Pathfinder General

>>47239931
Ethergaunts, fuck that noise and fuck you

>>47239931
First for deeper elsbeth lewds when

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Which class can make the best use of stupidly high Charisma? The GM for a kingdom-building game is allowing custom race rules up to 40 RP, and I want to max out Charisma to be a ruler.

Can an oracle (AC, Focused Trance) or a sorcerer (better save-or-lose spells) make better use of extremely high Charisma?

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>>47240008
They already exist.

>>47240022
Max out Int and take the Orator feat instead, then be a wizard.

>>47240101
But i want to see elsbeth have sex in the missionary position for the sole purpose of procreation

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>>47239931

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>>47240022

Caveat: 1st-level start.

>>47240127

The orator does not influence kingdom-building rules in any way.

>>47240141
That face is fucked up

>>47240022
Sorc would be my go to, oracle is not bad either, any cha based full caster works really.

>>47240022

Sorcerer, especially human, probably has the advantage in versatility, but the Oracle can get pretty hilarious, such as the Heavens Oracle making your GM hate color spray far after it normally becomes irrelevant.

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Don't lie to me pfg, which mods are you running with in PF? (3pp and shit)

>>47240312
None. Our GM is scared of trying something that isn't 1st party. In his defense, he's a first time GM.

>>47240312
I play 3.p, which in practice means "3.5 with some pathfinder and DSP's stuff as well."

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>>47240022
>>47240164
Ask if a lot of things are going to be immune to mind-affecting spells. If you think you can get away with it, rebuild/add to Kitsune, take the Arcane Bloodline, pump CHA into oblivion, grab the Kitsune FCB, then pour your focus onto Enchantment DCs. Proceed to mindrape anything that opposes the party. Bonus points if you ascend to some form of divinity during the campaign. Don't forget, at level 13 trade your bloodline feat for that new sorcerer mutation that lets you reduce enemy SR by your CHA mod, because if your CHA really is going to be that crazy you might as well have the ability to tell something with spell resistance to become your bitch a minimum of once per day.

>>47240022
so 40 rp that ends up with a
+12 to charisma going all into it exclusively?
So assuming you get an 18into cha that is a 30 cha out the gate.

>>47240247
>>tfw oracle has some many good revelations from different mysteries
>>no 1pp way of picking and choosing from different mysteries

>>47240312
Our current party and campaign is using PoW sprinkled in and out. One of my characters planned for a future game is a Wilder that I just got the okay for. They don't know anything about SoP or Pact Magic, but they trust me to be the 3pp guy, so I plan on using one of those eventually at some point to ease them into it.

>>47240312
The weapon style quick reference page.

>>47240332

Is there any way to play a heavily enchantment-focused character that is also a good person? It seems like it's a school of magic that tends towards dickery if not outright evil.

>>47240411
Don't be a dick with your magic and mind rape people unless you need to for self/party defense?

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>>47240411
Mind rape evil people into doing good.

>>47240356
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-revelation

If your UMD skill is good enough, you can take a revelation from a different mystery.

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>>47240458

But that's why we have Diplomancers.

>>47240411
make people fall asleep

>>47240327
I'm surprised people aren't shouting at you about him being a shit DM for not using 3pp.

>>47240411
Sleep, Deep slumber, that kind of stuff.

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>>47239931
How do I run pic related?

>>47240575
What, a game with the same kind of theme(?) as that picture, or whatever that monster is?

>>47240575
Not with PF, probably CoC or Cthulutech

>>47240547
Honestly, I am too. It still leaves grease>net>all the AoOs as a valid strategy though, so I'm happyish. sort of, probably. I think.

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>>47240575

>>47240411
Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Irresistable Dance, Sleep, Irresistible Dance. Basically spells that are either are indirect or physical in nature

>>47240135
>thinking wizards have time to bother with procreation

>>47240525
Better.
Claim victory for people falling asleep.
Cast some spells to make commoners, minor nobles fall asleep at certain times. Cast other spells to stop people from sleeping for days. Claim that you are the sole incarnation of slumber, and only your benevolence allows people to sleep while you still live.

All nations of the world will unite to destroy you, forcing a completely LG society.
GG

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The daemons simultaneously hit all our major cities in a single night, assassinating our leaders and destroying major infrastructure

Portals to the screaming rifts of the Lower Realms have been opening up everywhere, and our populace is being decimated

I have taken up the blade and armor to fight back but fear their numbers are now too great, too much

I have taken up the mantle of this crown and it is a heavy burden I wear, the mortal races shall rise again

>>47241099
What happened to his torso? It looks too short for either his legs or his arms.

>>47241159
The angels have hewn me apart and stitched into a superior specimen

>>47241159
The skull is not a codpiece, it's on his stomach.

>>47241185
Are you sure? It looks like his leggings start right next to the skull, since the pieces don't look like they connect under the red cloth

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>>47241229
I think his hips start somewhere around here. The cloth probably covers where his junk would be.

>>47241229
Yeah,that's what threw me too. The height of the leggings if they're supposed to reach his hips.

>>47241159
>>47241185
>>47241229
It is a bit anatomically incorrect even if you visualize his legs/torso as being correctly proportioned underneath everything - he just winds up having an overlarge head and set of arms.

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>>47241099
Tonight was the first night of my temptation

She has come

She has shown me a vision of the burning future

The spawn I have implanted in her will become great warriors and ensure our martial might

>>47241290
I assume it's one of those leggings which goes up to like just under the ribs. Probably not that functional, but fancy looking.

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>>47241318
>>47241099
You okay, man?

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Anybody play a PsyArm before?
How does melee only/ranged only weapon enchantments function in your panoply?

>>47241467
If you're making a ranged attack the ranged stuff works. If you distill it, the melee stuff works.

>>47241467
Where is PsyArm on d20pfsrd? I can't find it.

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>>47241099
>>47241318
>>47241409
Tonight was the third night of my temptation

She has come

She has shown me a vision of a broken and shattered moon

The writhing things I can feel in her womb that are my children will become great mages and ensure our magic might

>>47240411
I've got a theory about this, as well as why enchantment based sorcerers keep popping up.
I want you to think back for what legendary kings and lords are typically renowned to have.
>Commanding presence
>Undying loyalty from their vassals
>Final Hour efforts from said vassals
>Wisdom that turns out to be fairly simple shit

Play a runaway prince (or princess, I'm not going to judge) that's horrified of what they can do. Bonus points for another member of the party playing an accidentally mindraped assassin. Otherwise, be a jolly, basically good if a little green noble.
tl;dr Heroism is an enchantment spell.

>>47240458
>zelenin
>good

JIMENEZ DID NOTHING WRONG

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>>47241544
You have to wake up, man. It's just a dream! It's not real, do you hear me? You're trapped in a nightmare and you have to wake up!

Please. We need you here, in the waking world.

>>47241099
>>47241318
>>47241544
Never go full roleplay

>>47241318
>>47241544
What happened to the second night of your temptation?

>>47241679
They told me you would say that, but liberate tuteme ex inferis

>>47240575
What the fuck is pic related?

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So /pfg/, how would I run a DOOM campaign?

Just have one player (techslinger), give him mythic, give him a ton of high tech guns, and put him up against demons with cybernetics and high tech weaponry?

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>mfw it finally hits me that only the flat damage part of the Warlock's Mystic Bolts actually scales
>mfw no talents besides the arcane strike one in order to fix it
>mfw it will probably never get anything from any new books, because it's an archetype and not a standalone class

Oh, now I get it. I guess I should be grateful my GM would probably be willing to handwave a magic item to unfuck this.

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So long as good/evil enchanters are being mentioned, I wanted to ask for some advice on a build. Basically, should I keep advancing my current classes, or PrC into the Enchanting Courtesan?

Build is a diplomancing Negotiator Bard / Cleric of Ardad Lili for lots of seduction and conversion/corruption shenanigans. Gestalt game, level 10. Domains are Scalykind and the Sin inquisition.

So, should I keep pumping my current features, or is it worth getting into the courtesan, and if so, on which side?

>>47241875
I warned you, bro. I warned you. But it just keeps happening.

>>47241816
...-]I[- ACCESSING SECOND NIGHT MEMORIES - NIGHT OF BLACK PITCH
..-]I[- SYSTEM IS ENCOUNTERING CRANIAL PUTRESCENCE
..-]I[- PURGE WITH FIRE?

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>>47241978
Damn, I guess I haven't customized my commands yet.
..-]I[- SET DEFAULT COMMAND RESPONSE
..-]I[- IF 'PURGE WITH FIRE' THEN 'YES'

Efficiency is next to godliness

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>mfw I browsed last thread
I'm incredibly tempted to roll a Magical Child Vigiliante with the Companion to the Lonely + Rogue Talent: Innocuous servant to become a mahou shoujo battlemaid now.

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>>47242078
You stop that.

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>>47241940
I KNOW, BUT I WANTED TO BELIEVE OKAY.

What kind of magical item would even "fix" this kind of thing? Let's just assume for a moment that it's going to be a magical bracer or glove slot item. Or even multiple items for different slots. Is one that increases the bolts to 19-20/2x weapons and doubles their effective range fine? What about another that adds an enhancement bonus that ignores "you can't enhance this shit" for the same price as an AoMF? What about something to punch through resistences?

This is making me think of the Warlock Vigilante as being pic related now.

>>47242194
Have you considered getting a longbow and refluffing it?

>>47241861
He's just a dude with a pistol. PF doesn't convey how to be a supremely, untouchably badass normal. Who just happens to run at 72km/h (45mph).

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>>47242174
Whoa whoa whoa.

There is nothing deserving of our lord's righteous vengeance in that duty. Even the lonely need to be comforted, the wronged must be redeemed. Even if we serve the lord of chastity, it is for ourselves, we accept the...behaviors of others who could not serve Good as unrelentingly as we do.

>>47241875
>>47242194

This is the sort of place where 4e Impliments would be really useful.

There are all these class given pseudo-attacks from stuff like Wizard specializations and warlock that never scale for crap or have a weapon boost.

Would likely help Evocation spells too if you could get yourself +2 Scorching Rays.

>>47242194
Literally Soul Bolt.

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>>47242078

>Give the familiar the figment archetype, refluff the recurring dream ability as it eating its own corpse

Might work

>>47242028
..-]I[-COMMAND UNDERSTOOD
..-]I[-UNAUTHORIZED PRESENCE DETECTED
..-]I[- INITIATING NECROTIZING VIRUS TO ALL SUBJECTS I TO MX
..-]I[-DISSECTING MEMORIES OF SUBJECT V
..-]I[-LOBOMITIZATION
..-]I[-BEGIN...
"There is something wrong with me. I cannot hide it anymore. I fear my family suspects that something is not quite right with me. They reach out to me, but I pull away. If they came too close, they would know I am different and I am dirty."

"Once, only my mother’s voice mattered. It is strong, soft, and pleasant. She tells me everything I need to know and I follow her instructions without question. She rewards me with her singing, which none can match in tone and beauty. It was only once, a brief distraction by another sound, I chose not to listen to her. For one brief moment, I listened to another song and that was all it took. I can still hear her voice, but now there is another voice; a malicious voice from within my head. I cry out for help, but it restrains my speech. It forces me away from the sight of others; my mother completely unaware of my absence. I struggle against the will that overpowers me and manipulates my limbs. One leg in front of the other, it marches me out into the forest beyond the safety of my home. It grants no rest or reprieve. It is not long before I can no longer hear my mother’s voice. I rebel against its control and it answers my struggles by making it clear, it is much more than just a voice in my head. I can now feel it moving in my head."

>>47242210
>getting a longbow and refluffing it
>implying the kind of GM that lets you refluff a longbow wouldn't also be the kind to let you just make something that goes with the class feature

>>47241861
>techslinger
wrong answer.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/savage-technologist

Any interesting feats or magus arcana come out in any of the recent books?

>>47242511
Depends, what kind of magus?

>>47242522

Ideally for kensai or hexcrafter, but anything is good. Any interesting I can't use on my character will end up on an NPC when it's my turn to DM again.

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>>47242550
Well, hexcrafter is pretty great since you can grab the Flight witch hex. Accursed Strike is pretty neat too.

Kensai are fairly boring in terms of magus arcana, they just go for bonuses to hit, bonuses to AC, etc.

One interesting new arcana is Ranged Spellstrike. My current Iron Gods character is an elven Gun-Witch: an eldritch archer hexcrafter magus who shoots magic bullets. I'm going to give her the Prehensile Hair witch hex so that she can have a free 'hand' to reload, thus allowing her to easily dual wield pistols, whereas most gunslingers need like 3 or 4 feats to reload two pistols without messing up their full attack.

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>>47242303
Take this to /qst/, scrublord.

>>47241838
Maybe SCP-093

Are there any PoW classes that benefit from fighting with just one hand beyond broken blade?

Also how is the Harbinger and Zealot?

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>>47242078
>mfw you were posting this last thread, and the thread before that, and the thread before that

You're not fooling anyone smutfag.

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>>47242741
Scarlet Throne

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>>47242761
There's nothing smutty about pure love, anon.

>>47242741
Scarlet Throne specifically calls for a one-handed weapon with nothing in the other hand, or both hands holding a single weapon two-handed.
Also the Landsknecht prestige class.

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>>47242741
Scarlet Einhander is a damn solid stance for 1h characters. There is also the Landsknecht PrC and the Scarlet Throne Style feat line, which all can be combined on a Zweihander Sentinel Warder who TREATS his one-handed weapon as two-handed for every purpose, but is still one-handed.

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As an Investigator, would it be a bad idea to invest in two mental stats (Cha and Int) and leave physical stats as 10?

We've got a PoW in the group anyways, so I don't think my role as a damage dealer will ever be necessary.

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Here's the corrected Beast Totem Primal Disciple I posted a couple of nights ago when someone asked for a skinwalker barbarian.

It's a little better when compared to the same level barbarian from the NPC Codex.
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-6/sundering-axe-dwarf-barbarian

>>47242630
That is, if people even want to read more of it

>>47242828
What would you be using Cha for?

>>47242741
>Harbinger
A great murdermachine with intuitive and fairly straightforward mechanics. Its specialty is getting discipline save DCs sky-high, and being a mobile combatant.

>Zealot
Had a mess of a development phase but has stabilised pretty well now. A class with a psionic collective is already a big benefit, and it has a pretty interesting 'wireless tanking' mechanic that can come in real handy, especially if you have a method of unlimited healing like Elemental Flux or Silver Crane.
Its missions do pretty interesting things, and move action maneuver recovery is fairly unique.

>>47242828
Go Empiricist Investigator, get INT to almost all the social skills. Add Pragmatic Activator on top of that and you'll barely need CHA for anything.
Main issue is that Investigator also has a PoW archetype, which is pretty great, but it doesn't stack with Empiricist.

>>47243019
Not every social skill in the empiricists' repertoire gets covered by INT. (particularly Disguise in my end.)

>>47243090
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay

Done.

>>47243107

Christ, what is it with Paizo and letting INT steal CHA's nice things?

I'm amazed they haven't made a fucking INT Divine Grace yet.

Did Magic Tactics Toolkit and Ultimate Intrigue have any new 5th level magus spells that stuck out? I just leveled up but nothing actually looks worth taking.

>>47240411
Make enemies think they stabbed you when really you are 15 feet away.Use a nonlethal attack to knock them out, loot some (but nothing essential like their armor or weapon unless its what you need) of their stuff and leave a note saying sorry

>>47243134
Don't forget http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/orator!

>>47243134
>INT Divine Grace
As a capstone (Spirit Whisperer - Heavens).

Whats the best weapon enchantment line-up for a PsyArm?

Keen + Impact + Linked Striking?

>>47240632
Is this out yet?

>>47243156
The only new Magus 5th level spells are Glimpse of Truth which is a 1 round True Seeing, and Scripted Hallucination. Both are from UI.

>>47242828
Go empiricist amd take the traits pragmatic activator and student of philosophy you can dump cha now and still be a good face your gather info will suffer a little though

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>>47241287
>>47241318
>>47241544
Are there stats for this thing in PF?

>>47243134
CHA had its revenge.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/bardic-masterpieces/masterpieces/pageant-of-the-peacock

>>47242920
Thanks for this, PoWNPC anon!

>>47243290

Oh man, the Paizo forum got SO salty about this.

>>47243290
What's the point of this?
Bards have Bardic Knowledge anyways.

>>47243311
???

>>47242488
Also wrong fucking answer. He never enters a rage on his own, he does it with a Berserker Pack.

>>47243311
Link?

>>47243320

There was a huge, incredibly stupid debate about how the pageant actually worked, people claiming it was stupid and broken and should be banned...fun times.

>>47243319
>chelish diva
I rely on my popularity, not my encyclopedic knowledge. Also, is a 2-dip in alchemist a bad plan?

>Apply reign of winter campaign on Roll20
>GM is considering my application but wants me to be some sort of traitor

Why cant I get a break? This will probably end with me getting shanked by every other PC even if I'm only a conspirator by name and not by action.

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>>47242608
Huh, interesting. Did you take a gunslinger dip or straight magus? What do you spellstrike with, because you can't do the standard shocking grasp/frostbite shenanigans

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>>47243310
You're welcome. Are you the anon who first asked for it?

Does anyone have any other specific NPC initiator requests?

>>47243427
>That pic
I fucking love hara-pan

>>47240458
Someone wandered off the Buck Rogers set

>>47243259
Oh, that's a shame. Thanks for answering my question anyway, though. I had already seen them on the PFSRD, but I was hoping there might be more. None of the spells I could pick up really thrill me- partially because we already have two full casters in the party, probably, but also just because it seems like the Magus' 5th level spell selection is underwhelming... Even the blast spells they get at that level are kind of shitty. I've thought about Overland Flight but that seems unnecessary because I frequently cast Monstrous Physique II and turn into a gargoyle during combat, and would continue to do so even if I had Overland Flight on because of all the other bonuses it gives. I guess I could take Monstrous Physique III, but I don't know about anything that would be worth transforming into... Could do Wall of Force, but the Druid and the Shadowdancer can both do walls spells really well already.

>>47243417

Not that anon, but meet the Snowball spell:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/snowball

>>47243288
Is that the thing that will be birthed?
Fuck you

>>47243333
And now I think about it, Savage Technologists get a bonus to gun damage when raging, but Doomguy doesn't use guns AT ALL when he does.

Savage Technologist just doesn't work for him.

If he needs to have Rage at all, then he's probably some other kind of barbarian than Savage Technologist.

Keep in mind, he's in a Guns Everywhere setting, Doomguy doesn't have to give a fuck about proficiency.

I've never play a necromancer before. Can anyone explain how animate dead work?

For example, if I killed an Owlbear and cast animate dead on it. Do I just apply a Skeleton temple onto Owlbear?

>>47243633

Yes, assuming whatever you want to raise doesn't exceed your HD limit. It's basically an undead vending machine--pay the onyx, cast the spell, collect your undead out of it. Note that you aren't limited to just the skeleton template, as there are more powerful skeleton and zombie templates that cost more of your casting budget (like bloody skeletons, which are totally worth it).

In practice, try not to raise a bunch of weak undead that will slow down the game when they take their turn.

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>>47243438
Then you'll love this one.

In 2012, I ran a Pathfinder game where the PCs had to fight a halfling crime syndicate that went around punching people in the crotch and stomach.

>>47243288
Is that an atropal? It has D&D3.5 stats to use.

>>47243741
Thanks. Time to be "Good" Necromancer. It's not like I'll lost my necromancy spell if my character is good...

>>47243895
oh boy here we fucking go

>>47243973
Oh, hush.

Necromancy is taboo, not objective evil.

>>47243895

RAW you can't be, as raising undead is inherently an evil act in the standard 3.PF ruleset. Doing so on a semi-regular basis will make your character evil, which isn't to say they can't do good things or be pleasant people.

Unless your DM is houseruling this assumption away, expect to have to keep your activities on the DL when interacting with most NPCs.

>>47244008
Incorrect.

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One of my fellow players is creating a gnome chained monk from 1st level, with 20 point buy.

How useless will they be?

>>47243998
>>47244029
The spells that raise skeletons have the [Evil] tag. That SPECIFICALLY means they are objectively evil acts that will eventually push you towards an Evil alignment, if you don't possess one already.

That is not to say that alignments aren't stupid and probably should be houseruled away, but don't imply the rules don't say what they say.

>>47244056
It's going to be pretty hilariously bad. Remember to write down what he says when he realizes the colossal fuckup he is bringing upon himself.

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>>47243998
>>47244029

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>>47244008
>>47243998
>>47243973
She's just fulfilling her promise! But like the other anon said. DM can't stop my character from doing good, even if he mark my character sheet down as "EVIL" for some reason.

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>>47244056
That depends on everyone else in the party.

If everyone else knows what they're doing, I expect him to be very useless.

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>>47244029
>>47244008
>>47243998
>>47243973
>>47243895
stoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppitstoppit

>>47244080
>they are objectively evil acts that will eventually push you towards an Evil alignment
Wretched Curator, as bad as it is could be useful if they really insist but that does require a bit of investment and at least kevel 9. And a waste of a feat. Still, it's an option for getting rid of [EVIL].

>>47242820

Don't forget it was shown that a Zweihander 6 / Landsknecht 4 gets 15 feet for their threatened area, as well as the Improved Quick Draw feat as a class feature, that effectively gives them a free surprise round!

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>>47242789
There's nothing pure about what you do or who you are.

>>47244181
>>47244080
Just cast Summon Monster afterward? Summon Monster has [Good] tag.

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>>47244080
>Remember to write down what he says when he realizes the colossal fuckup he is bringing upon himself.

The player has already said, and I quote, "I'll be making a more fun character then a min max character. I'm actually a 5e player so I'll be learning pathfinder as i go. Don't want anything too complex."

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>>47244247

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>>47244249
He seems like a decent guy, like he's just having fun.

If you're really concerned, let the GM know not to go too hard, but I doubt it's a problem.

>>47244249

>5e player

Oh, god damn it, he's coming from an edition where monks are actually pretty fun. That poor son of a bitch.

>>47244249
oh dear.

>>47244249
There is no fun to be had with a character that literally cannot punch its way out of a paper bag, has no spells, and in generally is just a shitty time waiting to happen.

Warn him now, before this thing ever sees a game.

>>47244279
The chained Monk is super awful. If he takes the trap and goes Vow of Poverty, he will literally be a T6 character. He will be absolute garbage at all the things. All of them. Every single one.

>>47244285
4e is the edition with super strong and mobile monks, not 5e.

>>47244277
Those Os make me uncomfortable for some reason.
Anybody got sage advice type statements that seem significant until they finish and then you realize it means absolutely nothing?

I have a question about maneuver prerequisites. Say you take a bunch of maneuvers, and you have the ability to swap a maneuver you know at particular levels. Do you have to be really careful not to accidentally remove a maneuver that was a 'prereq maneuver' for a higher level maneuver?

>>47244316
Vow of Poverty isn't a trap, it's an obvious gaping hole.

>>47243895
>School necromancy [evil]
Creating undead is inherently evil, doing it will make you evil because the process to create them involves doing evil acts.

>>47244322
5e monks ARE fun, though.

I had tons of fun with an Order of Shadows monk, permanent invis and infinite teleports at night.

>>47244322
5e monks are still pretty great, though. Open Hand monks toss enemies into the air when they punch them.

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>>47244279
>>47244285
>>47244310
>>47244316

The player does not wish to be an Unchained monk, claiming that it is too complex. Additionally, "Ok i will have a base str of 12 after negatives."

Something tells me that this will end in tears.

>>47244400
Wow. My condolences.

>>47244400
So why are you bitching to us on /tg/ instead of talking to him?

>>47244400
Just offer him a feat from an obscure book called deadly agility.

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>>47244400
It's the only way he'll learn.

Bumping real quick:

>I have a question about maneuver prerequisites. Say you take a bunch of maneuvers, and you have the ability to swap a maneuver you know at particular levels. Do you have to be really careful not to accidentally remove a maneuver that was a 'prereq maneuver' for a higher level maneuver?

>>47244460
As long as you still have X maneuvers known of the right type other than the maneuver in question, it works.

So if you've got:

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 8th.

You could swap the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd for another maneuver of the same disc, because the 8th sees "you've got three" at all times.

>>47244460
Yes. But even high level maneuvers don't have terribly steep prereqs.

>>47244460
There are no maneuvers that are specific prereqs.

I believe you DO have to maintain the 'X maneuvers from (discipline)' requirement.

>>47244386
Having Evil alignment on character sheet doesn't prevent the PC from doing good thing. like a pre-redeem Succubus

>>47244386
Nah.

You just pick up a skele, and slap some mojo into it with a bit of onyx. All good.

>>47244440
omg she is so cute (in a non pedophile way)

Anybody want to give me a suggestion for an addition to a party? I'm working with a friend to get him a character built since he feels all his options have been taken.

>>47244553
what is the current party?

>>47244460
I would say the character "knows how" to perform maneuver A, they just "don't" anymore now that they've mastered it and moved on to the clearly superior maneuver B. Sure, I'd allow it to be swapped out.

>>47244571
The game hasn't started yet but thankfully the other players don't know enough to be likely to switch.

I'm playing a telekineticist (it has everything to act as a rogue) and we have a grenadier, a summoner, a sorcerer (unknown bloodline), and a zwei sent. The last member isn't allowed a full caster (he'd break them) and isn't a fan of pure martial although he'd be ok with PoW classes.

>>47244553
If there's already a bard, an Archivist bard is fully stackable with it and is not even performance-based but instead knowledge-based.

>>47244612
Monster Tactician Inquisitor :3c?
Totally not a fullcaster.

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>>47244529
More gnome monks

>>47244612
Have him roll a Cleric as party support and utility caster.

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>>47244654

>>47244646
That could work although he may feel it's too close to the party's summoner.

>>47244612
That's breaking the no full caster rule for him (and me).

How is the melee Mesmerist now? Manifold Stare support is pretty good right?

>>47244080
>>47244008
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/wretched-curator-story

BEHOLD

>Prerequisite(s): You must have purchased a scroll or spellbook containing a spell with the evil descriptor in a place where such dealings are illegal, or must have the Secret Society Inductee or Diabolical Upbringing background.

>Benefit(s): You can always purchase potions and scrolls of spells with the evil descriptor at a 10% discount, even if they are not normally available in a settlement because of its size or the local laws. You gain a +4 bonus on Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks related to spells with the evil descriptor or evil written works.

>Goal: You must own scrolls of spells with the evil descriptor or tomes of forbidden lore worth a total of 50 gp per character level, and be the primary caster of a successful occult ritual of at least 5th level that has the evil descriptor.

>Completion Benefit(s): Every time you cast a spell with the evil descriptor, you can remove that descriptor from the spell and treat yourself as a neutral-aligned caster for the purpose of determining the spell's effects, circumventing defenses such as protection from evil and preventing detection via detect evil and similar effects. If you cast a spell with the evil descriptor and do not remove that descriptor, you instead gain 2 temporary hit points per spell level. These temporary hit points last for 1 hour.

>Every time you cast a spell with the evil descriptor, you can remove that descriptor from the spell and treat yourself as a neutral-aligned caster for the purpose of determining the spell's effects
>you can remove that descriptor from the spell

Non-evil necromancy, just a feat and some gold away, plus a ritual. What I find hilarious is that it basically rewards you by making spells NOT evil, except to get the benefit you have to go seeking out a lot of evil spells.

So, I'm trying to make an arcane duelist bard. Primarily a supporter, but serves as a physical presence as well and mild anti-caster.

So, I'm debating using the VMC cavalier for the tactician line. Beyond that, a two level dip in fighter, and the step up. Any recommendation for weapons? Is ray shield worth the dex investment (I'm primarily looking at strength)? Is eldritch heritage (imperious) worth it?

Thanks!

>>47244612
If he wants martials but not pure martials then just be literally any supernatural initiator

Stalker, Harbinger, Mystic, Zealot

Alternately Marksman, Aegis, Magus, Dread, or any more classic gish sort of thing.

>>47244861
Those could work. A warlord would also work I think. Keep the suggestions coming though, I want to give him some options.

>>47244316
>>47244400
Small almost negative strength monk?

Yeah, he's going to hate this game. Like a lot. Sit him down and explain to him that 3.5 (and pathfinder) are "Ivory tower" design, in that some classes require a certain amount of "min-maxing" to even be capable of basic tasks - playing a small sized monk with low strength is literally setting yourself up to be useless. Its tough breaks, but the game is full of retard traps.

It would be like playing a pure fighter class in an MMO and only equipping cloth items with +magic damage.

>>47244316
>>47244400
>>47245324
Look at the bright side: he will definitely die.

Juju Zombie is so much better than normal Zombie.
Is there a reason not to always create Juju Zombie?

>>47245392
Juju zombies are much less loyal if the DM plays them RAW, and might turn against you to kill you..

>>47245403
Isn't that go against Animate Dead / Create Undead spell?

> The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely.

>>47245442
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead
Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.

This clearly implies that you control them with no additional stipulations, thus, there's no permanent control and they may fuck you over.
And animate dead doesn't allow you to make intelligent undead, such as Juju Zombies.

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>>47244861
Eldritch Archer Magus
Stalker that goes into Mage Hunter
Arrowsong Minstrel Bard
Battle Scion Skald (rap battler)

>>47245453
thanks! Next question, if I'm playing a Juju Oracle, I get create undead as a bonus 5th level spell, but can only use it only to create juju zombie. Can I still learn the normal full power 6th level Create Undead spell at later level?

>>47245499
>Can I still learn the normal full power 6th level Create Undead spell at later level?
I would say yes, but I don't know of a definite RAW on that one, so different DM's might rule differently. In other words, ask your DM.

http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rust-Risen
What would be a balanced way of letting my necromancer player be able to raise these?

>>47245518
Create undead.

>>47245498
Awesome, thanks.

can the scar hex allow a witch to cast their hexes without need of line of sight?

>>47245606
>Effect: The target may make a Will save to resist this hex. These scars do not interfere with the target’s senses or prevent it from using abilities, but may affect social interactions. The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. They persist through disguises and shapechanging.
>The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range. The number of supernatural scars the witch can maintain at once is equal to her Intelligence bonus; once she reaches this limit, she must remove the scar from a current victim in order to mark another. Effects that remove curses can remove the scar.

This is an exhaustive list of the abilities of the Hex.
If something isn't mentioned, the hex doesn't do that.

Is there a way to get a discipline not inherent to your class?

>>47245370
Why would he if the enemies never target him and he actually has decent defenses?

>>47245662
He's a core monk at 20pb, he CAN'T have decent defenses.

how to skill monkey as unchained rogue

>>47245644
There are martial traditions (I think that's the name) you can take which give you them and additional benefits at a minor cost.

>>47245606
>>47245638
Clarification:
Magical rules (including line of effect) apply to (su) abilities, unless the abilities are clearly exempt from one or more of those rules. Scar does not provide such an exemption.

>>47245676
Put your 8+Int ranks into skills every level.

>>47245638

So is that a yes or no?

Scrying doesn't say it doesn't need line of sight or effect but still 'works' apparently.

>>47245690
ok

>>47245686

see

>>47245695


Unless there is something I'm missing that says scrying allows otherwise?

>>47245695
>>47245723
Scrying has this:
>Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked.
Since a lead sheeting is explicitly mentioned, the implication is that other mundane blocks of line of effect do not work. Thus, all spells with the scrying descriptor don't normally require line of effect. Mentioning that in a particular spell is just redundant.

>>47245726
>>47245723
>>47245695
Ah, right, the source just in case:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination

>>47245680
Thanks, mate. I was thinking of making some character with both mithral current and scarlet throne that isn't a bushi.

>>47244526
>Five Things Almost Everyone Knows About Undead

>The following are a few facts that are considered common knowledge among civilized peoples.

>Most undead were once living. Knowing details about the phase of existence that preceded a creature's undeath is often invaluable in determining its motives.
>Holy water damages undead as though it were acid. Distributed by goodly religious orders the world over, holy water is the only line of defense against undead for many commoners.
>Undead are invariably evil, as are the means to create such beings.
>Undead are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.
>Undead are immune to numerous magical effects, including mind-affecting effects and abilities that affect a creature's physical constitution.
>Undead are invariably evil, as are the means to create such beings.

Seems pretty cut and dry that the method itself is evil.

>>47245747
>The following are a few facts considered common knowledge among civilized people

That shit's what the average person thinks they know.

Fuck, the exact same line says undead are INVARIABLY EVIL.

When they aren't.

>>47245769
>Fuck, the exact same line says undead are INVARIABLY EVIL.
They are actually. Literally fueled by negative energy, they are considered evil even when mindless unlike any other mindless creature.

>>47245785
>they are considered evil even when mindless unlike any other mindless creature.
Some constructs have same alignment as creator while being mindless. :^)

>>47245769

The number of non-evil undead types can be counted on one hand. Doubly so if you exclude 'Neutral but still hostile to the majority of the living they encounter' like some Mummies.

While not 100% accurate it's basically true.

>>47245800
>invariably

>>47245785
Except Negative Energy is explicitly not evil.

>>47245726

>Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked.

Doesn't explicitly say that it doesn't need loe/los just that lead sheets and magical protection blocks it.

if we are going off the statement >>If something isn't mentioned, the hex doesn't do that.
Then that means scrying can't go through walls even though the intent seems to be there. But that same intent could be applied to the witch's scar since its rule says >>The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile

The English used is a bit hard for me to understand with the rules.

>>47245800
Mummies are evil though, unless they are some special obscure thing like baelnorns, which are literally created by gods.

>>47245800
>hostile to the majority of the living

Of course they are, those kids need to get off their lawns.

>>47245821
Nuh-uh.
It's a clear-cut case of specific vs general.
The general rules for spells are that anything blocks LoE and that sucks. Scrying-descriptor subrules narrow down those rules to a specific case of only lead and magical barriers, thus excluding all other ways of blocking LoE.
Therefore, you still can't use the Scar hex to waive LoE.

>>47245808

>While not 100% accurate it's basically true.

>>47245808
>>47245859
>exceptions make the rule.

>>47245859
Invariably MEANS there are no exceptions. It's the wrong word to use for anything that has contradictory outliers.

>>47245813
It is tied to the plane of shadow and the negative energy plane. It is universal entropy that destroys anything and everything. By creating an undead creature you are both wresting a soul back from the afterlife *and* creating another link for more entropy (and evil) to enter the world.

In D&D/PF terms, undead are expressly evil, unless you can find some way to A) not fuck with the soul and B) not link it to the negative energy plane... at which point it's not really a fucking undead anymore.

>>47245844

where can I find the specific vs general?

>>47245676
Underground Chemist.
18 int.

>>47245931
Alright list ten exceptions.

>>47245947
While the "specific vs general" rule isn't explicitly written anywhere in the pathfinder ruleset, pathfinder is, by its nature, an exceptions-defined system. And in such systems, specific trumps general in all conflicts.

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>>47245644
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Advanced-Study-Combat-
Advanced Study will get you a maneuver or a stance.

The Unorthodox Study trait will let you swap a discipline.

Joining a Martial Tradition will also let you swap a discipline.

The Lord of War talent for Stalkers will let you add either Piercing Thunder or Scarlet Throne.

>>47245960
What? Why? If there's ONE exception (ghosts?) then I'm right.

>>47245978

then would it not be the same case with the hex scar?
>The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells.

and

>The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range.

Or does the witch have to have line of effect and sight to remove the scar too?

>>47246018
>then would it not be the same case with the hex scar?
It wouldn't, since the hex doesn't mention LoE in any way or form, and, thus, doesn't change LoE rules in any way or form.

>Or does the witch have to have line of effect and sight to remove the scar too?
As far as I understand, it would fall under spell dismissal rules as the closest equivalent, rather than casting spells, with specific clauses of "any range" and "move action" overriding general dismissal rules of "within spell's range" and "standard action".
While casting spells requires LoE, dismissing them does not. Thus, withdrawing the hex also shouldn't.

>>47246001

Funny thing: The ghost in the book is CE.

>>47246018
>>47246053
Another reasonable way to read withdrawing the hex is thus:
Instead of adhering to any of the existing general rules, it's its' own unique action the definition of which entirely encompassed within Scar description.
Since that doesn't mention LoE, withdrawing the hex doesn't require LoE.

Therefore, in both possible ways to read it, withdrawal is LoE-less.

>>47246001
>What? Why? If there's ONE exception (ghosts?) then I'm right.
Because you have yet to show any exceptions, and even if there is one exception in the entire book that is nothing to base a general conclusion off of, you could say mammals do not lay eggs, which is correct for all of like two cases, most people would accept it as correct.
Again Exceptions Make the Rule, now stop being belligerent and trying to say undead and the creation of them are not evil when it is, the rules support that it is, and there is apparently only one exception in all of existence.
>>47246073
Ghosts are apparently special snowflakes and have this line.
>When a soul is not allowed to rest due to some great injustice, either real or perceived, it sometimes comes back as a ghost. Such beings are in eternal anguish, lacking in substance and unable to set things right. Although ghosts can be any alignment, the majority cling to the living world out of a powerful sense of rage and hatred, and as a result are chaotic evil—even the ghost of a good or lawful creature can become hateful and cruel in its afterlife.
>Although ghosts can be any alignment, the majority cling to the living world out of a powerful sense of rage and hatred, and as a result are chaotic evil—even the ghost of a good or lawful creature can become hateful and cruel in its afterlife.
So apparently they can be not evil but that existence sounds awful and maddening and no one would seek it and most would turn Chaotic Evil from Experiencing it, so any not evil ghosts are inherently special snow flakes.

>>47245936
Wrong again.

The plane of shadow and the plane of negative energy are entirely separate and have nothing to do with each other.

Also, most undead do NOTHING to the owner of the corpse's soul.

If a man dies and is revived with true resurrection, he gets a NEW body. His OLD body is still perfectly useful for necromancy. It being raised prior to his revival also doesn't intefere in any way WITH said revival.

So in short...

A) Shit like animate dead just puppeteers a corpse, and does nothing with the soul

B) Negative energy isn't evil.

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>>47246073
?

So the succubi can give a gift to a character, what other creatures can do that kind of stuff? I know Candlestone Courtiers can, and one devil does.

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What class is BMX Bandit?

>>47246112
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/true-resurrection
>You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Conversely, the implication is pretty hard that they can't be revived if their currently undead-raised body hasn't been destroyed.

>>47246118
The succubi thing isn't that benevolent desu.

>>47245936
What happen when you reincarnate and use animate dead on your old body?

>>47246112
>Shit like animate dead just puppeteers a corpse, and does nothing with the soul
Incorrect, it does something to the soul, that is why you can not use a spell like resurrection, true resurrection, or reincarnation on someone whos body is currently animated even if you have the means to cast it from other ways.
True Resurrection does not work, the spell that can bring you back from basically nothing.
That means it can't reach your soul.
Just animating the corpse would make it a golem, you need more to make it an undead.

>>47246112
>The plane of shadow and the plane of negative energy are entirely separate and have nothing to do with each other.

Wrong
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes
>Shadow Plane

>The eerie and deadly Shadow Plane is a grim, colorless “duplicate” of the Material Plane. It overlaps with the Material Plane but is smaller in size, and is in many ways a warped and mocking “reflection” of the Material Plane, one infused with negative energy (see Inner Planes) and serving as home for strange monsters like undead shadows and worse. Powerful spellcasters utilize the Shadow Plane to swiftly travel immense distances on the Material Plane with shadow walk, or draw upon the mutable essence of the Shadow Plane to create quasi-real effects and creatures with spells like shadow evocation or shades.

>>47245747
>The following are a few facts that are considered common knowledge among civilized peoples.
I'd rather not take the word of some moron in a bar who's relating the story his old nan told him once upon a time.

>>47246160
Then how about you take the rule books stance on it where every undead in the monster manual is evil, and the spells to make undead are evil.

>>47240312
House rules and rule of cool all day everyday. All the planning in the world doesn't get rid of my scatter brain so I wing it and it becomes more free form.

>>47246160
According to Pathfinder Player Companion Black Markets:
>Creating an undead violates not merely a person’s body, but also his immortal soul

>>47246118
I don't get why Succubi aren't devils. They are intelligent, conniving and their entire focus is corrupting and seducing mortals - all very devil-centric themes. They aren't even violent 95% of the time and can make polite conversation at the grocery store during the day.

>>47246113

I meant the Monster Manual.

>>47246187
Because Erinyes took the female devil role and are far superior to Succubi.

>>47246187

In 4e they were made devils. In part because they wanted to give Demons/Devils more separation and thus Demons went more Elemental and Devils more Conceptual.

At this point it's basically just 'Tradition'

>>47246128
>The succubi thing isn't that benevolent desu.
I am planar binding creatures then dominating monster them. I just want free power.

>>47246187
Because sexy is chaotic.

>>47246125
Clearly generic fighter

>>47246125
I don't think he's a real bandit (rogue), so expert.

>>47246125

Expert.

Alternatively, cavalier.

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>>47246172
Hey! Look what I found!

>>47246187
That changed in 4e. In 3.5 there was even a devil equivalent of them, but Succubi are traditional to have as a demon. It's also because succubi are so specifically referred to as "demons" in tons of folklore/fantasy shit.

>>47246218
Something written from the perspective of a character, that talks about exceptional undead being the only exception?
Whew lad you really want your good necromancer don't you?
So you are telling me that it happens about as often as a demon or devil becomes good, which the only one we have seen was literally forced to be good by a god.
So yeah, if a god comes down and literally forces an undead to be good, I could see it happening.
Joe necromancer is not going to do it, and what he is doing is inherently wrong and evil, and what he will create is wrong and inherently evil.

>>47246262
CG ghost exist in Golarion. Your feeble RAW can't stop the power of JJ's low WiS high CHA waifu

>>47246155
That same page lists the negative energy plane as well, dingus.

>>47246150
Except souls go wherever. They get melted down into soulstuff, they become outsiders, they get trapped in soul gems. None of these stop necromancy from working.

>>47246128
So what soul does it pull out if you're alive and your old corpse is raised?

>>47246301
>That same page lists the negative energy plane as well, dingus.
You said they had nothing to do with each other. Says right there the shadow plane is infused with negative energy.

>>47246128
What happen if the was done in reverse order though?

Resurrect first (with a small lock of hair or something) and then use animate dead on the rest of the body. Nothing in the rule prevent this interaction.

>>47246310
You wanna scroll down and check the actual planar traits of the Plane of Shadow, bud?

Nothing to do with negative energy there. Heck, the Shadow Plane is apparently mildly-neutral-aligned.

In contrast, the Negative plane has the Major Negative-Dominant trait, and NO alignment trait.

>>47246297
Obviously the only course of action is to kill JJ in a way that turns him into a ghost so he can see the error of his ways and understand that being a ghost will drive you fucking crazy.

>>47246301
>So what soul does it pull out if you're alive and your old corpse is raised?
I'd imagine you can't do that.

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>>47240022

Update.

I had joined this kingdom-building game under the following premise: Kingmaker, the adventure path, except that characters gradually mutate into 40 RP custom races due to exposure to First World faerie energies.

I had opted to play a half-elf who would eventually metamorphose into a faerie foxboy. However, it seems that two other players have elected for their characters to mutate into kemonomimi foxes as well.

However, after several hours of entrenching myself into character creation and the group, it soon became apparent that the GM of the game is some sort of transformation fiction (and fanfiction) writer and had advertised this game on a transformation forum. I am, out of all players, the only one who came from elsewhere.

I have blundered into a den of depravity, and I am somehow managing to blend in with the fox-lovers. The remaining players and the GM seem to be the type to prefer... furrier transformations. Should I carry on like this?

>>47246334
You can't do that. He's the heart and soul of Pathfinder.

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>>47246112
How does it feel to be wrooooooong?

>>47246331
I'm disputing you saying they're not connected. They are connected. I don't really care if negative energy is evil.

Making undead is always evil because the spells to make them are evil. Undead are always evil because all forms of undead createable to PC necromancers are evil. Simply performing these tasks is morally corrupting, but does not require you to be evil.

>>47246336
Nothing preventing it, boyo.

I'm pretty sure the caveat in Raise Dead, Res, and True Res about undead is that an undead is not a viable target for raising since it's in use. Raise dead won't work because the body's been beaten to shit after being destroyed as an undead and no longer valid for that spell, whereas Res and True Res will work on it, not having the body condition limit.

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>>47246347
Carry on.

If he and the rest know the rules, the game can still be fun.

If the game goes badly, other than the magical realm stuff, leave. At that point, no group is better than a bad group.

>>47246350
Is that why the whole system and setting has a terminal case of cancer?
I wonder what soul cancer feels like on that note.

>>47246347
Be the straight man in the group, see serious issues and be concerned with the gradual transformation.

>>47246374
Explain how they're connected then.

The actual section describing the Shadow Plane's traits doesn't mention negative energy at all.

>>47246388
It was either in Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis or Elder Evils.

>>47246423
How do you get soul cancer? Do you stand too close to a ghost touch microwave without protection or something? Or Ghost touch Uranium Rods?

Man.. you guys can stop arguing. I knew Necromancer is [Evil]. But having evil or neutral alignment does not prevent my character from doing good act. So yeah, that how I am gonna roll with Good Necromancer.

>>47246388
>>47246423
Actually "Soul cancer" pretty much describes in Book of Exalted Deeds' Afflictions. Good-aligned diseases, printed alongside torturous good-aligned poisons right after an intro paragraph talks about why you need them instead of the too-cruel poison alternatives.

>>47246402
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes
It's lore describes it being negative energy infused, strangely the actual rules do not.

However this still does not make the point of all PC available ways of creating undead being evil any less true, and all undead PCs can create are evil as well.

>>47246448
A good character who knowingly and willingly commits evil does not stay good for long, similarly an evil characters who knowingly and willing commits good does not stay evil for long.

The act of casting the spell itself is evil, the creatures it creates are evil. One must do a lot of good with them to equalize out to even neutral. To be good one must push this even further to evangelical use of the undead for moral right. Even then they may not go beyond neutral.

>>47246440
Exposure to an Elder Evil. I just looked through Elder Evils, but none specifically call it out.

The closest signs are Twisted Life and Appalling Fecundity.

There might be more material in the upcoming cosmic horror stuff.

>>47246567
To put it simply. I don't care about which alignment is mark on my sheet.

>>47246596
Unfortunately in Pathfinder you need to as many spells care about what alignment you are. Just make your character neutral, which is entirely possible as a necromancer. The problem is then solved.

>>47246596
>I do evil to do good
3edgy for me mate

>>47246605
Oracle, Shaman and Arcane Caster doesn't actually care.

>>47246653
They can cast the spells no matter their alignment, the spells themselves are still evil and thus morally corrupting.

And other spells such as Holy Word, Hallow, Unhallow, and more care about what alignment you are. What is on your sheet has mechanical implications.

>>47246567
>I know exactly to what degree evil acts and good acts are valued.

>>47246673
We been through this before anon. Evil alignment character can do good stuff.

Will I get extra damage by Smite Evil because of that? Sure. But it doesn't prevent me from using a skeleton to help an old lady cross the street and do grocery.

>>47243408

The hells? I can see some opportunities for internal conflict in RoW, but I'm not keen on DMs who want to put this BS in at the start of the game.

>>47246402
Imagine a sphere.

In the center of the sphere, is the prime material. Above the prime is the positive energy plane. Below the prime is the negative energy plane. to the north, east, west and south are the elemental planes. In all of the 'empty' space you have the astral plane.

Then there are 'demi-planes' that connect planes to each other, and to the prime as well. The demi-plane of shadow, is the connection between the prime material and the negative energy plane. The ethereal plane is the connection between the positive energy plane and the prime material. Both of these planes technically overlap the prime, but they don't touch each other at all.

The negative energy connections to fire, earth, water and air, are the demiplanes of ash, dust, salt and vacuum.

The positive energy connecctions to fire, earth, water and air are the demiplanes of radiance, mineral, steam and lightning.

Earth connects to water to create the demi-plane of ooze and fire to create the demi-plane of magma.

Air connects to water to create the demiplane of ice and fire to create the demiplane of smoke.

This covers *all* of the connections between the 'inner' planes. The outer planes are technically all connected to the astral sea, but they take fucking forever to travel.

>>47246722
See, this is what bugs me about 'necromancy = evil' shite.

What 'evil' is being perpetrated? Who are you getting benefit at the expense of?

It could be said you're stealing someone's property (Their body), but as discussed, you're not fucking with THEM, just the thing they were piloting on the material plane, so it's theft at worst.

Killing someone in the first place is more evil, really.

>>47243408
Just walk away, anon. You'll regret playing with that DM.

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>>47246768
I think they got rid of half the planes you mentioned in 3rd ed.

>>47246768
So where you getting this from exactly?

>>47246722
The scale of the evil is different though.

Creating the skeleton is pretty damn evil. You're letting unnatural entropy seep into the world and the world is a worse place for it - people are slowly suffused by it, to become less nice, less trusting. People are less fertile, stillbirths happen, crops fail more often, plants die, etc.

Having that skeleton you made (for an effect of global world evil +1000) help an old lady cross the street doesn't actually provide much good (woo +.01 good points). It's also incredibly likely that the skeleton will be destroyed before you ever offset the cost of its creation... not to mention the constant 'evil energy' upkeep it requires.

Undead radiate negative energy - they literally fucking bleed it into the world like plutonium.

>>47246787
>>47246784

D&D likes to change is cosmology all the time, but that is one of them. and for most purposes, it is also the correct one, tho no one really gives a shit about a lot of the lesser demiplanes

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>>47246787
Not >>47246768, but it comes from Planescape in the 2nd edition.

>>47246818
If I can DM a group that makes it to level 11, they will care about the lesser demiplanes.

>>47246813
Bag of holdan

>>47246831
That's a bastard hybrid of the 2e and 5e cosmologies you have in your pic.

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While we're discussing planar structure, this is how warcraft does it.

The prime in warcraft wouldn't exist without all the outers.

>>47246813
You entire argument about "muh negative energy" doesn't make sense when there are class that can create undead without [Evil] description like Dirge Bard and Occultist.

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>>47246844
It's just getting more and more confusing lately.

Imagine being a planar traveler in the game itself going through all these edition changes.

>>47246722
That's what I'm saying. You can still do good even if you're evil. Honestly if a player wants to play a "good" necromancer I am just going to tell him he is creating perversions of life and would be thrown out most civilized nations if they knew. Necromancy is almost always a crime.


>>47246776
>What 'evil' is being perpetrated? Who are you getting benefit at the expense of?
The creation and existence of undead is evil in and of itself.

>Killing someone in the first place is more evil, really.
Killing is not evil. Killing is neutral as both the cycle of death and life are neutral.

You are confusing your own morality with D&D alignment morality.

>>47246776
My personal interpretation is that negative energy is, well extremely unpleasant and dangerous to living things over time. There is a reason people are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative. It is like animating skellies involves thorium (a very rough comparison) - you could say it for good things, but ultimately people and the world will suffer from it. There is also the matter that undead creatures, per se, are definitely "not nice". You can command them, but if they slip the leash, they are malicious and dangerous.

And yes, killing someone for no good reason is more evil than just animating a skeleton.

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>>47246784
I miss Mechanus.

>>47246938
Death is not itself evil. The killing of innocents is however evil, this can be seen via conjecture on the paladin code.

>>47246895
What part of the occultist gets not evil animate dead?

>>47246895
Dirge Bards occupy a very weird space. If you were a dirge bard then performing the dance of the dead is not morally corrupting. However if you are not one of these rare exceptions creating and using undead are morally corrupting.

While the act of Dance of the Dead is not evil, what it creates are still evil.

>>47246900
So it comes back down to 'undead are evil because someone says so rather than any actual reason'

Which means that as far as alignment goes, it means fucking nothing, since alignment is 95% up to the player and sometimes the DM.

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>>47246981
>people give all sorts of reasons
>OMG U GUYZ, U DON'T GIVE ANY REASONS!

Yep, I guess there's no reason if you literally ignore any and all discussion that would contradict your view.

>>47247036
All the reasons I've been given have been shit or not reasons at all.

At worst, necromancy is theft of property.

>>47246953
Necromantic Servant.

One of my fellow players wants to be a vaguely-"Witcher" like character who uses mutagens, extracts, actual blasting spells, AND martial swordplay.

They would like to be a magus/alchemist for this, but they will be starting at 1st-level.

Is there a better way to handle this build?

>>47247054
>I DISAGREE WITH THEM THEREFOR THEY'RE NOT VALID

Oh what compelling arguments you make. See if you ignore everything that says your wrong - you're never wrong!

I mean sure, do whatever the fuck you want in homebrew, but according to setting rules undead are evil. Just like how a man with highly radioactive plutonium bones would be a net negative to the health of anyone he was around, except undead are a net negative to the health of the very world.

>>47247096
No, I mean really.

Reasons I have been given have been like 'negative energy is evil' (It isn't), 'It tortures the creature's soul' (It doesn't), and then 'because it just is' (Which is stupid)

>>47247079
Also, the player very, very badly wants to be able to Aard and hit multiple enemies each time.

>>47247079
The new Investigator that replace poison lore with monster lore and replace studied target with archivist bard ability?

You still have extract and you are train to exploit all monster weakness

>>47247137
Does that have blasting?

>>47246981
>Which means that as far as alignment goes, it means fucking nothing, since alignment is 95% up to the player and sometimes the DM.
> since alignment is 95% up to the player and sometimes the DM.
> since alignment is 95% up to the player
>sometimes the DM.
So you are one of those.
No wonder you are a shit.
Anyways the books say they are evil, that should be reason enough. If the rules litteraly stating they are evil and the rules for making them having the [evil] descriptor, and the act being described as evil in multiple sources is not enough for you, you must be the ultimate that guy.
>The rules are only important if they help my argument else wise they are suggestions.

>>47247144
When it comes to alignment?

The thing about morality, character, and motivations?

Never mind that alignment is the most vague system in the game, with few concrete mechanics regarding changing alignment, and for good reason.

>>47247142
Probably not.. if it's that important though.. get it as SLA or magic item or something.

Maybe just go pure Magus with brew potion?

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>not having just 5 planes instead of overcomplicated under-fluffed shit you don't use until someone randomly winds up there

FIRST, there was chaos and creation. THEN, it made a garbage chute. THEN it made someone who cared what was created. THEN those new guys created someone to manage the garbage chute. THEN they made ungrateful mortals.

>>47247123
>'negative energy is evil' (It isn't)
Technically correct. It isn't inherently evil - it just is. However the process of creating undead uses it... and hastens universal entropy.

So yeah, it is immoral and irresponsible to create undead, because they literally hasten the demise of the world.

>'It tortures the creature's soul' (It doesn't)
No, it *ensnares* the creatures soul, preventing them from making it to the afterlife like they should. There's a reason why things like ghosts are miserable pitiable existences. There's a reason why 'hallowed' bones cannot be turned into undead (without some serious desecration going on first) - and that's because hallowing the body with proper funerary rites, makes sure they get to their god.

>because it just is
You are only coming to that position because you *disagree* with the previous two, when according to everyone who actually publishes and is 'in charge', disagrees with you. Mindless undead are evil and they're envious and hateful of life, their mere existence literally hastens the unraveling of the fucking universe. The vast majority of sentient undead are also evil because of their connection to the negative energy plane (and usually because they *chose* to become undead).

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>>47246758
>>47246779
I really want to play it so I ended up accepting.
I guess I'll start picking off the players one at a time or something in the name of the queen of Narnia then.

>>47247205
>and hastens universal entropy
>they literally hasten the demise of the world
>no, it *ensnares* the creatures soul, preventing them from making it to the afterlife like they should

Can you source these please? I'd like to read up on Pathfinder's lore actually.

>>47247206
Make your own redemption arc.

>>47247192
Eh, it's generally the good aligned planes that suffer from under-fluffing. Hell and the Abyss have plenty of fluff, Abaddon has a good amount of it as well. Neutral planes got a decent amount of it too.

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>>47247191

It is apparently very important.

Is there any way to get mutagen on a single-class magus?

>>47247227
what exactly do you think the negative energy plane 'aka the place of infinite destruction' does?

Also, google is your friend. I am going to sleep.

>>47247234
Heaven Unleashed is pretty cool, tho. Fixed most issues I had with Heaven.
If only they now also made Nirvana Unleashed and Elysium Unleashed.

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>>47247079
They're not getting all of that at 1st level.

>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/mage-hunter
Polymath (Alchemist) 5 / Mage Hunter X gets most of it eventually. They use the Magus spell list.

Anything else gives up extracts.

>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster
A Mutation Warrior Myrmidon has access to mutagens, and can multiclass into Wizard, then take the Bladecaster prestige class.

Anyone else would have to VMC Alchemist to get mutagens, but that doesn't happen until level 11.

He's going to have to pick 2 or 3 things from that list.

>>47247234
Well that is because you are expected to play good guys, so you are more likely to goto hell to fight stuff then you are to goto celestia and fight stuff.

>>47246981
>So it comes back down to 'undead are evil because someone says so rather than any actual reason'
Yes. Undead are evil because the book says they're evil. Also the fact they want to destroy and consume all life.