection to the Primordial Dream, and racism is definitely one of those.

>>47291482
There is nothing in Beast I saw that talks about "spiritually valid" lessons or "irrelevant social fears".

Besides, racism is one of the oldest human fears. It's rooted in tribal antagonism.

>>47291501
That's not racism, that's xenophobia. Racism is treating or thinking of someone in a negative fashion because of their perceived race.

Xenophobia is the fear of the other.

>>47291482
Well, they -can- teach lessons if it makes them feel better about themselves.

>>47291482

The book makes it clear that "spiritually valid" is, at best, a social construct among Beasts. The Horror doesn't really care what it feeds on or what kind of lesson that it imparts, only that the victim feels the fear it's aligned its Hunger to.

>>47291172

At best, Beasts are Carpetbaggers. At worst, they're the KKK. Just the kind of splat you want to play.

>>47291245
>crowded out by the Heroes.
>Heroes
>in the KKK
>a group that operates communally and in the shadows, with little to no ability to take singular, ego-stroking credit, let alone be lavished in praise

>>47291524
Potato, potato.

>>47291524
Two words for the same basic thing. The KKK sees blacks as inferior and the other. Xenophobia and racism are always together, barring some weird self-hating racist thing.

>>47291482
"Don't defy your betters" is definitely a spiritually resonant message for Beasts, since Beasts are all about solidarity with other night creatures so they can keep their collective boot on the faces of humanity for all time. Basically, they are the Bizarro Hunters, out to unite the strong against the weak and the powerful against the powerless.

If you prefer, they could be nice Klansmen who clarify "Oh, we're not beating y'all because you're black, I really apologize for that dang durn misconception, we're hanging him because you're trying to reach above your station, HUGE difference. Think more the King of Tyre, Icarus, and that sort of thing. You may now return to your regularly scheduled mortal terror for your lives and all that."

>>47291358
But Beasts are the Other.

>>47291172
>>47291536
>>47291545
>>47291559
>>47291358
>And others about Beasts being in the KKK.
Other than a pretty overinflated impression of "Beasts are bastards", why on earth would they be in the KKK?

The KKK is a group that hates everything the Beasts are, and more than that it demonizes and rallies against The Other. You know, that thing Beasts are. It's a religious terrorist organization that hates blacks, Jews, and Catholics. While an individual Beast could find terrorizing and lynching people a perfectly fine way to feed his Horror, by and large, Beasts are not going to feel at home there. They're not going to terrorize and harass the dispossessed and downtrodden, they're going to make the powerful feel powerless. In fact, it's been a while, but I don't even think Beasts *can* feed on something so weaksauce as "make the scared person scared" outside of the very lowest levels. You don't become the baddest dragon by chewing on mice.

More than that, the KKK is everything that Heroes are. They're a group with more power trying to convince everyone that they should be afraid of the Other. They're the people who tell the Southerners to look to them for protection, because it's a dangerous world where Mandingo is going to rape their women. And that's basically where Racism in America started: convincing poor whites that poor blacks were going to steal and kill and take their jobs, so they should fight for the Confederacy to keep the purity of the nation. WEB Dubois called it the psychological wage of whiteness, because poor white Southerners were told those poor black Southerners were evil monsters, and that simply by being white they were on the winning team.

Beasts aren't the KKK. They're the Mandingo. They're the ones who rape the white women and threaten the former plantation owners. Not the ones burning crosses.

>>47291719
Cont. >>47291597
This is a way to make Beasts in the KKK work.
Although frankly Beasts don't really work in ANY organization larger than a bar full of vampires.

>>47291719
>Other than a pretty overinflated impression of "Beasts are bastards", why on earth would they be in the KKK?
It would depend on the Beast in question. I'm not saying Beasts would be in the KKK, I'm saying Beasts are the KKK. They occupy the same narrative space.

>More than that, the KKK is everything that Heroes are. They're a group with more power trying to convince everyone that they should be afraid of the Other

That's not what Heroes are, anon. Heroes are the ones without power being tormented by people with greater might than they who torment people to teach them lessons.

Heroes aren't white supremacists. They're more like Django.

Beasts never get to be a working metaphor for the Other because Beasts are actually harmful, dangerous monsters pushed to sadism and societal deterioration. Beasts are the 1%, the KKK, the Nazis, whatever. Heroes are victims who fight back.

>>47291719
Man this all sounds like some kinda Marxist SJW oppressor/opresse thing to me. I thought they got that out of beast.

>>47291719
>Beasts aren't the KKK. They're the Mandingo. They're the ones who rape the white women and threaten the former plantation owners. Not the ones burning crosses.
Sure thing, cracker.
For blacks, the KKK are Beast.

>>47291719

Even if your reading of Beasts as the Other is correct (I don't think it is, Beast suffers from the X-Men problem when it comes to whatever slim metaphor it has) that makes the game even worse. Instead of being the KKK, Beasts are now the Freemen in Birth of a Nation, and that's just as disgusting and distasteful as Beasts being part of the KKK. Why would I want to play a character whose method of feeding is potentially proving a bunch of racists right?

>>47291719
>why on earth would they be in the KKK?

Same reason a vampire would get involved with a night club where everyone is dead sexy, cosplays as a vampire, drinks people's blood, and is as discrete as possible?

>And that's basically where Racism in America started

I'd assume racism in America predates the country by a long shot, via the preexisting racist social conditions of A) slavery and B) the sad cycle of indian raiders did something->I can't fucking tell which kind of indian is responsible and I might not even understand how different in morality and culture these different tribes all are->better blame them all.

>>47291794
They didn't get it out of Beast at all. They did, last I checked, remove the explicit Gamergate reference, but the example Heros still involve a fedora'd neckbeard and a girl in a coma, and they're the real bad guys, not Miss Terrorizes Schoolchildren or Mr. Beats His Family.

Beast is just badly done, and the Beasts being intended as misunderstood victims and social progressives violating bad social norms but actually being the horrible monsters that justify all persecution is one part of that.

>>47291769
>I'm saying Beasts are the KKK. They occupy the same narrative space.
I literally just spent an entire post pointing out how that's wrong.
Also, that is not what Heroes are. Read the book. Beasts are also no more actively harmful than Batman. Even then, Heroes are also actively harmful. The things you're saying were barely true in the first draft and aren't true at all in the final draft.

>>47291803
>>47291794
Read the fucking book.

>>47291849
Why would I read something I don't find interesting? Fuck off Aspel.

>>47291849
>I literally just spent an entire post pointing out how that's wrong.
Yes, I know what your post attempted to do. Your post was completely incorrect.

>Also, that is not what Heroes are. Read the book. Beasts are also no more actively harmful than Batman. Even then, Heroes are also actively harmful. The things you're saying were barely true in the first draft and aren't true at all in the final draft.

This is completely false, and you need to read the book. Beast hungers are harmful, and even the nicest Beast is simply deciding how to harm the fewest people, rather than harm no people. Heroes, meanwhile, do not cause harm by existing- the worst they might do is cause collateral damage while hunting a Beast, but that is acceptable. You don't take out extremely potent supernatural monsters quietly and with no fuss.

>>47291849

>Beasts are also no more actively harmful than Batman.

Even the book doesn't agree with you, the largest antagonist besides Heroes are Beasts themselves, who have a nasty tendency to let their Hungers control them. There's also the end game where they transform into actively destructive amoral creatures. This is part of the inner conflict, the very idea of teaching lessons is a social rule setup for the splat's own survival, not any sort of cosmic mandate.

Please stop going to bat for a game you don't even like.

>>47291844
The section on Heroes itself is MUCH more sympathetic, and likely written by a different author, to Heroes. For example, its not clear that Girl In Coma is a fundamentally bad person or a gamergate metaphor or what not at all. She was just victimized horribly by a Beast, and now dedicates her life to stopping them because she thinks they're all horrible, cruel freaks (she's only mostly true, #NotAllBeasts).

>>47291719

Oh look it's Aspel who is literally autistic, an asshole and always wrong.

Why the fuck are you in every discussion on Beast here? By now we get your opinion and you should realize people don't fucking care what you think. So please stop and do something productive with your time.

>>47291181
Sure there are. Maybe not from our point of view, but in that time and place you could talk about how black people didn't know there place anymore and needed to be taught a lesson in public and people would agree with you. The only Collectors would find it even a little bit difficult to feed as a member of the KKK, but even then, they could do it if they started collecting body parts or something.

>>47291906
>For example, its not clear that Girl In Coma is a fundamentally bad person or a gamergate metaphor or what not at all.

Coma girl was never the gooblygremlin MRA. That was, obviously, Sir Fedora.

>>47291906
And because if she kills enough beasts she'll get to have her life again and might even stop hunting beasts.

>>47291923
I don't know about full blown autist, but he's totally on the spectrum.

>>47291833
>Beasts are now the Freemen in Birth of a Nation
Can be, yeah, that's what I was just getting at. They're people who sneak into your house and wreck your shit and go "ABOOGABOOGA BE AFRAID WHITEY!"

>>47291835
Beasts literally would find it easier to feed from a member of the KKK than any of the KKK's victims. Stealing candy from a baby doesn't feed the Horror.
Also, it's the specific racism of America I'm talking about. Tim Wise gave a good speech on it.

>>47291844
But you're wrong. You're missing the point so hard that it literally frustrates me to read. The game has enough problems without people inflating this bullshit.

>>47291863
Then shut up about it since you clearly don't know anything about the game?

>>47291878
>>47291905
My post isn't incorrect. Heroes are harmful. More so than Beasts, even. Their entire schtick is whipping people into a frenzy. Yes, Beasts are bastards who need to spook people, but acting like they're all fucking child molester rapist SJW parodies is so fucking stupidly off the mark.

>>47291934
I know. But that's also my point, its an indicator that Heroes who are genuinely victims now lashing out at their oppressors fit just as well as Sir Katana.

>>47291976
>But you're wrong. You're missing the point so hard that it literally frustrates me to read. The game has enough problems without people inflating this bullshit.

No, you are wrong, on all counts.

>My post isn't incorrect. Heroes are harmful. More so than Beasts, even. Their entire schtick is whipping people into a frenzy. Yes, Beasts are bastards who need to spook people, but acting like they're all fucking child molester rapist SJW parodies is so fucking stupidly off the mark.

No, you are wrong, on all counts.

>>47292005
Well pretty much every Hero is a genuine victim, and all of them are genuine heroes.

>>47290153
I would like to see late Qing era China.

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>>47291976

Could it be that you're the one missing the point?

As Oliver Cromwell once said "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."

>>47292028
>>47292020
>No, you are wrong, on all counts.
Then fucking quote something from the books that proves me wrong.

>>47291976

>Heroes are harmful. More so than Beasts, even. Their entire schtick is whipping people into a frenzy.

...against beasts, and they only arise as the result of beasts doing stuff that justifies their response. Note also that beasts *don't* ever have to hurt a soul, they can be creepy voyeurs, so they really don't have an excuse.

If there's a hero, its, straight up, a beast's fault: the beast drove some poor bastard fucking insane with trauma, and now he can't ever be normal again.

>>47292068

What will that do? They've done it before and you just ignore it for your own idiotic narrative.

Just stop, you're a fucking discussion quagmire.

>>47291849
>Read the fucking book.
I did, nothing in it says Beasts can't be racist hatemongers or just join them to feast on fear.

>>47291976
>Beasts literally would find it easier to feed from a member of the KKK than any of the KKK's victims.
Not really.
> Stealing candy from a baby doesn't feed the Horror.
No, but burning crosses on peoples front yards and coming downhill on horseback in white cowls does.

>>47291597
There is no supernatural boot on the face of humanity, barring the Exarchs and the Seers of the Throne, and I doubt either would get along with Beasts.

>>47292068
>Then fucking quote something from the books that proves me wrong.
You have quoted nothing and thus require no quotes to contradict.

However, I will direct you to the Hunger section and the example Beasts, which include a man who torments his family, a school official who torments children, and a couple who torment (and possibly murder, is the implication I got) divers in a lake lured there by stories of sunken treasure that the Beasts themselves spread.

Then note that if these people didn't do these things, their nightmarish monster oversoul would rampage around the dreamscape and mentally and emotionally torture innocent people, to possible lifelong consequence.

Beasts are not the Other. Beasts are not a stand-in for the disenfranchised or the transgressive. Beasts have more power than everyone around them, including Heroes, and wield that power to bully, frighten, coerce, and physically wound to satisfy their own urges.

You can never make those the good guys. And you can never make the people who risk it all to take them out the bad ones, no matter the cost.

>>47291976

>They're people who sneak into your house and wreck your shit and go "ABOOGABOOGA BE AFRAID WHITEY!"

They're also the people that go into Black People's houses, brutally torture them and go "aboogabooga be afraid Blacky"

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>>47292068
oh yeah, heres your fucking quote dicklord.

>oh yeah, aspel is fucking faggot, and he should kill himself like the gaylord faggot he is

sit the fuck down

>>47292139

Beasts are supernaturally good at getting along with and posing as, well, supernaturals of the non demon variety.

Also... vampires? The Pure? The dominant powers of the three major splats all apply just fine.

>>47292195
If humans were the underdogs in WoD, humans would be hiding from vampires.

>>47292216
Not really. "The supernatural is hidden" is just part of the setting, you accept it for aesthetic purposes. If push came to shove, mankind can't do anything against vampires.

The reason vampires hide isn't that they're the underdogs, it's that hiding is easier and more profitable long-term. Why wage a war or run an empire when the mortals will do that themselves and you can, with relatively little effort, leech off it like the happy little parasite you are?

Parasites don't want to kill the host organism, even if they can.

>>47292269

See: Billie Piper's speech in the most recent Penny Dreadful episode.

>>47292269
>The reason vampires hide isn't that they're the underdogs, it's that hiding is easier and more profitable long-term. Why wage a war or run an empire when the mortals will do that themselves and you can, with relatively little effort, leech off it like the happy little parasite you are?
No, the reason vampires hide is because individually they're weak and humanity can take advantage of that.

If a vampire outs themselves, they'll get killed.

>Belief does not come into it. People can believe in the supernatural.
They can even believe in vampires. Knowledge is the key. So long as
the paranoid man does not suspect the bartender, the one he tells all
his crazy theories to, is Kindred, his beliefs do not matter.

and then eget everyone else killed

>>47292104
>they only arise as the result of beasts doing stuff that justifies their response
>If there's a hero, its, straight up, a beast's fault: the beast drove some poor bastard fucking insane with trauma, and now he can't ever be normal again.
No, they don't. Heroes are born that way, just like Beasts. Positive Heroes work to heal the Primordial Dream. Negative ones focus their hate and self-loathing on Beasts and encourage people to stroke their ego. In fact, "Beasts create Heroes!" was only true in the first draft, and something that was borderline impossible to accomplish. One way was dramatically failing a particular power, the other was dramatically failing (or was it exceptionally succeeding?) a roll of the Horror lashing out due to not being fed long enough, which is also basically impossible due to how the roll worked in the first place.

>>47292118
Never said they couldn't. In fact, I said they could, but that it would be unlikely.

>>47292161
I didn't say Beasts are good noble souls who do nothing wrong. Beast is literally "let's make a game where you play the monster" because apparently Matt forgot Vampire the Masquerade was a thing. But Heroes are the people who hunt for monsters to slay and create them when they aren't. They're the Hunter stereotype of the Hunter who goes too far. They're the Paladin that kills the good Orcs. Or at least the bad Heroes are. #NotAllHeroes is actually true now.

>>47292168
They can be, but like I said, you feed the Horror better when you knock down the king as opposed to the pauper.

>>47292269
>If push came to shove, mankind can't do anything against vampires.
They really could, easily.

Are you confusing Masquerade for Requiem or something?

>>47292195
>supernaturally good at getting along
They might have powers that synergise with other Supernaturals, but their entire schtick pisses off Prometheans and Changelings, Werewolves and Vampires would get pissy about them muscling in on their terrtiory/herd, and Mages would only probably care about them because of their Novelty, Mysteries, and ability to boost Supernal Magic.

>>47292216

Er... vampires use up, kill, enslave, rob, experiment upon, sacrifice, and occasionally mongle humans 24/7. The one thing that could be used as an example of humans oppressing vampires (The Cheiron Group) was foisted off as ayyylmaos. Humans largely can't do anything about it, because they don't even know vampires exist. They are definitely the underdogs in that respect.

Also, its less "hide" and more "camouflage," except in the case of yonder sewer dwelling nosferatu and so forth (yes, they still exist).

>>47292317
>They can be, but like I said, you feed the Horror better when you knock down the king as opposed to the pauper.
You don't, actually.
With multiple instances you get a +2 bonus, with one unique example you get +1. It even goes through this in the book, it's better to have a wide community to terrorize

>>47292314
>No, the reason vampires hide is because individually they're weak and humanity can take advantage of that.
That's not true, though. An individual vampire is terrifically powerful.

If a vampire outs themselves, they'll be killed, sure - by other vampires who don't want them to ruin a good gig.

>>47292317
>But Heroes are the people who hunt for monsters to slay and create them when they aren't. They're the Hunter stereotype of the Hunter who goes too far. They're the Paladin that kills the good Orcs. Or at least the bad Heroes are. #NotAllHeroes is actually true now.

Except there's no such thing as a good orc when it comes to Beasts.

>>47292332
Nope. Vampires outclass mortals in every way. Mortal society has no way to endure an actual effort on the vampire's end to destroy it.

>>47292348
>Er... vampires use up, kill, enslave, rob, experiment upon, sacrifice, and occasionally mongle humans 24/7.
12/7

Do you guys all play Twilight or something?

>>47292376
>That's not true, though. An individual vampire is terrifically powerful.
Not when they're in their magically enforced sleep
>If a vampire outs themselves, they'll be killed, sure - by other vampires who don't want them to ruin a good gig.
No, by humans who find vampires fantastically crippled during the daytime.

>>47292376
>Nope. Vampires outclass mortals in every way. Mortal society has no way to endure an actual effort on the vampire's end to destroy it.
Wait until daytime, set fire to their home.

>>47292314
Well, no, individually vampires are much stronger than individual humans. Numerically, vampires can mind control, ghoul, or turn an almost unlimited number of humans, with the only iron clad limit being how much you want to fucking irritate the ST and everyone else at the table. Remember, vampires can have any number of Manchurian Candidates who don't even have knowledge of ever having met the vampire.

>>47290153
>"Hey guys, out back near this pile of corpses"
>"There's a werewolf giving out free babies"
>"Are they like, Werewolf babies?"
>"Nah man, regular ones."

>>47292404
>Not when they're in their magically enforced sleep
They can wake up, not sleep to begin with, sleep under solid concrete that no one knows about, sleep while hidden, there are a thousand and one ways to address that trivially.

>No, by humans who find vampires fantastically crippled during the daytime.

Nah. Mano e mano, even a sluggish vampire will annihilate a mortal, even a small group of mortals.

The threat of humanity lies in the ability of civilization to come together and mobilize against them in some great coordinated effort. The reason this is not actually a threat is that the most powerful abilities Vampires have are abilities to hide themselves and subvert other people.

There can be no resistance to the vampire menace when any member of the resistance can be made a slave by force at literally any moment entirely unbeknownst to the rest of the resistance. The military can't act. Governments can't act.

All you can do is have guerrilla cells with little to no contact with one another who operate independently. But then they've lost all institutional power.

>>47292416
My home can't be located, or is fire-proof, or doesn't exist because I wanted to wage war on humans and thus snagged Protean 1.

>>47291976

>Can be, yeah, that's what I was just getting at. They're people who sneak into your house and wreck your shit and go "ABOOGABOOGA BE AFRAID WHITEY!"

And would ultimately lead to the furthering of horrific abuses against the post-Civil War black community, for no real purpose. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be any better than them being members of the KKK, or how doing this means that joining something like the KKK is verboten. It's almost like doing a metaphor about the marginalized fused with the tropes and ideas of a horror game is an idea rife with bad executions unless your name is Avery McDaldno or Clive Barker.

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>>47292383

You don't have to be awake at the time to be making use of people, debatably.

>>47292416
Then you only have to worry about the vampire's virtually unlimited stables of human+ guys, legions of manchurian candidates, and weirder things.

>>47292317

You're sort of conflating mechanics and fluff in your first bit there, they don't always see eye to eye.

I'm more inclined to see the fluff pieces and actual descriptions of how things work as the intended feel and world instead of the mechanics.

Example: The book tells us Melanie (coma girl) was assaulted and turned into a Hero. This is impossible, according to you.

THe book also gave us the teenager choked with a plastic bag that turned into a Hero later. Impossible according to you.

Another example that's sadly been removed from the rpg.net database:
In the developers own Actual Play thread there was a human brutalized and burned by a Beast. Matt decided to turn him into a Hero after the session. Impossible, according to you.

I'm much, MUCH more inclined to see the actual line designers playthrough as canon than whatever you think you know.

>>47292429
This guy gets it. The only thing stopping Vampires from utterly curbstomping and enslaving all of humanity is:

1. Setting Conceits
2. Potentially other supernaturals getting involved (Mages would kick Vampire ass, nuke the world, and then rewind time and stop the vampire ascension)
3. Sheer lack of desire. It doesn't profit vampires to do this. They CAN, but there's no point.

>>47291719
A poor white guy whose feels better that he isn't as poor as a black guy isn't going to start defending black people now that he's the Boogieman.

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>>47292383
Dominate (●●●●●): Vessel

>>47292472
>They can wake up, not sleep to begin with, sleep under solid concrete that no one knows about, sleep while hidden, there are a thousand and one ways to address that trivially.
Yes if they're omniscient, which no vampires are.
>Nah. Mano e mano, even a sluggish vampire will annihilate a mortal, even a small group of mortals.
Not really, vampires excel when they're built for combat but not all vampires are. And fire gets them all.
>The threat of humanity lies in the ability of civilization to come together and mobilize against them in some great coordinated effort. The reason this is not actually a threat is that the most powerful abilities Vampires have are abilities to hide themselves and subvert other people.
Vampires don't need to fear civilization as a whole. They don't give a shit if Alucard dies in Germany, they care if THEY die tomorrow at noon. Because they can't stay up every day, and no matter how hard they hide someone will find them eventually.

>>47292472
>My home can't be located, or is fire-proof, or doesn't exist because I wanted to wage war on humans and thus snagged Protean 1.
>The only way to harm the vampire is to damage or destroy the
ground she resides in; she takes one point of bashing damage for
each point of Structure that her haven loses. When she takes
her first point of lethal damage she emerges from the ground,
unable to hold herself in.

That was a nice try, now you're dead. Maybe the next vampire didn't read their own book either.

>>47292538
You know you lose all your powers when doing that?

>>47292500

Oh wait no, here it is.
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759812-Beast-The-Primordial-Roots-in-the-Community

>>47292562
The things that primarily prevent mortals from killing each other on regular basis are not their physical limitations but rather moral restrains and fear of retribution. Flesh puppet has neither of those.

>>47292601
rpg.net is a shithole

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>>47292432

>>47292539
>Yes if they're omniscient, which no vampires are.
No omniscience required. I am decidedly not omniscient and I can keep providing means of evasion.

>Not really, vampires excel when they're built for combat but not all vampires are. And fire gets them all.

Fire harms vampires less than it does humans if they're on the Path of the Ascendant. Otherwise, it's still less of a threat to vampires than it is to humans, since vampires have a multitude of ways to get away from fire. And even non-combat vampires can buff their stats with blood.

Also, every physical discipline, Obfuscate, and I believe Animalism can be learned by every vampire, they're not clan-locked.

>Vampires don't need to fear civilization as a whole. They don't give a shit if Alucard dies in Germany, they care if THEY die tomorrow at noon. Because they can't stay up every day, and no matter how hard they hide someone will find them eventually.

Your assumptions only work when vampires are resolved to stay hidden. The moment they go loud humanity is fucked.

>That was a nice try, now you're dead. Maybe the next vampire didn't read their own book either.
You should try reading again, sport. How are you finding the random tiny plot of land across the entire world I'm in at any given moment?

>>47292344
Beasts are actually great for Vampires if they can befriend one. They make good muscle and they can eat you eating other people. Even with Werewolves, Beasts can act as some sort of taxi service.

>>47292659
>The moment they go loud humanity is fucked.
If only because VALKYRIE is compromised to the core.

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hey, I'm a novice to Wod, I played MiT Old Wod a while ago but the gm wouldnt let anyone play anything but garou. Is that normal? or was he just being uptight. I think this game has the most potential when different changing breeds are together. I havent played for like 4 years though, so whats new?

>>47292637

I know, but it's where shits like Matt post.

>>47292629
Flesh puppet can just open fire or suicide bomb. That's one of the many things vampires can do: turn literally any random person into a lead-spraying explosive doomsday machine at any time. They can even do so indirectly, via ghouls with mind-control or the use of Devotions such as Chain of Command that let you wield Dominate through another person. Use it on random hobo, random hobo passes it along to random other person later, and there's no connection back to you.

>>47292659
>Your assumptions only work when vampires are resolved to stay hidden. The moment they go loud humanity is fucked.
Your assumptions only work with a combat optimized gangrel who's been taught Obfuscation and Dominate and is a member of the Ordo Dracul.

>>47292674
Everyone's useful to everyone.
Only problem is building those bridges.

Which is quite hard when the Beast has to contend with the Vampire's Beast. Or the Beast has to try and prove itself to the Pack.

>>47292710
No, that was just one example of a single low-XP vampire who could handle literally anything humanity might think to throw at them.

When you get into elders, or vampires working in concert, that's when you're really fucked.

>>47292538

Would Nevada-tan be a hero and a true human bean?

>>47291719
>why on earth would they be in the KKK?

Tyrants feed off Power. Seriously. They aren't called "Tyrants" because they're about nice hierarchy and institutions, they gain Satiety by climbing hierarchies and slapping down those who stand against them. "Getting an intern to work without pay" is an example of a moderate satiety level. Being a simply prickish boss is more than enough.

As always, Predators have it the easiest. Able bodied humans virtually always qualify for moderate Satiety. There is nothing about requirement: the victim must be a #shitlord, they just have to go be destructive dicks or better yet, murderers to people. No redeeming quality of the act necessary.

Finally, "a Nemesis must punish transgression, but her criteria are typically vague or subjective. The Beast isn’t interested in justice necessarily. Her view isn’t 'an eye for an eye' so much as 'an eye for a sidelong glance.'" Beating someone for looking at you funny is all it takes.

Read. The Fucking. MANUAL!

>>47292500
I'll need a source from the current Beast book on the guy choked with a plastic bag, as he's not in the Hero list. As for Sleeping Beauty, nowhere (in the current, and canon, book) does it say that she became a Hero because she was assaulted, only that she was comatose due to having been assaulted.

>>47292739
>No, that was just one example of a single low-XP vampire who could handle literally anything humanity might think to throw at them.
Except fire or sunlight or multiple people or crossbows or regular bows or just multiple guns.

The books have already said why the Masquerade exists, you're wrong about that, just as you're wrong about vampires being able to take over easily and avoid all harm.

>>47292769
>Except fire or sunlight or multiple people or crossbows or regular bows or just multiple guns.
Celerity interrupt, teleport away, Obfuscated. No damage, humans have no means of pursuit.

These are total basics of vampire design, dude.

>>47292139
The Seers might see Beasts as a tool of the Exarchs gone rogue, as they indirectly enforce the Lie but can oppose Seers. Beasts draw the attention of Sleepers away from the Supernal and towards fear. When you are concerned for your physical safety it is harder to focus on Supernal Truth. Try to focus on the mysteries of magic when you can't ignore the sound of scratching at your door.

>>47292807
Except for the fact that now all Mages can tell the Supernal from the Mundane at a glance.

>>47292601
Holy fuck those characters. I hope Matt understands those PCs are irredeemable monsters who need to be executed, one and all.

>Matt plays John Dawson (Ugallu (Predator). He owns a house in the neighborhood, where he takes people (children, often), whose families are lying to one another and otherwise toxic. He lets them freak out, then returns the kid a few days later, unharmed.

See, it's okay he kidnaps children and imprisons them, because he gives them back after! Unharmed, too, if you ignore the trauma of being kidnapped and imprisoned as a child.

>>47292690

Well, a lot of STs only like one splat to be played, they don't like monster mash. Me, I have always only monster mashed, except for Mage.

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>>47292837
>TOXIC

For fuck's sake

>>47292837
>Michelle's character is Mania Wallis (Makara Ravager). Mania prefers to feed by getting into relationships with women and then slowing wrecking their lives. They're free to walk at any point, of course (he doesn't stalk them if they break up with him). He teaches the lesson that some relationships are toxic and it's better to end them.
Flip the genders, and the internet would be up in arms.

>>47292884
>>47292865
And their villain is a guy who barely survived an attempted murder (being set on fire!) and was healed by it.

I honestly can't tell if they're aware they're the baddies.

>>47292850
I hate crossover games so much.

>>47292884
>Flip the gender

Of the player, you mean? Since a male Beast who moralistically wrecks women's lives for being too nice to him seems already pretty shitlordian.


>TOXIC
NOOOO not again

>>47292759

So you're saying that the example of a Hero, in the chapter about Heroes is...not a Hero and only the other example is?

You really are autistic if you need labels for everything. What's next? Dracula's not a vampire because his nametag doesn't say "Dracula, Vampire"?

>>47292884
>>47292865
>>47292922

.The next day, he waits until she leaves and trails her to a dive bar. He watches her sell the spyglass to a man, and then Tyler waits and tails him. This guy notices him, though, and leads him into an alley to warn him off. Tyler tells him to give back what he took, the man says he bought it and refuses to give it back. He pulls out a sap.

Okay, guy confronts him in an alley and won't ease off, so he draws a weapon. Makes sense..

>Tyler, in no mood to fuck around, uses his Dragonfire Atavism and sets the guy alight. He runs a little ways before he remembers to stop, drop, and roll, and Tyler picks up the bag and leaves. Unfortunately, his Horror isn't interested in this meal (player failed the Satiety roll and took the dramatic failure), so Tyler is even hungrier now. Fortunately he knows someone else to punish.

So naturally Tyler's first response to someone defending themselves is attempted murder in one of the worst ways to die, literally burnt alive, and then to relax after his killing he hunts down and disfigures a woman.

~our heroes~

>>47292960
I already flipped the PC genders. It's supposed to be a woman wrecking men's lives.

>>47293020

No, no they're the VICTIMS. Listen to Aspel, man. Beasts would never do that, clearly they're Heroes.

>>47292376
>Except there's no such thing as a good orc when it comes to Beasts.
Are you one of those "all vampires period need to be given a tan" people?
Also, there's an entire gameline based around mortals who kill vampires.

>>47292485
I didn't say it was better. Hell, people during the Civil Rights era argued Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were like that. I also didn't say that Beasts could never be in the KKK, just that they were *unlikely* to, and that Heroes would be more likely to. Heroes also thrive on organization and power and attention, while Beasts are creepy loners who trespass in the old mansion and get high with their crew, then go scare the tourists.

The whole "Beasts as marginalized group" thing is also pretty overexaggerated. Though at least some Beasts are the kind who torture people for doing bad things to minorities. I was just reading over Sin-You's story, which is somewhere beaten a neat vignette and cringey writing.

>>47292500
Melanie didn't become a Hero because the Horror assaulted her. Read page 202. The stuff in the playtest doesn't matter because that's not how it works anymore. Look at the other Heroes as well. Henry Rollins, Thaddeus, and Murder Granny are all basically oWoD Hunters.

>>47292526
>>47292429
>Numerically, vampires can mind control, ghoul, or turn an almost unlimited number of humans,
This is a stupid argument that's incredibly difficult to pull off. You can't just ghoul a whole country or anything equally as stupid. Vampires are rarely going to have a small army of ghouls at their disposal. Ghouling someone also isn't some surefire ironclad way of ensuring complete and total loyalty. That would require a lot of Conditioning that would generally make someone useless.

>>47292807
Awakening are rarely happybright. It's not uncommon, I believe, for Awakening to be brought on in part by fear.

>>47293001
Oh, no, she was a Hero. But she was a Hero before being rendered comatose.

>>47293048
ooh, got confused. Well, I guess it is... sort of charitable for a progressive woman to think men can be a toxic relationship with a woman?

Anyway Beasts piss me off significantly more now that I found all that out.

>>47293070
>Are you one of those "all vampires period need to be given a tan" people?
No. A majority of vampires are awful and deserve to die, but not all of them by virtue of being vampires. In many ways, vampires can be beneficial to humanity, and cooperative ones would be a positive force.

>Also, there's an entire gameline based around mortals who kill vampires.

Yes, in the default setting where vampires are trying to stay hidden and thus behaving under certain limitations.

>This is a stupid argument that's incredibly difficult to pull off.
It's really easy to pull off. And no, you don't ghoul an entire country; you ghoul a dozen or so, and teach them the right Disciplines, and they exponentially amplify your force.

Humans have no chance against vampires. The only saving grace on humanity's end is that vampires as a group don't want to openly rule and enslave and war, so sufficiently driven and lucky humans can pick individuals off.

>>47292485
Doing so is actually extremely easy, provided that the horror is directed mostly towards the PCs. Promethean can work for this.

>>47293070

Designers own ideas on how it's played don't matter. Gotcha.

Also, the amount of hoops you're jumping through to justify your point is starting to go into the "You can't prove Melanie hasn't murdered 17 other teenagers and buried them in the woods because she has a skill focus that could be construed as vaguely negative".

>>47293049
Oh jesus. It's even worse.

>Tyler left Dillon Markway, a small-time criminal and fence, for dead in an alley after setting him on fire. He was taken to the burn unit at Metro, and then Grace MacIntyre came and saw him (one of the nurses there knows her). She told him her usual spiel - she can heal him, and give him time to put things right. She performed the ritual, and now he's effectively immortal for a month (and then he'll die). He's decided that one of the things he's going to do is destroy Tyler Townsend, so he's tossing cinderblocks in the window and so forth, trying to rattle his cage.

> Meanwhile, the actual thief is a drug addict named Bianca Walker. Bianca just wanted a fix, and figured she could fence the spyglass to Dillon. She's since gained the Fugue Condition, and slips into a catatonic state whenever someone surprises her or she feels threatened. Since Mariana found her last time, and Tyler called in help, she's been taken to a psych unit and is in rehab.

So the bad guy only has a month to live, and his goal is to get revenge on the asshole who murdered him in a horrifically painful fashion for no reason whatsoever.

The thief is a drug addict already down on her luck, and he mind-broke her and disfigured her.

>>47293020

Honestly, why would anybody with a quarter of a brain try to portray the Beasts or Heroes as good guys? You don't need to finish the rulebook to come to the conclusion of, "Wow, everybody is an asshole."

Beasts are people who need to feed through awful means while the Heroes are people who have been fucked over by those awful means and resort to even more awful means to extract brutal vengeance.

Not every setting needs "good guys" and "bad guys" for fucks sake.

>>47293149
>they exponentially amplify your force.
But a Ghoul's vitae reservoir is tiny and can only be replenished by a Vampire who also spends willpower.

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>>47292756
I feel like you think I'm going "Beasts are noble souls who are all Dexter Morgan at their very worst!" which isn't what I'm saying.

>>47292837
>>47292884
>>47293020
>>47293049
The entire point of the game is to play a monster. I never said Beasts are totes victims guys. I just said that your impression of the kind of monsters that Beasts are--especially in the final version where it's been watered down--is wrong. Also, man, I'll defend the game for things it doesn't do, but fuck me that "we're not talking about them right now" really IS whiny and passive aggressive.

>>47293001
He's saying your reading of it is wrong. She wasn't made into a Hero by being attacked by the Horror.

>>47293185
>while the Heroes are people who have been fucked over by those awful means
The amount of people who haven't read the revision is truly saddening.

>>47293070
>Heroes also thrive on organization and power and attention

You mean like the Beasts who feed, as a vampire does on blood, by abusing authority and privilege over people? Tyrants are to "organization and power and attention," and lording it over people in an explicitly harmful way, what vampires are to blood.

>>47293192
The most powerful ghoul Disciplines are ones that do not require Vitae expenditure. Dominate 1 on a ghoul is terrifyingly powerful. Dominate 2 has a small cost, but it's within a ghoul's abilities.

>>47293185
I can't agree with that description of Heroes. It doesn't jive with the material. They don't resort to more awful means and their vengeance is just and necessary. Beasts are monsters, irredeemable monsters, and any steps to take them down are justified.

>>47293192
Ghouls don't need to spend vitae to benefit from the passive effects of physical disciplines.

>>47293241
Neat, I'm not 100% literate with Vampire.

>>47293241
Or various levels of the social Disciplines. Majesty 1 is free, Dominate 1 is free. Combine those and your ghoul largely has total control of any organization you put them in. Then the Physical Disciplines passively boost their attributes, and they can nab things like Obfuscate to stay safe.

I might have to blame my ST, but we ran a one shot with beast and liked it.

We played a bunch of newly awakened beasts on a coastal town with little to no major splat presence. We solved a murder mystery. He ran it like a mortal campaign, mostly sleuthing and trying to stop the killings for various reasons. The session was mostly find the 5 clues and confront the killer. Ended up breaking into the mayors office, pointing a gun at a wolf blooded, talking to a sea monster(that automatic good impression thing is really nice) before said sea monster asks for food and we bail, sneaking onto a yacht and stabbing a stabber.

One guy wanted to stop the killer because he shut down the port and he needed people on their boats to work( and scare people).

One guy wanted to stop the killer because the killer killed one of his human friends. That is a no no. She also fed off punishment, so win win.

One guy was a former monster hunter and the last thing he wanted was his buddies rolling into town and trying to root out all the evil. I don't think he spent a single Satiety during the session.

Yet again I blame my ST. When you have a good ST anything can be fun.

>>47293184

How depressing. Do either of those two have anything to do with being a Hero, btw? I noticed that similarly, Coma Girl seems to have properties that aren't 'normal' for a Hunter.

>>47293304
I doubt most Beast PCs will be as dickish as Matt's crew of fuckers.

>>47293236
>Beasts are monsters, irredeemable monsters, and any steps to take them down are justified.

What is staring into the abyss?
What is he who fights monsters take care unless he becomes the monster?

Beasts are fucked, but Heroes who belive the ends justify the means can become just as bad, if not worst then the monsters they hunt.

I'm 90% sure that "staring into the abyss" is the theme of Primordial.

>>47293306
>Do either of those two have anything to do with being a Hero, btw?
I haven't finished reading the play session so I don't know if either of them are/become Heroes. What I know so far is that Dillon is antagonizing Tyler.. for good reason.

>>47293327
Honestly, it's not a bad series of sessions. I just can't tell if Matt understands his PCs are the bad guys. He's defended Beast before.

If they understand they're horrible monsters that deserve death, okay, go wild. It can be fun to play the villain.

>>47293304
Playing Beast can be fun. Its problems are mostly in terms of fluff. The book is contradictory and clumsily written.

>>47293347
Pithy philosophical nonsense is not worth stopping to consider. Staring into the Abyss was always a nonsense musing; even if you do the exact same thing the monster does, so long as you do it to the monster you're better than them, because the monster deserved it.

>>47293201
That so many people keep talking about this without having read the final version--and some don't even seem to have read the original draft--is why I've got a headache today.

>>47293211
Beasts don't literally have a power that creates servants.

>>47293236
Heroes are repeatedly shown to be entitled assholes, to the point that Sleeping Beauty's write up explicitly mentions that she's unique among murdery Heroes in that she's not. Heroes have no reason to commit vengeance, because most of them have never encountered a Beast until they murdered one.

Literally the only example Hero that is looking for vengeance is Melanie, and even then she's not really looking for "Vengeance" so much as she is killing people who are similar to her attacker. Desmond Oakes shot some guy in the back, Thaddeus stabbed his coworker because it made him feel special, and Marian tried to murder her son and is so anti-supernatural that even the Long Night would say she needs to tone it down. Heroes are not created by Beasts.

More to the point, not every Beast needs to be a monster that murders the innocent. Batman is a legitimate Beast concept. He gets his jollies by scaring the shit out of people and showing them fear. Dexter Morgan does the same thing. In fact, in the original version of the Sin-You story (trucker leaves no tip, calls someone faggot, beat a hooker, and was just a jerk) he killed the trucker; in the current version he shows him horror visions of the victims of his abuses and cuts his cheek (like Dexter) before leaving. Yeah, you can be a jackass monster that just kills people for shits and giggles like everyone in the Playtest, but half the vampire characters in the setting are like that as well. For fucks sake vampires have blood orgies.

>>47293327
Not even Vampire PCs are that dickish. And I just got done mentioning the blood orgies.

>>47293304
Sounds fun. I want to do Beast, but I have no idea what to do with it beyond Monster of the Week.

>>47293306
Fuck, I meant 'normal' for a Hero.

>>47293379
>Pithy

It's not pithy if you are straight-up replacing the monster you killed.

>>47293379
>even if you do the exact same thing the monster does, so long as you do it to the monster you're better than them, because the monster deserved it.
I'm glad that this isn't pithy philosophical nonsense, for...whatever reason.

>>47293379
>even if you do the exact same thing the monster does, so long as you do it to the monster you're better than them, because the monster deserved it.
Except that's dumb. There's a reason vigilantism is a crime and the criminal justice system exists. Just because a black guy stole your wallet doesn't mean you go around killing every black guy.

>>47293397
I legitimately like most of the Heroes, aside from Henry Rollins, who's kind of boring. Marian and Sleeping Beauty are the most interesting, but I feel like I'd want to use Thaddeus for *something* because he's a good antagonist for being underestimated.

>>47293394
>Heroes are repeatedly shown to be entitled assholes, to the point that Sleeping Beauty's write up explicitly mentions that she's unique among murdery Heroes in that she's not. Heroes have no reason to commit vengeance, because most of them have never encountered a Beast until they murdered one.

And these terrible entitled assholes demonstrate it by hunting down and killing horrific monsters who corrupt and hurt everything they touch and all in their presence.

The book calls Heroes out, but it never justifies this calling-out. That's one of its major flaws. It's poorly-written drivel that tells you one thing but shows another.

And it's utterly impossible to side with the book if you have any sense of decency. You wouldn't swallow a book saying "Look at Henry. Henry never hurts anyone, volunteers at local charities, and donates a majority of his income to helping sick children in foreign countries. Henry is a total dick because of this."

>>47293428
It not being a quote from a philosophical treatise written by a philosopher is your 'whatever reason'. It's as philosophical as saying geese are dicks or having a broken leg hurts.

>>47293443
>There's a reason vigilantism is a crime and the criminal justice system exists.

That reason is that a government must maintain a monopoly of force in order to legitimize itself.

>Just because a black guy stole your wallet doesn't mean you go around killing every black guy.

That's true! However, if we lived in a world where all black guys without exception stole wallets and beat people up for kicks, you'd be completely justified in whipping up some lynch mobs. You'd be a hero.

Beasts are universally negatives on the human experience.

>>47293416
It's only replacing the monster if you target the innocent, too.

>>47293466
Ah, so it's just pithy nonsense. Gotcha.

Also, Marian is a flat-out serial killer, who targets all supernatural entities, in addition to mortals who spend too much time around them.

>>47293516
>Ah, so it's just pithy nonsense. Gotcha.
It is correct. If you want to label correct statements as pithy nonsense, be my guest. idgaf.

>>47293516
>Also, Marian is a flat-out serial killer, who targets all supernatural entities, in addition to mortals who spend too much time around them.

Reasonable. A majority - by a significant margin - of supernaturals are net negatives for humanity, and mortals that stay around them for long lengths of time are likely sympathetic or compromised.

>>47293547
Fascinating. It appears that you've already become the monster. Or are just an ITG. Probably the latter.

>>47293466
>>47293512
>And these terrible entitled assholes demonstrate it by hunting down and killing horrific monsters who corrupt and hurt everything they touch and all in their presence.
Except that's not true. For fucks sake Marian tried to murder her son for having a vampire girlfriend. Thaddeus stabbed his fucking coworker in the back, with zero awareness of any monstrous activities she did. Desmond MAYBE killed a guy who scared some hobos. Melanie can't find the Horror that attacked her, so she goes for others. Only one of the sample Heroes has a reason to kill Beasts other than "they give me nightmares".
Beasts are not universal negatives. Every Beast is not a murdering rapist cannibal. Heroes are not protecting humanity.

Also, vigilantism is a crime because even Americans believe the punishment should fit the crime, and more often than not, vigilantism leads to people getting revenge on the wrong person.

>It's only replacing the monster if you target the innocent, too.
Or you sweep them up in your crusade with your magical powers of persuasion, or just don't care about them, because you're a self-centered monster who sees himself as the hero and everyone else as pawns.

>>47293581
>hurr you want to murder the murderers??!! u r no batter!

>>47293617
>Except that's not true. For fucks sake Marian tried to murder her son for having a vampire girlfriend.
Understandable. A majority of vampires are horrible monsters that turn the people around them into compromised meat puppets.

>Thaddeus stabbed his fucking coworker in the back, with zero awareness of any monstrous activities she did

She was a Beast.

>Desmond MAYBE killed a guy who scared some hobos.

Good.

>Melanie can't find the Horror that attacked her, so she goes for others.

And they're all Horrors, so they all deserve to die.

The only moral Beast is one that commits suicide upon becoming a Beast. Any other is fair game.

>Also, vigilantism is a crime because even Americans believe the punishment should fit the crime, and more often than not, vigilantism leads to people getting revenge on the wrong person.

This is laughably untrue. Punishment is frequently wildly out of proportion with the crime; see the drug war and all non-violent offenses.

Vigilantism is a crime because governments must maintain monopoly of force. It's the most important part of what legitimizes a state: only the state can decide right and wrong, legal and illegal, and only the state is allowed the power of violence.

>>47293674
You've attempted to justify murder by association and proximity. I'm not sure what else to call that.

Anybody else find it odd that Obrimos, the Path that is stereotypically the most religious, is the Path least likely to give someone a good Exorcism?

We would not have these terrible Beast discussions if Leviathan was the official splat at in its place...

>>47293705
Leviathan, too, needs serious work.

>>47293674
>Understandable. A majority of Blacks are horrible monsters that steal electronics.
>She was a black woman
>The only moral Black is one that commits suicide. Any other is fair game.
Just pointing out the similarly ridiculousness.

>This is laughably untrue. Punishment is frequently wildly out of proportion with the crime; see the drug war and all non-violent offenses.
I will agree with you here. But we at least pretend.

Also, you sound like a real character.

>>47293702
>Implying fire doesn't exorcise.

>>47293705
We'd be having terrible M-preg discussions instead. Tell me why I should like Leviathan when it's a muddled mess of themes and has less focus than Beast?

A friend of mine wants to run a murder mystery over the summer and wants to include werewolves, the players will be mortal, but is there any advise you would give my ST when including werewolves? first edition Nwod btw.

>>47293739
My advice:

Don't play 1e
Use only Chronicles of Darkness core
Stat Werewolves using Dread Powers
Make up your own Werewolves, don't bother reading an entire book for a game you're not running

>>47293691
I've attempted nothing. The murder of all Beasts is justified. They're the single most irredeemable splat in the whole World of Darkness. Others can be okay on an individual level, but are still unacceptable as populations.

>>47293731
>Just pointing out the similarly ridiculousness.
The problem is that blacks are not Beasts, so your comparison fails. It is objectively incorrect that a majority of blacks are horrible monsters that steal electronics.

It is objectively true that a majority of supernaturals (and all Beasts) are harmful to humanity.

>I will agree with you here. But we at least pretend.

Pretending is worthless. It's not true that punishment fits the crime. Pretending it does is one of the ways those in power get away with things; it's more convenient to pretend rather than confront the truth.

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>>47293780
It's also objectively incorrect that all Beasts are horrible monsters who only exist to rape and kill. Hell, by your logic, shouldn't it be okay for a Beast to go around killing serial killers? I mean, you're clearly a fan of vigilantism, and think it's okay to kill bad guys. If a Beast only ever kills people who are harmful to humanity, isn't it wrong for a Hero to kill them? What about a Beast who only feeds from Family Dinner?

>>47293761
Why shouldn't we use 1e?

>>47293780
What about a Beast that only feeds through family dinner? As in, watching Woofs hunt, or mages chase down a mystery?

>>47294094
2e is better and fixes most of the problems I had with 1e's already great design, and adds a few subsystems that I really feel are good. It's also easier to run with just the corebook.

>>47293705
Leviathan is pretty shit, anon. So, we'd be bitching about its problems, because we even bitch about good splats.

>>47293731
Reminder that Leviathan's inclusion of mpreg brings it in line with all three major 2e splats. It's more canon appropriate than Beast.

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>>47294131
Like the chase system, and the clue system. Mm.

>>47294091
>It's also objectively incorrect that all Beasts are horrible monsters who only exist to rape and kill

I never said rape and kill. I said harmful to humanity. There is more to harm than nonconsensual sex and death.

> If a Beast only ever kills people who are harmful to humanity, isn't it wrong for a Hero to kill them?

No. You're gambling on the Horror never once acting out ever, and that's improbable in the extreme.

>What about a Beast who only feeds from Family Dinner?

The same problem as the above, with the added problem of the Beast now being tied to and approving of another supernatural's predation.

>>47294117
See above. This is gambling on the Horror never ever doing anything bad, and that's just not going to happen, and it has the added problem of reinforcing the monstrosity of other supernaturals. Werewolves are bad for humanity; they hunt and kill us, fuck with us, terrorize us. Sometimes even eat us.

Mages are similarly pretty awful people, though they're the least awful on average and most awful in potential. On the whole, we'd be better off with them gone.

>>47294228
Man, Hunter fans are hardcore. Even slightly unhinged.

>>47293702
I don't know about that.
Cast Ephemeral Enchantment on yourself, then bodily rip the Spirit out of the person.

Works on Ghosts, Spirits, Goetia and Angels.

>>47294228
>On the whole, we'd be better off with them gone.
Well of fucking course we would.
If only because that means no more Seers, which means no more Exarchs, which means no more Abyss, which means no more tyrannical-God-Kings keeping the world perpetually in shit because they don't like to share.

>>47294258
Probably works on Huntsmen too, if they'd move out into the world, without being forced into a physical shape.

>>47294244
I hate Hunter. Boring as fuck. Why would I want to be a normal person in the WoD?

I like werewolves, mostly. But that doesn't mean pretending werewolves - or any other supernaturals - aren't the bad guys for humanity.

>>47294274
Yes. The ultimate triumph and betterment of humanity comes through the total destruction of all supernaturals, save a few individuals of the various splats kept to use their powers in beneficial ways.

>>47294295
Then it'd probably work on Strix, as well.

So how would an Obrimos deal with an Idigam?

>>47294362
Run.
Just run.

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>>47290153
So what are the core rule books for WOD campaigns. I am super new to it but very interested in it and want to run it for people.

>>47294362
Excessive violence, otherwise fleeing. Like everyone else.

Seriously though, it depends on the Idigam in question.

>>47294370
Depends on your game line.
Do you like Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, Mummies, Demons, Changelings, or Prometheans (Frankenstein's monster) more?

>>47294328
For a non hunter fan, you sure seem to be onboard with supernatural genocide.

>>47294370
Minimum, all you need is the Chronicles of Darkness core book to be able to run just fine.

Like >>47294395 said, though, there are a bunch of different game lines that expand on the base game in a lot of ways. Pretty much all of them are super flavorful, and focus on a particular type of supernatural creature—though he left out Sin-Eaters (people who come back from the dead with ghosts riding along inside them to experience life again) and Hunters (normal folks who fight the other supernatural entities).

>>47294395
I have been playing Vampire bloodlines; so I want to play the pen and paper vampire. I am also interested in Hunter and Mage.

>>47294400
I am able to separate what I enjoy playing from the reality of the situation. The supernaturals in the WoD are the bad guys. The appeal of the game is in playing the bad guys. It's very fun!

But they're the bad guys.

>>47294228
>The same problem as the above, with the added problem of the Beast now being tied to and approving of another supernatural's predation.
Boy, it sure is dangerous that the Beast approves of those werewolves hunting down some spiritual beasties.

Also, by this logic, shouldn't we kill Heroes and Hunters because you're gambling on them never going off the reservation and becoming Slashers?

>>47294274
No Seers wouldn't mean no Exarchs. No Exarchs would mean no Seers.

>>47294258
>>47294295
>>47294362
This is why I gave the Wolves of God Ephemeral Enchantment instead of the 2 dot Spirit version.

>>47294458
Do you want to play in the Bloodlines universe?
Or in the later Chronicles of Darkness universe?
Former has metaplot and all those fancy Clans, latter is more of a toolbox without much metaplot but less and more flexible Clans.

If the former, get Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition.
If the later, get Vampire the Requiem 2nd Edition.

>>47294491
Requiem (CofD Vampire) is also closer to Bloodlines thematically. It's more about the people and local politics than Masquerade generally is.

>>47294485
>Boy, it sure is dangerous that the Beast approves of those werewolves hunting down some spiritual beasties.

And hunting and killing humans, because humans are prey.

>Also, by this logic, shouldn't we kill Heroes and Hunters because you're gambling on them never going off the reservation and becoming Slashers?
There's absolutely no indication I'm aware of that Heroes become Slashers. There's no guarantee Hunters become Slashers, either; really, Slashers are just weird. Unlike the Horror, which is there and which will feed.

But feel free to wipe out Slashers themselves. They're basically monsters.

>>47294483
Werewolves are just hunters, sometimes they target humans, but not nearly as often as humans target humans. Mages are humans, and thus have the human capacity for evil, but with cosmic powers. Vampires? Yeah, they're parasites. Beasts are pretty awful, too. But Changelings, Sin-eaters, and Prometheans? How are they the bad guys? Changelings are victims, more so than regular humans.

>>47294447
>>47294491
>>47294510
Ty for the help.

>>47294483
Not really. Maybe when you play it.

>>47294491
"Fancy".

>>47294370
>>47294458
Gonna level with you: there are two Vampire settings. One is very old and 90s cheeseball and one is hip and modern with cell phones and hippity hop. Then there are multiple versions of the two. But as a new player, you should only worry about choosing between Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition and Vampire: The Requiem Second Edition.

I'd personally choose VtR2e. Better mechanics, better thematics, and it doesn't have a really dumb metaplot. As >>47294510 says, it's actually closer in tone to VtM:B, aside from the cheesy tongue in cheek jokes and wacky humour.

>>47294528
Only one type of Werewolf regularly kills humans, and you've already admitted you're fine with murder if the murder victim "deserves it". You can't pick and choose. You even said earlier that it was okay if Heroes accidentally or on purpose kill innocent humans, because they're killing monsters that deserve it enough to justify killing anyone associated with them.

>>47294535
>But Changelings
Emotional parasites that drag dangerous eyes onto people.. when they're not the danger themselves.

>Sin-eaters

I'll readily admit I know absolutely nothing about Sin-Eaters. There is a possibility they're harmless; I doubt this, because that's not how WW/OPP write their lines, but it's possible.

>Prometheans

Disquiet and Wastelands.

>>47294551
>Not really. Maybe when you play it.
Yes really. The WoD supernaturals - with the possible exception of Sin-Eaters - are bad guys to humanity.

>Only one type of Werewolf regularly kills humans, and you've already admitted you're fine with murder if the murder victim "deserves it". You can't pick and choose. You even said earlier that it was okay if Heroes accidentally or on purpose kill innocent humans, because they're killing monsters that deserve it enough to justify killing anyone associated with them.

Werewolves do not hunt people who "deserve" it. Werewolves hunt whoever they want to because The Wolf Must Hunt. They'll go after the innocent no problem. Deliberately, not as collateral.

>>47294583
Geists are, essentially, dangerous (except that they are mechanically very strong). They deal a lot with ghosts, which might lead some to help ghosts do bad things, but the general premise is to either get the ghosts to move on or force them into the Underworld. They don't compulsively prey on humans.

And I thought magefags were obnoxious

>>47294583
Changelings don't really bring harm to others. They're constantly being hunted, and are constantly in danger themselves. They don't need to feed on emotions, and even if they do, it doesn't really cause any harm. Sin-eaters are just people who died and came back to life with a ghost that missed living. They pretty much are more on the beneficial side, since they deal with harmful ghosts. Prometheans disquiet only makes people dislike the Promethean. Their existence is tragic.

>>47294613
NOT dangerous. Shouldn't be typing this late at night.

>>47294630
This dude is basically a sociopath. Doesn't seem to acknowledge that supernaturals are people too, and, like people are as likely to be good as they are evil. Who the hell would view changelings as villains?

daily reminder that your local Guardians of the Veil are likely the reason the sleepers aren't insane

>>47294613
No passive detrimental impact on humanity? Their presence doesn't summon haunting specters or some sort of angry reaper? They don't have to watch themselves or flip out in obscene, ultra-destructive rages?

>>47294632
>Changelings don't really bring harm to others.
Changelings draw the attention of True Fae, Huntsman, and potentially other beasties, not to mention their own inhuman natures and the fall-out from their passion plays.

>Sin-eaters

See above. I'm willing to believe Sin-Eaters are fine if the answer to all of the above is no.

>Prometheans disquiet only makes people dislike the Promethean. Their existence is tragic.

I included Wastelands for a reason. Prometheans by nature mind-fuck people, and their Wastelands are destructive.

>>47294661
Supernaturals are people. That's irrelevant.

>>47294665
>tfw you're a humble Libertine and your cabal-mates are an Apostate and a Guardian
How fucked am I?

>>47294700
Not neccessarily at all.
Depends on the people.

Guardians are also the most loyal cabal-mates you could ever find.

>>47294583
>Yes really. The WoD supernaturals - with the possible exception of Sin-Eaters - are bad guys to humanity.
Not really. There are certain groups that are, but if you get the impression that anyone other than Vampire is "bad guys to humanity", you're reading the wrong books.

Also, only Iron Masters Hunt humans as a matter of course, and they also hunt things like Vampires and Mages and mobsters and serial killers and other criminals. They are after all looking for worthy prey. They're not just killing little old ladies.

>>47294613
No one but Vampires and maybe Beasts compulsively preys on humans. Beasts do tend to justify it as people who "deserve" punishment, and Vampires are rarely just jumping people and eating them.

Hell, Demons are explicitly on Humanity's side.

>>47294692
Your argument is that supernaturals can hurt people. People can hurt people. Heroes do hurt people.

If you're okay with a Hero who doesn't mind killing innocents to get at a Beast, why are you against a Werewolf that DOESN'T kill innocents (pretty sure doing so is against Harmony towards Spirit) and hunts down inhuman monsters?

>>47294735
Also of note, the Hunt explicitly does not have to end in death.

>>47294613
Also, if a Sin-Eater dies, that death's shunted onto some random passerby.

>>47294692
Nope. Theoretically, they're Geist (a super mega ultra ghost) could tell them to do bad things, but unlike Beast, it can't act on its own, and unlike Inferno, it can't assume direct control. Completely ignoring the Geist can degrade their morality equivalent, I suppose. The biggest drawback is of course the Sixth Sense problem - ghosts gravitate to Sin Eaters because Sin Eaters can always see them. >>47294747 this is basically the only way that Sin Eaters accidentally hurt people, and it takes so much work to drop one of them that it's unlikely to happen very often.

>>47294735
I consider changelings needing to feed on emotion as 'compulsive prey'. Is it as risky as vampire feeding? No. But it can still be damaging, and while changelings can choose not to do it, they MUST do it if they want to ever have glamour.

>>47294692
On Sin-eaters? Uhhh... No. They have absolutely ZERO downsides. They didn't even really have an antagonist other than regular ghosts. No rage mode, no big bad enemies. The closest are Kerbori, and they don't leave the underworld.

>>47294735
>Your argument is that supernaturals can hurt people.
Not can. Do, par for the course, as a normal part of their routine, many times throughout their life.

If we had a human population that routinely caused the same amount of harm as supernaturals, I'd support killing them, too.

(We do, btw. We call them "violent criminals", or "cartels", or "ISIS", or "the government of North Korea" or "Nazis" or "the KKK" or "Westboro Baptists" and they should all die for our betterment).

>If you're okay with a Hero who doesn't mind killing innocents to get at a Beast, why are you against a Werewolf that DOESN'T kill innocents (pretty sure doing so is against Harmony towards Spirit) and hunts down inhuman monsters?

That werewolf will kill innocents, eventually. That's just how werewolves work. Kuruth, Lunacy, the Sacred Hunt, turf wars, wheeling and dealing with spirits- they're harmful beings.

It's part of the pack-as-gang metaphor. Werewolves live on the fringes and cause harm to the world around them.

>>47294744
But does the vast majority of the time. Death is the norm. The Hunt is a murder.

>>47294747
Oh, so they are harmful after all.

>>47294784
>>47294793
What about >>47294747? That seems like a downside, and an indication that humans would be better off with Geists not being around. Drawing ghosts is similarly bad.

>>47294692
Humans draw the attention of true Fae and other beasties.
>>47294784
In 1e it didn't have downsides. Period. In 2e, currently, it's 1 willpower, which is nothing. The human will just feel a little tired.
Additionally, the fact is, humans kill waaaaay more humans than supernaturals. Not just talking slashers and heroes. Regular, old humans.

>>47294847
>Humans draw the attention of true Fae and other beasties.
Nowhere near the same extent, and we're discussing what's best for humanity- wiping humans out to protect humanity does not work for obvious reasons.

>>47294847
>Additionally, the fact is, humans kill waaaaay more humans than supernaturals. Not just talking slashers and heroes. Regular, old humans.
That's a matter of population sizes. Supernaturals are much more destructive per capita. No one is as destructive as humanity in aggregate because humanity outnumbers every supernatural put together by billions.

>>47294744
It also doesn't even have to be human, but he's focusing on the fact that it COULD be to go all Dick Cheney. He's Batman from Batman v Superman. If there's even a 1% chance you have to take it as an absolute certainty that any supernatural will kill you. STRIKE FIRST!

>>47294784
I'm actually giving Geists a way to take over in my homebrew.
Also, Changelings don't really super harm people. Currently they just make you a little drained. In 1e it literally did nothing to the harvested. They can also feed without harvesting emotion at all.

>>47294793
Sin-eaters constantly see how close the people around them are to death, constantly see ghosts, get bothered by ghosts, get bothered by their Geist, and can never die and instead lose sanity. There are also Abmortals, Sacrosanct, the Wretched, and The Vacant on top of powerful Ghosts and Unfettered Geists. Sin-eaters do have enemies beyond regular ghosts and Kerberoi.

>>47294819
You don't want to kill ISIS or the cartels, though. You want to kill all humans. If you were saying we should kill Supernaturals that do bad, that'd be one thing. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying all Mexicans could be members of a cartel, or all Muslims could be in ISIS. You're pulling a Trump, but you're not even saying that some of the Werewolves, some of them are good people.

>>47294819
It takes a lot of work, and I mean a looooooot, to kill a Sin-eater. They have more armor based powers than anyone, and can remove/ignore damage almost as easily as a werewolf. It's like this, if a Sin-eater dies from a car crash, someone else gets hit by a car, somewhere. The Sin-eater sees it happen. It's not the Sin-eater doing it, it's death itself balancing the scales. Either way, one person dies that day. From a grand scale, it doesn't matter who.

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>>47294819
>But does the vast majority of the time. Death is the norm. The Hunt is a murder.
Says you, shitposter-senpai.

It explicitly says ti does not have to, so your insistence is retarded, 'speically when compounded with the whole most were's don't target humans because it's not a good hunt at all.

But I'm sure you'll try and twist out of this, so don't expect another reply.


That goes for the rest of you, too. We can see this shithead has his head up his ass and will try to twist anything to protect his pathetic delusions. There's no conversation to be had there. Ignore the faggot.

>>47294866
Buddy, how do you think they became changelings in the first place?

>>47292834
Not every tool has to be supernal.
War is s tool of thr Exarchs but yets it gives off no magical glow.

>>47294819
So who would you not kill?

>>47294899
>You want to kill all humans.
No, I do not. Boy, that was an easy exchange.

>>47294903
Says everything in the Werewolf book, retarded-weeb-kun. If you read Werewolf and come away thinking the Hunt is not focused on killing, you're beyond help. You're literally too stupid to function.

>>47294940
Bad luck, yes. It's not their fault. They're still bad for humanity.

>>47294971
99.9% of humanity. Most people are fine and harmless.

>>47293192
Spend willpower is only at the ghouls creation. Up keep is vitae only.

>>47294982
>No, I do not. Boy, that was an easy exchange.
I don't know why I'd have expected you to understand metaphors.

If you were saying we should kill Supernaturals that do bad, that'd be one thing. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying all Mexicans could be members of a cartel, or all Muslims could be in ISIS. You're pulling a Trump, but you're not even saying that some of the Werewolves, some of them are good people.

Also, if you come away from Werewolf thinking that Werewolves are just killing mere mortals willy nilly, YOU didn't read it.

>>47294991

Not me, I'm dangerous

>>47295011
Please, just ignore Shitposter-Senpai. If you reply, he can't help himself. He'll continue to spew ignorance. Save him from himself. Ignore, don't reply.

>>47294982
If there were no changelings... The true Fae would come for people. Instead of saying changelings are bad for humanity, what you should say is that the Fae are bad for humanity. If all the Fae got destroyed, then the changelings bring no harm.

>>47293394
>Sounds fun. I want to do Beast, but I have no idea what to do with it beyond Monster of the Week.

Well, what we do is start with monster of the week until we get a handle on our social dynamic. Start at a mortal campaign power level, with lesser splats showing up at the start(wolf blooded, ghouls, those not mage guys, etc) and mostly mortals. Remember:

You are a serial killer that doesn't need to kill people. I heavily recommend everyone have a "Great Feast" Aspiration; their signature feeding style that they spend all their free time working towards.Run it like the investigation system.

For example, we had a kraken who fed on ruin. His great work was crashing a yacht a millionaire bought with public funds. clue one was figuring out when they were going to use the damn thing, clue two was learning were they were going to take it. Then it was a matter of preparing life rafts(clue 3), nearby emergency crews(clue 4) and convincing the millionaire that "why yes the stars look wonderful out at sea at night. Especially at this spot. Hanged mans cove? Just a legend. Nothing to be scared of, nothing to loose."(clue 5)

When all the "clues" are assembled, run the scene were he gets to be all spooky, and for once in the millionaires life he might think "maybe I should make better life decisions then going boating at night with a boat I didn't pay for?" Fulfill the great feast aspiration and gain a 7-14 die pool, depending on how far you are willing to go.

Once you have an outline for everyones "great feasts" ruin their plans by having people interfere, them having to solve problems or worse; work together. The great feast makes a beast feel like the center of the world, and gives them something to do besides chilling with other splats.

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>>47295011
Of course there are good werewolves. Some of them are gay!

>>47295011
>I don't know why I'd have expected you to understand metaphors.

I understand metaphors. You were just wrong.

>If you were saying we should kill Supernaturals that do bad, that'd be one thing. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying all Mexicans could be members of a cartel, or all Muslims could be in ISIS. You're pulling a Trump, but you're not even saying that some of the Werewolves, some of them are good people.

No, that's not what I'm saying. This is an example of you being wrong. I am saying supernaturals are themselves the cartels, or ISIS, not potential members of it. Supernaturals are inherently more dangerous and destructive than normal people.

>Also, if you come away from Werewolf thinking that Werewolves are just killing mere mortals willy nilly, YOU didn't read it.

"Willy nilly"? No. There's lots of pomp and ceremony and ritual involved in the Sacred Hunts. It's only willy nilly when they rage out.

>>47295012
I'm sure.

>>47295047
The True Fae should also be wiped out, yes. They're included in "all supernaturals".

>>47295036
Hi there, weeb-kun. What's it like reading a book that repeatedly reinforces murderous, violent hunts and thinking "hmm, yeah, death is rare.".

I'm curious what being born a potato's like.

>>47295069
People with combat training are inherently more dangerous than normal people. People who own a gun are inherently more destructive.

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>>47295036
I'm going back to playing Murdered: SOUL SUSPECT. It's a great WoD inspiration game. Although it's basically a visual novel with shitty combat-stealth sections.

>>47295054
See, that's the other thing. I feel like any plot is going to get sidelined by people Feeding, and Feeding is a pretty solitary action. Even some of the examples of Feeding in the book involve the Beasts going off on their own and then coming back together afterwards.

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>>47295088
That game...it's. Ok, to start, but it goes to shit in the last hour or so, and it's got a total playtime of around 7 hours, just as a head's up.

>>47295085
Please, PLEASE, ignore Shitposter-Senpai. It's better for everyone.

>>47295085
Yes, they are more dangerous. Unlike supernaturals, they don't draw in threats, poison the land around them, routinely make a habit of hunting down other people, feed on them, torment them, or, really, do anything bad in general.

They are not more destructive, however, than the norm.

>>47295111
I'm just getting to the Judgement House. It's one of those games where the story is okay, and the interactivity makes it a little better than a similar caliber movie, while also bringing it down. The 'combat' sequences are really tacked on and dumb. Would have been better if it was more like the Telltale games

>>47295088
>>47295111
yeah the game is not great but its a really cool concept.
Another great WoD type game is Condemned. Its like if a VASCU agent discovered an Unchained or Angel cult while hunting a Slasher

>>47295137
Yeah, that's around where the story takes a straight nosedive. Glad you've enjoyed it thus far, though.

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>>47295148
>>47295152
Yeah. It's not riveting or anything, but it's fun, and well worth the pennies I paid for it. The Square Enix bundle is the best deal I've gotten. Tomb Raider 2013, Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris, DmC, Soul Suspect, Life is Strange episode 1, Hitman Absolution, and I think every previous Tomb Raider game. Just having a game in a bundle that's "neat" is good, but it's extra special when that game has the kind of WoD-y urban fantasy feel that is so hard to find.

Ten bucks for just a whole bunch of games that are "good" is one of those feelings that's great. Better than one game that's "great" for like 60$.

>>47295239
As an aside, I keep coming up to, like, fences and going "how am I supposed to get around this?" before remembering that "oh, right, I'm a fucking ghost".

>>47294258
It makes the thing you cast it on solid to entities in Twilight. A Ghost or Spirit possessing someone probably isn't going to have a little hook you can grab to yank them out
It'd be equivalent to ripping their heart out, I imagine.

>>47295251
that part is pretty cool they just turn on fucking no clip. But the arbitrary consecrated grounds thing is kinda dumb but they have to limit you somehow.

>>47295274
I actually like that, and it's similar to how I handle it for actual WoD stuff. It might sound familiar to thread regulars, but I had it in my one successful Geist game that Ghosts in Twilight are walking through places where there isn't a wall. The Sin-eaters one all were Reverse Possessed and failed the Perception-3 roll to pay attention to things when chasing a ghost in Twilight and they ended up smacking into the newly renovated walls that were what was stirring up the ghost in the first place. That section of wall had no Twilight equivalent.

So while I love being able to walk through walls, the fact that some places have "ghosts" of old houses is really neato to me. But I'm predisposed to liking something when it's similar to an idea I had.

I will say that the "all houses are Consecrated because this is Salem" part is silly. Something closer to the Dresden Files explanation would have felt more appropriate to me.

>>47294700
Guardians full on expect that if they are going after a member of a cabal that has a guardian in it, they will be fighting said guardian to the death as much as any other member of said cabal. Guardians are actually frowned on for reporting their own cabalmates as well.

>>47294370
I think most 2nd editions have the general rules stated in them now so CofD is optional just an optional addon in case you wanna play a Mortal's game with the God Machine.

>>47295239
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of some of the gameplay(the combat in particular), but I dug the story and investigations.

>>47295417
The character design is also super try ard as well.
Hes such a cool ass rebel he has tats but he dresses like a 1930s detective. Its a clash of styles that comes off as cringy. Though the bullet holes in his chest are cool though they would have been more horrific if they were just wounds that never heal.

>>47295535
The Demon sections are tacked on and stupid, and more frustrating than is necessary. It also adds very little to the story. I do love the investigations, although there seems to be no real incentive to guess right the first time. You lose a Badge if you fail, and so you don't get a perfect score, but as far as I'm aware so far there's no real reason to get perfects.

>>47295586
I like Ronan's Hot Topic hipster version of a pulp detective, with his wallet chain and prison tats.
Although most of the ghosts seem like they're all pilgrims, even the one from the 20s.

I wish there were more side investigations to help people pass on, although I get the feeling that I keep asking the wrong questions and missing out on the option to help people pass. Unless it's just the girl in the laundry room and the woman who died in a steamer crash.

>>47295631
>I like Ronan's Hot Topic hipster version of a pulp detective, with his wallet chain and prison tats.
He just looks like an asshole. Like if you saw a cop IRL questioning you for murder look like that you would just go "Are you fucking serious right now?"

>>47295586
Really? I really like the modern take on the noir detective.

>>47295725
Yeah, but I like it. It's that Irish thug-cop look. Like, you know he's a cop, but you also know that he'll probably break a chair over someone to get information.

>>47291976
Sooooooo, what I'm getting from all of these posts is that, despite all the outcry and wailing and gnashing and writers butthurt about being called out for shit writing, Beast still came out crappy, muddled, and confusing.
Look, I know it's morally wrong of me, a WoD fan, to sit here looking for things in CoD to point at and laugh.
But Onyx Path really makes it a fucking target rich environment.

>>47295803
>morally wrong

I would say ironic, since 99% of oWoD is pure shit

>>47295803
But almost all of oWoD is crappy, muddled, and confusing. At least Beast's bad mechanics are playable, even if they don't encourage the right tone.

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I actually liked that ending. Although I spent like an hour on the last side mission because I kept going all the way around town without realizing there was a hole in the wall for me to walk through.

If it had been more Telltaley, the ending would have been more interesting, as opposed to a very simple timed maze and one puzzle before a long cutscene. Still, super WoDy. I need more WoD games.

>>47296286
Like I said check this out>>47295148

If you like more simple action games check out Clive Barkers Jericho. Its essentially a mix of VALKYRIE Hunter and a combat heavy game of Mage.
Clive Barkers Undying is also pretty good and is more of a classical shooter like Doom or Quake.

Eternal Darkness on the gamecube is a game I loved and its more Cthulu inspired then WoD but still a great survival horror game. A cool gimmick is that all the levels are a character reading passages from a book and the character plays out the chapters. So each level is a separate character in a separate point in time with their own stats and equipment.

>>47296366
I had Condemned back before my Xbox broke. It was pretty fun. Gross and dingey and the combat was brutal. I vaguely recall the plot and reading the summary of it, and if I remember right, either that or the sequel is pretty God-Machine Chronicley.

>>47296402
>either that or the sequel is pretty God-Machine Chronicley.
Basically there is a cult that worships these weird mechanical demons that spread violence by using brainwashing sound machines. Thats why it reminds me of Demon/God Machine.
Also the main character is a Psychic Detective which is just VASCU.

Reading the Washington DC actual play from Dave

Is the Consilium voting system he described from a book or made up for the game?

>>47297496
I think thats a DC thing.

Name my Awakened metal band.

>>47297721
HEAVY SLEEPERS!!!!

>>47297721
Mystery Play.

>>47297721
PYRAMID OF IRON!!!

>>47297721
The Legacy Thieves

>>47297721
Beholden to Stygia

>>47297721
Rude Awakening

>>47297721
Thralls of Theban

>>47297721
Act of Hubris

>>47297715
I'm still using it

>>47297871
Not trying so say to do otherwise. Do what feels right for you.

>>47297811
Speaking of Theban, we have new candidates for Theban related fuckery in the Pack book.

>>47297941
We DOOoo!?!?

>>47297941
Wait what?

>>47297721
Watcher at the Sidereal Wastes

>>47298020
That sounds like name of an Aeon.

For some reason I can see a Forces Legacy of Moros that has Attainments based on Heavy Metal being quite cool. My guess is that Attainments would have primary Forces, secondary Matter (with optional Death) and probably some combination of Dexterity, Stamina and Presence.

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>>47290153
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18gBqOC5mhg8R2MHYOSyLAr36N_UVua2geISxKl8yZqU/edit#
Whatever happened with this thing?

>>47298161
>Reverberations of the Beasts Cry
>Contrary to popular belief, everything starts with death. The death cry of a monster that was more metal than flesh birthed the world, and its echoes resonate with music that accompanies the Legacy's rituals.

I'm really glad that I don't write for OP.

>>47298665
Why, that description is awesome. One of the Attainments needs to be "Summon a steed of pure Metal for you do ride on."

>>47298784
Thanks. If I had actually read the new spell rules, you'd get some attainments. Have this instead:

>Organization: Reverberations exist only in small numbers, but nevertheless, most of them are form cabals or bands with other members of the Legacy. However, some Reverberations seek out like-minded but Sleeping musicians, hoping to open their eyes to the seven Metal Truths.

>Suggested oblations: Performing fast, intense and/or loud music, composing, writing lyrics or poems, profaning holy objects (possible only for an off-shoot of the Legacy proper), sacrificing one's blood.

Wait Seers of the Throne Iron Pyramid is like the Tal'darim Chain of Ascencion?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ih3UIllq7Xk

>>47298878
Noice. I get the feeling that these guys would most likely be Free Council, thought I'm not sure what the rest of the Pentacle Orders would think of them.

>>47298161
I made a Fate/Death/minor Forces Moros Legacy based around music for a player of mine once - not Metal specifically, though his character was a metal guitarist. Game never took off but I should think about converting it to 2e.

Their attainments let them summon and control ghosts from the Underworld and even anchor them temporarily by writing and playing songs dedicated specifically to the shades they were summoning.

>>47298958
Dead men's shoes. Neither OPP nor Blizzard invented it.

>>47298972
I like to think that while the Adamantine Arrow does not endorse this Legacy officially, every Arrow knows someone who can and will induct you into it if you ask nicely.

>Legacy based on Heavy Metal
Neat.
Seems like the kind of thing that would definitely be Free Council, because they're the ones who are most likely to be into stuff springing from Sleeper culture, as opposed to ancient traditions that could be bullshitted as Atlantean. I want to remake the Whipping Boys myself. Or maybe some other masochist punchwizard Legacy based on a similar idea.

What path would be best for a legacy thst create monuments that allows you to experience someones memories from the past. Example you experience American Revolution in the eyes of Washington or the British and you experience everything he went through. Your philosophy is words won't teach experience will.

>>47299214
Moros or Acanthus methinks.

>>47299256
I dont see how death or matter will help making this

>>47299313
Well, the monuments seem quite Matter-y to me, and Moros are all about the past and transformative experiences.

>>47299214
There already is one.
Look up The Stone Scribes in Legacies - The Sublime.

>>47299313
You're literally looking through the experiences of Dead people. Moros with Time or Acanthus with Death. They create magical Animus machines

>>47299463
Cant you do that shit with mind?

>>47297966
>>47297994
Yes. The Lodge of Apollo are also called Thebans.

A bit of google shows Apollo was very tied to Thebes, his oldest temple was there, and according to myth he killed the king of Thebes and his sons.

The Lodge's Apollo is some sort of soul-eating, life-draining entity, too.

Why does Mage give me vibes of Discworld?

>>47300029
I have no clue man, I really can't think of a single good point of convergence between them.

>>47300048
Maybe it's the fact that using too much magic summons horrible things that shouldn't be.

If, about ten years from now, someone makes Beast 2nd edition, how would you like it to be different?

>>47293020
At that point like half of my gaming group would stand up, leave and never come back to storyteller's games anymore.

>>47293020
That kinda sounds like a VtR game with asshole players gone horribly wrong.

>>47300082
But settings like that are a dime a dozen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSDVK_snQIs
This seems like the type of song you could use to illustrate a Changeling Player confronting their Fetch.

So DavidH previewed one of his Beast-focused Hunter groups:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/hunter-the-vigil/892270-conspiracy-the-merrick-institute

>>47300964

Chuuni as fuck

>>47300964
>Captured and raised by a secret government organization that wants to use Beasts as weapons
>Overthrew their captors and now they're fighting the good fight while on the run from THE MAN
Sounds like Deviant.

>>47301098

What better weapon to kill the Otherkin than with the Chuunibuyo?

In all seriousness though, I dig it. I love that it's a WoD take on Nightmare on Elm Street III: Dream Warriors, and the Changeling and Deviant crossover potential makes it even better. It goes without saying that I like them as Beast antagonists way more than Heroes. They're sympathetic, they're a threat, and they're not going to back down when a Beast pulls its Hunter Distraction Tactic on them.

>>47301232
Changeling with poor clarity probably see Beast as they supposed to be - dragons, monsters, horrors.

>>47300964
What next, a group of Begotten who have been re-purposed into weapons by the Seers?

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>>47301716
>>47301716
>>47301716

>>47293184
Those are kinda characters I used to play as an edgy teen. Cool dudes strolling around town, inflicting grotesquely disproportionate retribution on small-time criminals that looked at me funny.

>>47300212
The better question is "what would you want to stay the same?"