Dark Souls LORE THREAD

Why the fuck are there three different versions of Firelink Shrine?

Copypasting stuff from PVP central:

00tn2.blogspot gr/2016/04/dark-souls-3.html

Divine Blessing

Correct translation: "Holy water said to have been blessed by the queen of Lothric. She was the wife to the previous king Osroeth, and even compared to a goddess of fertility and bounty, but she is said to have disappeared after giving birth to their youngest child, Ocelotte."

>-She is COMPARED (例えられた) to a goddess of fertility and bounty, and this wording means that she is most definitely not said goddess. This is probably what the wording"revered as" tried to convey (why would they say an actual goddess is "revered as" that goddess?)

Sun Princess Ring

Correct translation: "Leaving her homeland with many other gods, she became a wife, then a mother, and is said to have gave birth to precious children."

>-"Heavenly children" is just "precious children" in the source text.

Bountiful Light

Correct translation: "A miracle said to have been taught to the knights by Gertrude, the Queen's saint. She who would later become the "Daughter of Angels" was said to have been the queen's child."

>-"Heavenly Daughter" has people drawing connections with this and the Sun Princess Ring, but in the original text this says "Daughter of Angel(s)" and Sun Princess Ring says "proud children".

Gwynevere is not the queen, and Gertrude has nothing to do with Gwynevere.

>LORE QUESTION
>So at this point we can all agree that Lothric was in the middle of a civil war between the red and the blue knights. The blue knights believed in the angels (sneks) so the red knights were probably loyal to the old traditions (sunbros).
>The closer we get to the gaybros the more blues we find. Were the blues protecting them from the reds or were they trying to force them to link the fire? Were the serpents in favour of Lothric or did they want him to be a LoC?

The strategy guides identify the blue knights as the elite royal guard.

The winged fat knights have nothing to do with the other knights (the three on the roof are specifically Gertrude's Three Knights).

>Are Gertrude's Three Knights something mentioned in an item, or is that just a nickname?

That's the actual name of the three flying gold fatties on the roof in the strategy guide.

>So what's the significance of the non-winged fat knights bearing the same blue as the royal guard?

The fat knights were originally Lothric knights too, considering how the gold ones grew actual wings from their angel worship they might have just been regular blue knights (royal guard) that mutated.

Gertrude was the daughter of the queen so her followers being royal guard adds up too.

>>47193207

I assume each one is meant to be a different "era", ie the main hub is in the present, the Graves are in the past at a point where a Chosen Undead has snuffed out the Flame and the final version post-Lords is the future, where we see the world collapsing along with the failing Flame it's been harnessed to. This would explain why the world is Inceptioning towards the bonfire.

>>47193207
The "regular" version is disconnected from all other areas in the game except the ashen graveyard, it's some sort of parallel world

Untended version is the real world version

Final one is just the kiln dragging everything towards itself

>>47193236

I assumed the Golden Knights were the actual "Divine Messengers" and "Angels" referenced in the descriptions of items and their blue-suited lessers were those who followed in their image.

Is Londor meant to be New Londo under a different name and with some shady fucks hanging around in it? Or would it be too consumed by the Abyss to be habitable by anybody?

>>47193326
>consumed by the Abyss
Funny you should mention that, because the Pilgrim Butterflies are listed as having abyss affiliation (extra damage from Artorias greatsword) in the strategy guides.

What caused the unkindled and lords to rise from their grave? A bell, yes, but who rang it?

If all 5 lords were present during the "dark" age of the untended firelink, then who linked the flame to revitalize the world?

>>47193368
I was under the impression that the whole thing was a kind of failsafe system put in place to get the fire linked if the current lord of cinder (prince Lothric in this case) refused to do so.

But when the lords were resurrected all of them ran off to do their own shit, so another failsafe system revived the Unkindled Ones to go fuck them up and drag them back in.

>Aldrich was a “right and proper cleric who developed a habit of devouring men. He ate so many that he bloated like a drowned pig then softened into sludge, so they stuck him in the Cathedral of the Deep and they made him a lord of Cinder. Not for Virtue, but for Might. Such is a lord, I suppose…”.

This bit of dialogue plus the existence of the Princes as Lords of Cinder suggest to me that not all of the Lords linked the flame. How could Aldrich do it if he was locked away in the deep?

>Gwyndolin
>Prince Lothric

What is it with Dark Souls and incredibly feminine men that have never had anything good happen to them in life?

>>47193218
>00tn2.blogspot gr/2016/04/dark-souls-3.html
>Soul Stream
>It should be noted that in Japanese, this is the same spell as "Soul Geyser" in Dark Souls 2. Also, the description of the spell in 2 calling it a family heirloom is erroneous; It is said to be An-Dil's (Aldia's) "legacy", suggesting that he created it.

>"Sorcery imparted by the first of the Scholars, when Lothric and the Grand Archives were but young.

The first of the Scholars doubted the linking of the fire, and was alleged to be a private mentor to the Royal Prince."

>FIRST of the SCHOLARS
>doubted the linking of the fire
>imparts Aldia's legacy

gee I wonder who this could be

http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Irina's+Ashes

>Irina was a frail woman. This frailty led to her becoming a saint of Carim, and to her grand treachery.

So is she the one that caused the grand betrayal that Ludleth talks about?

>>47193911

Well, that would explain all the tree man statues on the archives, not to mention that Lothric's house or bedroom or whatever is literally covered by them on the outside.

>>47193673
I've always been of the opinion that being a Lord of Cinder is a level of power, not a title granted from actually having linked the fire. All we know is that if they did it voluntarily, each of them COULD link the fire themselves (or with their respective partners.)

We KNOW that Yhorm linked the fire, and it's pretty safe to assume that the Watchers did if they were able to (as it would fuck with the spread of the abyss.) The Princes didn't, and it is contested whether or not Aldritch did, but it's safe to assume that both are more than strong enough that they at least could have.


Whats more, other very powerful beings (cough, bosses) are called "Heirs of Fire" meaning they are probably so strong that they could plausibly become a lord of cinder with a little work.

That said, I think it's rather possible that Aldy did link the fire. He was probably locked into the cathedral when they found out that he had been becoming a big scary blob by eating dudes, locked him in there, and force-fed him undead and shit until he was strong enough to link the flame. From there on out, there's no reason to think Pontiff Chuckles McTwoswords wouldn't let him light the fire.

>>47194183

Hawkwood directly states Aldrich became a Lord of Cinder purely because he's so powerful.

>>47194183
I always assumed Sully basically stuffed him in a box then threw him into the fire.

>>47194103
Shit translation at work as usual, it's supposed to say that her frailty/weakness led to her letting everyone down by failing to become a firekeeper.

>>47194183
>The Princes didn't,
They weren't in the intro, and Emma clearly says the lords of cinder aren't in Lothric anymore when the princes clearly are. I don't think they count.

>>47194409
>>47194218
>>47194215
>>47194183
>>47193673

For the record concerning Aldrich.

I think both instances are equally possible/dissimive:

-Aldrich MAY have not linked the fire and only became a lord of cinder out of "power" and not of "virtue" through his actions as realistically speaking: Why would he ever link the fire? Who would ever trick or convince him to do such a thing? Y'know?

on the other hand

-Pontiff Sullyhvan may have literally put Aldrich into a compromising situation where he linked the fire some way or another?? I'm just not sure how or why- It's one of those instances where not a lot adds up, but I'm willing to admit it's plausible.

>>47194496
>: Why would he ever link the fire?
The stuff about him getting scared as fuck about the age of the deep sea sounds like his god eating was some way to prepare for it, and linking the flame would probably have kept it away from some time as well.

>>47194496
Sully doesn't seem to be on good terms with the Aldrich Faithful in any case. He keeps him locked up in a tower, and threw one of the deacons to be fed to his dogs.

>>47194519
>He keeps him locked up in a tower
Actually it says he locked Gwyndolin up in the cathedral as an offering to Aldrich, Aldrich was probably free to come and go as he pleases.

Just noticed that the statues in the Cathedral of the Deep (the particular one I saw was the one along the stairs down to the mimic) depict stuff bursting out of the backs of the pilgrims.

Guess that's where the pilgrim butterflies come from.

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>>47194723

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>>47194890

>Even his shirt is mad

Who is Pontiff ? I thought at first that he was just an Aldrich underling but he seems far more important than that.

Also what's up with the serpents ? People say theyre the angels but what is their plan ? Crashing the kingdom with no survivors ?

>>47195085
>Who is Pontiff ? I thought at first that he was just an Aldrich underling but he seems far more important than that.

Some other Anon will come and answer this better than I could, but Pontiff was/is essentially the man behind the curtain.
Pontiff is responsible for 1/3rd of everything bad happening in dark souls 3 and is the brains behind Aldrich and The Cathedral of The Deep.

>Also what's up with the serpents ? People say theyre the angels but what is their plan ? Crashing the kingdom with no survivors ?

Unclear.
Some people say they're Angels, but I doubt that: The Serpent Statues were put up in the Archives and the Archives and Scholars were loyal to the Lothrics.. Soo???

Kaathe (Is it Kaathe? The Darkstalker?)
Kaathe is of in new londo/londor running the church of londo and fucking around with the hollows- assiting them in country building and trying to usurp the flame from gods.

BEARER OF THE DARKSIGN, LET YOUR TRUE STRENGTH SHINE
goddamn this line shouldve been in the pre release trailers, its so good

Theyre called pilgrim butterfllies, and its clesr the pilgrims wear the rocks on their backs to prevent transformation,
But
The hollows in high wall are very clearly transforming into trees and eventually the butterflies. You can even see their humanoid heads still dangling from the butterflies if they float nearbt you. So what gives? Did the eclipse/angel bullshit turn the lothric citizens into butterflys or did the pilgrims do it on their own? Are the hollows praying/treeforming in high wall just Pilgrims without any clothes? One that didnt die on the bridge?

>>47196077

Well, the cleric set says

"It is said that the blue-robed travelers were entrusted with a duty.

They bore large covers on their backs to ensure that they would not become seedbeds for spreading darkness."

So my complete wild and unfounded assumption is that just like the clerics, the pilgrims were given a task(given that they're from londor it would seem pretty obvious that the task is given by kaathe), and unlike the clerics, they probably do want to spread the darkness. How turning into flying tree monsters accomplishes that? Dunnolol, maybe they release abyss spores or something.

>>47196098
Well, it seems Kaathe and Aldia are behind the whole Gertrude thing and convincing Lothric not to link the fire too
So maybe its all part of some Kekaiku we wont know about til DLC

>>47193157
so I've noticed there are factions of sort in this game, that want their own endings for it.

It looks like the Londor want the entire world to go into darkness? It seems that's what Yuria wants.
And Londor has no connection to Anor Londo? The silver knights don't strike me as the kind to want that sort of thing.

But I also don't think that the Lothric people want the hollowing either, since they have the sun altar in their castle.

So it seems that Anor Londo and Lothric are two sister cities that are on the same side, like Athens and Sparta, while the people like Yuria are coming from Persia?

I've read on /vg/ that the fire is fading and no amount of work will make it relight soon enough, if not now.

What do each of the three endings actually lead to? What is the best way to save humanity in this game? It seems that every choice is a shit choice and I lose anyways.

I read a cool theory another anon came up with that the whole fire cycle is actually just the reproduction cycle of the archtrees.

Which would explain why so many hollows are turning into trees, and maybe explain Frampt and Kaathes machinations as that is the time they hail from.

>>47196239
Have you ever read Berserk? Bittersweet is the best ending you could hope for.
Theres also the blue and red Lothric knights. Reds want the flame linked and serve High priestess Emma, blues want the flame to die and serve Lothric and whatever these "Angels" are (totally not the god hand amirite?)
The Cathedral and Irithyl and all associated groups stopped giving a shit about the fire and want to prepare for an age of the Deep, whatever the fuck that means
Consumed King is like the serpent men, they want the age of ancient dragons back or at least a taste of their power

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>>47196364
Mfw I realized the Kiln seen from a distance is actually on a giant tree stump

>>47194876
>>47194890
>>47194900
What the hell is this?

>>47193157
Yeah I've got a question.

I never played the previous Souls games, got into the series with Bloodborne and am now most of the way through DS3.

Why the fuck is the lore in Dark Souls so garbage and boring compared to Bloodborne, and all feel so disconnected and irrelevant from each other? Do I need to play the first game for any of it to matter? It's like there's not even any actual mystery to solve or substance to the core NPCs like there was with the whole interrelated web of theories with the Doll/Gehrman/Maria/Provost Willem/Laurence.

>>47196475
This game is much closer to a proper sequel than 2 is to 1. Two-thirds of the descriptions namedrop shit from the first game.

>>47196475
Yeah you need to play the first game at least. Or look up the lore, god knows theres a thousand youtube channels that are all about it. DS3 assumes you know the first two games

>>47196492
>>47196498
Alright, I guess I just figured even being a sequel with assumptions about what I already know it would feel a little more compelling and give me more of a desire to actually look up what I'm missing. Right now it's hard for me to even see why anything my character is doing even actually matters. The only thing that's been awesome so far is Siegward.

>>47196448
Seriously, what the hell is this? Anyone?

>>47196571
Its a high dark fantasy, the NPCs arent the big movers and shakers of the world like in BB, theyre little folk swept up in the apocalypse. Its apples and oranges, a different kind of story.

>>47196578
Its a shitty murrican tie in comic that has fuckall to do the games. It has Solaire poorly drawn and a guy named Aldritch that has nothing to do with Aldritch as hes portrayed in the games, starting sn obnoxious boob plate armor Stronk Womyn Mary Sue to boot.
Seriously, why is it that a pit of sexism like japan can write female characters that feel like real people worthy of respect whilebthe west has these cringeworthy cardboard female characters with zero personality.
It should have been a Manga, at least then it would actually have something to do with the plot of the games other than a couple terrible cameos

>>47196239
>What do each of the three endings actually lead to? What is the best way to save humanity in this game? It seems that every choice is a shit choice and I lose anyways.

Here's some context into the available endings:
>Ending 1: To Link The First Flame
You successfully link the first flame; again, but as it shows in the game the flame produced is pitiful, tiny, pathetic and meek. The fire is fading and each time it's rekindled it gets a little weaker a little smaller.
It can't be kept burning forever.

>Ending 2: The End of Fire
You let the fire die and let darkness consume the world as it did in the untended graves. This is not an 'end' to the world, but a new beginning. The age of darkness is quiet, serene, peaceful and cozy in it's own ways and not without hope as "little embers dance in the dark" the flame will relight one day- hopefully refreshed.


>Ending 3: Variation of ending #2
You chicken out at the last moment and attack the firekeeper before she smothers the flame- kindling the flame at the last moment.
You're regarded by the narrator as a piece of shit.

>Ending 4: Usurpation of Fire
I don't completely understand this one, but I think you essentially literally usurp the flame from the control of gods and bring about a "true" age of man, the hollow and one of twilight.... Maybe tie the fire to humanity and the dark sign or something? Hollows all day? Make Londor great again?

>>47196364
The hollows turning into trees only occurs in undead settlement. This is because of the influence of the Curse-rotted Greatwood. The greatwood was used to store all manner of foul curses, but became corrupted itself. It's likely that its influence has begun to work backward - allowing it to infect cursed creatures, such as hollows.

>>47196791
This would be a nice theory but I'm pretty sure there are corpse-trees in Lothric, along with Hollows worshiping them.

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>>47193853
Maybe Dark Souls is just being realistic ?

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"Oh to savor the sweet pungency but once more..."

"Though the stench makes it difficult to carry on one's person, inflicting toxins on an enemy yields high damage over time. Perhaps some Undead have fond memories of waste. Or, perhaps not."

It must be kind of funny being undead for so long that you reach a point where you look back to even the experience of having to POOP with nostalgia.

>>47196239
I read Londor not as being Anor Londo but being New Londo. It's fully of hollows, Kaathe fucks around with it, they need a new kind now that the original four are dead.
Seems to fit.

>>47196726
Considering Yuria mentions being in service to Kaathe, Ending 4 is basically a true age of man (or what's left of it anyway). You take the place of the Gods since there are none left except maybe Velka, and start a new kingdom Gwyn-style, but with hollows. And, y'know, with no actual heirs since you're a hollow and your wife has a sword in her

>>47196842
I've always wondered; if undead can't poop, where do the caged hollows get all their ammunition?

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>>47193157
I know he's the most popular and most well-known guy when it comes to Dark Souls lore but I hear that people think he's wrong all the time. How so?

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>>47196851
>And, y'know, with no actual heirs since you're a hollow and your wife has a sword in her

She's actually there at the end credits kneeling with everybody else.

She's easy to miss, so I took a screenshot from a youtube vid and circled where she was.
But, no, yeah: she survives the ritual dude, she's undead.

>>47196903
to be fair, dark souls is pretty flip-floppy on the topic of who can and can't stay dead

>>47193236
What even causes people to grow angel wings
What causes that one group of enemies to grow four wings, the same number of wings the dragons of the age of ancients had

>>47196898
>How so?

I haven't heard that; what I've been hearing is /v/ & /vg/'s hate for him since he essentially just stole all of /v/'s lore findings when they were systematically breaking down every single piece of lore from ds1 down.

Vaatividya took all the information he had skimmed from threads; did up some videos and uploaded them on to youtube. His first lore video has 1.3 million views.

/vg/ Is SO suspicious that Vaati is scanning them for lore that they refuse to discuss lore.

>>47196936
You mean the Corvians? They're simply creatures of Velka, wandering the roads once the Painted World was destroyed. It's likely they're attracted to the Sin-soaked Road of Sacrifices, and all the atrocities that have been committed along its route. However, they also show up off the sacrificial path, near Farron Keep's entrance, so maybe they just migrated to Farron and the Road from Irithyll, since that's where the Painted World used to be.

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>>47194890

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>>47196898
Possibly this >>47196956 , possibly also that it is /v/ and he's popular, so they are contract-bound to hate him.

>>47196695
That Stronk Womyn Mary Sue is actually Gwyndolin so
>Not even a female

>>47194569
Aldritch is basically mindless by the time the game takes place I think.

>>47193207
>>47193255
>>47193267
What I gathered from the last thread was that Gundyr was supposed to link the Flame, but he didn't make it to the Kiln in time. This is the present time that most areas of the game exist in and found in Untended Graves. Ludleth then used his powers to create a pocket dimension or some other discontinuum fuckery, which resulted in the Firelink the Ashen One uses as a hub. It's disconnected in time from the other areas of the game but time in there has passed enough for corruption to set into Gundyr while he waited for a worthy Ashen One. Apparently also if you never talk to the Handmaiden in the hub Firelink, then talk to the Handmaiden in Untended Graves, the hub Handmaiden will remember you.
The last Firelink is the place at the end of time when the realms of the Lords have contracted into a small space around the Kiln.
Short answer: they all exist in different times but are the same place.

>>47196956
His found in translation videos are literally stolen from the blog in >>47193218

So, theory on the Deep: it's the opposite of Fire.

When the First Flame appeared it sparks disparity; the souls of Life/Death (witch/nito) and light/dark (gwyn/Pygmy).

One disparity mentioned in the DS1 opening that isn't represented by the Lord souls is heat and cold, represented by the First Flame and its opposite.

>>47197659
It's possible that the Deep may have disparities all its own, but I do like the idea of an Age of Water running in contrast to the Age of Fire.

What's a good system for running a Dark Souls game?

>>47197659
>>47197677
Note how the deep spells have weird splashing water effects and sounds, too.

Also:

The deep 深み The deep / the depths 深み

Abyss 深淵 Abyss 深淵

Deep Sea 深海 Deep Sea 深海 Some people claim this is a mistranslation of abyss. It's not. 深 = deep, 海 = sea, ocean. Straightforward as you can get.

However, the Japanese words for "deep" and "abyss" both do have connotations of water (all the kanji involved use the sanzui-hen, which signifies water).

>>47197689
Depends on what you want to focus on. You could do it with DCC, modified Savage Worlds, or even something tactics focused like Strike!.

>>47197696
additionally, glowing red eyes seem to be a common sign of abyss corruption, and the Deacons all have this as well as the Abyss Watchers who attack the others.

The text for Deep Protection mentions that the Deep was once a holy place until it became host to many abhorrent and horrible things (which fits the water theme - an agent of purification becoming tainted). It's possible that the Deep is just some new 'strain' of the Abyss.

>>47196726
You can also just walk away from the firekeeper when you're given the option to kill her. You don't get her final lines.

>>47197659
>>47197696
It's at least related to Humanity. Deep Soul says "souls which swell from the deep pursue their target, drawn towards life", exactly the same as the dark sorceries/hexes which are formed of Humanity/abyss, plus of course the fact that they deal dark damage.

I do still think the separate disparity of fire and 'water' could work. Could be that Embers and Dregs are both what remains of Humanity, originally burning with a black flame. The former all but burnt out through the continual cycles of the first flame, and the latter a result of Humanity avoiding the fire for too long and extinguishing through oversaturation among itself with no flame, but kept going through the power of souls.

I'm still not sure what to make of the Profaned Flame, though. It's definitely not the Chaos Flame, that's specifically said to be dead. It's entire thing is that fire is supposed to fade, to cycle, but this flame is Profaned because it defies that natural state and just continues to burn eternally. That it's originally called Flame of Sin in the same way that Aldia is the Scholar of the First Sin makes me think it's related to Gwyn's first linking of the fire.

>>47196791
>he didnt even pay attention to the area around the first fucking bonfire after you leave firelink for the first time
There an almost fully butterly tree hollow RIGHT THERE in High Wall. Numerous more nearby. Your blind.

So why are failed versions of the consumed king locked all the way in Irithyl Dungeon? Those white creepy things have little wings

>>47196791
There's undead turning into trees all over Lothric. Pretty sure that the general implication with them and the Pus of Man is that everything is trending toward the Age of Ancients once again, living creatures either becoming archtrees or dragons. It's all only halfway at the point we enter though, since instead of great enormous archtrees it's just shitty little fledgling birch trees and instead of everlasting dragons they're pale, sickly wyverns. but I think, given enough more time, it'd get there eventually.

>>47197256
Please dont tell me thats actually in the comic

>>47197813
Oceiros was presumably still fairly active as king before becoming so consumed with his research, and since Irithyll is part of the Kingdom of Lothric, Oceiros would've been well within his rights to have them sent there, out of sight. Probably didn't have them just executed because, even as failures, they're still part dragon in his eyes, and he felt some affinity with them, but not enough to want to keep them around to remind him of his failure.

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>>47193157
oh neato, a Das lore thread in /tg/

i'm looking forward to the board game. i hope it allows for an open world and isn't too linear in its design.

on the topic of lore, i made this timeline of what i believe happened between Das2 and Das3. Let me know what y'all think so I can edit it, I want it to be as accurate as possible

>>47197759
The Profaned Flame is more Abyss fuckery, it seems like. The Profaned Coal is a remnant of it, and Andre mentions he sees the Abyss in it. It was described as a flame that only burned living creatures, never went out, and came out of the sky. Shit maybe it was a radioactive meteor

>>47197759
>I'm still not sure what to make of the Profaned Flame, though. It's definitely not the Chaos Flame, that's specifically said to be dead. It's entire thing is that fire is supposed to fade, to cycle, but this flame is Profaned because it defies that natural state and just continues to burn eternally. That it's originally called Flame of Sin in the same way that Aldia is the Scholar of the First Sin makes me think it's related to Gwyn's first linking of the fire.

I was thinking more of the Lost Sinner who was said to have also tried to recreate the First Flame. We know what happened to the Chaos Flame, but we never really found out what happened to the Lost Sinner's version.

Flame of Sin

Sinner's Flame

>>47197859
I only really see one glaring issue with your plotline: Yorshka would not be spared because she was of dragonkin. The Painted World was destroyed by the Cathedral of the Deep and Priscilla's half-dragon blood didn't save her from being eaten by Aldrich.

>>47197859
It wasn't necessarily Shiva's ninja who you find in the King's Garden. It mentions that many different assassins attempted to attack Oceiros, but never succeeded because of his dragon scales making him backstab-immune.

Also
>Giant Blacksmith killed by Vordt for no reason
>Knightess killed by Dancer for also no reason - and her body is found in the secret darkmoon temple
>vordt and dancer are outrider knights, meant to serve in foreign lands and are thus never actually found in irithyll
watchu talkin bout

>>47197929
>Priscilla's half-dragon blood didn't save her from being eaten by Aldrich.
Literally never happened.

The scythe is a spell Aldrich gained from eating Gwyndolin.

>>47197859
>fanfiction.net

>>47197929
The lifehunt power was gained from Gwyndolin's memories of Priscilla, it's just an illusory version, thus he doesn't have the true Lifehunt ability. What happened to Priscilla after that is unclear.

>>47197929
Yorshka is Ocellotte, she wasnt even around yet

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>>47197929
As several anons brought up, I believe the lifehunt ability came to Aldrich purely from eating Gwyndolin

>>47197941
True, but i felt that it would make the most sense seeing as the Easterner's Ashes are in Anor Londo

You're right about these, i tend to go into the graphic novel mindset when thinking of the timeline and imagine how exactly the siege would have gone.

I'll delete the Vordt and Dancer stuff and post an updated version of the timeline every new thread

>>47197973
some parts, certainly. but it's fun and isn't too left field

>>47197941
If you pay attention to the outroder knight ghosts walking through irithyll two of them are Vordt and Dancer before they became more beastlike. Havent seen the vordt myself but I saw the dancers helm on one female ghost quite clearly

Priscilla is firstborn's daughter, he betrayed the gods for the dragons because he was sleeping with one. Priscilla was locked up because her existence is taboo but kept alive because she's Gwyn's granddaughter.

Priscilla is the queen of Lothric, her child Ocelotte inherits her invisibility ability.

>>47198032
the second one isn't Vordt, it's just an outrider knight like the ones we fight before the swamp

>>47198035
Then arent Lorian and Lothric halfbreeds. Not to mention Lothric has miracles so strong they that can revive the dead, something I think only Gwynevere could pull off

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>>47198031
>that pic
I'm glad other people discovered that

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>>47198078
>2016
>still falling for the queen is gwynevere meme

>>47198032
Yes, and? Of course they were once in irithyll. But you'll notice they're walking toward the city gates - preparing to leave on their journey. How does any of this imply they killed Knightess or the Giant? Wouldn't it make more sense that the Knightess (who served the Darkmoon) would have died defending Gwyndolin? And the Giant may simply have died of natural causes, if there is such a thing for giants - he's in the same place he worked, no signs of struggle, and Andre mentions his passing must have been long ago.

>>47198099
>Divine Blessings in DS1
>Created by Gwynevere, goddess of fertility
>Divine Blessings in DS3
>Created by Queen of Lothric, praised as a goddess of fertility
it's not difficult

>>47197864
Maybe it's aliens and whatever they have instead of Humanity!
But actually, thinking on it, what it may instead be is the fire of the dying sun. The sun, 'melting', bleeding, whatever you want to call it, leaking from its surface onto the earth. The sun is intrinsically linked with the first flame, it's the main example of the light bought about by it and the Lord Souls, and it doesn't exist in the Age of Ancients shown in the DS1 intro. And the sun dying and bleeding happens when the fire is very close to dying, it happens in the latter part of the game, and has very likely happened before, as the flame edges ever closer to extinguishing, and linking it now has diminishing returns. It strongly resembles the Dark Sign, it's a sign of the world trending back towards a state of undying everything. And this started happening during the time leading up to Yhorm's linking of the fire, the sun's flame touched down on whatever the Profaned Capital used to be, coming down from the sky, and incinerated it. Yhorm linked the flame in an effort to sever the connection, hoping it'd extinguish the flame, but either it naturally persisted, or it was kept going by the channelers/jailers/whatever they are standing around the great vessel of the profaned flame outside Yhorm's throne room.
Of course I don't have much basis for this line of thought, but I think it makes sense. maybe I'm just talking out of my ass.

>>47198031
>>47197990
>>47197965
Right, it's said that he dreamt of her, which is why it's only available as a miracle, as a tale of the gods, rather than the physical object.

>>47198120
"praised as" =/= "is" It's not unreasonable to think that they're separate people. There's evidence for either side.

>>47197859
I've got a different theory regarding Shiva. Recall that the Chaos Blade is found in Untended Graves, which is behind Oceiros' boss room. Perhaps Shiva intended to discover its location by interrogating Yorshka, or her father?

Or hell, maybe he was just farming the knights for their Greatbows so he could actually use all the onislayer arrows he was carrying.

>>47198106
Im not the fanfiction guy numbnuts

So who the dink is Rosaria? Is she meant to be some kind of Deep-corrupted version of Gwynevere? Why is one of her man-grubs hanging out in the archives near the Angel's cage?

>>47198195
Then what exactly are you trying to point out?

>>47198211

One of Gywnevere's daughters. The rebellious one who ran away from home and joined her boyfriend's dickwraith covenant.

>>47198211
>So who the dink is Rosaria?
One of Gwynevere's handmaidens, presumed since her soul gives Bountiful Sunlight.
>Why is one of her man-grubs hanging out in the archives near the Angel's cage?
Probably researching stuff in the Archives for Rosaria, took an interest in the giant empty cage, climbed up there.

>>47198120

>>47193218

>>47193267
>it's some sort of parallel world

No it's the past. It you speak to the handmaiden first in Dark Firelink, she will recognize you when you speak to her in current Firelink.

>>47198211
She's Gwynevere, Leonard makes it pretty clear. Anyone arguing otherwise clearly hasn't done his quest.

>>47197911
A second tentative to create an eternal flame maybe, one that went slightly less wrong than the first?

The Lost Sinner had the soul of the Witch of Izalith and attempted to relight the First Flame. The women of the Profaned Capital were said to be of the blood of a certain oracle. I guess they are related to the Lost Sinner and to the witch of Izalith somehow, and they used that connection to attempt to create Chaos Flame 2.0.

Of course what Izalith could not have done in the age of the god, some half-breed from nowhere could not. They fucked less: the flame is less dangerous than the Chaos Flame, though it killed everything.

Lots of speculah though.

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>>47198319
THIS

the whole "I'll make her right again" attitude from Leonhard, going to Gwynevere's bedroom and finding the sun princess ring, and the bountiful sunlight all scream Rosaria is Gwynevere to me

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>>47193157
Any board game hype? Just a few days left. Did you back it?

I'm backing it for the core game, the Darkroot expansion, Kalameet, and Gaping Dragon. Way more than I initially thought to spend but unless they announce something exceptionally good I'm done with my contributions

>>47198337
She's most probably one of her daughters. Gwynevere is said to have had numerous children. It is also possible the queen is one of her daughters.

What justification for Irithyll being the Painted World is there beyond "winter wonderland with gothic architecture"?

>>47198333

I wonder... we know that the Chaos flame finally went out, but we don't really know why. It seems unlikely that it lasted this long just to poof because of simple old age.

Could it be that the Profaned Flame, while being technically a new flame, actually replaced the old Chaos Flame? The Chaos Flame was created out of the Witch of Izalith experimenting on her own Lord Soul, and souls don't go out or die, they just reform later in other (often similar but different) forms.

So either the Chaos Flame 'reincarnated' as the Profane Flame, or the creation of the Profane Flame sucked the metaphysical life out of the Chaos Flame and caused it to go dark?

>>47198548

That, plus the fact that it overlaps on Anor Londo and we have another half-dragon crossbred hanging around.

>>47198548
You need a small doll to enter.

>>47198557
>It seems unlikely that it lasted this long just to poof because of simple old age.

That's literally what flames do.

>>47198589

The Chaos Flame endured for thousands of years even by the time of Dark Souls 2, in spite of multiple attempts to destroy it by Anor Londo and the Ivory King. And it didn't seem to be getting any weaker.

It persisted through many, many cycles of linking the fire, when the fire began to fade throughout the rest of the world over and over again. It seems unlikely that it just died all at once on its own just cause.

>>47198626
Or maybe It's a portal to another realm infested with demons, and the demons were linking it or something and eventually stopped so it faded, who knows.

What is certain is that it's not as strong as the original flame which continually fades, so it's not a stretch to assume a weaker flame will die easier, especially when nobody is linking it.

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>>47198548
There isn't any. Painted world is essentially a prison cell with a difficult to figure out door. It's a real, physical place that almost nobody can enter or leave.

Anyways, we know these guys are in the process of becoming pilgrim butterflies, yes? If pilgrim butterflies are abyss-affected hollows, then it seems that reverence for the abyss has become a thing amongst hollows. What else would explain the worship of the metamorphosing undead?

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>>47198656
My question really is this: Why do some hollows become butterflies and others become horrible abyss-monsters?
Actually, let's go even further. What's the reason behind the different variety of hollows, between the butterfly-morphs, abyss monsters, and the leech hollows (not the big bloated guys by Rosaria, but rather the ones whose bodies seem to be full of leeches)?

>>47198557
What if the Profaned Flame is the result of the Chaos Flame going out, a la that bullshit attack by Old Demon King?

>>47198711
Same reason why some people become hollow and the rest don't. It'll never be answered.

>>47198711
>What's the reason behind the different variety of hollows, between the butterfly-morphs, abyss monsters, and the leech hollows (not the big bloated guys by Rosaria, but rather the ones whose bodies seem to be full of leeches)?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems each of these types keep to themselves; the leech hollows seem to congregate around the cemetery for example. So it would stand to reason that either

a.) the Hollow types are drawn together by something
or
b.) the metamorphosis a hollow goes through is based on some localized effect; which could be, say, the effect of the nearest Lord, or possibly the (religious) beliefs shared by many in a particular area.

>>47198711
Someone mentioned before that the world is going back to how it was before the flame: dragons and archtrees. Maybe these butterflies are abbyss corrupted versions of the archtrees while the black thingies are abbyss corrupted dragons?

We see hollows turn into trees and for example rats turn into dragons, so maybe some hollows still have their humanity run rampant, causing them to become these abbyss creatures?

>>47198727
I by more into the Lost Sinner fucking it up. Profaned means to disrespect and/or desecrate.
Chaos has no order, so in the Sinner attempting to recreate or w/e the flame, it was going against it's core, resulting in the flame becoming profaned.

>>47198769
buy*

>>47198735
Actually, we know the answer to that already. undead hollow and go mad (which I'd say is the more important thing) because they have given up on their mission, whatever it is.

Hollowing itself stems from a lack of Humanity.
Now here's a good question: Were Effigies in DaS2 an attempt to create artificial Humanities?

>>47198785
Sorry, I meant why some humans get the mark and others just die.

>>47198794
That basically happens at random, like genetic mutations and shit, as humanity reverts into its original, undying, but soulless form. There is no system to explain, because there isn't one, as far as anyone knows.

>>47198785
Your questions are making my head hurt and I like it.

Are the dragon(s) present in DaS1, DaS2 (during Drangleics hey-day) and in DaS3 (during Lothrics hey-day) a sub-species of the everlasting dragons?

>>47198756
The Leech Hollows are in Irithyll Dungeon as well, apparently as prisoners. The place was run by Sulyvahn so maybe there was something undesirable about them.

I just realized something. Where the fuck is the Congregation at the Cathedral of the Deep? Everyone there is either a deacon, a hollow in what appears to be cleric robes, a cathedral knight, or a thrall (slave).
Where are the worshipers? The only undead there that aren't explicitly associated with the Cathedral are the Leech Hollows in the graveyard and Seigward, which hardly count.

Was the entire place created just to be a spot to feed people to Aldrich? Why would Rosaria be there, then?

>>47198881
Rosaria was imprisoned there by Aldritch, I thought

>>47198881
>The Leech Hollows are in Irithyll Dungeon as well, apparently as prisoners.

Could be that they were just stashed away as snacks in case Aldritch gets hungry for something less godly.

Do note that both areas where the leech hollows exist are linked to the Cathedral of the Deep. And they seem to embody the sin of gluttony, like Aldritch (leeches body being built to suck blood and bursting from the stomach of hollows).

>>47198851
They're mostly thought to be dumbed-down versions of the everlasting dragons, corrupted and not-everlasting.
Kalameet was stated to have been the last true dragon, implying it was everlasting. Sinh definitely used to be everlasting and Gaping Dragon could've been before it got corrupted to hell and beyond. The Drakes in DS2 and Wyverns in DS3 are explicitly not everlasting dragons but later descendants.

>>47198794
Luck. I'm not being facetious. Luck is something men have and gods don't.

>>47198881
Maybe it's like how Scientology works. They don't have random visitors or people that dable who attend mass and live by tenets, but are all uniformed and united. There is no outsider, simply differing ranks and how much power they wield.

>>47198656
>If pilgrim butterflies are abyss-affected hollows
The strategy guides have them listed as abyss monsters, FYI.

>>47198973
Is the strategy guide available to d/l anywhere?
Is it worth even downloading for the lore tidbits?

>>47198881
>Was the entire place created just to be a spot to feed people to Aldrich?
This is the impression I got. The whole name implies this, as Aldrich's main motivation is his fear of the Deep. That's why he moved onto wanting to devour more than men aka gods, to prepare for the coming of the deep.
Rosaria could be there because her powers were useful for some of the research Aldrich did before he became a mindless mass of slime.

>>47193157
Isn't Souls lore just meaningless drivel Miyazaki makes up when he takes a pee break, which fans desperately try to stitch something coherent out of?

>>47198973
Right, so I don't get why people think that they're the hollows that are turning into trees. Their name is Pilgrim Butterflies, so it implies that they're some form of the pilgrims like Yoel, who follow the Sable Church and Kaathe, who seeks the Age of Dark through humanity/abyss. The Pilgrims were seeking Lothric so they could 'die' and become the Pilgrim Butterflies.

>>47198983
For the lore tidbits, maybe. It's a shit guide otherwise, Prima really dropped the ball. bamco should've stuck with Futurepress, dunno why they didn't.

Anybody got any good Path of the Dragon related headcanon?

Personally I don't get what's desirable about becoming a dragon. Weren't the dragons immortal but also soul-less and not really alive or dead in the first place? Would you just set there in dragon-nirvana for eternity? Or would starting as a human make you into a dragon with a soul?

>>47198851
00tn2.blogspot dot ca/2014/11/dark-souls-and-dragonswyvernsdrakeswyrm.html

>>47199099
It might not be desirable to you, and it's probably not to a majority of people. Most try to outlive the undead curse through souls keeping them from going hollow. Followers of the Path of the Dragon want to get past it by becoming undying and eternal, forgoing souls altogether. Just a peaceful eternity.

>>47199099
What the followers of the Path believe and what the truth is is probably more or less unrelated.

I suspect most of them were like "Dragons are strong and immortal, I want that!"

>>47197813
Just some lads that adored dragons so much they tried to become like them trough self-mutilation and some twisted majicks of the grand archive.

>>47198983
>>47199068
The prima guide has some wacky errors where a bunch of item descriptions are replaced with ones from cut content, though.

>>47199138
>forgoing souls altogether. Just a peaceful eternity.
Fun fact, those "dead" dragon followers meditating in the dungeon and on the peak? If you hit them, they bleed.

Alright, so let me get this straight.

Everything is pygmies, and depending on what aspect of the First Flame they acquire, they either turn into a Skeleton, a Witch, a Human or a God.

The problem with Humans is their aspect is the Dark Soul, which unlike the others is unlimited, however it doesn't actually give off any sort of glorious radiance (drive and ambition) or mentally nourishing light (sapience and knowledge,) that's what feeding off the First Flame itself is for. When the First Flame starts puttering out, the big ole goopy hole that leads into the Dark Soul opens up, revealing the Dark Sign. The Dark Sign is, quite literally, an unplugged hole into the soul; the longer someone has a Dark Sign, the more Souls (both the Dark Soul and "Souls", or the Light Soul which is the aspect of the First Flame) leak out until the Undead starts hemorrhaging their raw Dark Soul until absolutely nothing is left inside them. When nothing's left inside them, they turn "Hollow", also known as becoming a pygmy. For example, Gwyn used his soul as fuel for the First Flame, and in the process became "Hollow" and reverted to his pygmy form.

Am... Am I understanding this right?

>>47194409
Lothric IS a LoC despite not linking the flame, Emma is just lying to lead you away from them.

>>47199099
>>47199138
>>47199139

Dragon worship is canonically a very simple form of religion, and there are plenty of people that desire it.

"Dragon strong. Dragon live forever. Follow us and become dragon." Is a *very* appealing doctrine for people tired of politics, dogma and feasting off the corpse of Manus, the Primordial man.

>>47199214
Why did she lie? Was she hoping that Lothric would change his mind so he wouldn't need to be brought back to his throne as a decapitated pile of cinders?

And when Emma summons you after you off the 3rd lord, why is she on the ground? Was she attacked by someone?

>>47199216
>feasting off the corpse of Manus, the Primordial man
I can't see it described like that and not hear in my head, "You know what you guys need?"

>>47199164
Right, probably the fate that awaits them. Which, technically, they got what they wanted.

>>47199191
Basically.

>>47199274
She was probably attacked by the Dancer, on orders from the late Pontiff to keep you from getting to Lothric, to keep the fire from getting linked.

>>47198711
Hi Vaati!

>>47199138

But don't you have to murder all the others highlander style in order to actually become a dragon?

>>47199346

No.

Hawkwood was a failure even at failing. He wanted to kill you because you did what he could not, and desired all your stones because finding them himself is too much effort.

>>47199001
It's fucking skubtastic, but are you saying you don't need skub to sustain your mortal form?

Man, Seathe really was a bitch, wasn't he?

>>47199346
Yeah, but compared to other esoteric methods people have used to dodge dying and not going mad (Seath's crystals, Aldia's wtf, or Vendrick's magical crowns), doing reptile highlander is pretty fucking simple.

>>47199362

Why don't we just feed off the skub of other humans?

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>>47199330
Oh please. I'm no thief.
Inb4 Vaati fucking quotes my post word for word in a video

Also, what the fuck happened to Lothric here? Is Kiln a sudden jump through time like Untended graves was, except forward instead of backward?

>>47199373

Didn't Aldia canonically discover a way to go beyond death? That's kind of what I got from item descriptions and the SOTFS new ending.

>>47198785

Hollowing is people reverting to their natural state. How can it be said to be madness? Surely madness is what we have before.

>>47199390
That's the most accepted theory with the biggest fan base.
The kilns always had a peculiar effect on time and it's no different here.

>>47199397
IIRC he found a way to stop (not reverse) the curse, but it only worked with all of the kings' crowns. Even then, it only could stop the curse on a single person.

Though Aldia being a teleporting tree-man might have meant he found his own way to immortality. IIRC he didn't die at the end of DaSII, he decided that the Bearer of the Curse was a "True Monarch" and fucked off.

>>47199191
Gwyn being so small by the end of DS1 is probably a result of him dividing his soul so much and burning most of it in relinking the flame. How powerful your soul is seems to affect physical size, but it's unclear how much hollowing affects this since giants are still big when hollow.
We don't really know what created the different races but as you say, something about what aspect of the First Flame they acquire is probably right. This goes hand-in-hand with how powerful the souls received are is, what with giants being big as shit and the larger-than-human race that Knights and many others seem to be.
We also don't know how the Darksign manifests on races other than Humans or Giants or if it manifests at all. Probably does since it's tied to hollowing so strongly, but how much is it tied to the Dark Soul is up for debate.

>>47199373
>Seath's crystals
This has resulted in madness in every known case.

>>47199502
Does that explain why Vendrick was big, though? We know he hollowed by somehow removing his own soul and hiding it, but that doesn't explain everything.

>>47199509
Yeah, I forgot about that.

>>47199535
He was a large guys because of crashing drangleic with no survivors 4 u

>>47199390
Kiln in DS1 was already speculated to exist in a different time or dimension because of the white light stairs you enter it through.
What appears to be happening in DS3 is not only time is convoluted, but space too. The Firelink Shrine you visit all the time exists in the future relative to the other areas and all the areas have been drawn much closer to each other than they were originally. The realms of the lords are drawing together or something like that.
So in the future, the realms have drawn so close they've becomed bunched up around the Kiln.

>>47199535
On the topic of Vendrick, the thing he stole from the giants was the Throne of Want, which is basically the Kiln, right? And he plundered it from the giants because Nashandra told him to do it since she wanted to usurp the flame?

>>47199361

But what about the twinkling dragon head stone description?

>The road to the old dragons is long and arduous, and only one can complete the journey.

>>47199458
>>47199397
Forget fucking off, Aldia is Lothric's tutor.

>>47199587
It's not a team effort. If two of you band together to complete it, only one will be able to succeed.

>>47199587
I mean, only one person can kill Aldrich of the Deep too, but somehow you and Anri can both do that.

>>47197859
There's nothing to suggest events happened so close to one another, and PLENTY to suggest that there was a large time gap between games.
A lot of these are assumptions that frankly have absolutely no basis whatsoever like Vordt killing the Giant Blacksmith and others are outright wrong such as Sulyvahn invading Anor Londo and Smough getting killed then.
Smough is 100% canon dead by the end of DS1. Irythil and Suly's church were long since built on and around the ruins of Anor Londo, they worshipped the Gods like Gwyndolin that still inhabited the place, and treated their descendants as royalty (Dancer's set description).
Either Suly had malicious intentions from the beginning or was corrupted somewhere along the line but it's pretty clear at least that the populace of Irythil and the Deep Church are being manipulated while thinking they're doing good. And plus, where would Suly have invaded from? Did they bring Irythil with them?

>>47199605
I think that's just a gameplay mechanic so you can complete Anri's quest without summoning her for the fight, which would enturbulate some players for taking the challenge out of the fight.

>>47199615
What makes Smough canonically dead in DS1? We thought that Ornstein was dead, aside from speculation that Old Dragonslayer was Dark-corrupted Ornstein, until you find the Dragonslayer armor and spear at Archdrake Peak.

It's not improbable that the O&S fight is another of Gwyndolin's illusions.

>>47199584
Yep. Nashandra wanted to usurp the flame and basically become the new Manus.
Apparently with Manus Shards the smaller the shard is the more powerful it gets.
Don't remember why whats-her-face decided turning herself into a bunch of ash piles was a good idea, though.

>>47199647
It's possible that she might've tried to usurp like the Lord of Hollows ending in 3.

>>47199535
No idea. It seems removing his soul made him hollow so that's one way to go about making it happen, if not necessarily what happens to everyone that hollows. Based on what happened to Gwyn, I'd more have expected Vendrick to be down in size a lot too.

>>47193853
isn't gwyndolin actually a woman?

What exactly do you become after usurping the flame?

Wouldn't it make you a Lord/Witch/Skelton/Everything since your race is based on what part of the flame you inherited?

>>47199710

You become something entirely unique, because you have every aspect of the First Flame within you.

>>47199704

No, he's a trap. The games make that pretty clear.

>>47199605
>>47199645
A fairly big theory is that each 'chosen undead' actually inhabits their own parallel world, and occasionally they intersect, which is where you encounter NPCs in person. So you helped Anri kill Aldrich in their world, and also kill the Aldrich in yours. That's why the soapstones only allow you to temporarily enter another world as a phantom, because you're physical body is still in your own world.

>>47199704
Gwyndolin is a male who was raised like a daughter because of his affinity for the moon.

>>47199666
You'd know, wouldn't you satan

>>47199704
No it's stated several times Gwyndolin is a male raised as a female.
Hence the snakes.
Snakes are deceitful and associated with women.

>>47199731
I would've thought that with Anri, but her presence in the Firelink shrine might not make that the case. As with her integral role in the Lord of Hollows ending.

Gwyndolin is:
>Part serpent
>Associated with moonlight
>Seems to be close to the two half-dragons

Seath cucked Gwyn right?

>>47199749
FL shrine is outside time/space and it's own pocket reality. Hence Andre being there for example.

>>47199766
No damian, he did not.

>>47199710
We don't know that skeletons are a separate race. Seeing how Nito is First of the Dead, it could be that the power of his soul creates the moving skeletons from other race's corpses.
Additionally, we know that the First Flame somehow affects dragons in a way that lesser dragon-like creatures come into being, from DS1's drakes to DS3's ancient wyverns.
The giants aren't aligned with any of the Lord Souls and not all knight-sized people are aligned with Gwyn's soul.
Pretty sure that's not even everything that doesn't fit into the discrete division of the Lord Souls.

>>47199766
No, since lunar faith is different than sorcery. Pontiff Sulyvahn's Sword of Judgement shows how the two can get mistaken for the same thing though.

>>47199647
Nadalia coveted power, which she could have acquired trough the old iron king had he not become a demon and fucked off, so she split her soul and smeared it all over the ''heirlooms'' of the king.

>>47199749
>>47199768
Yeah, plus it being physically disconnected from the rest of Lothric. You go to the physical Firelink Shrine via the Untended Graves. I heard that the Firelink Shrine we go to was conjured up by Ludleth in support of the next potential Lord of Cinder, but I can't remember specifically where that information was sourced.

>>47199768
Yeah I realized that as soon as I posted since Lautrec is from another world and he's present at the Firelink Shrine.

>>47199749
Solaire in DS1 appeared to physically exist in your game, but could be summoned as a phantom from his own world and would go on to link the fire in his own reality if you went through his entire questline. Time and space are convoluted in these games.

>>47199766
Who ever said Seath was male?

Gwyn fucked Seath.

>>47199787
Also DS2 had the Milfanito and Grave Warden Agdayne which were presumably related to Nito's kindred.

>>47199822
Simple, Seath is a duke, not a duchess.

Has anyone else noticed that you pick up the ashen flask from Anri's corpse in the cemetary? Not just the armor, it has Anri's sword too.

>>47199833
Touche but the titles in the game are all wonky to begin with.
Abyss Watchers comes to mind

>>47199833
According to the English releases the Throne Watcher and Lady Maria are dudes too so it's entirely possible that it's a mistranslation.

>>47199787

Presumably the First Flame effects the dragons by making them subject to the concepts brought on by disparity like life/death. Basically they can't be gray nothing anymore, they turn into living creatures that can die.

Which reminds me, was Seath's problem that he had a soul? The other everlasting dragons just seemed like mindless gray statues, but Seath obviously wasn't.

>>47199874
I hadn't but I'll take a closer look in a minute. That seems pretty cool

>>47199895
Seath might have been one of the first dragons affected by the first flame, he was scaleless but coveted the immortality of the everlasting dragons. If he was born before the flame, he was one gigantic anomaly I must say.

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>>47199901

>>47199822
>Gwyn fucked Seath.
Not confirmed. It could've been the firstborn, as speculated by some anon, or someone else. Or it might not have been Seath at all who got fucked and he might indeed be a male.

>>47199895
The soul drove him mad from what I recall but he was always fucked up due to being an everlasting dragon that wasn't everlasting

>>47199930
Shiiiiiiiiiit. I recognized the armor but after meeting Anri for the first time I didn't make the connection at all.

>>47199938
Wouldn't firstborn have brought his half-dragon children with him when running off to hang out with the dragons?

Plus both Priscilla and Yorshka are really white, and Seath's Japanese title is "White Dragon Seath".

>>47199941
>>47199895
Crystal research is what drove Seath mad.
His soul was a shard of Gwyn's, so presumably he didn't have one before he became Duke.

>>47199930
So Anri in our world is dead, and the FL Anri is a 2nd one while the Anri that summons us is a 3rd? That's a severe mind fuck.

>>47199941

I wasn't talking about the piece of Gwyn's lord soul, I mean it seemed like Seath had a soul from the beginning unlike his gray dragon pals.

>>47199959
Maybe Seath fucked some lady? Nothing explicitly says that Priscilla's ancestry features gods.

What's the deal with crystals anyway? Why did the dragon's need the primordial crystal to make them double immortal?

>>47199964
Aren't FL Anri and the one that summons us the same one?

We fight two Gundyrs too, and one is in the same area as dead Anri, so...

>>47199930

The elite knight set is popular among Astora Knights, I wouldn't look that deep into it.

>>47199968
Why would he need or want Gwyn lord soul if he had one already?
From what I gathered it did nothing but grant power, and being an everlasting dragon would be equally powerful to begin with. Only thing I can think of to back this up is the fact Gwyn was wasn't strong enough without the Lord Soul and Seaths aid.

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>>47198091
>that filename

>>47199991
The Gundyr you fight in the tutorial is the same Gundyr you fight in the past, hence why you recieve no boss soul. You already obtained it the first time you battled.

>>47199987
>Why did the dragon's need the primordial crystal to make them double immortal?

They just had that crystal shit that made them double immortal for some reason, and they don't even need it!

Don't EVEN need it.

>>47199964
No. Her original time is the real time of the actual world. The Ashen One's Firelink doesn't exist in that time since it's a separate pocket plane made by Ludleth. So her dead corpse ended up in the pocket plane but the living Anri you meet throughout the story, be she at FL or not and whether she summons you or not, is all the same Anri.

>>47199984
The trophy for defeating her in the Japanese version is Defeated God: Half-Dragon Priscilla, though - 神の撃破「半竜プリシラ」

The four bosses are 王の撃破 "Defeated King: (Name)" and Gwyndolin is the only one who shares the same "Defeated God" trophy as Priscilla.
>>47199992
Anri's straightsword though.

>>47194763
>Far right
Is that the head of one of the Serpents like Kaathe and Frampt?

>>47200031
This surprisingly makes alot of sense

1) How does the boardgame play? How to win, number of players, etc.
2) Does it come with Priscilla, or will it ever?

>>47200033

Yes, it's theorized Kaathe has been *very* busy infiltrating Human society and setting himself up as a god.

>>47200033
Head and body. Those are pauldrons not wings as some people assume at first glance

>>47200049
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL2hngajqNs

>>47200032

Her sword is a copypasted Astora Straight Sword.

>>47199822
There is no reason to assume that dragons have a sex or can procreate. They are neither truly alive nor dead, when people ascend to dragonhood they turn into statues.

There is no indication that dragons can reproduce sexually, weird magic fuckery with their blood/scales/etc. is more likely.

>>47200044
It's a lot of the same time is convoluted shit we got used to in Dark Souls 1. Like Beatrice being there to help you kill Four Kings, then you finding her corpse after she died trying to defeat the Four Kings by herself.

>>47200076
Half-dragon Priscilla and child of dragons Revolver Ocelot though.

>"This shit is fucked, I'll go find some more dudes to set on fire." - Kingseeker Frampt

What did he mean by this?

>>47200076
He could've also been titled Duke simply because his characteristics/personality/whatever else were masculine and not gender based. Also a Jap game and they're all freaky deaky with gender over there.

>>47200086

Not him, but I agree it's more likely they were created by magic experimentation than by dragon fucking.

>>47200123
Thirded

>>47200077
Same thing with Iron Tarkus. "Time is convoluted" is a load of bullshit, but it's bullshit that fits in with the rest of the lore, so it gets a pass.

>>47200123
Half means Priscilla has to be half something else though, so maybe test tube baby of Gwyn and Seath? That way even if Seath IS a dude it's totally not gay

no homo

>>47200106
Case in point: Gwyndolin

>>47200086
Again, weird magical experiments with dragon stuff.
Maybe Oceiros made Ocelottte the old fashioned way when he was a little bit more human. Heck, maybe the Queen's disappearence was simply due to her dying to pregnancy with partial dragon abomination and the grief sent Oceiros over the edge, leaving him sitting completely delusional in his garden.

>>47200101
It's what he does in DS1

>>47200077
>>47200137
>all those berserkers that invaded you at the bell tower in DaS2

That armor set was the most glorious piece of shit I'd ever farmed.

What was the point of Oceiros' transformation?

He seemed to be turning into a scaleless dragon like Seath, so what would he even gain from that?

Or was he stated to be immortal?

>>47199647
>Yep. Nashandra wanted to usurp the flame and basically become the new Manus.
There is no way that this will end well for anyone.

>>47200149
>Case in point: Gwyndolin
Though in Gwyndolin's case we know they were born male, things get vague as to their current state.

We have no idea how successful Gwyn was with his "education", how Gwindolyn views themselves or even if they ever knew they were a boy.

>>47200174
I think the key concept is that he "tried".

>>47200184

Yorshka calls him brother, and he seems to consider himself a male.

>>47200056
Sneaksnek?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VyaShl6urc

>>47199647
Where is it said that Manus shards are more powerful for being smaller? We find a few manus shards in the DLCs and none of them seem especially superpowered, nor weak. Nadalia was just tricksy and ambitious. The Queen of Ash fucked up and was late. Sunken Queen is trapped as I recall, and waiting for Sinh to awaken and Eleum Loyce waifu was redeemed by a righteous dicking from the Ivory Kings tusk.

>>47200060
Nice!

I think I'll be getting this then.

So any word on Crossbreed then?

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>>47199930
>>47199950
>>47199964

I think that's Oscar of Astora, he gave you the Estus Flask in DS1.

>>47200253
Nope. The next two stretch goals are invaders and also kinda Solaire.

I think it's 5k for Jester, then another 100k for some invader that's from Scholar of the First Sin, I think? After that we'll probably get another area or boss expansion as the finisher of the campaign.

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>>47200086

>child of dragons Revolver Ocelot though

I propose the theory that Ocelotte is Seath's current reincarnation. Remember how in Dark Souls 2 Seath was a force ghost or a cave or something? And how Manscorpion Tark says that he will never die and just keep coming back forever?

Maybe Ocelotte is the current reincarnation of Seath the scaleless, he really is there in the room with Oceiros you just can see him because Seath is a ghost or something now, you can still hear him though.

>>47200227
It's the description on Nashandra's soul I think.

>>47200319
Yeah, just because it's the Elite Knight set doesn't mean it's Anri. Probably is just a callback to Oscar giving you the Estus Flask in 1.

>>47200327
They've probably got something else fairly big planned for 2.5m.

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>>47200327
Damn.
Ah well, it'll still be fun to actually win a Dark Souls game for once.

>>47200227

I don't think that the Sunken Queen was trapped, i remember her soul or something saying that she was "waiting for the coming day of revenge" or something like that.

>>47200397
Also sounds likely, I just figured she was stuck and needed the Dragon to escape. Definitely needed the Dragon.

>>47200439
>>47200397
>>47200227

Soul of Elana, the Squalid Queen,
who rest beside the sleeping dragon of the Eternal Sanctum.
This child of Dark accompanies the dragon,
slowly amassing souls in anticipation of the coming day of vengeance.
The wondrous soul of this augur of wrath
can be used to acquire numerous souls,
or to create something of great worth.

>>47198999
One of the Archdeacons left to worship Rosaria whom he considered a goddess.

One of the Archdeacons stayed to keep watch over Aldrich's coffin, believing some day he might return.

Archdeacon McDonnell went with Aldrich to Anor Londo, remaining faithful but meeting his end in a hidden chamber (possibly due to Sulyvahn's machinations, if you take into account the two pontiff beasts guarding his corpse).

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>>47200480

>possibly due to Sulyvahn's machinations

More like, definitively due to Sully.

>>47200480
>One of the Archdeacons stayed to keep watch over Aldrich's coffin, believing some day he might return.
That's Royce, the leader of the Deacons we kill, according to the guide.

>One of the Archdeacons left to worship Rosaria whom he considered a goddess.

So where the hell is this guy?

>>47200510

I have no proof or reason to believe such a thing, but i choose to believe that the third deacon is that grub outside of Rosaria's chamber that gives you a red soapstone when you kill it.

>>47200510
Right. Mcdonnell, Royce and Klimt. Their names all show up on different pieces of equipment or spells.

>>47200824
Race mixing will destroy whites and maybe the rest.

>crossbreed bastard child and antithesis to all life

What did he mean by this?

>>47200844
>crossbreed bastard child
Child of Seath and Gwynevere
>antithesis to all life
Has the Lifehunt Scythe

>>47200876
>Child of Seath and Gwynevere
This is still the stupidest head cannon out of the lot.

Waifu cunts ruin everything. I'm not saying you're one, just making an all to common statement.

>>47200919
I'm perfectly open to alternate interpretations, if you've got one. I agree it's kinda dumb, but I can't think of any better explanation off the top of my head.

>>47200936
child of seath and gwyn

no homo

>>47196098
>and unlike the clerics, they probably do want to spread the darkness.
Then why do they wear the same turtle back covers the clerics do?

>>47200936
She's just an unknown goddess with no ties to Gwynevere. Only Gwynevere, Gwyndolin and nameless traitor were 'gods' spawned from Gwyn. There were others as evidenced by Gwynevere marrying and absconding with some random fire (or was it smith? I always confuse them with greek mythology) god.

>>47200990
If you're opposed to the current reigning religion, would you openly show your opposition so they could destroy you?

>>47200990
A theory was that those were stones, keeping the pilgrims down in case they would go hollow. And probably adding some symblocal sacrifice/hardship to the journey.

>>47201016
Yeah, Fire God Flann. Not denying that there are other gods, but the fact that the Painted World is stored in Anor Londo, a quick walk away from the main Cathedral no less, with a small corps of guardians protecting it, suggests that the Painted World and Priscilla are considered to be very important to Gwyn and his children.

About the Profane flame, I had an idea.

So the description of the spell profaned flame says that the flame was from the sky, and incinerated naught but human flesh. I'm thinking that the profaned flame isn't necessarily something to do with chaos, more that it's something from another world's cycle.

Humans and gods and everything are powered by the first flame, but what about a similar flame from another world? Such a flame doesn't necessarily play nice with humans, because it's a completely different kind of flame. So the profaned flame comes here on a meteor or something, and it's existence as a completely separate kind of flame makes it so that it burns only creatures of flame to death. It's like putting a bonfire next to a chemical fire, one is going to choke the other out.

>>47201042
Could be superstition, with people sprouting into trees, could be a belief that wearing that kind of heavy, burdening protection would demonstrate your faith and resolve enough to protect you from becoming a treepeople.

>>47196098
>How turning into flying tree monsters accomplishes that? Dunnolol, maybe they release abyss spores or something.
The Pilgrim's are naturally magically inclined, presumably most of them are sorcerers like Yoel. Might be that they're just multistage lifeforms, and the Butterfly form is their final stage of life, where they gain the most power. They certainly demonstrate having much more power, controlling the Dragonslayer armor, pelting you with red magic balls and shooting laserbeams.

>>47200032
It's not. Anri's sword has a dark colored hilt.
The Astora Straight Sword in DaS1 had a gold or brass hilt.

>>47197689
Cthulhu invictus or whatever the medieval sourcebook for call of Cthulhu was, I think it was Cthulhu dark ages. Lose sanity on death instead of when looking at spooky skeletons.

>>47201046
Of course, but there are any number of reasons for that.
I'm partial towards her being a threat and harbinger of death and destruction.
She comes in the guise of something sweet and innocent, can turn invisible and has a scythe (allegories for the grim reaper/death), is locked away, resides in a world of darkness and beasts and views them as peaceful, possibly alluding to her viewing them as good and you and your kind (the outside world) as being evil.

>>47199290
>She was probably attacked by the Dancer, on orders from the late Pontiff to keep you from getting to Lothric, to keep the fire from getting linked.

No, since the Dancer breaks out of her chains in the same animation, regardless of whether you've killed Emma or not.

It;s more likely Gotthard, because he's the one who comes back to the castle after the eclipse.

>>47201158
>possibly alluding to her viewing ... you and your kind (the outside world) as being evil.
Eh, that seems like kind of a stretch. More likely she's just embittered to anyone of the outside world for imprisoning her there in the first place, and she's finding friends among the only other sentient creatures there with her.
She's absolutely a threat, she's at least half-god, can turn invisible, and her scythe's power is that it literally steals life, there's ample reason to keep her locked up. But why lock her up inside Anor Londo specifically if it didn't hold some personal significance to Gwyn and co.?

>>47201169
I mean, I can arguably buy that, but why? What did Gotthard have to gain by killing Emma to get into Lothric Castle, or why did Emma keep him from returning, since Gotthard was/is loyal to the crown? And something attacked and killed Gotthard before he could even make it to the Archives, and it certainly wasn't Emma. Maybe the Dragonslayer Armor, since it was in a semi-active kneeling position just in front of where Gotthard collapsed?

>>47201058
Perhaps it's a dragon's fire?

>>47201158

She seems vaguely associated with cold/frost, which is noteworthy in a setting that places such a big emphasis on fire.

Also, remember she was originally going to be the level-up girl.

>>47201256
>What did Gotthard have to gain by killing Emma to get into Lothric Castle, or why did Emma keep him from returning, since Gotthard was/is loyal to the crown?

Gotthard helps us along the way, so he probably wants the fire linked, so he probably headed back to the castle to try and kill Lothric on his own. Emma wouldn't let him in, so he killed her.

>>47201058

Andre says he sees the Abyss in the Profaned coal, and the Eleanora's item description says:

>A strange weapon found among malformed inhabitants of the Profaned Capital.

>The Profaned Flame was triggered by the curse of these women, relatives of a certain oracle, but despite their culpability, they went on living, without any cares.

My theory is that the certain oracle was Alsanna, and either she or her handmaidens tried to put an end to the chaos flame, but instead created the Profaned flame. And the reason it burned only humans is because once it was fed the dark it acted like any dark/human sorcery and it went after humans.

>>47196903
>>47196726
If its a true age of man, why are people hollowed and sickly looking?
I think the only true ending is to keep relighting that fire.
How does it get lit anyways? Just touching it? Having enough souls?
Is it possible that since the player is not a lord of Cinder, his soul isn't powerful enough to light it well?

>>47201301

Why would Emma not let him in but she does want to let you in?

Not to mention that if Ghottard had been the one to kill Emma, he would've taken the basin of vows and used it to bring the ladder down.

>>47201400

>If its a true age of man, why are people hollowed and sickly looking?

That is the true form of man, so when the fire fades, everyone turns back to their real form, hollows.

>How does it get lit anyways? Just touching it? Having enough souls?

You feed it souls.

>Is it possible that since the player is not a lord of Cinder, his soul isn't powerful enough to light it well?

Probably, Lothric waited too long, so now it's all fucked and now because you're just a filthy ashen one you can't link the flame properly.

>>47201367
The problem I have with that is where does the "fire from the sky" part of that come in?

Honestly it might be a combination of both. The chaos flame dies, but then a meteor crashes down in Irithyll and in trying to figure out what the hell is up with it, Alsanna and co accidentally let out the fire inside it.

It could be just eating humans out of eating the humanity in people, which is a cool idea. Maybe it's a more 'fresh' version of the first flame from another world, and like a bonfire, it want's kindling. Since it's not as strung out as the Lothric flame, it seeks more actively as opposed to passively.

>>47201400
>If its a true age of man, why are people hollowed and sickly looking?
That's humanity's true form. They were hollows before the first flame was found, shown in the DS1 intro. The name 'hollow' suggests something fundamental is missing, that they're cursed, but the fact is humanity as it is only exists because of the first flame, and because of the Furtive Pygmy splitting the Dark Soul among them.
>How does it get lit anyways? Just touching it? Having enough souls?
By being given souls. Souls burn. Accumulate enough souls by defeating the most powerful beings of your time to rekindle it.
>Is it possible that since the player is not a lord of Cinder, his soul isn't powerful enough to light it well?
That's essentially confirmed. "Nameless accursed undead, unfit even to be cinder". And compare the Link the Fire end of DS3 to that of DS1. In DS1, there was a roaring blaze of fire, engulfing the entire Kiln. In DS3, it just carries on quietly flickering into the darkness. The flame is closer to death than it's ever been, it takes more and more to keep it alight, taking five Lords of Cinder to even begin the ceremony, and even then you're barely enough to make the slightest bit of difference.

>>47193157
How I'd do a Dark Souls RPG:
-each player makes a character
-each player also works out the origins of their character
-these origins are the "important lands" of this era of flame
-One player plays his "land" (basically DMs) while the others are playing their characters.
-Players take turns until all the "lands" had been conquered.
-Then it's a free for all to decide the fate of the world (no need for a DM).

>>47201504
I'm really strongly inclined to believe that it's fire from the eclipsed sun leaking down onto earth. You can plainly see that it's happening, and it's the only plausible explanation I've been able to come up with that fits with what's given that isn't just pure speculating. Redgrave save us pls

>>47201543
See, I would agree with that, but we know the Profaned flame came BEFORE you start the eclipse because of how fucked up the Profaned Capitol is, and that Sully got his fire sword from the flame.

Maybe the leaking sun thing happened at some point in the past, like when Gundyr failed, and despite Ludleth's time fuckery, he didnt get all of it?

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>>47201543
Eclipsed Sun? More like the Sun becoming a MASSIVE DARKSIGN.

>>47201607
Yeah sorry, I meant it having happened in the past, during the time leading up to Yhorm becoming a Lord of Cinder. The sun is bleeding into his home, burning his citizens, the world is going to shit, so he links the fire to try to sever that connection between the bleeding sun and the land. Which succeeds, but through either sheer unnatural fuckery or the combined efforts of those pyro fuckers in pointy hats, the fire itself survives and keeps on burning.

>>47201620
Yea that one's kind of a given, the Dark Sign being placed on a planet close to becoming undying once again.

>>47201403
>Why would Emma not let him in but she does want to let you in?

She doesn't want to let you in until she's dying. At which point she begs you to try and not kill the guy you're not supposed to kill.

>Not to mention that if Ghottard had been the one to kill Emma, he would've taken the basin of vows and used it to bring the ladder down.

Maybe he did, in his world? Or Emma was blocking the other entrances to the castle we couldn't see.

>>47201620
>>47201543
>>47201504

Well, i think the eclipse/dark sign sun is something that happens whenever the fire fades, it's just that in 1 and 2 things aren't as dire as they are in 3. In 1 Gwyn's cindery self is just starting to fade, in 2 it looks like Vendrick giving up happened very recently, maybe just some decades before the start of the game at most, his servants, mainly the throne watcher, defender, Veldstadt and the Mirror knight haven't gone Hollow, they're still carrying their duty.

But in 3, everything has gone to shit, Lothric just said fuck it and ran away from his duty and apparently this happened a long long time ago, so now the age of dark is already starting. Hence, the dark sign in the sky.

The reason i say this is because

>See, I would agree with that, but we know the Profaned flame came BEFORE you start the eclipse because of how fucked up the Profaned Capitol is, and that Sully got his fire sword from the flame.

You need to remember that the profaned flame and Yhorm's events are things that happened a long long long long time ago, before Aldrich's cycle. So it's possible that the profaned flame did come from the dark sign sun, Yhorm linked the fire to try and put it out after all remember?

I keep seeing people saying the world is going back to the way it was in the age of ancients, with no life and death.

Does that mean the age of dark is going to be like the age of ancients, just with hollows instead of dragons?

>>47201703
>Well, i think the eclipse/dark sign sun is something that happens whenever the fire fades
Yeah I absolutely agree, the sun is fuelled by the first flame, it didn't exist before the discovery of the first flame. So when the flame starts dying, so does the sun, and it dies not just by going out, but by pouring its molten self back to the earth it was spawned from.

>>47201720
Hollows were there in the age of ancients. They're the initial form of all humans and gods. The dream of people who seek an age of dark (minus maybe Kaathe who knows the actual truth) is simply a world where the gods of the age of fire are no more. Kaathe and the Sable Church seem to have found a way to become hollow without losing your sanity, so presumably they're driven by that vision, or being the new seat of power.

The plot of Dark Souls 3 as far as I can make sense of it

>The First Flame is fading again. Good thing Framt prepared for this by creating Lothric, a dynasty inbred to produce a Lord of Cinder able to link the flame

>Prince Lothric: "Master Aldia said linking the flame is stupid, I'm just going to hang out in my bedroom with Lorian all day."

>Alright we have a backup plan, ring the bell and bring back the old Lords of Cinder, who can link the fire with their leftover embers

>Abyss Watchers: "hurrrrrrrrrrr abysssssssssss"
>Aldrich: "HOLY SHIT THE AGE OF DEEP SEA IS SCARY I'M GOING HOME TO PREPARE FOR IT BY EATING GODS AND POWERING UP"
>Yhorm: "I have to go to an appointment with a friend. An old promise."
>Ludleth: "I'm the only one left? Seriously?"

>Alright backup plan B, ring the bell and bring back the Unkindled lordseekers to bring the stupid Lords back

>Protag: "Okay they wouldn't come back so I cut off their heads and brought them back, what next?"
>Firekeeper: "You can link the fire, or actually, you can alternatively not link the fire."
>Yuria: "Let's usurp the fire!"
>Protag: "What the hell am I supposed to do?"
>Ludleth: "You can do whatever."

What's Frampt's deal anyway? Why does he want the fire linked even if it's obviously not a permanent solution?

>>47201820
>THE AGE OF DEEP SEA

What did he mean by this?

>>47201820
Yep, that's about it in a nutshell.

>>47201865
Eh, seems like he's pretty happy with the way things are, with the gods in charge, he just wants to keep that status quo, because age of grey crags and dragons and nothing else is kind of boring.

>>47201886
<Bloodborne reference>

>>47201865
Man, who even knows with the Primordial Serpents...

>>47201820
Lothric DID link the flame in his world, alongside his brother who bore the brunt of the repercusions for doing so.

They just don't want to take their thrones and become kindling for the Flame with the other Lords.

>>47201920
>Lothric DID link the flame in his world, alongside his brother who bore the brunt of the repercusions for doing so.
There's at leats one or two things saying they rejected their duty, and nothing saying that they did link the fire, at least as far as I'm aware. If there is anything supporting that, I'd like to see it.

>>47201886
I'm pretty sure the Deep is just another name for the Dark.

>>47201920
Lorian helped to bear Lothric's curse, which is why he's crippled too. Not helped him link the Fire.

>>47201941
I'm pretty sure their Lord souls say as much.
And to be a Lord of Cinder requires having linked the Flame to begin with.

>>47196726
I thought ending three was more about you taking the last of the flame for yourself?

>>47201992
The two princes rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder, and settled down far, far away to watch the fire fade from a distance. A curse makes their souls nearly inseparable.

>>47201992
No it doesn't, just be very powerful. Aldrich didn't link the fire.

>>47201992
Description for their soul
>The two princes rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder, and settled down far, far away to watch the fire fade from a distance. A curse makes their souls nearly inseparable.
>And to be a Lord of Cinder requires having linked the Flame to begin with.
Matter of contention. Some people don't even think Aldrich linked the flame.
>"And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might."
So he was deemed powerful enough to link the flame, and named a Lord of Cinder, but nothing confirming that he ever actually did. Similarly, Prince Lothric was bred and raised to be a Lord of Cinder from birth, but perfectly reasonable to think that he just said "fuck that entirely" and let it fade.
Ludleth and Yhorm are the only two definitely confirmed to have linked the fire. The Abyss Watchers PROBABLY did, to save their home from the encroaching toxins, and might be why they're in the state of disrepair you find them in.

>>47202035
Yes he did. A Lord of Cinder is someone who linked the fire, that's why the final boss is Avatar of Lords (of Cinder) in Japanese, and why they're called Cinder in the first place. Because they burned themselves linking the fire.

The primordial humans during the Ancient age were obviously not insane. Just leathery, Gwyn was the son or nephew of Lloyd but Lloyd wasn't the one who found the Flame and the Lord Souls. So obviously they were alive in their tribes or clans or whatever and it was the introduction of the fire that caused the growth into gods and humans and all the other sorts.

>>47202073
Nah, it was the Lord Souls that gave them light, intelligence, major sentience. It's entirely possible they were related prior to the finding of the first flame.

>>47202063
Lothric and Lorian did not, their soul specifically states that they did not. Aldrich cares nothing for the flame and is all about the deep, nothing states he did. Yhorm's items state he did, Ludleth states that he did himself and the Watchers probably did to fight the abyss.

Lord of Cinder, by 3, does not mean what it meant in 1, when there was only a single Lord of Cinder anyway.

>>47202122
Lords of Cinder are BY DEFINITION those who linked the fire. It's literally the first thing Hawkwood tells you.

>>47202112
I disagree, it gave them power but the primordial humans were most likely just leathery looking humans, eking out an existence underground, under the trees and dragons and then one day 4 people find the fire and bring the power to their tribes and those tribes became the people of Izalith, Gwyn's people, Nito's people and then the ancestors of what we'd call normal humans from the tribe of the Pygmy.

>>47202152
Explain Lothric and Lorian's soul description then and reconcile it with how you have to put their Ashes on a Throne. And Hawkwood is a known traitor who *will* dick you over at numerous points. Believing him about anything is perilous.

>>47202211
>Explain Lothric and Lorian's soul description then
Are you retarded?

>>The two princes rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder,

They aren't lords of cinder.

> how you have to put their Ashes on a Throne

They have the power to link the fire, which is why you take their embers. But they were never lords, they refused to become lords, by refusing to link the flame.

Jesus

>>47202173
DS1 intro shows them living in caves, emaciated, shambling about, collapsing just trying to get up. Doesn't seem like the build of a well-minded being.

Do you think the demon prince mentioned in Lorian's Greatsword's description has any relation to the Old Demon King?

>>47202211
>Explain how Lothric and Lorian's soul description says they refused to become lords of cinder when they're not lords of cinder

They refused to become lords of cinder, so they're not? It's pretty straightforward.

>>47202258
Probably. Demons are living beings with some degree of sentience, makes sense they'd have families, power structures.

>>47202259
>>47202237
"The Lords have left their Thrones and must be delivr'd to them" -Firekeeper
Lothric has a throne, therefore he's a lord. How is that hard to understand?

>>47202320
It might be the Demon that Lothric used as a doorman over in Farron Keep.
The one who's totally flameless?

>>47202259
I mean it can be pretty easily explained that to be a Lord of Cinder simply means that you have the strength and willpower to link the fire, and are expected to. You can be named a Lord of Cinder before actually linking the fire, and it's assumed that you are going to, but in the case of Lothric and maybe Aldrich, they both reneged on their duty.

>>47202380
That guy made me sad. He looks intimating as fuck, is off at the end of a super optional thing so you think he's a secret boss and he goes down like a bitch. Doesn't even get a true boss room, fog door or boss health meter.

Really shows the decrepitude of the world I think. Even the demons are old and tired.

>>47202345
That's referring to the Lords of Cinder who were resurrected by the bell and left, the ones Emma tell you aren't in Lothric, the ones everyone refers to as Lords of Cinder while the princes never are, you fucking retard.

>>47202428
If you bully him hard enough, his legs crumble and he crawls around. I thought I'd never feel bad for a Chaos Demon.

>>47202380
I don't think so, because the sword specifically says he slayed the demon, but that one is still very much alive.

>>47202428
>smack his legs hard enough
>they crumble into dust
>he's left crippled but goes down fighting
>can get easy critical smacks into his face
Poor guy.

>>47202430
They drop Cinders of a Lord, something only a Lord of Cinder can produce.

>>47202173
Since you have zero evidence to support your fanfiction your disagreement isn't worth anything.

>>47202430
But it doesn't you fucking retard, he's got a Throne that, guess what?, his ass fucking isn't in. Just like the other Lords but for Ludleth. He drops "Cinders of a Lord" that specifically call him a Lord. That makes him a lord who did not link a flame.

>>47201886
>>47201907
>>47201959

I'm inclined to believe that the whole DEEP thing is just a reference to Bloodborne, i think that in Fromsoft's head, they like to think that all their fantasy games take place in the same universe. And the whole deep thing is supposed to be referencing that Bloodborne happens in the distant future of the souls universe after the age of light and dark comes to an end.

Of course, because of licensing issues and whatever, that's not how it actually is, but i think it's probably what fromsoft would want to do if they could.

>>47202485
It could be that the sword extinguished the flame and the demon is now something closer to Vendrick's golems.
This is all total wanking, but it's a fun thought.