Pathfinder General - /pfg/ What's the best setting you

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>>47134746
... whats this map of? I'm going to assume real world right?

>>47134807
Yep, it's just a map of Western Europe turned on its side.

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>>47134820
Yeah, I figured it out after I noticed the 'chokepoint' and the boot. It helps that I've watched some crusader kings lets plays.

>>47134746
We were murderhobos brought through time to an era that needed murderhobos. Basically 2300 A.D. in Chrono Trigger.

Guns are shit against murderhobos because ???, we didn't care that much.

>>47134846
The 'boot' comment is a pretty big giveaway, admittedly.

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Got any good suggestions for gestalting a beguiler, /pfg/? Looking at possibly using the scarred mourner archetype, although the shadowgraft skirmirsher looks pretty cool too. Going to be using her for a Rappan Athuk game coming up. All DSP content is allowed.

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>>47134879
yep.

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>>47134746
I'm choosing between Dragonlance, Oerth, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Golarion.

I'm going with the Forgotten Realms, pre-Spellplague.

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>>47134978
I've honestly never played in a pre-existing setting before.

All my GMs (myself included) like to make their own. The obvious exception being real-world settings (like WoD or Shadowrun), but even those have new elements added. Both have remnants from earlier games in our group present (half of Seattle is a smoking ruin), and some personal choices (Vampires in our nWoD games still have Antediluvians and Caine)

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>>47134746
I love using Pathfinder in Eberron, myself.

The Vierra posting kinda makes me want to do Ivalice, though. Granted, the two settings do share some similarities; mainly the technology.

Haven't found a good Pathdiner-Athas (Dark Sun) version.
Or Maztica.

>>47135186
There are 3.5 versions, and that means that there are PF versions, because it's the same system with very minor changes.

>>47134820
Slightly modified from the looks of it, the black sea is altered, the Bosporus has been smushed and then Iberia has crashed into France, and then Iceland decided to take a swim over to Norway.

>>47135225
Not really. The changes may SEEM minor, but there are tons of them.

>>47135225
Did Matzica get a 3.X release? I have only ever be enable to find second edition?

>>47135103
A T-rex with the vampire template seems pretty scary. It loses a chunk of HP since its health would be based on its CHA instead of CON but that's probably more than made up for by its DR and Fast Healing. Does a creature count as pinned if the T-rex uses its Swallow Whole ability on someone- would it get to use its Blood Drain on someone it has swallowed?

Just how powerful are Mythic Ranks?
I can't really get a proper grasp on it.

>>47135394
Depends on your path, what you pick, and how it syngergizes with your build.
Like I was going to take the champion one in a mythic game, take the mythic power so crit damage is always maximized, then use it with the strike that allows you to automatically hit and threaten, or with a cyclopse helm even in a pinch, using a firearm so X4 crits, and a boost to either mirror the strike or just auto confirm if I feel I needed it.

>>47135394
Depends on what you take.

They're either ridiculous or just mediocre. I mean, you usually get 5ish health per rank, plus potential access to mythic spells, but it's not a enormous game changer without the right choices or associated items.

>>47135335
I would rule that it does, to be honest. Its bite has a grab component, and it adds double strength to bites. Technically you have to be pinned to blood drain, but it gets to bite and drain.
The interaction isn't RAW, but you make a second grapple check and take bite damage on the way down, so it would require GM fiat, but it's pretty reasonable.

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>>47135455
Wait, which strike allows you to auto hit/threaten?

Because that'd be ridiculous with a bless weapon.

If a Contract Devil appeared before your hypothetical character, would you take the 3 wishes or the infernal slave? Whichever one you'd pick, please elaborate on what you'd do. How would you phrase the wishes to not get fucked? What kind of slave would you pick?
Would you just not take the deal because it's likely to fuck you over too much?
This is pretty important so I'd appreciate some opinions.

>>47135488
>>47135455
Which path would you recommend for a Juju Oracle trying to be both a necromancer and a save-or-get-fucked caster?
Marshal looks nice for the necromancer part...

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>>47135535

>Accepting an infernal contract

>>47135535
Neither character of mine would take that offer, deals with devils always tend to screw you in the end no matter how you word it there are loop holes.
>>47135508
Level 7 Tempest Gale Hunting Zephyr
Discipline: Tempest Gale (Strike)
Level: 7
Prerequisites: Two Tempest Gale maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Ranged attack
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
As a master of the Tempest Gale, you never miss your mark; each shot is perfect. Make a ranged attack. This attack automatically hits, threatens a critical hit, and cannot be negated by a counter or other defensive ability activated as an immediate action (such as the emergency force sphere spell or a similar effect). It deals weapon damage as normal.

>>47135297
They seem minor because they are minor, anon. The primary changes are some minor stuff to SoS/SoLs, skills, very minor adjustments to feats, and a few PC class feature tweaks. Aside from that, most 3.5 stuff converts on an almost 1:1 basis.

>>47135581
Off the top of my head archmage?

>>47135581
Trickster, Marshal and Guardian are mostly traps.

Take Hierophant, take Inspired spell, Undead Master/Mythic Eschew Materials.

>>47135535
That's a terrible idea, anon.

>>47135610
Ahh, ranged only. Unfortunately wouldn't work for me, I'll have to stick with Cyclops and Blessed Weapon.

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>>47135581
Haven given it some thought, the undead master/mythic eschew can wait.

What kind of necromancer do you want to be?

The tons of skeletons/zombies kind? Go for Mythic Animate Undead via the feat choice.

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>the DM pulls a 'several more enemies appear from places
>they came from the south and the east door which were fairly close to each other
>4 enemies surrounding my Animal Companion
>the DM has bullshit rolls and all 4 of them hit and do high damage
>Companion goes from slightly less than full to dead in one round
>no chance to even take his body for burial as the entire building was lit on fire by our resident insane wizard and I had to chose between dragging his corpse out or dragging out the blinded and stunned Magus (who was stunned because the wizard decided to hit him with colour spray)

Rest in peace Barry the Bear

I fucking hate wizards

>>47134978

Sweet, here I thought I was the only one who liked pre-Spellplague Faerun.

BTW, how much would you improve fighters' attack, damage and combat maneuver bonuses so they can compare well to other PF martials, and what else would you give them to utility?

I am mulling some experimental stuff for mid/high level and one thing I was wondering about is greater WF /WSpec doubling all class and feat bonuses to attack and damage, instead of another +1/+2. I was also planning to supercharge stamina and weapon/armor training, and desu my biggest worry is that it will make the current outliers (archery and two-handed weapons) even more powerful. Then again... if fighters do more damage, so what?

Currently running reign of winter. Last session ended while they were n the Astoria dungeon. It was the second time the encountered the main witch, in the mother section of the dungeon.

Problem: they just almost got their ass kicked by the giant demon spider thing, and so at level 7 they finally realized that invisibility is a great way to explore rooms.

The witch has no way to deal with invisibility.

The paladin identified that she was evil with his move action thing, so a corungun smash paladin and a aberrant bloodrager proceed to murder the shit out of her before she even got an action. They got a surprise round, and she kinda rolled low initiative so they got to go again, and you don't just survive hasted full attacks like that...

If she got a single round she could have done some stuff, but I see no way she could have lasted more than four turns.

Will I just need to basically re-build bosses to be less stupid? Any suggestions for this? I don't want to throw a scry+die at them, but I want the fights to at least be hard.

>>47136054
Fighters do fine damage. PLENTY of damage. They don't have pounce but that is it. The problem with fighters is not their damage.

>>47135953
Generally speaking, the "kind" of Necromancer I'm aiming for is the "piece of shit Lich you can't get rid of that keeps ravaging everything with it's ever-growing undead horde."
Looking to free and team up with The Whispering Tyrant to get all kinds of necromancy protips before I eventually grow past him and stab him in the back. The endgame for this character is achieving godhood and slaying an already established god. Probably won't work, but hey, ambition is good, right?
In due time, mind. I'm patient.

>>47136122

They can do good damage, but a lot of other martials do more AND more besides. I was thinking of other things in terms of defense, control and limited utility, but I was looking for something to boost their mid-game combat potential without having to rely on another class to buff them.

What do you consider the biggest problems and how would you remedy them while keeping them as "pure"martials? I do not want to have to resort to PoWar.

>>47134879
I didnt see a boot just a big landpenis

>>47135225
I only found the "Empire of the Dying Sun" which to be fair was decent.

>>47135301
This.

Same goes for Dark Sun.

I never played 4th Ed. but I kn ow they did have Dark Sun for that but I haven't got a clue as to whether it was OK or not.

My muscle wizard build, not with items and skills.

The Iron Age
Wizard 5/Alchemist 1 VMC Battle Oracle

Stats w/o buff cycle:
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Stats w/ buff cycle:
Str: 30
Dex: 12
Con: 20
Int: 16
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

without buffs/with buffs
HP: 56/74

Without buffs/with buffs
AC:22/30

Saves:
without buffs/with buffs
Fort: +8/11
Ref:+5/+5
Will: +8/+10

+2 against divination

Traits:
Transmuter
Well Hidden
Magical Knack

Drawback:
Overprotective

Feats:
Human: Tribal Scars (Sloth Jaw)
Wizard Bonus: Scribe Scroll
1st: Toughness
3rd: VMC
5th: Power Attack
Wizard Bonus: Extend Spell
Alchemist Bonus: Brew Potion

Curse: Merciful
Revelation: Skill At Arms
Lay on Hands: 1d6 1/day

Arcane Bond: Familiar, Rat w/ Protector&Sage
School: Enhancement Transmutation
Opposition Schools: Illusion & Enchantment


Standard Buffs: Bear's Endurance + Bull's Strength + Haste + Monstrous Physique I + Rage + Enhancement School Power + Shield + Magic Weapon + Long Arm

Gear:
+1 Fullplate - 2650gp
+1 Cloak of Resistance - 1000gp
Extra Spells (30 lvl 1, 15 lvl 2, 10 lvl 3) - 2700gp
Sipping Jacket - 5000gp
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 750gp
Wand of Mudball - 750gp
Wand of Lead Blades - 750gp

Skills:
Spellcraft - +12
Profession (Herbalist) - +10
Craft (Alchemy) - +12
Appraise - +12
Use Magic Device- +9
Linguistics - +12

Sage Familiar:
+6 to all knowledge skills except Arcane & Nature
+7 to Arcane & Nature

With all his buffs his attacks do this:
To hit: +13 (with power attack)
1d12+19 (with power attack)

2400gp left, what else should I buy? Any other suggestions? At level 7 I plan to take a level in Vigilante with the Brute Archetype. Is there any way to cast spells as a Brute? If I don't become a Brute I will be a Cabalist instead so I cast from the witch, wizard, and alchemist lists.

>>47136228

Well, as far as defense goes, fighter is definitely the weak link of the martials. +5 save vs. fear at 18 is pretty meaningless compared to a pally's Divine Grace, multiple immunities, and LoH, and the barb can tank magic with the Superstition tree and melee with Invulnerable Rager's DR = 1/2 level when he's not one-shotting big threats with a ragepounce in the first round.

>>47136405
Fighters can add Bravery to all will saves now by forgoing a weapon training group at Fghiter/9 or greater.

>>47136320
I'm not reading a wizard build.

>>47136513

Armed Bravery is pretty nice, but it is still pretty weaksauce compared to the kind of protection you can get from things like Divine Grace and Superstition.

I still don't understand why so many martials have bad reflex saves. You're a fucking warrior, you have good reflexes!

>>47136297
That's the issue, it looks like a boot in the real world because it's north to south.

But when they identify it as a boot, people think, 'wait, like italy' and turn their head sideways.

I showed this to a friend, and he started and tilted his head when he got to that bit, because it doesn't naturally look like a boot from that angle.

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>>47136320
How are you expecting to cast those arcane spells in full plate?

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Are there any traits other than Rich Parents that lets you start with a free Masterwork weapon?
I'm building a character with a weapon that's a family heirloom and want to eventually enchant it later on in the game.

Or should I just wait for 5th level to have a caster use Masterwork Transformation on it and then enchant it from there?

>>47136888
There's literally a trait that lets you start with a masterwork item worth less than X gp.
I forget the name.
Signature Item, I think?

>>47136888
the gp price to fix it later is way cheaper then the trait cost to start with it.

>>47136932
I just looked it up, its Signature Moves from Bastards of Golarion. Thanks anon

>>47136934
This is a good point, plus it would free me up to grab a Campaign Trait instead.

Looking through Mythic Feats...
Casters get literally upgraded metamagic feats and can spend mythic power to cast the normal versions of those metamagic feats without actually having to, like, cast it longer or expend higher spell slots or whatever.
Gosh, how is my Wizard meant to compete with this Rogue? Thanks to Mythic, he can attack, like, 8 times per full-attack! All I'VE got is 4 casts of Maximized Echoing Empowered Meteor Swarm! This is unfair.

>>47136692
Fighter's Reflexes gets their Weapon Training bonus to Reflex, including bonuses from Gloves of Dueling.

>>47137142
>>not dazing meteor swarm

Shaking my head to be honest family

>>47137142
The mythic MM feats are 3rd party.

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>>47136692
Because, anon.

>Nobody could move freely in that clunky suit of armor!

>>47136888
Heirloom use to do it, but I think it was errata'd to only give you a non-masterwork item. Or maybe that was just a PFS ruling, I'm not sure.

The trait's still decent though, especially because the Masterwork Transformation spell exists so you can actually make the weapon masterwork and then magic later on. Do your pappy proud with the same shitty sword his father left for him, and also still be able to eventually make said sword not shitty.

>>47137209
Do people actually use Dazing Metamagic without it being banned or just totally wrecking everything? How does the DM play around it, just give everything massive save bonuses/rerolls?

>>47137486
>The trait's still decent though
No.

>>47136692

I don't know why 3E did it that way, either. Didn't 2E fighters use to have pretty good saving throws?

>>47136825
I'm not. All the spells will be cast before the full plate is donned. The campaign mainly has the idea that combat with be gladiatorial. When I don't have time to buff and put on the full plate I instead focus on no save battlefield control.

>>47136673
Well it's actually a Wizard, Alchemist, Vigilante, Oracle, Paladin.

>>47137549
>naw man I don't want free proficiency with whatever weapon I want and one of two minor bonuses to go with it for the price of a trait that also happens to be flavorful

I mean, hey, I don't tell people how to have fun. You do you, but I stand by what I said. It's a decent trait.

>>47137642
The issue is that it's proficiency with THAT ONE WEAPON.

Not Longswords. THAT Longsword. You know how pappy's longsword works, but somefucking how, other longswords are mysterious, arcane constructs that befuddle your mind.

>>47137719
Yeah, I'll agree that's weird but it's also not something you can't easily work around. Unless your DM is in the habit of destroying or stealing your weapons, I guess.

>>47137598
Donning full plate takes 1 minute per level. Rage and haste only last round per level, which is doubled by extend spell. Even if you have help and don it hastily, they'll still run out before you're even in armor. The rest are 1 minute per level which may sound decent, but even if it's gladiatorial combat in an arena or the like, I don't see how you expect to reliably be able to start fighting within minutes of needing to be ready to fight - especially when, taking into account buffing time, donning the armor and needing to get from where you don the armor to where you actually fight(again, assuming this is some sort of arena) will take at least 5 minutes. I don't see the organizers being particularly glad to have to delay the fight just because you need to wait until last minute before you can get ready to fight.

>>47137598
It takes 4 minutes to put on full plate.

I'm not sure of your caster level, but I'm guessing it's 5. So if you cast all 9 spells and put on your armor, you will have one round to act before those buffs start running out.

>>47137801
>Donning full plate takes 1 minute per level.
Meant to write: Donning full plate takes 4 minutes

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>>47134746
There is only one answer, OP.

>>47137642
>free proficiency with whatever weapon I want and one of two minor bonuses to go with it for the price of a trait that also happens to be flavorful
first off there are three choices, you get one. proficiency is one of the choices and a shit choice at that. half a feat for proficiency with one single specific weapon. no thanks.
second, the other two choices are +1 trait bonus on AoO. which is pretty shitty for a trait. the other bonus is +2 to a specific combat maneuver when using that specific weapon. the only option that might be worth thinking about maybe if it gave you +2 to a combat maneuver with a type of weapon. maybe
third. you still have to pay for the fucking weapon.
aint that some bullshit.

>>47137767
It would take 15 damage to sunder your weapon.

You would be surprised what helpless babes fighters turn into when you take their toys. It's why I always carry a non-magical variant of my main weapon in case.

>>47137845
"Son... son come closer. I want you to take my sword... take it with you, keep it close..."
"Gosh, dad. I'll make you proud!"
"I know you will, son... I know you will... that'll be 50 gold."

>>47137815
>>47137801
See this is why those spells can't be used in conjunction with the fullplate. I have thought about changing out extend spell for instead having craft magical arms & armor. Then I can afford folding plate.

> I don't see how you expect to reliably be able to start fighting within minutes of needing to be ready to fight - especially when, taking into account buffing time, donning the armor and needing to get from where you don the armor to where you actually fight(again, assuming this is some sort of arena) will take at least 5 minutes.
I know about the gladiatorial fights days in advance. I enter the arena after I am announced already buffed.

How often do you see a match where they wait more than 5 minutes after the fighters enter the arena to actually start the fight?

>>47137815
Half the spells are min/level and I have a 6 caster level because of magical knack. I can extend some of the spells to 5 min.


However like I said I am considering getting craft magical arms and armor to make folding plate. Casting the spells then just unfolding the plate right before combat begins.

>>47138123
Actually if I extend the transmutation spells they last 14 minutes because of Transmuter the trait.

>>47138123
Seems like a waste of a feat just to take it so you can craft one specific item and then probably never use the feat again. See if your DM will just let you buy it instead.

>>47138123
>How often do you see a match where they wait more than 5 minutes after the fighters enter the arena to actually start the fight?

They wait at the entrance for the previous fight to finish, for the announcers to do their thing, for the bodies to get cleaned out, and so on. Things rarely if ever go exactly as planned, which is exactly why you can't wait until exactly 5 minutes before entering the arena to start preparing unless you're prepared to make the audience wait 5 minutes.

>want to play a Mesmerist so badly and I don't even know why

Does anyone else have a class they just can't stop thinking about for no good reason?

>>47137486
>Do people actually use Dazing Metamagic without it being banned or just totally wrecking everything? How does the DM play around it, just give everything massive save bonuses/rerolls?

I use a staff of the master so it's the persisted stuff that is really dangerous. That being said, I have a lesser dazing rod for other things e.g. fireball, persisted snapdragon fireworks (cast as standard then shoot a firework as a move action for rounds/level, DC is low but your action economy is amazing and the enemy has to roll twice). Dazing spells are entirely able to end and encounter though, especially if you put them on stuff like chain lightning or other blasting spells since the DC's are high and dazing lasts for a number of rounds equal to the spell level. Sirocco is a personal favourite of mine.

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>>47137895
Most touching death scene ever, would surprise-end novel with

>>47138326
Paladin/oracle gestalt.

God damn that cha synergy. PoW feats for some manoeuvres to boost melee damage output if needed, such as Black Seraph's Glare (swift to enter stance, free intimidate with +4 if you deal damage, combine with hurtful feat to get another attack at full BAB), maybe the lore mystery but life link does look incredibly good.

>>47138326
Armorists.

I have no idea why, their entire gimmick outside of archetypes is 'I have stuff', but I dunno.

Armorists, man.

>>47137569
Yep, fighters had all good saving throws

>>47138291
My spells with extend last 14 minutes if they are transmutation. If I have the folding plate I can wait up until I expect the fight is roughly a minute off and begin casting. I budget in advance so as to not be caught off guard.

At worse if I screw up and begin getting announced before I cast anything, I only get to cast 4 essentially buffs while I am being announced for roughly 10 seconds an make them wait another 14 before I emerge (the folding plate unfolding as I do).

>>47138291
Can't afford it at this level. I will use it later to make magic weapons for the muscle wizard, as well as more armor, and eventually an animated shield.

>>47138451
Why did we lose this?

Fighters have every reason to have all good saves.

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>>47138326

I'm pretty comfortable in my role as the group's go-to murderbeast, but one of these days, I will go bard and give not even the smallest of fucks.

Of course, I should probably figure out how to build one first.

Forgetting all other Fighter problems and assuming they could be fixed on their own, should Fighters have gotten one good save of their choice, or two? I mean they definitely should get to pick, that's a given.

>>47138514
If you super don't want to give them all good saves, then good will, and they get to choose fort or reflex.

But seriously. All good.

>>47138541
But that's for monks. Fighter is now all about each build being a completely different kind of specialist character concept from each other - they are brutes, duelists, archers, etc.

>>47138607

Didn't UC monk lose their Will save, though?

>>47138514
I don't think Fighters should get to pick their good save. They should have two good saves, Fort and Ref.

They should keep their bonus against fear, and it should shore them up so it is as if they have a good save again fear effects. However they should otherwise not be as difficult to mentally encroach upon as characters based on mental prowess.

>>47138607
Yes, but all three aspects of saves are crucial to the rigors of combat.

Endurance, Agility, and Willpower. All are necessary.

I feel like Fighters should, by default, have all good saves.

Then, if you wanted to make a duelist-type character, you could take the duelist archetype, which kills your fort save in exchange for something else.

>>47138639
Yes they did.

>>47138639

They did.

They shouldn't have, since all good saves is kinda their THING, but they did because someone didn't want them to get the Umonk's boost AND have all good saves.

>>47138663
You can get weak-willed wizards as easily as weak-willed warriors.

>>47136888
On a side note use chosen child not rich parents.

>>47136054
The problem with fighters isn't their damage, it's that their class feature is feats (to which massive feat taxes are then appended on to anything they might actually want to do).

They don't have an actual class feature, because other classes get features *AND* feats *AND* things that are utility. fighters just get feats.

>>47138669
>I feel like Fighters should, by default, have all good saves.
All are essentially to combat, but every class is based around the concept that they are going to be thrown into a roil of combat. That is why 85% of all class features are combat based.

A fighter as their flavor is brave, does not flee from combat, but has not trained their mind to be resistant to attack.

I believe bravery should start at 1st level and go up by 1 every three levels.

I believe Advanced Weapon & Advanced Armor training should be given IN ADDITION to the normal as simply part of the class. With you receiving one even when you first get weapon/armor training.

Those three changes alone bring them to on part with other martials. If anything it would make them simply better than barbarians.

>>47138692
Being a wizard requires mental training in the form of learning one's spells. Being a fighter does not require nearly as much exercise of the mind.

A fighter fights with his body, a wizard fights with his mind. A fighter's body is more resistant to attack, a wizard's mind is more resistant to attack.

If I were to choose I would change many more things about the system, including how derived numbers come from stats. However that is not what we are talking about.

>tfw the Paladin's player suggested to me that my character and her's would make an adorable couple

Has this ever happened to you lads? Players shipping characters? Personally, I think it's very cute.

>>47138717
Weapon Training & Armor Training are class features. Which is why Advanced Weapon & Armor Training should be inherent to fighters.

Receive them alongside the normal would shore them up, may actually push them pass barbarians.

I said more here >>47138725

>>47138639

Yeah, to me it was a WTH moment. Of all the things they could touch, the will save and HD were the least important. They already made the brawler, who had a d10 HD and good fort and reflex... Sure, monks have a good wisdom, but paladins have divine grace AND pathfinder gave them a good will save. I just houserule it in any game I run.

Bravery is a good concept, but the values kill it 1+ 1/4 levels is way too little on a specialized save. Considering that a lot of class features add 1/2 your class level to X, I am very surprised bravery was made weaker, and that there was no unchained fighter to take care of business. Instead, they had to make the barbarian simpler...eh.

>>47138717

PF fighters get some features, but I would say that the problem is that they have very few of them and that there aren't many good feats at mid/high levels fighters can choose.

At level 12, a barbarian can pounce. What is a fighter-only feat at that level? Greater Weapon Specialization for +2 damage. Yes, fighters have some critical feats and can stack two of them, but there are still very few feats that can compare with the sort of class features most classes get on high levels.

>roll20 campaign had promise
>player begged GM to let his girlfriend join and now things have been quiet for days
Welp.

What is the purpose of eldritch knight? It seems pretty bad.

Are there any prestige classes that fill the same purpose as eldritch knight (caster/martial fusion), but aren't horse shit?

>>47138768
>>47138823
I really get the impression that Fighter was one of, if not THE first class Paizo looked at when making PF, and they hadn't quite gotten a handle on how much they wanted to give people.

Like, they hadn't found their balance point, such as it was. It's the first child raised when the parents had no fucking idea what they were doing, while they had learned somewhat for the later children.

Then one of the parents got embroiled in work and never sees them anymore, and they're taken care of by their stupid relatives.

>>47138746
>A fighter fights with his body, a wizard fights with his mind.

A wizard fights with magic, which they learn with their mind. They're not psions. There's no reason to assume the process of learning something also makes your mind more resilient.

>>47138891

It was a legacy gish option from 3.5. It is a full BAB class with 9/10 casting but without the tricks the magus has. Then again, at the time there WAS no magus.

>>47138943
>A wizard fights with magic, which they learn with their mind.
In order to cast spells you must train your mind, that's why minimum spell casting requirements exist. Unless you're saying that a wizard does not train his mind.

>There's no reason to assume the process of learning something also makes your mind more resilient.
That is similar to saying that the training to become a fighter should not give them a better fort save. Learning how to swing a sword doesn't make you more resilient, etc.

What reasoning do you have that a fighter should be powerful mentally against encroachment? What thought process is there for it?

>>47138891
It's for people who want 16 BAB and 9th level arcane spells for whatever reason. Pretty good way to make a gish, and it was before magus was a thing so that wasn't even an option. There's also hellknight signifier, but that's only medium BAB. PF doesn't have the equivalent of abjurant champion or other actually good gish PrCs 3.5 had.

>>47138986
They're intelligence-based though. Not wisdom. You can quite easily be a weak-willed genius.

And Fighters would have good will-saves because in this fucking world you NEED ONE.

One will save will ruin your fucking day, or potentially your life, why would someone training for 'combat in all its forms' not do what they can do be iron-minded?

>>47138943
>There's no reason to assume the process of learning something also makes your mind more resilient.

Why would the process of learning how to store arcane energies in your mind and then release them in strictly controlled forms NOT make your mind more resilient?

>>47139016
>And Fighters would have good will-saves because in this fucking world you NEED ONE.
That is no different reasoning from any other class. They are all in the same world. By this logic EVERYONE should have a good will save.

>One will save will ruin your fucking day, or potentially your life, why would someone training for 'combat in all its forms' not do what they can do be iron-minded?

Again, everyone is trained for combat, everyone lives in the same world. Your reasoning is beyond faulty.

>They're intelligence-based though. Not wisdom. You can quite easily be a weak-willed genius.
That is represented by having low wisdom. Being trained as a wizard makes your mind more resistant. A wizard can still have a negative wisdom modifier and at first level be no more resistant than a commoner, or even less resistant depending on his race.

>>47139036
Because Int doesn't help your will saves.

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>>47138764
Our party's shipping the Kitsune Beguiler and the Ulfen Warder together!

>>47139055
The Int is not what is applying to his will save you idiot. It's the mental training.

It's the same fucking reason every 6th level or greater caster has a good will save. Learning to cast spells makes your mind more resilient.

Him being weak willed is represented by a low Wis, not by his training.

Same reason you can have a strong willed fighter due to high wisdom. His training itself does not train his main to be strong against mental encroachment.

>>47139055
We're talking about base saving throw bonuses, not ability scores. Do try to keep up.

>>47138764

>Players shipping characters
>Has this ever happened

You must be new here.

As for personal experience, I got husbando'd something fierce last game. Apparently my guy was her type and hit about four of her fetishes, and it was so cute and amusing I had to go along with it just so I could tease her mercilessly.

>>47139036
>>47139055
>>47139114
How many powerful wizards in fiction get corrupted and seduced by the dark magic they can learn? A lot more of them than warriors, that's for sure. Look at Conan, look at Arthurian Myths, look at Lord of the Rings. Magicians are more likely to be tempted into evil than swordsmen are.

>>47139050
Fighters are trained more for it though. They are trained SPECIFICALLY to fight, more so than literally ANY other class. That's their entire THING.

>>47138847
Have you tried joining the discord?

>>47138764
Thankfully no, I've never had to deal with that.

>>47139129
Being tempted into evil has nothing to do with your will save.

Corruption doesn't either. Someone can turn evil and be extremely tough against mental encroachment.

You need to ask how often are powerful spell casters mind controlled over non-spellcasters. In fiction spell casters are more resilient to magical forms of mind control in everything except fucking anime.

God damn you're fucking stupid.

>>47139140
You mean the discord with an expired invite?

>>47138847

Perhaps the GM is busy helping her through the creation process and running some one-on-ones so she gets the hang of the game?

>>47139135
>Fighters are trained more for it though.
Incorrect, they are for less time than alchemists, clerics, druids, inquisitors, magi, monks, and wizards.

Every class is predicated on the concept they are going into combat. Inquisitors route out enemies of the faith, alchemists get fucking bombs as a base class feature for a reason. Everyone is riddled with training specifically to go into combat.

>>47139155
Mind control isn't all that Will Saves entail, idiot.

God damn you're fucking stupid.

>>47139165
And the new one is now up in the thread.

>>47139194
I get that, but Fighters are trained for it MORE, you goddamn clod.

An Alchemist also spent time learning alchemy, an Inquisitor also spent time learning his religious doctrines, a druid spent time petting deer.

A Fighter is ALL ABOUT FIGHTING.

>>47138847
What game is this?

>>47139195
Will saves entails thing that effect your mental capacity.

Fear is what fighters are as good at as classes with good will saves at resisting, which makes sense as it fits their flavor.

Resisting mind control? No, that doesn't fit fighter flavor. Resisting emotional effects? Doesn't fit. Resist SCRYING? Doesn't fucking fit.

Will saves entail things that are attempting to go after your mind, that is in their description. What part of a fighter's flavor says they should be mentally resistant in that way?

>>47138986
>Unless you're saying that a wizard does not train his mind.

I'm saying that learning things isn't the same as being able to shut people out of your mind.

>That is similar to saying that the training to become a fighter should not give them a better fort save. Learning how to swing a sword doesn't make you more resilient, etc.

The fighter is exactly that, a fighter. Part of fighting is learning how to defend yourself against whatever attacks you expect your enemies to throw at you. The fighter isn't interested in academic learning, but they would be interested in honing their mind for battle.

>What reasoning do you have that a fighter should be powerful mentally against encroachment? What thought process is there for it?

Because it's a common part of the archetype in fiction for characters like this to throw off mental effects by sheer will.

>>47139224
A fighter learned how to fight using his body, that is represented by his feats, his armor & weapon proficiency, and his increased BaB. He did learn how to fucking fight.

I see no reason he should have a good will save. You're not making any damn sense.

>>47139226
That one game that got posted here a few days ago for a performance fighting based arena thing.

And the reason why everything went dead silent is because everyone moved to Discord rather than roll20, and the link expired for the discord, which everyone forgot was a thing. That, and everyone in the group has work/college/other stuff that they're occupied with.

>>47139241
The fighter DOESN'T HAVE ANY FLAVOR, is the problem. Plenty of warriors would be able to shrug off mental attacks just by powering through it with determination, and while wizards also could do so (I'm not saying Wizards should have good Will saves, they should have them too) Fighters should have the option to be high-Will too.

>>47139255
Yes, but he's planning to fight in a world where things will try their hardest to get into his head.

He is planning to go into combat against these things, and he's not going to devote time to training his mind like he does his reflexes? or his endurance?

Besides, physical training takes and promotes willpower too, you know.

>>47139244
>I'm saying that learning things isn't the same as being able to shut people out of your mind.
Paizo disagrees, literally every 6th level or more spell caster has a good will save. There is a reason for this.

>The fighter is exactly that, a fighter. Part of fighting is learning how to defend yourself against whatever attacks you expect your enemies to throw at you. The fighter isn't interested in academic learning, but they would be interested in honing their mind for battle.
And a wizard is not? You're saying a wizard who's entire training is to sharpen his mind wouldn't train his mind for battle? A fighter doesn't train himself for everything.

I agree that reflex and fortitude should be good saves because of the training of his body, the training of his mind should not be included.

>Because it's a common part of the archetype in fiction for characters like this to throw off mental effects by sheer will.
That isn't a part of being a fighter, that's part of being a protagonist. Nearly every soldier, warriors, non-magical individual in fiction is more mentally susceptible than spell casters. You're confusing fighter traits with protagonist traits.

>>47139262

Well, armed bravery sort of gives you a good will save, but that isn't really enough. Paizo has been sorta-maybe-kinda stealthfixing the fighter since unchained, but they have been pussyfooting about it.

To me, the stamina was the start of what could give the fighter a fixed niche. For example, spending stamina to boost saves, representing him or her just soldiering on with a herculean effort.

>>47139262
Again you are mixing up the traits of being a protagonist and the traits of being a fighter. Look back for people who aren't part of the main cast.

>>47139290
>Yes, but he's planning to fight in a world where things will try their hardest to get into his head.
Literally every class is. By your reasoning every class should have a good will save. No class expects to not go into combat, that's why nearly all class features are combat related.

>Besides, physical training takes and promotes willpower too, you know.
I don't disagree with this, but from a gameplay standpoint this isn't reasoning for fighters to have across the board good saves.

>>47138764

I've seen this happen on occasion, although when I run it's usually PC/NPC.

An example of PC shipping that amused me immensely but never had a chance to go anywhere was when the party's shadowdancer had not one but several near-death experiences in a couple of minutes because the rest of the team was majorly fucked up and not in condition to fight the demon running loose.

After the demon went down and the shadowdancer was narrowly saved from being burned to dust by the party's timely intervention, the party's cleric and magus both got a little sweet on her while the Ranger, who had been a kinda dickish murderhobo up to that point, had a gruff but sincere "glad you're alive" moment. It was kinda nice, since the party had been together on purely professional basis prior to this and the Shadowdancer had been played pretty aloof prior to taking a bunch of bullets for the rest of the party that night.

Unfortunately, that campaign fell apart almost immediately afterwards so I never got to see what happened next.

>>47139333
You're ignoring my point.

Yes, all classes are trained for combat. But 99% of them are also trained for other things.

Fighters are 100% BALLS IN on combat.

And bullshit no class expects to not go into combat, there's thousands of wizards who just sit in their towers and study. Hundreds of alchemists who never leave their labs. Oodles of bards who are just ACTUAL bards, scads of clerics who are just clergymembers.

>>47139387
There are fighters who don't go into combat either, who were trained and merely act as commanders/guards and don't touch their sword.

Your point as it stands is not a justification for all good saves. Because that would push fighters too far forward for their defensive line past other classes. It doesn't solve anything about the route of their problem and puts a bandaid over the gaping wound that is their balance by jutting out in entirely the wrong direction.

Fighter's problem is not their defenses, it never has been.

You need to address different things if you want a balanced class. All you're doing is making them imbalanced in the wrong way while keeping them essentially lacking options.

>>47139126

Storytime?

Please? This sounds like quite the story! What got her so worked up and how did it all happen?

>>47138764
Yes. I immediately left the game and blocked everyone, that shit is disturbing to me and an outright red flag.

>>47139524
What's so disturbing about the players deciding if their characters should hook up?

>>47139524

Well obviously it's a red flag, but it's really a case of YMMV, I've had PC/PC happen before that freaked me the fuck out, while in another campaign I've got a PC/PC relationship that's both adorable and lewd.

>>47139534
It's creepy and crosses the line. You're taking the game too seriously at that point.

>>47139550
I'm sure you enjoy your ERP.

>>47139551
I'm wondering how pairing characters together is any more serious than planning several levels ahead for your build, or investing in downtime to create something within the setting, or even having your character suffer via losing their homeland or family to the BBEG. Romance as a sideline thing seems less severe than that.

>>47139446
Uh. Yes they DO have a problem with defences.

The most important shit in the game to not be hit by targets saves, and their only good save is fortitude. Fortitude being the least punishing save to not have, since Reflexes are fucking everywhere and Will saves will fucking ruin your life.

As a counterpoint, Monks had all good saves, AND actual class features, AND good AC, and they're MONKS.

>>47139446

>There are fighters who don't go into combat either, who were trained and merely act as commanders/guards and don't touch their sword

That's not a fighter, it's an expert/aristocrat

>>47139607
>As a counterpoint, Monks had all good saves, AND actual class features, AND good AC, and they're MONKS.
Not any more, they were changed to two good saved after they got actual class features in Unchained.

>Uh. Yes they DO have a problem with defences.
I have never had a fighter who didn't easily outrace caster's saved. Hell my main fighter build had +45 fort +35 Ref/Will.

Save races are not what you really should care about. What your good save is makes up such a small part of your saves that they essentially do not matter.

The point of optimization for them is far different.

>Fortitude being the least punishing save to not have, since Reflexes are fucking everywhere and Will saves will fucking ruin your life.

Are you stupid? Relfex only does damage, Fortitude does debilitating effects like nauseated.

It goes Fort = Will > Reflex.

>>47139551
Shipping your characters is a sign that they are taking the game less seriously.

>>47139664
How exactly are you getting +35 reflex/will on a Fighter?

And if it's such a small point of consideration, why the fuck are you so adamant against them, when it APPARENTLY doesn't matter?

>>47139696
It's both too serious and not serious enough. Either way, it just signals to me the campaign is over with and those people aren't ones I ever want to play with if their imagination is so utterly worthless the only thing they can think to do is propose romantic relationships with another player, when it'd be much more stimulating to see how they would craft a romance between themselves and, say, a cohort.

>>47139696
And that's how our party became a giant love dodecahedron

>>47139746
You sound like an awful person to play with.

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>>47139733
You're just upset they're leaving you out of it.

>>47139790
No, I'm genuinely disgusted and it speaks to how poor your own mental health is, to suggest jealousy on my part.

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>>47139789
>>47139816
Hey, sometimes you just have to have a completely not serious game, anon. It's good for the soul.

>>47139858
Those are total wastes of time, if I wanted to do something not serious and actually fun, I'd play vidya or something. These things fizzle out enough as it is, I'd at least like one of you worthless 'groups' to give me a somewhat entertaining experience.

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>>47139892

>>47139920
>bait
Tell me how many games of yours you've actually played to completion.

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>>47139308
>You're saying a wizard who's entire training is to sharpen his mind wouldn't train his mind for battle?

No more than any other academic.

For the record, I have no problem with wizards having good mental saves, but I wouldn't say it's necessary either.

>A fighter doesn't train himself for everything.

They train for combat, which includes knowing how to defend yourself.

>That isn't a part of being a fighter, that's part of being a protagonist.

Not all protagonists have tons of willpower.

>Nearly every soldier, warriors, non-magical individual in fiction is more mentally susceptible than spell casters.

The vast majority of soldiers, warriors and non-magical individuals are not fighters. Fighters are the tier of warriors who tend to feature as protagonists, and they tend to be the kind of protagonists who DO have tons of willpower, because it's hard to be a fighter without it.

>>47139978
>DO have tons of willpower, because it's hard to be a fighter without it.
You got THAT right, if I was a Fighter I'd need to be either really stupid or have an insane willpower to not fucking kill myself instantly.

>>47139978
>No more than any other academic.
Every class who is an academic has a good will save. Excepts have a good will save and they make up the entirety of non-PC academics.

>They train for combat, which includes knowing how to defend yourself.
Which is why they should have good Fort/Will.

>Not all protagonists have tons of willpower.
I have no idea how this is supposed to be against my point.

>The vast majority of soldiers, warriors and non-magical individuals are not fighters. Fighters are the tier of warriors who tend to feature as protagonists, and they tend to be the kind of protagonists who DO have tons of willpower, because it's hard to be a fighter without it.
>and they tend to be the kind of protagonists who DO have tons of willpower, because it's hard to be a fighter without it.
I see no evidence for this over any other kind of protagonist. I do not see them as being more powerfully willful on average than protagonists that can be described as classes who aren't fighter.

However we could both begin putting out examples but that isn't the fucking point.

>>47140034
>Which is why they should have good Fort/Will.
Fort/Ref is what I meant to type.

>>47138847
The link is up, man. You gonna join?

>>47140034
The point is that combat in this world isn't just physical. It's mental as well and Fighters KNOW this.

KNOWING that, why would they NOT do their best to be mentally resilient as well as physically?

>>47140397
I can see your reasoning. However this does not mean they had the time/ability to train their mental faculties in this way. No morose than literally every other class trained for combat.

>>47140489
Fighters are ALL about combat though. All other classes spent time learning other shit, when a Fighter is all about Fightan, so they could have spent that time steeling their mind in the time that a Rogue would have spent learning anatomy.

Is there an actual REASON as to why you have to expend gold coins when crafting items? I assume you're supposed to be "buying components" with the gold, but you afaik you can craft an item in a cave all by yourself so long as you have the gold.

>>47140556
Again, all that training is meant to be their feats, not mental fortitude. There is nothing in the fighter's description to imply they mentally steel themselves in addition to their physical training.

What you're describing is moving away from fighter, makes more sense as the Eldritch Guardian archetype. A fighter trained to be mentally resistant and fight spellcasters.

Any DSP guys lurking at the moment?
I'd like to ask about that system you're making.
Will your PF content be compatible with it?
Whether it's a mechanical or thematic issue can be left aside if you wish to not disclose any information. A simple "yes it'll work" or a "no, it won't work" is all I'm after!

You guys' stuff is the only reason I'm still playing PF and I wouldn't mind migrating completely to the thing you're cookin' up.

When I use Telekinesis to grapple. How much can I move my opponent?

In grapple rule it said : "You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed."

Since Telekinesis has (400+40ft/level), does this mean I can move my opponent 200+20ft?

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>>47140563

Spellcasters and Master Craftsmen literally transmute gold into magic items.

>>47140563
No, it is buying components. Literally.

You can have all the gold in the world, but no components means you're shit outta luck.

A lot of DMs tend to handwave it though.

>>47140593
I thought we were arguing about what fighters SHOULD be rather than what they ARE?

>>47140593
>There is nothing in the fighter's description to imply they mentally steel themselves in addition to their physical training.

There's nothing in the wizard's description that implies that either, but you don't seem bothered about that.

>>47140563
You need to be able to "purchase materials" these materials are nondescript magic stuff. Generally I don't allow players to craft magic items outside of a place that could sell them such materials.

I would have to look back through magic item creation rules, one moment.

So under the rules all kinds of items describe materials that must be purchased, but is nondescript on what they are.

>>47140714
>There's nothing in the wizard's description that implies that either, but you don't seem bothered about that.
Except their mental training which is in their description. Mental training, in the system, means a good will save.

>>47140709
>I thought we were arguing about what fighters SHOULD be rather than what they ARE?
Again I am arguing what their flavor is right now.

From a balance perspective I do not believe they should have three good saves.

From a balance perspective I believe they should have the following:
>Good Fort/Ref
>Bravery increased so as to make Will equivalent to a good save against fear
>Advanced Weapon & Armor Training to simply be an option you gain in addition to normal weapon & armor training. Including when you first receive both class features.
>Advanced Weapon & Armor rewritten so as to be less of a pure numbers game and allow for unique actions, such as the Advanced Weapon Training's Weapon Sacrifice

Giving them a good will save as well would put their defenses out of league with everyone else and not address the fact their combat utility is lower.

Feats that require fighter levels should be moved to Advanced Weapon/Armor Training as well.

These changes bring them in line with the front runners for martials. It does not address the balance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters, but your Will change does not either, at all.

The Spellcaster & Martial utility disparity is a mere fact of the system being what it is.

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How do I make this glorious motherfucker in pathfinder?

I'm trying to figure out a combination of HotS and WC3 gameplay. So far I've come down to soul hunter stalker wielding two double-swords (because fuck the rules he absolutely uses all four blades).

Specializes in veiled moon, thrashing dragon and black seraph (absolutely taking razor wings of black seraph as a stance).

He technically is a trained mage, but I'm not sure how to represent that.

>>47140774
>Except their mental training which is in their description.

All it says is that wizards study magic, not that they "mentally steel themselves". If that's your standard for mental training then great news, fighters mentally train themselves too:

>Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons.
>learning fighting techniques
>studying the art of combat

>>47140802
Don't know nothing about no Warcraft, but since you said he's a trained mage, maybe a few levels in a Caster followed by Bladecaster PrC.

As for weapon, I say you could use refluffed Pata

>>47140659
There will be no native compatibility and there is no intention of such.

>>47140659

I'm not DSP but I'm very sure the answer is 'no'. They're deliberately making something in quite a different thematic vein.

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>>47139858
Oh, puh-leeze.

I have no soul.

>>47138921
That still doesn't excuse them from not including it in Pathfinder Unchained. Instead they redid the Barbarian which was prefectly fine as it was.

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>>47140936
So, long story. Born a night elf Illidan was trained as an arcane wielding mage... and dabbled as a druid (but never really got into it). Then demons invaded.

Through either an insane xanatos gambit or outright lies, he ended up working for the demons. They burned out his eyes and gave him a crazy blindsight, ultra-magical tattoo's that enhanced his caster level and arcane power and sent him after his druid brother.

He played the part of badguy (or actually was a bad guy, we're not sure) up until it became advantageous for him to betray the demons... which is when he murdered a demon named azzinoth and stole his weapons (double-scimitars from eberron work I guess?), he created a fighting style based around them.

Demons lost, the queen he was working for got dragged to bottom of the ocean where she was corrupted by an elder evil into snake-lady, despite that they're still on good terms they might fuck, if he wasn't obsessed with his brothers waifu. Illidan gets tossed into jail for the next 10 000 years, only to be broken out by bro's gf when demons invade again.

He fights demons for a while, then finds an artifact of super demonic energy... and gobbles it up, using its power to turn himself into a half demon. He then fucks off for a bit, until his old jailer and potential yandere love interest chases him down and tries to re-imprison him. Instead of opting to leave the country to avoid the police, he decides to leave the whole fucking planet.

He gets into contact with queenie, who sends him an army to command... he makes some friends with junkies and then bails. Only to have one of the biggest, meanest demons tell him "YOU. YOU WORK FOR ME. GO KILL THIS OTHER PRICK REBELLING AGAINST US AND WE'LL FORGET ABOUT YOU DOING IT TOO".

He doesn't quite manage that, goes a little bit crazy and then starts making an army of other half-demon, demon killers to protect himself for when the demons come back again.

>>47141137

You know, it never really hits me just how fucking mental Warcraft's lore is until I see it typed out like that.

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>>47141137
In warcraft 3, he was a skilled fighter with his weapons able to dodge blows through supernatural senses (which made him unbelievably durable), he could ignite an area around him and he could 'counterspell' enemies (mostly by burning the magic right out of them).

In heroes of the storm... he's basically fucking yoda, can dash through people doing damage to all of them. Dash to a target, strike them and flip over them. Evade physical attacks. Transform into a demon *or* make insane cross-map dives. He lifesteals off of every auto attack and reduces the cooldowns for all of those abilities just by hitting shit.

Kind of why I was figuring soul-hunter stalker was a good fit.

Important to note that 'night elves' in warcraft are like 8 feet tall and probably have 'powerful build'. The blades on his double-weapons are each as big as a bastard sword.

>>47141329
To be fair, illidan is basically an epic level character, fighting literal cosmic entities. He's on the extreme end of the shenanigans.

Mundane characters get to fight relatively boring shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x3d93vPKuU

All of his base abilities are the same, but the numbers / modifiers are all very different now. Fucker bounces all over the battlefield.

I'm looking for an ability, I can't remember the specifics of it but a barbarian build I saw had a way of mitigating damage despite falling below 0 hp, I think he was trading one round of rage to avoid 6hp of damage. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

>>47141092
Hence 'stupid relatives'

Like, the guy who owns Pathfinder doesn't work on rules anymore. I can't even remember his name.

He hasn't proven himself to be a massive fuckwad, so compared to the stupid relatives we have currently, he's potentially great. He just doesn't do rules anymore.

>>47141343
>Night elves have powerful build

Not really, him and his bro are just fuckhuge because REASONS.

>>47141437
This one?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/ferocious-tenacity-combat-orc-half-orc

>>47141597
That's the one, thanks. Now I just need to work out how he got 6 damage negated for every rage round expended, and how he could use it more than once per day.

Holy fuck this feat is incredible.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-style-combat-style

Am I overreacting? The way I see it the only drawback is that you can't use a swift action on your following turn, but given that it's very possible to have a massive bonus to a skill by mid level I feel this feat would be great for classes like barbarian or inquisitor who might not emphasize armour and lack a shield.

>>47139497

Not much to tell. It was a fairly gradual thing, starting off with teeth-clenched teamwork (she was a druid and thought alchemy was a perversion of the natural order, I thought she was a self-righteous hippie brat), which progressed into semi-friendly rivalry, with her always telling me to quit being a jerk and take things seriously, and me having my fun annoying her. Eventually I took a nasty hit saving her kid sister's life-as I was recovering, we had a moment where my guy dropped his doucheyness for a moment, and the combination pushed her into full-on tsundere mode. It was so gosh-darn cute, and I had a lot of fun teasing her about it, up to, including, and after the two became an actual couple.

So I'm interested in Warlock.

How does Mystic Bolt actually work? Do I add my STR to its damage? I know Deadly Aim and Power Attack doesnt work when it's a touch attack (a shame, really).

But I'm super curious as to does the Mystic Bolt have a crit range? I assumed that it has because it can be enchanted with flaming bursts, which require crits.

>>47141734
It's basically on-par with a PoW counter. It's reusable every round, but it doesn't get bonuses to using it, no extra rider effects, and it has feat pre-requisites instead of basically getting it for free as a class feature.

Also you can use 5 stamina to use it as an AoO instead of an immediate action, so that's pretty cool.

>>47141688
Hey may have missed the once/day part. He also might have been using the Guarded Life rage power, which lets him transfer lethal damage that would drop him to 0 into nonlethal damage.

>>47141819
> STR to damage
No. There is already a faqs on that.

Pretty sure anything with attack roll can crit (yes, spells can crit too).

>>47142018
SPELLS CAN CRIT?

>>47140556
> Be a Barbarian
> doesn't even has to train or spend time learning shit
> better fightan than a fighter
> more knowledgeable than a fighter

>>47142018
Hm, that means the damage of Mystic Bolt stays really low even into late game. I guess I'll pass on playing it.

>>47142042
It's like people don't even read rule.

> Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

>>47142042
If you're making an attack roll (like with rays) you can crit... and apply precision damage (which does the same type of damage as the spell).

It makes it somewhat specific, but still possible.

>>47142084
>>47142095
Fuck, the twat at my table has been insisting for two fucking years that spells can't crit.

>>47142105
Most spells cannot. some can.

Just consider any spell that has an attack roll to be 20 / x2

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>>47140915
What he said was that the mental fortitude of wizards is represented in their good will save progression, where fighters objectively do not have that.
So no, fighters do not 'mentally train themselves too'.

>>47140774
Couldn't agree more. All they've done is a shell game, without actually giving more, they've given more ways you can waste what you have for what you already should have.

>>47139978
> protagonist
> fighter
> not paladin

>>47142232
Like Enervation.

>>47142256
>protagonist
>pure paladin
>not Chosen One archetype

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>>47142298
>Not taking pure Paladin
>Retraining archetype to Chosen One at level 4

>>47142298
> implying there is such a thing as pure paladin.

All paladin are lewd! Lewd!!

>>47142436
Nocticula please go.

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>>47142436
Bashful and easily flustered? Maybe some.

Lewd? Nahh

>>47142482

Have you flustered your paladin today?

>>47142235
>So no, fighters do not 'mentally train themselves too'.

The line of argument was questioning WHY the fighter doesn't train themselves for mental fortitude. He said it's because it's not in the fighter's description, but it's not in the wizard's description either, and yet they still get the saves.

Are there any good builds for the Warlock right now?

The mystic bolts combined with the weak spells make it seem very weak.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rogue-genius-games/general-feats/necrothurge
One of my players showed me this and wants to ask me to allow this. What do you all think?

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>>47142496
I'm actually the Paladin, of the Empyreal Lord of Chastity.

So yes, he would not know what to do in a sexual scenario.

>>47142530
No, what he said was
> If that's your standard for mental training then great news, fighters mentally train themselves too:
But that's not his standard, that was a supporting point. His standard is that will saves reflect that fighters do not devote as much time and effort to mental fortitude as casters.

>>47142562
The usual Mad bomber build?
Precise shot,TWF,Rapid and all that jazz.

>>47142695
You still not really doing much damage, sadly.
But then, maybe the constant touch makes up for it.

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>>47134746
Hey /pfg/, I could use your help. I'm planning on running a sandbox for my usual gaming group come Autumn once we're done with some L5R; and after an overindulgence in Eastern stuff they want to do Pathfinder.

I was considering either doing it in Varisia or doing it in Osirion/Katapesh. Adventure path stuff would be useful in fleshing out some idea of an overarching plot going on in the world, and giving me stuff for the players to fall into when they enter certain areas.

Some of the players are leaning more towards Varisia stuff just because it is more traditional fantasy, but I've got one or two who are okay with the idea of some Arabian Nights stuff.

So I guess what I'm wondering is, aside from Legacy of Fire/Mummy's Mask, are there any good Pathfinder things that deal with the desert? I've got Al-Qadim and Dark Sun books I can always crop from, plus Sandstorm from 3.5; but it never hurts to have more. I checked out a few of the Society Scenarios for those regions and they're very generic "go raid a tomb" type encounters.

Or, is that region just generally kind of boring and should I go for Varisia's weird Eastern European/American Colonialism with Cryptids stuff instead?

They kind of want to do Domain Game stuff as well, which is why I think the Arabian Nights/Egyptian thing might work with them investing in Downtime to take control and influence a city or something.

It is all very much up in the air at the moment.

>>47142731
You could always use conductive to just slap on your mystic bolt damage to your normal attacks.

>>47142800
Oh, I've never though of that, thanks.

There were arguments that, raw, upgrading or combining specific magic armors and weapons isn't permitted.
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/equestrian-plate
Extra enhancement are explicitly mentioned.

>>47142800
Speaking of that... Conductive Dagger of Doubling would work right (although it probably be better with Kineticist).

Tell me how to wield giant weapons /pfg/. First of all bring big, second effective size increases (like leaded blade), but how do I wield larger weapons?

>>47142923
Be a titanmauler barbarian.

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>>47142906
What are you talking about or to?

You mean in general? Because there are rules for improving/enchanting existing suits of armor.

>>47142923
>By getting larger
>Being a half giant
>Being a Titan Mauler

Effective size increases?
>Lead blade
>Gravity Clip
>Primal Warrior Stance

>>47142997
>Be a Large Half-Giant Titan Mauler weilding a Giant Lead blade Greataxe in Primal Warrior Stance

I've been away from Pathfinder for a while now, but there's always been this one thing that I wanted to do, but there was never a specific rule for it.

Is there a build that would let me throw other people? Preferably without becoming bigger than large size.

Does anyone have a link to the old trove?

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>>47143027
Actually, if you're into Path of War, they just added Fool's Errand (kinda added, still pre beta) that is based around grappling and throwing.

There's a 7th or 8th level maneuver that let you throw some 10 feet for every rank in its discipline skill, climb.

>>47142997
Right now I use Giant's Shape to become use, and Leaded Blades for the effective.

Also what the fuck does the Titan Mauler ability actually do?

>She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

I can wield it, but I'm actually worse than if I didn't have it? Since it increases the penalty by 4?

>>47143060
>>47143027
I would advice against using Fool's Errand. It isn't even in Beta yet and very janky (with one or two VERY offensive maneuvers).

>>47134846
School also helps.

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>>47143064
Essentially, a one handed weapon designed for someone a size larger is a two handed weapon for you, but you take a penalty for it being sized incorrectly for you.

What you're wielding is a two-handed weapon for a large creature, or a Huge One Handed Weapon.
What you're doing is taking a cumulative penalty.

Normally:
Large Longsword = -4 on attacks
Large Greatsword = Impossible

Now:
Large Longsword = -3 on all attacks
Large Greatsword = -7
(both of which being further reduced for every three levels)

>>47143132
Oh, huh.

>>47143027
There's no hard ability in 1pp that does it, but technically Throw Anything includes enemies.

Do marksmen not get talents?

I don't see anything on their pfsrd page or ultimate psionics saying they do, but their class power list has a talents section with some marksman-only stuff.

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When making a homebrew race, how many abilities do you generally grant each race, and how do you balance and implement both physical and mental characteristics of race?

>>47143314
According to the talents page, it's a completely optional thing up to your DM blah blah multiple implementations.

>>47143314
Correct, they do not innately get talents.

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>>47142436

That's not justice, anon.

>>47143322
Just give it whatever makes sense for it, then look at it.

If you look at it and go "Alright, this seems to be at least vaguely along the lines of humna/aasimar/fetchling or something similar", then you're fine. If it's too powerful, it might have a technical Level Adjustment early on, or you can trim it back. If it's too weak, like the Halfling, tune it up a bit.

How do I roleplay a bard with the following statline. : Str 9, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 7, Cha 18? And what weapon do I want to carry, I assume a rapier(Weapon Finesse Feat) and a ranged weapon of some sort. First time doing anything even remotely "artsy".

>>47143322
The way I do it is I think of what the race should look like, and what they NEED to fit how I think they should be.

Like, when making Fire Manas. First thing? Immunity to fire. Is that too strong? Weaknesses to water frees up design space for other abilities. What then? The ability to throw little fireballs? Yeah that sounds alright...

Basically don't overthink it in the initial stages.

Just give them what you think the race needs to have on a conceptual level, then look at it and figure out if it's too powerful or not powerful enough. Then trim back or beef up from there.

Authors don't try to write perfectly the first time. The first pass is to just get it OUT, then you go back and edit once you've got a framework to build off.

Alright, I want to run a game for my players where they've become stranded, or deliberately exiled, on a set of islands.
They need to gather supplies and craft storage and housing, etc to survive.
They'll find they've been watched by others, possibly cannibals and then increasingly bizarre horrors
Only tier 3 and below classes are available for play

Will this work?

>>47144559
There's not much you can do in melee honestly, it would be better to just use a bow at all times than take weapon finesse and try to poke things with those stats. Your spellcasting will want to be out of reach of enemies anyway, and you getting KO'd with your small HP pool in melee (which would happen often) would cease your active bardic performance and hurt the party more than you staying back and taking no actions would... it's just not gonna be worthwhile.

>>47144640

Probably not, but hey, gives them good reason to train Survival. Give it a shot!

>>47144640
It can't hurt to try!

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>>47144640
Depends on how well you improvise.

See, Pathfinder has very few explicit rules to my knowledge on things like eating or sleeping.

Some simply levy them to checks, usually Fort. I read in one AP, they gave a 15 DC fort save to go without sleep. Many characters can go without sleep, then. Hell, heart of the fields humans can once a day ignore the exhaustion that provides.

You will need rules made for that, as well as how much they eat, the ramifications of going without food, the potential to catch diseases/infections, and supplies to treat those. They will likely need to keep track of that, and the penalties will need to such that they are actively worried about going without.

>>47144640
Well there might be a problem with challenge variety - try to reduce your "make a Survival check" frequency down to 4 times a minute if you can.

So I just agreed to DM a campaign, but very different from my usual schtick. I'm the kind of guy who will take an Adventure Path and make it last like, 3 years if I can, because there's so much stuff I want to do.

This, though, is going to be 8 sessions making up one "season", and hopefully will be picked up and continue later on.

So since I have nothing written or in mind here, I'm looking for ideas for what to run. Possibly either A.) a cool module that I can stretch to 8 sessions, or B.) an AP book that I can pare down so it can be finished in that much time.

>>47144660
In that case, do you have a suggestion for what to do with that feat? I thought having a melee weapon would be a good idea.

>>47140694
Anyone? I really need to know whether I can use telekinesis to life people up and drop them down. Because Wizard.

>>47144809
*lift.

>>47144671
>>47144683
>>47144716
>>47144753
Cool Thanks heaps guys!
Yeah, it's probably going to get a bit too mechanically heavy, so I'll need to try to streamline that somehow, else it'll just descend into a tedious string of constant dicerolls
It'll probably involve a fair bit of improvisation


There's a massive worm on one of the islands that replaces the tongues of its victims, dislocating the jaw as it descends deeper into someone's all too alive body
The victim feels rapturous joy as its lower jaw unhinges and melts away

>>47144809
Oh, hun, no.

That distance is range. That's how far they can be when you target them. You can move them half your current land speed.

Aka if you move 30 feet, you can move them 15 feet per round.

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>>47144836
Wat

>>47144836
No that's too weird. You went too weird and it's too weird now.

>>47144862
>>47144877
There's an isopod irl that does that to fishes, it's probably a mutant that evolved to prey on other lifeforms, it's not big of a stretch

Have you seen some of the things you find in nature, that shit is horrifying

>>47144909
That's why we fantasize about better nature in Pathfinder

>>47144918
Oh you poor naive fool

>>47144836
That is fucked up but also fucking cool, not gonna lie

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>>47144909
I have a pretty good idea of what to do with that island...

>>47144836
You need to use your imagination for good rather than evil

>>47144862
>>47144877
>>47144918
>>47144955
>>47144995
>>47145016
There's deer on another, bigger island with no visible mouths, only slits where the nostrils are

An overlong gash runs along the underside of their bellies, lined with long forearms with grasping hands
The gash splits open to reveal gnashing, serrated canines
The deer have been learning how to swim

>>47145229

I'd suggest a tactical nuclear strike, but at this point, I'm afraid to think what might happen if they're exposed to radiation.

Sup pfg, Sorcerer player here.
I'm kind of having trouble keeping our rogue relevant without putting him at immense risk.
We're at level 15 and I already feel like I'm stealing his job via arcane eye and I've done everything to restrain myself from rubbing it in even further and taking Aram Zey's focus.

Anyway, I think its for the better that I rely on the Eye to at least scout out the terrain and find hostile monsters before we physically enter but I kind of feel him squirm a little whenever he looks ready to scout but I go and say "I cast arcane eye".

To describe our rogue a little, he basically took 10 levels in assassin to get hide in plain sight and likes to use it in conjunction with his ring of invisibility (another extremely costly investment).

The little guy (he's a kobold) really enjoys doing his job and I hate to take it away from him completely so I usually pour a good chunk of my resources on him and make sure he's fully buffed but it simply wont cut it anymore. Senses like scent, blindsense and even lifesense are extremely common things and non-trap environmental hazards like ongoing magical effects are becoming even more common so he keeps finding himself coming back to the group extremely injured or like today even got knocked out and would have died had the gm not taken a little fiat and let us hear his screams.

As a last resort and to be tested on the next session, I'm thinking about binding a small flying outsider with telepathy like maybe a consular imp to keep him company and report his condition to me every few seconds or maybe getting some sort of small flying creature and turn it into a fast zombie to act as a messenger of some kind. I considered a lantern archon but the rogue is LE so its sort of out of the question.

Basically I want to see if I can help him do his job without actually doing it myself.

>>47145294
Growth to a tremendously massive size and the development of wings for space flight

>>47145229
What the fuck is wrong with your islands?

Also this >>47144995>>47145294

I'm preparing to run Curse of the Crimson Throne for my 3 players and I'm taken aback by the difficulty.
The final boss is an APL+5 encounter spread across 10 creatures.
Is this thing supposed to be this difficult?

Yes, it's supposed to be difficult. But Vreeg is fought solo, so unless he somehow manages to Ghoul Touch half the party, he's going to be out maneuvered to the point of not being a challenge at all.

Also, please do the world a favor and don't run the adventure as-written. Be one of the good DMs and use the fixes that have been made to it. Or run something else where no one cares if you butcher it.

>>47145640
>Be one of the good DMs and use the fixes that have been made to it.
Stuff like dex to damage and counting as silver vs DR for pseudodragons so they don't get butchered by the imps?
I found a few of these and am going to implement them, but if you have one, I'd like to see some kind of compilation of those things.

>>47145666
>Stuff like dex to damage and counting as silver vs DR for pseudodragons so they don't get butchered by the imps?

...are you fucking retarded?

>>47145678
???
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5la1b?Imps-and-Pseudodragons

>>47145694
What in the absolute fuck do imps have to do with CoCT?

The answer is: Literally nothing, they are never mentioned nor do they come up at all in the campaign and what are you even talking about?

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>>47145714
Uh, dude.
>Imps and Dragons: A student at the Acadamae is required to undertake several dangerous steps in order to graduate—one of which is the summoning and bonding of an imp. Many students opt to take imps as familiars,
but just as many fail and let those imps get loose. As a result, imps are a constant problem in Korvosa. Nests of them lurk in the eaves of the city’s Shingles in packs, often attempting to ally with or manipulate city gangs. Fortunately, the indigenous pseudodragon population, creatures who dwelt in the region before Korvosa was founded and adapted readily to the city’s advent, are quite adept at keeping Korvosa’s imp population under control. Two or three times a year, the imps and pseudodragons take to flight in the skies above Korvosa and engage in mass battles, and the recent events trigger more of the same. In this event, a flight of four imps swoops down to attack the PCs, seeing them as possible easy
targets for gold and mayhem. On the second round of combat, a flock of a half-dozen pseudodragons swoops in to attack the imps, likely saving the PCs from being savaged by the tiny outsiders. The pseudodragons
generally avoid contact with humanoids and don’t stick around long after the fight’s over.

Moreover, Imp vs Pseudodragon battles are common in artwork for Korvosa. Like, this shit. But RAW, the fight is broken with the most likely result being the butchering of both players and pseudodragons, unless pseudodragons are given that feat.

>>47145754
Fuck, fucked up my greentext there.

>>47145714
All in all, Imp vs Pseudodragon battles are kind of an iconic Korvosan thing.
Your DM probably omitted it since it's broken RAW and thus best avoided unless fixed.
I don't want to make my players miss out on this gem of flavour, so I'd rather fix the battle instead to try and make it work as intended by fluff.

>>47145754
Serious question; Have you actually read the campaign? If you have, you'd probably have some inking that there are things you should actually be spending your time writing, and more chances to shove Imp/Pseudodragon fights into the campaign is not one of them.

>>47145871
I am the DM, and I didn't run that pointless event because it's a waste of time and completely out of place in that moment. The riots in the city are supposed to be a dramatic change in the landscape of the city, and stopping to say "Hey guys, remember this lore tidbit? Well here it is at level 2!" is a waste of time that should be spent on the actual narrative of the scenery.

Here's a tip: Extend the introduction segment so the players actually spend more than 5 minutes in Korvosa before it's completely ruined in front of them. Allow them to actually make some connections and learn the layout of the city as they hunt down Gaedren. Spend that time dropping hints about public opinion about the King and his health. And THEN you run the riot, once you've actually built it up so the players know why people are nuts that he's dead.

Or, just crack the book open and run it word for word because "lol its easier"

>>47145951
Oh, and I'm gonna throw in a free life lesson:

NEVER USE RANDOM TABLES. EVER.

I don't care if the book says "Here's a table, roll for what event to run" or it's just picking an encounter. Don't do it. You're a shit human being if you use random tables.

>>47145951
>I am the DM, and I didn't run that pointless event because it's a waste of time and completely out of place in that moment.
Paizo FAQ's literally say "put these events at any point during the first book", not "put them right before part 3". I wouldn't give any of those more than once and even then, I'd look for an appropriate moment.
>>47145951
>Here's a tip: Extend the introduction segment so the players actually spend more than 5 minutes in Korvosa before it's completely ruined in front of them. Allow them to actually make some connections and learn the layout of the city as they hunt down Gaedren. Spend that time dropping hints about public opinion about the King and his health. And THEN you run the riot, once you've actually built it up so the players know why people are nuts that he's dead.
I've already spent hours discussing Korvosan lore and life with my players. They already seem to love the city and are rather hyped for the campaign. I think that works as a replacer for the introduction, as I like the suggested pacing for the game start.
>>47145962
I didn't even intend to roll randomly. Chill, bruh.

>>47145962
>>47145988
>I think that works as a replacer for the introduction
I mean, as a replacer for expanding the introduction.
I want to keep the Gaedren bits mostly as in the book, just slightly reworking the layout of the fishery and some other details so it makes a bit more sense.

>>47145988
>I've already spent hours discussing Korvosan lore and life with my players
>I think that works as a replacer for the introduction
That's not a substitute for actually exploring the city in-character and you're a shit DM if you think it is. Giving them the Korvosa setting book and then just diving into changing everything about how the city works before they get a chance to actually experience it is not remotely the same thing. Seriously, I'm telling you how to not fuck this up.

The pace of the first book is the worst part of it and if you legitimately think the players gathering together in the beginning of session one and then having their life-shaping villain dead by the end of that session followed immediately by the city instantly being mid-riot is good pacing, you're beyond saving.

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>>47145330
*DANGER*
Any kind of spaceflight can cause a near instant and irreversible change in the party and campaign's direction.

This may be cool, of course. Just be ready. They're going to want to become space pirates.

>>47146073
>Giving them the Korvosa setting book
...Is the exact opposite of what I did.
I discussed it with them from the perspective of their characters, telling each a different story and describing the city in a different way to everyone, according to how their character would see it, including running short 1-on-1 bits about their characters' backstories.
(they made the characters a bit early, but we, unfortunately, can't yet all assemble together to start playing for a while more due to circumstances)

More from weird-island-bro?

>game cancelled last week
>game cancelled this week
>game cancelled next week
>I'll be out of state the week after

I think I need a new hobby.

>>47146157
Yeah, and you're still doing it wrong. But it's fine, you're happy with telling a mediocre story, because it's too much work to stop and think about what plot details might actually need fixing. Keep focusing on finding a place to shoehorn in that Imp scene, that's really what the campaign needs.

>>47146259
>badwrongfun

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>>47146259
>I don't care to add minor side-events into a campaign to make it more believable
>I think that my way of storytelling is the only way

Shine on, you crazy shitposter. Shine on.

>>47146254
>Players asked me to livestream our campaigns
>I put a fuck-ton of work into not only making it happen, but actually pulling in an audience for it. Busting my ass every week for this shit, all because they said they wanted it.
>It's been three weeks. We didn't play the last two weeks, and we likely won't play Sunday because it's Mothers Day.
>If they cancel, I'm just gonna walk away and say "Call me when you guys decided you want to actually get together."

>>47146275
We're not talking about "fun", we're talking about shit that makes sense.

But then, your games are episoding monster-of-the-week monty-haul hinjinks, so why would you ever care about the plot of a game being well-designed?

Look, I don't care if you want to run a shit game. Just don't pretend that's not the case by making excuses for not putting in the effort to do better. Just say you're happy with shit.

>>47146313
But, anon, I am working on making this thing better, looking for various different things to improve, looking through complete rewrites of the campaigh by various fans to see what to snatch, etc.
I just don't want to change the fishery in particular, at least not by much. I redesigned the fishery layout and am happy with how it is now.

>>47146350
>campaign
Silly typo.

>>47146284
>>I don't care to add minor side-events into a campaign to make it more believable

You really think adding an event where Imps attack the players and then are intercepted by a flock of pseudodragons makes the campaign more "believable"? Really?

You don't think that anyone would see how obvious it is for the players to see that literally it's just the DM saying "Hey, remember that thing we talked about, how there's a thing with Imps and Dragons in the city? Well here it is! Surprise!"? You think that actually adds anything to the story?

I'm serious, this is a serious question.

>>47146365
Ugh.
First, I (the DM of the discussed game) am not the dude you're replying to, that was another anon.
Second, no, it doesn't add to the story itself. I never claimed it does. But not everything has to directly contribute to the story and it's a fun bit of flavour to enliven the city with and I love this particular event.
If literally everything in a campaign is related directly to the overarching plot, it'd just feel dead IMO.

>>47146365
Are you the same guy who was of the opinion that custom-making a world map was pointless because it didn't add anything to the story and nobody would give a fuck?

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What is a positive energy based creature from the material plane? Does that include regular humanoids or other beings of energy we happen to share a plane with?

I'm specifically wondering in regards to the affected targets of a positive energy elemental's death throes.

D20PFSRD says:
>Positive energy based creatures (including creatures from the Material Plane) gain hit points equal to the amount of damage the death throes would have otherwise dealt.

Would that affect a gnome, half-orc, or human? Please help. I am new to this.

>>47147195
Everyone who is healed by positive energy effects, including most humanoids, such as gnomes, half-orcs, or humans.

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>>47147202
Thank you!

>>47147195
>>47147269
Where is that art from? Why is it so fucking horrific?

>>47142799

There are a few modules, like entombed with the pharaohs, the pactstone pyramid, etc and some PFS adventures - which are fairly short, but can probably be good as inspiration. Just go to their site, you can sort adventures by region.

>>47145754
>>47145714
>>47145871
That's been deleted for the rewrite of Curse of the Crimson Throne.

They're not pseudodragons any more, they're just tiny drake-like things that look a bit like pseudodragons but actually aren't.

>>47147431
Must be a spheres book

>>47147438

Are we talking fanmade rewrite or is an official one in the works?

Whats the ideal str to wis ratio for reach clerics?
Is 20 wis including the +6 circlet good enough or should I aim for a higher casting stat? What about str? Will 20 before buffs enough to get by?
How do I stay relevant when monster ACs start to skyrocket to 35+ while I'm still at +20~25 to hit?

I heard summoning was a thing but can you pull it off when you're a TN cleric and the lack sacred summons means you cant hold the front during the first round.

>>47144640

What levels are we talking about here? I think the entire tier structure takes a while to seriously impact the game.

>>47147433
Found that earlier actually, as well as nabbing Kobold Press's Southlands setting and the Wayfinders; which were better than what I expected for a free product. I've got ideas firmly in mind, and frankly I think doing a big desert sandbox will be a great deal of fun.

But thank you.

>>47147555
Depends on your focus and level. 20 is pretty low if you plan on getting enemies to fail saves regularly.

>>47144640
K, tell us more

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>>47147561
Beginning at level 1 to start with, it'll be pretty brutal for a while

>>47147555
Ideally your wis should be higher if you plan on making enemies perform any saves at all.

Remember guided weapons are a thing.

>>47147788
>>47147832
Looks like I'm in for an unwinnable game of catch up then. The wizard keeps the both of us battlemind-linked which helps but I made the blunder of taking the bare minimum casting stat to cast support and utility spells.

>>47147866
Just keep casting support and utility spells, and things that don't rely on saves to be effective (wall of stone, no save debuffs, save for half, etc.).

>>47147906
This. No save spells are god-tier, as well as spells with effects on a succeeded save.

Hello there /pfg/, I need your wisdom.

There's this player that never ever came up with a sub-optimal character build. Always going for the maximum possible burst damage and little more.
Anyways, this time he came up with a character that he says isn't optimized at all, but is in fact the result of multiclassing in 4 different classes and ends up dealing monstrous burst damage yet another time.
Far from being an "interesting character concept", it is (he even admitted it) a complete clhsterfuck.
Our current GM allowed it, and I don't have much to complain about the game, but I wouldn't allow this much class dipping without some serious justifications in my (under construction) campaign.
I mean, why would a paladin become interested in bardic performance, to then become interested in fighter training and then become an inquisitor?
More to the point, how can he so thoroughly train those many different skills when constantly fighting for his life?

>>47147949
Eh, out of those only bard stands out (Unless it's a paladin of Shelyn or some Empyreal Lord with Art or Beauty in the portfolio). A paladin taking a fighter dip to help with his martial techniques or an inquisitor dip to focus on hunting enemies down are reasonable choices.

>>47147927
The issue is for anyone who has played a caster from level 7-15. No save spells are generally relatively trash. They don't have a save for a reason, because their effects are not as strong as spells that require saves. They guarantee a smaller effect.

There is no such thing as a no save "save-or-die" besides Wish-Gaes and those cost 25kgp apiece.

Spells you need to focus on are things like environmental effects, wall of stone, wall of iron, sleet storm, sirocco, and the like. Also the use of things with no save that instead require touch attacks, like enervate.

Essentially remember this, if a spell has no save it is generally gonna be less powerful than one that does, or be an environmental effect.

Also remember, summoned monster don't have a save, they just hit things, but unless you invest and game the system summoned monsters are not that great. Summoned monsters are outperformed easily and only work as a concept due to how the action economy works, but fail miserably against certain configurations of enemies, die easily to AoE, are weak to mind control due to poor saves, and have low to hits and thus are weak against a few elite enemies.

>>47147949
>Inquisitor/Paladin/Fighter
This is fine to me, he is straddling the line between soldier, warrior of the faith, and enforcer of the faith. Those all work together. Being a bard is a little harder to fit but easy enough, churches have plenty of arts.

He could be a classically trained Faith Militant, receiving piecemeal training and thus a diverse set of skills.

>>47147977
If only he put it like that I would understand.
He clearly, openly stated he made these choices just to gain access to the bonuses these specific classes gave him. Not in terms of "fighting off evil's many forms", but "this gives me cha bonus to saves".
That is what gets on my nerves.

Speaking of clerics, Are bad touch clerics really viable? The spell seems to be quite lackluster and I dont see much of a future payoff for investing in improving your touch's attack roll.

>>47148001
Agreed it does mostly make sense, my pet peeve is on the reasons. None of these choices was even slightly justified as character progression happened and none this was even hinted at in his background before these choices were made.

>I might actually be just a whiny little bitch

>>47148049
Harm + Quickened Maximized Inflict Critical.

If you invest in it at level 11 you can do it as if you were CL 15 (mage's tattoo necromancy, bloodmage initiate, that one ioun stone). You cast harm normally, doing 150 damage on a failed save (you push you save really fucking high using spell focus necromancy and improved spell focus. Push your wisdom score as far as you think you can. Age yourself and cast age resistance since you're level 11).

Use a quicken rot on the inflict critical and maximize, using the trait to reduce the spell level increase of maximize by 1.

Does a total of 150+32+15= 197 damage if they fail both saves.

This kills most level 11 creatures, but costs two of your highest spell slots, and a use of your quicken rod.

May be more viable as an oracle.

>>47148065
>I might actually be just a whiny little bitch
You sound like one, but he also sounds like a problem in this regard. So, I don't know, sucks to suck I suppose.

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Hai guys, what's happening in this thread?

>>47148074
Maybe I'm just spoiled by Arcane casters but I take a few issues with this combo.
The fact that you have to touch someone makes it quite a disadvantage on its own right. If you're close to someone you're forced to make a concentration check to cast defensively, If you're far from someone you have to eat an AoO to deliver the touch spell after casting it from a safe distance. Then the'res the fact that you risk missing (a very small chance but still a chance), Then the save for partial effect which is actually still pretty damn effective specially since its not randomized damage but then SR rears its ugly head to fuck you up once again.

Reach spell fixes this somewhat but kills the point of the build, and I suppose the lack of metamagic means it wont be abusable by spell perfection since you'd want reach,piercing harm at best.

Its still cool I though, and critting for 300 damage after an SR, touch and opposed save is still pretty damn impressive and will probably make everyone they were the cleric.

>>47148079
Well, thanks for your feedback.

>I'm trying my best to avoid becoming "that guy" but it can be hard sometimes