Did World of warcraft ruined classic fantasy?

>>46972109
No.

What's "classic fantasy?"

>>46972109
No, autistic fantasy fans did.

>>46972150
not OP but probably Tolkien Fantasy

>>46972369
were fans the ones who made the panda shit.

>>46972109
No, D&D did. Especially with the way it treats magic.

No, the fantasy novel glut of the 80s and 90s did.

>>46972109
Classical Fantasy is not ruined though

>how dare people innovate

>>46972109

It's more a symptom of genericization in fantasy rather than the main cause, but it did help further popularize already overused tropes.

Fantasy was already getting too generic by the 90s. These days I don't even bother to look past the front cover of any new setting that's high fantasy with orcs, dwarves and elves. It's all the same shit.

>b-b-b-b-b-but muh polynesian elves with their unique reproductive cycle

I don't care. It won't be enough to save it.

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It atleast ruined fantasy art.

>>46972378
Nobody has created a fantasy setting resembling Tolkien's since Tolkien

>>46972109
Depending on your definition of "ruining" classic fantasy it's either still around and kicking, just less popular than it used to be, or Tolkein double ruined it first and WoW just shat on it's corpse a little (so did a zillion other popular things).

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How does 'classic fantasy' get ruined?
Its an idea, and whatever your idea of classic fantasy is, Im sure you can find material that fits the bill. This thread is near down syndrome level stupid. You arent very succesful at life are you op? I imagine you have got to be exceptionally stupid to think 'classic fantasy is ruined'.

OP - a characteristic shared by stupid people is being in denial or unaware they are stupid. Or absolute certainty that they are not stupid. If you have either of these symptoms, I have bad news for you.

>>46972504
Holy fuck that shit makes me wanna pull my hair out

Like daaamn nigga, you so thirsty for fucking elves you'll jam them into any setting in a crappy shallow parody of an IRL culture?

Fuck off

>>46972639

I think classical fantasy is an octopus made of cheese who struggles eternally against the corrupt bureaucrats down at Hank's Ole Fishin' Hole.

>>46972418
Probably this. So many bad habits and overused tropes come from D&D. The need fro elves and dwarves in every setting, overt spellcasting all over the place. Priests and sorcerers have to be different for some reason. The assumption that dragons need four legs and "wyvrins" have two and other Monster Manual style shit.

Fuck, I like D&D. I especially like OD&D since it presents itself more as it's own setting instead of something generic. But so many shitty traditions sprang from it. If only the creators could have been a bit more clear in the books about stuff like setting and tweaks to the classes and magic we might not have a some of these problems.

>>46972109
You're giving WoW waaay too much credit.

Warcraft lore has as much to do with classic fantasy as the Lion King has to do with Macbeth. A copy of a copy marketed to a completely different audience. There are some parallels but rest assured they are not the same thing, nor do they really try to be.

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>>46972416
MoP was a pretty good expansion desu. after all the "muh pandas" comments there really isn't anything wrong with it.

>>46972109
Classic fantasy isn't ruined at all, because it still exists. To this day there is no fantasy story that is manlier than Conan the Barbarian.

Heavy Metal is a close second.

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>>46972514
surely you jest

>>46972797
>dragons need four legs and "wyvrins"
It is so sickeningly adorable that there are so many people that think D&D invented the distinction between wyverns having two legs two wings and the general depiction of dragons.

I am not saying the definition was uniform throughout all of Europe hundreds of years ago because there was no uniform definition everyone used, but to say D&D is responsible for the current concept (and resent them for it lol) is like a child mad at the grocery store for the existence of veggies.

>>46972797
>Priests and sorcerers have to be different for some reason
nigga what? did you mean to write wizards and sorcerers?

>>46973007
Your taste really depresses me. The last segment of Heavy Metal was the worst, and MoP had a lot more wrong with it then just focusing on boring pretentious quasi-Chinese pandafolk. It had some parts it executed well, but the overall story was basically an aside, with little to do with the larger forces being built up. The Mogu were a joke and had to be retconned into importance in a book. "The villain is war and general mean-ness!" Yeah, okay.

Speaking of that, the xpac seemed to be designed around the idea of making half the player base "feel cool" again because Cata left them salty. The whole thing was an insult. I'm lucky to come out of it with the few fond memories I did.

>>46973055
>underestimating the influence of DnD on ttrpg culture

Kid pls. Adults talking.

>>46973193
Nah, I think he ment what he said, think back to Conan and junk where the evil sorcerer would be High Priest of Set or whatever, there wasn't always such a clear arcane/divine division with magic users

>>46973193
Why would you assume he meant anything but what he wrote?

The assumption that magic comes in "arcane" and "divine" flavours is a very D&D trope. It's creatively limiting to get stuck on things like that.

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>>46973281
the villain was an old god that made Garrosh go full Hitler, it was actually one of the darkest story lines they've put out, Theramore got nuked man.

>>46972109
No, D&D did that.

>>46973353
agree'd but things change, and thats not to say you still can't get a priest that can shoot lightning bolts and other stuff. I don't think DnD forced a change on anything, I think people just prefer that division.

>>46973378
>It's creatively limiting to get stuck on things like that.
I disagree entirely, creativity can come in many different forms, putting limits on anything is limiting. to say a priest and a wizard aren't two different things is limiting. of course I have no issue with them being the same dude.

>>46973336
Why stop there? Lets blame D&D for the idea of slimes. Or half blood races. Come on anon, you're not this dumb, the point is that they got all this from somewhere, and even if D&D had never existed you'd have been introduced to the difference between this type of flying lizard and that sooner or later. Have you ever thought that your desired definition is just shit, and not enough people share your shit opinion for it to matter?

>>46973590
Well we know virtually everything about dungeons and goopy/fungal denizens did not come from D&D.

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>>46973387
>the villain was an old god
The GHOST of an old God.

We only fought its residual affect on the environment after having been defeated there by the Titans; not Y'shaarj himself. Y'shaarj is essentially dead.

So what we actually fought was a Care Bears villain that made mad people madder and sad people sadder, which is why the chill philosophical pandafolk were able to keep a lid on it because they were all so drunk and knew how to enjoy life better than everyone else.

I'm not saying we had to fight Y'shaarj as an end boss, mind, but what we got instead felt anticlimactic and was a significant step down from the level of antagonist we'd faced previously.

Which leads me to my next point: Garrosh was a JOKE. He was always a joke. He was introduced crying and died crying, and in between he got his ass beat by Cairne, got his ass beat by Varian, got overshadowed as a threat by Jaina (who actually almost did something) and was a mess of a character that part of the time the writers had no idea what to do with. So they made him mustache twirlingly evil, then pitiful again, and got rid of him.

>>46972594
Glorantha?

Only thing it ruined was orcs. Then everyone wanted them to be green noble savages.

>>46973378
well they aren't exclusive in D&D.

That being said, I'm not so sure. The cleric is a pure D&Dism, but arcane magic was definitely not something that originated in D&D, and was definitely something from, at the latest, stuff from D&D's inspirational reading list.

HPL, Tolkien, and Moorcock all had blowshituppicus mages.

>>46973814
Proud tribal warrior orcs were already set to be the witty subversion that becomes the norm, a la kobolds actually being super powerful geniuses that are better than you.

>>46973771
>step down from the level of antagonist we'd faced previously
You mean the boss fight where we had to sway side to side on his back? Let's be real here, anon. The only decent threats in the game that had any sort of climax to their defeat was Arthas and Illidan. Nearly everything after was practically treated as a second-thought. Why do you think we've had an expansion dedicated to us fighting bosses we've already fought before? Why do you think we're having ANOTHER expansion with threats we've already faced before? At least MoP knew when and when not to take itself too seriously.

>>46973867
>a la kobolds actually being super powerful geniuses
Shallow attempts to subvert convention really fucking bother me for some reason.

>>46973007
>MoP was a pretty good expansion desu. after all the "muh pandas" comments there really isn't anything wrong with it.
>Garrosh going full on Chaotic Evil

>>46973902
How do you even survive /tg/?

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>>46973771
man you need to expand your imagination a little bit. If blizzard had rated WoW M like they want to it would have been 1000 times worse than that. They have to make the game appealing to kids after all.

Garrosh went full reich, in an M rated game we're talking blood elves hanging from the gates of Orgrimmar, the SS hordestappo executing people in the streets that didn't swear loyalty to him, Vol'jin leading a bloody rebellion against his tyranny, and the alliance landing on the shores of Durotar like D-Day. even when they got to pandaria and first discovered the Sha there were bodies piled up everywhere you went! they made the monkeys and the fish people go to war with each other, in that one cutscene hundreds died. MoP was basically Vietnam + WW2 in the same expansion. you do realize that Theramore no longer exists? think of how many women and children died in that bomb. I know in game theres like 10 houses tops but in lore there would have been thousands of people living there.

WoW is basically a brutal world thats presented in a way that young kids can enjoy playing it. if you try to think of how many innocent people have been killed over all the years the numbers gotta be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

your pic made me chuckle tho.

>>46973912
>retarded orc gets told his daddu was a hero
>wins some battles
>thinks he is king of the world
>gets his shit slapped

>>46973912
I wouldn't say he went chaotic evil, he went Hitler man. Proud orc warrior seeing the horde get filled with elves and making peace treaties with the alliance. Letting some undead bitch raise the dead like its no big deal, ignoring the fact that she clearly has a hidden agenda. To top that all off your father was Grom motherfucking Hellscream? what Garrosh did made perfect sense.

>>46973954
There isn't any reason to think Theramore was particularly populated in the lore either.

>>46973912
He wound up doing the Pandas a favor and curbed Alliance aggression against Kalimdor.

The thing about Theramore that gets me is, the only, THE ONLY moral highground the Alliance has is that its reacting to beings that are, literally, green extraterrestrials that invaded their homeland, and then they start expanding in... the homeland of one of the few members of the Horde that is native to Azeroth and certainly the only that is totally inoffensive.

>edited because HERP I DERPED

>>46973999
Trolls, blood elves and Tauren are all native to Azeroth. but now that you mention it, where the hell did goblins come from again?

>>46973912
Name one thing Garrosh did wrong.

>>46974043
it must have been at least a small city, Jaina led everyone there to flee the eastern kingdoms.

For arguments sake I would classify a small city/large town in WoW to have a population of at least a few thousand. Around the same size as Lake Town in the hobbit, not the movie, the book.

>>46974075
>one of the few members of the Horde that is native to Azeroth and certainly the only that is totally inoffensive.

You were right the first time, in a sense. Aggression towards trolls can be excusable since the Darkspear are merely descended from the Gurubashi who are definitely bad guys, and they had a large conflict with the Kul Tiras fleet during the founding of Durotar (though that was largely the Kul Tiras being assholes and attacking the Echo Isles.)

The Forsaken were exploding their northern front with Mega AIDS, and the Sin'dorei captured and raped a naaru to death which would be like Muslims capturing the next coming of Jesus and beheading him on camera. The goblins were situated in Orgrimmar and Azshara and were responsible for making an atom bomb that exploded a night elf city.

The tauren are pretty much the only people who didn't do anything mean the Alliance, and NEVER did anything mean to Theramore.

>>46974078
Yeah you're right.

>>46974151
All I'm going to say is that besides NPC count and number of houses there are other reasons to think the population was small.

>>46972369
>>46972418
>>46972459
This

>>46974083
everything. He gets handed armies out of the writer's asses.
The horde didn't even have a port and suddenly had navies capable of blockading theramore and destroying alliance navies outright?

>>46974204
it was a full fledged nation in it's own right though. Like post second war stormwind tier.

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>>46972514
There's some picture out there celebrating the anniversary of Everquest by recreating an old piece of art in a newer style.

And man, the difference just hurts.

>>46972109
It gave us space goats, which are great for porn. That's good.

It showed MMOs as a viable investment for a gaming house, which gave rise to a stream of a billion shitty WoW clones and innovation in MMOs is nearly non-existent and will remain so until WoW 1.0 is dead. That's bad.

It's got a movie coming out directed by Sam Raimi. He got paid like a motherfucker, and the movie will likely be trash. Call that a push.

Uhhh. . . what am I missing? Help me out here.

>>46973891
I was referring to the scale of the villains we'd faced in terms of plot relevance, not fight mechanics. And honestly, as shitty as a fight as Spine and Madness was, it was significantly more challenging in terms of coordination and fight mechanics than Purple Garrosh.

And it depresses me to say that anything in DS was "challenging."

Pre-nerf Spine though? I tanked that, and shit did in fact get real.

But yeah, the point I was making was not in regards to gameplay mechanics. Garrosh the character was a doormat that legit won two fights: Grumpy Pandamonk in a cinematic and a weakened Thrall. And he got his ass beat by everyone else. I couldn't see him as a real threat.

And Illidan wasn't a climax technically. That's why Blizzard tossed in KJ, because Illidan didn't strike them as being "HOLY SHIT" enough to carry a Legion expansion by himself as the BBEG. And they were right.

While Deathwing's on screen presence was lacking, he was no afterthought. Even in game. Compare the Cataclysm to anything Garrosh did. Deathwing felt like a threat on a planetary scale, Garrosh was a rabid dog that needed to be taken out back and shot.

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>>46973912
The faction war is by far the worst thing in WoW. Upgrading it to Total War in a MMO where status quo is God was pants on head retarded. But what else do you expect with the f-team writing lore?

>>46974083
Being a little bitch with daddy issues. Being reliant of super weapons, writer's fiat, and being a walking, talking, no true scotsman trope.

He was a thug who had no business in a leadership position. I doubt he'd even make it as far as the Orcish equivalent of a Sergent.

>>46974341
Why exactly are 'female' blue tieflings almost always depicted with dicks? Is this some obscure reference?

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>>46974379
Futafags would pay for commissioned futa-draenei art

>>46974277
>The horde didn't even have a port and suddenly had navies capable of blockading theramore and destroying alliance navies outright?

In one of the novels that came out around Cataclysm, it was explained that the Horde acquired their fleet partially from the Steamwheedle Cartel and partially from putting the Bilgewater goblins to work, they're the setting's premiere race for industrial production so if Theramore could rebuild the Kul Tiras fleet after losing it a few years prior, I don't see why the Horde couldn't assemble a fleet in less time with the race that's notably better at it, especially since they were bordering Ashenvale and had a big logging operation whereas Theramore is in the middle of a swamp that's probably not as ripe for logging.

I'd also like the point out that Garrosh having an army is no more surprising than Varian having one, especially when you consider during the events of the book Stormrage, the entire planet fell into a nightmare and were being murdered by shadow satyrs. Stormwind was so overwhelmed by the attack that Varian's keep was under siege.

>>46974420
The surprising part is how he suddenly comes up with one at the drop of a hat big enough to blockade an entire continent from a known super power.

>>46974377
>Being a little bitch with daddy issues
Explain the daddy issues. The only problem he had was shame for his father's actions which were based on a misunderstanding. He didn't cry to papa's ghost while dying (Arthas) or try to strangle his dad to death (Saurfang) or run away because DAD DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ME (Anduin) or WAAAH DAD IS DEAD I'M GOING TO DO NOTHING ABOUT IT (Baine.)
>Being reliant of super weapons
But he won enormous victories with military prowess alone, in fact none of his super weapon plots actually worked so in a way he didn't rely on them at all, he was just exploring them because that's what everyone in Azeroth does.
>writer's fiat
These are random words that mean nothing but I'd like to point out that Garrosh has been treated more harshly by the writers than any other character.
and being a walking, talking, no true scotsman trope.
>He was a thug who had no business in a leadership position.
Yeah, he'd agree, he even told Thrall he didn't want to be warchief and begged him to consider someone else.
>I doubt he'd even make it as far as the Orcish equivalent of a Sergent.
His victories in Northrend won him the rank of Warlord. That's probably higher than you've gotten in RBGs, Private Sniffer.

>>46974379
It's just futafags being futafags.

>>46973954
>the SS hordestappo executing people in the streets that didn't swear loyalty to him
That actually happened. Literally, if you walked around Orgrimmar during the SoO patch, a troll would run out and shout something like "Garrosh is a tyrant!" and the Kor'kron would shoot him dead in the street.

When you passed by the square, the Kor'kron sic Theramore survivors on you that have to fight because, and I quote, "They took my children!"

I kind of made it a point to kill them. Now that's what I call edgy.jpg

Like I said, there are SOME good memories I got from MoP, but the overall package just left me feeling let down.

Honestly I just wish the Alliance were a little more grey like the Imperium. MoP, perhaps more than any other expansion, emphasized that such is not the case.

...Jaina's self righteous tantrum notwithstanding.

Anywho I see your point. I'm not saying WoW couldn't be more appealing to me under different circumstances, I just wasn't very happy with what I got. That said, a LOT of people LOVED MoP, so I consider it a success in that so many people really enjoyed it.

>>46974497
>big enough to blockade an entire continent from a known super power.

But all he had to do was block off Theramore. The rest of the continent was fucked up by the Cataclysm, the Alliance fleet couldn't exactly drop off in Durotar and move south due to the big flaming ravine caused by Deathwing, and they couldn't drop off in Tanaris and move north because the Thousand Needles was flooded and too narrow to field an army. Plus the rest of Theramore was surrounded by a swamp filled with ogres, crocolisks, and dragons, the only way to get an army to Theramore without mooring there was via the highway they built, which was controlled by the Horde because it led directly to a Horde capital.

Blockading Theramore would've been easy. It was an entire ocean away from most of the "super power," and right on the door step of the blockading force.

A small fleet could've kept ships out of Theramore and the Alliance navy wouldn't have been able to use their numbers against them because it wasn't an open sea battle, they could've bought plenty of time for the siege. It sounds like you're just an Alliance fanboy mad about your faction losing something.

>>46974555
The Alliance does questionable things at times but it would have to get really REALLY fucked up to sink to the lows the Imperium does as a matter of course.

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People talking about WoW lore make it sound so interesting. Makes me wish I had gotten into it.

>>46974043
Theramore was fairly populous, I believe. Not that it matters. If you use your town or church or orphanage for puppies as a major military installation supplying troops and material to an invasion force, why get mad when it gets bombed? Why?

Theramore was supplying Northwatch which was actively blockading ships traveling to Ratchet and mounting a ground invasion of Durotar.

Theramore was in the process of building a huge paved road through Dustwallow to move Siege Engines into the Southern Barrens. It was also the origin point of all the Alliance forces there who were attempting to push to Thunder Bluff.

And you're going to throw a fucking hissy fit because it got bombed? Fucking REALLY?

Seriously, I fucking hate what they did with Jaina. And I hate even more how whenever Theramore is brought up in-universe it's treated like a pointless tragedy that was apparently perpetrated by assholes that just love killing innocent people that dindu nuffin.

>>46974607
Like Dragonlance, which WC3 appears to be partially inspired by, it sounds interesting, but I'm more inclined to read cliffnotes.

>>46974602
>The Alliance does questionable things at times
The sad part is, when the Alliance does something questionable it tends to fall into one of two categories:

1) Events that you see while leveling as Horde that are never mentioned again.

2) A justified reaction to some even worse slight against them.

Before you start bringing up things that happened in the Warcraft RTS games, keep in mind that I'm only speaking in terms of the contemporary "Alliance of Stormwind," not the old "Alliance of Lordaeron" which featured the likes of Garithos, Arthas and Blackmore.

>>46974655
The problem with theramore is that the horde never got it's payback for that. They don't lose anything in the game or in lore. Jaina should have drowned orgrimmar

>>46974655
Actually I think Jaina's reaction was absolutely right. the only reason she even lived is because shes one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth.

everyone she'd been living with for the last 20 years was dead, basically guinea pigs for an expirimental weapon. how do you think the survivors of hiroshima and nagasaki felt? im sure they wanted every american wiped off the face of the earth.

they should have seen it coming though. having a military base of operations in horde territory while knowing that garrosh was a loose cannon was just stupid of the alliance.

>>46974602
>>46974668
its honestly a fantastic story with great characters. its a bit late to get into the games now but it would still be worth it if you like what you see. You can always just read the lore.

>>46974776
Oh and technically Daelin Proudmoore. A little nod to when Jaina didn't make me sick. Killing your own dad because justice and compassion is something I can get behind.

>>46974790
it never was horde territory. It was always alliance territory that was neutral for ingame reasons.

I absolutely hate the fact that theramore got destroyed. Yes it was justifiable, but it would have been much better for the horde to actually have a port long term instead of blowing it up.

Blizzard blew up theramore to show that
>lol war isn't fair
and when it came to the horde's doorstep, the alliance turns lawful stupid.

>>46974776
I don't think it gets any more questionable then what Arthas did.

>elvish genocide
>wiped out the northern kingdoms
>created the forsaken
>everything bad that Sylvanas does is essentially his fault

the dwarves are to blame for Ragnaros and molten core existing. the elves are to blame for Sargeras (you could argue he would have tried to take over the world anyways).

thats what I love about WoW, absolutely no ones hands are clean.

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>>46974501
>Explain the daddy issues.

He spent a lot of effort and time living up to his dad, and dedicating his entire invasion of Ashenvale to proving himself to grom's ghost. He wanted to prove something instead of doing his own thing and being his own orc.

>won enormous victories with military prowess alone

prowess that he acquired through writers fiat alone. He goes from a mouth-breather who can't plan a picnic without Saurfang there to pick up after him, to the Warcraft Lord Creed under a year. They could have explained it away as him having good advisers, but all his advisers thought he was a war-mongering idiot too.

> His victories in Northrend won him the rank of Warlord.


He only got to where he was because his last name was Hellscream and Thrall has a orc-boner over him, thus choosing to groom him over other candidates. Garrosh was carried by Saurfang. You see it in the Tundra as Saurfang is practically beating the logistics of a single squad into him, and he still thinks pride is sufficient over rations, weapons, and armor.

Saurfang is the hero orcs deserve.

>That's probably higher than you've gotten in RBGs

Got rank 10 in vanilla and Gladiator in BC as a feral druid. I crawled my way to rank over the corpses of my rivals, more than Garrosh can say for. Garrosh only got rank because his daddy was Garrosh and thrall wasn't over his orc-crush.

>>46974862
only, he was the first guy to fall to frostmourne making him a patsy
thanks golden you big hack

>>46974655
People got mad that it was bombed because Theramore was more than just soldiers and warriors. A lot of civilians and children died in the bombings, something Garrosh was against prior to this in Cataclysm.

Really, the entire thing is just sloppy fucking writing on Blizzard's part to push Garrosh into being a villain because Horde players didn't like him.

>>46974790
>Actually I think Jaina's reaction was absolutely right.
Except it wasn't. She put Theramore in that position by overseeing all the things I said. Anon, you don't poke a tiger in the eye with a sharp stick and then act shocked and angry when it bites you. Her reaction, in the way she acts like the Horde is the only party responsible for the events leading up to the bombing, reeks of hypocrisy. This coming from a woman who, again I must mention, helped kill her own father rather than allow him to perpetuate a vicious cycle of violence that would put innocent people at risk.

If Jaina isn't even mad that the Horde attacked Theramore. She already knew they were going to attack, and if they'd attacked the way she thought they were going to Theramore would have WON.

She's mad because they did something she didn't expect and used a "cowardly weapon" to beat her.

As a WoW player who has done bombing runs on every continent across two worlds and multiple timelines, *for the Alliance,* I'm calling bullshit.

Bombs are okay but not when you use them against me!

>>46974831
I don't disagree with Varian's decision to try peace. His father and Thralls father were both killed because their people wouldn't give peace a shot. If Varian had listened to Jaina and killed the horde leaders (or tried to at least) it would have only caused a death toll that would have crippled both factions. The Horde and Alliance are just mindless factions that will fall apart if their leaders are taken out, they ass loads of other people that can step up and carry on the fight.

it also shows that Varian has a sense of honour, they helped him defeat Garrosh.

>>46974892
>something Garrosh was against prior to this in Cataclysm.
Garrosh was against bombing a neutral druid school that had no military significance whatsoever. Not one soldier or one weapon among them. Purely pointless destruction.

Theramore wasn't neutral and was THE major enemy military installation in the region.

Hiding behind civilians is quite a cowardly act. Perhaps Jaina should not have mixed her innocent peanut butter with her army chocolate?

>>46974904
No, she is mad because the orcs invade alliance territory, destroy HER city and they treat her as a monster for kicking the blood elves out. She keeps dalaran neutral until the blood elves break it's neutrality by actively helping the horde as a neutral body.

It was always a neutral place and the horde started the conflict. People get salty because blizzard tries the false equivalence thing when it is completely one sided because they wanted their orcs to be cool badasses like wc2.

>>46974915
you don't throw away all your men have died for and sacrificed to let the horde regrow. Jaina was right. The horde needs to be dismantled.

>>46974607
Meh. It's kinda like one of the big comic houses, Marvel or DC. There are some good stories, short runs and arcs that succeed in varying degrees, but more often than not the stories sound more interesting than they are because the fanbase is so invested in it.

Like other people have suggested, you're better off reading summaries than actual books.

>>46974972
pretty much this.
Blizzard's power creep is too bad

>>46974949
The horde as a whole gets a pass for theramore, but Jaina's decision to destroy orgrimmar is shown as evil because there are little orclets in the orphanage in orgrimmar.

That is cartoonishly terrible.

>>46974968
>you don't throw away all your men have died for and sacrificed to let the horde regrow. Jaina was right. The horde needs to be dismantled.
by that logic so does the alliance

>>46975009
>The horde as a whole gets a pass for theramore
it wasn't the horde that did that, It was garrosh's horde. We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.

>>46974862
Arthas was never part of the current Alliance of Stormwind.

And Ragnaros was a Dark Iron thing before the Dark Irons became good for whatever reason.

>>46974778
>The problem with theramore is that the horde never got it's payback for that.
Alliance players got to literally put their dicks inside of Orgrimmar in story canon. They got a title called "The Hordebreaker."

Heck, this isn't even the first time the Alliance has gotten to sack a Horde capital city in the course of the game's lore. And it's made clear that if the Alliance weren't so morally strong, they could annihilate the opposite faction whenever they wanted.

It honestly surprises me that in a game that's balanced around having two factions, that one is painted in such an inferior light. What could the Horde do if Jaina or Malfurion just decided one day that they really wanted the Horde gone?

>>46975019
Fuck the Horde. The Orcs come to Azeroth, rape pillage and burn everything and then hide behind "muh demun blud" while they keep fucking doing it, and even worse shit like blatant chemical warfare and necromancy, and then expect mercy?

Burn them all to the ground.

>>46975032
>We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha

>>46975032
no, we dismantle the nazi party and break germany up so that we can rebuild them as good people instead of being the teutonic menace in central europe.
>>46975019
no, the alliance doesn't actively try and hunt down evil artifacts or do large scale Biological warfare.
>>46975057
Only, they can do nothing. Malfurion is neutral to the extent that he stands there as his wife gets killed by hordies looking for cheevos and lets ashenvale burn.

The alliance doesn't get to sack shit. The alliance helps 'liberate' orgrimmar and install a warchief that starts stirring shit up in the next expansion.

>>46975009
I honestly wish she had destroyed Orgrimmar. That would have been interesting, and almost surely would have ended with us looting Jaina's corpse.

But that would have shit all over the Alliance's moral high ground during MoP, which would have eliminated a large part of the point of MoP.

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>>46974968
>People get salty because blizzard tries the false equivalence thing when it is completely one sided because they wanted their orcs to be cool badasses like wc2.

Much of the Cataclym-MoP conflict happened because much of blizzard's current writing team (not the good ones who moved to Titan after Ulduar) are die-hard WC2 horde fanboys. This ran into conflict because most of the Horde playerbase rolled horde because of Warcraft III showcasing the Horde as underdogs struggling to survive, and the sense of family that pre-Blood elf hordies had because they were hopelessly outnumbered by the Alliance and had to play it smart to not poke the sleeping giant too much or too hard.

Then Cataclysm hit, and the Horde turns into a superpower overnight yet keep their underdog winning streak. They also devolve into a bunch of murder-hobos who only kill for the sake of the adrenaline high they get from it, not honor, not defense. The old school horde gets pissed because they didn't sign up for the unrepentantly evil Horde, and the Alliance gets pissed because they lose at everything, and get hit with the Lawful stupid bat while being fed this High King storyline so the writing team can cut corners by mirroring the Horde quest texts with a Blue Warchief. This all hit the breaking point with Thereamore getting bombed because the writers thought that the Alliance didn't have enough reason to hate the current horde leadership.

>>46975032
>We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.
Oh, you poor naive child.

We literally tore that country in half, put guns in the middle to keep the two from mixing, let one half starve while the people tried desperately to just see their children or flee a communist hellhole, and then stitched it back together by tearing a wall down and then left them to pick up the pieces themselves.

The deer are STILL conditioned to not go near where the wall used to be.

>>46974968
>she is mad because the orcs invade alliance territory
Ah yes. Make Azeroth Great Again. Deport all the greenskins back to Outland. Rabble rabble.

And Dalaran is back to being neutral much to my chagrin. Can I say I'm not excited? Dalaran should never be neutral. The Kirin Tor should be an Alliance faction and should remain as such.

Making the Kirin Tor neutral just strikes me as lazy because Blizzard can't be bothered to give the Horde a decent analogue, so instead they get a hand me down.

Oh hi, Shattrath, I didn't see you there. Why am I in this Draenei city? Well that's a funny story. Because Blood Elves. Hey, that's the same as Dalaran!

>>46975144
Much of Europe was also against German reunification due to old prejudices and thinking that they haven't suffered enough.

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>>46972109
I would say Oblivion and Skyrim were more damning to them in the more modern sense. As well as the Lord of the Rings movies (not the setting or series, just the movies specifically).

They were so generic and everyone went emulating that rather than using a fantasy setting to its fullest and having interesting things. Hell the big focus on humans tends to be the worst part of it all. Warcraft also plays this part with an innane focus on their generic humans, but at least it has the Horde throwing some interesting bits in there.

>>46975204
Much of Germany wasn't excited for reunification. Hell, eastern Germany still isn't anywhere as productive as western and there's still prejudice between citizens on account of that.

>>46975227
to be fair, legion looks really REALLY good in terms of worldbuilding and new factions

>>46974968
>No, she is mad because the orcs invade alliance territory
Oh and can I mention one more time that she was one of the people responsible for the founding of Orgrimmar to begin with? So that whole "mad at orcs for being on muh land" is even more hypocritical!

Daelin died for nothing.

>>46975289
oh, absolutely.

>>46975098
The orcs are literally the only race that's not native to Azeroth in the horde.

>>46975248
Every time the Korean conflict get brought up, the German reunification shows up too. Except Korea would be far worse.

>>46972761
This

>>46975123
I'm honestly more annoyed that it looks like they're putting fucking Sylvanas in charge. Literally any of the other three top dogs would make more sense.

>>46974968
>cries for peace
>while allowing her city to be used as a war time port, supplying a war effort into horde lands
>boo hoo, why'd you nuke my city, all I was doing was letting other people use it to attack you
>went around killing the hell out of blood elves for the actions of a small handful
>most of those being attacked in dalaran had no idea what was going on

Jaina is a MASSIVE hypocrite.

>>46975200
It's also because most of the key areas in BC were neutral. The island north of Quel'thalas is blood elf territory and also neutral.

If anything making an anti-Illidari faction would have made sense but would have been hard to justify Draenei and Blood Elves being enemies of the other two factions.

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>>46975322
As I said in another thread, this is what happens when one of the lead developers is the biggest Sylvanas fanboy.

>>46975339
she already was part of the alliance
She didn't sue for peace ONCE the war started, remember?

She is pissed off that her city gets blown up and what sets her over the edge is that her apprentice gets turned into mana dust.

>>46975303
SK is in a shitty position. On one hand, you don't want NK to continue to exist; they're the definition of batshit crazy. On the other hand, SK would tank trying to modernize that place. To say nothing of how many generations it will take to deprogram that whole populace.

>>46975348
>ywn see a Vol'jin/Theron teamup

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>>46975286
Well, this guy put it well.
>>46975123
From Cata till now, the writers were trying for a warcraft 2 feel. The problem being this isnt warcraft 2, far more people played wc3, warcraft 2 had generic writing even by fantasy standards, and focusing on just humans and orcs when you have 13 playable races is retarded.

So now we have legion and blizzard is notably making every single race do at least something.

[spoilers] even if the faction pandaren are still doing jack shit. Seriously, they didnt even do anything in MoP [/spoiler]

My only real hangup with Legion so far is that the whole "Vrykul are good now guys!" thing is stupid. Specially when the chronicles book makes their leader into a villain (he soul raped his adopted daughter and is essentially a shiny necromancer)

>>46975350
She was allowing Theramore to be used as a war time supply port prior to it being blown up. A lot of the bitching about Theramore is that it didnt deserve that. When it fully well deserved to be attacked given that it was a huge military target.

>>46975409
Have they removed the tank supply line that went from Theramore to the gates of Mulgore yet?

>>46975409
In universe it certainly didn't deserve that. Not while garrosh had 0 ports. No one destroys infrastructure they can use.

>>46975347
>It's also because most of the key areas in BC were neutral. The island north of Quel'thalas is blood elf territory and also neutral.
Comparing the main town throughout the expansion to a tacked on island that Blizz threw in after the Black Citadel because BC wasn't "Burning Legiony" enough is sort of one sided, isn't it?

That said, bringing up Shatt isn't entirely fair on my part, seeing as though it was A'dal running the show there not the Draenei. Technically. It was still a Draenei town. And I hate to say it, but the Naaru seem more Alliance aligned than anything. They even have a pet one in the SS Draeneiboat.

The Horde's own pet Naaru was delicious, but it sort of died.

And yes, I agree with your other point.

>>46973771
It's worth mentioning they had thought police ninjas making sure noone got too angry, sad, worried, and so on.
So... China then!

>>46975467
Ha, I never thought of it that way. Good catch.

>>46975460
He has a port in azshara, and a dock off of orgrimmar.

>>46975461
>The Horde's own pet Naaru was delicious, but it sort of died.

Man, that entire part was fucked up. M'uuru would've just given the Blood Elves his power if they asked for it and instead they literally chained a god up in their basement and got high on his blood.

I love how just pure, high evil the Blood Elves used to be before they got redeemed at the Sunwell.

>>46975350
>her apprentice gets turned into mana dust.
Wait, he was her apprentice? I thought Raptor Rho was her colleague, not her subordinate. My lore-fu is weak.

>>46975508
>1 dock
>1 recently established port full of exploding gobbos
>he pulls out a navy to blockade theramore

>>46973794
What? How does that resemble Tolkien?

>>46975520
Kinnidy sparkshine

Basically blizzard loves throwing in cheap emotional buttons to press

>>46975522
The core naval power in the old alliance is also fucked beyond belief after cata.

Also Quel'thalas does have active docks

>>46975552
yes, only there were no elves in the attack. It was all 'oldschool wc2 cool orcs'

>>46975098
The Elves have caused more damage to Azeroth than any other race by FAR. When they fuck up its always really major.

Followed by Trolls, unless we're counting Old Gods.

Orcs are fairly low on the "fucked things up" totem poll even if you're counting when they were under the direct influence of demon blood.

Also, aside from Nelves and Pandaren, all alliance races were made by aliens or are aliens. Opposed to Horde, where only two can say the same (orc and forsaken).

>>46975582
>Elves and Trolls' fuckups are always the worst
Easy when they're the oldest races on Azeroth. Even the humans, gnomes and dwarves are debatably native by comparison.

>>46975582
The biggest geography change the Orcs have done is raising the Broken Isles again. Pretty minor.

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>>46975509
>I love how just pure, high evil the Blood Elves used to be before they got redeemed at the Sunwell.

Me too, anon, me too. I miss those days.

I still have fond memories of the way that church in Stratholme burned. Oh, the ghosts of the founding paladins of the noble Silver Hand railed so fiercely as I struck them down.

For a worthless scrap of cloth. It doesn't even have stats!

I did that for fun, anon. I sucked the Draenei's deity like a lifesaver. I defiled the last bit of pure sacred ground among the scourged hellscape that is Stratholme because FUCK the Silver Hand.

And now, in Legion, my paladin will become the leader of the Silver Hand.

Sad. I miss those days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZngGIw5ONWE

>>46975635
I liked the ending of Sunwell and I still miss pre-Sunwell Belves.

At least they pulled out the old red armors for Lady Liadrin's troops.

>>46975009
Theramore was a military installation encroaching onto the only land the Tauren ever had.

>>46975800
no, it was a city in an unoccupied zone that was pushing into tauren land AFTER the horde started the war.

>>46975582
>orcs
>literal green men
>literal extraterrestrial invaders
>literally from a red planet
>not aliens

Le ecksqueeze me? xD

>>46975144
>let one half starve

You mean the followers of That Which Has Never Been Tried Before let it starve.

>>46975522
To be honest though, Orgrimmar just uses lolneutral Ratchet as its main naval supply line. Which the Alliance realized, so they had Northwatch put the screws to Ratchet during Cataclysm prior to the Theramore bombing.

And yes, militarily speaking, Garrosh was an idiot. One of the many traits that made him lackluster as a villain, in my opinion. His comedic stupidity.

What was that scene in Cataclysm? The Goblin asked what kind of commander sends his airships forward without fighter support, to which the Kor'kron replies "A WINNER" before (I think) killing him?

And then there was the whole incident with the Divine Bell. What a mess.

I'm convinced Garrosh was literally retarded.

>>46972109
It was already ruined.

>>46975391
>he soul raped his adopted daughter

Hot. Details?

>>46972514
This right here.

>>46975858
>He had an adopted daughter
>He wanted an army
>Decided his army should come from the souls of the dead
>Needs people to get said souls
>"I know, I'll have Vrykul women do it"
>Asks his adopted daughter to lead these women
>They need to be undead to claim the souls of the dead
>"No father thats stupid, and I dont want to be undead"
>"Fuck you bitch, I'll make you"
>Odynn then enslaves her soul
>And makes her get the spirits of the dead, which he shoves into golems

>years later she curses his army, dissallowing him from using them
>this somehow makes her the villain

>>46975811
Built by the few in Dalaran, Lordaeron, Hillsbrad and Kul Tiras who listened to Jaina about the coming demons.

It's a refugee city!

>>46974668
Also like Dragonlance, there's a very finite story that can be told, but that doesn't prevent everyone from pretending otherwise so we can milk the setting well past the point of death.

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>>46975391
>My only real hangup with Legion so far is that the whole "Vrykul are good now guys!" thing is stupid.
That sounds fun.

My biggest hang up is the whole "MAIEV IS GOOD NOW GUYS IT'S COOL" neck snapping 180 degree turn. Wasn't that bitch on a killing spree like, last week in the game's timeline? Not that she was ever truly what you'd call "good" even in the RTS games. That chick is about as vicious as you can possibly get without going into full Lawful Evil territory.

Scratch that, in Wolfheart she absolutely does go into full Lawful Evil territory. She lead a death squad in committing a string of murders then tried to kill Malfurion. And they're going to sweep all that aside with durrCORUPSHUN rather than let her character arc play out.

People act like Sylvanas is an irredeemable monster with not a single positive trait, but I hardly hear anybody talk about how dumb it is for Maiev to suddenly be allowed at the cool kids table.

>>46972109
Warcraft ruined warcraft fantasy

>>46976013
>knaak books
they might as well be fanfic

>>46976017
Truth. I could never have said it better.

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>>46976030
God I hate him

>>46975811
According to the Garrosh leader story, the war was started by alliance naval attacks in Durotar that started in wc3 and never stopped and were supported by the alliance.

>>46976053
>bad dragons number on customer

>>46976030
Yeah but was it really out of character for her to do that? I would argue that it was not, given her track record on prosecuting the law no matter how many people have to die for her to do it.

The character has a good history for being as screwed up as she is. Throwing that away is cheap pandering.

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>>46976053
>>46976030
Hey guys, come on now, don't diss Raptor Rho.

Who else could travel back in time and train an army of velociraptors to fight a dragon to save the world?

>>46975104
>>46975144
only eastern germany got punished :^)

>>46973835
Lots of HPLs mages doubled as priests to Old Ones. Much of Moorcock's magic was based around pacts with Lords of Law and Chaos which usually ended with them serving the those powers directly or indirectly. While Tolkien's magic came from a lot of sources much of the time the flashier stuff came from a connect to divine beings. In fact all of the wizards in Middle Earth could be considered clerics by D&D standards.

Flashing, kaboom magic did exist in those settings but it was usually incredibly rare. In HPL grand teleportantions or destructive curses took days or months to prepare, where usually cast in secret and had a very high chance of fucking up the user. In HPverse if your magic is flashy your soul is probably mostly gone. Gandalf is pretty much the only kaboom wizard we see in LotR even then it's on par with the destructive power of a handgun or molotov-cocktail. The big stuff is more abstract spiritual powers saved for really important shit.
Elric has the blastiest magic out of the three and even then it's used somewhat sparingly. Each spell comes with the weight of some demonic pact and despite being an amazingly powerful sorcerer, Elric handles most challenges physically if he can.

And in all cases blowshituppicus mages are the exception not the norm.

>>46973447
It's not so much a problem with limit. In D&D universe it works fine. The problem comes when D&D is assumed to be a stand in for all fantasy setting and that particular limit becomes the norm.

>>46975826
Three other countries, with armies, were right there.
Could have said something.
Could have done something.
Chose to do nothing.
Yeah, kinda like the Alliance, now that I think about it.

>>46976113
CITIZENS OF DALARAN

>>46976113
....the Boss from Saint's Row?

>>46975106
>thinking the horde can be defeated
>thinking sylvanas can't single handedly take on the alliance
as long as she lives, every battle, every casualty, will rise up to serve her. thats not a battle anyone can win.

>>46976164
I thought she only had 13 Val'kyr? And lost three of them in Silverpine.

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>>46976164
>

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>>46976113

>>46974655

>If you use your town or church or orphanage for puppies as a major military installation supplying troops and material to an invasion force, why get mad when it gets bombed? Why?

Because thats racist and you are only bombing schools because you hate mulsims and want to blow up school. pay no attention to the fact it is used as a weapons cache or rocket missile platform.

Oh wait...

>>46976119
>Lots of HPLs mages doubled as priests to Old Ones.

Yes, but absolutely normal, non Old One worshiping people could definitely use magic too. Its definitely arcane stuff, as in one protag just plain learns the spell and bam.

>pacts with Lords of Law and Chaos

Law, Balance & Chaos was used as the basis for D&D's alignment in general, and to be fair Cacodemon was a magic user spell decades before Planar Ally existed. Cacodemon, Planar Binding, etc. also depend on making agreements with demons, warlocks are considered arcane, etc.

Similarly, Elric's spells are used in a way primarily based off painstaking memorization.

>wizards

I'm not talking about Tolkien's guys called wizards, who also don't do much that's blowshituppicus (Gandalf's most explody thing was Fire Seeds/Pinecone of Doom), Galadriel was explicitly taught how to casts the spell of blowing shit up.

Yes, I'm aware that there are many divine type casters in the aforementioned books, and that there are lots of arcane type casters. Galadriel was just an elf, and she was taught how to blow up fortresses. Clear arcane example.

>In HPverse if your magic is flashy your soul is probably mostly gone.

Wizards in the HPverse are usually evil, moreso than the eldritch beings they may or may not truck with. Its not at all clear that they are magically corrupted by their power, as good wizards in the HP verse show no sign of corruption. They may be stressed, but not remotely due to their spells.

>Elric has the blastiest magic out of the three

He's more of a conjurer or summoner. Elric also prefers, generally, to use nice, elemental spells when possible. I don't know of any cases of Elric using attack spells that aren't some form of summoning, personally.

The evoker he meets isn't saved by it, but he's definitely a blasty mage.

>exception not the norm

That wasn't what was argued, either way. What was argued was that arcane vs divine is a D&D trope, when it is clearly not.

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>>46972109
World of Warcraft didn't really do much different.

"Classic fantasy" was "ruined" by Heavy Metal Magazine and D&D nerds trying REALLY hard to tap the vein and come up with new shit, like Spelljammer.

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>>46974776

>1) Events that you see while leveling as Horde that are never mentioned again.

Yeah...

>play horde toon
>lvl up around post caty barrens
>then alliance general is fucking bloodthirsty man
>he killed wimmins and chilluns at a hunting camp that had no ties to the army
>go fuck his shit up
>hell yeah screw this dickbag!
>go and curb stomp him

Then later on...

>lvl alliance toon up in post caty barrens
>talk to general
>he ordered his troops to leave a gap in their line so wimmins and chilluns can escape
>theives and looters set in
>Find out when going to next questing area kind hearted general was curb stomped by some horde bastards.
>remember what i did as horde
>holy shit im an asshole

I always played horde and only powered myself up in lvls.

It was a lot of fun doing a playthrough where i followed the storyline.

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Lei Shen should have been more hyped up and been the final boss of MoP

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>>46972514
No, that's digital art that ruined it.

Which ruined ALL pop art.

Look at this. Its a fucking Jim Lee work, and it looks like fucking generic ass. The pencil sketch looks great, but then they scan it and make it look horrible.

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>>46976179
>>46976210
the ressurection process might take longer than the vamp counts in warhammer, but she can still create forsaken with the plagues her warlocks are cooking up.

you're a fool if you think she doesn't have any plagues

>>46976138

Oh my God.
>cry about US being too violent
>cry about US being not violent enough

There is absolutely no satisfying you people. None. Ever. Period. We did our very best to defeat the Soviets without it blowing up in our, and the world's, faces, and hey, it worked. Hell, the whole reason the US has fallen into our eternal war doctrine is because we had a very hard time getting OUT of the Cold War mindset.

It wasn't our mess to clean up in the first place, and we could have very well left all of Germany to Russia. Certainly history shows that was the right thing to do.

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>>46976334

>>46974157
Actually, the Grimtotems were fucking over Theramore pretty hard. They destroyed the outlying communities and were planning on wiping it out.

This was before the Grimtotem were booted out of the Horde, too.

>>46976318
To be fair, a general who cant control his men aint much of a general

>>46976327
What, you didnt like how MoP became a huge Orc wank?

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>>46974078
There was a race of semi-intelligent monkeys native to an island in the ocean the Trolls enslaved.
They used the monkeys to harvest glowing rocks the Trolls used in their dark magic and shit or whatever.
The glowing rocks made the monkeys hyper-intelligent, especially when eaten (the Trolls were starving them to make them work harder). When the Trolls that shipped the rocks came back they expected to see their own port village forcing creatures that barely understood tools to load the ship, and instead found the rubble that was once their village and the monkeys having discovered how to make explosives.

The Trolls did not want to fuck with the monkeys, so they never returned.

The monkeys continued consuming the crystals, and they quickly evolved into mostly hairless bipeds that still had very gangly limbs with long fingers, and were short.

Within a short span of time they'd gone from intelligent animals to the single most advanced race on the planet. They also kept consuming the crystals, making every generation smarter to the point that in World of Warcraft they are putting it in soda pop and energy drinks.

There was a plot point about how the crystals are running out and the Goblins are scared of what will happen if they ever stop consuming it, but the storyline was dropped outside of jokes.

Most Goblins have forgotten their own origins, and it just remains an amusing anecdote but most Goblins still have a strong dislike of non-Darkspear Jungle Trolls and enslave them to do the mining now.

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>>46975032

>We didn't punish all of Germany for what the Nazis did.

Not sure if trolling or just stupid.

>>46974607
It really needs a single player game. Like, badly.

I love it but just can't into MMOs now.

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>Within a short span of time they'd gone from intelligent animals to the single most advanced race on the planet

>>46976030
>>46976053
Thank god Karen Traviss hasn't started to write for WoW yet.

Between her and Knaak and a gun with one bullet in it I think I'd have to shoot myself first.

>>46976453
>>46976489
thats a pretty sweet story actually I didn't know that.

the most advanced race on azeroth is Dreanei tho, they've already achieved space travel.

>>46975032
We firebombed the shit out of them, and the Russians spared literally nobody. The Russians made a point of raping EVERY woman they came across, 5 months to 130.

The Allies also got sick of resistance forces fighting to the last, using up the last bullet, and THEN surrendering and instead just shot the shit out of any place that fire came from. When they did accept surrender, any SS were immediately killed. They were easy to find because the SS had a tattoo marking who they were. In fear, many tried removing said tattoo so any surrendered males had to bare the arm the tattoo went on, if there was a wound you got one to the head then and there.

Not only that, but after the fighting there wasn't enough of German cities left that wasn't unsafe and due to collapse at any moment to even house the remaining population in a lot of cases.

>>46976371
The Grimtotem have only ever nominally been part of the Horde. There were plenty of quests in Vanilla Stonetalon Mountains and Thousand Needles which had you culling them for crimes against the Horde.

The only non-hostile Grimtotem I can even name is Magatha in Thunderbluff and she's shifty as all hell.

>>46976554
Nah, they're incredibly old and knowledgable about magic but the space travel shit is because they were adopted by the Naaru.

Tempest Keep is entirely Naaru.

>>46975302
Ogres. Draenei.
Elves are just mutated Trolls, Dwarves and Humans and Gnomes aren't supposed to exist.

Hell, Draenei weren't even native to Draenor.

>>46976564
>literally believing Heer generals' memoirs

>>46974083
He never learnt how to talk to the other leaders of the Horde. Hell, we saw this in the WotLK, he basically ignored what Saurfang had to say on logistics and focused on the more glorious parts of war.

>>46975391
>46975391
Okay, I dropped out of WoW before Warlords ended.

Can anyone sum up what I missed? Because that's a huge lore bomb.

>>46976564
Dresden got fucked, and that was before the war was over. eastern germany got fucked, and thats because America didn't want to stop the soviets, that would have meant war with them. as for the SS being executed thats 100% deserved and justified.

>>46976622
Basically Legion has the legion invading in full force and everything going to shit.

I will be fucking miffed if alt-Shat can't be reclaimed

>>46976554
Draenei are most magically advanced

Goblin are most technologically advanced

Gnomes are a close second, but it brings up the question of how much is genuine intellect, and how much is just stuff in their mind from when they were the servants of mimiron/copying titans.

Goblins really are the best thing in warcraft, from just about every standpoint.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin#Warcraft

>>46975409
The thing with Theramore is the fact the weapon that Garrosh used was stolen from neutral allies of the group of dudes trying to prevent all of reality from ending when retards decide to fuck it and become endbosses to expansions.

The other problem is the bomb destroys souls. It doesn't just kill you, it unmakes you. Fate worse than death.
He used the ultimate weapon on an enemy he caused himself to have as a show of force.

So Garrosh didn't just wage a war, he went as far as you can in Crimes Against Sapient Beings as you can go.

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>>46976210
Oh boy! Koltira Deathweaver.

That incompetent milquetoast imbecile.

That pitiful flip flopping goldfish is lucky that Sylvanas only flushed him down the Undercity toilet. Had he fucked up a campaign that badly in Kalimdor he'd have been rag dolling his way down a cliff, or decorating the ground beneath a tower.

So now we're treating him like he's deserving of rescue? His dubious loyalties cost the Forsaken in manpower and resources. If he wanted to play pattycake with Thessarian he should have stayed safe beneath Mograine's skirts.

Good, let the Ebon Blade take him back. Hopefully they won't try to pawn him back off onto the Horde the moment he indirectly stabs them in the back.

>>46972109
No. The 80's and 90's did with loincloth wrestlers.

>>46976669
Oh what's a few souls between friends?

And are we going to sit here and pretend the Alliance hadn't condoned the use of mana bombs prior to and after Theramore? We gonna do that? Because I don't think we should do that.

>>46976622
Odynns stuff is mostly in the new lore book

Essentially:
>Odynn is the head titan keeper
>Got pissed when they blessed the aspects, deeming that stupid
>Had his adopted daughter lift his part of Ulduar into the heavens
>There he began making his army with the souls of the dead. See:
>>46975918

In Legion, the class of Warrior leads his army. The whole questline makes no sense from a warriors actual standpoint is the issue. As we start out by becoming his champion, but none of the questing mentions this, and freeing his army is something everyone does, as it takes place in a dungeon.

Also we go to Ulduar which has been attacked by demons to free abunch of keepers who join our crew.

Warriors are essentially being made into Marvel vikings with a lot of light motiffs thrown in for some reason.

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>>46976361
Fuck, I miss that art.

Stop writing Metzen, get back to drawing!

>>46976669
>caused himself to have

But thats not true at all.

I suppose the problem is that a lot of this stuff is in the novels. But, Garrosh was largely forced into the war by a combination of humans constantly attacking his people in Durotar, and the Alliances refusal to trade.

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>>46976737
>Stop writing Metzen
I don't know if to object or not.
It's not like anyone can save this mess by now, but I guess I could at least get some new nice drawings out of metzen.

>>46974308
Man I had a tube absolute packed with full sized everquest posters from vanilla to velious that I lost years back. Feels bad man.

All I fucking want is old everquest with a graphics overhaul and a sleight reduction in the metric fuck huge amount of time it took to do fucking anything, is that too much go ask?

>everquest next cancelled after jewing thousands of people out of money with landmark
>original creators are making a top down hack n slash action rpg
God damnit. I'm never going to get a mmo made just for the mmo enthusiast that focuses on maintaining a healthy community instead of we want the everyone demographic

>>46976742
The main problem was the Night Elves.

You see, Thrall founded Orgrimmar in Durotar as a means of penance. Durotar is a wasteland with very little in the way of natural resources, so for a growing city to survive it needs to get those resources from somewhere.

That somewhere is Ashenvale. Now, the Night Elves could easily trade wood with Orgrimmar. Wood that wouldn't grieve them to see used for essential services.

But they don't. Because they fucking hate the orcs and want them to go die.

Thrall spent years trying to kiss their purple asses the right way to get them to relax about the whole Cenarius thing to no avail. He had to have wood imported from fucking ELWYN FOREST for Orgrimmar to survive.

So when Garrosh is put in charge, he said fuck that shit, I'm getting the wood next door. The sacred magical living Ent wood that the Night Elves DO NOT want anyone chopping down.

This was after an Old God worshipping cult straight up FRAMED the Horde which lead to the Alliance stopping all trade with Orgrimmar, so all the people trying to live in Orgrimmar were suffering. Garrosh chose the easiest and most direct route to end that suffering.

By telling the Night Elves to go fuck themselves. Which got Stormwind involved. Which got Theramore involved.

So this is really Tyrande's fault.

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>>46976554
During the Goblin start area, your character is the CEO of the company making soda out of the crystals, Kajamite. Kaja Cola. You're set to lead the Bilgewater Cartel and take over from your former mentor, Gallywix who is Goblin Donald Trump but fat as hell.

You drink them and your character spouts off random silly things like brilliant and insane ideas.

Kezan is shown to be basically like the Judge Dredd universe, minus the Judges.

So as Deathwing is flying around the world lighting shit on fire, you're doing a TV promo for Kaja Cola where you kick off the ball at the start of a game of Gridiron Football played in giant robots. The ball hits Deathwing in the face, so he causes the volcano on Kezan to erupt. So all the Bilgewater Goblins sell all of their belongings to Gallywix to book his yacht off the island (you actually steal HIS possessions to sell back to him). Gallywix locks his own people in the hold, figuring he'll sell them as slaves.

Then they get caught in a naval battle between the Horde and Alliance. Shipwrecked, you struggle to survive in basically Australia. Some monkeys native to the island start drinking Kata Cola and lead a rebellion against you, the plants are all carnivorous, the local pygmies are out for Goblin meat, and you cause ANOTHER volcano to explode trying to blow up a fucking lava turtle demigod.

Then Thrall shows up, says the Horde could use Goblins and recruits Gallywix as racial leader of the Bilgewater Goblins into the Horde so you're stuck as Garrosh's bitch while Gallywix reshapes part of a continent into the shape of the Horde symbol with a Mount Rushmore of his own face and an elaborate pleasure palace on top.

You find out Kezan survived the volcano, none of that had to happen at all.

>>46976849
you forgot
>warsong logging throughout post wc3 which thralls allows

>>46976849
>we should sell resources to a country of warmongering savages that killed our forest god only a decade ago or else they might invade us again!

I bet you blame America for embargoing Japan in WW2. Appeasement doesn't work.

>>46976657
So what happened with the end of Warlords, and what's the most important things about Legion to know?

Vrykul are good now? Is it the original Gul'dan running around, or alternate universe?

>>46976894
>I bet you blame America for embargoing Japan in WW2. Appeasement doesn't work.
How is not embargoing japan appeasement?

>>46975098
Blame the fucking draenei. They invaded draenor and brought the burning legion with them.

>>46976915
because American oil/rubber/steel imports were vital to Japan's war efforts in China. When they took French Indochina the Americans had enough and decided to embargo them.

Night Elves have every right to not sell wood to the Orcs.

>>46976865
As far as lore is concerned, that wasn't happening during WoW's timeline. Going by the books and the lore we were given, it was because the Night Elves still held a grudge about getting their shit slapped by Grommash (even after they sic their God on him. How embarassing) that they refused to cooperate with the orcs.

This is worsened by Twilight Hammer shenanigans, eventually leading to war which lead to the Theramore bombing.

But I'm sure you'll win the blame game if I'm going to argue for the Horde. The end result, however, does not change.

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>>46976244

>>46976849
>>46976742
In the comics, the Alliance was going to trade everything Durotar needed for luxury items like pelts.

They had an actual agreement in paper.

The reason it wasn't signed is because Garrosh literally kept saying "FUCK YOU, WHY ARE YOU MAKING A TRADE DEAL WHEN WE CAN KILL EVERYONE AND TAKE EVERYTHING". Shit, he told the ten year old Anduin all he was thinking about was killing him.

Also, Ashenvale isn't a normal forest. The souls of the Night Elves are in the trees, and a lot of them come to life in the sense it can walk and talk when its pissed off.

That lumber would have to come from Feralas by ship, something the Horde was fully capable of but didn't for the reason of providing conflict. Shit, in the lore the Horde WAS logging Feralas but just wasn't doing it as fast as the Orc population was exploding.

>>46976894
>killed our forest god
Oh please, it's not like he really died or anything. He was just stuck in the Emerald Dream for a few years.

>>46976944
1) They didn't invade, they traveled to another planet that the Naaru told them to go to and the Orcs didn't even encounter the Draenei fore some time meaning the Draenei thought it was uninhabited.
2) The Legion expands everywhere, they just decided to corrupt the Orcs rather than destroy everything so the Draenei would be nailed by a surprise attack.

>>46976946
no, it literally happens and the orcs don't pull out.
Shitty third party 'lore dumps' are shit

>>46976894
Yet it was America that ultimately nuked Japan.

At least the US was willing to see their pissy attitude through to its logical conclusion and doesn't play the victim forever.

Meanwhile the Night Elves graciously allow Orgrimmar to exist while simultaneously leaving them to languish without allowing them the means to support themselves.

That isn't appeasement. It's being a contrary bitch. Even when Thrall for years was willing to suck that purple moss covered dick to get what they got.

And they were fine with Cenarius going in to kill the Orcs when they didn't think Cenarius could lose.

>>46976946
the night elves are just cunts in general. they didn't even want to join the alliance because they hate everything that isn't purple with pointy ears.

of course we all know that secretly while all their men sleep in the emerald dream, the sentinels are out bouncing on orc dick.

>>46976990
Oh yeah, forgot how he showed back up in Hyjal. Didn't fucking Malorne show back up too?

Point still stands that Orcs were the aggressors and Night Elves have been on the defensive ever since the orcs first landed in Kalimdor.

Thread relevant.

Warning: NSFW. https://e621.net/post/show/877753/2016-3d_-artwork-abs-anal-angry-animated-beads-bea

>>46977021
Thrall does jackshit.
They keep on logging in ashenvale after being told to leave while the alliance does.

>>46977035
>E621
>this better be furry porn
>it's not

>>46977020
You may find the lore shit, but it's canon as far as Blizzard is concerned. Shall I trigger you further with a picture of baby Thrall?

>>46976946
>Going by the books
Fuck your fanfiction.

>>46977024
>of course we all know that secretly while all their men sleep in the emerald dream, the sentinels are out bouncing on orc dick.
Retconned, for WoW player base reasons.

There were men outside the Dream, and women within it. There just wasn't very many.

Most female Druids are represented by the player ones, likewise male Hunters.

>>46977039
That wasn't mentioned in the pre-Cata lore books, so if we're specifically discussing the story that lead up to the destruction of Theramore then your WC3 beef wasn't used canonically for that purpose.

I mean it's fine if you want to keep chanting it, but the people that wrote the Cataclysm story did not have that in mind. Just so we're clear.

>>46977048
no one cares, the entire questlines in vanilla are about how the orcs are harvesting lumber and destroying the forest post WC3 and the night elves keep them away. The alliance doesn't and the night elves become allies because they have fought the horde before and actually kept their words.

>>46977049
>>Going by the books
>Fuck your fanfiction.
Fanfiction paid for by Blizzard and endorsed by Metzen.

I mean, I'm sure you'd like to throw out many of Metzen's additions to the lore over the years as well, but at what point does it stop being Warcraft and start being YOUR fanfiction?

>>46977100
>endorsed by Metzen.
Sadly the corrupted cokefiend metzen doesn't even have any legitimacy anymore when it comes to warcraft lore.
Sorry.

>>46977092
>no one cares
I do.

>>46977092
>entire questlines in vanilla are about how the orcs are harvesting lumber and destroying the forest post WC3 and the night elves keep them away.
There are questlines where the alliance kicks an old imprisoned orc in the head until he goes blind.

Ultimately those quests have about as much plot relevance as Silvershard Mines or Eye of the Storm.

I know this is pissing you off, but you know I'm telling the truth.

>>46976897
Guldan got thrown through goat legs portal and ends up in our actual dimension instead of the alternate dimension and goes off and wakes up illidan who apparently maiev kept in a jar or some shit instead of him during at the end of BC. I dont fucking know warlords was just entirely too god damned retarded plot wise.
>lmao alternate dimensions!
Not like they don't have a fuck ton of other plot points to work with, warlords was literally "filler" the expansion.

>>46977088
The entire horde storyline in Ashenvale was
>harvest more lumber from the night elves forest
and
>help the forsaken poison the barrow dens

>>46977116
You know, I feel the same way about George Lucas, but I can't sit here and pretend that my ideas for what Star Wars should have done are more legitimate than his.

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>>46977039
Thrall addresses this in the comics.

"Man I'd give anything to not have to do this, but there's no other way and it keeps those Warsong lunatics out of muh city".

After Wrynn oneshots Onyxia Thrall sets up a meeting with him to basically end the border skirmishes. Varian and Garrosh both spend the entire time talking about wiping out each other's races while Thrall, Jaina, and Anduin write up a trade agreement supplying everything the Horde needs in exchange for demilitarization and the shitload of copper and exotic animal skins in the Barrens. Meanwhile Valeera and Broll angst about being the two different types of Elves and also being a father/daughter dynamic.

Then the Twilights Hammer sends Horde race assassins to attack the Wrynns and Alliance race assassins to attack the Orcs resulting in both racial leaders yelling "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCK I'LL RAPEYOUR SPECIES TO DEATH WITH MY FULL PLATE CODPIECE CHAINSAW" and fuck off back home. But since both have the attention span of hamsters, they don't do any actual war planning and instead just sit on their ass until the Lich King, sick of nothing happening, attacks both capitals to start Wrath of the Lich King. To lure players who according to that comic series don't exist in order to make another generation of Death Knights.

It doesn't add up very well. That comic series really fucking sucked though, they made Valeera jailbait with E cups and half the time forgot to actually draw her from the waist down. It was full-anime, and gave us one of the biggest Mary Sues in fiction.

>>46977054
I don't blame em for changing that stuff for player reasons but the grills = rangers/stealthing, boys = druids/shapeshifters (with Malfurion being the exception because his class in WC3 was normally a centaur like creature) thing struck me as damn cool.

sleep for thousands of years while the girls do all the work, awww yeah

>>46977144
>>help the forsaken poison the barrow dens
Did they do that in vanilla? I've forgotten. I VAGUELY remember there being a forsaken presence in Northwestern Ashenvale near the entrance to the Felwood, but the only party I remember hiring me to poison the heart of the forest was demons.

>>46977049
It isn't Black Library though, the Warcraft books are made specifically to set up shit in the games. They're more canon than any expanded universe from any company.

>>46977168
>t. broxigar barbossa

>>46977129
Wait.

So Legion is still in the alternate dimension?

What the fuck.

>>46977004
Hey, if an alien race decided to hide out on earth without even bothering to contact us, the primary species of earth, and brought a fucking rape squad of extraterrestrial demons to earth that enslaved all of mankind to fight their extraplanar wars I bet you would call it an invasion.

Dont go giving the draenei a free pass, the entire fucking story is their god damned fault. Sure the legion may have eventually been interested in draw or or azeroth without following the draenei, but they didn't even bother finding or warning the planet inhabitants.

Goat people deserve to be genocided.

>>46977155
>varian splits into 2 clones

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Its funny how reading these mostly unfunny comics actually brings back memories about playing.

>>46977155
>gave us one of the biggest Mary Sues in fiction.
Still can't believe they're killing of Varian.

I was really hoping after all the shit he talked in Undercity and Orgrimmar that one day he'd have to back up that trash against a raid group. I'd have tanked him smiling from ear to ear and transmogged Shalamayne for giggles.

Oh well. If there's a theme to this thread it's that none of us gets what we want when it comes to Warcraft lore.

>>46977176
Whaaaat? No.

We still have to deal with Mirror Mirror Guldan, but he's in our timeline now. Our timeline's Guldan got torn apart by Murlocs or something when he opened Sarge's tomb.

>>46977176
No, alternate dimension guldan is now in the main dimension and has some how managed a full blown invasion of azeroth even though he couldn't fucking do it back in his own dimension and ow illidans going to be a good guy. Also azeroth houses a titan that has something to do with elune and sargeras is just misunderstood and not actually a bad guy from the most recent lore book. Its one giant cluster fuck.

>>46977186
They didn't warn the Orcs because the Orcs never wanted anything to do with them. The Orcs were xenophobic as fuck, its right in the lore that the two races eventually just decided to leave each other alone.

That's why Dwarfs and Humans, who barely had anything to do with each other prior to Warcraft 1, still had technology from each other but the Draenei and Orcs only had the vaguest ideas of each other's cultures and lifestyles.

If you're running from the Nazis (part of your race that's evil, but not your ethnic group) and escape into a feral jungle planet by hopping through reality to god knows where because Jesus told you, and the resident intelligent peoples flat out tell you "We don't want to ever have anything to do with you", you just settle in and try to build a new society someplace where the locals aren't already inhabiting.

Why would you warn the xenophobic tribesmen about the Nazis coming after you?

>>46977212
>his faggot son is going to become king and some dick sucking troll is leading the horde
Nobody wins. I bet this shit leads to peace.

>>46976978
>The reason it wasn't signed is because Garrosh
Nope. It was because Twilight's Hammer and you know it. As a matter of fact it WAS signed, and was only torn up (by the Alliance) because of Twilight's Hammer.

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>>46977230
So alternate Gul'dan woke up his dimensions Azeroths Illidan who had our Maev in a bottle, then went to our dimension to raise the Tomb of Sargeras?

>>46977212
No, I meant Me'dan. The son of Garona and Medivh. Who's as a result half Draenei, the grand nephew of the supreme military leader of the Alliance Draenei. Who was trained as a Mage, learned to fight as a Warrior, learned to sneak as a Rogue, is learning to be a Paladin and a Priest, is learning to be a Shaman, resisted an Old God, and was named the leader of a new Order of Tirisfal.

>>46977208

>>46977144
>help the forsaken poison the barrow dens
the horde used to be cool

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>>46977274

>>46977248
>sargeras is just misunderstood and not actually a bad guy
what if...what if sargeras is a titan...and azeroth is tartarus...and sargeras is zeus...and elune is like...athena or something.

>>46977264
>I bet this shit leads to peace.
Nope. Greymane is going to kill Sylvanas in the upcoming expansion Legion as justice for her crimes against Gilneas, and since she's warchief in the expansion that's going to fan the flames.

>>46977250
eh I guess from my perspective, fuck the tribals, on the other hand the orcs were 100% right to do whatever they could to kill space goats as well, because they are a cancerous blight upon the galaxy.

Its weird how the Alliance gets the races that are generally the highest on the "who fucked up the universe the worst" chain of events.

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>>46977264
Uncle Vol'jin is MIA last I heard.

My horde compatriots and I are under the management of the Ghost with the Most, the zombie gal you love to hate, Sylvannas "Bitch Lich" Windrunner.

I've always been a fan. I have spent untold hours on the WoW story forums defending her character traits in the past while both Horde and Alliance players swore up and down that she was pure evil and no different from the Lich King.

>>46977292
>since she's warchief in the expansion
shes basically just a stand in. if they really let a woman be full blown warchief then im fucking done, Garrosh was right.

>>46977292
How does Sylvanus become warchief? The trolls just going to go fuck it whatever sure?

>>46977313
>>46977312
Vol'jin has gone missing so she took over.

>>46977274
>No, I meant Me'dan.
Literally who?

Nah I know who Med'an is. The joke here is that he is never going to be canonically introduced into WoW. Hopefully.

They got rid of Rhonin AND Krasus though so hopes fly high!

>azeroth being invaded
>troll fucks off to go smoke weed or something

>>46977313

Vol'jin goes MIA and she assumes control.

I wish dwarves could be horde.

>>46977313
>>46977312
Sylvanas should become the minister of chemical warfare and of turning alliance races into elbowless zombie freaks.

>>46976303
Spelljammer is fuckin cool, what's the problem? D&D's always been about mixing sci fi + fantasy. Dungeons themselves are very sci fi and from a very sci fi novel.

>>46977291
I think we find out in the newest book that Azeroth is a baby Titan's egg and that Elune is his ghostly stag-fucking spirit. So even before baby Azeroth was born he was already into bestiality. Gooooood sign.

And Sargeras wants to kill him and end existence because some sort of Lovecraftian super beings from beyond space and time want to use him to make existence their bitch.

Shit's weird, yo.

>>46977293
Except you just said it yourself, the Draenei weren't to blame because they didn't do anything wrong.

The Legion destroys all worlds it comes across. The only difference is because instead of outright incinerating the world and consuming the souls of all Orcs, they decided to manipulate the Orcs so the Draenei couldn't escape.

Fuck, its even in the lore that the Draenei took special pains to preserve the souls of the Orc ancestors from the Legion. Including Grom's own father. Bear in mind Grom is the one most responsible for the Draenei genocide. That's far more than any of us would do for some filthy traitor savages going full Planet of the Apes.

All of it was Gul'dan's fault, he brought the Legion to Draenor.

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>>46977328
Metzen outright confirmed Me'dan is never going to be mentioned again.

My friend who has been playing since vanilla nonstop just realized that hellfire citadel is the same citadel from BC bus yesterday. He may be an idiot, but god damn did they do an awful job with warlords and making it relevant to BC.

>>46977366
>All of it was Gul'dan's fault, he brought the Legion to Draenor.
The Legion was aware of Draenor before they recruited Gul'dan. So they were sort of on the way before they had him bust out the portal magic.

>vanilla wow
>high fantasy staple races
>BC
>space faring goat tentacle beard fuckers with literal fucking spaceships being led by interdimensional space jesuses made of fucking light
Think we could have worked our way to that point instead of going from mid to highish fantasy to fucking space goats in space ships?

>>46977429
They wanted playable eredar

>>46977429
To be fair we already had mechs and shit in vanilla. And the orcs were aliens long before the draenei were.

>>46977442
since fucking when were orcs aliens? Getting real tired of these asspulled retcons

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>>46977435
Alliance should have gotten playable broken instead.

But broken aren't pretty enough.

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>>46977453
Since Warcraft 2? The first good Warcraft?

Back in like 1995?

Shit, the entire second half of the game is going to another planet with green water and mushrooms for trees and giant demon boards to blow up the portal the Orcs came from.

>>46977453
They're from another planet and invaded Azeroth through a space portal, dude.

>>46977471
Looks are a genuinely important part of people's interest in them.

Also it'd be easier to argue they're a different race from Archimonde etc. if they were just broken.

>>46977471

>conveniently forgetting the Forsaken's open betrayal of the last Alliance army in the region

That comic is Forsaken apologist trash.

>>46977514
I was waiting for someone to ignore the joke and pounce on something, and I figured it would be the forsaken rather than the blood elves.

>>46977514
Er... you mean with Garithos (sp?), where he tried to wipe them out first?

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>>46977471

Sometimes I wonder if Burning Crusade, as much fun as it was, was where everything went wrong.

>>46977533
exactly how much do you think broken would be honestly played? because of their makeover they're relatively popular

>>46977530

Garithos was never shown planning to betray the Forsaken and was never shown betraying them while he was allied with them. Sylvanas planned to betray him from the beginning and that was shown right after making a deal with him for his support.

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>>46977530
No, Garithos was the last leader of Lordaeron, a kingdom notorious for being the second most religious, second most sexist, and second most racist.

Stromgard was a totally different kingdom that the Forsaken wiped out. Originally the reason given was for farmland, but later Blizzard had them just plague the shit out of everything while cackling about the humans no longer being a threat.

The Forsaken then attacked Gilneas, ANOTHER human nation that has had literally nothing to do with them until this point.

>>46977564
My apologies, I thought Garithos was the one that started shit in that campaign.

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>>46977530
If we want to get technical, Garithos only allied with the Forsaken under the condition that once they retook the city the Forsaken would kindly fuck off.

Sylvanas went back on the deal first and had Garithos killed, then took the city for herself.

And now the Horde has it's very own sewer filled with Hi-C Ecto Cooler! Holla!

Poor Garithos. If the Horde could do it all over again, that would be funny.

>>46977533
In terms of lore? Thing was fucked from the start. All the retarded plot points that concluded in BC/Wrath/onward started in Vanilla.

In terms of gameplay? WOTLK was the beginning of the end. Once Blizzard put in the dungeon finder and removed a lot of the more tedious game elements like weapon skills and attunements it was a downward spiral of making the game more convenient for convenience's sake and now we have a Farmville clone we pay 15$/mo to play.

Now don't get me wrong - attunements were fucking annoying and weapon skills were even worse, and they definitely needed to fucking go - just removing them put the idea in Blizzard's head that they should always strive to make the game more convenient to play instead of better, and they went way too far with it.

>>46977558

They could have made female Broken sexy and they would have been just as popular without the herpy derp retcon.

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>>46977533
As much as I wish we'd gotten TFT draenei instead of the space goats, I have to admit that I still quite like the BC Draenei.

I'm a sucker for battered and bruised noblebright characters who remain unflappable, in the face of their darkest hour and the space goats basically embody that to a T.

>>46977575

Garithos started shit against the Blood Elves.

Which, mind you, Sylvanas had no knowledge of and it didn't factor into why she betrayed him & wiped out his forces.

>>46977514
Okay, you stupid little nigger, first of all the "last Alliance army" in the region was led by this shit head on the left. Do you really think this shit head could've kept Lordaeron going? He was literally the mental sex slave of a Deathlord before Sylvanas rescued his stupid ass, and then he had the gall to tell her forces (who are natives of Lordaeron just like Garithos's) to leave. What a fucking shithead, where exactly are an undead Lordaeron army going to go, Quel'Thalas? So she killed this shit head on the left so that her people, who had a rightful claim to Lordaeron, could stay.

Do you really think this dumbass represented the Alliance's interests in Lordaeron? Fucking really? He's probably the entire reason why the Sin'dorei joined the Horde which was a critical loss for the Alliance because they're fuck-tarded and don't know how to do magic. I mean name one iconic warcraft mage who is human, other than Khadgar, Medivh, Nielas Aran, Jaina Proudmoore, Aegwynn, Antonidas, Rhonin, Modera, and Kel'Thuzad.

>>46977571
Now, on the one hand, you're absolutely right: The Forsaken are complete assholes.

On the other hand, you're being quite disingenuous. You know your lore, and you know why the Forsaken have beef with the returning Lordaeron survivors, Stromgarde and especially Gilneas. You may not think their reasons have merit, but you know it's not so simple as thinking they're attacking humans that had nothing to do with anything.

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>>46977627
Shit this nigger is so ugly I didn't even post him like I was supposed to.

>>46977646
AH! A MOAI! It's going to hex us!

>>46977641
What was their beef with Stromgarde?

>>46977664
Allying with Stormwind and supporting the returning survivors of Lordaeron is enough for the Forsaken to want them out of the way. But it wasn't the Forsaken that fucked them up to begin with, and now that Galen has been risen into undeath, the Forsaken would like to make a friendly ally of Stromgarde so they can persecute the filthy cowards together as one big happy zombie family.

>>46977595
This.

I love the Draenei. Design, lore, all of it.

Honestly, I just can't do MMOs anymore. Once I got my first real full-time job, that was it. Its odd, somehow I was able to do two part-times and go to college and play WoW on top of having a social life outside of the game. I have no fucking clue how I managed now.

I'd love for them to do something like a Bethesda game, some single player game. But I just can't grind.

>>46977571
>>46977641

I don't know man. The Forsaken really are the GIBSMEDAT faction. Okay, I can see why they wouldn't fuck off and let the survivors or their literal living relatives move back in but holy shit everything south of Silverpine forest they should keep their hands off of. Do they really like acting like the Scourge? The force that fucked their shit up in 50 ways in the first place? Do they get off on finishing the job? Is it a crabs in a bucket thing about not being a walking human corpse?

>>46977705
Thing is, the Forsaken have no longterm goal except killing everyone now.

Back when they were against the Lich King they were sympathetic, front lines against an unwinnable war. Dealing with foes from the back as well.

But then it was made quite clear their only goal was to own all of the Eastern Kingdoms with absolutely no attempt at justification.

>>46977726
>Is it a crabs in a bucket thing about not being a walking human corpse?
yea actually. if you play undead or do UC quests they all make it very clear they can't stand their current situation, and don't give a flying fuck what happens to their living relatives.

>>46977627

>He's probably the entire reason why the Sin'dorei joined the Horde which was a critical loss for the Alliance

Considering Quel'thalas as a whole abandoned the Alliance at the conclusion of the Second War, the Alliance didn't lose anything other than 'potential friends'. Including what we know happens later on in the series, Blood Elves can be considered fairweather friends at best and scheming traitors in waiting at worst. They were about to abandon the Horde entirely while some of their agents undermined Dalaran's neutrality. Kael'thas opted to side with the Legion for personal power & glory.

The Elves who had any sense of duty to the Alliance had stayed and defied Anasterian's and the Conclave's wishes. They're the ones who make up the remaining pockets of High Elves in the Alliance today. Blood Elves don't have that. They're the Elves who left the Alliance fully content with not giving a shit about the blood shed to defend their Kingdom by Humans and other members of the Alliance of Lordaeron. They can fuck off and keep sucking Forsaken dick.

>>46977726
I would assume you continue making more forsaken because you are worried that somebody is going to come along and genocide the fuck out of you if you don't have enough people to defend with, which, obviously, is a viable concern.

Then you rationalize that you don't have to worry about that at all if everyone's undead. Its the only logical step to take.

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>>46974308

>>46977726
The Forsaken see it as justified anger at the survivors for bailing on their loved ones and then, once the heats off, they come crawling back to the lands they fled trying to make new lives for themselves while simultaneously displacing the Forsaken that remained and were turned into the living dead during the invasion.

Gilneas literally stonewalled Lordaeron and forsook its people to protect itself from the scourge.

Basically anybody not dumb enough to get the fuck out of the way is on their eternal shit list. They see themselves as having weathered the storm Arthas brought down on them, and that makes them the only ones worthy of inheriting the land now that the scourge is gone.

All this while many races do not believe the undead have any right to continue living, much less inheriting any land. This includes a good number of humans and various races including some Horde races.

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>>46977657
What in the Light's name did you just fucking say about me, you feeble wretch? I’ll have you know that I was the foremost rider of the Lordaeron Cavalry and that I’ve been involved in numerous sieges against Blackrock strongholds, and have over 300 confirmed honor kills. I am level 12 with two ranks of Additional Stats and I’m the top marksman in the entire Alliance remnant militia. You are nothing to me but just another creep with a Ring of Protection +1. I will trample you with precision the likes of which has never been witnessed before in all of the Eastern Kingdoms mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with posting that shit on a Quillboar cave paintings discussion board? Think again, orcspawn. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Ravenholdt spies across the mountains of Alterac and your favorite afk spot is being located right now so you better prepare for the storm, whelp. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime thanks to my Scroll of Town Portal, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my Orb of Fire. Not only am I extensively trained in mounted combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Tyr's Hand and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable arse off the face of this realm, you little shit. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you're out of supplies and need more farms, you goddamn imbecile. I will shit the fury of the storm all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, Windrunner.

>>46977781
Jesus fucking Christ thank god that abomination is stillborn.
>lmao its wow with slight everquest influence!
Everquest is so dead its not even funny. Fuck this is like digging up a corpse and putting a funny hat on it, taking a picture, and then burying it after you take a shit in the coffin.

>>46977781
Devil's Advocate time: the top is Elmore, who also did a lot of Dragonlance and Mystara art, etc. etc. its literally ONE guy providing the iconic look for 3 different fantasy settings, good artists don't grow on trees

>>46977726
>Do they really like acting like the Scourge?
Yes, that's a conversation that's had quite a few times and the answer is always basically "Yes, but with our own free will".
>The force that fucked their shit up in 50 ways in the first place?
Once they die they pretty much just shrug at their living life.
The inkeeper in Brill was the head of the Scarlet Crusade forces against the Forsaken. She killed so many Blood Elves and Forsaken she got a Forsaken and Blood Elf who's families she'd killed on her ass, which she responded to by killing them too and planning to use their bodies as a warning to others that they would not be stopped until Sylvanas personally shot her nephew, her forces, and filled her full of arrows before raising her as a Forsaken for full irony. Her response is pretty much just to tell her life story to any Scarlet Crusaders that get captured for test subjects, so they'll know the same irony she did.

Then you have a few quests like "Go get my husband's ring, he died saving us from the Scourge but since he died that means he's a weak fuck that doesn't deserve jewelry."
>Do they get off on finishing the job?
Some do. There's that one mad scientist who lobotomized his niece, blinded her, and forces her to walk around barefoot in the Undercity delivering his mail.
>Is it a crabs in a bucket thing about not being a walking human corpse?
For a small number, according to their dialogue, yes.

Honestly its only a small minority of Forsaken who aren't complete assholes, and mostly because they wound up as True Neutral in the Argent Dawn/Crusade. Like Bartholomew, and that mad scientist. Or Arthas's sister.

>>46977785
>Basically anybody not dumb enough to get the fuck out of the way is on their eternal shit list
Oops. I meant the opposite of that.

Anyone not so dumb as to get run over by the scourge, all those that did get out of the way, are on the Forsaken's eternal shit list.

They forsook those that remained in Lordaeron by leaving.

They forsook them further by coming back and trying to take back the lands they abandoned.

They forsook them by hiding behind a giant fuckoff wall while the scourge murderfucked everyone.

And now those zombies are PISSED.

Do they have the right to be angry? To think they can hog Lordaeron to themselves and tell the returning survivors to fuck off? To be mad at Gilneas for not being retarded? I doubt many people here think so. But that is their reasoning.

>>46977764
Are you really shocked that the elves are continually leery of their allegiance to humanity after their kingdom was wiped out by a traitorous prince and their remnants were used as suicide fodder by Garithos?

>They're the Elves who left the Alliance fully content with not giving a shit about the blood shed to defend their Kingdom by Humans and other members of the Alliance of Lordaeron.

YA MEAN DA KINGDOM THAT WAS DECIMATED BY A HUMAN DEATH KNIGHT, A HUMAN MAGE, AND AN ARMY OF HUMAN UNDEAD? YA MEAN DAT ONE?

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>>46977781
Ouch.

It honestly looks like a poor quality rip of Warcraft's style. Like, I'll admit that I love Warcraft's over designed cheesecake schtick, but that picture is just... not very good. They took Warcraft and sapped the color out of it. Why would you do that?

>>46977856
Yeah actually the top one is from EverQuest and preceded the other one.

>>46977837

>Elves abandoned the Alliance decades prior to any of that shit happening
>using that as justification

kill yourself.

>>46977856
That's actually what the team behind everquest next thought was an improvement over the originals art. Thank god somebody fucking somebody woke up and pulled the plug on it.

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>>46977873
I know. I'm saying that the newer picture looks like a straight rip from Warfraft's style, but with muted colors and less detail, which are the two major components that make Warcraft's style work.

The older picture is absolutely beautiful though. Elmore is (or was?) a fucking master at his craft.

>>46977890
Uh oh, you don't know your lore! The Elves weren't really in the Alliance in the first place, they reluctantly agreed to help the humans with their war against the Horde because of Lothar, and after Lothar died and the war was over, they withdrew their allegiance because they didn't feel it was necessary anymore and they were disappointed because the humans were dipshits that burnt down half of Eversong forest.

They didn't abandon anything, they had no real stake in the Alliance on the first place and even despite that they did their part and offered support. They were paid back by a human prince completely destroying their entire kingdom.

The elves are not obligated to be in the Alliance, but I would say the humans are obligated not to permanently wreck their homeland and murder their people.

>>46977890
...what? The order of events were:
1. The human king invades the elves so a ghost HE MADE can pee in their pool.
2. Literally zero humans show up in Quel'thalas's final hour of need to help against their own crop of bad apples.
3. Elves retardedly stick with the humans, who failed to defend them from their own bad elements, but are expected to be content, forever, with their dwindling race being used as cannon fodder by a leader who absolutely despises them.

>>46977968
>>46977969

>I don't know what the Second War is: The Post: The Game: The Movie

>>46977969
Oh no, you got it wrong, it's

1. The elves helped the humans in their darkest hour against the Horde, at great loss to themselves partially due to incompetent human leadership.
2. The human king invades the elves so a ghost HE MADE can pee in their pool.
3. Literally zero humans show up in Quel'thalas's final hour of need to help against their own crop of bad apples.
4. Elves retardedly stick with the humans, who failed to defend them from their own bad elements, but are expected to be content, forever, with their dwindling race being used as cannon fodder by a leader who absolutely despises them.

>>46977890
There wasn't even a reason for the alliance to exist at that point.
"Oh woe is me Quel'thalas who I've had tense relations with for years doesn't join my little empire club in peace time when no threat exists"

Literally every adult elf alive at the start of wc3 is probably older than the king of Lordaeron, why are they getting the leadership again?

>>46977968
>>46977969
What?

Anasterian agreed to help lothar because of the blood thing, and largely did nothing UNTIL the horde went ahead and burned down parts of quel'thalas and killed the male windrunners.

Then after the war was over, he withdrew from the alliance because of the internment act bullshit.

A few elves arrived to investigate the shit that happened at the start of Wc3 because of reasons.

The elves used the humans and fucked off back to their forests

>>46973336
>trying to insult using age
I cast detect faggotry.. damn, I'm stunned

>>46977987
The elven participation through the second war is literally "elves stick it to the very end even when they don't have to", the Quel'thalas part of the campaign is literally maps 1-3 in wc2.

>>46978023
What the shit?