Wuxia art

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Wuxia!

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>I'm going to be starting a Legends of Wulin campaign soon
I'm jealous as fuck, OP. Could you provide us a rundown of the characters?

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>>46942066
We're going to start the campaign with session zero, during which we make the characters, so they have yet to be made.

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I'll dump some pics from my LotW folder. I love the game, and it's always good to have more useful reference images.

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Posting Xiongu, in case they ever come up.

>tfw no one in my group will ever go for something like this

All I want to do is be a master tactician with a bit of a drinking problem and a mastery of drunken boxing.

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>>46942090
Dang, my group's nothing like that. Our current campign won't be over for months and yet we're discussing characters we plan to play in the D&D campaign we're going to do once it's done, and some other shorter campaigns we plan to do. I don't know if we'll ever get around to that "classic heroes of Western literature but as Wulin" campaign...

>>46942633
>nice sui
>wide lapels
The 90s called, it wants it's suit back.

>>46943174
This is exceedingly interesting.

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>>46943296
Yeah, it was part of a much larger dump that I foolishly did not save the entirety of.

>>46943344
Feel bad, because you are bad.

>>46943096
>>46943158
>>46943174
>>46943213

Anon these are gold! Thanx a lot

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>>46943536
Yeah, I know. Don't remind me.

>>46943213
Isn't Korean clothing always having pants a RELATIVELY modern thing, due to the government mandating that women can't wear skirts or dresses?

>>46943602
Alright, as long as you display the proper remorse for the quality of your error.

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>>46943296
>>46943344
http://lilsuika.deviantart.com/gallery/

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Please /tg/ I'm already turning into a chinaboo don't corrupt me any further.

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>>46943642
Thankfully, reverse-searching the images will turn up most of the content in the dump.

Why is it that every villain seems to be some bureaucratic eunuch?

>>46943833
Nobody likes bureaucrats and nobody likes eunuchs.

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>>46943833
Because you can't say the emperor is bad, so when there's some corruption that goes beyond the local ministers you need to pin it on someone manipulating the emperor.

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>>46943833
Because a lot of the villains were bureaucratic eunuchs. Half the reason the Ming dynasty fell apart was because of eunuchs basically taking control of the government.

As well, for hundreds of years China based things off of Confucian values, with a lot of respect for educated scholars and tradition. This promoted stability, but also left a lot of room for corruption that would honestly make things pretty shitty. Military secrets, however, were far more closely guarded, and outside forces like Mongols taking over was actually fairly rare.

>>46943833
Because of that one time in history they usurped all the practical power and ran the country into the ground, also >>46943893

>>46943947
>This promoted stability, but also left a lot of room for corruption that would honestly make things pretty shitty.
This.
In Confucian practice, you CAN NOT rebuke an elder, no matter how much a fuck up they are, unless you take it to a power over them.

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>>46943985
Yeah, and imagine when the elders are all members of the court! It's nearly impossible to counteract them. Beijing was a crazy city in some ways - you know how coruscant in Star Wars is a planet devoted entirely to government stuff? Beijing is like that. So you have all these people, many of them admittedly classically educated and not unintelligent, but often partially or completely unaware of the situation in the rest of China, let alone the world. So you have corrupt court officials mixed up with well-meaning nobles behind the times. There were a lot of 'powers behind the throne' and such, like Dowager Cixi. And on top of that, most of the time people just trusted the government as long as there wasn't much strife.

A less drastic example I can think of is Kang Youwei. He was a Chinese guy in the late 19th century who learned a lot about Europe and wanted to modernize China. He published a few books, had a protest, but the court wouldn't listen to him because he wasn't of high enough status. He had to pass the rest of the three-tier exam system (he had passed the first two exams before) to get to the level of status that the court had to listen. Of course it turned out the Emperor loved it, but there was a conservative backlash to the 100 days reform he proposed, and then things fucked up from there.

>>46944150
I just want to nut on her.
All over her face, watch it drip into her cleavage and stain her expensive robes.

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>>46944356
You better step your game up then, because scoring with a woman of social and political status is no easy feat.

>>46944378
Is that a man or a woman?

And don´t tell me "yes".

>>46944406
Alright.

No.

>>46944406
Probably

>>46944392
My game is stronk, anon, you don't even know.
>>46944406
Maybe so.

>>46944475
>>46944485
>>46944476
You three...

My fault for specifying it. You win, anons...

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>>46944406
Possibly.

>>46944392
>haughty, stuck up look
>sneers at me
Oh yeah, it's getting there.

>>46942633
You know, a "modern Wuxia" flick sounds like it might be kind of cool.

Is all magic martial arts?

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>>46944618
the girl with the tea set is really cute

>>46944659
Any sufficiently advanced martial art is indistinguishable from magic.

>>46944659

Nope. Kung fu, at least theoretically, is entirely natural regardless of how it looks or manifests. It's just an expression of your Chi, which is a fundamental part of you, as natural as life itself.

Daoist sorcery, by contrast, is explicitly supernatural, doing things beyond and aside from Kung fu.

>>46944704
So if your kung fu allows you to spit fire, glow like the sun, and broil things with a glare... Why would anyone learn wizardry?
What would separate the two?

>>46944659
and all martial arts is magical.

I cannot say with certainty, but this is as I understand: Eastern Martial arts as we tend to know it today derives from the teachings and exercises of master Buddhist Monk Bodhidharma. His belief was that for enlightenment to be attained, one needed a sharp mind AND a strong body and thus trained the monks to get them into shape. (thus "kung fu" meaning "hard work")

Tied to this was various beliefs about how Enlightenment tended to grant esoteric powers, such as Bodhidharma famously boring holes into a rock with his intense stare. A lot of it though also probably draws from older beliefs about divinity.

So, at some point, magic and martial arts got interconnected in Eastern belief.

The gulf also might stem from Europe's largely Christian influence. Magic is the work of satan and satan's power is merely illusions, thus, those who practice magic cannot possibly be strong, because only the power of god is strong.

This is despite Odin being basically the Ur-Magical Warrior. (though I guess older religions with magic/warrior gods tended to do their more magical feats while disguised as fragile, old beggers)

This is all just based though on my limited knowledge and is basically from my ass.

China was a godly culture before the Gommunists

Where does the Nippon wanking come from?

>>46944801
>This is despite Odin being basically the Ur-Magical Warrior.
There is a reason the Norse belief was wiped out, anon.
>>46944809
>thick
>Thick
>THICK GODDAMN

>>46944814
Japanese lore and history is just as outside the expected norm compared to European standards, and is far more exported to other nations.

>>46941378
Thats gorgeous.

>>46944814
China is somewhat insular, Japan has become extroverted to the West. I think that's the gist of it.

I think.

>>46944835
>There is a reason the Norse belief was wiped out, anon.
I know, but I don't see how Odin multi-classing factors into it.

>>46944868
Well, alright, I'll bust it down for you.
Odin was king dickslapper not because he was the strongest (that was Thor) or the most clever (that was Loki) or had the best magic (that was the King of the Elves).
He had all of them, and was second best at all of them, on top of having Foresight rivaling the best of the Vanir that the Aesir lacked as a whole (fun fact: Heimdal the guardian is thought to have been a Vanir absorbed into the Aesir ranks when the Aesir won their war).
There was nothing he could not do, despite being lame as hell due to the process of getting baller..

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>>46944814
It was a godly country before Christ. Then it was just okay. Basically another Greece.

Wow I never realized how white wuxia tends to be.

>>46944915
Well, to round it out, it's greatly suspected that Norse is what we know it because the monks who recorded Norse faith injected heavy amounts of Christian symbolism into it.
Thus, Loki became a Satan analogue, Odin became a Christ analogue, Ragnarok became the End Times before the reborn Paradise for Adam and Eve, etc.
They basically warped Norse faith, and it was absorbed, diluted, and forgotten.

>>46944636
so I'm curious, what would be the difference between a "modern Wuxia" and your typical Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan/Jet Li/*Martial Arts Movie Star of choice here* kung fu movie set in the modern day?

>>46944760
There's no wizardry. Only martial arts.

>>46945727

Blossom Harvest plus Heaven's Lightning?

>>46944659
Not all of it, but a lot of it is. Look at the Boxers - they thought that with enough discipline they could resist bullets and do all sorts of magical feats.

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>All this Japanese stuff
>All those white people
>All those half-naked people
Weren't we going for wuxia?

>>46943720
Holy shit...

It's like a literal illustration from a campaign I was once playing. Literally everything matches, even th moment itself

>>46944926
Anon, Chinese peak took place during Song dynasty. That's from 10th to 12th century AD. Hardly times before Christ.
But then Mongols came in and the country never truly regained it's former status. Sure, Ming dynasty was still powerful (most of the time at least), but it was just a pale shadow of former glory combined with cultural stagnation. Then Manchus grinded the country to the ground, hand-to-hand with ultra-reactionary Confucian literati.
Actually, the literati alone would grind it down, because ever since Mongols came in, there was not a single reform to adress the increasingly fossilized Confucian canon, not to mention Mongol invasion stopped the reforming aspect of neo-confucianism, since suddenly tradition became super important as a cultural identity against the invaders and their dynasty.

How to screw a great empire? Well, make sure tradition is more important than anything else.

>>46945110
Given Wuxia tends to have lots of stylization and beauty to things, mostly just that the cities look pretty and nice unless controlled by a badguy where it's BRUTALISM out of nowhere.

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>>46944814
China was awesome, then it was okay, then it turned into a dying backwater that got into the modernization game too late. It's only by a little historical luck and endurance that they're still around today instead of getting carved up or conquered.

Japan opened up far more quickly than China, and was a bit more of a world power. After WW2, Japan and the US ended up having close relations and becoming an economic leader where China ended up losing all of its allies outside of Yugoslavia and struggling to really grow as a power. So not only did America - arguably the cultural capital of the world for the last half-century at least - have a close relationship with Japan and be influenced somewhat by its culture, but Japan's culture was more easily spread than China's for several decades. It's much easier to wank Japan and its cool tech than China and its...wall?

No offense meant to China - I honestly love China, since it has a very interesting history and shows how you can fuck up but still end up with something great - but it's just been on the back foot for so long, and in many ways it still is.

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>>46946224

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>>46946252

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>>46946249
>Pretends to be familiar with Chinese history
>Serves up bullshit so powerful Hollywood history starts to look well-researched by comparison

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>>46946147
I would actually argue that the Ming dynasty was actually pretty great. It was a bit more progressive and even began to introduce some elements of capitalism and industry that would've put China on more equal footing with the rising nations in Europe, but unfortunately that cultural backlash you mentioned came into play, since tradition and ideas about society were just too powerful. Then the dynasty collapsed and the Manchu came in, who were far more conservative and trying to 'preserve' China in some ways. They weren't bad, but they lingered and caused China to miss its real chance at modernization. It wasn't until Kang Youwei in the late 19th century that you'd see some real neo-Confucianism, and him talk about Confucius not as a traditionalist but a reformer.

In some ways, it was just out of their hands - if the Ming hadn't collapsed, they probably wouldn't have pushed on into reform anyway. If the Manchu hadn't taken over and started up the conservative Qing Empire, then China would've split into a bunch of squabbling territories. And who knows what would have happened if the democracy in 1912 had lasted longer, or if the Nationalists had had a few more decades to prepare for war against Japan, or if the North had been hit harder than the South? It turns into a bunch of what ifs.

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>>46946435
I should clarify - by traditions and ideas about society being too powerful, I mean that Chinese society just wasn't open to the idea of a middle class at that point in time. I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but there wasn't this idea of gathering capital and making money as an end goal. I'd have to check some books.

>>46946435
Anon, Ming was absolutely and completely stagnant culturaly. NOTHING was going to reverse the effects of Mongolian invasion. Especially not clinging with all your might to "muh tradition", eunuchs going rampant (which you mentioned as something good) and generally shooting dead in the water anything that could even remotely change the course. It's pretty "standard" for decaying societies to go all into self-indulgence mode, which Ming dynasty did for sure.
But science, reforms and chances to change anything died somewhere in early 13th century, when Song dynasty was on its last leg.

I know how it sounds in the net, but I wrote a fucking Licentiate about this and I'm on my way with Masters.

And about squabbling territories - I'm not sure you are aware how large, pre-modern agrarian empires are governed. Roughtly 1/4 of Ming and about 1/3 of Qing China wasn't even governed for real and locals doing as they pleased, as long as taxes were being paid on time.
Not to mention how China is the "reverse Rome" - loose standards set locally, but strong overall cultural idendity, allowing it to go through two foreign dynasties, FOUR periods of feudal anarchy and squibbling nations and in the end always coming back as singular entity.

>>46946525
Maybe because not all societies are following early modern West European vitues of getting rich, personally.

It's not that hard to figure out, anon. You just need to stop thinking about social development as something linear and universal for all cultures all over the world.

>>46944926
Haha no

China peaked during the Song/Tang period

Everybody was sucking their dicks, from Persians to Vietnamese to Manchurians to Tibetans

Japan and Korea went out of their way to be more like China

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>>46946692
I never mentioned eunuchs going rampant as being a good thing - it was honestly one of the things that helped tear the Ming dynasty apart, and left it too weak to deal with its internal strife, especially after the drain on resources that was their intervention in Japan's invasion of Korea.

...And, I'm honestly going to have to apologize. I got mixed up on the dynasties and dates before checking back over my sources - if you're familiar with William McNeill's The Pursuit of Power, I'd mistaken events from the 11th and 12th centuries for having taken place in the 16th and 17th. The capitalistic ideas that I was making reference to happened during the Song dynasty, not the Ming.

>>46947042
>ideas that I was making reference to happened during the Song dynasty, not the Ming.
Which was my original point. It was always worse after the collapse of Song. The exam system turned into stiff memorizing of classics, the fiscal reform wasn't finished, the monopolies were strenthened and neo-confucian "reform" never had time to truly start, before it was taken over by traditionalists

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>>46946729
I never said that I thought that way. I just am not familiar enough with the specifics myself to make any strong statements on what things were actually like. Still, to quote a source I'm basing this information on that I've just checked,

>Yet the vigorous pursuit of private advantage in the marketplace, especially when it allowed upstart individuals to accumulate conspicuous amounts of wealth, ran counter to older Chinese values. Morevoer, tehse traditional values were firmly and effectually institutionalized by the government. Officials, recruited by examination based on the Confucian classics, habitually looked askance at the more flamboyant expressions of the commercial spirit.

>>46944760
I actually know the answer to this.
Like >>46944801 says, it's partially philosophical/cultural, but one thing I note is this: when it comes to kungfu, once you learn a special skill you cannot "extrapolate" new uses of the skill.
You know a kungfu skill that lets you make ice? Well unless it has higher forms you haven't learned yet that allows you to control water you'll never actually learn that despite in our eyes it's a related skill. And if your skill only allows you to make a limited quantity of ice, no matter how good you get that's all you're getting no matter how great your internal energy does.

Meanwhile learning magic (which only happens when you explicitly loose your humanity and become Shen, an Immortal) lets you do basically ANYTHING.
Like, kungfu has limitations and rules and without access to teachers and manuals you aren't getting any better (as part of the Chinese belief that everything has a place in the cosmic order and skill is bestowed by elder authorities), but when you know magic you basically become a reality-altering demigod of sorts.

>>46945120
Not quite right, but you are correct in that you just can't go learn some shit and be a Wizard.
That comes entirely from Western Hermeticism, which has no real parrallels in China.

>>46944801
>Europe's largely Christian influence. Magic is the work of satan and satan's power is merely illusions, thus, those who practice magic cannot possibly be strong, because only the power of god is strong.

People in medieval western europe believed that kings were magic thanks to their divine right to rule, and could cure diseases touching the sick.

>>46944814
There were weebs before them, but Kurosawa and Miyazaki are the ones "to blame".

>>46947847
That's not actually true?
By the time the medieval period had even settled in western Europe was mostly LONG since Christianized, though the religion didn't look the way it does today admittedly.

But you're kinda right in that Western Hermticism actually heavily incorporates Christian imagery into it's beliefs.
Actually the myth of Hermes Trismagestus and the Tabula Samaragda is one of my favorite esoteric stories.

>>46947939
>There are people who thing Christian = not being superstitious
Anon, on scale from one to Trump, how retarded are you?

>>46947939
There was a time when religion and science and magic all walked hand in hand. Early scientists were in some ways considered close to wizards. The study of the world was less the science we know of today, but more figuring out how God made things work.

>>46947939
>That's not actually true?

But it fucking is. How can someone try to discuss western medieval history without knowing Marc Bloch's works? I'm not even talking about having read him, but at least know that he existed and the title of his most famous book. Look for the thaumaturgic kings (maybe the english translation changed the name though).

>>46947939
Yes, and kings weren't "healing" scrofula with their magical touch

Please tell me you are just baiting

>>46947682
Really? I thought East Asians believed in Taoist wizards and Buddhist Mystics?

>>46948545
Daoist Wizards aren't "people who study knowledge and then get superpowers".
Rather it's about eating a special diet and living life a certain way until you understand the Dao enough that you ascend to a higher state of existence, becoming a Daoist Immortal, whereupon you get superpowers.
In addition Daoist guys often learn kungfu (TONS of characters in wuxia use martial arts based on Daoist principles).
Buddhism is more about being super one with the Buddah until you become a Bodhistativa (which is sorta like a Christian Saint, vaguely speaking) at which point you're an Immortal again which gives you superpowers.

Knowledge itself isn't part of what makes you Shen in Chinese mythology, it was more about behavior and mental attitude. Knowledge usually DOES help with kungfu though; "gifted" kungfu students are rarely ever stupid (with one notable exception) and most are usually highly intelligence because the smarter you are the quicker you can grasp the inner fundamental philosophies of the martial arts taught to you and possibly even practice new forms of it by doing so.

That's why such characters are sometimes called "geniuses"; they usually mean that in a literal sense.

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>>46948658
WARNING also not wuxia

>>46948751
Mind you Daoist Immortals and Buddhist Bodishativas are NOT supposed to be common at all; it's something you spend literally your entire life learning to become, and even then most people still fail at achieving that enlightened state.

>>46948835
Ah

>>46948751
So, where does the chi/ki tradition come from?

>>46949003
Western pop-cultural re-interpretation of completely unrelated things.

>>46949003
>>46949085
It's a physical thing, not a spiritual thing.
Magic is a SPIRITUAL discipline practiced by higher beings like gods and demons.
Qi literally just means "breath" and that's what it's supposed to be; breathing exercises that increase your body's internal energy reserves. Over time what this does has been massively exaggerated, but that's always still the same in Wuxia fiction at least.

All human beings have a Dianten a "Qi Center", which is like a metaphysical/actual muscle somewhere in our abdomen and by improving your Dianten you improve your qi circulation (an important concept in martial arts) which improved literally every part of your baseline health she functions and can grant you special abilities if you control it properly. Having your breathing disrupted or suffering internal injuries or massive blood loss can actually disrupt your qi circulation to the point of crippling or killing you as your body cannot circulate qi anymore properly.
Improving your Dianten can be done in many ways but takes a LOT of effort and a lifetime of training which is why kungfu students always seem to start as small children with some very rare exceptions and why older kungfu masters are usually better unless they get lazy and rest in their laurels instead of improving.

There was a quest in here awhile back that had a pastebin that explained a lot of the weird internal logic of wuxia.
http://pastebin.com/KZhsJX1G

>>46943833

eunchs were allowed to get power at the price of castration. so they were really the only ones in a position of power besides the emperors relatives who were generally kept under pretty close watch.

>>46949325
>http://pastebin.com/KZhsJX1G
Thanks, bro.

>>46944814

China spent like 300 years getting assfucked by europe and japan spent the same time resisting the west.

Opium etc.

Thats really all there is too it anon. Japan stronk china was the sick man of asia.

>>46949449
Not a problem, seeing as I wrote the thing.

So what are some good wuxia stories?

>>46949554
Nice. It's going to help me with a character of mine, I think

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>>46945120
Japan has super wizards. Yin & Yang with elements out the wazoo.

>>46950032
Onmyodo is a LOT more similar to Western Hermeticism in philosophy and even origins, being a mix of religion and (what passes for) science and rigorous learning and mental discipline, and Hermeticism is a heavy influence in the thematic ideas of D&D Wizards in that once you study the right shit you learn superpowers.

>>46943742
DFO

>>46949812
There's a LOT of good wuxia stories, but most aren't in English.
That said you can find subbed wuxia series on YouTube if you can get past the fact that most are basically soap opera melodrama with kungfu attached.

Jin Yong's Condor Hero Trilogy is basically the LotR of Wuxia, so pretty much anything written by him or based off his works is pretty good inspiration.

>>46950165
Sweet thanks.

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I've been told that onmyodo originally came to Japan from China. I guess it didn't take though.

>>46950664
Basically

>>46950664
It's a combination of the local beliefs as well as Daoism from China imported in the Heian Period thanks to the heavy cultural trade between Tang Dynasty China and the Heian Period.

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>>46945110

Go watch Man of Taichi and What Price Survival.

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Suppose you were making a 1-shot adventure for Legends of the Wulin to try to get some normie nerds actually playing this system.

What are some of the prime themes, character archetypes, and scenery would you try to use to try to help normies start to wrap their heads around wuxia? What would you say are the most "understandable" themes that can more easily click with laypeople than the nuances of Daoism or the tenants of Buddhism?

>>46942486
I need more of this.

Mountain landscapes with these sorts of buildings are not only my fetish, but what I need in game for my current campaign.

>>46954160
You were all trained by the same master, now he was killed by his rival and the scrolls containing his lessons were stolen.

Avenge him.

>>46954160
>noble heroes from all social classes
>they fight evil, be it a local bully or corrupt governments
>Kung fu masters, monks, warriors, princesses, thieves, beggars, merchants, healers, craftsmen, priests, etc are all trappings of fantastic Zongguo
>An ideal wuxia story has intricate relationships of honor, love, loyalty, and even hate between people
>Government officials will mostly be corrupt, lazy, incompetent, or unjust. Hence the need for Xia to solve problems with force, only with the code of chivalry holding them in check. They often must live as outlaws, righting wrongs wherever they go.
>There's probably gonna be an evil martial arts academy or teacher dedicated to pumping out assholes for various purposes
>Putting down very powerful enemies is tragic because the world has lost a very talented individual who made the poor choice to do evil
>Bros often become "sworn brothers" after going through deep shit together
>For some odd reason a baddie grabbing a girl by the wrist often magically turns her into a helpless crying damsel
>Edgy brooding heroes may sometimes kill an innocent in a fit of angst, cue more brooding
>Highly dangerous forbidden techniques often come at the price of using up insane deadly amounts of your own chi
>Loyalty is always tested, ALWAYS. Whether it's between a parent and a lover, or a friend vs social superior. Confucianism says its okay to kill yourself to escape choosing. Great drama fuel. Think Byakuya from bleach being caught between loyalty to his parents wishes and those of his wife.
>Bad girls nearly always turn good after getting thrashed by the hero and cured with chivalrous dick
>Betraying your master nearly always makes you the BBEG, you don't fuck with social piety in magical Asia
>Evil eunuchs, no more needs to be said
>The emperor is ALWAYS the good guy, but his advisors keep important shit from him which could be sorted out easily otherwise

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>>46948812
Oh /u/

>>46954825

>Lots of villains seek immortality for all the wrong reasons
>Cutting your hair (or refusing to cut it) has enormous importance
>Shounen tier training arcs where the hero learns the "super secret dangerous badass ultimate technique of destiny" in a week when it allegedly takes decades
>You have to master both body and mind to use "magic". Not in the book learnin western sense either.
>Old masters often become lonely due to their sheer level of skill. They might train the youngins to be their sparing partners. Evil masters may act out their genius loneliness by picking fights with some strong youth to train him into their "equal"
>Evil pupils are a good source of action too
>Wuxia is VERY idealistic and light hearted, take your game of shit elsewhere
>Tsunderes are everywhere, bonus points if they use fighting a hero as an excuse to get close to him
>Monsters are pretty much the pets of the gods left to go feral
>dragons are benevolent water gods and can play a role like LOTR eagles

>>46955067
Kek

Hoppin chi vampires

>>46955638
Why is this allowed?

>>46941083
C-can I join your campaign?

I wanna play LoTW

>>46949491
>Being this tier uneducated
Both resisted the west for about two centuries, simply by locking the country and setting up strict regulations about trade with outsiders, which reduced contact to bare minimum.
It wasn't until 1830s when Europeans became powerful enough and pushy enough to even TRY to fight for their interests.
The real difference is that Japan was forcibly opened by what would later be known as gunboat diplomacy and series of unfair deals. China was opened by getting it ass kicked in Opium Wars, because nobody was negotiating at this point. In case of China, both Europeans and Manchus fucked up big time entire period between 1770s up to First Opium War. Mostly because how absolutely arrogant both sides were toward each other and how haughty everyone felt about it.

Then, when China was already butt-fucked, Japanese realised if they won't do what is called "defensive westernisation", they are going to be next. Hence they've simply had time and chance to see where resistance leads.

Not to mention Japan didn't have to deal with ultra-reactionary Confucian literati, which were butt-fucking internal affairs of China since at least 1750s with their fierce "even if broken, don't fix it" stance

>>46958933
>how absolutely arrogant both sides were toward each other and how haughty everyone felt about it.
Just to make a point for this
There was a Russian "expedition" in the first years of 19th century, being nothing more than diplo-scientific party trying to open up trade with "Kitaj" and doing basic research about China itself.
They never entered the country, because on the borders they were asked for... customary bowing. EVERYONE bowed, but the count who was designated leader of the Russian party, instantly going for insults. Chinese just shrugged then and send them away.

And that's more or less how everyone was doing "business" with China in the mentioned period.

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Okay this thread made it.

I want to know more AND play an RPG with Wuxia-China(ish) setting

So:
-What are the best (classic) Wuxia stories one should read?

-What RPG system should I use?

>>46959133
>What are the best (classic) Wuxia stories one should read?
Do you know Chinese? Sincere question

>What RPG system should I use?
Feng Shui is literally Wuxia: The RPG

>>46959133
>What are the best (classic) Wuxia stories one should read?
The Condor Hero Trilogy; Legend of Condor Heroes, Return of the Condor Heroes, Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber. This is the defining work of the genre and the only reason it's still popular. Each has live-action TV adaptions you can watch if needed, which is probably a good idea unless you can read Mandarin or Cantonese.

You could also took up Legend of Wulin Hero on the tg archive, which if I recall correctly the QM created as a sort of "beginner's guide" to Wuxia that explained it in a way that new folks could understand.

>What RPG system should I use?
Legends of the Wulin, hands down.

That's not open wushu faggot.

Thanx anons

>>46959218
>Feng Shui is literally Wuxia: The RPG
>>46959241
>Legends of the Wulin, hands down.
Okay will take a look at both.

>>46959218
>Do you know Chinese? Sincere question
No. Maybe I will try to learn it later (but more because of my job)

So jeah ...At least for some time I am stuck to English translations

>>46959133
Regarding Wuxia stories, I'd recommend Jin Yong's works, which includes the Condor trilogy anon mentions here >>46959133
other notable ones are Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils (Tian Long Ba Bu) and The Smiling, Proud Wanderer (Xiao Ao Jiang Hu).
Though not strictly speaking wuxia fiction, I'd also recommend looking up The Romance of Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West, and Fengshen Yanyi, since they provide a background in the Chinese view of morality and more fantastical elements.

>>46959133
Read
Water margin
Journey to the west
Romance of the three kingdoms
The Condor trilogy
Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber
The Deer and the Cauldron
Juedai Shuamgjiao
The Xiaoli Feidao series
The Chu Liuxiang series
The Lu Xiofeng series

Watch
Once Upon a Time in China
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

>>46959735
wrong link, I meant >>46959241

>>46959241
Okay ...found a fantranslated Condor Hero Trilogy

>>46959742
Kay

>>46959735
Also thank you

>>46959757
Don't be disheartened if you find the Condor heroes a bit hard to read. I originally read the books in chink, and few years later found a English version and flipped through it. Holy shit it was like chewing nails, the language didn't flow nearly as well. But there's a good story in there, so hang on tight.

>>46959742
>Once Upon a Time in China

But only the first one and the sequel. The first one for general vibe of wuxia story. The second one for very, very specific type of wuxia, namely - set during late Qing period, where you are seriously dealing both with rebels and invaders, while the central government is literally falling apart and everyone is on their own and mercy of the noble defenders of the people.

Plus all the films that followed were utter shit

>>46956933
because its a good pic and im saving it

thanks for the list of good pics from earlier btw. i saved everything in this thread but yknow its good to know where the high-tier picks are

>>46961795
I have always been a fan of Iron Monkey.
Hit all the right notes.

What sort of monsters lurk Chinese lore?

My gf said even the most fedora Chinese folk are terrified of ghosts, apparently ghosts to China are as witches to Africa

>>46965450
Monsters are irrelevant to wuxia anyway.
Wuxia isn't about supernatural beings and monsters and such (that's a subgenre), it's about people.

>>46965450
>Wuxia
>Monsters
Corrupt, selfish people. Greedy people. Stupid, emotional people. Anarchists. Foreigners that are against traditional values. Over-zelous bureaucrats that push tradition too hard.

In short - humans.

>>46965450
>>46965478

Most 'monsters' in Wuxia stories were once people. Even the most inhuman rarely started that way, but fell to corrupt, forbidden and heretical practices.

>>46952340
>I'm a skelly
>You are on the wrong crowd pal.

>>46941169
Togashi Korimi...

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>>46965450
The only one I really know is the Jiangshi. Basically a mix between a zombie and a vampire.

>>46942584
"Dude, does anyone else see these fucking tigers?"

>>46968448
I´ve always wondered how they keep those small hats on their heads? Do they have an hairbun underneath?

>>46968519
It's a hairpiece.

>>46968572
Oh. Well, the more you know... Thanks, anon.

>>46943158
713 looks dope

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>>46965450

Jade Empire is a game to play if you want a little inspiration on the more mystic side of wuxia themes. In general, though, as >>46965478, >>46965534, and >>46965526 said, wuxia is fundamentally about people, and it's part of why I like the genre so much.

>>46965450
Well the ghosts many Chinese people are afraid of are just that, deceased people turned into malevolent spirits, and they often blame misfortunes on evil spirits. Beyond that, most Chinese monsters involve some kind of dragon, or a kind of monster called Jing, which is a animal or object that gained sentience through meditation, close proximity to a divine being, or just existing for a long time. Interestingly, since Jing possess sentience, they can gain levels in Taoist or Buddhist, and there are lots of stories out there with Jing becoming an Immortal or enlightened. The Classic of Mountains and Seas (Shan Hai Jing) contains alot more about monsters, but to be honest they are mostly obscure ones and most Chinese are either unaware of them or dismiss them as superstition.

Anyone wanna get a LoTW game going?

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>>46973808

Build it, and they will come. Games this niche don't pop up save once a blue moon unless you take the initiative.

>>46973919
B-but I don't wanna GM.

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>>46974386

>Players Confirmed as Useless Leeches on GMs Attempting to Keep The Hobby Alive: The Post

>>46974462
I've never been good at GMing and it's not what I enjoy. Can't guiltrip me into GMing, man.

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>>46974645

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>>46974662

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>>46974677

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>>46974701

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>>46974715

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>>46974735

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>>46974753

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>>46974816

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>You will never speak Chinese and be able to appreciate wuxia novels in their original language

>>46978328
>>You will never speak Chinese
Anon, have you tried taking a course to learn the language?

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>>46978328
How about you learn it, you mong? Unless you are native English speaker, you can easily learn the Mandarin Chinese.
And it's not some bash toward Anglophones, you guys simply suck at Chinese pronunciation, because you don't hear any difference between ch, zh, sh, q, x and s. Which is roughtly 1/3 of all vovels in Chinese.

>Be Pole
>Chinese was piss-easy to master

>>46978453
It's okay, as a native English-speaker who's learned other languages English is kind of a wretched pain in the ass linguistically and is just awful about following even it's own rules.

>>46978476
I speak english exclusively and I fear learning other languages because of it.

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>>46978476
A lot of languages are like that if you look beyond what textbooks tell about them.

>>46978476
That's because English is a mishmash between several linguisitc branches (all belonging to the Indo-European group though, thankfully).

>>46944280
>>46944252
>nip images in a chingchong thread
AUTISM TRIGGERED

>>46965450
The closest thing to monsters in wuxia are probably huge, ancient, angry animals. Snakes, boars, monkeys, tigers, condors. They can prey on peasant villages or become obsessed with harassing individual people.

>>46980743
Mate, 2/3 of those pics are nip.
And half of remaining 1/3 is just white folks in shitty, cheap cosplay-tier costumes

>>46974533
You get good by practice man, of course you have never been good at it.

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Fucking LotW. 1/2 of the system is so simple and easy to grasp, but then you get to sorcery and medicine and I just can't make heads or tails of it.

>>46946249
"Dying backwater" is basically true but you have to have context, europeans are and were evil, for centuries we carved up the world, because we had more guns and a shitty society based on not only kissing the nobles ass but also whoring our daughters out to them, and then sending most of our sons to die all so maybe we could climb a few rungs on the ladder, which itself is built on exploiting weaker countries, you can wank over us having better guns but remember the average peasant in china or arabia had access to a real culture and have overall had relatively more advanced cultures than us for longer than our short stint of almost strictly military supremacy

>>46983715
There is so much wrong with this statement that I honestly don't have enough time on my work break to type out exactly how many ways you are wrong.

>>46946435
"Even began to introduce elements of capitalism" RETARD, if trading isn't an element of capitalism then at least trade via currency is, your point really makes me laugh, obviously capitalism is pig shit stupid and literally involves no concepts other than please give me this in exchange for that

>>46983715
>le whitey is evil maymay

>>46983372

/tg/'s own Mr Rage put together a document explaining it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i_4QX-Y9R6OzZBm-w6jOMpbOA1j6oXnLHjrR-knNvB8/edit

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>>46983715
Keep /his/ cuckmemes where they belong.

>>46983803
Really though, since the crusades we have done nothing but jihad for capitalism first and christianity second, almost a thousand years of conquest, it didnt get really bad until our more deadly germs killed millions of Native Americans but at what point in history was anyone except ghengis khan doing something as evil as oir ancestors- Rome conquering others and enforcing bastardized greek values with a tiny bit less pedophilia and a lot less actual culture- Dark ages - Crusades- age of colonization and the first major and long running inter-continental slave trade, how is it not true that we are objectively more evil?

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>>46983715
Most peasants in China were uneducated, were treated well or harshly as the people above them willed, and had little access to things that people in Europe had by the 1600s.

Europe developed ideas about the rule of law and basic rights that China didn't, openly criticized their governments, and slowly pushed the nobility out of power (or occasionally quickly and violently) and gave people even more freedom. During the Qing dynasty, the Chinese weren't supposed to form groups or protest, and any intellectuals who did were usually harshly punished. China didn't develop a middle class until within the last century, so you either had the poor or the rich. And since they didn't industrialize very quickly, for years they were plagued with the problems of having so many people to feed, and so few jobs to give them (in an agrarian society, you only need so many workers, especially when you're not really growing on plantations for export).

China wasn't the absolute worst, and a lot of its problems in the Qing era can honestly be blamed partially on drought and partially on poor management by a weak/corrupt government, but man was European society better by comparison.

Note that I've simplified things a lot and might be wrong on some details.

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>>46984138

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>>46984158

>>46984068
It should be noted than China is not a monolithic country, didn't have a monolithic history (far from it, it suffered numerous different regimes, invasions, administrations, and internal war) and has somewhat suffered from Confucian views on government. Some periods are better to live in. Some are worse.

During the Song Dynasty, by example, the Mandarin bureaucratic system improved China tremendously. Some people say we could have had a industrial revolution right here.

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>>46984177

>>46984189
That's true, but since he talked about Europeans with guns carving up the world, I assumed it'd be fair to look at it from about that time.

And honestly all I really know about earlier periods in Chinese history is that in the 11th century steel production was amazing.

>>46984238
>And honestly all I really know about earlier periods in Chinese history is that in the 11th century steel production was amazing.

The Song Dynasty is the golden age of China, IMHO.

The Mandarins were a meritocratic caste of philosophers-scientists, of problem solvers. Everyone could become one if he succeeded at the test. Obviously, usually, only rich people could afford the schooling and to take the test, but at least on paper, everybody could become one.

They improved science, infrastructure, and generally made China a better place to live for almost everyone. It was not a perfect place then, of course, but was slowly becoming one.

I don't even know if there is another caste of meritocratic problem solvers in history.

>>46984068
You forgot the time when they burned all of the books because anti-intellectual movements in China are just kind of a thing.

>>46983888
Kudos anon, those trips are well earned.

>>46946147
>Weren't we going for wuxia?
Well, the half-naked people thing is still pretty wuxia, since half-naked martial artists or people being forced to fight almost naked after their clothes blew up mid-fight isn't rare.

>>46965450
Monsters are more of a Xianxia thing.

>>46986172
What's the difference between Xianxia and Wuxia? Just monsters?

>>46986172
>>46965450
Yeah Xianxia is great take Buddhist, Daoist, and classical Chinese mythology mix in some western fantasy concepts and set to puree

Its High-Fantasy Wuxia filled with Immortals and Gods and Monsters
most of the main characters start small and then end up at or around the top of the kung-fu food-chain

Exalted is a pretty good example of the kind of crazy you can get in the genre

>>46986533
For examples of the genre check out
>Coiling Dragon
>Martial God Asura
>Desolate Era
>And Stellar Tranformations

You can find the translations of the novels online

>>46986504
Basically what this guy >>46986533
said.
Wuxia is all about Cultivating Chi until you Ascending to Immortality and the adventures that come with it. It's Chinese High fantasy, where puny mortals discover realms of greatness beyond their wildest dreams, where they can grow stronger with almost no limits, fight great demonic beasts, make enemies explode with but a glare, uncover ancient worlds and ruins, gain divine Karma and so on.

In some cases, this means that the protagonist spends decades just meditating to git gud and other times he travels the lands in search of fortune and power, gaining fame, unlocking new ways to gain more power, gradually turning from a a mere ant to a hero of legend.

Wuxia novels are also infamously long. Like, 2000~ chapters long.

>>46986602
If we're talking about online Wuxia novels, then I Shall Seal The Heavens is also a pretty good one.

>>46986172
>>46986504
>>46986533
Would the "xian" bit refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism) ? (the guys referred to as "immortals" further up the thread)

>>46948835
>Mind you Daoist Immortals and Buddhist Bodishativas are NOT supposed to be common at all; it's something you spend literally your entire life learning to become, and even then most people still fail at achieving that enlightened state.
Because the kind who get their powers from talismans seem easy enough to work in.

>>46986691
>Would the "xian" bit refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism) ?
Yes wuxia is Martial Hero
Xianxia is Immortal Hero

>>46986691
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)
>Yóuxiān (Yóuxíng xiān 遊行仙, “roaming immortals”) – Xian who “transform” by constantly ingesting metals and minerals.
Wait, D&D's Green Star Adept was a Chinese thing?

>>46973919
Monkey king best bro.

Seems like there's a lot of interest. Do any of ya'll want to try getting a game going?

>>46944406
It's whatever you want it to be, anon.

>>46987809
Of what?

>>46946147
>weren't we going for wuxia?
The thread evolved, clearly.

But if that's not quite good enough as an explanation, I feel like the Japanese aspects at least would serve as an interesting cultural contrast--in regards to fighting style and philosophy--than most of the stuff a group could expect to see in their wuxia games.

In moderation, of course. Don't want your Legends of the Wulin turning into Legends of the Five Rings because your GM's a weeb or he just happens to know more about Japanese martial culture than Chinese.

>>46990855

Then again, for high action craziness, LotW works for basically anything. It's used for animu stuff a lot.

>>46990958
>tfw /tg/ never finished their Warframe RPG based on LotW
It's rough, man.

>>46991021

Honestly, you don't even need an adaptation. I ran a short Legends of the Warframes game with just the core book and the Wulin Legends wiki. All it really takes is some creative refluffing and defining your interpretation of the fluff with your group.

Love this artsyle

>>46986602
I feel i need to add Skyfire Avenue to this list as it is Xianxia + Mecha and Swallowed Star which is Xianxia + Sci-Fi

>bump

>>46987809
Of what, exactly?

>>46983803
Anon, Opium Wars were literally "English drug traffickers waging war with governement that banned drugs". Seriously want to defend that? 19th century imperialism was one of the most fucked up thing ever invented by humanity.

>>46978453
For me, the fear is not the difference between ch, zh, sh, q, x, and s, but the difference in tones like mà, má, mā, and mă. I would like it if I didn't call someone's mother a horse.

>>46984068
>Taking things out of context this much
During Qing China was rulled by foreign dynasty that had to use everything on their disposal to remain in power, you stupid mong.

China, ever since fall of Song dynasty, was either ruled by foreigners (Yuan and Qing) or own government that wasn't really that strong (Ming), while all three openly neglected reforms and economy (two looters, one ain't-broken-don't-fix)

And anon, don't want to break it for you, but up until mid 1700s, China was definitely the best place to live on this planet. It was around then when Europe cought up. Remember the Dutch reforms in agriculture that gave good ground for English agrarian "revolution"?
Those were based on tools bought and transported back from China. Like the fucking iron adjustable plought or using machines (there isn't even English name for it, so go figure) instead of hand-baskets for winnowing... for previous 800 years. It's not that China was populous just because they've fucked a lot.

And you are jumping on China during late Qing as a representation of China in any other period than late Qing. Not only that's unjustified, it's simply cherry-picking.

>Inb4 shut up chink-chonk
I'm Polish and education in my country doesn't suck nor is ethnocentric. And never was. One of the perks of being dirty commie in the past. But we've got a saying that basically translates into "What British lost on the battlefield, their historians will win in textbooks later".

>>46984483
>The Song Dynasty is the golden age of China, IMHO.

Not only yours - that's widely accepted stance of historians. SOME might argue that mid-Tang (strong military before revolts caused by poor governing tear the country apart) or mid-Ming (enormous economy, but stagnant culture and governing getting more and more out of hand) are better, but Song combines few important elements, that definitely make it golden:
- trendemous economical jump; we are talking about things that easily eclipsed European economical growth between 1450 and 1650.
- extensive and EFFECTIVE reforms, which turned Chinese bureaucracy of that period into the epitome of what good and effective bureaucracy should be
- gigantic jump in science and culture, since the education was reformed into teaching more than just literature
- reform within Confucianism itself, giving early sprouts of neo-Confucianism; the only time anyone dared to even question following old-ass rules without any adjustment for "modern" world
... and then Mongols came in and fucked the country forever, since it soon proved ultra-traditionalism is the best way to oppose them, push them out and then start governing. Only to end up with fossilised government and vantom corruption soon after, then few revolts in mid 1600s and this lead to Manchu invasion that met little-to-no resistance, as the country was too weak at this point to oppose them at all. Hence army of 50k guys conquered country inhabited by 200 millions.
And don't forget about Portugese doing their best in south China to get rich without even bothering with anyone else.

Qing era pass 1750s was just long string of incompetent rulers, lack of any reforms and massive self-righteous wank of everyone in China. Meanwhile, Europe finally clawed above the level of China and soon shit started to hit the fan.

>>46997250
The original Polish anon here - tones, at least the 4 tones of modern Mandarine Chinese, are very, very easy to learn. It works like proper pronunciation, so if you are learning the oral language, you are getting tones right off the bat.

Meanwhile, shitload of foreigners got serious problems with properly pronuncing basic vovels, so nobody cares about their tones, as their language is unintelligible. And believe me - it's much easier for Chinese to correct your tones if they are wrong than making a wild guess what you've just tried to articulate at all.
Still remember how the French guy from out exchange group was always like "Nah, you talk with them, it will be quicker", because he couldn't get si, ci and qi right

>>46997429
Oh, and just to explain - southern dialects of Chinese got like 12-16 tones, depending on dialects. Compared to that, Mandarine with only 4 and stream-lined pronounciation is almost a child play

>>46997429
>>46997448
Doesn't help if you are tone deaf, or can't modulate your voice properly, of course.

>>46997380
Well, before the Mongols steamrollered the Song they also had some other pretty significant internal issues that kept popping up.
The Jin Empire of the Jurchen had significant military successes against the Song and border wars between the Jurchen and other northern nomadic tribal groups were pretty much a constant ongoing thing that was kind of eroding their military power over time. It's notable that mostly the Jurchen WON these conflicts, and the though the Jin fell to the Mongols themselves later before the Mongols conquored China, in no way was Song not used to loosing battles and territory against northern semi-nomadic tribal groups at that point.

Socially speaking to by the end of the dynasty the Song had basically what amounts to history's first known overproduction crisis as they became so "industrialized" so to speak and so advanced without the societal changes needed to adapt to the changes and which led to a sort of resurgence in conservative values as lots people saw the massive influx of wealth and new technologies and ideas as "part of the problem".

This of course turned out to be a bad idea in the long run since they basically removed the one thing that might have let them hold out better against the Mongols when they invaded, but from a retrospective standpoint they probably still would have eventually lost because the Mongols were using gunpowder weaponry themselves and were just flat-out better at fighting wars while the Song at that point had proven itself to be pretty good at loosing them against folks just like the Mongols.

All civilizations decline eventually after all.

>>46997492
Every language on this planet got tones, to be honest. Polish got 2nd, 3rd and 4th as a way of modulating your voice when you are (in that order) asking questions, being surprised and barking orders. The 1st tone? Well, just imagine you are singing.
I can barely hear 3rd tone when ü is involved and I'm completely unable to pronunce it without rehersal. That's after 3 years of study and 10 months in China. And I still insist Chinese is very, very easy to master, because it simply LOOKS scary. While the actual language, unless complex grammar structures with 了 are involved, is basically a series of lines of algorithm, because everything is very logical and based almost exclusively on rules. Kind of like building from LEGO bricks.

>>46997582
Mate, did you just tried to make an argument around "but their military was weak" about dynasty that from day 1 had NO military and when taking over after Tang crisis ended, lost half of the land previously controlled by Tang without a fight?
Everyone... no, wrong. Anyone interested knows that Song had no fucking interest in military and external politics. And good for them, because thanks to that they've pushed their own country ahead enough that next 5 centuries it was basically running on the momentum generated by Song. Kind of good, if you ask anyone around.

>>46975374
I find this incredibly adorable.

>>46997645
No official military IS a pretty weak military. Especially when you're later surrounded by pissed-off belligerents who park their assess on your country and undo all your hard work.
Song was extremely advanced for it's time but kind of self-absorbed when it came to it's government, which obviously a bad thing in the long run because their biggest problems ended up NOT being internal ones and they were one of the relatively few Dynasty's to not fall to internal disputes and civil wars but to foreign invasions instead.

So basically while they managed to put through some reforms they also had internal resistance to them at the same time and while they were busy looking inward their neighbors were gearing up to kick their asses and they didn't even have a plan to do shit about it when it started happening, though to their credit they started up an official navy and got a something of a real military started after the the Jiankang Incident.

>>46997762
>Neighbours
Different anon, but there was NOTHING that could stop Mongols.
Nothing.
And Song still did a great job of retreating for next few decades. Plus when compared with any previous or any future dynasty, they are definitely THE best one of them all in overall scale.
Let me stress this out again - a dynasty that neglected military, allowed to be taken over, fucked up own merchant class (but that's pretty normal for Confucian nations to do) and locked themselves up... is still the best dynasty of them all, as their achievements easily out-do the neglected things and failures.

>>46997645
Basically, their reforms were awesome and all but when some guy can just walk over and beat you up and make all of them useless and you end up undoing them later then they were a good idea that kind of had poor historical placement. The shit that when down in the Song Dynasty would have been massively better placed in the MING Dynasty era, because at the exact time period the Song was going through all those reforms was kind of the absolute worst timing to do them because they had some pretty ambitious neighbors.

I'm all for reforming things for the better but if a guy can just kill your ass in the middle of doing them it kind of defeats the point; dead/loosing/conquered is the OPPOSITE of why you go through internal societal reforms, namely to better strengthen your society and government, and when you loose to the guy next door and you have to do whatever he says for the next three hundred-odd years you are pretty much definitively in what history calls "the looser's side".

>>46997803
Confucianism seems to hurt China more then it helps historically, no offense meant to the philosophy itself.
It also seems to encourage to rise of a ridiculously corruptible scholar-bureacrat class because you test them on shit related to knowledge of Confucianism but don't bother to test them on their knowledge of actually being a good governer or weather or not they're going to just be shitheads in office once they get official status.

>>46997803
>Different anon, but there was NOTHING that could stop Mongols.
>Nothing.
Yeah, I kinda made that point myself.
The Mongols were REALLY good at kicking everyone's ass, and perhaps at best the Song could have slowed them down more.
At the time they were basically an enfire culture of professional military service guys who had awesome cavalry and a willingness to be flexible with tactics and strategies used.

They were like a while society of guys who make characters who spec into combat and literally nothing else, and then get the other party members they drag with them to do non-combat stuff.

>>46997762
Let's see...
Qin dynasty - marvelous start, then fucked over by all those people Qin Shi Huang conquered and pissed off. Still, a great legacy
Han dynasty - 2nd worst of the lot, doing nothing else than taking over after Qin, maintaining status quo for a while and then starting to collapse under own weight
The fuck-up that followed is pretty much 3rd century Rome, where everyone was busy fighting each other and ruining the country in the process.
Sui dynasty - militaristic assholes that took over by force and... collapsed soon after
Tang dynasty - militaristich jerks that took over Sui by coup and tried their best to conquer everyone around (so no enemies from the outside) and getting all the other jerks busy (so they were sending military expeditions). The moment there was nobody to conquer, the whole thing started to collapse again, since nobles were now renowned military leaders with their armies.
Song dynasty - "fuck you all, I'm taking the toys with me and go home" dynasty, a great jump in economy and science, but neglected everything else, which bite their asses in no time, first by loosing northern part of China, then being curb-stomped by Mongols
Yuan dynasty - Mongols. Aside of improving infrastructure to loot the country faster, they've did nothing nad forever tainted Chinese culture with ultra-traditionalism (in already traditionalistic culture) as a way of dealing with foreigner rulers
Ming dynasty - "remember the good old times, guys?" fuck-up that combined nostalgia, traditionalism and vantom corruption that somehow maintained the country for 250 years, until revolts imploded it from the core (which was expected, given how much Ming were busy with the outside world)
Qing dynasty - "muahahaha, puny Chinese, suffer!"; while Hans were incompetent in form of not doing anything at all, Qing were incompetent in their open stike on Chinese people and their culture, while sumberging themselves in it, fucking the country big time

>>46997843
Mate, you are making a HUGE oversimplification based on... well, nothing.

The "corrupt Chinese bureaucrat" is efect of how the country was run, not the philosophy itself. Mind you, Confucianism is responsible for creation of vast net of PROFESSIONAL bureaucrats loyal to the state, something that rest of the world didn't develop for next 2000-1800 years.
The knowledge bit is what made Song so great - they've reformed the imperial exam. It wasn't until Ming that needed to "purge" the literati class the reforms was made to go back to the roots and again only study literature.
In short - there is no way to comment it all within 2k signs limit, but try read Kunstler, Needham and Pimpaneau. Even Needham's "Great Titration" should be enough, since it streamlines all the flaws and massive bonuses of Confucianism and Chinese bureaucracy, pointing out where, what and how could be fixed or was perfect.

>>46997817
I get all of this, but think about something different. Song did bunch of reforms that lasted for less than a century...
... and that was enough to keep the country going on sheer momentum of the process they've started up until early 1700s, while for all that time all their successors were busy DISMANTLING said reforms. And yet things still kept on going.

I'm not sure if anyone else ever managed to do something similar.