>players are tasked with removing a Wererat infestation from

>>46850930
The party consists of a half orc barbarian, an elven bard, a human cleric, and an elven ranger.We're playing 3.5 D&D.

>>46850951
Also they're all level 3. And none of them have died yet, but they were close to death at three different points. They're all currently at 70% health except for the barbarian who's at 50%, and extremely exhausted due to lifting 200 .lb crates of ore through a mine.

>>46850930
1 pound of pure silver is worth 5 gp according to the Player's Handbook (5E), so a metric ton (2204.62 lbs) is worth 11,023 gp and 1 sp. For the sake of argument let's round that down to 11,000 gp.

Then, figure out how pure the ore is.

http://www.britannica.com/technology/silver-processing

The site above says that ore is typically about .085% silver, so going off of that, the 11,000 gp is reduced to just 935 gp.

So...let the players have it, I guess? It's not really gamebreaking.

This is why I never plan anything when I GM.

>>46850930
One pound of decent-purity silver is worth 5 GP. Assuming that the silver ore is 5% silver by weight, that gives a mass of 50 kg or 110 pounds of silver, which would be worth 550 gold pieces. Note that the cost of refining that ore is going to be significant.

>>46851001
Shit, you're right. Now I feel like a dumbass, but they'll feel even more dumb since the reward offered by the magistrate was two times of what the ore they managed to steal is worth.

>>46851028
>>46851001
How did we come up with such different values?

>>46851001
Wait, I math failed. I multiplied by .085 rather than by .00085. So in fact the metric ton of silver ore is worth 93.5 gp.

Let the players have it. Congratulate them on a job well done.

>>46850930
Pretty much as said already, silver ore isn't 100% silver, so most of that "metric ton" is effectively just worthless rock.

>>46851057
Alright, I'll bring it up to them if they try to appraise it.

I feel kind of bad because they thought they were ultimate heist masters.

Maybe they'll just take the ore back to the city, so it isn't stolen because it was left unattended.

Especially if the silver ore is galena (which has a lot of lead), a metric ton is really not that much at all.

>>46851043
Because I'm an idiot and I forgot that .085% = .00085, not .085. I corrected myself above.

>>46851038
The site I linked in my original post notes that after flotation separation (i.e., removing the useless rock from the ore) the resulting concentrate is instead 17% silver. So if the players stole a metric ton of that instead, it would be worth 1,870 gp, a more worthwhile investment of their time, but still not anything that's going to break the game.

Although it does raise questions as to what they (the kingdom) were doing refining silver at the silver mine itself; it's far more realistic to keep it at the .085% I mentioned.

>but they'll feel even more dumb since the reward offered by the magistrate was two times of what the ore they managed to steal is worth.

It's an important learning experience.

>>46851080
Laugh them all the way to the gallows.

>>46851080
If none of them have profession (miner), (silversmith) or what have you, there's no reason they should know in character either. Go for it. Greed getting heroes into trouble is a classic trope, from Odysseus to Conan

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>>46851126
Hang on, I have something saved for this...I think this is it.

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>>46850930
>hire a tough mercenary party to try to rob them

How much loyalty do these hired swords have to the lich?

>>46851196
Dunno, just figured he'd have been keeping an eye on the mine because he needed silver for alchemical experiments.

I'd say about as much as the average sellsword, I still might go with that idea because if they don't go back to the magistrate I need a new hook.

>>46851108
Minting coins? backing up a fiat currency of enchanted notes thats value fluctuates with gdp? making were-kin slaying weapons?

>>46851196
>Why would you stab a man before throwing him off of a horse?

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>>46850930
Why the fuck would wererats even occupy a silver mine in the first place? That's like having a coven of vampires squat in a food processing plant that makes nothing but garlic aioli.

>>46851178
I used to love fucking the party over like this whenever they got too clever for their own good.

Ah, the memories of DMing!

>>46851259
Because the vampires were occupying the garlic aioli plant, so they had to settle for the silver mine.

>>46851259
I got the idea from an old adventure module I used to have, that had wererats occupying a silver mine.

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>>46851282
Pretty sure it might have been this one, but I'm not sure.

It was a silver mine that lead into a crypt and there was some vampire lady sealed in the crypt.

>>46851305
But where does the garlic aioli factory come in?

>>46851313
Its due to the menacing presence of Vampires.

But, if the vampires are the ones occupying the Garlic factory, then they can prevent the villagers from getting the garlic while the villagers feel safe knowing people are running a garlic factory.

>>46851333
But if it goes: Silver mine -> Crypt -> Vampire
Does that mean the town built a garlic aioli factory inside of a crypt inside of a silver mine?
Why would you seal a vampire lady in a crypt before putting in the aioli factory?

>>46850930
Bottom line is that no one who doesn't have a smelter would want the ore

They are going to have a real tough time selling rocks.

The processing plant would have all been near the mine at the surface. Any silver ingots would be shipped away on a daily basis.

The magistrate in charge of this stuff wouldn't be an idiot. While the ore might be "worth" a few hunded go they shouldn't be able to sell it to anyone nearby. Punish them, but in a wasted your time and can now not collect the reward way.

>>46851372
They had to catch the next episode of Supernatural.

Its really simple. Due to the time constraints, they sealed the vampire where they could. Then, they tried to hire were-rats to guard the crypt so that nosy people wouldn't try to "sleep" with her. However, the were-rats got a little too rowdy because of the low pay. So, the villagers built a cave around the crypt and filled it with silver so that the were-rats both had something fun to do, and a way to earn that extra money they wanted. However, then the village became infested with vampires that really liked to go into the were-rat's cave. Not wanting another fiasco with the were-rats, the villagers built a garlic aioli factory inside the crypt so that the vampires would both stay away, and the were-rats could have something delicious to eat.

Pretty straightforward, honestly.

>How much would you value a metric ton of silver ore to be worth?

Let's see here, it might be somethign like 60-80% silver in the absolutely pure ore. But they don't have that. If they're really lucky, they have half a ton of silver in there.

Short of magical extraction, they're not getting that much out of it form smelting. Let's take a rough guess and say they get 400kg.

Now, smelting is a lot of work. You need massive amounts of fuel (which in turn is a lot of work to produce, and will probably require a lot of man hours to process once you have a source), your furnace, bellows, someone to keep pumping those bellows for hours at an end, and then with silver you'll probably want at least one re-melting (more fuel!) to purify and cast it into a decent ingot. This costs money.

And should the characters lack all the skill and equipment for this, then they'll be selling it to someone who does. Finding this person might be hard, as the only local one is probably directly associated with the mine. Time to drag that metric ton over to wherever the next silver mine is, that could be a few countries over. Then when they do find a silver smelter, well, he's going to want a good profit margin on things, so unless the characters are really good at haggling, maybe 200kg of silver for them in the end? Even less is certainly possible, every stage above shaving off a bit more.

Dunno if that's a ridiculously large amount, but split between a party, and that magistrate might start wondering why there are no bodies, or even silvered weapons, found in the mine when operations resume. Dealing with that might be worth a decent chunk of silver (paid in advance in this case).

>>46851446
>maybe 200kg of silver for them in the end? Even less is certainly possible, every stage above shaving off a bit more.

Oops, forgot one step. Make that 100kg, from 400 to 2300 to pay for smelting, then 200 to 100 for the smelters profit.

>>46851427
But how does one 'build' a cave?
Why would they put silver in the cave instead of investing it and giving it to the were-rats ala welfare?
Why bother building the factory INSIDE of the crypt when they could just make the 'cave' the factory and also have some garlic aioli for themselves?
Could I fuck the vampire?

>>46851486
>But how does one 'build' a cave?
Its like building a hole in the ground, but doing it the other way.
>Why would they put silver in the cave instead of investing it and giving it to the were-rats ala welfare?
The village is predominantly republican, so they're not about to just hand silver over to them after they just took their jobs.
>Why bother building the factory INSIDE of the crypt when they could just make the 'cave' the factory and also have some garlic aioli for themselves?
OSHA standards.
>Could I fuck the vampire?
Depends on the time of the month

>>46851541
>Its like building a hole in the ground, but doing it the other way.
Are... are you Terry Pratchet?

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>>46850930
This has been screencapped now.

>>46851579
You might want to try to read it, friend.

>>46851001
A late Roman Republic denarius weighed 1/72 of a pound with a purity of greater than 90% and bought you the equivalent of about $20 worth of bread. Let's put it at 93% for the sake of argument, meaning the denarius would be worth approximately $21.5 if it were 100% pure. So that puts a pound of silver at about $1548. A metric ton is 2,204.62 pounds, so that's $3,412,751.76 worth of silver. At .085% silver, that's $2900.84. Divide that between 4 people and that's $725 apiece. Of course, that doesn't factor in the cost of extraction, which I would think would be significant.

But the .085% purity in the thing you linked to seems to just be an example -- " A typical ore MIGHT contain 0.085 percent silver, 0.5 percent lead, 0.5 percent copper, and 0.3 percent antimony" -- so I don't know that we want to lean too much on it.

This site http://www.athens123.com/Main_HTML/Silver%20mines/silver-extraction-process.htm gives a (wide and tentative) range of figures that are considerably higher for ancient Athen's Lavrio mines: "The ore used to extract silver was not a silver ore but Lead Sulphide (formula PbS), known as Galena or Galenite (named by the Roman Pliny) which contains 87% lead. The local variety of Galenite is silver-bearing and is known as Argentiferous Galenite (formula (Pb.Ag)S ) and the lead obtained from this ore contains just a small percentage of silver - from 0.8% up to 5% (other sources say Laurion galena contains typically only 0.13 to 0.30% Ag)."

So let's average the top end of the lower range (.3%) and the bottom end of the higher range (.8%) to get .55%, or about six and a half times purer than the .085% figure. That values the silver in a metric ton of ore at $18,770.13 or about $4693.5 when split four ways. That's ignoring the cost of extraction, of course.

>>46851579
you capped much more than was necessary.

>>46851578
Wait
He fucking died?
Jesus christ fuck me I need to drink

>>46851578
yes

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>>46851610
Yeah I fixed.

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>>46851613
He's been pushing daisies for a year now.

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>>46850930

>>46851740
Literally fucking kill me.

>>46851754
Lol. Except not. 93.5 gp.

>>46851767
I have a hard time believing silver is worth so little.

>>46851765
Sorry mate, ain't Swiss.

>>46851776
Read the thread faggot. Fuck read>>46851637

>>46851776
You are one of OP's players aren't you?

>>46851776
Silver ORE, not silver. As in mostly not silver, and a whole fucking lot of work, skill and equipment to separate the silver form the not silver.

>>46851782
I read it, I just have a hard time buying into that.

I mean, fuck, it's silver. Bonding it to steel in Pathfinder costs like 90 GPs for one weapon, and that's a small-ass amount of silver compared to a metric ton.

Why in the fuck is it only worth 93.5?

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>>46851823

>>46851767
>>46851782
There are other factors in here than the silver worth, you stupid cunt. Like how to deal with people who just stole a trainwagon full of it. Or, if the wererats were "property" of someone, how to solve that.

But I think the OP completely missed the point, by NOT asking himself a very simple question:
Who the fuck will buy so much of anything from the PCs? Especially when it's unprocessed silver ore.

I had similar situations few weeks ago in modern setting, where players ended up with almost 10 kilos of coke after accidently raiding a lab.
And soon after being over-joyous about small fortune they've realised there is no fucking way they can sell it, because if they split it into smaller parts, it will take forever, while they have no contacts to even get rid of 1/10 of it at once. Not to mention a random police check would mean shitload of trouble.
They've ended up dumping it with desert wind.

>>46851828
Compared to the 5% of the ore that's actual silver in a metric ton of ore, that's still a disproportionately small price-tag for a large amount of silver.

Why in the hell is it so cheap?

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>>46851823
Math Bitch

>>46851875
0.085% anon. Not 5%

>>46851767
>>46851782
>>46851802
>>46851828
>>46851877
>Being this fucking retarded

Anon, nobody gives the fuck. The other anon is right - the price, even for unprocessed ore, is fucking laughable, all factors included.

>>46851845
>But I think the OP completely missed the point, by NOT asking himself a very simple question

OP didn't ask /tg/ that, what he asked himself is a mystery.

But as you say it's a simple question.

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>>46851875
Because silver isn't worth much compared to gold.

Current spot prices are about 490 EUR/kg for silver, and 35200 EUR/kg for gold.

>>46851893
>1% of 100 being 1 is fucking laughable, it has to be at least 20!

>>46851823
First, bonding silver to steel would add a lot of cost relating to having a skilled person do the work for you. Most of the time, getting anything done that requires one or more skilled people and some raw materials is going to cost you more for the people than the materials.

Second, they didn't steal silver, they stole silver ore. As in, their cart is filled with a pile of rocks that are less than 1% silver (and will take time, effort, and probably skill to extract the silver from the other junk it's mixed in with).

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>>46851927
>Using modern prices of metals as reference point

>>46851259
Perhaps their intent was to try and keep the mine too hazardous for people to make more silver weapons due to an ancillary plot by werebeasts to make their own kingdom or try to mass convert the locals.

>>46851944
Who gives fuck about silver content in the ore, it's about the price of silver itself in the end, after refinement. So it doesn't matter how many grams you end up with, it's the price per gram.
You are really this dense or simply "pretending"?

>>46851823
A gold aureus around the time of Caesar was almost completely pure and weighed 1/40 of a Roman pound, which comes to about 1/55 of an imperial pound. Assuming a D&D gold piece is the same size,* 93.5 of them would weigh in at approximately 1.7 imperial pounds, which is worth some $30,563 at current prices. Admittedly, the worth of gold relative to silver has skyrocketed in recent times, but that's still more than ten times the $2,900 figure I got here >>46851608 for the worth of silver in a metric ton of ore at .085% purity. There are a lot of unknowns we're dealing with here, but the two biggest things that make our results seem wonky are the very low concentration of silver in silver ore (even if we go by the higher figures in the 3rd paragraph in the earlier post I referenced) and the ridiculously low valuation of gold in D&D. Assuming a gold piece is the same size an aureus, the gold in it would be worth $326.88 today. That would put the cost of a battle axe in 5e at $3261, which seems a tad steep. A dagger would only cost $654 though. Still, the price of gold today is rather inflated, and so are those prices.

*I see now that standard coin weight in 5e is 1/50 of a pound, so close enough.

>>46852043
>*I see now that standard coin weight in 5e is 1/50 of a pound, so close enough.

It's always been that way since 3.X.

>All those dumb niggers arguing about the "right price"

How about the party being fucking unable to sell it at all? It's entire cart full of silver ore. Who the fuck will buy that?
It's like all those dumb niggers that are trying to rob merchants travelling on the road. What are you going to loot from them? Two carts full of animal hides? A cart full of metal pots?
Who the fuck will buy it all at once? Because I seriously doubt the party wants to now play as travelling merchants.

>>46851001
>>46851057
Anon, 2204.62 * 0.00085 = 1.8734 pounds of silver
1.8734 lbs * 5gp per lb = 9.367 gp
Plus about 550cp from the copper contained in the ore
Their silver ore is worthless

Op, honest reply, have the ore be a tiny bit under the reward. It doesnt have to be mathimatically correct, this shit is DnD ore where the barbarian cracks it open and harvests the shiny silver.
If the magistrate offered 200gp, give them 190gp. They completed the quest and 90gp would suck.
It will still be a shock for them to discover that their elaborate and machiavellian plan lost them 10gp, but don't crush the dream

>>46852009
Today gold is worth about 80 times as much as silver. According to some back of the napkin calculations I did with the denarius and the aureus, gold was worth about 20 times as much as silver back then. That's a four-fold difference, which is pretty significant, but gold was still worth a lot more back then.

>>46851038
>choosing unrefined, unworked semiprecious metal over widely recognized and valid currency

>>46852136
The players were probably thinking that silver ore was basically silver with some dirt on it. Or like half silver, half rock or something.

>>46852115
>gold was worth about 20 times as much as silver back then

Which is still only half the price of the 10 times DnD price used for >>46851057

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>>46852115
>Using real world comparison to make assumption about fantasy world created entirely in the minds of players

>>46852224
If we toss real world stuff out the window, we really have no basis for judging anything. Which side of the argument -- "a metric ton of silver ore should be worth more" or "that seems fine" -- are you supporting? Because either is equally tenable if we divorce ourselves from real world standards.

>>46852224
It's 3.5. One can, and must, make assumptions from the historicity that inspired D&D when it comes to problems such as these.

However, I'm almost positive that there is a price chart for things like silver ore in one of the main books, so I don't know why he bothered.

>>46852107

I get what you're saying, but... Ehh.

Based on these calculations, throw them a bone and offer them 140gp or so.

If they complain, tell them OOC that you inflated the value in their favour.

>>46852279
>If we toss real world stuff out the window, we really have no basis for judging anything.

Wrong.

If you toss real world stuff out the window, you can start making a model of the economy going within the setting.
It will be time consuming, mostly pointless and would interest nobody (well, aside maybe a handful of players), BUT you would avoid all the bullshit.

>>46852289
Let's face the ugly truth - D&D "economy" makes no sense. And trying to strenghten the argument with historical data makes it only more standing out as bullshit.

>>46852289
And by the way.
Say there is a dragon hoard. Players or some army or whatever else took it.
Congrats, entire economy collapsed, because you've just introduced into it absurd amount of gold, decreasing its value considerably and breaking entire existing system with the sky-high inflation.

Want historical comparison? Mansa Musa collapsing entire Arab economy with the gold he brought with himself. And it was just about 20 tonnes of it.

>>46852524
My DM wants me to spend 10,000gp to repair a cracked Ioun Stone he had my character find. Is that ridiculous in the standard setting?

OK... if it were me running the game, I'd do something like this...

The former mine owners were driven off, the account books burnt by the were-rats, and there is no record of how much ore was un-smelted. As a result, the players get away with it.
They smelt the ore, and they get their incredibly meagre haul.

Meanwhile, that lich, scrying carefully, knows what went one, and sends not a band of thugs, but a merchant to buy this ore, at a very reasonable price... He tells the players they were watched "by a scout" as they left the mine, by a regular buyer of silver from the mine, who is grateful of the service to the city and community that they have served by reopening the mine. The merchant asks them to consider if they would care to work for his employer in the future, if he ever needs more items sourced.
in the Lich's mind, the players are what would, in communist East Germany, have been described as "Useful idiots" - a group of muscle with less common sense than skill, who can be hired, persuaded, or otherwise poked in the right direction to do work that the Lich needs doing, without ever realising who they are working for. If pressed, the merchant will state that it is an eminent researcher into the magical arts who values his privacy and discretion. The merchant may, in fact, not even know the Lichs' identity himself, being simply yet another Useful Idiot, a financial front for the Lichs' wealth, which he plays like a puppet as just one of many faces he presents to the world.

Several weeks after the ore theft, the players begin to hear rumours that they are wanted men. Further investigation hears that the magistrate has discovered the mine is open, and clear. And summons have been made, requesting the presence of the party members to the court.

continued....

>>46852589
Continued.

With any luck, as the players learn of the fact that summons have been made for them, they will assume they are Wanted, Dead or Alive.

In fact, they are requested to return, because the magistrate, and the owners of the mine have realised that this noble group of self-less adventurers have cleared out the mine, and then simply left, eschewing the generous reward that was offered. Unable to work out why they would do such a thing, they have managed to leap to the conclusion that they acted for the good of the city, and for the lord of the realm, as fine upstanding citizens.

As such, the lord has instructed the magistrate to ensure summons, so that they may be lauded and granted the investiture in the Freedom of the City. But they will hopefully never know this, as they're going to liely assume you're an evil dick of a GM, and have a bounty on their head.

Further down the line, posters of the players will appear on the walls of places they go to, and NPCs will remark of "Eh, I've seen your faces. City of -- wants a word with you, dont they?". Later on, after other exploits reveal they are certainly alive, the magistrate will enhance the posters, with a small reward (1/20th the reward they would've had?) for information on the whereabouts of the people. Later on they might have people - perhaps "Assassins", at first glance - come after them, having "hunted them down" for the reward. If they dont stop and listen to what's going on, they might think they're being brought back to justice by a bounty hunter - not invited back by a messenger.

They've given themselves enough rope to hang themselves with.
But its much more fun to loop it around their feet, and drag them along on their backsides for a while. See how far their assumptions and guilty conscience can carry them, OP.

>>46852524
>>46852584
D&D wealth is not remotely illogical given historical standards. It was normal for mid ranking Roman officials to get like a ton of gold a year, or so (500k). That's just wages alone.

There will eventually be reached a tier where the wealth involved will be beyond historical comparison, if the PCs progress to level 40 or 50 or so, but just throwing 10k around is nothing.

>>46852713
And this is as far as the higher ends are concerned. of course D&D's lower tier economy is nonsense, since it has no practical effect.

>>46851608
>>46852043

You can't compare modern prices with ancient ones because we're industrialized. Bread back then was way more expensive relatively. Wheat was harvested by hand and ground to flour by rubbing two big rocks together.

>>46852224
DnD pricing gives you that 93.5GP.

Real world pricing gives you significantly less.

And if you just want us all to pull numbers out of our asses, then the tard going "muh silver" still hasn't got a leg to stand on, because his asspull won't have anything to recommend it over the numbers of anyone else.

>>46851313
>garlic aioli
why do people specify this?
is there some kind of non-garlic aioli that I dont know about?
you dont say hand slap or foot kick do you?
it's a fucking moot point there is no other kind of aioli
why am I so unreasonably mad at this?

>>46853111
while foot kick is a but tougher to reconcile, there are many reasonable and commonly associated slaps that can be done without a hand.

I think the fact that garlic aioli had to be specified lends credence to the opportunity that there could indeed be non-garlic aioli, and therefore should be something investigated.

>>46853111
>is there some kind of non-garlic aioli that I dont know about?
Signs point to yes. The signs being Google and Wikipedia.

>>46851776
Steel would be worth more than Silver irl

>>46853263
>>46853302

>non-garlic aioli
at that point it's just mayonnaise though isn't it?

>>46853111
>you dont say hand slap or foot kick do you?
but you DO say head-butt.
checkmate.

>>46853343
not necessarily. Egg is only used in some aioli (most France), and the garlic could potentially be replaced with something else. "Pure" aioli is considered to be just garlic, water, and oil, with no additional emulsifiers..

>>46851279
The two groups were actually engaging in a cold war style standoff, trying to keep the other from gathering their weakness.

>>46851486
Look, it's a matter of principle anon. Give a man garlic aioli and you've fed him for a day, build a silver mine around him and you've turned him into a wererat for life, you see?

>>46851178
Why didn't the party realise they could of just swapped the swords back...

>>46851823
It's not a metric ton of silver. It's a metric ton of silver ORE.
Silver ore isn't hunks of unrefined silver, it's hunks of worthless rocks with tiny traces of silver in them that need to be processed to be separated from the worthless rock.

In the end, a metric ton of ore might net you a few pounds of actual silver at best.

>>46853111
>Since the late 1980s, it has become fashionable to call all flavored mayonnaises "aioli", with flavorings such as saffron, chili. However, purists insist that "flavored mayonnaise can contain garlic, but true aïoli contains no seasoning but garlic".

From wikipedia

>>46853713
but by that logic, perri-perri, tartar sauce, ranch dressing, thousand island, and honey mustard are all aioli, but contain no garlic, and aioli is basically garlic in italian.

nothing makes sense.
fuck logic i guess

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What kind of ore is it, anyways? Certain types of silver ore weigh a fuckton more than others and also have a very low silver content, like galena.

>>46853781
And cheeseburgers apparently come from German city Cheesburg, just 150km from Hamburg

>>46853962
you're killing me please stop i can't handle this shit

>>46853111
Hi, Spaniard anon here. Aioli, called allioli in my province, is made solely of garlic and olive oil, which gives it its name (all-i-oli, literally garlic-and-oil). While its possible to have non-garlic aioli, its name implies garlic.
Also, its piss easy to do, make it at home!

>>46853411
My family would have your head in a pike for saying that you need water. Aioli purist use ONLY garlic and oil, they get the water from mashing the garlic up.

>>46853824

Well he posted Galena while talking about silver ore, so he probably got a lot of galena.

Hope they enjoy their lead poisoning!

>>46852524
If a dragon hoard exists, then that money always existed in the economy.

>>46852802
How much wheat did they need for one bread then, what the fuck?

>>46853111

Do not make me pimp-hand-slap you upside your head-face.

>>46854666
well yes, so you have water, garlic, and oil. If it was just (dried) garlic and oil, then you wouldn't need to emulsify it.

(Of all the types of aioli I've heard about, I also would prefer the spanish variety)