/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

>>47052963
>Is Mage 2e any good?
Yes.

>By contrast, the Exarchs also direct Seers to protect humanity from existential threats, and renew the vault seals of ancient horrors called the Bound. Not even the Tyrants wish to rule a kingdom of ashes. More than once in history, this has required making common cause with the Diamond — primarily the Silver Ladder, but occasionally the Guardians of the Veil and the Mysterium.
[Need to know more intensifies]

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So!

Am I seriously the only person who liked Beast?

>>47052963
Anybody have a PDF of those condition cards made for April Fool's last year?

>>47053027
People who like Beast aren't actually people so no.

>>47052963
>Is Mage 2e any good?

Clearly the answer can only be found by another thread full of bitching about Ichneumon.

>>47053038
...

OK. Why do people have such a problem with it?

The most glaring issues were fixed and the rest can be cleared up in other books.

Prime and Forces best Arcana.

Obrimos Master Ra.. eh.. Path.

>>47053071
Because it's unfocused as hell.
What do you DO in Beast?

>>47053102
By itself? Not much. You use it as a toolkit for crossover play, you use it to make antagonists, or you can give it to players who want to play something a little different in a chronicle.

>>47053045
Now let's talk about Baphomet! It's typical of Onyx Path's low test writers that all their characters are passively waiting for the arrival of the player characters to break the status quo but geez talk about missed opportunity. You got old titty mcgoathead a multimaster goetic lich who apparently hasn't been doing shit since dying except for trying to get the astral devil to stop grope him/her. You'd think she/he could at least find some time to go find his/her waifu/husbando in the astral realms or something.
>>47053071
The premise isn't that strong and the game's too much about resource management. If it'd have just been a straight up knock-off of the bygone bestiary I'd be jizzing all over it but as it stands its pretty meh

>>47053144
And that is exactly my problem with it.
You are a Beast. You have nothing to do.

But now let's stuff Beast. We have Mage to argue about.
Magic is broken AF with a Master being able to kill anyone with three successes.

>>47053027
>>47053071
>>47053144
I don't hate it. It's a bit disappointing, but has potential. It lacks focus, and Matt's game design beliefs leave much to be desired, but it's not terrible, just lackluster. I a good supplement can turn it around.

I don't need a crossover play toolkit for making antagonists. Hunter already exists, and it's easier to use.

>>47053162
Baphomet isn't waiting for you to do anything. They exist as a monster for you to fight. The way you break their Status Quo is with murder. That's what you do with Liches.
Although, if there's anyone who'd be stuck in a status quo rut, it's a lich.

>>47053185
>>47053184
>>47053162

I understand now.

Thank you.

Oh!

Recenty combed through a read through with quotes of M20.

I now have a newfound hatred and loathing of Phil "Satyros" Brucato.

>>47053185
But he/she doesn't do anything except be a loser in the Astral Realms. How can people go hunt monsters who don't even bother to be monstrous?

>>47053184
>Magic is broken AF with a Master being able to kill anyone with three successes.

How?

>>47053246
Mind Unmaking, for instance. Destroy someone's mind.
Use a Praxis. Exceptional Success on three successes.
One Exceptional Success option is "ignore Withstand".

>>47053184
Minds always broken. WoD is made for people with mindrape fetish.

>>47053261
>Mind Unmaking, for instance. Destroy someone's mind.

Not how the practices work.

>>47053273
Or Life unmaking. Stop them from Living.
Or Death making. Make them dead.
Or Time unmaking. Freeze them forever.
Or Space unmaking. Lock them in place forever.
Or Prime unmaking. Destroy their patterns.
Or Forces unmaking. Stop all movement.

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>>47053294

>>47053226
Sounds like this will be a stupid thing that makes me angry, and will probably involve accusations of "pretentious".
Please don't continue.

>>47053232
She haunts dreams.

>>47053318
Frozen time is still time. Unmaking Time would mean removing someone from time entirely.

>>47053347
>Frozen time is still time. Unmaking Time would mean removing someone from time entirely.

Right! I was thinking way too conservatively.

What does Fate unmaking do?

>>47053347
Oh yeah that's impressive. Master of mind and best she/he/she/he/she/he/it can do is hang around like a creep in people's dreams. Changelings fresh off the boat from Arcadia can do that its not impressive

>>47053381
Makes you totally and utterly inconsequential even in the most minuscule way.

>>47053388
Look, you do some desperate things in a bid for immortality. If the choice is become a soulless dream monster or die the painful death of leprosy...

>>47053413
Fuck that shit though, I end up as some big titted goat man in the astral realms I'm gonna party so hard the Exarchs are going to have to come down to stop me.
**The real sweet lichdom though is the Bene Elohim, nothing stopping them from casting Alter Spirit on themselves and making the local Uratha freak the fuck out because they're like an Idigam but better**

So. Is it just me, or is Giant one of the best defensive merits when it comes to magic?

>>47053464
>Not being the triple threat of Lich/Banisher/Reaper while also having Bloodlines
Keep never reaching the Seventh Watchtower.

>>47053506
"So, if I get this right. You are a soul-eating monster, who can also summon the shades, and arms of ages-dead Vikings?"

>>47053524
>'When in doubt, just ashtray it.'

>>47053524
I meant the Tremere. Stygian Heralds were profoundly underwhelming to me when I was looking for a Moros Legacy.

>>47053506
>not being an Exarch
lol plebs

>>47053573
There is a Tremere House that does that.
Seo Hel.

>>47051855
>Hunting Ventrue just to rob their vaults filled with arcane artifacts and thousands of years worth of loot.
Oh god that sounds amazing.

>>47053601
Oh, awesome.

>>47053688
Or Hunting Seer storehouses. The Masks are obviously Relics. And the Aegis are clearly a Labyrinth for the Guardians, so you'd rob Seers.

>>47053787
So how do a gang of bank robbers join the Aegis Kai Doru? And what would the masks do?

I posted in the old thread like an idiot.

>>47051739 #

Had one of my players make a sacred prostitute and one of my stock NPCs is a self-styled love goddess. They're gonna be Decree of Heart no matter what, but any Guild can fit; if they's a honeypot then they're Maa-Kep, if they put mystic value into the transferent act of sex then they're Mesen-Nebu or Tef-Aabhi, etc.

>>47051855 #

I wrote them up as a Cult on the forums; Carnivale/Black List, a Conspiracy of professional thieves that wear the masks of Irem's sacred animals when they kill or steal.

>>47053848
They tried to rob an Aegis Labyrinth and were offered a job. The Masks obscure their identities supernaturally. Probably also give benefits similar to the Masque merit.

>>47053913
>you actually answered my dumb Oglaf question
You're not bad.

>>47053690
Yeah. They draw upon the souls they have bound to themselves, and create weapons and tools from their personas. When using these tools, they use the wielder's skill.

>>47053913
>Conspiracy
What was there special endowments?

>>47053951
Thats good I like it

Imbued Items look like shit.
Arcana rating of the spell + wielder's Gnosis.
"Here sleepwalker, take this magic ring, it'll shoot magical fire at whatever you point it at. It will protect you!"
Four dice.

>>47053981
I think he means in the traditional sense of the world. Although either way the magical masks would be obvious.

>>47053913
Animal masks sounds more like Hotline Miami, although you could easily merge the two into one concept.

>>47053994
You're using them wrong.

>>47053994

It's actually worse. Since each use requires at least one mana, it'll only work a few times.

As with Mage 1e, your average pistol or rifle if often far more deadly than lightening and fireballs, and without most of the supernatural complications.

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Does anyone know of somewhere I can watch a short/small cWoD game online? my Youtube-fu fails me. I prefer with video, so I can see the dice pools in action, but a recorded audio session would work too. I just want to see and get a feel for the game beyond just reading the rules.

I plan to run a game for my group next year. They haven't had the best of experiences with more gothic games, and are not sure about the system. So, I would like to go in better prepared. I'll also probably try a Roll20 game later in the year.

>>47053951

You say Mummy and I try to be there.

>>47053981

Conspiracy as in "Cult type that gains bonuses to Grasp" not "Hunter group with Endowments."

>
Cult (8, Conspiracy): Reach 0, Grasp 5, Obedient, Paranoid

>Mystery Cult Initiation:
1: Gain a Larceny Specialty of your choosing.
2: Gain the Contacts (International Crime) Merit at one dot.
3: Gain a dot in one of the following Skills: Subterfuge, Intimidate, Firearms
4: Gain the Resources Merit at three dots.
5: Your character is gifted one of the magical jackal masks of the Carnivale, imposing a -3 penalty on all mundane and supernatural attempts to connect her to acts and crimes committed while wearing it. This penalty does not apply while wearing the mask; rather, it makes her difficult to track down once it has been removed, usually after a heist or assassination.

>>47054049
Yeah, I'm new to Mage and might be misreading, but it seems like if you can achieve something without magic, you're better off doing it that way, and magic only excels at things it's simply impossible/excessively impractical to do mundanely.

>>47054051
wait theres rules for Cults now? I am confused. I thought we were talking about Hunters

I'd've liked a shoutout to atypical path configurations in the DM section
The Circle of Degrees and Banishing and Summoning from the storytellers guide were pretty cool

>>47054066
>>47053994
2e especially is a game where being an occultist is more useful than being a D&D wizard. Pew pew isn't the useful thing, ritual and ceremony is the useful thing.

In 1e, ritual and ceremony were only used to break the game with stacking Potency, while in 2e they're the default.

>>47054078
He made them a Mummy Cult.

>>47054066
That's a big theme of Mage, yes.
Do stuff normally, back it up with magic.

>>47054049
Ah well. That's just the Merit. If one does them oneself they seem to be "seal this spell in an object".

>>47054089
>I'd've liked a shoutout to atypical path configurations in the DM section
What do you mean?

>>47054129
>2e especially is a game where being an occultist is more useful than being a D&D wizard. Pew pew isn't the useful thing, ritual and ceremony is the useful thing.
Sure, that's more in like with the WoD. Still, it's disappointing to look over Forces and see spells to hurl thunderbolts like Zeus and realize they suck and aren't ever worth it.

>>47054132
>Do stuff normally, back it up with magic.
So it seems. A bit disappointing. Maybe Mage isn't for me.

>>47054129
>Mummy Cult
Why?

>>47054150
>So it seems. A bit disappointing. Maybe Mage isn't for me.

Of course, this could mean "Conjure a sword, smite them with it".

There is plenty of mysticism in the game.

>>47054150
>Not being a bodyguard for your Archmage boss
>Not enchanting your AR to fire magic missiles
>Not enchanting your plate carrier vest to repair after every bullet impact.
>Not ripping up pieces of concrete to create cover
God I really want to play a militant Mage campaign.

>>47054221
...Damn it. Yes.
So do I.

>>47054221
You can do all that. Enchantments that bolster mundane activities seem ideal. But it's not what I really think about normally when I hear the word mage.

>>47054265
you got a skype or something? I need to find more people to play WoD with

>>47054272
I get what you mean but I like magic when theres a touch of realism. It makes all the crazy shit that happens much more impactful.

>>47054139
Banishing and summoning for instance, did away with weak arcana, and instead split a bonus amongst Practices between the 'Banishing' and 'Summoning' (or preceding and following) Arcana in front of and behind your Strong Aracana
The degrees approach was a general freedom to choose two strong and a weak arcana
both ways shortly described the metaphysics or culture of those Path changes and how they might satisfy different approaches or expectations from play, so it would be a good fit for a GM section

>>47054278
I do. But three games a week is too much already...

>>47054331
I only have 1 regular game and 1 thats irregular. I get what you mean tho 3 is usually my hard limit too. Still want to add anyway? Can always use more /tg/ folks to talk too.

Skype name in nametag. Everyone else can add me too. Just let me know your from /tg/

>>47054349
what kind of name is rhyss anyway

australians are weird

>>47054278
anyone who lives in Sydney is welcome to check out my real life group
Currently running FFG Star Wars but have been writing up a mage chronicle in anticipation of the release

>>47054391
I am aussie too but in SA add me on skype bro

>>47054150
Thunderbolts are great. So are rocket propelled grenades.
There's a reason you shouldn't use either under most circumstances.

>>47054151
Man likes Mummy.

>>47054326
I'm not sure what you mean.

>>47054411
alternatives to the 5 paths, Mastigos, Moros, Acanthus etc

Does Aggravated damage still ignore armour/durability in 2e?

>>47054422
But why would that be in the corebook? That's more a thing for a Storyteller's Guide. Or even a Player's Guide, but the Paths are more set in stone than the Auspices or Clans.

>>47054396
yeah okay, I'll probably manage it much later today

Can Temporal Summoning (Time 3) un-supernatural a supernatural with Temporal Sympathy? If you can bring the dead back to life by overwriting them with a past self, surely you could overwrite a vampire with their self before their Embrace.

>>47054151

Mummy has rules for having a subservient Cult
I wrote up several examples, one of which being the Totally Not Payday Crew, and described them both as a Cult for a Mummy to own and as a Mystery Cult to join.

>>47054441
You could try. Whether or not it would work would depend on whether or not your ST is using Requiem vamps, and whether or not they've read Imperial Mysteries, and know that bit about all the splats having their own patrons in the Ascension War

Do mages get the easiest "lel Defense against firearms" in the game now?

>>47054459
Celerity?
Being a werewolf?

>>47054459
Pretty sure the easiest firearm defense is still Werewolves, who defend against them by default in any non-Hishu form.

But Mages do have fantastic defense with Acceleration.

>>47054463
Fortitude?
Do Bullets still count as Bashing to vampires?

>>47054432
I'm thinking of analogues such as making up bloodlines in Vampire
a counterquestion would be, why not?
The core book offers rules alternatives for core game mechanics, and it wouldn't detract with the default presentation

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So! Thinking of siccing this guy on my players tomorrow when we run our VTM Chronicle. What do you think?

Too OP for neonates?

>>47054463
Celerity isn't actually Defense against firearms.

>>47054491
Dots of Celerity penalize Firearms attacks, which is basically what defense is.

>>47054472
All attacks are downgraded now. As long as shit isn't supernatural in origin, it does Bashing.

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>Mystery Cult Influence (•••, ••••, or •••••)
>Effect: Your character has influence over a Mystery Cult (see p. 106) without actually being a subordinate member. Perhaps your character is a “power behind the throne” or even worshiped as a deity. Your character benefits from the same level of Mystery Cult Initiation, without having to be tied to the cult. This means fewer responsibilities to the cult, plausible deniability if they’re revealed, and the ability to step away at any time.

Shit, son, what in the flying fuck is this?

You can have 10 dots of merits for 5 dots with absolutely no downsides!

>>47054491
>>47054497
It takes a Celerity + Auspex devotion to get defence against firearms.
It's one of the best devotions in the game.

>>47054517
Are devotions even around in Vampire 2e?

I need to take my name off I keep forgetting too.

>>47054498
Huh really? I understood the logic of Bullets counting as bashing because the wounds are not severe enough to cripple a vampire and you cant kill a vampire due to blood loss or organ failure. But something like an axe can gouge out flesh or remove limbs so they are more dangerous.
Seems weird that its now Bashing as well. It also makes taking a blade to fight a vampire useless so might as well take a bat or sledge hammer

>>47054484
Increase his appearance to 5 because Vicissitude lets you do that for free.
What Koldunic Sorcery path is it? Path of Fire is the most broken shit.

Not sure why he has Protean, I mean it's useful but Viscisstude 4 is way better because raw strength increase.

>>47053084
>Obrimos

>dat rainbow fire

Is it because he's a Silver Ladder or is the Celestial Fire just naturally gay as fuck?

>>47054508
>Absolutely no downsides
Except, yknow, having to manage a cult
The moment your sleeper cult decides its time they all drink poison, because the guy below you said so and they don't know you exist, is the moment you gain 5 merit dots to redistribute elsewhere.

>>47054540
Did not know he could take appearance 5 for free.

Protean is for a combo discipline.

This is V20

He does have Path of Fire.

>>47054498
Extensive full-body trauma and the like is still Lethal - getting run over by a bulldozer is going to paste a vamp, not bruise them.

>>47054534
Blades cut tendons, destroy veins and arteries, cut flesh.. all of which Vampires don't really care about. They're dead all over.

Everything is Bashing to a vampire unless it's a bane, supernatural damage, or gross physical trauma.

>>47054525
Well. Yeah. That's why I said it. Quicken Sight.

>>47054534
Here is the Rationale:

unds that would easily kill even the hardiest of humans.
Kindred take only bashing damage from many sources that
would normally cause lethal damage to humans. This includes
most non-supernatural weapons. A sword slices through a
Kindred body the way it would a human; it’s just that vampires
don’t have the same need for stable flesh, working organs, and
intact blood vessels. A mortal whose viscera splay across a city
street is most certainly doomed, whereas a vampire recovers
after only minor inconvenience and a small investment of Vitae.

>>47054545
He is a Mysterium actually.

>>47054481
Bloodlines' equivalent is Legacies.
Also, the corebook doesn't really offer many rules for alternative game styles. It doesn't have the space for it.

>>47054491
>>47054517
>Persistent: Add the vampire’s dots in Celerity to her Defense, or to her Dodge roll when defending actively. If a Firearms attack denies her normal Defense, the attacker still takes a penalty on his attack equal to the vampire’s dots in Celerity. A character must still be aware of incoming attacks to defend against them.

>When activated, Quicken Sight lasts for a turn. The vampire can examine the details on fast-moving items, and respond to things outside the normal human spectrum. She can read multiple pages of text in three seconds. She can apply her Defense to ranged attacks, and can benefit from aiming instantly

Celerity still provides Defense against Firearms. Quicken Sight just gives you more than just your Celerity dots.

>>47054569
>He is a Mysterium actually.

Soit's not a choice & Prime effects are inherently fruity?

>>47054549
>Except, yknow, having to manage a cult

No, that's Mystery Cult Initiation 5 (cult leader).

Mystery Cult INFLUENCE lets you be hands off.

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>>47054459
werewolves get defense against firearms as a basic template ability.
awoo~

>>47054580
You'd still lose the merit if the cult ceased to exist, m8

>>47054575
that space is limited is fair, but the mage GM section does propose a list of alternative rules and alternative paths aren't comprehensive to describe and would have been nice to see in that spot too. Nothing stopping me or anyone from pulling them from the Chroniclers Guide I found them in.

>>47054583
Werewolves are still the best splat. I want to see a Werewolf vs a Mage.

>>47054566
>>47054569
Eh I guess. It just feels a bit too over powered now. I mean being resistant to guns was already fucking nuts but now pretty much all forms of damage? And you can regenerate? Damn son.

>>47054589
But if the ST kills your cult when the merit explicitly says you don't need to be involved in t day to day, then they're being a dick for no reason

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>>47054561
Okay well Path of Fire 2 is literally the most powerful power in the game. Combined with Path of spirits, it lets you murder people any where.

Seriously, it does agg fire damage per success. And it's levels, not fucking dice but levels. You will kill players if you toss that thing around.

If you really want to go full Dio, I'd recommend dropping Path of Fire for Viscisstude 5 and use this Vis 5 power from DAV20 instead of the V20 because the V20 one is terrible.

>>47054603
Vampires are much more durable now than before, but they've still got all their classic weaknesses, and can be overwhelmed through sheer volume of damage.

>>47054608
The poison-drinking example is maybe not a great one; the point is, the cult is still a vulnerability that could be attacked or manipulated to fuck with the Mage in question.

>>47054625
>the cult is still a vulnerability that could be attacked or manipulated to fuck with the Mage in question

How, the whole point of the new merit is that you have no ties to it except all the bennies you get from being a disinterested pseudo-leader. If you can be affecteted by the cult then you have the wrong merit.

I get that he's tried to replicate the relationship one of the character's in his AP had with their cults, but the merit is poorly worded

>>47054534
>>47054603
A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
"Blunt=less damage" is a stupid RPG convention.
Yes, damned walking corpses animated by magic and the stolen lifeblood of the living are resistant to physical trauma, including stabbing or cutting.

>>47054608
You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.

>>47054620
I tried to make Tzimisce in Requiem 2e and the way Disciplines are set up in Masquerade is just so ridiculous. When you need to be even more of an ancient blood god just to fly...
I made Zulo form by giving two additional Protean Aspects and no time limit.

>>47054652
Because, even if you aren't tied to it directly, your connections to the cult stop giving you any benefits if a Seer purees them all behind your back, because everyone's dead.

>>47054668
>A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
Sometimes. The thing is, the human body is quite resilient in some fashions and quite weak in others. It also depends on location struck. Blunt trauma transmits a lot of force, but a sword can penetrate. I'd rather get hit with a hammer in the stomach than stabbed in the stomach.

But most of the time, yeah, blunt damage is deadlier than cuts.

>>47054668
You don't need them to fly, you need them to summon the wings on demand. It's entirely possible to have the wings without being in the form. The form literally is just for the purpose. And that it does Agg damage and gives more strength.

Also the Gargoyle Flight Discipline does exactly that too, and anyone can learn that too.

>>47054668
>A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
I would disagree and it depends where you are hit. Hit in the chest? Broken rib cage and more then likely internal bleeding.
With a sword? Punctured lungs and heart. Massive bleeding wounds too.

>>47054620
ooh!

Did not realize that Path of Fire was broken as shit.

I want to give my players a challenge not to grind them into dust. (There's only two guys who've actually stuck with it, ones a Ravnos the others a Toreador. The toreador is also a former serial killer, the Ravnos has amnesia and is more focused on mental and social things)

I put Dio as his concept cause I really couldn't think of anything else to put there after doing the stats

>>47054700
Yeah but it'd be a bitch of a time getting a Gargoyle that can even teach it to you let alone one that's willing.

>>47054696
>>47054707
I'd rather get hit in the arm with a sword than have it crushed by a hammer, because unlike in the movies a sword won't chop off your arm. It also won't crush your ribs so badly that your own skeleton punctures your soft fleshy internals.

>>47054700
It seemed like a waste of a Discipline level. And there was firebreathing, too, for some reason?

>>47054668
>You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.

Again, that's Mystery Cult INITIATION 5.

>>47054772
You don't need to be directly involved in the cult. You still need to be involved with it period. You don't get your Mystery Cult Influence Merit if you aren't actually Influencing your Mystery Cult.

>>47054709
>Did not realize that Path of Fire was broken as shit.
It's stupidly broken. Avoid at all cost except for BBEG tier shit.

>>47054724
>Yeah but it'd be a bitch of a time getting a Gargoyle that can even teach it to you let alone one that's willing.
Hellishly easier than you think. Just need to find one in your local Sabbat group and pay him a boon. Hard to get, but not impossible.

But like I said, you can just flesh craft yourself wings that work completely fine.

>>47054759
>It seemed like a waste of a Discipline level. And there was firebreathing, too, for some reason?

The fire breathing is a relic of the older editions, the new shit is turning into a dragon that turns you into a fucking unstoppable monster. The marauder form is amazingly good though once you get it just for the wings.

So a Gnosis 5 Mage rolls 3 paradox dice PER Reach but Mana only removes 1 dice per point?

>>47054668
>You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.

You are BACKING the cult. Not leading it.
Sure, you need the cult, but it's lot less than Mystery Cult Initiation •••••

Geez these Mage Armors are beefy.

>>47054843
You're influencing it.

>>47054823
>The fire breathing is a relic of the older editions, the new shit is turning into a dragon that turns you into a fucking unstoppable monster. The marauder form is amazingly good though once you get it just for the wings.
I meant "this power does not feel like it is impressive or interesting enough to be a new level of the Discipline". And the impression I got was that you need it for the wings. It comes with a few other benefits, but they're ultimately pretty minor for the seventh level of a Discipline. Isn't it a little unnecessary to need 7 dots before you can do aggravated? Especially considering the other things Tzimisce can do.

>>47054922
Eh. And expensive.
But thankfully they don't take up spell slots any more.

>>47054934
6th dot one, but yes Vic is known to fall off hard after level 5 because level is mastery of flesh crafting. I mean, each dot also lowers the difficulty of flesh crafting rolls but still it is known to suck compared to Protean which becomes amazing at 6+ dots

>>47054953
You consider one mana for a scene expensive?

So, auto-kills at 4 and 5 dots aside, mages are actually kinda weak now, right?

>>47054966
They don't seem weak to me at all, but I don't have a previous edition Mage baseline to compare them to. They can do a lot of things nobody else can and with a bit of preparation seem likely to fuck anything else's day up.

>>47054962
And one mana for every few attacks, yes.

>>47054966
I mean, Demons can auto-kill at creation... So I would say needing 5 dots to do it is pretty weak.

>>47054980
Weaker in the sense they can now do anything rather than everything, like the previous edition

>>47054982
>And one mana for every few attacks, yes.
No, it says Mage Armor remains active all scene.

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>>47054955
I'm tired, and can't count at the best of times, much less 3am.

For my Tzimisce thing (that I need to rewrite), I'm honestly proud of my Viccissitude rules, even if they need polishing. My version of Tzimisce (which again, definitely need a rewrite after Chris tore it apart and made me realize they were "Double Ventrue") focuses more on the way I keep seeing them talked about, as extreme bodymodders and artists with freaky tastes. Their Clan Discipline is Protean, but they call it Viccissitude, and it tends to take different forms.

Also, I wonder if I should make them Daeva instead of Ventrue...

>>47054966
They're incredibly powerful. More so than before, really. It just takes actual effort, which is a good thing.
They feel more like wizards than superpsychics.

>>47055023
Not the good ones.

>>47055059
All the good ones do. Some of them allow you to spend 1 mana in response to an attack optionally for even more benefit, but the base stuff remains.

Fate, for instance, is a scenelong +Fate to Defense, and allows you to apply Defense vs Firearms. If you successfully Dodge an attack, you then add Fate to your next attack as bonus weapon rating.

But you don't have to. You still get the buffed Defense.

>Fifth-degree masters are vanishingly rare anyway

What is this bullshit?

>>47055098
Wait wait wait...

So you can get the already annoyingly high Defense of Wits/Dex + Athletics, and throw dots in an arcana on top of it?

We already talked about the new defense edging on high in these threads before, and I was okay with the explanation of why that typically isn't the case... but this sounds... annoying.

>>47055124
Reasonable.

>>47055130
Completely true.

Mages get bullshit high Defense and are basically untouchable by anything but supernatural powers.

>>47055177
>the magic people need to be targeted by other magic people

I know right, like, what the heck guys

>>47055130
>So you can get the already annoyingly high Defense of Wits/Dex + Athletics, and throw dots in an arcana on top of it?
Mages are beefy, yes. 15 Defense once you get the relevant traits persistently.

>>47055209
>magic must defeat magic

Yet again.

>>47055213
Are you suggesting a sleeper could kill a werewolf or Vampire any easier without magic?

>>47055237
Probably, yeah.

>>47055209
While that sounds well and good on paper, I think this is sort of a worrying trend overall in OP's products. It gets to the point where the mundane gets mooked way too easily.

Yeah mages should REALLY be afraid of bumping into some abyssal creature of doom, but that doesn't mean they should be able to walk into a room of angry guys with shotguns, and be like 'eh, bunch of normies, nothing bad could possibly happen!' and start dancing a jig.

In the 1st edition books, often 'Humans' would be listed as one of the main antagonists for every splat, because if you screw up, if you don't keep the secret of your splat, and humans wise up... hunters or not, they could be a thorn in your side or even get you killed just out of their natural ignorance and fear.

But now creeps can often just snap their fingers and mortals drop dead, or worse.

Guys, I don't think that the solution to the "Mages are almighty Batmen" problem of 1st ed should've been to make them useless.

>>47055237
It's definitely easier to kill vampires than mages or werewolves.

>>47055266
Well, these high Defense ratings do require you build toward them. And even then, Mage regeneration isn't the best from what I can see, so if a group of guys opens fire, even if only a couple of them hit, that's some pain.

They're not like Werewolves who, so long as they don't die, will be absolutely fine in a couple hours at no cost.

>>47053027
I like it.

>Your character’s Signature Nimbus is particularly overbearing. Whenever a character scrutinizes her Signature Nimbus with Mage Sight, he’s subject to the effects of her Immediate Nimbus and its corresponding Tilt

What sort of jackass would take this merit.

>>47053334
The always is italicized here. I think that means you can't ignore Withstand with an exceptional success with them. Still, with that much magic you could do plenty of stuff that would be the equivalent of death, so it doesn't really matter.

Wait, so you only roll once to cast any spell. By default your spell takes one interval of your ritual casting time (3 hours to 20 mins), unless you use a Reach (which you get for free from Arcarnum rating) to cast instantly. Or you can have your ritual interval recur in exchange for bonuses to your dice pool.

Right?

And if I have 3 in my Arcarnum and my spell has a Duration as the primary factor, I can Reach (again free) once to push it into advanced duration, then if I take no penalties from it I get to increase it from one scene to one week without penalty or cost.

Right?

>>47055490
>(3 hours to 20 mins)
3 hours to 20 TURNS

>>47055534
Yeah, my bad.

But the rest is right, yeah?

proximi seem cool as fuck now. how bad would it be/how much shit would i get if i uncap the number of dots of blessings they can learn?

>>47055610
Wth, is 30 not enough for you man?

My real question is, why only one example family? There was only the one right?

>>47055631
yes, 30 is not enough. i must be able to get every possible blessing i could have access to if i poured infinite xp into it. Also it means i can just grab blessings as i need/want within the constraints without having to decide on a complete list of blessings i'm stuck with at chargen.

yeah it's thin on the example families.

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>5 Reach: Summon an Abyssal entity of Rank 2

>If the Paradox roll that inflicted this Condition rolled an exceptional success, she gains the Open Condition instead.

>(Requires Open Condition) By spending 2 Essence, the entity adds the Fettered Condition to itself

>>47054498
Targeted attacks to the head still does lethal to vamps.

>>47055770
Why would their Brain matter?

>>47055770
It does? Looking at the rules on p. 90 I can't see a word about that.

>>47054517
Yeah, for one vitae per round. It's far and away the most costly firearms defense ability. Not to mention that only Mekhet will be able to get it right off the bat. Every other clan is looking at several sessions worth of exp before they can get it.

I just had a really strange idea for something to do with the Dead Wolves...Give them branches in the Mekhet and the Nossies. With Disciplines you get the three from you parent clan plus an additional discipline from one of the other clans in the Dead Wolves. The Devotion layout for the bloodline is pretty weird as well; The devotions in the first tier are all centered around your fourth Discipline, so the minimum number of them is 9 (3 for each parent Clan and three within those for the possible fourth disciplines). In the second tier it focuses on the Clan-specific disciplines, so there are at least 3 of them (Nossie+Mekhet, Mekhet+Gangrel, Gangrel+Nossie), the final devotion requires all three Clan-specific Disciplines to work and there is only one of it.

Now that all of the Devotion jargon is out of the way, lets talk about the weaknesses of the Bloodline; Gangrel become more likely to Frenzy around the phase of the moon the coincides with the time of their embrace, Mekhet have the Bane of Silver, and Nossies start with a number of random Wolfblooded Tells equal to their Humanity.

So.. if a spell has Primary factor Potency, then that's practically extra successes, only that they don't count towards Exceptional Success, right?

>>47055277
>Guys, I don't think that the solution to the "Mages are almighty Batmen" problem of 1st ed should've been to make them useless.
>useless

Read the Yantra section then come back

>>47055941
I think so.
For example: You have Forces 4, Gnosis 3, and try to shoot a Thunderbolt at someone. You have one free reach, so you use that one to upgrade to Advanced Range, which is Sensory.

There is no talk about it being Withstood, so you just roll 7 dice.
And let's say that gives you two successes, then you deal 6 Lethal to the guy.

"This allows the mage to create Extreme Environments of nearly any kind up to Level 5"

Holy hell! I thought they only went up to 4. What is 5? Instant death?

>>47056011
Every turn maybe? that's fucking brutal

>Supernatural beings like mages, vampires, or demons do not add their Supernatural Tolerance trait to Withstand a spell.

.....fucking mage supremacy

>>47056073
Well. Does anyone add their Supernatural Tolerance to Resisted rolls?
No. And that's just dice penalties.

>>47055490
you get penalties for increasing it from one scene to one week.

>>47056094
>After penalties have been applied for the desired spell factors, the player may move the primary factor up its chart a number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one.
>For example, a Forces spell with a primary spell factor of Duration would last for 5 turns when cast by a mage with her Forces Arcanum rated at 3 and a –2 penalty to her casting roll.
>This advancement is voluntary — mages don’t always choose to cast at full power.

They get freebie steps = arcarnum-1, on top of any they paid for with reach


>+1 Reach: The subject’s ephemeral form is so refined she can cast this spell and become immaterial even in realms where Twilight normally doesn’t exist.

>sweating_Demons.jpg

I'm curious about how effective a mage is when caught with their pants down. Let's run some sample starting mage powers against an angry charging Gauru. I know it's a bit unfair on the mage since it means the werewolf has already turned to the war form but it's a bit of a worse case scenario.

Framework: You have (Arcana) at 3 and Gnosis 1. That gives you 2 Yantras. The Gauru will reach you in 1 round, so you have 1 mana available to spend.

Forces: Invisibility won't help much as the werewolf can smell you. Gravitic Supremacy seems a worse choice than just using Control Gravity. So, Control Gravity on the area the Gauru is in. It's also 2 dots so I have 2 free Reach rather than the 1 with Gravitic Supremacy.

I have base 4 dice. 1 Reach goes straight on Instant cast, the second on being able to target at range.

Now the tricky bit. I need to up the scale to suit the werewolf Size 7. Either I eat a -4 penalty with regular scale or I spend a reach and -2 with advanced scale. I desperately need dice here so I'm going to do the latter and whack the entire parking lot between it and me.

Fuck, it's primary spell factor is Potency but Potency doesn't DO anything with this spell. I have to eat another penalty for boosting duration. I can make it last for a few rounds if I lose more dice. But I will instead use another Reach and make it last a scene.

Ok so I have 2 dice, let's say up to 3 with one of my yantra.s

I have gone 2 Reach over my limit but I have a dedicated magical tool so -2.

I am rolling 3 dice and a Paradox chance die. If I get any successes, that werewolf is bobbing in the air for an hour and can't do anything about it. On the other hand this is a large area and a Sleeper will soon spot it so I don't actually have an hour. Either I've brought a gun with silver bullets at this point or it is time to make my escape.

>>47055980
I think you just deal damage equal to the spell's Potency, you don't add extra successes to the damage the spell does. So you do 4 lethal.

You only get one Yantra reflexively - it would take two turns to cast your example spell.

>>47056136
So what you're saying is that a chargen Mage caught completely unawares can totally negate a charging Werewolf in one action?

Phew! I started reading your pot and for a sec I was worried they'd made Mages less supreme. thank goodness for that.

>>47056136
>If I get any successes, that werewolf is bobbing in the air for an hour and can't do anything about it.

Just like playing D&D 3.5 with Reverse Gravity.

>>47056127
oh shit i missed that. sick!

>>47056136
So even in a worst case scenario, a new Mage can incapacitate a werewolf in one go with reasonable odds of success.

>>47056154
So.. Before Mastery you literally can not kill a grown man with a single spell? That's kind of lame.
I suppose Mage needed nerfing, but this bad?

>>47056184

Well, unless the Werewolf has 'Anything he can throw' or 'The upside down werewolf is now charging along the roof'. Then the mage might be in shit.

>>47056166
Oh yeah. So I'm rolling 2 dice. That's, what, ~50% chance of pulling it off? Not bad.

Still, I don't really have any way of hurting the thing with Forces, and I'm in serious trouble if Sleepers are around.

I'd still take a 50% chance of being able to escape freely, though, even with those risks.

>>47056205
direct damage spells are the least effective murder tools mages have at their disposal. plenty of other ways to kill someone.

Use a fate compelling spell to make someone crash their car after an all-nighter with no sleep.

>>47056154

...man, that makes 'Throwing Fireballs' really not an impressive option.

I guess it's better to just go Mind and have him eat his gun.

>>47056223

Yeah but for Forces, it kinda SHOULD be good at doing damage.

That's kinda Force's thing.

>>47056205
You can take dice penalties to increase your Potency.

The Arcana 4 adept needs to take -6 to do 7 lethal. If he is Arcana 4 Gnosis 4 and a yantra he is rolling 3 dice to click his fingers and instant take down a normal human being if any successes come up.

Rotes are where it gets very nasty.

>>47056231
Yeah, direct damage spells are pathetic. Mages can easily kill people, but they won't do it by hurling lightning.

>>47053184
To be fair mages are supposed to be broken. If you read any other splat every supernatural is godly afraid of them.

Also 5 dots in arcana means you're one of the most powerful mages in the world if the 1 to 5 dot scale still holds up.

The downside is you're always a squishy human that can be taken out by a speeding vehicle if they're not looking the right way.

>>47056248
>The downside is you're always a squishy human

This is the worst argument against Mage supremacy because magic means anything dangerous to humans stops being an issue

>>47056243

Well, that abates basically all my interest in mage.

Never really played it in the 1e but it feels kinda pathetic when you need to be 'The absolute grand master of force' to do as much as a human with a Molotov cocktail.

>>47056248
>that can be taken out by a speeding vehicle if they're not looking the right way.

There isn't much in WoD that can take the ramming rules and live.

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>>47056255
I'm just saying other supernaturals have innate regenerative abilities or some passive effects.

Fuck it though, mages are broken and I think that's what they're supposed to be so let wizards reign supreme.

>>47053334

God forbid mage players actually need to interact with the combat rules.

I mean, they could have honestly just have made 'I snuff out a life' high damage and it would have worked fine. Yeah, some things could survive it but you can't expect it to be as easy to snuff out the life of a fly as a werewolf.

>>47056258
You don't. You take roll penalties to increase the potency beyond your basic, letting you rain fire from the sky over an entire village

Yantras include throwing up your arms and shouting mystical gibberish or waving your magical staff around, and these give you bonuses / negate the above penalties.

>>47056011
>"This allows the mage to create Extreme Environments of nearly any kind up to Level 5"
>Holy hell! I thought they only went up to 4. What is 5? Instant death?

Have you ever been to Detroit?

>>47056317

Wouldn't the roll penalties make it much harder for the lightning bolt/fireball to actually hit the target?

>>47056349
If you spend reach they can't avoid it.

Am I the only person who's noticed that healing with Life was badly nerfed?

You now need Life 4 to heal lethal damage, when in 1e in was Life 2 or 3, for yourself and others respectively, Healing bashing, at best a minor inconvenience, requires Life 3.

>>47056349
The roll determines if you cast the spell or it fizzles. The spell, if cast, automatically hits the target.

Inless you intentionally choose to make it an aimed spell, where you roll to hit, but nobody would ever do this.

>>47056349

No. Either the mage spends a Reach to cast at sensory range and it auto-hits with no defense allowed, or the spell is "thrown" using Gnosis + Athletics/Firearms if it is successfully cast.

The penalties to increase Potency only apply to the roll to generate the effect, not the roll to throw it at the target.

>>47056372
>not spend Reach for Sensory targeting
>nobody would ever do this.

That's not true. The roll to hit if thrown isn't too difficult, and the Reach could sometime be far more productively spent on things like Advanced Scale for more targets or larger area of effect (or Size for very large targets like buildings, semi trucks and rampaging giant monsters).

>>47056361
>>47056372

Oh. That's...interesting.

Combat sounds like a clusterfuck in Mage with all 'Can't miss/instant-kill' available.

>>47056279
Unless you're a Changeling. Hope you like your aggravated damage and no innate regeneration.

>>47056435
Being Changeling is Suffering.

>>47056422
Which is why Mage society is founded on prison justice - if you use your instant death magic to kill someone, one of their friends will use their instand death magic on you in reprisal, and then one of your friends will etc. etc. So the best bet is to be more subtle and under-handed when dealing with your peers.

But it's also why Mages are supreme, since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way

>>47056449

>But it's also why Mages are supreme, since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way

Right. I think I'll pass on Mage then. It really doesn't sound like a very fun game for a group that likes a good mix of social, investigation and combat.

>>47056214
>>47056172
I think Unchained qualifies to break him free of that.

>>47056136
>Now the tricky bit. I need to up the scale to suit the werewolf Size 7. Either I eat a -4 penalty with regular scale or I spend a reach and -2 with advanced scale. I desperately need dice here so I'm going to do the latter and whack the entire parking lot between it and me.

See >>47056127
With Forces 3 you can move two steps up the scale chart for free, so Size 5, 6 & 7 targets all effectively cost the same (ie. no penalty)

>>47056449
>since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way

Eh, Blood Sorcery is about as powerful as mage magic, without the limiting factors of paradox, unbelief, limited number of spells that can be sustained, it can't really be countered, etc. Nothing stops you from animating armies of gargoyles, siphoning infinitesimal amounts of blood from huge swathes of the city so that you can feed yourself and all your homies for free in utter safety, breaking all the recording devices in town if there's a supernatural emergency threatening the Masquerade, etc. etc.

>>47056462
>Right. I think I'll pass on Mage then. It really doesn't sound like a very fun game for a group that likes a good mix of social, investigation and combat.

I thought that was literally what Mage was all about..

>>47056248
>If you read any other splat every supernatural is godly afraid of them.

Not really. The other splats don't give them any particular reverence, and the Pure outright hunt them down whenever possible.

The mages are unstoppable meme is almost entirely based off 1e's broken as hell extended casting system, and 1e Mage's own setting isn't even written with this assumption in mind.

>>47056279
Mages have innate regeneration too.

>>47056514
>The mages are unstoppable meme is almost entirely based off 1e's broken as hell extended casting system, and 1e Mage's own setting isn't even written with this assumption in mind.

Yet here we are in the 2e era and they're still better than everything else

>>47056500
Generally, the most important part of playing a Mage is casting 20 spells or so every time the situation changes, to ask the ST exacting questions on what's going on.

>>47056524
How does a Mage get Gauru-levels of regen?

No, I'm not trying to shoot you down, I'm honestly curious about how to go about it.

Life Making?

>The spell allows the mage to focus or disperse light, and even alter its wavelength on the spectrum. She could turn a torch into a blacklight, focus a lamp’s rays into a laser, split its lights into a rainbow spectrum as though viewed through a prism, or cause a refraction effect like looking upon something in shallow water.

So a chargen Obrimos can turn the sun into a deathray

>>47056476
No, the primary spell factor is Potency for Reverse Gravity, not SCale. Scale is never a primary spell factor as far as I can see.

So you get to move two steps up the POTENCY chart for free, except Potency on Reverse gravity doesn't do anything!

>>47056550
They don't need to, because they never need to get into combat in the first place.

>>47056550
>How does a Mage get Gauru-levels of regen?
Regen spells with high Durations.

>>47056524
>Yet here we are in the 2e era and they're still better than everything else

Hm? Is the book out yet?

Even in 1e, vamps did have an iron clad advantage of there being virtually no limits to how many people they can have dominated, while mage mind control is clunky, high level, and useful on a limited number of targets.

>>47056560
They fight other Mages, you know.

>>47056564
No, I mean, full health every turn, no matter the damage taken.

>>47056552
A death ray that can cause the Poor Light or Blinded Tilts.

Truly, I am shaking in my boots.

>>47056554
>except Potency on Reverse gravity doesn't do anything!

...that feels really wrong. Every spell should be modifiable with every option.

>>47056554
Where is Reverse Gravity?

>>47056585
You can change it with a Reach...

>>47056576
>Hm? Is the book out yet?

The book is leaked my boy

>>47056579
>No, I mean, full health every turn, no matter the damage taken.
Oh, there's no way to accomplish that. You can get some crazy regen, but nothing like all lethal every turn.

>>47056585
Well I guess it makes it harder to dispel or get dissonanced into oblivion, so I was wrong; it does SOMETHING, just not much.

>>47056554

The Primary factor of any spell can be changed by spending a Reach

>>47056363
>ou now need Life 4 to heal lethal damage, when in 1e in was Life 2 or 3, for yourself and others respectively, Healing bashing, at best a minor inconvenience, requires Life 3.

I guess the Thyrsus in the cabal is no longer the default cleric at character generation.

Everyone better choose their defenses very wisely and try not to get shanked.

>>47056592
>Where is Reverse Gravity?
He means Control Gravity, Forces 2. Of course, this won't necessarily stop a Gauru. It's not freezing him in midair, it's reversing the area's gravity- if there's a roof, he can run along it, if there are objects around he can leap off them to maneuver, etc., etc.

>>47056592
Forces 2.

>>47056600
Oh that makes it much more managable. You can only change it to duration as the only options are potency and duration for primary spell factor, but duration is much more relevant than potency for this. That saves a bit of Reach.

>>47056478
Blood Sorcery also isn't a thing in 2E Requiem. Just wanna point that out.

>>47056136
Would you have to use another spell to drain away his kinetic energy lest he keeps on going and takes a swipe at your head with his massive claws? Also wouldn't the mage himself be levitating too, putting him at possibly the same level as the Werewolf missile?

>>47056649

Scale can also be a primary factor, although it is very rare. For example, Forces 4 Electromagnetic Pulse has a primary factor of Scale (Area), p. 145.

>>47056683
>Blood Sorcery also isn't a thing in 2E Requiem.

It is. The 2e Requiem corebook says exactly how it works with the new system. Just wanna point that out.

>>47056703
That sounds like an error, then - the earlier spellcasting rules are clear.

>All spells have a primary spell factor of either Potency or Duration.

>>47056683
The Blood Sorcery book is specifically called out in Requiem 2e and it even erratas the amount of time between rolls.

>>47056683
Actually it is. It's mentioned in the 2e core book how to port it.

>>47056683

Blood Sorcery is definitely still in Vampire 2e, but it's not nearly as powerful or versatile as what was found in the expansions in the old 1e sourcebook.

>>47056696
>Would you have to use another spell to drain away his kinetic energy lest he keeps on going and takes a swipe at your head with his massive claws?
Yes, the wolf can just keep coming at you.

>Also wouldn't the mage himself be levitating too, putting him at possibly the same level as the Werewolf missile?
Yes, if a mage reverses gravity in a parking lot and he's in that parking lot his gravity is changing.

>>47056579
>They fight other mages, you know.

....how exactly does that point invalidate Mage Supremacy.

>>47056737
He said "Mages never fight".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LK-kxChNvg
Torque is definately an Ogre right? Can Ogres change shape and look over time?

>>47056749
Oracle Kith definitely.

>>47056746
I said Mages never fight with their insta-kill shit because that just leads to endless eye-for-an-eye reprisals.

Mages definitely fight though

>>47056786
So could an Obrimos with Spirit make laserbeams that hit things in the Shadow?

>>47056803
Yes.

In short, mage supremacy is still a thing, it's just no longer based on the Extended Ritual Casting. Good to know.

>>47056826
Yeah, they can now do it instantly so there's not even the vain hope of catching them off guard any more. They no longer need to be paranoid because they can just solve problems on the fly.

Thanks Dave.

>>47056584
Throw in Forces (Fraying) and now it's cooking you from the inside

>>47056826

Meh, mage supremacy is a thing of the past. Their thing is versatility now.

>>47053071
>you're a monster
>in your head anyway

The Otherkin element is enough to make me never want to play it.

>>47056817
Excellent. Just like playing a Moros with Time and hurling entropy bolts at people (You know how salt diffuses into water, speed that effect up with Death and Time and you can rip apart anything)

>>47056776
Oracle? What do they do

>>47053381
True Fey takes you away.
You just weren't destined for this world.

Can I use Create Energy (Forces 4) to creat "positive energy", fillling the room with good vibes?

>>47056903
>everyone begins to sing "don't worry, be happy"

>>47056903
Maybe using matter to turn the air into Marijuana smoke hotboxing the room?

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>causing an Earthquake is in the Practice of Unmaking

>>47056923
Yeah. That should be Making. Introducing large amounts of energy into the ground.

>>47056927
The spell uses Potency to determine Bashing damage, it's fucking Fraying

>>47056934
No. Just because it does Bashing, it doesn't mean it's Fraying.

>>47053381
You're misunderstanding how Practices interact with the Arcana. Unmaking Fate means deleting somebody's destiny, not deleting THEM through the means of destiny or something as such. It means if someone was destined for X, they will no longer be. If they were headed towards becoming the president, now something would happen and against all odds they'll find themselves losing the elections.

>>47056554
>Determine which Factor is the Primary Factor. This is either Potency or Duration, with the rule of thumb of “whichever Factor you immediately think of when you think of a more powerful version of the spell.”

Who would ever think about "Potency" as the first factor that comes to mind? This sounds very arbitrary.

>>47056945
>Unmaking spells are beyond inflicting direct damage with attacks; a successful Unmaking destroys the target altogether.

>Damage inflicted by a direct-attack Fraying spell is always bashing.

Perhaps, but it fits a hell of a lot better there than where it is.

>>47056958
A spell that can in a single cast ruin entire buildings fit on Forces 3?
This, this is what people mean when they talk about Mage Supremacy.

>>47056984
Taking out an entire building with one spell would be difficult. You'd have to Reach for Advanced Scale, and even then it's a -10 penalty if a subject involved is Size 30. I think that's a reasonable building size, if not even larger.

>>47056934

The bashing damage is secondary to the main purpose of Earthquake. The spell causes structural damage to entire buildings within an given area.

A spell that can lay waste to city blocks or entire neighborhoods is not part of the Practice of Fraying.

However, it is curious why the spell also doesn't concurrently cause the Earthquake Title along with the massive property damage. I guess it's possible that a Forces mage might be able to inflict just the tilt at levels below mastery.

Ha! Truthers as a Mystery Cult designed to distract people from actual political discussions!

>>47057011
>A spell that can lay waste to city blocks or entire neighborhoods is not part of the Practice of Fraying.

It's also not wiping it away instantly though. It's not like you are disintegrating the building.

>>47057007

In light of the wording of the spell, I'm not certain additional size factors would be necessary to target a specific building.

Further, Area of Effect would be the appropriate Scale, not Size. At the level you suggest, Earthquake would affect an entire neighborhood of multiple city blocks.

Also keep in mind that casting a master-level spell means the mage has a base dice pool of at least 10 before any Yantra bonuses since mastering an Arcanum at level 5 requires a Gnosis of 5. Such a mage definitely has enough of a dice pool to increase area of effect and duration to cause a great deal of devastation.

However, the mage will need a lot of mana to compensate for the Paradox from all the Reach.

>>47057059

Potency in structural damage *each turn*. Don't forget about Duration.

No normal building will be standing unless the mage so desires.

>>47057072

Yeah, which makes it more Fraying than Unmaking.

>>47057011
While the Bashing damage is a secondary effect, it still suits Forces 3 better than 5.

>>47057062
>Further, Area of Effect would be the appropriate Scale, not Size. At the level you suggest, Earthquake would affect an entire neighborhood of multiple city blocks.
Aren't all the scales tied together? That is, if something involved is Size 30, or a city block, you need to use that section.

You cause an earthquake by unmaking the forces that hold the movement of the ground in check. Earthquakes happen when areas of underground pressure pressed against each other overcome the resistance of that pressure; the spell presumably causes the same thing to happen by just removing said resistance.

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So, looking at Mage 2e, doesn't ANYONE think it's weird that time magic of all things lost ALL of it's reflexive spells? Perfect timing, a staple time spell, now takes a turn to cast, followed by a turn off twiddling your fingers with no fucking defense to get the bonus.

>>47057092
I can't help but think if you unmade those forces you would have something far more severe than an earthquake. If the resistance was just.. gone, completely, that seems less "shaking" and more "the earth shreds apart like wet paper, or a Sarlaac opening its mouth".

>>47057081

I believe you need to choose the Scale (or Scales) that is most appropriate.

If you are choosing to effect discrete multiple targets without everything else in the vicinity, the rules state you need to reach and take penalties for the number of targets and the size of the largest target. To simply lay waste to an entire area, innocents and collateral damage be damned, area of effect is the appropriate Scale.

>>47057079
>>47057081
>While the Bashing damage is a secondary effect, it still suits Forces 3 better than 5.
>Yeah, which makes it more Fraying than Unmaking.

The scope and amount of energy required to inflict structural damage to entire buildings is not mere Fraying or even Unraveling.

>>47055124
In a city, you're going to have maybe 5 masters, total. Maybe one of them is a second degree master. A fifth degree master is fucking unheard of.

>>47057114
That's prety much what happens in an earthquake. Often, the vibrations of the quake actually make the earth take on what is effectively a semi-liquid state.

>>47057107
Well you cast it beforehand and make the duration stick around. Having to take a turn to analyze is a bit odd, though.

>>47057121
>The scope and amount of energy required to inflict structural damage to entire buildings is not mere Fraying or even Unraveling.
The level of an Arcanum doesn't cover scope or energy amounts; those are reflections of Scale and Potency. The level covers what you can do with it. Fraying involves weakening things, such as the resistance of the earth beneath your feet.

>I believe you need to choose the Scale (or Scales) that is most appropriate.

Hmm, I thought they were all tied together. Like if I wanted to levitate everything in a parking lot, I'd use the parking lot.. but if there was something enormous in it, I'd have to go up to account for that.

>>47057092
Although I am not a geophysicist, I imagine you would need to remove those resistive forces over a very large volume to really get the earth moving. It also would not help if the earth you stand on was not already in tension.

>>47057124

Second degree masters and higher require Gnosis 6+. They are *rare,* and by the time a mage is a third level master or above, they're probably contemplating trying to breach the threshold and attain archmastery.

A fifth degree master would require an almost unique combination of unmitigated power combined with an ever decreasing and minimal ambition.

>>47057124
Why so? Per the 2e Gnosis chart all you need is G6 and you can master all 10 arcana, since the divide is now only "first" and "all the rest" rather than the longer table of yore

>>47057141

Dave needs to clarify and expound on Scale in his FAQ.

*sigh* Are the mechanical penalties from low Wisdom at least somewhat significant?

>>47057163
If they are all separate, having a Size requirement at all seems odd, since I'll always target the smallest area of effect possible that just so happens to be on whatever my target is.

I'm not electrocuting the giant! I'm electrocuting a room-sized area the giant happens to be in.

>>47057171
Low Wisdom is great, means Paradox Conditions lapse fastwr

>>47057158

Gnosis 6 is still pretty damn impressive, and the amount of Experience and time needed to achieve fifth degree mastery is immense, particularly if setting verisimilitude is maintained and the character has commiserate levels of stats, skills, merits and other Arcana.

Most mages capable of achieving fifth degree mastery have already achieved archmastery or have been wiped from existence in the attempt.

>>47057171
Low Wisdom makes it very hard to contain a Paradox and makes the results of any Paradox last much, much longer - except for Paradox Conditions, where low Wisdom means you have very, very little time to resolve the Condition before it infects your Pattern with the Abyss. Sadly it is fairly easy (albeit painful) to scour the Paradox out of your Pattern afterwards.

>>47057107
The fact that time doesn't have reflexive magic is a little baffling, to be honest. Didn't almost all of their buffs have the option to be reflexive if your arcana was one higher?

>>47057180

See Mage 2e, p. 113,

"Scale

The scale of a spell is how large the spell is. Mages must decide when casting whether they are targeting specific subjects *or* a blanket area of effect. Aimed spells (see below) must use area of effect, centered on wherever the mage aims.

If the mage uses Number of Subjects for Scale, the factor determines how many subjects may be affected and the Size of the largest subject. Once decided, a mage can affect fewer subjects than the scale of her spell permits.

If using Area of Effect for Scale, the factor instead determines how large the area covered by the spell is, applying the spell effect to anyone or anything within. A mage cannot single out specific subjects in the declared space unless she uses the spell Warding Gesture."

>>47057216
Right, I read that. I'm not singling out a specific subject, though; I'm targeting everything within this room-sized area! The area simply covers the mass of the giant only.

>>47057158
You also need a master of each of your non primary arcana to teach you the mastery. Also, it is a FUCKTON of beats.

>>47057155
I was saying that, want I?

>>47054834
Yes, that why you rarely use mana as a spell cost any more.
Dave did say the thing your going to spend mana most on is removing paradox die.

>>47055027
I think making them daeva would actually be pretty fitting. After all Daeva are about passion.

>>47055284
Nope vampires are pretty hard to kill for mortals. Vamps downgrade the damage they take to bashing, can have celarity to give defense against firearms, an can heal more damage a turn then either mages or werewolves at base. With healing 2 bashing per vitae as a reflexive action.

>>47057277
>Nope vampires are pretty hard to kill for mortals.
That's why you use fire. Unlike werewolves' bane, fire is easily accessible and it's culturally well-known that vampires dislike fire.

Unlike mages and werewolves, vampires are also comatose during periods of high mortal activity, and can be incapacitated with one attack.

>>47057238

Absolutely. I was agreeing with you and explaining why.

>>47057277
Vamps are still far and away the weakest of the 2E splats so far. Now that might change once Changeling or A Thousand Years of Night is released, but right now, for all the buffs 2E gave them, they are still the redheaded step-children of the nWoD.

>>47057222

Sometimes you only want to target specific beings or objects, not an entire area.

For instance, while fighting a giant worm-like cryptid in the subway, you could specifically target the beast and protect innocent commuters or let loose with an entire area of effect which would probably require fewer casting penalties. Can you afford the Wisdom loss?

>>47057357
>Sometimes you only want to target specific beings or objects, not an entire area.
That's why you specifically target an area that includes your enemy but does not include undesired targets! If I'm fighting a giant worm-like cryptid, I'm going to unleash my magic in a small, room-sized area.. and that room happens to be well above the heads of all the commuters, right at the worm's.

>>47057155
I'm pretty sure the world is lousy with 5+ Gnosis Mages because of some things Dave said about Mage demographics.

>>47057369

You still need to affect the entire target with the spell, and sometimes that's not really possible with area of effect without also targeting friendlies or causing problematic collateral damage.

>>47057288
Fire isn't a particularly good weapon. For one thing, you can't kill them in one round -- period, while the reverse is not true.

>>47057353
They gained promethean/sin eater level of durability, and have action length perfect defenses. Assuming we're talking about them as far as the setting goes and not as far as PCs are concerned, and depending on your opinion, strigoi are either things that create vampires, can possess vampires, or are vampires, and they themselves are incredibly powerful; a strigos in a vampire body is off the hook.

Not to mention, don't overlook the absolutely brutal levels of nerfing mages got, while vampires only got stronger.

>>47057439

Gnosis 6+ certainly exist, but there by no means commonplace. A high Gnosis is also no guarantee the mage is even a master of one or two Arcana, no less having achieved mastery over *five* Arcana.

>>47057459
I'm not sure that's true, re: the entire target. If I'm spreading fire through an area, I don't have to engulf someone's entire body to hurt them; just their head would be plenty.

>>47057464
Fire is a great weapon. It won't one shot them, no, but it's your best bet, and it's better than your odds against a wolf or mage.

The other day I had an idea for a new chronicle. I was thinking of vampires working in a sort of One Thousand and One Nights-like setting. Are there any resources for World of Darkness in that theme?

>>47057485

Incendiary attacks also have the nice secondary effect of often setting people and objects on fire and continuing to inflict damage after the initial attack.

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>>47057439
Only 15% of the mages in an area have 6+ gnosis.

I miss the dashing Mastigos dude in 1e

>>47057485

Which Scale factor to use for a spell and how much is actually required is definitely something Dave needs to clarify.

He'll hopefully chime in here soon.

>>47057516
And one of the changes in second ed was to bring the Gnosis requirement for Legacies down by one and give lots of alternate things to spend Arcane XP on rather than just Gnosis, dragging it back down to somewhere close to the other games' power stat expectations.

Your typical elder Mage still has a higher Gnosis than an elder vampire has Blood Potency, as he's still got Arcane Beats going for him, but it'll be *less* high in 2e than 1e.

>>47057516

Dave's 1e demographics chart doesn't necessarily reflect 2e realities, particularly since the Gnosis requirements for mastery and to teach legacy attainments have changed in the new book.

Freckled red head Obrimos?

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>>47057549
The fact that it's lower now proves my point more, actually? I'm in the "not that many high gnosis mages" party.

>>47056524
>Yet here we are in the 2e era and they're still better than everything else
They clearly aren't.

>>47057541
What's a good percentage of a city's population to use when determining how many people are Mages?
I'm setting stuff up for a game in Los Angeles, and I figure having 104 Mages is too few, but going with .01% of the LA population would be ~1870, which is way too many for me to bother figuring out information for all of them on a spreadsheet

>>47057464
Strix. They are called Strix, not Strigoi. Methinks you've been watching too much The Strain. Also, fuck the Strix. They're shitty, one-dimensional, body-snatching, sadistic sociopaths, whose motivations across the line is "for the evulz lol", and their mechanics make them singularly unfun for vampire players to deal with. Fuck them and the chapter they took up Requiem 2E.

>>47057652
>whose motivations across the line is "for the evulz lol",
but that's incorrect

>>47057464
Vamps are weaker because their defensive options are, across the board, shittier. They have an easily exploited Bane, their defensive abilities are outright weaker, and have absolutely pitiful durations compared to other splats, plus all of them cost Vitae *per turn* in contrast to the others, which are generally permanent/last at least a scene.

>>47057729
>plus all of them cost Vitae *per turn* in contrast to the others
Jesus dude how wrong can you be?
Celerity grants a passive bonus to defense based on dots (that also gives them defense against firearms for mages thrown spells) and resilience grants passive bonus to health AND lowers resilience dots worth of agg damage to lethal, plus they can further soak fire or regular damage with ease

add to that the fact that vamprie energy is the easiest energy to get and can even be regained in combat

>>47057525
Are talking about Arctos the liberal arts nerd who literally wears a suit and fights with a sword, and who awokened to his Mage powers when he asked a demon to help him cheat on a test?

Dashing?

>>47057785
>add to that the fact that vamprie energy is the easiest energy to get and can even be regained in combat
Essence for wolves can also be regained in combat as easily as Vitae- it's also a good combat tactic since devouring something for Essence does agg, last I checked.

That said, Vampire defense vs Firearms sucks. The celerity benefit is nice but insufficient.

>>47057827
>. The celerity benefit is nice but insufficient.
It gives you a passive 1-5 bonus to Defense.
While everyone else is reliant on two attributes and a skill, they have an extra ability for it.

>>47054428
Unless the armor is designed to resist supernatural damage, yes.

>>47057827
>Essence for wolves can also be regained in combat as easily as Vitae- it's also a good combat tactic since devouring something for Essence does agg, last I checked.
The things that grant you essence for attacking (humans/wolves/werewolves) is more limited than things that give you blood, especially since vamps have a merit to include shit like ghosts and spirits

>>47057652
>Methinks you've been watching too much The Strain.

Never seen it.

Where is the info for Quiesence in the 2e book?
A friend and I are trying to decide which would work better for destroying a building, Forces or Matter, and I realized that summoning a stick of dynamite with Matter might be subject to Quiesence, but I can't find it in the book anywhere

>>47057937
Page 298

>>47057485
>and it's better than your odds against a wolf or mage.

As werewolves can be easily killed in one round by their weakness (ie. 2-3 rifle shots with silver bullets, and that's it), and trying to kill a vampire with fire means you're going to be there for 3-4 rounds, this isn't really the best bet.

As far as combat plans go, one which subjects you to, at a minimum, three rounds of abuse from the enemy has got to be among the worst.

>>47057541
>Your typical elder Mage still has a higher Gnosis than an elder vampire has Blood Potency,

I wouldn't be surprised if that's very different in 2e, since elders are no longer sleepy amnesiacs.

>>47057857
Unless you pick up a Devotion, which again costs Vitae per turn, vamps *only* get celerity as defense against firearms. Two or three mortal hunters with shotguns are still easily gonna fill the vamps health track and put him into damage overflow.

>>47058007
>As werewolves can be easily killed in one round by their weakness (ie. 2-3 rifle shots with silver bullets, and that's it)
werewolves get full defense against firearms in most forms, and being hit once by silver automatically pushes you into one of them

>>47058007
Werewolves get their full defense against firearms in every form but hishu, though.

>>47057504
Please respond..

>>47058007
>As werewolves can be easily killed in one round by their weakness (ie. 2-3 rifle shots with silver bullets, and that's it)
Werewolves will avoid the shots.

>>47058028
Elders still take frequent naps to avoid having to murder large numbers of other vampires, since the alternative is being bloodbound.

>>47058051
>>47058060

>werewolves get full defense against firearms in most forms

2 rifle hits with silver bullets, 1 success each = 12 aggravated damage.

They're just not helpless.

>>47058031

Hoping for numerical superiority against unlimited flunkies: the splat, who also have a power of "even more unlimited flunkies, who don't necessarily even have any knowledge or memory of me that my enemies could use against me" is fairly optimistic, especially compared to, say, hunters, for whom each new inclusion is a security risk.

>>47058093

They're not likely to have any means to dodge the first one, which may kill them, and a defense score doesn't mean they're guaranteed bullet proof, it only means that its not a one sided slaughter.

>>47058031
>Unless you pick up a Devotion, which again costs Vitae per turn, vamps *only* get celerity as defense against firearms
No, it acts as a passive bonus to Defense
Add the vampire’s dots in Celerity to her Defense,
or to her Dodge roll when defending actively. If a Firearms attack
denies her normal Defense, the attacker still takes a penalty on
his attack equal to the vampire’s dots in Celerity.

>>47058112
The math was already done with this, peoplewith silver bullets are woefully outmatched and have to be really lucky to hit a werewolf

>>47058102
Setting your entire power base on fire, grossly weakening yourself, and giving your enemies several decades to kill you seems like a fairly hefty price to avoid cozying up to a qt3.14.

>>47058178
>They're not likely to have any means to dodge the first one, which may kill them
>implying you're going to surprise a werewolf

>>47058178
As you push a werewolf into death rage with your silver bullet, it gains 4 health (at least)

>>47055853
Well I have learned that my ideas are painfully uninteresting.

>>47058185
Its not any harder than engaging in melee, with the advantage of being able to put a nearly limitless number of obstacles and distance between you, and as far as I know WoD has never had any serious penalty for zooming about between shots like you're Doomguy.

Its certainly not as rough as, say, the plight of your average NPC attempting to kick a cat hard, and demons and werewolves have to put up with the same level of bullshit when fighting angels and spirits.

So. I've been thinking of an NPC Mage/Mystery. I'd like to hear your input on this.

Three persons Awaken. Except they are the same person. The end result is a Mage, with the memories of three persons, their full lives up until the point of Awakening.
All three of them have friends and family who know them. They all recognize the person as their friend, but it's three isolated social circles, with zero overbleed.

Is this a decent Mystery to keep the PC's confused and interested for a while?

>>47058211
If you put a werewolf into death rage, you've virtually already won.
The +4 health also accounts for a total of maybe saving it from one additional hit.

>>47058255
>, with the advantage of being able to put a nearly limitless number of obstacles and distance between you,
It's like you don't know how werewolf works at all
>full defense against firearms
>stealth mode
>make your bullets miss
>destroy your gun from range with a word
>just huff and puff and blow you away

>>47058276
The first shot, if it hits, will alert the Werewolf to your presence
The second shot will only matter if the Werewolf is standing perfectly still or charging directly at you, neither of which are things a Werewolf will do
By the third shot, the Werewolf is either gone, or clawing your throat out

Don't white room the combat. No Werewolf is just going to stand there and let you take shots at them, they're going to take cover and try to stop you.

>>47058276
>If you put a werewolf into death rage, you've virtually already won.
Now it has full defense, half a dozen free gifts and is going to definitely kill you.