Warhammer 40k General

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>Orks are a melee race

>I2
>S3

Don't see it in the database, anyone have a scan of the Imperial Knight: Renegade book yet?

>>46905744
>book
There is no book, just the dataslate.

>not linking to this thread in the old general

Scumbag OP edition.

>>46905744
not much in it but the rules for the knight (which was already posted multiple times) and the stats for the weapons
what do you need it for ? if it's worthwhile i'll scan mine for you

Anyone got rules for that new ork flier?

>>46905924
The one that was just recently announced and not released yet?

Or is there a different new one?

Or do you mean the formations from ghaz?

>>46905731
>More attacks than possessed marines

>>46905960
The Mek boy monstrosity, some anon had some leaked images, thought the rules might be in there too.

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>>46906002
>less initiative than imperial guards

Well, if it isn't a new thing for Orks. Appropriately painted painted yellow for the lemon it is going to be. A flying Gorkanaut with no clear roll and not being good at anything.

I've a game against a Nurgle "The Purge" army.

Which list looks like it'd fair better?

Combined Arms Detachment (Primary)

HQ [ 2 ]

Big Mek (104 pt); Da Finkin' Kap; 'Eavy Armour; Bosspole; Kustom Force Field;
Painboy (50 pt); 'Urty Syringe; Dok's Tools;

Troops [ 3 ]

29x - Boyz (330 pt.); 'Eavy Armor for Mob;
> 1x - Boss Nob; Bosspole; Power Klaw; Shoota;
> 28x - Boy; Slugga; Choppa;

12x Boyz (162pt.)
> 1x - Boss Nob; Bosspole; Power Klaw; Shoota;
> 10x - Boy; Shoota;
> 1x - Boy; Big Shoota;
> 1x - Trukk; Big Shoota; Reinforced Ram

11x - Gretchin (35pt.)
> 1x - Runtherd; Grabba Stikk; Slugga;
> 10x - Gretchin; Grot Blasta;

Fast Attack [ 1 ]

1x - Deffkopta (30pt.); Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha;

Heavy Support [ 3 ]

11x - Lootas (154pt.)

1x - Looted Wagon (67pt.); Killkannon;

2x Mek Gunz (66pt.)
> 2x - Smasha Gun;
> 2x - Extra Gretchin;

--OR--

Combined Arms Detachment (Primary)

HQ [ 2 ]

Big Mek (104pt.); Da Finkin' Kap; 'Eavy Armour; Bosspole; Kustom Force Field;
Painboy (55pt.); 'Urty Syringe; Dok's Tools; Bosspole;

Troops [ 2 ]

20x - Boyz (120 pt.)
> 20x - Boy; Slugga; Choppa;

20x - Boyz (120 pt.)
> 20x - Boy; Slugga; Choppa;

Fast Attack [ 1 ]

1x - Deffkopta (30pt.); Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha;

Heavy Support [ 1 ]

2x Mek Gunz (75pt.)
> 2x - Smasha Gun;
> 4x - Extra Gretchin
> 1x - Ammo Runt

---

Dread Mob - Combined Arms Detachment (Auxillery)

HQ [ 1 ]

Pain Boss (85pt.); 'Eavy Armour; Bosspole; Power Klaw;

Troops [ 2 ]

12x Spanna Boyz (139pt.)
> 11x - Spanna Boy; Shoota; Stikkbombz;
> 1x - Mek; Big Shoota;
> 1x - Scrap Trukk; Big Shoota; Reinforced Ram; Armour Plates; Grabbin' Klaw;

11x - Gretchin Scavengers (50pt.)
> 1x - Runtherd; Grabba Stikk; Slugga; Squig Hound;
> 10x - Grot Scavs; Grot Blasta; Firebombz;

11x - Lootas (221pt.)
> 1x - Looted Wagon; Killkannon

>>46906088
Jesus fuck anon, condense your shit.

>>46906041
I2 works fine for the 'crons

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>>46906100

Just following the example for "good list" etiquette.

>>46906106
'crons can handle damage.

>>46906106
crons also get a global 5+ save in addition to actual arrmour

If all boyz got their 'eavy armour for free theyd be quite good

>>46906041
>Higher weapon skill
>Grots shoot as well as highly trained humans.

>>46906067
If the KFF doles out the invuln to everything within 6" of it on the ground it might see purpose there. Tellyport blastas have good stats as well, just fucking pointless range and use on mega armoured meks. If this thing has a large tellyport blast it could be cool.

>>46906137
I realize now you have like 3 lists in there and that's why it looks so fucking big.

>>46906106
>>46906146
>>46906156
and crons don't use warriors to assault.

>>46906180
But the plane moves faster than anything on the ground.

Hey guys, I posted a while back about finding some old (3/4E I think) Eldar models that I painted when I was a teenager. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with them, but based on the models I have I think it'd be best to strip, repaint, and run them as Alaitoc or Ulthwé. I want to make a fluffy list, spend the least possible, and actually get games (in roughly that order).

So my questions are:
1. Is it too much to take 2 Farseers at 1000 pts?
2. Would you play against a 1000 pt CAD consisting of roughly the following?

>2 Farseers
>2 units of 10 Guardian Defenders, each with a Warlock and Scatter platform
>1 unit of 9 Storm Guardians with flamers and a Warlock, in a Wave Serpent
>Squadron of 2 Vypers with shuriken cannons
>Fire Prism

Thanks m8s

>>46906045
The reason for the rules isn't even that good.
>"Yeah I want shooty units take Khorne's icon, so let's allow units with it overwatch with full BS".

>>46904876
I'll give you examples from my DE I can think of

1) Random charge range - Used to be guaranteed 6" assault
2) Fleet nerf - Used to be you run and then assault which meant charge range went from 6+1d6 minimum 7"
3) Charging through cover reduces charge range by 2" minimum charge range is now 2d6" -2 or 0".
4) Nerf to power weapons - Used to be power weapon = ignores armor which was great for DE as we had poison power weapons (at 25 pts)
5) Unusual force weapons - any power weapon that wasn't an Imperial weapon that got special treatment is now AP3 meaning DE lost nearly all army wide AP2 melee
6) Demon USR nerf - Used to give 4++ and eternal warrior (khymeras are deamons)
7) Overwatch allows shooty units to shoot into melee on top of the fact it is impossible to reach melee without suffering a minimum of 1 turn of being shot, 2 if they deploy smartly
8) Flamers in overwatch getting d3 auto hits which on DE is d3 dead models
9) Overwatch doesn't count as part of the melee phase when it comes to my invulnerable saves that only work in melee
10) Open topped vehicles went from Explodes! at str 3 to str4, open topped now gives +1 to on vehicle damage (more likely to explode), and when you use a flamer on an open topped vehicle is hits d6 passengers (which is d6 dead DE no saves)
11) Hydra guantlets went from d6 bonus attacks to re-roll to wounds (which on a 1A model base is pointless)
12) Haywire grenades used to be unit wide can only be used by a sergeant now.
13) In order to buy a melee weapon I first need to be a sergeant meaning all melee weapons have a 10pt tax, meanwhile all my ranged weapons I don't have to do that.
14) Phantasm Grenade Launchers used to give unit wide assault + defensive grenades and instead now give an attack that is ignored by ATSKNF / fearless.
15) Fearless were buffed it used to be that if they were suffered a sweeping advanced they would lose 1d3 models
16) Challenges easily allow people to kill / ignore special weapon users

>>46906229
Given how generally weak that army is 2 Farseers is fine.

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I wish tyranids were good. Tired of spamming flyrants to have a chance.

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>>46905716

>GW adding more convoluted and chunky rules for flyers

>>46905924
Not leaked yet. 2 Kustom Mega Kannons or Tellyporta Mega Blastas, unknown because WD & GW can't keep their shit straight (TL Big Shootas & Rokkits on the Super-heavy Gorkanaut! :D ). That, or they're actually different gun options.

The Smasha Gun they talk about as being a Lifta-Droppa, what with its ability to flip over tanks.

Boy howdy, can't fukken wait for the ultra-useful, well-conceived, carefully designed 3 Blastajet formation that gives them +1" movement if they snap-shoot or what the fuck ever.

>>46904876
>What makes 7th the shooting edition?
It's a lot easier and less of a fuss all you need is to have a target and be within range, some shooting doesn't even need LoS and it keeps getting more powerful disproportionately to CC, the new dual-dakka knight being a fine example.

In short it is the easier, more reliable and more powerful way to play, which leads to popularity and specialization.

>>46906207
They often do it. In a Decurion they are relentless, so they can shoot and charge. And disembarking from a Ghost Ark, unloading gauss and then charging is a good way to do lot of damage to light unit or vehicles with AV10 rear.

>>46906210
With the way I use flyers that won't really be an issue, I have them turn up, shoot, jink against anything then jump off again in the next turn. While they're sitting there ready to disappear again they can give out the invuln.

>>46905990
That's an impressive amount of mad. 'Course, when mechanicum become available for the Imperium in 40k (it's going to happen, GW loves money too much not to) they'll be fine and balanced, won't they?

>>46905731
oh hey, look, it's this shitpost again

>>46906088
>>46906200

Who needs ObSec anyways?

Ork Horde Detachment (Primary)

HQ [ 3 ]

Big Mek (104pt.); Da Finkin' Kap; 'Eavy Armour; Bosspole; Kustom Force Field;
Painboy (55pt.); 'Urty Syringe; Dok's Tools; Bosspole;
Painboy (55pt.); 'Urty Syringe; Dok's Tools; Bosspole;

Troops [ 4 ]

20x - Boyz (120 pt.)
> 20x - Boy; Slugga; Choppa;

20x - Boyz (120 pt.)
> 20x - Boy; Slugga; Choppa;

12x Boyz (162pt.)
> 1x - Boss Nob; Bosspole; Power Klaw; Shoota;
> 10x - Boy; Shoota;
> 1x - Boy; Big Shoota;
> 1x - Trukk; Big Shoota; Reinforced Ram

11x - Gretchin (35pt.)
> 1x - Runtherd; Grabba Stikk; Slugga;
> 10x - Gretchin; Grot Blasta;

Fast Attack [ 1 ]

2x - Deffkopta (30pt.); Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha;

Heavy Support [ 3 ]

11x - Lootas (154pt.)

1x - Looted Wagon (67pt.); Killkannon;

2x Mek Gunz (75pt.)
> 2x - Smasha Gun;
> 4x - Extra Gretchin
> 2x - Ammo Runt

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>>46906297
Don't worry anon! There are new rules for fliers coming! Are you ready for the flyrant's long-awaited nerfing?

>>46906272
In my opinion the marks should really have an effect related to the unit that take it.
If I'm making a Slaanesh themed army but I want to use obliterators giving them the mark is only a tax, since they would attack in cc at initiative 1 anyway.
Instead they should gain a bonus that reflect another aspect of Slaanesh, like for example hir desire of mastery by giving them the master-crafted rule for their weapons

Little list for league play, I would have liked a hammerhead but the AV is too high to field. Hows this for an all comers list? Alternative units I could have that I can use are a broadside and a crisis commander. I wouldn't mind picking up something else though if it would help.

500pts Tau Empire CAD

HQ
Ethereal

Troops
Five man strike team with support turret.
Five man strike team

Elites
Three man crisis suit team with x2 missile pods, bonding knife ritual
Three man crisis suit team with burst cannons and flamers, bonding knife ritual. One upgraded to Sas'vre with neuroweb system jammer.

Fast Attack
Five man pathfinder team with one upgraded to Sas'ui.

>>46906368
They won't be coming back, they only bring back cathaphractii and HH dreadnoughts because they make plastic HH.

>>46906338
Love the Decurion. Completely justifiably cheesy.

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>>46906401
Plz god no, I'm already having images of cruddace rubbing his hands in glee.

>>46906402
that isn't a bad idea.
Making Khornes bonus to shooty units be Slit Fire and good overwatch is. Because those bonuses are tied to ideas of calm, discipline, focus, etc.

>>46906404
Yeah that's okay and all, but have you considered dropping everything but the HQ and troops to pick up a KX139 Ta'unar supremacy armour?

>>46905874
I want to print out a copy of the rules/dataslate/etc to have with me so it's not just a picture on the phone. The only clear picture I've seen of the book is the one from Atia's site that has the cat in it.

>>46906443
>What are Imperial Armour books

>>46906401
fuck
they'dd better not ruin my vendetta

>>46906477
>Gaping Carnifex
Sweeeet

>>46906401
>inb4 FMC will be able to assault fliers

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>>46905731
>Khorne Berserkers are a melee unit
>1 A

>>46906401
I hope heldrakes get a thing about being able to grab onto flyers and rip them up/drag them to the ground like they do in the fluff.

>>46906489
No, can't say I have and don't think I will.

>>46906547
>The heldrake won't be able to assault fliers, despite previously having vector strike
>The "MC vs walker" debate moves into the next dimension. Literally.

>>46906514
A waste of money since no one will play against overpowered non GW stuff :^)

Any news on the Angels of Death upload? Heard last night there was a torrent. Any progress?

>>46906402
>>46906479
some ideas for how to do it better
>Nurgle
Possibly the hardest because +1T is good on everything, and most units would take that over a shooty option.
Still Slow and Purposeful and shrouded, ie the daemon rules, would be good on shooty things.
>khorne
Gain Pinning, or at least no overwatch. help out the shooting bodies.
Though Slaanesh having Pinning is an intersting idea too.
Khorne good also give rerolls of 1s to wound. Because Carnage.

Tzeetch
actual good warpflame. and/or a unit hit perils on any doubles. and maybe also can perils from deny the witch on double ones.

>>46906288

That's what I was hoping to hear, thanks for the response. I know Vypers, Warlocks and Storm Guardians are generally supposed to be shit compared to most of the codex, but I'm okay with losing and they fit the fluff I have in mind (basically a regular Ulthwé Strike Force/Black Guardian rapid response unit similar to the 3E Craftworlds Codex fluff).

>>46906368

You realize AdMech is hated by non-Mechfags in 30k right. Your logic is literally "CSM should have everything loyalists do as well as Chaos unique stuff and marks so they're just better in every way possible." Wanting to port AdMech and then just straight buff them with mark options is like saying you should get Eldar codex and then toss in Corsair bonuses because why not, it's fluffy right?

>>46906529
That's a Tervigon conversion of a Dimachaeron

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>>46906506
here you go anon, hopemy shitty scanner's quality is good enough

>>46906733
That's just a Dimachaeron. No conversion I can see.

>>46906735
Fantastic! In your debt, anon.

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>>46906529
>>46906733
>>46906752

Fun story, I ran a dima in my game this weekend.

It assaulted in a mixed combat with a khorne daemon prince and got IDd immediately.

Good times

This was my third game yesterday, so I am still really new.
Do Salamanders have a special type of flamethrower?
Recently went against a Space Marine player using a Salamandar Successor Chapter and his squad shot all of its bolters at a Venom and then "shot" his template but my Venom was 13" away so my understanding is that it shouldn't be able to shoot it at all. There was a unit of Kalabites in between the venom and the Salamander unit that did get hit by the flamer. (just the end of it though so it was only hitting 3) and I lost two of them.

Looking through my rulebook he has to shoot all weapons from that unit (these were tactical marines so I don't think they can split their fire) at the same unit. Is this a trick with flamers in that he can shoot "towards" the unit but hit another one?

Is this a template thing?

>>46906735
Nice! I am a different Anon, but thank you also.
Any chance you have the rules for the IK:Renegade game?

What if Cypher was Alpharius the entire time?

>>46906866
I think he cheated.

>>46906866
If there had been part of the nominated unit definitely in range then this would be a no-brainer 'yes you can hit models from a different unit with a template firing at another'.

As is... it feels like an edge case that you should discuss with your opponent.

>>46906866
Templates must hit the unit all your models are shooting at, but they can also cover enemy models inbetween.

Still, if the template can't manage to touch the venom no, it can't be shot.

>>46906876
i'dd happily scan that for you tomorrow since it's getting quite late

>>46906888
What if the the emperor on the golden throne was really alpharius covering for the real emperor who is alive and well?

>>46907019
>>46906876
ah fuck it i'll do it right now

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>>46906866
They got a flamer with torrent (providing the model stood still) as a relic in the recent Angels of Death book. Unusually, this relic can be taken by a normal squad marine rather than characters. Pic related.

As to the rest, my interpretation is: with templates you have to maximise hits on the target unit, but given there's only one model in the venom's "unit", providing he's covering that he can put the rest of the template wherever he likes.

>>46907049
Template weapons are specifically required to cover as much of the target vehicle as possible

>>46907005
It seemed really strong but he seemed more expereinced and it made enough sense. I just wanted to check if I missed something with flamer rules but then my rulebook basically said what >>46907012 said.

>>46907008
Yeah the Venom was like two templates away from the Tacticals but the Kalabites were directly in front so he was able to shoot the flamer straight forward.

Oh well, maybe its from an older edition? Either way I will let him know.

Thanks all.

>>46907049
>May only be taken by a MODEL that may take items from the special weapons list.
So in other words you can take a special weapon flamer and the nocturne's fury on a tactical squad?

>>46906866
>Did he cover the venom?
>Yes? It's hit
>no? It doesn't make shit to it
If the template can't reach the unit he can't do shit against it, he had to choose the second unit as the target not your venom

TL, DR. Yes he cheated.

>>46906888
Sure makes more sense than Dark Angels being traitors.

Why aren't eversor assassins employed against the xenos more?

>>46907134
No because it's still in the relics list. It means guys like chaplains can't take it as they don't have access to special weapons.

>>46907134
I don't think so. It seems to me like you could take it instead of the Flamer, basically counting it as a Special Weapon option.

That's more my reading of RAI though, rather than strict RAW.

It'd probably be better to get it in a veteran squad or something more survivable regardless.

>>46906866
>cheating in plastic army men fights
>against DE
>with SM

Man, I hate when people abuse new players lack of knowledge like that.

>>46907189
But none of the generic HQs with Relics get Special weapons. They all get Ranged weapons.

>>46907175
Aren't all of the assassins few in number, especially compared to other imperium forces, that they are only really used when absolutely needed?
They can't afford to just drop one in to each Xenos world and have him/her/it play Rambo for a bit. No matter how many times I tell Black Library to.

>>46907175
Because there's a limit to how many can be deployed. Too many Eversors got sent out once.

>>46907274

For those of us which forgot the even (more so forgot it was Eversors that did it):

>Too many Eversors got sent out once.

"In 546.M32, the Grand Master of Assassins Drakan Vangorich began a period of anarchy when he assassinated all the members of the High Lords of Terra during the events of The Beheading whereupon he fled into hiding at an Assassinorum temple. This drew the wrath of the Adeptus Astartes who sent a retribution force consisting of the Halo Brethren, Imperial Fists and Sable Swords. Upon landing, the strike force's commander was assassinated, and the Space Marines fought a battle against a hundred assembled Eversor assassins. They eliminated all the Astartes except for a single warrior, who managed to break into the traitor's hideout and terminate Vangorich in the name of the Emperor"

>>46906876
here you go
second page was unclear so i scanned it again and it's at the end because i can't into pdf and mediafire because to big
http://www.mediafire.com/download/js22o65ddluxb96/rules.pdf

>>46907091
you can do this trick against monsterous/gargant creatures though. Because it specifically says vehicles. So you can just touch the wraithknight/dreadnight/riptide/stormsurge and cover other models as well.

What's the general opinion on forge world units? Are they usually barred from your local gaming groups/tourneys/whatever or allowed? I'm itching to use some rapiers for my CSM but I'm not going to bother if I only get a handful of games out of them

>>46907175

Well they are, but usually it's not heard of as neither the Eversor or their target usually survive the assassination.

>>46907274

Was that the time during M32 when the Lord of Assassins deployed 100 Eversors against a Space Marine led task force sent to end his madness?

>>46907353
Imperial Fists must really have the most stable and easy to be accepted geneseed to be able to create enough Astartes to replace all the ones that die

>>46906571
>quotes their base attack
>ignores all their modifiers that make them like 5-6 attacks on average

Even at a bare minimum, they have like 2-3 attacks.

>>46907402
They're allowed in my group, and my FLGS doesn't seem to have much prejudice against them.

It's also usually easier to stomach if people only bring a handful of units, and if they make sure to bring the rules with them.

Your best option is to ask the people you play with their thoughts on Forgeworld.

>>46906400
>Who needs ObSec anyways?
People who can't realiably kill the enemy.

>>46907429
4 attacks on the charge, at best.

The get 2 weapons, which puts them at 2, and then another 2 from rage.

It's not bad, but it's not outstanding, especially since you can get the exact same number of attacks from standard CSM for less.

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>>46907134
Yeah, the page before says they can, there's a specific sentence to enable it (sorry, should have posted both).

>>46907402
>What's the general opinion on forge world units?

The General Opinion is that it depends entirely on your playgroup.

Some FW stuff is super cheesy (just like some GW stuff) other things (a good 70-80%) is just fine and usually I find them more fluffy. They make some really decent models, though they are more expensive and fragile.

The only problem I had with FW recently was my opponent bringing some 30k point scoring unit by itself in a 40k game, but idk 30k enough to know if it was unbalanced. Apparently he isn't supposed to play it in 40k* from what I was told. /rant

>>46907470
people playing malestorm games. or any game where objectives give VP before game end.

>>46907535
I get why they did it, but it's kind of a shame you still lose a maelstrom mission if you get tabled.

>>46907240
There aren't any exact numbers but there are probably enough to cover the demands and more, let's remember that eversor have a self destruct function to accomplish their objective, the most difficult assassin to make would be the pariahs for their unusual condition.

>>46907535
Same deal, if you can't table or shove the enemy off objectives obsec's all there's left.

>>46907353
>Drakan Vangorich
Isn't he the same from the beast series?

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>>46906401
I am really intrigued about the Dogfight Phase. This might be the thing that finally makes the differences between gunships, ground attack craft and superiority fighters relevant.
Also, Icarus Stormcannon and Skyhammer for 6 S7 shots at tremendous range, supplemented by a tl assault cannon at short range? Delicious.

>>46907573
right, but in end of game scoring you have all game to get them off that objective or whittle them down so they can't hold enought.
In malestorm you need them off that objective immediately, or have the obsec advantage. So obsec is more useful.
An army that just relies on killing the enemy is at a greater disadvantage in malestorm or in game scoring games.

>>46907408
I remember it as 200.

>>46907634
>Isn't he the same from the beast series?
yes

>http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakan_Vangorich#War_of_the_Beast

>>46907634
Yes. And since a single space marine from the strikeforce makes it to him, take one fucking guess as to who it's going to be.

Is the siege master from the space marine siege assault list an HQ choice for a standard SM foc as well?

>>46907639
Yeah. It'll be really neat to get some differentiation between Fighters and Bombers.

I'm not sure how to feel about it taking up a whole phase in 40k, but dogfighting should be more intricate than 'whoever shoots the other plane first wins'.

>>46907697
Draigo

>>46907700
No, it's specific to the Siege list.

>>46907700

No, the special siege stuff is siege armies only.

>>46907049
Vulkan's Sigil looks really lackluster.
Having one extra attack for the unit is fine, but not for 30 points, one use only and, as far as I can remember, there isn't really a Salamander unit that may have a great gain from it.
Am I missing something?

>>46907639
Icarus cannon also has skyfire and interceptor. So you get to shoot at arriving enemy reserves, but it can't shoot at ground targets using normal BS.

>>46907697
Cypher?

>>46906304

The Smasha Gun is already present on the Mek Gun kit; the description matches it perfectly. So it's Str 4+D6, AP1, Heavy 1.

>>46907380
Much appreciated, anon. Sleep well.

>>46907723
i hope more factions get planes
i'dd love something pure air force for IG that isn't forge world

>>46907753
Well, it's on a Chaplain, which means all those marines in the unit are benefiting from Zealot. In a large squad, that could be rather nice on the charge.

Not the greatest thing, but it could be built around.

>>46907796
Don't you have a formation of valk/vendetas now?

>>46907429
>Charge Tau Fire warriors
>enjoy your 2 attack melee unit

>>46907912
Don't forget Pinning and Blind on the charge

>>46907780

>Str 4+D6, AP1, Heavy 1

Sounds useful for shooting at rear armor or flyers if you can make it happen.

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>>46907842
yeah 3 squads that can ignore the scatter on grav chutes but take dangerous terrain tests if they fly over terrain while doing so and if 1 passes the reserve test all squads come in

i meant a model though , valks and vendetta's are more like aircav choppers
i want something that doesn't double as a transport

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Supposedly 150 baseline, FA slot, 12/11/11, supersonic, agile.
Default loadout is icarus, tl heavy bolter and tl asscan. Upgrades icarus to las-talon (heavy 2 lascannon) for +25. Upgrades the tl heavy bolter for the same costs as the stormtalon.

>>46907966
It's literally just S 4 AP 1 armourbane

So it's not too bad for use against flyers, as that's pretty close to S 7 AP 1 in terms of functionality.

>>46907986

>It's literally just S 4 AP 1 armourbane

I know, but I was also factoring in the +D6 as most of the time you're going to get about a 7 or 8 per shot aren't you?

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>>46907968
True enough, a dedicated superiority fighter for IG would be nice. Maybe the old Lightning? That'd be an awesome plastic kit, and FW wouldn't care since they don't make it anymore.

>>46907753
Fluff wargear, more than anything else. Would be decent in a thundernator squad.

it's the hammer that chaplain xavier carried around

>>46907982
All this new things that would easily be given to the other space marines chapters instead can be used only in the vanilla one
I almost feel like a CSM player :^)

>>46908036
S 4+d6 means you take 4, add 1d6, then add another 1d6 for armour penetration.

S 4 armourbane means you take 4 and add 2d6 for armour penetration.

There's virtually no difference between the two.

You're right though, it does tend to mean you're looking at around 11 on average, with decent odds of getting above that for a pen, which is nice with AP 1.

As long as you can line it up to that weaker armor, it's a very nice gun to have on a mobile thing like a flyer.

Of course, Ork Ballistic Skill and the point cost might bring it down.

>>46908108

>Of course, Ork Ballistic Skill and the point cost might bring it down.

The new Flyer might have Grot Guided weapons or the option for BS3.

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>>46906752
You're joking right?

>>46907049
Does digital weapons do anything to drake smiter?

>>46908142
I'd doubt it. Even the current Ork planes only have them operating the Big Shootas.

Them being twin-linked might suffice though.

>>46907982
Will this replace the Stormtalon kit, since it comes with all the stormtalon bits?

>>46907134
No. If someone in the squad takes a flamer, then no other models may take a special weapon.

>>46908074

All they'd have to do is remove the icarus option for the non-vanilla marines.

I'd still rather have any given unit thrown in vanilla only than given exclusively to some shitty snowflake chapter like DA and their gay shroud flyer.

I have a question to some of you Taufags: does Supportive Fire (or whatever that rule is called) require LoS to either the charging or the charged unit if another wants to fire the overwatch ?

Is this shit true >>46908196 ?

What are these reports they are talking about?

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>>46906858

Did someone sayyyyy large useless bugs?

Any good flyer formations to ally to Admech?

I do have two doom scythes, but that's not entirely fluffy.

>>46908153
>not circling the signature pointy carapace hood

Just the difference between plastic and resin is enough to identify GW conversions and FW models. FW details are just deeper and crisper due to being resin.

The Trygon looked a lot crisper when it was a FW model and had more details.

>>46907982
Hmm. I think the base version with Skyhammer Missile Launchers for 155 is a pretty setup. 6 Str 7, AP 4 shots and 4 Str 6 AP 4 Rending shots are bound to put the hurt on most things in the air.

>>46908208
Someone else already answered it >>46907486


>>46908245
It's called being baited

>>46908164

Drake Smiter rerolls to hit due to master crafted. Finger lasers rerolls to wound. Digital weapons will make Drake Smiter better.

>>46908245

Flagrant lies, AoS has been performing terribly in more areas than it's been performing well by all reports so far.

>>46908193

I don't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet money it will as that's what happened with other kits that got extra parts.

>>46906401
I wonder if they'll make the xiphon good

>>46908238

Of course it does, unless the overwatching unit has weapons or rules that allow it to ignore LoS.

Supporting Fire shoots the same way as regular Overwatch.

Regular Overwatch shoots the same way as regular shooting (except for the BS part).

Regular shooting requires LoS in normal situations.

>>46908164
It won't help when making the D attack, rolling on the D damage table is not rolling to wound. Same reason why when eldar 'Doom' something their D-cannons don't get a re-roll (thank fuck)

What changed from 6e to 7e that flyers went from brokenly good to barely playable?

>>46908331
Oh crap, I need to buy the old ork flyer kit fast before the new one replaces it. I need one for a conversion.

>>46908350
Just remember boys and girls that they always need LOS for interceptor though, even with weapons that normally ignore LOS.

>>46908381
Every army had something against flyers, only reason they were good in 6e was because many armies were still in 5e and by the time they were updated we were in 7e.

Is this CSM list any good?

Kharn the betrayer 160 pts
9 chaos space marines with ccw-mark of khorne, icon of wrath, flamer+ccw, champ with power sword and plasma pistol - 207
Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-melta, extra armour and dirge caster - 72
11 Chaos cultists, one flamer, one shotgun, 61 points for 500 points exactly

>>46908381
Anti air options being added to every codex.

>>46908478
>options
>plural
That's not how you spell Aegis Defence Line.

>>46908381

Tau buffed
Eldar buffed
Space Marines buffed
Necrons buffed in way that doesn't encourage Scythe spam
Psychic phase with Invisibility
Vendettas nerfed

>>46908503
ADL was in 6th.

>word bearers are great at fighting!
>lost calth

>>46908527

IT WAS A SYMBOLIC VICTORY

>>46906621
most forge world shit is pretty underpowered/overcosted, actually. It's just a couple units that draw the eye, and give them all a bad name.

You've probably never even seen the majority of them fielded; that's because most are garbage. I love what some of them add to the fluff tho.

>>46908548
Fitting for a symbolic legion :^)

>>46907175
Crusades are easier against "the enemy". Assassins are better used against corrupted governments since Imperium would implode if they start crusades against its own which they do, but not as much as they could

2000 point 9th company task force rough build:

Chap tactics, Imperial Fists, using Angels of Death for force org shuffle.

HQ: Captain, dunno equipment.

Elites: 2x3 Centurion Devastators, 1 Rifleman dread of some sort.

Heavy support: 3x5 Devastator squads.

Troops: 3x5 tac squads in Razorbacks, standing in as combat squads from the Devastator units.

Thoughts?

>>46907486
>Warlord Trait: Never Give Up
Salamanders confirmed for John Cena legion.

>>46908633

>Warlord Trait: We're No Strangers To Love

>>46908633
They used to be able to opt to play an additional turn after the game ended to represent that.

It was pretty cool.

>>46908474
>plasma pistol
Never fucking ever.
Kharn in a rhino is a waste, he'll stand around doing nothing for way too long.

>>46907429
Biggest problem I see with Berzerkers is their attack profile. Sure they hit hard on a charge, but after that it's just 2 S4 attacks at WS5. If they fail to break the enemy on the first strike, they will take a sweet ass time to kill them

>>46908683
What options are worth taking for a marine champ, just a power wep/fist, and maybe combi wep?
How should kharn be played without a land raider? Sit him in a big squad of cultists or marines to use as meatshields?

Can Rough Riders be useful?
What about Krieg Death Riders?
Really I just want my warlord to be on a horse.

>>46908852
>inb4 boobs required

>>46908821
Against 4+ saves they are twice as good as their equivalents in chaos space marine points, which is about half the armies in the game.

>>46908852

Busty Anon here!

The Siege of Vraks book has a detachment with Obsec death riders as core choices, and a Death Rider Colonel and command squad as your mandatory HQ.

>>46908269
I'd wait a bit, in a week the new version of Death from the Skies drops with two new flyers and, supposedly, a bunch of aircraft formations.
Otherwise, the Stormwing is aces and provides you with a rugged assault transport that can deliver its load and then go of the fuck up tanks as well as a pair of great medium vehicle hunters/harassers/superiority fighters.
The Raptor Wing is also nice and would probably lend itself for conversions, with the land speeder being some sort of skitarii hoversled. The two stormtalons here have the same advantages as above, except arriving reliably and being better at wounding/penning.

>>46908852
rough riders are a gimmick

they can work, but don't count on it

>>46908852
Death riders are pretty great and are tougher than a guardsman.

I'm excited for dog fighting, but I think my Vendetta and Valkyrie are gonna get fucked in terms of fighters>Gunships>Bombers.

Vendetta won't be the best dog fighter anymore

>>46907474
but not at WS5.... which means their attacks hit most stuff at 3+

>>46908886

Are you really busty? Provide timestamped bust.

>>46908828

Nothing, melta bombs, or power maul (for non-power armor) or power sword (for power armored enemies). Axes and fists are too slow on someone who will ALWAYS be challenging.

>>46908933
>their attacks hit most stuff at 3+

News flash, nothing hits at better than a 3+ in close combat. That's literally the best you can get short of re-rolls.

>>46908906
Anyone who brings Rough Riders against me gets instant respect knuckles.

That's someone looking for a fun game.

>>46908927
Why not? I mean yeah Eldar flyers rape everything on the skies but 3 twin-linked lascannons is still good against flyers.

I hope they make the DE fliers non-shit

Just bought a bunch of Ravens to use as Corsair Nightwings too.

>>46908975

Marine vs. marine melee is usually 4+ so it is relevant to mention the 3+.

It's no different than mentioning something hits or wounds on a 2+ in shooting.

>>46908886
That's specifically the formation I'm looking at, yes. But it's expensive for a unit that is based on one of the most-maligned IG units. 2 Wounds is a big upgrade, but they still suffer from Hunting Lances being one use, don't they?

>>46908907
2 Wounds won't save them from T3 getting ID'd by S6, though. If you've run them, does that ever become a problem or am I overblowing it? It seems especially bad for an assault unit.

>>46908872
is this a meme

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>>46908975

>>46909001

Nevermind I just realized that guy thought 3+ was bad.

Kharn hits better than 3+ :^)

>>46908986
I think there is gonna be some maneuver behind mechanic that the vendetta is gonna suck at. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new phase even if only Eldar and Dangles benefit with their fancy jet fighters

>>46909006

Rough Riders and Death Riders are to be modeled as busty abhuman centaurs.

>>46909014
I forgot about Kharn, but the general point stands.

If there's an actual complaint for berserkers, its that a lot of their points are tied up in doing stuff that doesn't really help them

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AWWW YEAH ARE YOU SPACE COWBOYS READY FOR SOME DOGFIGHTING?!?!?!?!

>>46909006
>is this a meme
the inb4 or the boobs?
the answer is yes

I didn't know busty would actually show up.
>>46908872
>17:49:08
>>46908886
>17:50:03

Dogfight rules will probably be added to the rumored 8th ed, which makes me wonder if there'll be other changes. I hope overwatch gets changed to be triggered in the movement phase.

I wouldnt be surprised if we got another starter set for this "new" edition, most of the DV contents are now part of the main products.

>>46908882
IF you take axes. But because they are tricky to get into CC and if they fail to charge, they simply won't work or work badly for their intended purpose

Idk if they should have 5 attacks on the charge but they need A2 base

>>46908828
Meltabombs are cheap enough to throw on, and combi-weapons are useful, but you need a plan for them.
Powerfists cost 25pts. On a 1 wound guy with two swings. Think about that. Power weapons are slightly more reasonable, but even with those I feel like I'm getting ripped of.
Honestly, keeping your guy cheap and splurging on toys or boys elsewhere is generally the better idea.

As for Kharn without an Assault Vehicle: Don't. That may sound harsh, but it's fact. By the time he has footslogged across the table the ablative cultists will have evaporated and, assuming he survived so far without eating a battlecannon shell, Kharn himself has a baffling lack of Eternal Warrior/good invuln to keep him going. Yes, he is hell on wheels if he gets the charge, but if he never reaches melee that's a moot point.

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>>46908886
>>46908872
>>46908852
>>46908906
>>46908907
>>46908958
>>46908977
>>46909028
How can you niggers talk about Guard Cav and forget the one unit that makes them semi viable

Mukaali Rough Rider Squad bitches, T4 W2 nearly the same point cost and you don't need to play Krieger.

>>46909104
>another starter set
Weren't they rumored to have a box for all the (real) codexes?

What is missing?

>eldar
>dark eldar
>tzeentch /slaneesh daemons
>CSM
>DA
>BA
>GK

>>46909127
I don't think giving then 2 attacks base would be overpowering. 5 attacks on the charge is strong, but it's on a standard MEQ unit that's 20 points each if you try and buy decent weapons.

2 attacks base means they swing with 3 in subsequent rounds, which makes them better off than doing similar things with other CSM units.

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Fucking Hades cannon buff when? now or never GW, would be nice to ever consider using it in this lifetime

The flamer is gonna be worthless in a dogfight, unless vector strike somehow gets heavily improved you just know this guy is gonna be garbage

>>46909166
>Mukaali
>WS3
>1A
>65 points for 3 models, +20 per additional model
Yeah no.

>>46909181
>CSM
>BA
No anon, REAL codexes.

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So with this Death from the Skies book, will we see new fliers, besides the new Ork and Marines ones?

>>46909199
The cannon doesn't need to be buffed, all it needs is the ability to use those claws against other aircraft, and not just vector strike bullshit.

>>46909261
probably not, just updated rules for all of them like the first version of death from the skies.

>>46909261

Death from the Skies is already a book and we didn't get new shit from the original one.

>>46909265
>The cannon doesn't need to be buffed,

It's probably the most underused upgrade in the entire game despite being FREE. Tell me you've seen it in game. go on.

If it could just gain Twin-linked or something, a flier with a single gun at bs3 is pathetically weak.

>>46909199

FMC Heldrake when?

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>>46909246
>No anon, REAL codexes.
Damn.

But seriously they gave them to Tyranids and Orks. Eighth edition will fix the assault phase completely

>>46909379

Hmm...

Make it a FMC that can never land, but can charge other flyers and FMCs.

>>46909379
Oh that's a dream.

It was blatantly supposed to be more organic and fight on the ground if needed, i remember the concept art they showed in the WD.

Too bad it's static awkward pose and lack of hind legs doesn't suggest that

People talk about proxying CSM as Loyalist marines... How about proxying Tyranids as Daemons?

>>46909401
jump troops being allowed to assault flyers fucking when

>>46906302
>b-but muh new ceo
>muh starter boxes
>look theyre listening to customers

Wishful thinking. Nothing significant has changed.

>>46909401
More things should be able to charge flyers. Why can't Orks have a bunch of Stormboys fly up and crash into it?

>>46909391
>Eighth edition will fix the assault phase completely

In the same way that you fix a horse with two broken legs, maybe.

You used to see them against flyer spam, 'cause CSM has no other say of dealing with a lot of flyers.

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>>46909454
>>46909441
>tfw you fell for the Stormboyz can charge fliers rumour

I was so hyped.

>>46909440
>Tyranids as Daemons?
I have seen nids as proxy Daemons.

It was a Nurgle Army but his Screamers were converted gargoyles and his pink horrors were genestealers. There was a third one but i cant remember as this was about a year ago.

>>46909459

You can fix a Horse with two broken legs by swapping them for cybernetic wheels.

>>46909504
>One-piece chariots

>>46909441
Eldar can

>>46909489
Don't worry anon. Just run your stormboys as swooping hawks.

>>46909518
>Rusty Rough Riders

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How do I equip platoon command squads when the rest of the platoon is just one massive blob? Why the fuck didn't GW give the ability to slap them into the blob too? What's the point of having a fancy banner if it's gonna hang around with a bunch of guys who are too afraid to go anywhere because they'll get instantly rekt instead of it being in the middle of the massive wave of infantry storming across the field?

See how awesome this looks?

Anyway, PCS equipment, what do?

>>46909379
By the time GW accepts that they need parity in 40k it will be too late.

Why am I so obsessed with the idea of Reserve Company armies?

There's first and tenth company formations, but no assault company, Devastator company or tactical reserve company formations.

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>>46909454
>Tyranids will never be able to destroy Flyers by having broods of Gargoyles throw themselves into their engines

>>46909604
isnt there a new formation for assault and dev squads or something?

>>46909561
Stick them in a chimera and hum along behind the blob

>>46909604
Tell me about it. I eventually settled on making my chapter do a weird deviation from the codex so that they only use reserve companies, forming them into squads as needed.

I think the easiest to make would be an assault squad reserve army. Take Bikers as troops, then fill it out with other assault squads

Nurglings = Rippers.

Bloodletters = Genestealers?

Furies = Gargoyles.

Hive Tyrant = Greater Daemon.

Skarbrand = Swarmlord.

Flamers = Pyrovores.

Screamers = Raveners.

Soul Grinder = Trygon.

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I don't play the game, know the lore etc, can games of 40k be roleplayed rather than just done for mechanics/gamey reasons? As in a story line you can play through? Or do the mechanics inhibit a lore-friendly depiction of what combat and scenarios in the 40k universe look like

How far can RP be included in the gameplay?

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>>46908527
The Word Bearers themselves did quite well. It was only when FUCKING KOR PHAERON thought he could beat a PRIMARCH in close combat did shit hit the fan.

>>46909709
I'd say Daemonettes for Genestealers. Warriors could work as Bloodletters.

Venomthrope for something Nurgle, and Zoanthropes could work as a psyker herald.

>>46909732
Theoretically. There are campaign type games where you can focus on a series of battles, but that's still largely on the players.

Otherwise, there are quite a few 40k RPGs out there

>>46909772

Carnifexes can be Decimator Daemon engines from IA13, Daemons can take those.

>>46909561
Barebones order dispensers, cheap quad flamer support squad or sniper order dispensers.
It's best not to overcomplicate these guys. Keep them simple and they'll do work.

>>46909732
There are campaign's like >>46909802 said, and you can recreate battles from the lore or make up your own scenarios just fine but they'll take a bit of effort on your part.

>>46909732
>How far can RP be included in the gameplay?

Some people RP a bit, shouting 'WAAAGH!' and shit, but mostly that stuff is annoying.

If you want to RP in 40k, look to the FFG tabletop RPGs. There should be a /40krpg/ general, or at least there often is.

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>>46908246
I used to love the trygon, back when scything talons were actually unique and interesting weapons. Now I just proxy as mawlocs

RIP

>>46909732
>How far can RP be included in the gameplay?

We do scenarios and kill team when we want to be fluffy. this takes a cool playgroup of like minded people.

Our based "GM" will fluff up the scenario.

Example:

>3 weeks ago
Casual 2v2 between DA + SM v DE + Eld

>2 weeks ago
Eldar and Dark Eldar are assaulting a Space Marine Base. We had a ton of terrain and artillery to represent our entrenched base and the Xenos were invading from a jungle. We weren't allowed to leave the two tiles our base was on (until the flag was stolen) and they had to capture the flag and bring it to mid field.

>last week
1v1 Kill teams for DE v SM and Eld v DA

Basically was the a zoomed in version of the scenario where there was a ruined base, bunch of craters, and then a more thinned out jungle.

It ran really smoothly, most of us have multiple armies so we always change it up. Mostly just a story to go with a game. Makes it more fun.

>>46909673
>>46909813
So just jam them in a transport with vox and flamers?

Cool, close to what I do anyway because I'm a cheapskate.

Anyone have Z's email? Can't find the new one on yoyhammer.

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>>46910155
>Can't find the new one
That is the point.
He isn't taking new customers so if he hasn't or doesnt respond to you from his old one with the new one you are out of luck.

>>46910155
There ain't any way to contact him now, he have forsaken us all.

>>46909806
A Decimator is way worse than a Carnifex. Its a 3 HP walker, and is 250 fucking points for eight str 8 ap 4 shots.
It straight up fucking sucks. And its almost twice the height of a Carnifex, so not even a legit proxy.

>but it stands back up after it dies

If it gets glanced to death, and you then roll a 6. You tell me if thats worth proxying.

>>46910397
Carnifex might do better as a Great Unclean one.

>>46909561
Wait, the PCS banner doesnt affect the platoon, only the PCS? My opponent has been cheating if this is correct.

So then how exactly does a Commisar work? If hes attached to the PCS, does the platoon get the benefit, or only the PCS? My opponent uses one Commissar to support his PCS and 3 squad platoon.

>>46910466
commissar needs to be in the blob

>>46910417
no where near the size....

>>46910397

Well don't fucking take those guns, then.

Tzeentch and Storm Lasers works pretty well.

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>>46910534
Yeah your right, carnifex are way too big.

>>46910548

Khorne and no weapon swaps is pretty neat. 5 attacks and rampage on the charge with AP2 S9 Lightning Claws. Twin heavy flamer and deploy from deep strike too.

>>46910679

Nah, Nurgle. Shrouded and IWND.

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>>46909654
Came out last year.

>>46910050
BASED SHOOTER

>>46910155
He's overloaded with customers atm. Go with someone else like MI (don't use her site), CCON, heyyou etc

>>46909520
eldar getting something doesn't count

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>GW goading me into buying EVEN MORE FLYERS

For fucks sake I would have never predicted a new ork flyer. I wonder if the new flyer rules are going to be optional or not.

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>my dreadnought with twin-linked lascannon just 1-shotted a full-hp morkanout

What's the best way of transporting minis? I'm quickly accruing a lot of infantry.

>>46910968
And people say making 'Nauts superheavies wouldn't help them

>>46910901

Why don't you finish painting what you got before running out and buying more, ya jabroni

>>46910968

Is that supposed to be an achievement or something?

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>>46910901
>dat fucking killboy

Helll yeah, motherfucker!

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>>46910968

The look on your opponent's face must have been superb

>>46910982
How much lube do you have? cause you are gonna need to grease up a couple drop pods

>>46911027
Good ol' killboy

>>46911017
Ive finished killboy and 2 of the attack fightas, still need to paint the pilots though

>>46910968
Did the same with my laser destroyer rapier once. First thing i shot before the game started, the naut didnt even get to move. I felt really bad.

>>46910050
SHOOTER FOR PRESIDENT
BUILD WALL
MAKE WHEELS PAY FOR IT

>>46911035
He's a cool dude so he just laughed it off.

>>46911017


But, but anooooon, how will I take my painted minis to play a a game?>>46911017

>>46910968

Morkanaughts are universally known to be shitty though.

But so are Dreadnoughts (undeservedly so, they just have AV12 syndrome) so I guess there's that.

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What chapter tactics should my speshul snowflake Emperor's Children loyalists use?

>>46909732
You can make it auper fluffy if you want. Make up a scenario with the other person before hand, come with scenario lists, use in game obejectives like plant or deactivate nukes, have an escalating battle where each player starts with a kill team on the table, then brings in 500 points, then 1000, then 1500, etc.

I literally thought this up in 5 seconds.

Here's how to fix vehicles/make them like MCs. Remove one shot destroy. Only allow explosions as a roll result when the last hull point is removed. Make weapon destroyed/immobilized a very high roll on a penetration.

Basically you can no longer be one shotted and is much harder to be immobilized/weapon removed.

Maybe not the best fix but certainly better than the current "lol let's rape this vehicle fuckboy in both exhaust pipes" damage charts. Hur dur 400 point non-superheavy tank? Have fun being penetrated, immobilized, weapon removed, and then exploded.

When is Straken a good investment? Is he worth keeping around just for one 50 man guard blob? Is he worth his points at all? What if I throw in a bunch of ogryns on the side?

>>46910901
dude you post this picture every thread. what the hell?

>>46911268
AV12 can be fine.
Eldar tanks. Droppods.helldrakes.

>>46911299
>Emperor's Children loyalists
You're just using that as an excuse to paint pink marines.
Admit it you big girl.

>>46911377
>pink
Nigga did you even look at the image?

>>46911299
White Scars, Red Scorpions, Raptors

>>46911342
disagree. I don't disagree that something needs to be done. but it's a bad one.

First, because not all vehicles are unplayable. So we have a model for vehicles that work under the current system.

Second, High would high toughness MC are already seen as a problem in the game, so making more things like them is not a good thing.

Point cost adjustment, and change the table to 4-5 crew stunned with everything else going up one.

>>46911457
>First, because not all vehicles are unplayable. So we have a model for vehicles that work under the current system.

Name competitive vehicles that aren't cheap/free throwaways, superheavies, or flyers.

Pretty much you have to be AV13 (to prevent penetration) to be competitive. Otherwise you're a flyer, superheavy, transport, etc. And even then these AV13 vehicles like the Sicaran have amazing guns, or like the Eldar tanks have hover and amazing layered defenses.

There is no AV12 vehicle that's not a transport or underpriced or on a suicide mission/throwaway that's competitive.

You're calling high wound MCs a problem but vehicles are not HIGH HULL POINTS. They have 3 max in most cases.

>>46909546
>Busty Rusty Rough Riders

>>46911441
What about Black Templars?

>>46911370
Eldar shit has a passive ++ and most skimmers are supposed to be light.

Helldrakes are flyers and AV12 is the ceiling for non FW flyers. They also can be only hit with 6s normally.

Who the fuck cares about the Droppod

If you're a slow walker going up the field with AV12, you're gonna have a bad time.

>>46907380
>http://www.mediafire.com/download/js22o65ddluxb96/rules.pdf
AWESOME...THANKS!!

The problem with vehicles is cost, not stats IMO. Fragile but potent gun platforms is fine when they are costed like they are going to die instead of like long tern firepower.

If anything they should lower everythings AV by 1 and then drop their cost by half.

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>mfw my rich friend buys me the Tyranid swarm box because he hates playing everyone else on our group.

>>46911584
Just get rid of the 1-4 results on the vehicle penetration table and then make 6 weapon destroyed, 7 Immobilized and 8 Explodes!

>>46911511
I'd add vinidicators. and you just named 5 types of things that are good. So you're conceeding my point.

Because I didn't say that most vehicles are top end competative (though I give that consideration a lot less credit than most, but I digress). I said that there were vehicles that were fine. And you just admitted.

Cheap vehicles. Transports. Layered Defenses. Superheavies. extremely powerful guns. and AV13+.

So we've got a list of things that work. And you have somewhat of a point on the low level of hull points, but I'm not condecing that totally neutering the damage table is good.

>>46911549
>slow walker
so you're admitting that AV12 isn't the problem, it's AV12 + slow +no extra defenses.

and drop pods being annoying to take off the table is a thing in objective games.

>>46911530
>Trusty Busty Rusty Rough Riders

Is there a way to make Manticores scatter less, other than casting Prescience?

>>46911424
>Today, anon learned about his colorblindness

>>46911733
Drill a hole down halfway down the middle of a "hit" side of your scatter die.

>>46911723
Depends on which army.

I play Tau. AV12 is laughable to me. You might play CSM or non WAAC Marines and AV12 is a tough nut to crack for you.

So really it just depends on the opposing army.

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>>46911751
Wh-which anon, anon?

My terminator chaplain (age of sigmar lord relictor) came in the mail today. Such a gorgeous model. I wonder whether I am better off replacing the relic with a storm bolter or something, but the surgery to do that would be really difficult.

Also I have some AoS retributors. No idea what to field them as, but the models are lovely and they were cheap.

>>46911822
non-wraith Eldar.
firedragons do blow up basically anything, but relying on S6 shots to take down AV12 is not reliable.

and AV12 has done me pretty good when combined with good guns, being fast, and other defenses.

>>46911617
Stop shit posting

>>46912107
Go fucking paint your command squad.

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>>46911617
>tfw he just got you tyranids because he likes making you remove models off the table.

>inb4 the new ork flyer is the new helldrake

>>46911751
>>46911884
>mfw my R/G colorblind friend didn't know he was colorblind until he lost an argument with me about how an all-green map with darker greens for the selected country wasn't a red and green map

>>46911681

Vindicators aren't competitive.

>so you're conceding my point

No, retard, they are good DESPITE being vehicles was the point. The fact that you think HP3 = W8 and W10 shows how stupid you are.

>>46912171
>Go fucking paint your command squad.

Go paint your tyranids army

>>46911681

Give me one good reason why you should be able to one shot a 300+ point tank with a 10 point/free gun.

Why can't we one shot MCs without the incredibly rare Instant Death? Why can't we immobilize MCs? Why can't we blow off MC arms?

Name one good reason vehicles should have these disadvantages.

>>46912347
Because otherwise there'd be no way to systemically disadvantage chaos via unit types

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How do you guys think this list would hold up at Midwest Conquest?

Talon Strike Force

Demi Co

Captain w/ Arti Armor, Storm Shield, Thunderhammer, Auspex

2x 5 Tacs w/ Plasmagun + Pod
5 Tacs w/ Plasmagun + Rhino

Land Speeder w/ H. Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

3x Dev Cents w/ Grav Cannons, Hurrican Bolters, Omniscope
Raptor Wing (1)

Land Speeder w/ 2x H. Bolter
2x Stormtalon w/ Skyhammer Missiles


Raptor Wing (2)

Land Speeder w/ 2x H. Bolter
2x Stormtalon w/ Skyhammer Missiles


CAD

Librarian w/ Level 2, Auspex

2x 5 Scouts w/ Bolters

Drop Pod

2x Thunderfire Cannons


Do you think dropping the Plasma from a pod for a Flamer and giving the Scouts meltabombs is a good swap?

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Would it be possible to make this work as a 1,000 point Tyranid army? It's basically a Living Artillery Node with two Flyrants as backup. I haven't done the wargear yet, kinda unfamiliar tyranids, but the base point cost without upgrades (except the venom cannon necessary for the formation and flyrant wings) is 820.

2x Flyrant
2x Mucolid Spore Cluster

3x Tyranid Warrior - Venom Cannon
3x Biovore
1x Exocrine

>>46912416

Just make all the dinobots MCs then nerf the shit out of MCs. Easy.

Any rules show up yet for the mek bommer or whatever its called

>>46912329
you've confused both my points.
First, the first point was that vehicles can be good even under the current vehicles rules. You can try to change that to 'despite the current vehicle rules', but that doesn't change the fact that there are ways for vehicles to be good under the current rules.

Second. I never said HP3=W10 (which nothing competitive has anyways), I even conceeded that most vehicles are not actually high hull point.

>>46912347
because that tank is overcost. Because that tank can do so much with each turn of shooting that taking it down with a lucky strike is needed to balance it out.

High would MCs are a problem.

Because if the vehicle damage table is to be neutered to the degree suggested AV should be done away with entirely and everything should function of toughness and wounds.

>>46912779

The entire point of the change was to keep AV but have it be the same as turning every vehicle into an MC.

>>46912944
then propose a more moderate change.
Because stuff like 5+ to shake, 7+ to do anything permanant makes it seem like you just want it gone but aren't willing to pull the damn bandaid off.

The table is too strong right now, but if you actually want it around, it needs to still be scary at least with AP1 weapons. And that means a decent chance for permanant effects, and outright destruction. I started this by suggesting 1-3 shake, 4-5 stun, 6 WD, 7 immobilized, 8 explode.

I'd listen to other suggestions, but if explode isn't at least possible I'm going to be hard to convice you don't just want the table gone.

>>46906401
>dogfight phase
kill me now

>>46913086
Not him, but I'd suggest

1-2 nothing
3-4 shake
5 stun
6 WD
7 Immobilized
8 Explode, but only does d3 hullpoints instead.

>>46913086
>The table is too strong right now, but if you actually want it around, it needs to still be scary at least with AP1 weapons. And that means a decent chance for permanant effects, and outright destruction. I started this by suggesting 1-3 shake, 4-5 stun, 6 WD, 7 immobilized, 8 explode.

The whole fucking point of the change is to remove that because it's too strong, you moron. The ENTIRE problem of vehicles is the entire unit being made worthless by a simple penetration.

>>46913086
>>46913236

If you can't deal 3 wounds to a vehicle you don't deserve to kill it in one wound to begin with. This is a game with Riptides and Wraithknights.

>>46913289
>This is a game with [undercosted units]
>Therefore, [undercosted units] should be the focus that other options are balanced around, rather than fixing them.

>>46912464
Are your scouts infiltrating? Or are they backfield objective sitters?

>>46913326

People have been using your argument since 6E in regards to DA and CSM. CSM are still on 6E.

Look what's happened. Tau buffed. To a top book. Twice.

Eldar buffed. To a top book. Twice.

Praying for Tau and Eldar nerfs is stupid and unrealistic. The Wraithknight went to a GC for crying out loud. It makes more sense to argue for all vehicles going to superheavy at this point.

>>46913326

The fact that WKs exist means the proposed vehicle changes aren't ridiculous in the slightest. This is already Apocalypse thanks to Escalation. D weapons are everywhere. You can already one shot a tank without destroying or exploding it with a penetration.

>>46913389
If 7th edition didn't favor shooting so much Tau wouldn't be that good.

>>46913437
If the rumors of an 8th this year are true (I fucking hope not), what changes do you expect to reduce the focus on shooting?

>>46913389
Expecting anything at all to happen is unrealistic. It's not as though GW is watching this thread to use your suggestions about what to do about vehicles.

Breaking the game worse isn't going to make it better. Fix what the problem actually is.

>>46913257
Then admit that you want the table gone. If you don't want the permenant effects then the table should be gone.
Because shit like slowing things down or forcing snap shots is already handled by stuff like strikedown. If that's all you want the table to be able to do, then kill the table and have weapon qualitites, because then the overpowered MCs will get the hit they need too.

>>46913326
>I acknowledge that [extremely overpowered thing] exists
>but I refuse to believe [vehicle changes that do nothing to make vehicles better in any way other than not being instantly detsroyed] is reasonable for the game

Yeah, that's kind of how it works. This is a game with Riptides and Wraithknights. Even if you made vehicles unable to explode they still wouldn't be on that level, therefore you're a retard for thinking "vehicles can't explode is overpowered".