Battletech General: Is This Yours? Edition

Ha ha, Butte Hold.

>>46808239
Manufacturer data for variants in general is spotty.
Sometimes the fluff text might mention a specific make or model of weapon, often they don't.

>>46808254
Maybe they should GIT GUD

Given the choice, which merc u it would you rather serve with, circa 3066m

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>>46808271
Eh, that's the price you pay for variants. ONN designs are literally a few sentences.

>>46808286
3066k? I dunno, pretty sure most of the mercenaries would be dead by then. Except Atleast Itsnot. I'd serve with him.

>>46808254
>CGL said that they're moving away from including manufacturing data in future products, because they're tired of having to keep track of everything and tired of being caught out by fans who have every manufacturer for every faction for every game year in a 200GB spreadsheet.
>Evidently, that last is not an exaggeration, and everytime they release a product, they get angry emails from the guy.

Maybe /btg/RO should adopt this practice

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>>46808265
>Cyclopic Butte Hold

>>46808313
you play that campaign too much

>>46808278

Maybe you people shouldn't be such cunts to the hardoworking folks trying to make this game work.

>>46808324
It's only been 17 years of game time and 441 successful missions. Either the saves will break or the files will break 20mb a campaign save.

And he's only been in my game for 5 years. Solahma a shit

>>46808313
It can be sensible in some cases. For instance variants made out in the field would never have a standardized model for its weapons, at least until some manufacturer starts making kits for it. And even then you'd still have folks cobbling the same thing out of what they have anyway, if only becasue who wants to wait 6-8 months for delivery? And given how expensive interstellar travel is supposed to be, shipping and handling must be a real bitch.

As for omnis, it should matter less in theory. As long as the weapon is all properly podded up, who made it shouldn't matter as much.

>>46808254
Who doesn't have that stuff in a spreadsheet? It's one of the most valuable things in a campaign, knowing what parts/vehicles are produced locally. The better question is, if everybody has one of these, why does nobody official check it?

I can't recall many mistakes from them though, just intentional stuff that sucked like when they would sneakily kill lines of machines like the pocket hammer BJ-3 line for the PP P-hawk.

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>>46808286
TO THE LAST I GRAPPLE WITH THE
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
FOR HATE'S SAKES I SPIT MY LAST BREATH AT ME

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>>46808286
Is this even a question?
REMOVE GOON REMOVE GOON

>>46808428
>>46808477

This got me thinking. Wasn't this the last headliner fight of the straight unseen? I can't recall any of the other old bastards still trucking along after this.

>>46808517
yeah. it was the last ride with the devil for the 3025 classics

>>46808313
Where is that from?

>>46808354
...I honestly can't tell, is this a very subtle troll or has this guy suffered serious cranial trauma one time too many?

>>46808734
The Against the Bot campaign from Hell.
If you mean the software, MekHQ. An addon for MegaMek.

>>46808735

He could - COULD - also be serious and think the fanbase expects too much of the devs and writers.

I mean, it's possible. Unlikely, because to a man the devs don't actually do ENOUGH work to justify being paid, much less paid what they get from residuals and per-word fees. But it's possible.

>>46808323
Im honestly not sure how I feel feel about this one. Its a good design, but it just seems too fat to be a cyclops, from that angle at least/

>>46808313
Wow, that is mofo has, like, negative 3 gunnery

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>>46809196
That's not including the Mech quirks either. He can reliably hit on 3s at extreme range if he ran. It's what all Clanaboos want, but no one sane will let them have.

>>46809241
If you showed up with this to a tournament I would slap you

>>46809452
Since I'd never bring Atleast Itsnot to any game, I'm safe. I guess. Plus those quirks cost 1/5 the C-Bills of the mech.

Interested in theories about how the FWL will handle the Regulan military and what it will do with the 26 regiments or so freed up in the wake of Regulan reincorporation.

>>46809740
Take revenge on the Wolves who are in turn taking revenge on the Falcons, thus allowing Adders & Friends to become ilClan together through the power of friendship(tm).

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>>46809241
So that's what, 5s at LOS range?

Even with the ERPPCs dropped to 11 damage due to it, Jesus fucking Christ.

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>>46809936
Doesn't matter to Blake, my friend.

>>46810004
RIP

mini bump

Does a small shield give a penalty to weapons fire from that arm even when it's in passive mode?

>>46811210
All shields do.
Active = can't attack from that arm or any area protected
Passive = +2 to hit from attacks using that arm
Inactive = +1 to hit from attacks using that arm

>>46811325
I'm working on a design with a small shield on each arm. Guess that kinda screws it

>no design where the barrel is inside the shield

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>>46811342
Use a mech turret anon.

Ignore the fact that the MP is fucked up in pic related.

>>46811433
what's with the grenade launchers?

>>46811433
The turrets count as part of the torso and still get blocked by the passive shield though don't they?

>>46811486
My first guess would be anti-infantry defense. It's got nothing else to deal with a swarm attack, but VGLs work at Range 0 and don't carry any ammo that can get explode-y if the heat spikes. They can also deploy smoke for instant cover, or chaff for spoofing missiles, so the flexibility might have appealed to him.

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Reposting this from the previous thread.

So my wife picked out her first lance:
1 Crab (CRB-20)
1 Scorpion (SCP-1N)
1 King Crab (KCG-0000)
1 Great Turtle (GTR-1)

Being honest the great turtle scares the hell out of me, the rest I figure I can outmaneuver but that hardened armor and targeting comp w/ x-pulse lasers. Also I keep telling her she should paint them as a Lyrian scout lance.

Also I'm looking for feedback on these AI rules.

>>46811705
>Lyran scout lance.

>>46811622
>It's got nothing else to deal with a swarm attack, but VGLs work at Range 0

Only A/B pods are range 0 for vehicular units, and are the only thing that can immediately effect a swarm/leg attack.

VGLs effect the three adjacent hexes of their firing arc. So they can be good infantry deterrents when loaded with frag, but only before they get on top of you.

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>>46811622
Mostly the flexibility. I tend to put them on my designs if I have the room.

>>46811610
Active Defense Mode (ADM)
With this mode, the shield arm(s) will actively protecting shield arm itself, side-torso shield is attached, center torso, and the Head. Rear, Legs and the opposing arm are not protected. These protected sections can not conduct any Weapons and Physical attacks while shield is in Shield is in Active Defense Mode.

Passive Defense Mode (PDM)
This mode partially protect the 'Mech, limiting to the shield's mounted arm and the side-torso the arm it attached to. Unlike Active, protected section may use mounted weapon and equipment at a +2 for it's to-attacks rolls. Shield Bash attack ability maybe used while in Passive Mode.

Inactive Defense Mode (IDM)
Inactive Mode only protects the arm that the shield is mounted on. Weapons attacks from weapon using this arm suffer a +1 to-hit modifier.

It's been forever since I made this thing, but I took this to mean as long as it's in passive mode you can use the torso gear and the pulse mod negates the penalty. It's a goofy fucking mech that was made for the lulz for than anything that would ever, ever be practical.

Pic related may or may not have been the inspiration. I really can't remember.

Question for the Purple Bird fans here. Considering how outclassed the Taurians were went they went after the FedSuns, what with Hasek's mercs, the Roughriders campaign and Operation Matador, how would the FWLM fare with the Magistracy of Canopus in a similar era?

Say it's 3062 and the CCAF is balls deep in the St. Ives conflict, Isis Marik has been ejected from the CapCon and Thomas decides to launch a punitive invasion of the Magistracy in response for reasons a parliamentary subcommittee wrote up or whatever.

How might such a war go?

>>46812003
Depends entirely on how cooperative the Anduriens are. It's basically where you'd have to stage the whole operation from.

>>46811894
>Passive Defense Mode (PDM)
>This mode partially protect the 'Mech, limiting to the shield's mounted arm and the side-torso the arm it attached to. Unlike Active, protected section may use mounted weapon and equipment at a +2 for it's to-attacks rolls. Shield Bash attack ability maybe used while in Passive Mode.

Yeah, that fucks it

>>46812003
Pretty much what >>46812139 said. Although given the MoC buddying up with the CC, Andurien would probably go for it.

>>46812170
>>46812139
>>46812003
Posted too soon

The FWL would go deeper than balls. The MoC was even more of a joke than the TC at this point, in every way. Few heavies, shitty pay-for-promotion military, small size, just nothing.

>>46812139
>Depends entirely on how cooperative the Anduriens are.
They hate the Liaos and would be happy to see Liao enemies (the former allies that used them and tossed them to the wolves) be taken down a peg, obviously.
Plus you'd actually be staging it from other worlds and Andurien doesn't have a military so if they "cooperate" it doesn't really mean shit.

>>46812215
Haven't they got a provincial military back by then?

>>46812139
>>46812170
Andurien's cooperation is utterly an irrelevant point though.

At worst they'd be "neutral" to avoid picking sides, but the resources of the duchy and its military industry would still go to the war due to federal oversight.

>>46812236
Nope. It was federal troops that defended their worlds during the Liao raids in the 3060s.

when can we expect more info about past 3145 time?

I can't wait for the RotS to go full dominator mode with SUPER HEAVY TRIPODS

>>46812236
No, most of their defenses are Free Worlds Legions and provincial militia that are 'mech-less.

>>46812253
>implying superheavy tripods will dominate anything

>>46812191
I imagine one Thera battle group would pretty much seal the deal. Theoretically you could use a task force of 3-4 mech regiments and just go world to world wrecking all the Canopian industry and defending units without being stopped.

>>46812215
Most of the munitions and shit would be coming from places like Lopez, Andurien, Xanthe and Shiro III. Short as fuck supply line of only 1-2 jumps to the main MoC worlds including the capitol as well. You'd sure as shit base your forces out of there instead of nearly periphery-tier backwater independents like Watermael or wherever.

Don't forget Anduriens were starting to kick up shit in that part of the 3060's again as well. Remember the famous picture from Lopez? "Andurien for Anduriens" "Blake Go Home" and all that?

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>>46812280
>I imagine one Thera battle group would pretty much seal the deal. Theoretically you could use a task force of 3-4 mech regiments and just go world to world wrecking all the Canopian industry and defending units without being stopped.

I approve this plan.

>>46812327
Yes, and the military resources on those worlds are under federal control, plus the populace isn't going to care about Liao puppets getting slapped around. To add, given the military district HQ is on Ryerson I'm fairly certain the FWLM already has military operations plans routed through there in the event of some civil unrest, and an established logistics network to the garrisons on Eleusis, Payvand, etc. I do recall that by the 3060s secessionist fervor had largely disappeared (though the Jihad and the revealing of Fake Thomas changed that). So I don't see any active resistance to FWLM operations.

>Jihad where the FWL, WoB, and Capellan March tag-team the cappies to death
I want this

>>46813012
Who doesn't?

>>46813131

*Raises Hand*

>>46813131
Me.

I mean, I'd have just liked it if St Ives didn't suddenly XIN SHENG after Sian got hit.

>>46813131
I'd take it if and only if the FWL nukes itself out of existence right afterwards. Because god damn the FWL circlejerk in here is strong. 90% of the alternate history ideas that pop up here exist to invoke FWL STRONK and shit on unpopular factions.

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>>46813914
Every time you throw your little temper tantrums about the FWL I like them a little bit more.

>>46813980
And everytime this thread throws their little temper tantrum about bears and caps I hate them a little less.

>>46813131
Me. Removing the Capellans from the setting isn't really a great benefit to it.

XIN SHENG bullshit though can take a flying leap off a cliff, its obnoxious not fun or beneficial to the setting.

>>46813131
I don't. Fuck the WoB, they're a trash meme faction and besides which, they killed the FWL, so I really don't get why so many FWL fans also like the WoB

>>46814704
Because they aren't faggots like you

>>46814100
Then why stay? Do you like being angry or something?

>>46813914
Is this common bait or something? Need to know before I reply seriously to the irrational butthurt.

>>46815389
It's not an especially common bait, but it's certainly bait

>>46815370
Because this is the best place to discuss battletech when FWLposting isn't happening, and is the only effective place to hear about /btg/RO.

>>46815576

Haven't heard anything about the /btg/RO since we got the major blog update and people started talking about it on the OF.

>>46815576
>FWLposting
so basically mentioning any faction is Factionposting.

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>>46815906
Ultimately, yes. BT would be better without factions at all due to the type of player tabletop games attract.

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>>46815947

>>46815974
He's right though. We see every faction, even the littlest and weakest, attracting irrational hatred. Look at the sperg who has the kneejerk reaction to cry about "FWLposting" over nothing.

>>46815947
I learned that taking a Tau army into a mostly-IG neighborhood.

>>46816008
I've long had a thing where I can almost immediately disregard any comment/not bothering continuing conversation with anyone referring to their preferred faction in any game as 'we', as they're clearly far too invested to have a reasonable discussion.

But having no factions would have killed the game due to lack of player investment. It's a fine line, you've just got to avoid the tards and being that invested in factional bias/politics is an easy litmus test.

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Let's move the subject on.

Lyrans, how do you get out of this mess?

>>46816162
Start orbital dropping social generals in superheavies loaded to the gills with mg ammo until either enemies are gone, or social generals. Then promote all the competent officers and proceed to actually be somewhat decent for once.

Alternatively, Julian Davion magically fixes the situation and Elsie once again spreads her legs for STRONG DAVION MAN.

>>46816162
Nukes.

Or Fafnirs. More Fafnirs are always cool.

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>>46816162
I'm sure that a miraculous recovery and sudden increase in strength is possible...
For a price

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>>46816162

>>46816162
Wait for Green Burd's warrior caste to erupt into civil war, then get Skye back.

Also, more industry in the old RWR planets. Barring a second Clan invasion angling that way, they are the most protected and unexploited part of the LC.

>>46816324
Like Skye won't just say "fuck off" to everybody again, and finally succeed at secession.

>>46816162
Try and play the Falcons and Wolves off against each other as they're already pretty stretched.

Dig in hard, counter attack only occasionally, hope the long game works out as the clans redirect towards Earth for Ilclan shenanigans.

>>46816356
Skye is the Quebec of Battletech.

>>46816405
Without the delicious poutine and strategic maple syrup reserve.

And strip clubs.

>>46816488
It still baffles me that poutine was invented by quebec and not by cajuns or kentucky country boys or something. Like, it's such a southern-style food

>HABeas2
>Third and Fourth Succession Wars. The rest are expendable.

Herb Status: [X] Dinosaur

>>46816979
Well, 'cajuns being acadians, being new world French stock, I can see how their food would have similarities.

Munnin is doing an editing pass on the sample mechs, getting ready to release them shortly. I believe "shortly" means "end of April" but that may just be my jetlagged memory saying that.

>>46816162

Pack up my shit and fuck off to the periphery

>>46817295
Good point. I didn't think of that

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>2
Wait, what was the 1?

>>46817974
>He doesn't iterate.
Spoiler: The Kitefin you saw could be called the Kitefin 7B.

>>46817309
I was gonna say abandon the outer provinces and conquer Terra.

>>46814511

I like the Xin Sheng myself.

Seems like it breathed some new life in the Confederation lore wise.

>>46819186
It did, and brought it a lot of new fans, but it also drove away a lot of old ones that liked their mixed-bag socialist underdogs. But that's what happens when lore moves along; some people get left behind. There are other factions, or you don't even need to commit to one. Such is the flexibility of the fluff in a game like Battletech.

Xotl, don't be the voice of reason in an argument.

>>46819243
I really enjoyed XIn Sheng in the early years when it was about pairing a social resurgence with a slaving Liao to an increasingly powerful Marik in a feudal sense and rebuilding in a way that, to me, felt well-grounded in BT political realities. As it became somewhat more Liao Smash, where the Capellans seemed able to just do what they want, it grew less fun for me: the explanation behind the Capellan Solution has always irritated me, for instance.

>>46819342
What was the explanation? I never read those books.

>>46819327
Sorry, it's the Canadianness in me. We now return to your regular shitposting.

Jews did the HPG blackout, praise Blake, BT Pogs should replace all existing product lines.

>>46819342

> Liao Smash

Well, so far the Capellans haven't really been doing anything they said they weren't from the beginning.

From what quotes that I've read, Sun Tzu basically said the days of the Confederation being victimized by it's neighbors and accepting the hand dealt to them was over.

What have they really done that's been out of character for them so far?

>>46819364
IIRC (and it's been a while; I should re-read them), Sun-Tzu conned the 2nd League into using Star League troops to facilitate the Confederation's reabsorption of the St. Ives Compact. At the time, it felt very silly, but again, it's been a while and maybe a re-read will make it gel better.

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>>46808229
.
does the hip and leg articulation (or apparent lack thereof) on some of the humanoid mech designs, like the Atlas, bother anyone else?

>>46819451
No, it really doesn't. Dagger Point was a shit novel, and the Eridani Light Horse were turned into complete fucking idiots to make it work. And Sun Tzu used the Maskirovka as guerillas to make it seem like the SiC was turning lawless (mainly by killing planetary leaders and their families), then sending in the nuSLDF as "peacekeepers." He then had the SLDF units get attacked by the local populace by egging the civvies into it, and when the SLDF units got trashed, swapped them for Capellan House Units. No one batted a fucking eyelash.

>>46819538
> No one batted a fucking eyelash.

To be fair, wasn't everyone's concerns more on the Clans, the imminent Civil War and the Federated Commonwealth?

They may have just seen it as a Capellan matter.

Also, George Hasak apparently cared as he later launched an offensive to reclaim the compact before the Jihad caused things to go awry.

>>46819342
Also, the whole "convincing their second-longest (or maybe actually longest, I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact dates so far back)-standing enemies to literally send their troops to die for them" and the whole "talking a nation completely opposed to them into doing a 180 to become their best friends" thing were pretty egregious

>>46819602

>the imminent Civil War and the Federated Commonwealth?

Meant "the imminent Civil War in the Federated Commonwealth.

>>46819602
>before the Jihad caused things to go awry.
Not so much that as
>before the CCAF shouted "XIN SHENG" even louder and powered up to wreck his troops

>>46819602
Yeah the way his character was described and written in FM:FS and Imminent Crisis never really meshed well with his Jihad self. Like he had to go retarded to move the plot along and explain why New Avalon wasn't getting reinforcements.

>>46819636

>second-longest

I think House Davion has always been both their longest and primary enemy.

>>46819602
IIRC, Candace Liao brought it up before the Star League council and most of them called it an internal matter, despite the new rules of the Star League preventing the rotating First Lord from doing exactly what Sun Tzu did. The only people who cared were Victor and co. But you also have to remember that this is also when Yvonne Davion, surrounded by a fuckload of DAVION DAVION DAVION advisors just handed the keys to the FC to Katherine. It's genuinely terrible writing all around, and I hate how the Candace plotline fizzles. Also, don't forget, Victor lets Sun-Tzu invade *and* keep fucking Tikonov during the FCCW, because his faction had no troops to take the world and Katherine was the bigger deal. Coleman a shit.

>>46819538
That was about how I recalled things, in tone if not in the specific details.

>>46819431
It's not so much out of character as punching above their weight. The idea of taking advantage of a crumbling FedCom alliance with the help of a strong FWL and slowly reabsorbing the Chaos March was something that made sense to me. Sun-Tzu being the second coming of, well, Sun-Tzu and getting away with stuff like the above seemed less plausible. Overall, the sense I personally got from later elements of the Capellan resurgence was the universe being willing to play along a bit too much. Then again, most of the Capellan activities in the Jihad worked for me. 3145 I'm still on the fence about: we'll see how that turns out, though I'd note that the precedence of a military (such as the AFFS) turning to utter crap has plenty of historical precedence and even BT precedence (1st Succession War).

But I'm not as invested in Capellan stuff as I am in, say, ComStar's willingness to say "meh" to Earth, my personal plot bugbear. The Capellan thing is just a minor bit of tone issue in some spots compared to that.

>>46819722

>Tikonov

Wasn't that a Capellan Commonality World taken in the Fourth Succession War?

I thought they were just reclaiming it.

>>46819722
It would have been amusing if Victor's warships had just splashed the Warrior House when they appeared in Tikonov space and never said shit.

Meanwhile Sun-Tzu would be twiddling his thumbs back on Sian thinking "I wonder how my latest foolproof scheme is going :DDDD"

>>46819691
Nah. The taurians fought a long and bitter batch of wars with the liaos long before the reunification war, which was what really kicked off the davion-hate. It's been somewhat downplayed in recent stuff, because it clashes with the Xin Sheng stuff, but it was a thing, as was hating Liao for it

>>46819722

Then quit bitching and go kill him already.

>>46819776
In Operation Guerrero how did the CCAF push 2-3 times their numbers in non-Lyran AFFC defenders out of the Sarna March? That part never got detailed as far as I've found. There were FedCom RCTs, Syrtis Fusiliers, Crucis Lancers, Robinson Rangers, Avalon Hussars and more on station.

>>46819602

OTOH, all the stuff in CA's post is happening after the magical bullshit of Guerrero, where the Caps completely BTFO the AFFS despite the AFFS having several dozen (really good, really well-equipped) regiments in the area. And being given WarShips by the FWL.

And having riots spring up on worlds that one generation ago were under the brutal thumb of the Mask and who had watched Romano's purges, with Sun-Tzu's public performances as being *worse* in every way than his mother play out, demanding that they be returned to the CapCon.

What the shit?

Also, the eyes of everyone were on the St. Ives/CapCon conflict, because the SLDF peacekeepers were from all across the Inner Sphere. But that turned out to be cool in the end because Anastasius Focht worked out a deal where Sun-Tzu got everything he wanted because he's just such a genius.

The issue people take with Xin Sheng is the speed with which the number of incredibly fortuitous things happened to transform the CapCon from the butt of many jokes to being a top-tier power with the best and smartest state leader presiding over the best-performing state military. They pretty much flipped the switch from "suck" to "TOTAL DOMINATION" overnight.

Unsurprisingly, people take issue with the plausibility of that.

>>46819850
Never been explained that I recall, though Brush Wars II was to have covered it (if that book is still on the schedule; it was mentioned years ago on the forums). I wish whoever the author of that was/is the best of luck. It's one of the worst parts of the Capellan revival.

>>46819956
I didn't think Brush Wars II was a real thing. Was it mentioned what other conflicts would be covered in it?

>>46819777
>This is what MadCap actually believes.
No, Victor captures the planet (Got that reversed) and Sun Tzu sends a Warrior House to totes support Victor, and since Victor was throwing pretty much everything he had at New Avalon, Victor and all of his advisors suddenly throw all their brains into a bin and go "Yep, garrison this world for me. I can trust you." And Victor is shocked, *shocked* I tell you, that it was planned.

>>46819850
Guererro will never, ever get a book because of how much bullshit went on. Even if there was a Brush Wars II book, as >>46819956 says.

>>46819838
I'm afraid of the porch attempting to eat me. Or his son paying the porch to eat me.

>>46819850

I was under the impression the Confederation had a considerable mercenary backing (from the Free Worlds League) and had been planning the operation for sometime.

>>46820011
The FWLM didn't have THAT many mercs on the rolls.

>>46819994
>Or his son paying the porch to eat me.
Is there a recording of that livestreamed game? I want to see that shit again.

>>46819989
It was mentioned as being planned, but then again, so was a TacOps HexPack, and that was cancelled. Things change, and who knows where it sits right now.

As for what would be in it, I can't recall. I could check my files, but if it wasn't mentioned publicly I probably shouldn't say. I would assume the first Combine-GB War would be in, though. There would be one other I'm sure, as two small wars doesn't seem big enough for a book. What's left?

>>46820011
>>46820040

For some reason only the number of CCAF and borrowed Merc units factor into Guerro.

That the AFFS literally has the troops and resources in the region to throw 4-5 RCTs at every planet the Capellans struck remains curiously unexamined.

XIN SHENG XIN SHENG

>>46820094
St. Ives war? Taurian invasion of the FedSuns? The Marian wars? Just trying to think of some conflicts.

>>46820095
I can only count 12 regiments of FWLM-employed mercs that either assaulted worlds for the CCAF/ZdG in force or staged deep raids in support. Almost none of them remained in action after the FWL sued for peace.

>>46820095

>throw 4-5 RCTs at every planet the Capellans struck remains curiously unexamined.

Maybe they were preoccupied with other things or their overall command was in disarray.

As I recall, there was a large amount of chaos caused in the Federated Suns when the Lyrans broke away from the Federated Commonwealth broke away and formed the "Lyran Alliance", wasn't there?

>>46820324

In the Lyran half I could buy that since Katherine was asserting command and some people were genuinely unsure of who to follow.

The AFFS command remained entirely intact, with Victor right on hand to order the defence of his worlds.

He doesn't, though, because XIN SHENG XIN SHENG.

>>46820324
Doesn't actually explain how the sheer number of better trained, equipped and more experienced AFFS commands on garrison were pushed out.

Or where Morgan Hasek-Davion was and what the Capellan March command was doing. I don't think he's ever even mentioned in "Bred for War".

A Capellan March-St. Ives attack into the Sian Commonality would have put an end to the CCAF invasion in a month.

>>46820324
There hasn't been an excuse, which is the problem. The whole event is just "CC takes the Terran Corridor, fuck errybody."

>>46820392
To be fair, the AFFC command would have been frazzled trying to get those AFFC units who didn't want to stay in the Lyran Alliance... for about 10 minutes. Also, like >>46820401 said, Morgan Hasek-Davion was still alive at this time, and was actually a competent commander, and was the damn Prince's Champion still.

>>46820426

Morgan wasn't just the Prince's Champion or the Duke of the Capellan March. He was also the Marshal of the Armies and commanded the entirety of the AFFC.

He could have ordered (and lead) the defensive on his own.

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>>46820401
>>46820426
>>46820523
Maybe Morgan was on vacation. He's a person with needs too. Still, imagine his face when he got back to the office...

>>46820401

>Doesn't actually explain how the sheer number of better trained, equipped and more experienced AFFS commands on garrison were pushed out.

Maybe they were disrupted or were caught completely by surprise and overran?

They may have also gotten lax at their posting. A lot of the lore seems to indicate that many in the Federated Suns considered the Capellans not to be much of an issue after the Fourth Succession War.

>A Capellan March-St. Ives attack into the Sian Commonality would have put an end to the CCAF invasion in a month.

Maybe Candace didn't want to go to war with the Capellans over that or refused to comply with any plan that would put her nation at risk with a Confederation that, even if it lost, could have inflicted severe damage on St Ives.

As to the Capellan March, maybe unseen politics had something to do with things.

>>46820600
>Maybe they were disrupted or were caught completely by surprise and overran?
But virtually all the units were also INTACT after the operation. Like they saw almost no serious combat.

>As to the Capellan March, maybe unseen politics had something to do with things.
I'd like to see those politics since they had such a big impact yet were never mentioned.

Shit like this with no answers but desperate supposition is why players want answers.

>>46820600
>Maybe Candace didn't want to go to war with the Capellans over that or refused to comply with any plan that would put her nation at risk with a Confederation that, even if it lost, could have inflicted severe damage on St Ives.
Candace didn't go to war with the Confederation even when her husband was assassinated by her sister. Instead she just went to Sian, revenged herself upon Romano, told Sun Tzu she'd fuck him up if he tried anything, and left. At no point did she try and take the throne from the other side of the family.

>>46820523
Right, I couldn't remember when he stood down from the Marshal of the Armies post. Or even if he did, come to think of it.

>>46820600
I can buy laxness/overconfidence happening in places. I can't buy it happening across the entire combat theatre.

As for surprise, this is difficult to achieve in BT due to jump signatures and radar tracking incoming Dropships. Some of the attacks could have come via pirate point, but even overusing this already overused reasoning (pirate point attacks happen a lot in BT for a supposedly risky, rare tactic), it still doesn't cut it, IMO.

And of course, we're not talking one on one combat, but large numbers of Davion troops. the CC attackers should have generally been outnumbered.

There are reasons that could conceivably explain some of the success. I just don't think there's enough to explain how overwhelming it was in most places.

>>46820676

>But virtually all the units were also INTACT after the operation. Like they saw almost no serious combat.

That does raise some questions actually.

Did they flee or get orders to pull back or something?

>>46820765
Disguised droppers? I remember the Cappies were using them in Wars of the Republic Era.

>>46820600

>Maybe they were disrupted or were caught completely by surprise and overran?

The Capellan March has about twice as many regiments stationed in it as the CCAF (plus Merc reinforcements) had at the time.

Morgan Hasek-Davion was the legal commander of the AFFC/AFFS and could have called in troops from the Draconis and Crucis Marches as needed, and hire mercs.

>As to the Capellan March, maybe unseen politics had something to do with things.

"Unseen politics" being enough to stop the people who have a mad hate-on for the Capellans responding in any way, at any level, to a major invasion and long string of defeats?

The problem people have with the Capellan side of Guerrero is that it requires everyone in the AFFC/AFFS to be not just dumb but deliberately, maliciously incompetent while everyone on the CCAF side is justified by XIN SHENG.

The writers could have come up with a more plausible plot line like having the ZdG seed rebellions on 4-5 worlds that were established a few novels prior then had the Capellans conduct a much more limited offensive aimed at recapturing those then spin it as a big win PR-wise. Stuff like that could have worked.

No one plot thread with Xin Sheng is terribly implausible, at least if you're willing to go back and do some foreshadowing and tweaking. But what we get from the '57-'60 period is everything going the CapCon's way, no matter how retarded it requires anyone else to be.

>>46819994
>sun-tzu does the Capellan Solution again
>Victor falls for it
KEK

>>46819855
>And being given WarShips by the FWL.
Why the hell did the FWL ever do this? Wasn't the point of the whole Sun-Tzu/Isis thing to hold the CC in line and maybe even absorb it?

>>46821027

>Wasn't the point of the whole Sun-Tzu/Isis thing to hold the CC in line and maybe even absorb it?

Hold them in line for what reason?

Also, I thought the agreement was just a ploy by Sun-Tzu to secure a counterweight to the might of the Federated Suns while also making Hanse Davion sweat?

>>46821027

>Why the hell did the FWL ever do this?

XIN SHENG XIN SHENG

SUN-TZU'S POLITICAL GENIUS

Coleman's patronage.

>>46820828
>No one plot thread with Xin Sheng is terribly implausible
>Free Capella going government
>St.Ives populance asking sun-tzu to come take them over
>Trinity Alliance
>the WarShips
I can't say I agree

>>46819786
That would have been very, very amusing.

I love to see "le mastermind XD" types get BTFO in any setting or story, though, so it's not just Cappie hate.

Where do I buy Battletech stuff besides the Core Set and Alpha Strike boxes(My FLGS has those)

Related: Is there currently a plastic model Uziel out there? If not, where do I buy a metal one?

So what did the Confederation military look like at the time of Operation Guerrero?

I know they had been largely overhauled, but I don't know to what degree.

Also, what was their premier and most widely used mech and did they have any form of Battle Armor by that point?

>>46821156
>I love to see "le mastermind XD" types get BTFO in any setting or story
Shame it didn't happen to Hanse.

>>46820193
The FWL didn't sue for peace, they just sat down and smiled smugly, waiting for the Cappies to get BTFO after being lured into the war.

Too bad they didn't know about Coleman

>>46820826
>le disguised droppers meme

This is bullshit that needs to die. Especially given how often it happens. At this point if I were a Cappie neighbor I would have landing pads with command-detonated explosives under them and anyone who doesn't land at a predesignated position gets blown away by ASF.

>>46821027
There's literally no reason

>>46821312
Hanse has the goods to back it up, though. Even if he was absurdly favored first, there's at least more explanation. Plus he was fighting someone who was legit mentally unstable.

>>46821312

>Shame it didn't happen to Hanse.

To be fair, didn't he have a heart attack after hearing the announcement that Isis and Sun-Tzu were to be wed?

From what I've read, it's implied that did not sit well with him (kind of wanted to read that myself).

>>46821475
Mainly the implication was that Hanse was having heart troubles anyway throughout the Invasion, and Sun Tzu going "Imma take all your Marik refit kits away and threaten you with the Sunny D" was pretty much the "Fuck this, I'm out" moment for Hanse.

Hell, for me there's never been a good explanation for why the FWL didn't just mug the CC either with or after the FS invasion.

>>46821688
Too busy killing Elsies

>>46821335
>The FWL didn't sue for peace
Well Thomas did in the book. With the upper hand, but he was still the one to initiate it.

>>46821027
Were they *given*? I thought the CapCon helped build them and I'm sure they paid for them.

>>46821724
smelly dumb elsie scum

>>46821727
"Suing for peace" has a connotation of being the loser though

>>46821809
I guess. It's still technically correct. I didn't think anyone would care. Would you prefer "smugly offered peace from an advantageous position"?

>>46821909
Yes.

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>>46821963
Then that's what I said now.

Weekly TRO update

http://builtforwar.blog (remove space) spot.com/2016/04/weekly-update-i.html

Writing for normies is hard

When it comes to battles between the Republic and the Confederation, is the Republic the one (non-Periphery) enemy the Capellans can fight and not usually be outnumbered by?

>>46821027
>And being given WarShips by the FWL.
>Why the hell did the FWL ever do this?

The Impavidos? The Capellans built all of the interplanetary drives for the Impavido class, while the primary ship systems were built in the FWL. I'm not sure it's right to say that the FWL just "gave" them the Impavidos when it was a joint agreement to build the ships between the CapCon and the FWL and neither could build the ships without the other, so they agreed to split the proceeds 50/50.

What other WarShips are in question here? I don't have any memory of the FWL just saying something like "here, have a Black Lion."

>>46822482
Why did the FWL even need the Caps to build the drives?

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>>46822546

They hadn't built the factories to build the drives yet. Impavido was a 1st-generation Inner Sphere WarShip; the infrastructure to fully build WarShips for Inner Sphere powers didn't completely exist yet. The Cappies started with drive factories (since that was the "primary bottleneck" to WarShip production), while the FWL built shipyards first.

By the very early 3060s, that infrastructure was in place and the FWL didn't need anybody's help. But the Impavido launched in 3058, which meant it was being built 3056-58 or so. The WarShip production capability that people take for granted in the Civil War era simply wasn't there.

I realize that's probably "fiat", but that's the factual reason. Even the FedCom relyed on ComStar interplanetary drive imports for their first few Foxes until they had factories up and running.

>>46822482
>>46822731
Different anon but it makes sense to me. Of all the Cappie things to complain about the three Impavidos always seemed low priority. It's just three, the Cappies helped build them (with the WoB helping them too) and it makes sense for the Confederation, acting as a meat shield for the League, to have a handful of warships against the anticipated flood of Foxes.

>>46822731
See, even as a diehard cappie hater, I'm ok with this. It makes sense.

>>46822731
>>46822787
>>46823022

The pro-capellan bias here is that the League didn't just accept delivery of the drives and then keep all of the finished product. What would the capellans do if the League kept the ships? Attack the League with their own Warships?

There was every reason for the League to keep the ships and give the capellans nothing, and no reason at all for them to hold to their word. That's where the pro-capellan fiat is. If "porch" Coleman hadn't had a hard-on for the capellans, they hold on to those ships. The capellans never should have gotten them.

>>46823107
>Thomas "muh honor" Marik and the mercantile-oriented FWL as a whole is inducing pro-Cappie fiat by not being dicks to their only ally
Look I don't enjoy Coleman and Xin Sheng and all that too but you're making mountains out of molehills.

>>46820779
>That does raise some questions actually.
>Did they flee or get orders to pull back or something?
Maybe Katherine decided to hand Victor additional problems during the Lyran secession and had those units sent falsified orders to withdraw. By the time they figure out it's all bullshit, the invading forces are already on-planet and too well-entrenched for a hasty counter-attack to dislodge them, and the planning for a proper set-piece counter-offensive got shut down by Vic deciding "Naw, that's what Dad would've done, I need to do this shit MY way."

>>46823107
If they kept the ships, they would never have gotten any more ships and pissed off the Cappies pretty much forever

>>46823165

Be fair. Every molehill *is* a mountain if you're a small enough person.

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>>46823282
good point

>>46819956
It just got revealed that what we got instead of Brush Wars II was "Historical: Wars of the Republic Era"

Found a place to get actual good looking BT minis so now I am faced with the impossible task of actually learning how to play.

The noob breakdown in the op isn't the greatest so am I just better off grabbing the expensive stater even if half of it (those fuckawful minis) will be put in the garbage?


My favourite era is the wars of reaving but no one makes good protomechs so that's entirely moot.

>>46822731
When did the actual drive factories get built? As far as I recall, I remember everyone having to buy from the legendary O'Neil yards on Titan at the beginning (except those who had WoB manning their HPG's) with the WoB later helping the Caps get some drive production online to get some to everyone else.

When did the rest of the IS start producing their own interplanetary drives and where?

Just seemed like one of those "technically impossible" things at the time. Isn't it what killed new warship production knowledge in the first place? The inability to make the giant fusion thrusters except at LAM-tier advanced tech super space factories?

I'm guessing the info is in one of the field manuals I haven't read cover to cover.

>>46823428

>good protomechs

I thought by nature of what they were they weren't supposed to be top notch, but were supposed to be easier to build than a Mech?

Also, whats wrong with the Society's Protomechs?

>>46823449
There was a little bit on that topic in Battlespace, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head

>>46822410
>>46823560
>Also, whats wrong with the Society's Protomechs
Nothing, but they are exclusive to the Society

>>46823612

I thought by 3145 the Clans, namely the Horses, were using some Society Protomechs like the Boggart?

>>46823449

In terms of the CapCon and FWL specifically, the Word of Blake gave them the instructions on how to build the factories they wanted (drive factories for CC, capital shipyards for FWL). No, the dates don't line up (Impavidos taking 2-ish years to build, can't build them without WoB assistance ships done in 3058, WoB isn't in a position to provide aid to the building process until 3058). Chalk it up to FASA fact-checking. Nothing we can do about that.

This is also another situation where factories spring out of existence from whole cloth when needed. Factories don't *ever*, really, take time to build in BattleTech, unless the factory taking time is important to the metaplot.

As for the factions which didn't get direct help from the WoB, once they'd purchased some drives from the O'Neil yards, they reverse-engineered them so they could build the things themselves. That sort of thing happens all the time.in BT, no no huge worry.

And yes, the fact that it's the DRIVES that are the bottleneck instead of the compact K-F cores is utterly idiotic. But that's the way it is, whether we like it or not. Were I to get the power to rewrite AeroTech, this would be one of the major changes I'd make.

>>46823694
Plus the first Impavido launched in 3057 so they were really moving.

>>46823694
It's kinda silly either way, because canon-wise compact cores are simpler and more primitive, but the old pre-DS ships with compact cores also needed interplanetary drives to putter around and offload stuff in orbit.

Also, on the Cap end, I may be misremembering but weren't their factories just Cap in name only. Run by blakists, staffed by blakists, etc. There was like some whole secret system where supplies would go in and drives would come out.

I think Sunny boy kicked them out later but I remember it being kind of a prelude to the secret world craze of the Jihad. Except it was a world on the charts.

>>46823694
Frankly, think that it would have been better if straight-up shipyards and the industry necessary to set up new ones was the bottleneck, rather than any specific component. It would make more sense, IMO

>>46823808
>>46823694
>>46823449
The entire Aerotech side of things is straight up retarded.

>>46823808
>Also, on the Cap end, I may be misremembering but weren't their factories just Cap in name only. Run by blakists, staffed by blakists

Maybe. I swear there was a reason why the drive factory was built in CapCon space (hurr durr fiat) rather than in FWL space near the actual shipyards, but Ii'm not leaving the hockey game to go look it up.

The WoB assistance for the CapCon was more substantial than it was for the FWL, though. And you're correct in that the drive factory in CapCon space was eventually "nationalized" by Sun-Tzu.

I haven't looked up these sorts of details in years, and we are talking about 1994-ish vintage stuff.

>>46823854

*ALL* BattleTech production fluff is retarded. But yes, AeroTech production fluff is more retarded than most.

>>46823891
It's not just the production fluff, it's stuff like JS cores vs compact cores, no monitors because reasons, no effective ground-to-space weapons, it's just all a mess.

>>46823560
I meant Protomech minis. I love protomechs more than life itself.

>>46823664
Some of the ultra heavy protomechs see use in later eras but I have no clue on the timeline.

>>46823962

Well, the existence of monitors completely eliminates the point of playing the WarShip side of the game in the first place, so honestly, I don't *care* what the reasons are, as long as I'm not having to see an 800k-ton ship mounting an extra 380,000 tons of weapons, armor, SI, and drives over my "jump-capable" 800k-ton ship.

But yes, there's a whole LOT of mess in AeroTech. It's never been really thought out, and has actively been discouraged from being thought about by 25 years of line developers, because they don't want to pull focus from the ground game. The question becomes, then, how can it be fixed WITHOUT
a) scrapping the aerospace side of the game universe completely
b) rebooting the game universe from scratch

>An answer of "it can't be fixed without using A or B" is also acceptable

>>46823420
Where?

>>46824154
The fact that you don't give a shit about internal logic or versimilitude doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

>>46824154
NEA I was curious what your thoughts are on the Liberation of Terra Historicals and their descriptions of the Terran Hegemony space defense systems and SLDF and Rim Worlds navies in general.
I've only just read the two historicals and was going to asked /btg/'s opinion of them in general but since you're kind of our AeroTech expert I figured I'd ask your thoughts on them.

The SDS's are really something. The numbers of warships, the amount of drones and automation, it's all just stuff I'm not used to in BT. How many of the Great Houses would it have taken to conquer the pre-Amaris Terran Hegemony?

And was anyone else really impressed with the Rim Worlds military in that coup? I mean that was a serious piece of work, damn.

>>46823664
Actually, the Boggart is one universally rejected post Reaving. Too un Clanlike or some shit. The others seem to be seeing some use, but not outside the Homeworlds.

The Horses are just making their own stuff based on the tech they bought off the Sharks who captured a Bandit caste ship loaded with Society toys.

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>>46824219

Fuck monitors, and fuck you.

And fuck CGL for encouraging people by even addressing the issue of monitors officially in the first place, except to tell people "no."

>>46824156
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50379.msg1201849#msg1201849

>>46824250
>How many of the Great Houses would it have taken to conquer the pre-Amaris Terran Hegemony?

All of them. All the Houses. And they still probably wouldn't win in a straight up fight. Amaris only succeeded as he did by being sneaky.

Even post Amaris and the heavy losses, the SLDF was the biggest military around, and Kerensky still had enough firepower to have steamrolled any single Great House if he wanted to. It's why the Succession Wars only kicked off after he left, and why some people in the Combine freaked the fuck out when the Exodus fleet headed their way, they though Kerensky was coming to fuck them up for not giving even token aid to the SLDF on account of the Kurita hostage Amaris had.

>>46824250
>The SDS's are really something. The numbers of warships, the amount of drones and automation, it's all just stuff I'm not used to in BT. How many of the Great Houses would it have taken to conquer the pre-Amaris Terran Hegemony?

The TH SDS grid was absolutely terrifying, and if the SLDF hadn't had an absolutely overwhelming fleet, the stones to willingly sacrifice a lot of their ships, and a few lucky breaks, they very well could have lost.

As for how many Houses it would have taken to beat the SLN...let me give a couple of numbers as of the FM:2765 reports (these are the canon numbers):

Capellan Confederation - 37 Warships
Draconis Combine - 42 Warships
Federated Suns - 51 Warships
Free Worlds League - 47 Warships
Lyran Commonwealth - 62 Warships
TOTAL: 239 WarShips

Star League - 280 *McKENNAS*

Not "WarShips". McKennas. Just that one ship class.

It's important - for the sake of an honest argument - to remember that while a fair number of SLN personnel were actually from the Great Houses, canonically ZERO ships end up jumping sides to the Great Houses after the Amaris Coup concluded. Presuming these ships would jump sides in the event of all the Houses dog-piling the Hegemony is a stretch, but possible. But we have absolutely ZERO data on these sort of numbers. Being extraordinarily generous, assume that 20% of the SLN's ships are willing to betray their shipmates and the orders they've given their word to serve, lead successful mutinies, and change sides. This adds *roughly* 3000 ships to the 5 Great Houses, making the force ratio "only" something like 3200 ships vs 12000 ships.

It's not *impossible* to win against 4-to-1 odds...but I hope you bought a writer a new house recently if you're dead set on the Houses winning.

>>46824250
>How many of the Great Houses would it have taken to conquer the pre-Amaris Terran Hegemony?
The SLDF could easily take on all of them on in 2765. The House WarShip Fleets *combined* total 239 ships. And the actual mech forces are no better. Assuming post Liberation buildup for the Houses and losses for the SLDF, I'd still say Kerensky could probably take down 2 or 3 of the House militaries, but we'd have an even worse Succession War.

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>>46824294
>bawww

Cry harder fruitcake

>>46824546
>>46824524
>>46824542
I am so fucking tired of SLDF wank. I know you guys didn't write it and you're just relaying that info, but it's still so stupid.

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>>46824542
>>46824250

Oh, wait, new info. There was a Herb teaser I was unaware of.

As of 2786 the Houses could boast:

CC - 153 Hulls
DC - 194 Hulls
FS - 184 Hulls
FWL - 163 Hulls
LC - 216 Hulls
Total: 910 WarShips, though this include Reserves

So the Houses combined are still outnumbered something like 13 to 1. So it doesn't actually CHANGE anything. But these are the more correct numbers for the height of the Great Houses WarShip rosters. My apologies for >>46824542

Xotl, get in here. CA wants to yel-I mean, discuss-revisions with you.

>>46824656
That seems like a HUGE FUCKING RETCON

I mean, a five-fold expansion in numbers? Come on.

Also if Herb is going to stop being the line dev he should actually, like, stop it.

>>46824631
It's why I personally enjoy doubling the numbers of the house ships, or apparently using >>46824656 those numbers, and reducing the SLDF down a lot. The idea that the TH can take out any two or three houses at its height is a pretty compelling "Don't fuck with that guy" message, because no one wants to be first.

>>46824676
I contend that you can earn a bloodname just by being bloodyminded enough to enter Grand Melee after Grand Melee.

>>46824697
The Houses bulked up pretty fucking fierce during the Liberation campaign. Enough to go from the edicts set down by the Star League to the First Succession War. Remember that without someone at the wheel telling them to cut that shit out or make them keep it quiet, no one could tell them no.

>>46824631

Dude, thank you for saying,

>I know you guys didn't write it and you're just relaying that info

at least.

Like I said, the Aerospace side of the game was never really thought through. FASA just listed "big numbers", and it wasn't until fairly late in FASA's life that people started caring enough to limit the numbers to something a little more sane (a trend which extends into CGL, where we can't have more than 2-3 WarShips of a given class now, I guess).

IMO the SLN should have had an active strength of something close to what the Hegemony Navy had: 500 active warships (the Hegemony Armed forces assigned a fleet of 50 warships to each of the 10 corps of the HAF). Contrast that with Great Houses with fleets between 125-150 WarShips each, and you have an SLN that can take on any 2 Houses and still have enough left to give the others pause.

But yeah, the canonical "15,000 ship fleet" of the SLN is pretty unreasonable, yes. Thank you again for taking the numbers at face value and not blaming us for inflating them or something the way people normally keep doing when the topic of the SLDF naval strength comes up. It's not meant to be "Wank" on our end of things.

>>46824656
There's also another four hundred or so in the periphery fleets, FWIW

>>46824806

The Rim wolds has like 300 ships, yes. But like 250 of them are Pintos and Vincents, which barely count as WarShips at all.

400 extra ships wouldn't make a lot of difference agaist a fleet made up of 5% Mckennas, and there's 280 of those.

>>46824791
I actually have no issue at all with them having 15,000 ships, it's everyone else piddling around with a couple of dozen that's the issue. If the SLDF had 15,000 and the LC had 2000, the FWL 3000, FS 2500, etc then it would be no problem. Or your plan of adjusting it down, although I like bigger numbers.

>>46824596
please don't use my custom reaction image for your shitposting

>>46821239
Amazon has the books, and IWM has the minis (including the Uziel, which is still in production). Minis are kinda expensive, though, and I haven't found a better place than IWM.

>>46824852
Adjusting it down makes the most sense, because then you start asking where the hell the fleet that went on the Exodus went, and why haven't the Clans started using it. Or how all the factories necessary for maintenance and production were slagged, since it doesn't seem like it would be too complex if the Lyrans could have a 3000 ship strong fleet.

>>46824905
FRP games for figures in production that aren't online exclusives is a good option. Usually 3-4 dollars off.

>>46823560
I think he's referring to good protomech miniatures, not the designs themselves.

>>46824840
Which is why I said "for what it's worth", which admittedly isn't much.
Now me, I'd cut the SLDF down to ~1500 ships and say 28 mckennas and triple all the house and periphery navies except the RWR, which I'd only double.
But that's just back of the envelope stuff

>>46824294
Monitors would have to be built on-site so would they even be someplace besides the shipyards? That would just be what? 2-3 worlds per state? Doesn't seem like it would matter a ton of places.

Fuckin Terrans couldn't even be arsed to rebuild their SDS in sixty years when the Steel Wolves landed unopposed there in the DA. I don't see giant fleets of monitors anywhere. Maybe conversions for dying warships like the old Invincible or something.

>>46824979
>Fuckin Terrans couldn't even be arsed to rebuild their SDS in sixty years when the Steel Wolves landed unopposed there in the DA.
wait
what

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>>46824888
Fuck you I do what I want

>>46824979
>Monitors would have to be built on-site so would they even be someplace besides the shipyards?

Yardships. A Faslane can transport a 2 million ton ship. Imagine what a 2 million ton monitor could do.

It could certainly kill a Lev II or Lev III without trying especially hard, that's for sure.

>>46825008
Have you read the first few DA novels?
Don't

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>>46825060
Forget monitors. You just need someone to put everything in it's proper place.

>>46824396
Interesting, thanks. So Wars of the Republic was BW 3 - I dind't know that.

Too bad. I would have liked to have had some of the other conflicts fleshed out.

>>46825030
well just don't use its counterpart then

>>46825060
They service ships. You can't transport them. For a normal ship this is obvious since you can't jump within a certain distance of another drive, powered up or not. But even a monitor would need some giant device that acts like a DS collar to bolster the field to move that much mass.

Now, I say monitors should be buildable, but you have to devote 45% of your mass to "structural reinforcement" to replace the K-F core as the ship's backbone, and you can't have a SI over a certain level for <reason>.
Of course, the disgusting DA PWS like the Castrum are basically monitors already, so it's almost a moot point to yak about then

>>46823428
Where'd you get good looking minis?

>>46825172
>but you have to devote 45% of your mass to "structural reinforcement" to replace the K-F core as the ship's backbone, and you can't have a SI over a certain level for <reason>.

At that point just stick with the original bullshit., it's slightly less insulting.

>>46825115
I mean, its herb, so take it with a grain of salt, and a shot of tequila (don't forget the lime) but that's what was said.

>>46825199
But monitorfags SHOULD be insulted to the max as a matter of principal

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>>46825234
ill fooking bash ur ead in m8 r u avin a giggle?

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>>46825186
>Where'd you get good looking minis?

Best miniatures in gaming.

>>46825352
Aw dont bullshit me anon. I was hoping someone other than kangaroo was selling MWO sculpts.

>>46825186
Some foreign guy (I think russia/serbia/poland) makes small replicas from the MWO files. They look really legit and have the missile pod doors and stuff.

I'm waiting for his king crab which he said may come this summer. He does every mech from MWO eventually so it's on the list.

>>46825600
>>46825540
Here, I made a comparison image for you of the poo to the point of unplayability atlas produced by an actual company..
And the proper proportioned not-poo atlas by some random guy in his basement.

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>>46825894
>dropped image.

>>46825894
Thank you, your image is very helpful

>>46825600
Can I get a source on this stuff? I'd try googling stuff but I cant into Slav runes.

>>46825925
So was your information on how to get into the game in reply to this (>>46823428).


You dumb nigger.

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>>46825924
>>46825894
K, definitely will need to know how to find where this dude is.

Also dont listen to the dumb niggers. You dont technically even need minis to play this game. Cardboard cut outs, handful of change, steal robots from other games.

>>46825974
>wah wah I can't understand jokes

>>46826098
>>46826098
Unfortunately for me I'm very much into aesthetics.
Should I just get the starter box even if I'm going to literally throw all the minis in the trash?

http://www.warhansa.com/

>>46826379
>Try being a smart ass.
>Get called out for being a little bitch.
>WAH I WAS JUZ JOKING GUY ;_;
Kill yourself you mongoloid trash.

>>46826396
>http://www.warhansa.com/

Thank you for that. My wife has been looking for a Lagertha mini to use as a Warlord for her SAGA Vikings for about a year now, and the one on that site is good enough to get.

>>46826534
>Lagertha

Wife has shit taste, find new wife

>>46825894
You mean, the poo Atlas designed by old noob artists on a tight budget, forced through production with an ageing but viable casting company.
Compared to a design realized by skilled industry talent backed with a multi million dollar budget, and produced by professional, if small, casters under no restrictions.
As far as "actual company" goes, the 2nd and superior example is better backed, just not legally, and they could do better still :)

>>46826605
>You mean, the poo Atlas designed by old noob artists on a tight budget, forced through production with an ageing but viable casting company.
Yes. The same company that can't update a shit design in 20 years.

I get defending your favourite company. But those minis are fucking terrible and it's one of the main things keeping people away from BT.

:)

>>46825144

The type of service yard things like the Newgrange or Faslane have allows them to Jump with things in there. The K-F field is already being extended over whatever is contained in the repair bay.

Just for the sake of comparison, the McKenna has over a million tons of dead weight between its K-F drive and cargo mass, at least in terms of combat utility.

You can literally over-match it with a monitor in the 700-900kt range. At the 900 kt range you're edging towards things that could ream a Leviathan II.

>>46825172

The extra mass is why people who want Monitors are arguing for them to exist in the first place.

Having a .25% mass advantage really isn't going to appease them.

>>46826605
>excuses for IWM

If you can't make minis equal to or better than GW's, you shouldn't try. it's like people who can't do fully-blended non-metallic metals trying to paint minis. You just shouldn't do it in the first place.

>>46826396
Completely understand where you are coming from. For all the rules the OP is your one stop shop. From the sound of things the starter box isnt even worth your time. Just get more of the SlavTechWarrior models.

Get Solaris Skunk Werks and the record sheets download and you can print those out.

Get dice, should be easy enough.

Just need hex-grid mapsheets and you are good to go.

Thats pretty much all you need to start playing.

Also much obliged anon, they STW models look pretty fantastic on the whole.

>>46826605
Shimmy, hurry up and make new mechs dammit.

>>46826714
>The extra mass is why people who want Monitors are arguing for them to exist in the first place.

For me at lest, I don't play the Aero side so that stats don't really matter. But they are a thing that has no good reason not to exist somewhere in the universe at some point.

This is also where the maneuver drives being the hard part helps you guys out - if you can build more jump cores than engines, you will want to make every ship jump-capable because it means you're more flexible overall. If jump cores were the hard part, I'd go ahead and crank out a couple of monitors while I wait for some more cores to show up.

>>46826735
>Get Solaris Skunk Werks and the record sheets download and you can print those out.
Thank you, I appreciate this post.

>Also much obliged anon, they STW models look pretty fantastic on the whole.
Anytime. I got the link off another mystery anon in another thread a while ago, so really he's the one to thank.

>>46826786
>But they are a thing that has no good reason not to exist somewhere in the universe at some point.

You know what else has no good reason not to exist in the universe? Loading up DropShips with extra weight, accelerating them as much as possible, and using them as KEW to crack planets.

It's still a game, and even if there's no good in-universe reason to keep there from being things that turn the game to shit, those things still shouldn't be allowed to exist. Monitors, as requested by the fanbase (all the KF drive weight available for payload) are one of those things.

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>>46826851
>You know what else has no good reason not to exist in the universe? Loading up DropShips with extra weight, accelerating them as much as possible, and using them as KEW to crack planets.

Hey, I'm down.

>>46826965

Awesome for you. Enjoy not having a ground game, or Battletech at all, any more. Realism was totally worth it, wasn't it?

>>46826786

If Monitors are that easy to build, you can crank more of those out than the other faction can WarShips.

And then you can equal the performance of those WarShips with half, at most, of the mass from your Monitors.

Which in turn allows you to make your borders impregnable since you can crank out Monitors that WarShips can't beat and then park them over any worlds you want to keep. Once you get 40+ LY from the border you don't need Monitors at all since those worlds are ones the enemy can't effectively hold any way.

Monitors are just too good. FWIW I'm the guy who wrote the WarShip articles, I know that side of the universe. If you don't have to pay for a K-F drive, Monitors are way overpowered. If you do have to pay anything approaching a K-F drive's mass to make them more sane, it makes them pointless. Might as well spend the mass and be able to jump.

>>46826987
Just cause we do it to some planets doesn't mean we do it to all of them

And there are plenty of weapons in BT able to take down a dropship, even a very fast one.

>>46826994
That was my point, man. Manuever drives being the hard part means you can't build any more monitors than anyone else. If jump cores were the hard part then everyone would have a bunch of monitors and a bunch of warships

>>46826994
There's an easy solution, although it would require a reboot. Just reduce the mass of a jump core. If a monitor only gets (say) 15% weight advantage, they're good, but not so good.

>>46826851
>You know what else has no good reason not to exist in the universe? Loading up DropShips with extra weight, accelerating them as much as possible, and using them as KEW to crack planets.
And yet, in the assfuck retardation of the jihad, we got the blakists doing exactly that, which means that there's precedence for the relativistic rocks fuckbird crowd to cite when they argue this shit online

>>46826682
Less so defending, though I do like to state that IWM can do well, when they get the right setup. Spectacular, no.
My main point is to not underestimate the power behind the competition. PGI money designed the mech with BT's top artist, and the casters aren't your typical garage kitters. Legiality is the only thing keeping this from the "company made" label.

>>46827113
I thought they just hooked some dropship engines up to asteroids? Like when they destroyed Samantha. Granted it's pretty much the same thing, but I don't recall them using full DS. Plus they needed that huge ship to aim them right.

That's a little more complicated than just dumping off an old mule loaded with rocks and setting the autopilot.

>>46827186
Nope. They blew up an entire planet, Paradise, I think

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>>46827113
We should have done it more.

Killing Clanners is the only thing that matters.

>>46827203
Paradise was the Regulans dropping off a Mammoth at a pirate point that had been modified into a missile carrier. Those missiles being atomic of course.

>>46827265
dirty dumb regulan scum

>>46827265
Yeah, you're right. The blakists did glass a world with asteroids, though. I think it's in the same book, which is why I got em mixed up

>>46827359
You're probably thinking Lopez. But that was like the third or fourth time they did that. There's "unexplained" asteroid strikes all through the first couple of hotspots books.

>>46827378
>But that was like the third or fourth time they did that. There's "unexplained" asteroid strikes all through the first couple of hotspots books.
Huh, it's even worse than I though

>>46827378
This reminded me of one thing though.

>The Branth is extinct by the DA
It's a crying shame.

Honest question, why does everyone say that "more WarShips would radically change the setting", when the new super-PWS that we get in the dark age do EXACTLY THE SAME THING as a corvette or light destroyer?

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>>46826822
No problem! Definitely give the rules a read through, and I would advise playing a few games on MegaMek to get the general feel for how the game is structured(except it does all the book keeping for you).

Also, the rules are spread out all over the place so if something seems off/cant find the rules for some equipment, its probably in a different book.

>>46827471

IIRC, the new Dropships can't glass huge areas with ortillery the way something like a Black Lion or McKenna can. The big Warships, if used intelligently, make massing troops in anything larger than a lance completely suicidal, and thus the "ground war" comes down to "who has a Warship in orbit?".

The very existence of orbital fire support completely breaks the entire reason of the game, and it shouldn't exist in the first place. At least with sub-capital weapons, you can't just level a whole area in one shot.

>>46825924
Don't kid yourself, the MWO Atlas is stiff as fuck.

>>46827103

15% mass advantage on something like the Vincent (412,000 tons) is enough to add ~300 capital damage worth of NAC/10s to the ship without changing anything else.

>>46827084

Alternatively, Monitors being possible at all means that objectively the best solution is to build Faslane-type transport vessels with retardedly powerful weapons arrays to do the actual fighting.

A mass advantage as little as a 15% lets one Vincent-ish Monitor have the approximate damage of 15 Vincents. Or to put it another way, to fight harder than a Congress.

And this is using the mostly shit canon designs as a yardstick. With Monitors you're not just opening the can of worms that is custom ship creation, you're doing so with additional mass to abuse.

>>46827186

Erinyes didn't do any of the aiming themselves, it just provided an environment to strap engines to rocks in.

>>46827434
It's not extinct, although it is highly endangered. They have a breeding program on several planets.

>>46827471
Because hardly anybody has really fought against that stuff yet on the table, and while PWS first appeared in the earlier 3070's material, we didn't get the first of the really scary bastards until JHS:Terra. Plus them being totally absent from 3130-3145 novels and stuff due to when they came out. They really haven't had time to make their effect clear.

We'll have to see how it goes with ilClan.

Do the homeworlders even have PWS? I don't think they do. That will be a nasty surprise for them. They bring in their old beat to shit Star League warship relics and run headlong into squadrons of the big boys.

>>46827471
Because they slurped on Herb's anti-WarShip boner so long their brain got replaced with...well, you get the picture.

>>46827533
>Erinyes didn't do any of the aiming themselves, it just provided an environment to strap engines to rocks in.

Then what was all that mass wasted for on a large mass driver?

>>46827533
>15% lets one Vincent-ish Monitor have the approximate damage of 15 Vincents

How the hell does that work.

>>46827471

Logically the presence of the Castrum should fuck things up near irrevocably. You basically have to handwave things so it doesn't.

But in any case at least PWSes can't make jumps and can't take as much damage.

>>46827471
Eh, it's not as good as you think.
Between the range disparity and how much more they get crit, the new PWSes do end up performing worse than their raw armor and damage numbers indicate.

>>46827580

The Vincent is really shit.

But then so am I at maths. Should have said 7 or 8, I spazzed. 1 Vincent has 4 NAC/10s, with a 15% advantage it could have 34.

>>46827570

Because reasons, I guess. The attacks on the Taurian capital and elsewhere were with powered asteroids, not the Mass Driver.

I guess the Mass Driver gives it an option, even if that option is pretty sucky since Mass Drivers are so crap.

>>46827551

>They bring in their old beat to shit Star League warship relics and run headlong into squadrons of the big boys.

Unless the Homeworld Clans have been churning out Leviathan Primes their existing fleets are probably gonna get fucked just by the Bears.

>>46827580

A Vincent is 400 k-tons and can throw about 40 capital-scale damage downrange (x4 NAC/10s; I don't care about the 2 Barracudas). It spends *about* 180 k-tons on the K-F Drive.

180 k-tons buys 75 NAC/10s at 2,000 tons each, plus 5,000 rounds of ammo between them, and the heat sinks to run all of them (5000 SHS).

You'd have to have 600 points of throw-weight to be "15 times the firepower" of the Vincent. This provides a total of 790 points of throw-weight.

Put 35 NAC/10s in each of the two broadsides, and you throw 350 points per broadside (compared to 10 for the standard Vincent). A McKenna only throws 360 points of HNPPC damage to each broadside (3 quad turrets each in the R/LBS, and the AR/L).

>warning, math may be slightly off, but the ballpark is right. OT playoff hockey is happening
So yeah...

>>46827746
I think the idea was that the Vincent would become about 250,000 tons, and spend 27,000 tons on the KF core. Then the Vincent monitor would have that 27,000 tons to spend on whatever it wants.

Also, you watch to much hockey.

>>46827580
>>46827663
>But then so am I at maths. Should have said 7 or 8, I spazzed. 1 Vincent has 4 NAC/10s, with a 15% advantage it could have 34.

Oh, 15%. Never mind. it's only 60,000 free tons. So 26 NAC/10s, ammo, and SHSs. Giving it a roughly 130 point broadside, or better than a Congress or SovSoy.

Still, the point generally stands.

>>46827830

61,800 tons.

You can get a NAC/10 with 15 DHS to take care of the heat and 225 shots for every 2,060 tons you spend.

>>46827746

This is an extremely good arguement against the normal kind of monitors that people on the OF keep asking for. I had no idea that was the sort of firepower differential possible by deleting the jump core.

IMO the best way to "fix" the SLDF ships would be to put them on a diet, so to speak. That is, cut their tonnages down until the silly amounts of cargo space disappear; with the same stats at ~30% less tonnage and only 5-10% cargo fractions, they suddenly look a lot less silly

>>46827830
How is it 60,000 free tons? If all the ships are reduced in mass, then the weight is lower.

Or, if you want to keep all the ships the same mass and just reduce the size, it's not "better than a Congress or a Sov Soy", it's just the nuVincent, and the nuCongress or nuSovSoy become much more badass themselves.

Just come back when you're done with hockey, man.

>>46827663
>Because reasons, I guess.
Those reasons being the Erinyes wasn't built as a rock slinger for planet glassing purposes, but for material delivery. It goes out and finds rocks with juicy rare minerals and shiot, then sends them off to processing facilities while it can hang around and find more. The mass driver was originally meant to be used as a tool, not a weapon, but Wobbies gonna WoB.

>>46827922

Nobody but you is talking about reducing overall weight of the ships. The arguement was that if monitors only had to pay 15% less for their "structural bracing" instead of the full 42.5% of their mass on the KF core (or to put it another way, a Vincent spends 42.5%of its mass on a KF drive, or a Vincent MONITOR spends 27.5% of its mass on "structural bracing"), and that would make the difference between warships and monitors not so bad.

NEA (eventually) and the other anon pointed out that this difference would still leave something like 60,000 tons free to buy extra weapons for the 400,000 ton vincent..

>>46827830

After some more playing with the numbers, you can also get 20 NAC/25s with DHS to cover them (assuming you've maxed the free heat coverage from the engine) and 40 rounds each for 500 damage.

Or 17 NAC/30s with DHS and 50 shots each for 510 damage.

Or 18 H-NPPCs with DHS.

Pro-monitor crowd: this means as little as a 15% mass advantage over normal WarShips translates into letting something as small as a Vincent hit harder than a Cameron.

>but it's completely balanced because reasons, and makes more sense from an IC perspective to boot!

Lolnope.

>>46828046
That's what I was talking about in >>46827103 that kicked this all off. Thus, I am right and you are wrong.

>>46827919

And this is just what you get with one of the smallest, shittiest WarShips.

A McKenna with a 15% mass advantage and not changing anything else can staple on like 70 NAC/30s. Probably less in practice since I don't think it would have that many free weapon slots but even after paying for fire control mass you probably have like 60-65 NAC/30s.

IE, around a 150% increase in base firepower. On a ship that can already gut anything up to at least half its mass with a single turn of fire.

Monitors are just such a bad idea, I can't even

>>46828218
Well hey, it's not just monitors. It's the entire Aerotech side. Everything dies really easily.

>>46828163

You do not know what the words "mass advantage" actually mean. Everyone else but you is using the technical (and correct) definition.

>>46828163

>just reduce the mass of a jump core
>not just reduce the mass of the ship overall
>but I'm totally right huehuehuehue

To make Monitors any kind of balanced you'd need to limit them to no more than ~700,000 tons and at that mass you're already getting abominations that could 1v1 a Leviathan II without even trying, assuming we're still applying a 15% mass advantage. With no K-F drive at all, anything over ~500 kt is a complete game breaker.

And then the Monitards would switch to whining about arbitrary maximum tonnages harshing their buzz, when WarShips can be built to between around four to five times the max weight of a Monitor.

>>46826851
>You know what else has no good reason not to exist in the universe? Loading up DropShips with extra weight, accelerating them as much as possible, and using them as KEW to crack planets


kinetic energy increases linearly with projectile mass but exponentially with projectile speed, so limiting your dropship's acceleration by loading it down with extra mass actually hurts its effectiveness as a weapon (unless all the extra mass is fuel and you've got enough run-up time to convert ALL of that fuel to speed before impact)

>>46828238
>Everything dies really easily.
Except for fighters, who are instead way too tough

All this has truly convinced me of is that WarShipfags are cancer.

>hurr durr muh broken monitors must have totally arbitrary reasons to fuck them

Just redo the entire Aero side, does anyone honestly like it or give a shit about it right now?
How about you all go fuck yourselves. Monitors are love, monitors are life.

>>46828238

Canon designs for WarShips are really poorly optimised, until you get to things like the Leviathan II. Which still does certain things that aren't wise (the Capacitor'ed PPC bays always have to be charged due to the space rules, which means they fire every other turn and can blow up, for one) but to beat it you need to go to ungodly lengths of munchkinism.

The first thing I'd do if I were revamping canon designs is max out the armour mass for their SI. Only a few ships (Lev, Conqueror, Mjolnir, Thera, Feng Huang) mount anything approaching the maximum armour for their SI. After that things get a lot more balanced in a canon-only environment, even if customs are still broken as fuck.

>>46828292
>And then the Monitards would switch to whining about arbitrary maximum tonnages harshing their buzz, when WarShips can be built to between around four to five times the max weight of a Monitor.

Well, it would be kinda stupid. But hey, this is why I ignore Aero entirely. I want to like the space side of things, but there's no indication that it's well-designed enough to be worth bothering with, and I could go play any number of other naval games instead.

>>46828341
>How about you all go fuck yourselves. Monitors are love, monitors are life.

>blames warship fans for relaying facts

Don't worry little monitorfag, soon this thread will autosage and how badly you've been schooled will fall to the archive and be forgotten. It'll all be better soon.

Unless you're such a fucking idiot as to spew your special brand of retardation in the next thread, of course.

Strongly advocating for monitors has to be the greatest autism test yet devised by man:

"This would break the game as we know it entirely. I cannot emphasize enough what a bad idea they are."
"Beep boop consequences are irrelevant; all things must be taken to their logical conclusion"

And autism anon looked at the ruins of his giant robot universe and said, "ah, at last: realism".

>>46828390
>implying it's the monitorfag that's retarded

*I* understood what he meant. And while I don't really give a shit about monitors, the aero game is atrociously designed and balanced, and "no monitors because PURE fiat reasons" is just another piece of shit in the sandwich. I can't believe anyone is seriously defending it.

>>46828430
>beep boop I like being a retard why won't anyone join me

Fixed that for you.

But hey, even you admit it.

>you'd need to limit them to no more than ~700,000 tons
>arbitrary maximum tonnages

There is literally no reason other than the game being poorly designed (if you can even say it was designed with a straight face in the first place) and unable to handle them. You just have to wave your wand and say "Dropships can only go up to X because reasons, after that it's a Warship that MUST have a core because reasons, fugg u and ur logic kid muh game"

>>46828372
>but there's no indication that it's well-designed enough to be worth bothering with,

The actual StratOps-level gameplay rules are a really solid ruleset, if impossibly-badly laid-out.

But the design rules for anything larger than a mid-size DropShip are, as you point out, a complete trainwreck. And of course there's the whole issue of "designed ships" are impossibly worse than "custom ships" unless the customizer is deliberately being heavily sub-optimal.

It's extraordinarily frustrating. I disagree, though, that there's any other place to get the combination of playability and detail that AeroTech has for capital ships currently. B5Wars is the next closest competitor, but it's long-dead. SFB has the detail, but not the playability. Firestorm Armada or Full Thrust or BFG are wonderfully playable, but are so heavily abstracted I get bored by them too fast.

And, as always, there's zero hope for improvement. The Line Dev would have to retcon away all the published designs to fix anything meaningful, and the current Aerospace cabal has no intention of doing anything they can within the rules. I went over to the OF to look up the WarShip numbers, and did a CTRL-F for "it is what it is" in a couple of the threads asking why things were the way they were. That phrase showed up in about 1 of every 3 posts from a Cabal member. "It is what it is" is simply not an acceptable attitude from a group devoted to *improvement* of ANYTHING.

>>46828485
beep boop

>>46828485
Spacebattles is thattaway, autism-san

>>46828539
>muh Attack Vector
>muh Traveller
>muh Saganami Island (kind of a subset of AVT but w/e)
>muh historicals

But yeah, it bugs me when the only core argument against monitors is "the game is broken and this will break it more" and then nothing is ever done to fix it. If I were Line Dev, and assuming we expected to make some money off it, I would get you me and someone else competent together and replace the system, then release a series of naval TROs featuring old art, revised fluff, and new stats.

Of course, since virtually nobody plays Aerotech...I really doubt it's worth spending time and money on.

>>46828659
>implying being objectively correct is autism

If you have to suspend disbelief to make your game work, it's a shitty game.

>>46828714
>If you have to suspend disbelief to make your game work, it's a shitty game.

Quoted for fucking truth.

And yes, I'm aware of the irony of saying this in a giant robot game thread

>>46828709
>muh Attack Vector
>muh Traveller
>muh Saganami Island (kind of a subset of AVT but w/e)

AND PLAYABILITY.

I *do* actually own AV:T and SITS 2.0. I like both games. Neither are *nearly* as playable as StratOps AeroTech.

Historicals are another thing entirely. I do love me some GQ3: Fleet Action Imminent (WW1 version of GQ).

>Of course, since virtually nobody plays Aerotech

In fairness, this is also true of basically every capital ship-centric sci-fi game except for Star Wars Armada and maybe - MAYBE - Firestorm. It astounds me that sci-fi naval games simply cannot build a large player base.

>>46828714
>>46828742

Gentlemen, I present to you the pure distilled essence of autism.

Remember it well, and never become a monster like this.

>>46828767
>It astounds me that sci-fi naval games simply cannot build a large player base.

Well, all the ones that do you eliminated. But yes, there should be more people that play them.

Also Star Wars and Firestorm are for scrubs

Solution: Pocket Warships and their gubbins have always existed, and nothing over 100k tons can be KF boomed properly. Success, monitors exist, and are not completely retarded. PRAISE ME.

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>>46828818
>maybe if I insult them enough they'll go away la la la la laaaa

>>46828709

The AT side isn't that bad, with the notable exception of fighters. Fighters area bastard to hit, some are insanely tough, and a lot of squadrons can kick out 20-30 capital damage for 360-600 tons, plus nukes. You really need to neuter them to make so much as DropShips viable combatants, never mind anything bigger.

After that it's mostly a fluff v crunch issue since a lot of WarShips are written as being very powerful and very tough in the SBs and novels, but on the tabletop have fuck all firepower and even less stamina. That at least can be rectified by going back to the drawing board and re-doing WarShips prior to the ones introduced in or after the Field Manual series to being actually decent.

The argument against Monitors is, however, *always* going to be there. If they don't have to spend mass on a K-F drive, or don't have to spend as much mass on a tonnage sink that provides no combat utility, there's no point in having WarShips because Monitors are objectively better in every way that matters.

Conversely, if they don't get a mass advantage for not having a K-F core then there's no point to having Monitors since WarShips have all the combat utility with the added tactical and strategic utility of being able to Jump.

Besides, second and third-gen PWSes like the Interdictor (SCC), Taihou, Arondight and especially Castrum already do most of what Monitor proponents claim they want any way.

>>46828842
Is it really an insult if it's true?

>>46828842
SB GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>46828852

Don't try to bring logic or reason into this. Just accept that Monitards are superior examples of humanity and are always correct. About everything.

>>46828714
The proposed solution of "just allow the most broken thing ever" should be so obvious in its flaws that no one would ever think of posting it, and yet here we are, debating with Autismbot 3000. The idea that suspension of disbelief is more valuable than gameplay and shutting the setting down completely is absurd.

>>46828852
>>46828862
>>46828871
Really no providing any evidence to the contrary here guys.

Also I see why the OF banned this shit.

WarShipfag tears.

>>46828958
>The idea that suspension of disbelief is more valuable than gameplay and shutting the setting down completely is absurd

Maybe we should have a better setting and gameplay.

Seriously, your argument is like saying "Man, America has too many carriers, it shuts down all international war, we'd better tell them to stop building them. Besides, I believe battleships are better!"