/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

chronicles of fagness

>>46863230
Still better than [your preferred system].

>>46863218
I've never cared to remember any character from a splat book's fiction. Then again I only recently started bothering to read the fiction.

Chronicles Of Hopefully Mage 2e Will Be Released This Week

>>46863218
I don't really care for any of their signature characters in any line. It's odd, but I'd never use an NPC or character from any of the sourcebooks or novels. I think it was because my first game was Requiem's New Orleans and I hated the fucking Prince.

>>46863469
For me half the fun (more than half really) is coming up with my own characters based on the rules and setting, so even looking at their characters is at best an example of what works.

>>46863469
It's more of a cwod than nwod thing.

Did anyone here make any pitches on their open call the other week? If so, what'd you pitch them?

>>46863325
>>46863469
It just says favourite character, not favourite character from the fiction.

>>46863739
What open call?

>>46863863
Like two Monday Meetings ago, they asked for pitches in the comments.

>>46863218
I like Ms. Storm/Evelyn, Mr. Shears/Billy, Carbon/Lane, Abe, and Ms. Lyne, from Demon: Interface

As far as favorite, though, I think I'd say Carbon/Lane, because of his ingenious Gadgets.

>>46864101
Hey, I read the first story of that.

My favorite character from the actual published stuff is probably Solomon Birch because he's the worst.

>>46856865
admittedly the description sounds way cooler.

>>46858939
literally who?

>>46863218
>Who is your favorite character?
idk Smiling Jack is Pretty fucking neato.

>>46864206

You should read the rest of it, Interface is pretty dang solid. Demon's got some great fiction as a line in general.

>>46863218
>Who is your favorite character?

I've yet to find one from the fiction that really grabs me, though I've never read any of the anthologies, so I might be missing out. For what it's worth, I like the Promethean iconics quite a lot.

My favorite of my own characters is still the Spring Court Beast Runnerswift, March the Mad Hare.

>>46863218
>Who is your favorite character?
Haven't really bothered reading any "canon" characters.
But my favorite of my own was Jill.
Thyrsus, Arrow Lumberjack who wandered off into the Canadian wilderness for weeks or months at a time, meeting/fighting Spirits/Cryptids.
Made some friends with Werewolves.
Had a child with one.

>>46863218
>Who is your favorite character?

I'm GMing, not playing, but my favorite NPC character is Khanem-Set, a Mummy conqueror who woke up and is constantly trying to rule the world in my Hunter game. He's wonderfully hammy (think Doctor Doom by way of Apocalypse) and is very fun to play.

>>46863218
Since we're also talking NPCs, my favorite one from my game, so far, is a bum. An Angel whose Cover is a bum, rather; he's named Willy, because his first appearance was in the police station, pissing his pants across the room from one of the PCs during her Prelude. He later showed up in an abandoned building they were investigating, and followed them around to make sure they didn't find something specific.
Next session, after the group talks for a bit, he's gonna show up and go ham on them in Angelic form

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>>46864507
Mah anarch.

Ive joined a mage the ascent 20th anniversary game and id like help understanding Rotes if anyone can explain them to me

What are the downsides, if any, of pursuing immortality via shedding your mortal form and becoming goetia? How easy is it to do?

Also curious about the same but for ghosts and spirits.

>>46868523
I don't know what this question means. Why must you people be so vague sometimes! This is a thread about over a dozen game lines spanning two major versions and several editions. I can't memorize every term by name!

>>46868572

Why not just wiki the terms? The White Wolf wiki's pretty comprehensive about terminology.

>>46868523
>goetia
Aren't those just slightly more dangerous tulpa (thought constructs) basically?

>>46868523
Presumably the constraints of being an astral being, stuck in the astral. Not being human anymore, not having a body anymore.

We'll know more when the 2e core is out.

>>46868523
Goetia is a summoned aspect of your personality.
A representation you use to give from to give life to aspects of yourself to come to a better understanding of your mind.
They're chunks of your mind, you cannot become one any more than you can become your hand.

Also becoming a Spirit isn't really possible bar Archmastery.

Becoming a Ghost? Why would you want to do that? You lose your connection to the Supernal, merely manifesting Numena which hold similarities to your old Supernal powers. No attempt to become a Supernal Ghost has ever succeeded. The soul just doesn't want to stick to Ephemera.

>>46868523
>How easy is it to do?
Becoming Goetia? Archmastery.

Becoming a Spirit? Archmastery.

Becoming a Ghost? Very easy.

>>46868825
Heck, I could become a ghost right now.

>>46863340
Mage 2ed will never come out...lol fag

>>46868825
>Becoming a Spirit? Archmastery.
or the Scions of God legacy

>>46868724

Goetia is the new word for all Astral creatures now.

>>46868724
>You lose your connection to the Supernal, merely manifesting Numena which hold similarities to your old Supernal powers.
They have paradox. They just resemble numina.

>>46868523
Why bother when you can get Immortality through LIfe 3? Just cast a spell to age backwards, like those jellyfish, and have it on you half the time. If you want, you can accelerate it with Time.

>>46869199
Or just cast a spell to halt your aging at a certain age, then spend the dot of willpower to make it permanent.

>>46869199
>someone dispels it
>you Ark of the Covenant rapidly age into dust

Yeah, nah. The best immortality optiobs for the Awakened that leave life as a mortal human behind.

>>46869269
Nope. Because the spell isn't changing your age, the spell is giving you the characteristic of a species of jellyfish. If the spell comes off, you just age normally. If the spell is on, you age in reverse.

It's the same way you can cast a spell to turn metal into putty, reshape it, and when it turns back it doesn't spring back into shape.

Or just make a clone and move your soul into it.

>>46869349
Or just steal someone else's body.
I was amazed that something so horrendously EVIL was a Free Council Rote.

>>46869499
Evil is a strong word.
Utilitarian

>>46869499
Well, of course. Nothing says the Pentacle has to be right-handed, or the Seers have to be left-handed.

Although doing something that is so very harmful to a human life is certainly unusual for the Free Council.

>>46869557
they don't all care about (all) human life
plus there's a lot of brain dead people you could probably use

>>46869499
I'm pretty sure it was developed during the Nameless War when they were being hunted and exterminated.

Stealing someone else's body is an extreme but effective way of going to ground. It's basically a Mage version of a Demon's soul pact.

>>46870250
The Nameless War sounds like a terrible name for a war.

>>46869199
As someone who's actually studied regenerative biology, there are reasons why humans don't have those mechanisms. On a human, it would make you incredibly susceptible to things like death via blood loss.

Humans can't grow our limbs back because or biological mechanisms prioritize keeping the body as a whole alive. "Just give me regeneration like a planarian" wouldn't cut it.

>>46870341
It was a war between the Diamond(Adamantine Arrow, Guardians of the Veil, Silver Ladder, and Mysterium) and the Nameless Orders(which would eventually re-assemble under the name 'Council of Free Assemblies', aka the Free Council), because the Diamond used to think that any Willworker not in one of their Orders was a threat, or something along those lines.

>>46870370
Sure. But this is Mage, not Biologist. You can use the same rote to make your skin glow by copying a firefly, or shock people by copying an electric eel, or stick to walls by copying a spider, even though those are impossible.

>>46870370
Except that's science, not magic.
Don't try to apply scientific logic to magic, it's never going to work. Magic is symbolic, especially in Mage, where the Supernal literally symbolizes everything.

>>46870404
"I can just become immortal via Life 3 because jellyfish" is attempting an exploit via real-world science, at which point you're going to have to account for real-world science.

Just like how most of the Matter-related exploits are attempting to exploit real-world chemistry.

>>46870419
No there's a spell that lets you get an aspect of other life forms, reverse aging is an aspect of other life forms

>>46870419
>>46870404
You can't use science for a spell, and then be like 'but this ain't science' when that backfires on you.

>>46870404
>>46870419
And by supernal logic, functional permanent biological immortality isn't just Life 3 "apply a trait from another organism". That's trying to do it via science.

At which point you have to deal with the drawbacks of the scientific version.

>>46870463
So explain how you can use that same spell to give yourself poison fangs like a snake and not die. I'm listening.

Another fun hack is to use Matter in place of Forces. By transmuting materials into high explosives, you can kill things much more easily than with normal Matter.

Another fun one is to use Space to portal people into literal space. Or open a portal in the direction of the sun and fry vampires. Can you say save or die?

>>46870509
This is exactly why talking about mage is annoying.

>>46870509
>And by supernal logic, functional permanent biological immortality isn't just Life 3 "apply a trait from another organism". That's trying to do it via science.
Not really, it's just like the stop aging for yourself one, but only using it during days off when you're not adventuring and stuff. Reversing your age for a day is basically the same as not aging for a day. It's not immortality, but it adds up.

>>46870426
>>46870457
>>46870463
>>46870509
Except he's not literally turning himself into a Jellyfish, he's mimicking a trait.
It's as simple as changing the symbol in your pattern that says 'ages' to one that says 'reverse-ages' for a day. Regardless of the science behind it, you now age backwards, and it works.

>>46870674
Not in a game with any half-way intelligent ST.
But whatever works in your games, fine.

>>46870724
Yes, half-way intelligent ST's keep track of exactly how much you age per day in the game and do not allow any foolishness to alter that amount.

We all add up the days that passed from your characters' first game (and their exact age upon starting) and at the end of the game, we tell you how old your character is, and we write it on top of the character sheet in permanent marker and file it with the ST MENSA so everybody knows you didn't try to become immortal for a game that took place over the period of six months.

>>46870724
I half-way intelligent ST isn't going to try to apply regenerative biology to game about fucking magic. They're going to roll with what makes sense, because it's not about being realistic, it's about having fun.

By the logic you're trying to force on the game, nothing is possible, because there's no scientific way for a human being to sprout fangs, or turn into a wolf-hybrid, etc.

Now take your autism somewhere else, and stop thread-shitting.

>>46871031
Unless the game doesn't take place over six months. You know, the sort of situation that would lead a player to try to become immortal in the first place?

>>46871072
Absolutely. In the case of a game that spans 1000 years, we demand every player find the age of natural death for people of whatever culture their character came from, and they will never live longer than that. Then they must make entirely new characters.

We file the dead character sheets in with ST MENSA too, to make sure they know, and we know, and they know we know.

>>46871122

What the fuck, I've been running games for years, where's my ST MENSA membership?

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>>46863218
Would Scanners be good inspo for Mage? Perhaps they're all Mastigos mages,fucking with each others' heads?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoIy7Y7H72Q

>>46862509
Interlocks aren't really Demon's Z-splat; Z-splats, going off all the examples we have(Bloodlines, Legacies, Lodges, Athanors, Kiths, any others I'm missing), are something there is at least some chance you share with someone else, either joining the group, coming from the same sort of background, or being shown how to craft the athanor. Interlocks, though? They're wholly unique, and no 2 Demons will have the same one.
Interlocks are just a unique homebrew power. Demon doesn't have a Z-splat.

>>46871699
Wouldn't it be Agencies? But like Geist OP decided to go 'lel make your own! Because reasons.'

>>46871755
Actually, yeah, I guess Agencies are the closest equivalent.
I always forget they exist.

>>46871699

I see Z-splats as being a kind of prestige class that grants access to specialized powers, so through that point of view I see them as being a Z-Splat, just one that's more personalized than Bloodlines/Lodges/Legacies/Athanors/Entitlements.

>>46871755

There's at least examples of Agencies, though. That's better than Geist, which has no real examples of Krewes whatsoever.

>>46871901
But that's because Krewes are so ephemeral and local, so there aren't any true examples. Isn't that quirky and unique? tee hee!

>>46870564
Except for your wrong your could not teleport other people with space in 1E. As Dave has mentioned in the last thread and I believe portals need the persons consent to go through.

>>46872156
>Make a big portal beneath someone leading to somewhere not that bad
>They don't know it's there and therefore don't consent to going through it
>They're left walking on air
>Even if they're a Sleepwalker/Proximi or another Mage

This is some disgusting applications of oWoD Disbelief

>>46872218
Hey thats what I recall being told by this thread about portals.

>>46872156
That's not how it works. SOMEONE has to be trying to send them through, such as by pushing them into it. They can't just get sucked through by pressure differences (like space, or the bottom of the ocean).

>>46872475
The important thing is, can gravity pull them through?

>>46872475
Not the guy whos saying that making a portal underneath someone will work.
I was saying I didn't.

Is there a time limit/downside to being in Crinos form in W:tA 20th Anniversary? Aside from the obvious social drawbacks, anyway.

Which nWoD game is best to make my fursona in?

>>46872824
Changeling.

In werewolf (or the mostly hated Shifters) you would be a human most of the time.

In changeling, you can be a furry, and while everyone else would see you as a weird human, you are actually that furry at all times, and see yourself like that in the mirror. Plus you can choose certain people to reveal your furry self to.

Changeling is best furry game.

>>46872824
>>46872858
Werewolf with the Father's Form gift for a Wolf, Changeling for anything else

>>46872858

I mean, the one Changeling game I was in was like 50/50 between drama and furry sex.

>>46873219
That sounds about right. Changeling is all sadness and drama (or pretending there is no sadness and drama). The furrysex is just because of the natural audience of WoD. I say this as a member of that audience.

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>>46872824
>fursona

>>46873219
>furry sex.
Why do DMs allow this? I have heard of Magical Realm games but somehow I have always managed to avoid being in one

>>46873941

We were mature enough to have sexual relationships between our player characters? They were all fade to black.

>>46874177
If someone was going to bang my character, I would make them roll to seduce. They have to earn it!

>>46874177
im sorry but the term furry sex does not fill me with confidence.

>>46874177
>TFW my old group could have never been anywhere near this mature
>TFW they weren't even mature enough to let my guy have a relationship with a male npc
>TFW the only time any PC ever got into a relationship with an npc in our games, it was the same two people on either side, and it was never a happy relationship

Sometimes, I wonder why I didn't yell at them to just fuck already.

>>46874272

My character was the Cowardly Lion as a blustering veteran with serious survival guilt.

He was a handsome lion man and I enjoyed playing him very much.

>>46870674
There will probably be a bunch of weird side effects from that.

I mean, what is aging? In a symbolic way of thought it probably also includes stuff like growth and healing. So your character has to get older in order to recover from a wound, and reverse aging past a wound might make you suffer the penalties from that wound, even if it can't kill you.

>>46874355
>>46874355
>He was a handsome lion man and I enjoyed playing him very much.
I would enjoy playing werewolf a lot more if there wasnt so much furfaggotry.

>>46874343
My relationships in games...
>An arranged marriage one time
Not too much.
Though I have a player that has managed to date a totally-not-evil Tremere, and a hot werewolf man.

Another had the hots for the sister of another packs alpha, so you can imagine that went well.

Forever GM life, I remember being the waifus and husbandos more than I've had waifus and husbandos.

>>46874461

See, that's what gets my foot in the door! You have beefy wolf people killing things and you have neat mythology behind it all and the only hard part is all the fiddly spirit parts.

>>46874491
I just want to play legitimately awesome scary things.
Like when I think of werewolf I think of this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Pq8sTFmvw
Depressing and confusing

I had a strange idea for a Bloodline that is inspired by, well, Twilight.

They're a Daeva Bloodline that dropped Celerity for Resilience. Their Bloodline Bane means that they start with their Humanity being one dot lower (Read: closer to their Beast.) than anyone else. Also if they fail to indulge in their Vice, then the Beast indulges it for them...Mechanically this is represented by a loss of Willpower and a Breaking point towards Beast.

>>46874542
What makes you say this is inspired by twilight?

>>46874542
Twilight vampires are pretty good tbqh its just that the books themselves are bad. In the books they are shown to be made out of a diamond like substance. Maybe using Resilience could make them shine like diamonds like they do in sunlight?

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>>46874534
>fight giant spiders and killer machines
>dig rats out of the chests of gangbangers and hunt down vampires
>howl along the deranged horrordise that is the shadow as you bring down the city spirit so it knows its place
People have the weirdest wrongest ideas about werewolf.

>>46874843
Do Forsaken know they're the bad guys?

>>46874859
They aren't, at least not as a whole. Some misguided forsaken try to "help" humanity by killing threats to it and terraforming the environment like schmucks.

>>46874859
>WoD
>Good guys

>>46874660
That's kind of what I was getting at with them, The other idea they had was that they perceive themselves to be flawless like diamonds no matter what it is they are doing...this can pose some problems when they eventually hit 0 Humanity because even after they stop being Vice-driven monsters, they don't really take the hint that they have a problem.

>>46874565
It's like this anon said>>46874660, also one of their Unique Bloodline abilities is a Resilience+Majesty thing and it can best be described as 'Hold Space to Edward.' (They literally turn themselves into sparkly chick magnets.)

>>46874993
sounds a bit like deucalion

but vampires don't have vices

>>46874542
But why drop celerity? Twilight vampires were capable of extreme speeds. Besides bloodlines can give them a fourth discipline, there is no need to replace any of the base discipline.

>>46874993
i always figured the sparkling thing as a negative.
Like if edward is a wolf among the sheep then him sparkling is him holding a Neon sign over his head that basically says "I am not one of you"
I would just make maybe resilience stronger or more resistant to sunlight damage but make it super obvious and have it be a Masquerade violation (i forget what the nWoD version of Masquerade is)

>>46875075
>i forget what the nWoD version of Masquerade is
its still the masquerade

>>46875091
huh for some reason I thought they changed it since they dont have the Camarilla as a uniform government any more.

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>>46875113
it isn't but the concept is still pretty important
for difrent reasons though
personal protection, not protection of vampires as a whole

>>46875142
>Making rules knowing full well you intend to break them

Oh vampires.

>>46875142
well my original suggestion still makes sense. Its what I would do if it was my idea.

>>46875170
like every law ever they exist more as a strong sugestion and arbiter of what bad is

>>46875062
Oh...uh...I never knew you could take a fourth Discipline...whoops. So that would be the Daeva core Disciplines AND Resilience then, wouldn't it?

>>46875210
name it something new.
Like Diamond Is Unbreakable

>>46875239
Uh no.

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>>46875239
You leave my JOJO out of that twilight heresy.

>>46875303
We gotta keep with the diamond theme tho

>>46875370
its technically a Twilight INSPIRED vampire game.

Also how do we make stands? Geists?

>>46875381
Geist is generally the agreed upon method, yeah.

>>46875411
is geist really Combat Heavy enough to be JoJo tho?

>>46875418
Combat-specced Sin Eater will threaten a werewolf

>>46875418
Its has enough weird combat powerd to work for jojo.

>>46875418
Certain Geist builds can be combat gods.
Plus, I mean, you are harder to kill than anyone else, so you have that going.

Plus, more important than being combat heavy, they can do crazy weird stuff that no one would ever think to do.

>>46875435
everything threatens a 1E werewolf, anon

>>46875452
I meant 2e

>>46875435
its not hard to threaten 1e werewolves

>>46875460
geists aren't in 2E, anon

>>46875466
But werewolves are, and geists have GMC

>>46875468
>geists have GMC
no they don't

>>46875478
A 1e Geist will challenge a 2e Werewolf if both built to combat spec and Geist use the GMC rules update to cover the differences between the two editions.

There, I spelled out exactly what I was saying because clearly English is not your first language.

>>46875478
>>46875468
>>46875466
>>46875464
This is dumb. It is easy to crossover 1E and 2E content. Anon meant 2E. Just stop and continue the actual conversation.

>>46875490
Anon, GMC isn't built to completely translate Geist. It doesn't really work that way.
If you're comparing power levels with Geist, you have to do it with 1E.

>>46875494
no shut up

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>Furfags getting BTFO

>>46875494
>This is dumb. It is easy to crossover 1E and 2E content.

No, it's not. They're totally different systems; combat, damage, and status effects all work totally differently.

>>46874272
Why does what other people do in their games bother you? It's not like they were upending the setting for something stupid like a Changeling where no one was abused. People in that world are going to have sex.

>>46875490
Well I guess we'll go on without >>46875508 and >>46875498

But yeah, I don't know if Jojo would ever work well in CofD, since it is pretty fight heavy, and of course that isn't the focus of things. Plus, you know, fist fights are an atrocity in both 1E and even more so in 2E.

>>46875565
I just always find sex in games especielly between PCs to be super cringy.

how does a Geist fight?

>>46875567
Well both are indeed of the horror genre. They both have great focus on story and drama. So yay I think it works out well.

>>46875630
its not so much the fighting, they have easy access to aggravated damage (the only kind that really matters to werewolves)

>>46875637
Yup they only needed to bring up the pyrorage up to 4 to let them do aggravated damage at range for the cost of only 1 plasem.

>>46874542
>>46874993
That Bloodline Bane is terrible. And also doesn't really work. Clan Banes (and so Bloodline Banes) don't actually come into play until you drop to Humanity 6, at which point they're permanent. You'll probably want them to have a Bane where they have to roll to resist Frenzy when they pass up a chance to indulge their vice if given the opportunity, with the roll for that type of Frenzy capped at Humanity (like a Gangrel); or, simply that they suffer a Breaking Point if they don't indulge in their Mask or Dirge. (Or you could give them a Vice, mortal style, as their Bloodline benefit. I know I've got a Ghoul who has three Vices).

If you want them to Frenzy and have a Breaking Point, I'd suggest Frenzying only if they fail a Breaking Point roll in response to not indulging in their vices. Losing Willpower in that case would be a bit harsh, especially since they'll want to spend Willpower to resist the Beast.

>>46875075
Have it where they can use their Resilience against the sun, but doing so means Awe is automatically triggered and anyone who sees knows it's a supernatural affect (so they take a Breaking Point), even if you've got no social penalties from being obviously supernatural. Or just don't bother translating that bit; it is the thing everyone hates, after all. Dresden Files vamps are similar, but done so much better, because when they get all opalescent, it's because their Hunger is coming to the forefront and they're tapping into it's power.

>>46875418
Phantasmal Rage ●● creates a second fighter to attack people with it's own dice pool equal to the successes on your huge dice pool. At ●●● it causes someone to deal their own Strength in damage to themselves when they sleep, ●●●● means anyone hit by it has to roll Resolve+Composure to do anything but run away from you. ●●●●● means you add the victim's own Strength as a bonus to the Geist's roll.

>>46875584
So? Roleplaying in general is super cringey when you get right down to it, but you're within the Magic Circle.

>>46875630
Several ways.

>>46875755
Thank you for unfucking my terrible idea.

>>46875855
No problem. I like seeing people do Homebrew, and I like helping their Homebrew be the best it can. Also, it's worth noting that giving them a Vice and making it harder for them to avoid indulging it is basically a more meaningful version of the original Daeva flaw, only here you want them to Frenzy instead of lose a point of Willpower.

*Having* an extra flaw is also a pretty decent start to a 2e Bloodline benefit, since it creates an outlet for more Willpower gain. You could just say they have a Vice, or you could give them the Vice Ridden merit.

I don't really know what you're going to do with them otherwise, or even if you plan on even thinking them out, but I'd say a Social Style related to Vices might be good. Stuff like a more powerful version of Taste of the Serpent (from the Ghoul section).

Also, now I want to play my 3 Vice Ghoul for real. She has Vanity as her normal Vice, then Vice Ridden for Masochism, and as a Ventrue Ghoul she's got one upping someone in competition through Taste of Gold.

>>46876136
>She has Vanity as her normal Vice, then Vice Ridden for Masochism, and as a Ventrue Ghoul she's got one upping someone in competition through Taste of Gold.
Are there any other ways you could glue Vices onto her?

Poking through the Mediafire in the Pastebin, there's one download in a folder called Epitaph for what seems to be a quarterly newsletter that never really happened.

I can't really seem to find any more info on that.

>>46876500
Not that I know of, at least not permanently. Though the few times I've played her freeform, she's been fun.

>>46876542
>at least not permanently
Fair enough, I guess if any other Spirits of a certain Vice tried to hop onto her the giant mass of tentacles, piercings, leather and pinty things would probably eat them...that is what Vice-Ridden means, right?

>>46876638
No, it's a Merit.
●● and you get an additional Vice.
There's also Virtuous, which is an addition Virtue.

>Virtue (Devotion) Chastity pours her all into tasks she's assigned, doing them to the best of her abilities.
>Vice (Vanity) The Princess is better than you in every conceivable way. Only her Lord is better.
>Vice (Taste of Gold) As one of the Ventrue's ghouls, Chastity regains willpower as if she filled a Vice when besting someone in competition
>Vice Ridden (Masochist) Being a Ghoul is all about testing your limits. How far you can jump, how hard you can hit, how much pain you can endure.

>>46863218
>Who is your favorite character?

Saulot-Sama

>>46873198
Only if your fursona is a wolf.

>>46878427
>for a Wolf
>Only if your fursona is a wolf.
Yes, thank you for repeating what I already said

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How many enemy combatants is too many enemy combatants in a single V20 encounter?

>>46879657
considering the shit that the rule system is, any more than the # of players

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>>46879767
Makes sense. I'm going into Substitute Storyteller mode, and so far the primary Storyteller hasn't exceeded five opponents, and that tussle went alright.

I'm just thinking about shovelheads, mostly. I want to convey Mass Embrace 28 Days Later Vampire Rapist Attack, but I know that shit will bog down if it's literally a fight against a dozen dudes.

>>46879801
Have one fight, then another fight? Like, same 'encounter', but have the next round of baddies arrive after the first are wiped?

>>46880968
Something like that could work. Plus spreading out the potential dangers keeps the tension up.
Little scrabbly gangs coming out of the black of night all of sudden like.

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>Mages break into a Beast's Lair

It's my birhday!

:D

>>46881886
why haven't you killed yourself yet

>>46881931
because you havent

>>46881886
Man, usually I don't comment on things like this, but if that isn't the definition of a tripfag, nothing is. "Here's some info completely unrelated to the thread at hand, please look at how special I am!"

Happy birthday.

>>46881598
Poor shitty Beast then...Beast is the worst splat and Mage is the most powerful.

That Beast is gonna get smoked.

>>46882039
I didn't think one if the places beast was lacking was power.

>>46881598
>>46882039
>>46882199

Read DaveB's short story in the Beast Fiction Anthology. It's a Mage / Beast / Bastet crossover where they break into a beast's lair in the Astral.

>>46883201
But then I would need to look at the Beast fiction anthology

>>46883519

True, but the story is worth it, and it's just as much a Mage story as Beast. The PDF is also easy to find.

>>46883201

The mage better win

>>46883816
It's a team effort.

>>46883816

The mage does just fine, and is a very fun character in the story. How can it be any different with Dave as the author?

Obligatory "Mage 2e When?".

So, I've been looking at Inferno and Werewolf 2e and noticed something: Malapraxes make it way easier to be proactive than Umia/Ilithum do.

I'm pondering ways I might rig up a quick and easy system for spirits to be given motives. Start with their nature, and then choose a way for it to manifest; that's then able to be summed as a statement.

For example, Water/River Elemental may have a Destructive motive; wanting to wash away any and all obstructions. Or it could have a Constructive motive, trying to carve out new paths for its river. Or it could be Protective, wanting to eliminate certain influences on its river.

But that's the broadest set of categories that spring to mind for motives. I need more.

Anyone got any?

>>46883816
The group wins. But Dave has mentioned that the Enemy Beast was by far more powerful then any individual of the group.
The only reason they won was because the bastet was Immune to most of the Beast Powers sense she had a animal soul.

>>46884598
More stupid Changing Breeds shit. I thought they'd sweep it under the rug and forget it exists.

>>46884476
>So, I've been looking at Inferno and Werewolf 2e and noticed something: Malapraxes make it way easier to be proactive than Umia/Ilithum do.
yes
the thing is, spirits already have easy access to the world, they are right next door in the shadow
spirits of inferno are way long distance relatives who only rarely visit and, when arrive, can't travel around as easy

>>46885173
>Still buttmad at Changing Breeds
get over it, the book is fun.

>>46883201
Is the Beast Fiction Anthology released yet? For non-backers, I mean.

>>46885456

The Beast Fiction Anthology has not yet been released for non-backers. It's only an advance PDF.

Nevertheless, it's widely available. Download it now, and then it you want to show your support, buy the final version with errata, ePub and Mobi and PoD options when it's officially released.

>>46885337
The book is a train wreck of shit.

>>46886309
It has cool mechanics and a lot of options for other sorts of shifters.

>>46886449
>Changing Breed
>cool mechanics and a lot of options for other sorts of shifters.

Sure, if by "cool" you mean furry escapist fantasy wish fulfillment.

>>46886525
I... I don't think you know what mechanics are.

Does anyone else want to run a game, but you can't figure out what will interest you enough to stick with it for six months?

>>46886449
I think you're thinking of War Against The Pure. Changing Breeds has terrible mechanics where a wereelephant can stomp out a Archmage and all the fluff is sex, literal shit, and furry fantasies.

>>46886717
>can stomp out an archmage
I'd like to see the crazy whiteroom where that is possible.

But everything woof related is just furry fantasies, I don't see why Changing Breeds gets singled out.

Hey kids, remember in Wolf 2E, the wolfblooded ability that makes all wolves wanna yiff with you?

And then they took away the reason for Forsaken not to bang each other, so you can have your werewolf orgies.

>>46863218
Nicodemus from the nosferatu splat also Alice I believe her name was from the gangrel splat.

>>46886809
>But everything woof related is just furry fantasies, I don't see why Changing Breeds gets singled out.

Because Changing Breeds is repeatedly going on along the lines of "man is eveil!!1 only animals good!"

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>>46885337
yeah, having sex with animals is fun

>>46887138
>Anon posts a sidebar to say a complete product is bad
>In /wodg/
Man, this always works, every time.

>>46886717
>and all the fluff is sex, literal shit, and furry fantasies.

Wat

>>46887138
Oh my God.

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>>46887288
Have some literal shit and encouraging your character to shit instead of speak!

>>46887288
By all the fluff, they mean there is a specific example of each of the first two things, and then everything else in the book qualifies as 'furry fantasy' by virtue of it being shapeshifter stuff in general.

Of course this is all to mask that anon has probably never actually read the book, and just has the same snippets posted from it as anyone else. They've never used the mechanics in it to build a PC or NPCs. They just know that you /wodg/ shits on Changing Breeds. After this they will meme about Mage Supremacy, hating Beast, and gay werewolves.

>>46887332
I tried to like it when I saw all the bad reviews on it elsewhere, but it keeps droning on about the ANIMAL INSIDE YOU and MAN THE DESPOILER! How you're really an ANIMAL ON THE INSIDE and shifting is now you show your TRUE SELF! The same shit people hate on Beast over, pretty much, on top of all the talk on sex, shit, and pansexual weregoats.

So, Mage 20th rules help badly needed - I'm having a real hard time figuring out how to handle the mechanical effects of players with lots of prep time.

Like...say you have a Hermetic with Arete 3, Forces 2, Correspondence 2, and Entropy 2. They have a chantry, two mundane assistants, a few guns, maybe a thousand dollars, and two days to build up spells on themselves and their friends for a raid on some supernatural baddies (vampires, or Nephandi, or 'crat puppets, or something like that). What is reasonable for them to put on themselves (Bullet deflecting? Stat-increasing? See-through walls glasses?) and how does that cash out mechanically (reduced diffs? auto-success? extra dice?)

The Mage 20 book is incredibly unhelpful when it comes to making specific mechanical judgements.

>>46868628
Why not preface with line, at the very least? Then I know whether or not any of the following words will make any fucking sense to me prior to going through it.

>>46887479
What? People hate Beast because it is about being a complete asshole and THEN calling yourself the good guy for it.

On top of bad mechanics.

None of that applies to Changing Breeds.

>>46886717
>wereelephant can stomp out a Archmage
wat

>>46887564
There was also some otherkin shit from the kickstarter draft before they introduced the concept of the Devouring.

The violent antisocial asshole you've always been is the REAL YOU and you become a Beast by recognizing and embracing your TRUE MONSTER SELF and FUCK ANYONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO LET YOU BE YOU.

>>46887591
I mean, I guess...
It is hard to keep track of everything people hate about Beast. lol

>>46887138
They're addressing an elephant in the room. Aren't people always complaining that the things in the WoD sidebars aren't about worldbuilding and thus have no place? That's worldbuilding.

>>46887312
Again, worldbuilding. Do you just not understand how animals work?

>>46887479
The tone of the book is a legitimate reason to not like it. So is the fact that the mechanics are strung together without any serious playtesting. Those are why I hate the book. "It has sex and marking territory with poop and other animal things" isn't really a good reason.

>>46887843
Oh yeah. I mean it is possible to make some great characters.

But It is like Playing a Mutants and Masterminds character next to a DnD character. Sure both of them use D20, but your point buy system can lead to a lot of trap choices or being totally OP, if you know what you're doing.

But still, the book is super useful, poop and all.

Couldn't oWoD or nWoD changing breeds learn actual mage spheres? Or do I have it wrong?

>>46887899
I think one of them had weremonkeys that could learn Mage-like shit, yes.

>>46887899
nWoD Changing Breeds can learn mage magic, yes. But doing so limits their capability in the Changing Breeds capacity, and they have to learn each spell as an ability instead of just stringing stuff together at random.

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WHY IS THIS ROLL SO FUCKING INSANE. YOU CAN'T EVEN DEDUCE THE INFLUENCES OF RANK 1 SPIRITS WITHOUT GETTING EITHER A CHANCE DIE OR SPENDING WILLPOWER. I HOUSERULED IT TO WITS+PRIMAL URGE BECAUSE HOLY SHIT.

>>46887964
>Roll Primal Urge - the spirit's Resistance
Spirits having Resistance stats of like 8-15 is not uncommon.

This is nuts.

>>46886809
>But everything woof related is just furry fantasies, I don't see why Changing Breeds gets singled out.
Because nothing in werewolf is furry, and Changing Breeds isn't in Werewolf
>Hey kids, remember in Wolf 2E, the wolfblooded ability that makes all wolves wanna yiff with you?
It makes people who've been near you want to keep being near you.
>And then they took away the reason for Forsaken not to bang each other, so you can have your werewolf orgies.
People had problems with that, but there's still no werewolf orgies, you're thinking of Werewolf the Apocalypse.

>>46888021
>Nothing in werewolf is furry
Everybody look at this guy

>>46888113
Their anthropomorphic form doesn't even have genitals.

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The Mage I fed my blood too is at a Stage 1 Vinculum.

Should I bump it to the next level or would that make her not nearly as useful?

>>46888217
Would make her more loyal, always nice to have a mageslave.

>>46888258
Also might override her basic personality and principles and make her /too/ reliant on my character

>>46888296
Not at level 2. Hell, at no point is their personality "overridden" unless their personality is "I don't like anyone"

>>46888296
Last thing you need is a Mage being too Magey.

>>46888308
Level 3 vinculum makes them pretty much slaves that only think of their Kindred

>>46888310
>>46888258
Good call bruhs. I'll have to sit her own and think of a good explanation on why she needs more to drink. Maybe do a spiel about how romantic it is and soul mates.

Just want a good contact in that part of the world, you know? Never hurts to have an Obrimos as a thrall

>>46888421
Would the new magesight be able to tell someone is a Thrall with active sight? Would you need to have a specific school of magic to be able to tell?

>>46888467
>starting this argument

Thread consensus LAST I KNEW was that the Mage would see something going on but wouldn't know what it was unless they were super informed about the fangs.

But then those mage posters got mad that someone implied Mages didn't know everything at all times and that the community isn't incredibly insular and helpful to every other Mage

>>46888467
>Would the new magesight be able to tell someone is a Thrall with active sight?
Maybe not a thrall specifically (which might require Scrutiny), but it could definitely tell that something is up, so long as they had Death or Mind.

>Would you need to have a specific school of magic to be able to tell?
Death would be able to feel the Vampire's lingering influence over them, and Mind would be able to feel the warping on their mind. Not sure any other arcana would pick something up.

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>>46888421
>Level 3 vinculum makes them pretty much slaves that only think of their Kindred
It just gives them another obsession, similar to a mage's obsession with mysteries.

>>46888467
>Would the new magesight be able to tell someone is a Thrall with active sight?
If they looked deep enough
>Would you need to have a specific school of magic to be able to tell?
Yes, and even then knowledge to tell what it meant

>>46888502
I wasn't starting an argument, I was asking a question. I guess I missed that thread, lol. Calm down buddy, I'm here for you.

I only asked because I wondered how long an undercover mage would last back in the mage community. Though hey, their particular circle may not be in constant consilium contact (and you can even make sure of that with some manipulation) so you could extend the time until someone tries to figure out what is wrong with them.

>>46888467
Active Sight always uses specific Arcana.

Active Mind Sight would be able to tell if: A) you've seen someone under vinculum before using Focused Sight, since Active Sight lets you recognize stuff you've studied before, or B) you have the Supernal Taxonomy Merit and you've seen a similar effect before (e.g. a Mind-Arcanum-based "you are now my slave, you love me" effect). The Supernal Taxonomy merit is designed to let you play a Mage who makes intuitive leaps like that without needing lengthy study.

>>46888502
>>46888467
Passive Magesight won't see anything, because it's not an active affect
Active Magesight will give you the notion that something is wrong, and you'll likely have some sense that it's mind control/addiction related.
Focused Magesight is what you'll need to fully understand that this is some kind of an addictive mind control that creates a strong bond of subservience to a specific person. It might even tell you who that person is, or at least where they are, if you use Space.

>>46888512
Is Scrutiny still a thing? Or does it have a different name?

>>46888623
>Is Scrutiny still a thing? Or does it have a different name?
Focused Mage Sight.

>>46888567
>he Supernal Taxonomy Merit
The what now?

>>46888648
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxveHUKxwBU9ejlGcDYtN3hZTWs

Merit: Supernal Taxonomy (••)
Prerequisites: Intelligence ••, Occult •••
Effect: Your character possesses a deep, intuitive understanding of Active Mage Sight. When she observes a phenomenon similar in either effect or origin to one she has previously Scrutinized, she can recognize the similarity. For example, a mage who has previously Scrutinized another mage's Psychic Domination spell, upon seeing the victim of a vampire's Dominate Discipline, would recognize the effect as some sort of mental control. If instead she saw someone under the effects of the Augment Mind spell, she would recognize the signature of Awakened magic. If she's Scrutinized the Signature Nimbus of another mage, she can now see it with Active Mage Sight rather than having to Scrutinize.

>>46888648
Newest Signs of Sorcery spoiler clarifies on this a lot.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxveHUKxwBU9ejlGcDYtN3hZTWs/view

>Active Mage Sight allows a mage to study her surroundings through the lens of her Path and the Arcana she knows. It makes plain supernatural beings and phenomena and reveals the nature of things under her Arcana's purviews. It does not offer insight into the nature or function of the Mysteries a mage observes — that's the role of Focused Mage Sight — but if the mage has encountered the phenomenon and successfully Scrutinized it before, she can recognize it with Active Mage Sight. A mage who has previously Scrutinized the victim of spirit possession, for example, recognizes the telltale signs when she sees someone else possessed by a spirit.

>Merit: Supernal Taxonomy (••)
>Prerequisites: Intelligence ••, Occult •••
>Effect: Your character possesses a deep, intuitive understanding of Active Mage Sight. When she observes a phenomenon similar in either effect or origin to one she has previously Scrutinized, she can recognize the similarity. For example, a mage who has previously Scrutinized another mage's Psychic Domination spell, upon seeing the victim of a vampire's Dominate Discipline, would recognize the effect as some sort of mental control. If instead she saw someone under the effects of the Augment Mind spell, she would recognize the signature of Awakened magic. If she's Scrutinized the Signature Nimbus of another mage, she can now see it with Active Mage Sight rather than having to Scrutinize.

cont.

>>46888816
Active Mage Sight can always recognize effects you've seen before under Focused sight. The Supernal Taxonomy Merit lets you also make intuitive leaps to similar effects using Active Mage Sight, without needing to go into Focused/scrutiny, such as a Mage who's seen someone under Mind-based Psychic Domination being able to intuit that someone currently under the Dominate Discipline is experiencing something similar or analogous to that without needing to Focus on it to figure out how exactly Dominate works. It probably won't give you DETAILS, just "this is something like a Psychic Domination spell, but not Supernal".

>>46888834
>>46888816
Neat. So if I see someone use Dominate under Focused Mage Sight, later I can tell that Obtenebration is some kind of Vampiric magic, or I can tell that the servants of some monster are getting mind controlled? Because I've seen what Mind Control looks like, and I've seen Vampiric powers, so I know when something looks similar enough?

>>46888957
"Similar in either effect or origin", so yes. It won't tell you what Obtenebration DOES, just that it's also a Vampiric Discipline of some kind.

That merit honestly seems incredibly fucking useful, and I'm planning on buying up to Occult 3 on my own Mage just to get it.

All this talk about taxonomy seems to be assuming that viniculum falls under the purview of the Dominate discipline desu

>>46889015
>similar in effect
it would recognize similar abilities
or that a vampire was involved
it wouldn't give you the text of what it means
and it relies on a lot of previous exposure

>>46889015
No, that was just the example in the spoiler text.

You'd need to have seen an effect that does long-term subtle mind control to be able to Supernal Taxonomy your way to understanding how a Vinculum works.

Luckily Mages can do that too (although it's vastly more of a pain in the ass than "here drink my blood 3 times").

>>46888979
>It won't tell you what Obtenebration DOES
Well. I think that should be fairly obvious.

>>46889015
What? No it doesn't. It assumes that it's some kind of a magical affect that create subservience, and is vampiric in origin. It might also tell you that it's similar to crack, if Mage Sight can pick up on non-magical things as well.

>>46889074
Are you implying crack isn't magical?

So what supernatural type was Prince?

More importantly, can he be my character's Geist now?

>>46887843
Did we really need sidebars to tell us about raping your pets and flinging poop at the walls? Are you actually going to defend this, aspel?

>>46887138
>Furfags will defend this

>>46887843
"You should totally have your shifter take a shit on your enemy's bed, this is a great use of spotlight time" is not "worldbuilding".

>>46889717
weird religious sexperv out of michigan? either daeva of lance sanctum or changeling

>>46889994
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miZxYjqqjZM
both work

Are there people in this thread really defending Changing Breeds? Like, honest to god defending that shit? I mean, Dave said he put a Bastet in the story partially to rehabilitate Changing Breeds. Because they need to be fixed. Desperately.

>>46890140
When a game has werewolves theres gonna be Furfags

>>46890140
Yes. You wanna fight about it?
Changing breeds is a better book than Geist and Mummy.

>>46890204
Forsaken specifically didn't have furfaggotry, that's why people kept bitching for changing breeds.

So the writers gave them what they wanted.

>>46890239
>that's why people kept bitching for changing breeds.
Yeah exactly Furfags where still there but even turning into a wolf wasnt furrie enough for them.

>>46890238
Not really.
I don't think it's right to fight the mentally handicapped.

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>>46890280
I know you're just jealous, but keep this in mind.

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>>46890238
Wow. Just, wow. I hope you're baiting. Because if not, you should consider suicide for your life choices.

>>46890320
The left is how you play Werewolf

>>46890365
The left is the fuzzy murderball. So yeah, accurate.

So when's the Dark Era companion book supposed to come out? I haven't been following the release schedules at all.

>>46890467
Still in art direction so a couple months.

>>46890349
At least changing breeds is playable. Both Mummy and Geist are as useful as Beast, that is, not at all.

The only person who plays either if them is atamajjaki or whatever.

>>46890502
Not too long, but wish it was sooner. A friend told me it's supposed to have rules for playing the Pure.

>>46890571
I think we have another geist player but yeh

>>46890603
Here's a sneak peek at that part.
http://theonyxpath.com/playing-the-pure-werewolf-the-forsaken/

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>>46890571
>Changing Breeds
>Playable
>Implying

>>46890630
Awesome. Pure > Forsaken, so it's about damn time.

Are they getting any unique Gifts in the new book?

>>46890613
I would play Geist if I knew people who wanted to play it.

>>46890686
Tribes don't have unique gifts (everyone can get any gift) but there might be some new gifts in the Roman section.

>>46890140

Phil Satyros Brucato still gets work for a reason. Besides, we're far enough away from Changing Breed's intitial publication for people to be fond of it. Enough people liked Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand enough that we got V20 Black Hand, after all.

>>46890714
Sure, they're not unique, but the Pure traditionally had their own things the Forsaken didn't tend to indulge.

Predator Kings had the Savagery powers, for instance. I forget the other two.

>>46890758
Yeah, 2e got rid of that, everyone gets everything (except some tribe locked rites). Dunno if we're getting any gifts/rites in it, we got a rite and version of technology gift in Viking Werewolf

>>46890571
mummy is perfectly playable. Geist has good aesthetics but is a thematic and mechanical FUCK

>>46890814
>mummy is perfectly playable.
roll to fall asleep for another 1200 years

>>46890813
Got rid of them? That's a shame. It would have been nice for the Pure to have something to make up for their lack of Moon Gifts & auspice abilities.

>>46871800
I recall seeing something from a Dev somewhere that stated viewing Z-splats/Interlocks/Ciphers exactly this way. Don't remember who said it or when, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

>>46890845
>after 400 days in-game minimum
>nothing stops you from waking up next year

>>46890910
They got rid of tribe/lodge only gifts. So anyone can get Savagery, Fever, Disease gifts

>>46890965
I getcha. Still, lame. If those were Pure-only, it'd work as replacement for the Moon gifts.

>>46890964
Oh great, you guys woke him up.

>>46890964
>>after 400 days in-game minimum
Even if you weren't adding wrong (its 160), you know that's not true, there's other ways to fall to sleep.

>>46891006
If it was Pure only, it would keep ghost wolves/forsaken/bale hounds from getting them. Plus it wouldn't make sense with how gifts work.

>>46887481
Mage series has always been terribly unhelpful.

So prep time lets you do magic without as much risk for paradox. There's a rules for how long it takes to get a certain number of successes on a roll. Casting time is subjective as fuck for a Spell.
Basically, you only do ritual magic if you don't have a time limit on what you're doing. Else you can keep rolling ad infinitum and risk a monstrous paradox backlash (see the rules for Failing and continuing a spell).

The money is utterly useless unless they need to buy shit, but they're mages and money is fucking everywhere for them. Unless they're a Syndicate. Chantry would lower the difficulty of the spell based on its proximity to a Node (-1 for same building to -3 for being on top of it), give them access to Hermetic resources for casting, and remove Paradox from the spell if it's a Hermetic Chantry along with lower the difficulty based on the Sanctuary rating of the Chantry. The assistants wouldn't do much, if anything at all unless they are large in number or are Sorcerers. Note that Technocrats can use scientists and engineers as Foci.

So what can they do? Entropy 1 lets you do If then statements in your spells akin to computer programming ("Whenever the moon is full you shall be cursed to turn into a beast.). Entropy 1 also lets you spot the weakness of something, lower the difficulty for a DAMAGE roll by 1 per success. Entropy 2 lets you fuck randomization, so you can control shit like dice rolls and dumb luck. Forces 1 doesn't do much be let you enhance an ability roll relating to it (see the rules in the M20 book, it's arguably a Mage's best power). Forces 2 is literally the best level 2 Sphere in the game, it lets you fuck with the magnitude and direction of a vector. You know that shit you learned in Physics? Yeah, you can now fuck with that and increase or decrease it. Invisibility, shadow and light manipulation. Corr 1 gives you 360 vision and 360 lets you cast magic at a distance.

>>46891071
You can justify anything as a writer with some hocus pocus or another. Fictional metaphysics don't actually exist.

The Forsaken got unique Moon Gifts, so it'd be nice if the Pure got something unique, too.

This weekend was pretty damn great.

The Dark Ages LARP went over with about 34 players (I really enjoyed my leprous Egyptian Nosferatu scholar-guy), and Venice was the site of much politicking, violence, a tournament for a magic sword, and a sudden shift into alternate-history of the normal Masquerade setting. Of note, a new Camarilla is forming in that timeline, founded by the Lasombra, Tzimisce, Salubri and Assamites... and there may be Nosferatu, Gangrel and Setite opposition to the nascent organization. Looks like the Tremere won't be a thing though, the Lasombra plan to wipe them out.

I also learned how to play VtES, which is a really fun game once you get through the massive learning curve.

Overall, a very awesome weekend.

>>46891130
the Pure had unique gifts

>become a werewolf
>moon boops you on the soul "here's some magical powers"
>pure says "fuck that, bitch" and gouges the booped part of his soul out

later books will probably bring options for wolves who have found other patrons, but that's not a given for the pure. they had gifts, they rejected them. if it helps, their sacred hunt powers are nicer than the forsaken ones and they probably have a lot of sercet rites

Can mages just make magical grenades out of enchanting stones or making potions? Do they suffer Paradoxes?

>>46890845
you have clearly not read the book. You have a year AT MINIMUM, even if you complete your purpose while at Sekhem 10.
Furthermore, I'm not sure that you even have a respawn timer after hitting Sekhem 0 but I can't remember.

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>>46890238
Wow. I think this is the first time I've actually laughed out loud at a post in one of these threads.

>>46891194
Sure, IC they removed their Moon Gifts themselves. OOC, they're still lacking compared to the Forsaken, so I'd prefer them get something to make up for it.

It's a gameplay concern, not a narrative one.

>>46891207
>Can mages just make magical grenades out of enchanting stones or making potions?
Sure, if they've got Matter.

>Do they suffer Paradoxes?
Probably.

>>46891207
MtAs? Hell yes and maybe based on how they do it.
MtAw? Hell yes and maybe based on how they do it.

>>46891044

There's also plenty of ways to wake up, from a Cult summoning to a Tomb Invasion, to even some of the new Merits from Dark Eras that allow you to wake up more often of your own accord in the Sothic Turn off periods. It's not gonna be as easy to get into as, say, Vampire, but it's not something like Normality.

>>46891225
oh, fuck that, they have their own oaths and harmony and rites, super special gifts for a lack of luna doesn't make sense

>>46891238
>Just matter
Why not making an instant portal spell to throw at enemies to transport them away? Or throw magical Napalm?

>>46891245
>based on how they do it.
explain?
Also is using pre made spells faster and easier then casting a spell?

>>46891280
Like I said, any sort of writing hocus pocus can easily justify it in a lore-consistent fashion, as the writers dictate lore. "Sense" isn't really a problem.

The Auspice gifts are really powerful. Lacking them is a severe disadvantage.

>>46891308
In both MtAw and MtAs, how you present your spell determines how vulgar it is. So if you enchant a rock with a magic to glow and explode on impact, it's probably going to be vulgar. If you mix some potions into a glass bottle to throw which explodes on impact, then it's probably not going to be.

Literally all about how you present your shit. This is why the Technocracy won in MtAs

>>46891334
>Like I said, any sort of writing hocus pocus can easily justify it in a lore-consistent fashion, as the writers dictate lore. "Sense" isn't really a problem.
The fact that there's no need TO justify it. Pure and Forsaken do not need to be on equal standing.
>Lacking them is a severe disadvantage.
Yes, that's why it pays not to cut out parts of your soul in misguided anger. It also gives the Pure the ability to call the Forsaken dishonorable wretches for using the power of the bitch moon.

>>46891360
>a glass bottle to throw which explodes on impact,
But I am still throwing magic at something to produce obvious magical effects.

>>46891381
Right. You're sticking to arguing IC concerns. I don't care about those. I'm talking OOC mechanical design.

OOC, Auspice Gifts are powerful. If the Pure do not get their own similar unique powers, the Pure are objectively inferior to the Forsaken. This is not a design I support, so I'd like them to get their own cool gifts.

>>46891225
Why should they get something for spiritually crippling themselves?

>>46891413
>Right. You're sticking to arguing IC concerns. I don't care about those. I'm talking OOC mechanical design.
No.
>The fact that there's no need TO justify it. Pure and Forsaken do not need to be on equal standing.
This is a mechanical point.
>Yes, that's why it pays not to cut out parts of your soul in misguided anger. It also gives the Pure the ability to call the Forsaken dishonorable wretches for using the power of the bitch moon.
This is a IC point.
> the Pure are objectively inferior to the Forsaken.
Yes, and there's no reason it should be otherwise.
>This is not a design I support, so I'd like them to get their own cool gifts.
I'm sure they'll have options if they decide to enslave themselves to other spirits (like lodge benefits offer). But until then all gifts are free to all werewolves, Pure, Forsaken, Bale and Ghost Hound, and everyone gets Auspice but Pure.

>>46891164
Where do these larps happen, because this sounds like a lot of fun?

Is Beast still Wifebeater: The RPG?

>>46891454
Because the protagonists being objectively more powerful than their antagonists makes both the protagonists and antagonists lame. It turns the Forsaken into bullies, and their current narrative position of weaker than the Pure harder to believe.

The dark mirror should be, at worst, equal. When your dark mirror is straight up a shoddy third-world product, it loses all impact.

>>46891461

>No.

Yes.

>This is a mechanical point.

It's not really any sort of point. You're saying they don't need to be. Nothing needs to be anything.

>This is a IC point.

Yes, and I don't care about it.

>Yes, and there's no reason it should be otherwise.

There's plenty.

>I'm sure they'll have options if they decide to enslave themselves to other spirits (like lodge benefits offer). But until then all gifts are free to all werewolves, Pure, Forsaken, Bale and Ghost Hound, and everyone gets Auspice but Pure.

Yes, I know how it is. That is why I've been talking about it being different. If it was already different, I wouldn't need to say that.

>>46891506
yep

>>46891538
>There's plenty.
You haven't offered ANY and it goes against the design of the game.

>>46891505
This one is something that our local troupe Masquerade LARP group has run as a convention LARP for a local gaming convention here in Lexington, KY the past 2 years. We use it as a recruitment and exhibition method to show what and how a Vampire LARP is and runs.

This year it was outside the normal continuity, but we got a number of interested individuals who are planning on joining the main game. We run a normal game (with an altered Masquerade timeline) on the 1st and 3rd Saturdays here, and have for the past 3 years, with 2 more years of planned chronicle leading into Gehenna.

I'd google up your city and state, and "vampire larp" or check out larping.org or bynightstudios.com to see about local LARPs in your area. You might find something that is close enough driving distance, if not in your city directly.

>>46891563
>You haven't offered ANY and it goes against the design of the game.

I've offered a handful:

1. I want it.

2. The purpose of a dark mirror antagonist is to challenge and reflect the protagonist, and show them a glimpse of what might be, had a different path been taken. This sort of rivalry requires the rival not be a bitch in comparison, otherwise there's no temptation, there's no dark lure, there's no appeal whatsoever. Instead of a mirror, you're beating a child.

3. It's fun to play with more options, not less. Playable Pure benefit from not being gimped in comparison to Forsaken. Vanishingly few people enjoy feeling like the gimp or sidekick.

Both in terms of the Pure as enemies and the Pure as PCs, them being objectively inferior does a disservice.

>>46891611
Often, though, LARP organizations - both troupe and larger ones, like the Mind's Eye Society or One World By Night - will do exhibition games at conventions and such. I know the MES has done something at Origins and GenCon for the past few years, as I helped run the Origins once in 2013, and MES and OWbN do Midwinter Gaming Convention and others. And every one of the big organizations runs one at Grand Masquerade each year.

Wait so in changing breeds you can be a wereshark throwing sphere magic around?

How can anyone hate this?

>>46891731
Because there is a paragraph about poop!
AREN'T YOU MAD!?!

>>46891538
>Because the protagonists being objectively more powerful than their antagonists makes both the protagonists and antagonists lame. It turns the Forsaken into bullies, and their current narrative position of weaker than the Pure harder to believe.
>The dark mirror should be, at worst, equal. When your dark mirror is straight up a shoddy third-world product, it loses all impact.

But they aren't equal. The Pure has both superior numbers and stronger backers.

>>46891651
>1. I want it.
Doesn't matter.
>2. The purpose of a dark mirror antagonist is to challenge and reflect the protagonist, and show them a glimpse of what might be, had a different path been taken. This sort of rivalry requires the rival not be a bitch in comparison, otherwise there's no temptation, there's no dark lure, there's no appeal whatsoever. Instead of a mirror, you're beating a child.
The Bale Hounds and Ghost Wolves are dark mirror antagonists.
>3. It's fun to play with more options, not less. Playable Pure benefit from not being gimped in comparison to Forsaken. Vanishingly few people enjoy feeling like the gimp or sidekick.
They have the benefits of different and less limiting Harmony structures, more numbers in packs, more powerful totems, a disregard for human life, their sacred hunt abilities aren't limited to affecting only a sacred prey.
>Both in terms of the Pure as enemies and the Pure as PCs, them being objectively inferior does a disservice.
They make up for it in other ways.

Your reasons are basically a misunderstanding of the antagonist and a belief in balance (which goes against the design of the game)

>>46891822
Yeah, I think some people forget this.
Sure you might have another set of gifts. But the Pure have friends in powerful places. They can run whole cities, they might be sitting on the city council, they might have a whole little town just to breed more warriors for their war of wiping you out.

Enjoy your gifts.

>>46891867
>But the Pure have friends in powerful places. They can run whole cities, they might be sitting on the city council, they might have a whole little town just to breed more warriors for their war of wiping you out.
To be fair, Forsaken can do that too.

Pure seem to have an easier time of getting gifts, they start with the same amount of gifts, but with a shadow gift instead of a moon gift.

>>46891782
there are actually multiple paragraphs about enabling furfags and their magical realms so they can point at the book and say "See its in the book!"

>>46891822
>But they aren't equal. The Pure has both superior numbers and stronger backers.

When are Pure vs Forsaken conflicts in a game actually entire tribes or the like pit against one another? The Pure's greater numbers is fluff that never really matters; when conflicts rise up in a game, it's almost always pack vs pack, and in those cases the numbers are damn near identical.

The average game doesn't have the hordes of Pure spread across the land rallying together to fuck the PCs. If the Pure show up at all, it's a half dozen of them messing with the half dozen PCs.

Werewolf isn't a game about armies. It's a game about gangs. And the Forsaken are better gangsters.

>>46891866

>Doesn't matter.

Matters a ton. It's the single most important reason for anything.

>The Bale Hounds and Ghost Wolves are dark mirror antagonists.

Ghost Wolves are emphatically not. Bale Hounds, arguably, but in a vastly reduced capacity relative the Pure.

>They have the benefits of different and less limiting Harmony structures, more numbers in packs, more powerful totems, a disregard for human life, their sacred hunt abilities aren't limited to affecting only a sacred prey.

The Forsaken have a disregard for human life, the sacred hunt abilities are minor, the Harmony structures aren't meaningfully limiting to begin with.

The totem bit is arguable, given totems are customized on a pack by pack basis. The numbers, see above.

>Your reasons are basically a misunderstanding of the antagonist and a belief in balance (which goes against the design of the game)

No.

>>46891921
>Vague and buzzwords

>>46891731
Because it manages to be both be mechanical trash, and furry pandering. And have straight up animal fucking.

>>46891935
>The Pure's greater numbers is fluff that never really matters; when conflicts rise up in a game, it's almost always pack vs pack, and in those cases the numbers are damn near identical.
Pure packs have always had more werewolves than Forsaken. Because the Forsaken are attuned to auspice, they hover around an ideal of 5 (one of each auspice). Pure have an average of 12 per pack.
>Ghost Wolves are emphatically not. Bale Hounds, arguably, but in a vastly reduced capacity relative the Pure.
Ghost Wolves have changed a lot since 1e. They are not "unaligned Forsaken," they're complete mercenaries with auspice powers. And Bale Hounds are probably gonna have a lot more in the way of powers (what with their powerful patrons).
>The Forsaken have a disregard for human life,
One of their oaths is to live with them, another is to respect them, things the Pure don't deal with.
>the sacred hunt abilities are minor
The Fire Touched sacred hunt ability lets them command spirits.
>the Harmony structures aren't meaningfully limiting to begin with.
When you're unbalanced you can't change as often or as easy (it starts costing essence)
>The totem bit is arguable, given totems are customized on a pack by pack basis. The numbers, see above.
You see above, Pure have more members per pack.

>>46891935
>, the sacred hunt abilities are minor
The Predator Kings Sacred Hunt grants your character Influence over the natural world equal to her effective spirit Rank. She may twist and control animals and plants to aid the hunt. The Uratha spends Essence to use Influence Effects as if she were a spirit (Werewolf: The Forsaken, p. 186–187), rolling Strength + Primal Urge in place of Power + Finesse.


that's hardly minor

>>46891935
>When are Pure vs Forsaken conflicts in a game actually entire tribes or the like pit against one another?

Considering that the fluff consistently also paints Pure as having larger packs, and larger support networks around them (spirits, predators, humans), it counts a lot.
If your ST puts the numbers up as equal he is not using the Pure as written.

>>46892004
>>46891731
Go ahead and give it a shot yourself.
You'll either hate it, or realize that like usual, /tg/ is more buzzwords and bandwagons than actual knowhow. It doesn't really matter in the end, we'll probably never get another book like it.

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>>46892064
>Pure packs have always had more werewolves than Forsaken. Because the Forsaken are attuned to auspice, they hover around an ideal of 5 (one of each auspice). Pure have an average of 12 per pack.

I don't recall reading this in 2e Wolf, re: pack sizes. All packs seem to differ in size, scope, goals, etc., etc. Did I miss it, and if so, do you have a page citation?

>Ghost Wolves have changed a lot since 1e. They are not "unaligned Forsaken,"

That doesn't make them the dark mirrors. Ghost Wolves largely do their own thing, per the tribal blurb in the book.

>And Bale Hounds are probably gonna have a lot more in the way of powers (what with their powerful patrons).

Maybe. That remains to be seen, and the Pure are still the major mirror. See the pic.

>One of their oaths is to live with them, another is to respect them, things the Pure don't deal with.

Live among them so you don't go crazy. This is true for all the Pure, except the Predator Kings (but it's even true for them, as urban PKs exist).

Humans are still killed. Humans are still delicious. Forsaken aren't cuddly.

>The Fire Touched sacred hunt ability lets them command spirits.

No, it lets spirits that listen to them get dice bonuses. It gives them no ability to actually command a spirit.

>When you're unbalanced you can't change as often or as easy (it starts costing essence)

Yes, and it's easy for Forsaken to stay at 5.

>>46892099

Influence sucks, especially using it as a werewolf. It's the same reason the Gifts of the Elements are so non-viable. Overly expensive minor effects.

>>46892100
So your vision of the ideal antagonistic mirror is "inferior knock-offs that zerg rush"?

I mean, that's a fair position to take. I don't like it.

>>46892235
>Influence sucks

someone is not thinking very creatively.

>>46892304
It's not a matter of creativity, it's overpriced, especially for werewolves. They don't have a ton of essence.

>>46892104
I've actually read the book, Aspel. It's a mess. Don't defend it, for the love of God.

>>46892235
>I don't recall reading this in 2e Wolf, re: pack sizes.

Considering that the Pure haven't been treated in 2e more than a blog post. I think it's fair to say that the rules from 1e still apply.

>So your vision of the ideal antagonistic mirror is "inferior knock-offs that zerg rush"?

Considering how badly the system skews towards numbers being the big winner in combat, then yes. I think it does.
It also means the players are more rewarded for working to split Pure packs.

>Influence sucks,
I usually don't stoop to insults, but are you an idiot? Influence rivals Arcana in power and versatility.

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>>46892235
>I don't recall reading this in 2e Wolf, re: pack sizes. All packs seem to differ in size, scope, goals, etc., etc. Did I miss it, and if so, do you have a page citation?
No, it's a holdover from 1e.
>That doesn't make them the dark mirrors. Ghost Wolves largely do their own thing, per the tribal blurb in the book.
Yes, their own thing, which includes serving strange spirits and creating cults like Lycaon-Ur.
>Maybe. That remains to be seen, and the Pure are still the major mirror. See the pic.
Because they're organized and out there in a way the Bale and Ghosts aren't.
>Live among them so you don't go crazy. This is true for all the Pure, except the Predator Kings (but it's even true for them, as urban PKs exist).
Not anymore. And Urban Predator Kings just existed to spy on Forsaken in Urban areas.
>Humans are still killed. Humans are still delicious. Forsaken aren't cuddly.
I didn't say they were, but Forsaken suffer much more for mistreating humans than the Pure.
>No, it lets spirits that listen to them get dice bonuses. It gives them no ability to actually command a spirit.
Okay. But spirits are capable of being members of packs now and this gives all the Shadow-dwelling Fire-Touched a huge advantage with their spirit packs.
>Yes, and it's easy for Forsaken to stay at 5.
It absolutely is not.
>Influence sucks, especially using it as a werewolf. It's the same reason the Gifts of the Elements are so non-viable. Overly expensive minor effects.
You're objectively wrong.

>>46892332

I don't think that's Aspel. We've always had someone that really liked Changing Breeds for its ability to build your own shifter, they're just usually quiet about it until someone else brings up Changing Breeds.

>>46892332
Aspel used to be a big furry RP'er but they agree with everything somethingawful says so they might not like changing breeds

>>46889841
>>46889958
>>46890140
>Bitch bitch bitch
Again. Hate the book all you want. But don't hate it for bringing up the kind of topic that is actually the kind of question that would get asked about people who turn into animals. That is not the problem with Changing Breeds.
The book has real problems for you to complain about.

>>46890238
>>46890571
Don't be a fucking idiot.
You know damned well that Changing Breeds is less playable than either of those. They actually had SOME playtesting, if not much of it.

>>46890814
Honestly, Geist is playable in the basest sense. Most of the mechanics are a stupid mess of "sure, whatever" with no real rhyme or reason, but Changeling is the same way. 1.0 had the problem that it constantly made references to previous mechanics, but honestly it wasn't that hard to figure out what they meant. It's playable, it's just a clusterfuck, like most of the 1e books. It's just the most of a clusterfuck, because they did really stupid things with Krewes and the lack of social groups and the lack of incentives beyond morality or enjoyment.

It's not really great, but it's not really "there's no actual explanation for how movement or distances work and those are both important" bad.

>>46892414
I (not the guy you meant, nor Aspel) like the idea of "build your own splat". But the implementation is so poor, and the framing is so horrible, that I can only weep at the book.

With some luck, we'll get to see the Animal-Souled changers that Dave brought up in his short story.

>>46892352
>Considering that the Pure haven't been treated in 2e more than a blog post. I think it's fair to say that the rules from 1e still apply.

Okay. A fair guess, then.

>Considering how badly the system skews towards numbers being the big winner in combat, then yes. I think it does.
>It also means the players are more rewarded for working to split Pure packs.

Alright. I still assert inferiors zerg rushing inadequately handles a proper dark mirror conflict.

>I usually don't stoop to insults, but are you an idiot? Influence rivals Arcana in power and versatility.

I might be missing something; by all means, walk me through it, I'll listen. When I look at werewolves and influence, I see dramatically overpriced shit whose end results aren't justified by the overbearing costs.

>>46892388
>Because they're organized and out there in a way the Bale and Ghosts aren't.

So we agree the Pure are the dark mirrors.

>Not anymore. And Urban Predator Kings just existed to spy on Forsaken in Urban areas.

What do you mean, not anymore?

>I didn't say they were, but Forsaken suffer much more for mistreating humans than the Pure.

I don't think so.

>Okay. But spirits are capable of being members of packs now and this gives all the Shadow-dwelling Fire-Touched a huge advantage with their spirit packs.

Sure, if you have a ton of spirits as a Pure, that helps. A Forsaken PC can buy up spirit allies too, though.

Admittedly, he won't get the dice bonus. So point there in the Pure's favor.

>It absolutely is not.

It absolutely is. Harmony is exceedingly simple to game.

>You're objectively wrong.

Like I said to the other poster: by all means, walk me through it, because werewolves using influence looks to me like overpriced junk.

>>46892458
>It's not really great, but it's not really "there's no actual explanation for how movement or distances work and those are both important" bad.

Sounds like someone has tried to play Cthulhutech before.

>>46892485
>So we agree the Pure are the dark mirrors.
They're not dark mirrors. They're not even dark. You said yourself, the Forsaken aren't cuddly in the first place.
>What do you mean, not anymore?
The Pure don't have the Oath of the Moon, their Oath works differently, and because of that, their Harmony works differently.
>I don't think so.
Eating, killing, disrespecting and just transforming in view of them are all sins for Forsaken that cause Harmony shifts.
>It absolutely is. Harmony is exceedingly simple to game.
It really isn't, especially if you're at war, where the Pure have a distinct advantage. Based on this and your other statements I'm inclined to believe you don't know much about what you're talking about.

>>46892418
What?
I don't go to SomethingAwful, and think the site is dumb. At best, I've linked the FATAL and Friends reviews, but that's about it.
>>46892332
That's not me, though I have been accused of defending the book in this thread.
>>46892414
I don't mind people hating the book. I hate it. The tone of the writing is really pandering and feels like an Otherkin blog, beyond what's necessary. It feels like it fits in with Apocalypse with all the "Mother Nature is crying" and ecoterrorist bullshit, instead of focusing on more animalistic traits. I *think* the actual shifter groups are probably more interesting, but I never got passed the opening chapter. The mechanics that I did skim through had the same "we don't understand the system and we didn't playtest" feel of all of the 1e books (Second Sight, Antagonists, etcetera).

I don't like Changing Breeds. But I just also don't like people who complain about it because the people who are literally part animal might fuck that animal or shit on things. Animals fuck things and shit everywhere. That is a reasonable thing to include in your book about animal people. Complain about the things that are actually terrible, don't take two tiny bits of the book that are reasonable but that you think are icky and then use that to tell everyone the book is bad.

300 words about sex and poop doesn't make the book bad. 217 pages of new age wankery and underwhelming poorly thought out mechanics is what makes the book bad.

>>46892506
I have, but that was apparently a problem with FATAL.
CthulhuTech's problem is that the core system of dice poker is utterly fucking sloggish and overcomplicated by the need to roll attack, defense, damage, and soak. With dice poker rules.
Honestly, I want to port CthulhuTech's concept to CofD.

Or at least Tagers.

The Pure aren't a dark mirror, they're sore losers who're trying to bring everybody down with them.

Bale Hounds are the ones who say fuck this world, fuck the shadow, we're siding with evil.

Ghost Wolves are werewolves without a cause (or worse, an antagonist cause).

>>46892623
>They're not dark mirrors. They're not even dark. You said yourself, the Forsaken aren't cuddly in the first place.

The Pure are absolutely dark in the way humans use the word. They're also explicitly mirrors in the book's own wording.

>The Pure don't have the Oath of the Moon, their Oath works differently, and because of that, their Harmony works differently.

Right. But how does any of that mean "the Pure don't live alongside humans"? They totally do.

>Eating, killing, disrespecting and just transforming in view of them are all sins for Forsaken that cause Harmony shifts.

Yes, killing a human causes a break toward spirit. Staying out of the shadow for a week causes a break toward flesh. Very easy to cancel out.

>It really isn't, especially if you're at war, where the Pure have a distinct advantage. Based on this and your other statements I'm inclined to believe you don't know much about what you're talking about.

This tells me you've never actually looked at the Harmony rules. It is trivial to reach five (or whatever number you desire) by repeating a few actions. If you're too high at Flesh, go out into the woods and kill wolves. It takes no time at all.

If you're too low toward Spirit, like exceptionally low, eat a cheeseburger until you're at Harmony 4, and then stay out of the shadow for one week. Bam, Harmony 5.

The only way Harmony can cause you to struggle is if you don't actually try to manipulate it at all.

>>46892703
Main part of Cthulhutech I liked were the mechs and engels, and I really wouldn't want to try to port giant robot combat into CofD. So for me, Cthulhutech is just a great concept and setting, dead in the water.

>>46892750

I hear someone did an all right FATE setting for it, if you don't mind that.

>>46892746
>Right. But how does any of that mean "the Pure don't live alongside humans"? They totally do.
Fire-Touched live in the fucking Shadow and the Predator Kings don't need humans at all.
>Yes, killing a human causes a break toward spirit. Staying out of the shadow for a week causes a break toward flesh. Very easy to cancel out.
If there was no dice roll involved and breaking vows didn't give you a penalty to those rolls.
>The only way Harmony can cause you to struggle is if you don't actually try to manipulate it at all.
It's easy to get to 5, it's not easy to stay there if you plan on doing anything involving Werewolf in your game.

>>46892845
That wouldn't be bad. Though I've yet to actually run a FATE game.

from the dev
>Thinking of either Pure or Forsaken as the “good guys” really doesn’t apply. The Forsaken are the more sympathetic protagonists for people to actually play because they fucked up but want to fix things.
>People’s holdovers from the World of Darkness is not and won’t be a design consideration for the Chronicles of Darkness.

>>46892825
new thread

>>46892881
It's an awful system.

>>46892881
FATE is a pretty baller system. I'm playing in a non-Cthulhu giant mech game run with it right now, so I can attest that it definitely works.

>>46892864
>Fire-Touched live in the fucking Shadow and the Predator Kings don't need humans at all.

This ignores the Ivory Claws and urban Predator Kings, which explicitly exist. I'd also be surprised if the Fire-Touched spent all their time in the shadow- they need to come out, if for no other reason than to proselytize, and that means having places in the human world.

>If there was no dice roll involved and breaking vows didn't give you a penalty to those rolls.

You can just repeat the action. Harmony is really easy to game.

>It's easy to get to 5, it's not easy to stay there if you plan on doing anything involving Werewolf in your game.

Got any examples? I just cited actual breaking points showing how easy it is to deliberately go up or down.

What sorts of things will make it real hard to stick at 5?