why does /tg/ hate knights?

>>46510396
Because longbows can't pierce steel plate.

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>>46510396

Knights are good

knights are cool

they enable fags, though

>>46510396
Knights are the shit

Imperial Knights are like mini Titans

>>46510396
Love their fluff.

They can be fun in a game, too, but they have a bad rap because powergamers sometimes use them really stupidly, but effectively. For instance, Knights with Tyranid allies.

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Knights are pretty cool, but I've always been a fan of knights who can jump really high.

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>>46510396
Mostly because their either shit at 40k can't deal with them or because they haven't played 40k and just regurgitate what they've seen other people say about it.

>>46510544
>Knights with Tyranid allies.

Genestealer cult

>>46510710
I hate that I want to see a Knight world taken over by genestealers, they could be the the House of Tyrants

Rolled 5 (1d20)

rad

>>46510396
When I first learned about them, I thought they were really dumb and boring. Not only have fuedal knights in space already been done, so have giant robots. It just seemed like a really transparent strategy by GW to push even bigger models with even bigger profit margins on everyone, and the fact that their rules made them boring to play against just sealed the deal on them. Knights suck as anything more than a one-off ally unit you throw into your Imperium army.

I browse /tg/ and I dont hate Knights. Im a casual player, and if I play a drop in game with someone, idc if they bring 1 Knight. 2+ poses a problem though, so I only play vs that if its arranged ahead of time. I own 3 myself, but never use them unless its set up beforehand.

>>46510396
Because they're the turd frosting on the shit cake that is mass battle at 28mm scale. 40k has become a nonsensical game, where two lines of cluttered garbage smash straight into each other, while trying to use the most broken rules to erase the other pile of trash.

If you want to play a game with giant scales, use something at 5-10mm so there's actual ranges and maneuvering.

>>46510487
This tho

>>46510710
>>46510795
The Throne Mechanicum would almost certainly reject a Genestealer pilot. They can detect impurities, and they've been said to kill for less.

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>>46510396
I play Necrons, if they want to waste their points then that's their choice.

I don't like any imperial walkers. They always look way too ponderous to make any sense as walkers.

I can imagine Eldar stuff moving like anime walkers, same with Tau stuff. Orks I imagine moves fucking stupid, but it's Orks, whatever.

Imperial stuff just makes me wish that it's just a baneblade variant.

>>46511344
I kind of agree. I just can't see knights moving anywhere near fast enough to make use of their melee weapons.

Like, if they were a little more humanoid and advanced looking I could see it. Like Pacific Rim. But that would be an abortion design wise in contrast with all the other Imperial stuff.

>>46510423
lol no

>what is Agincourt

>>46511646
>the first victim

>with the worst example

I think Knights are pretty cool, actually. It's a good concept at least and a technically unexplored niche in 40K until lately.

Gamers in general just hate change.

40k used to be a skirmish level game where 1500 was a big match. Titans belong in Apocalypse.

>>46511927
You can fit a Knight formation into 1200 points.

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Because stupidly big shit the size of your head doesn't belong outside of apocolpyse

>>46511646
English fanwankery

Longbows always had low penetration in their first codex

>>46511190
>get wrong ceramite polish and refinisher for throne
>ded

>>46512074

I'm aware. You can do terrible things with formations as well.

>>46511700
>>46511646
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf

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>>46512074
Thats the reason people don't like them familam

40k is supposed to, or at least used to be about key fire fights and operations of a strike team of guys fighting off a small contingent of the enemy, now it's about BIG SHIT GUNDAMN SIMULATOR 2016 which a lot of people despise. That shit belongs in epic and Apocalypse only.

>>46512193
>That one Marine in the warband who just can't let go of the past
It's so sad when their minds start to go.

>>46510448
that is clearly a man at arms, but ill let it slide because of that sexy salet.

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>>46512256
I'm not sure if you're insulting me for disliking this particular change in direction to the game, commenting about mister still blue and white or both

>>46511190

>chaos knights

why not the hivemind?

>>46512530
Chaos can corrupt machinery, Tyranids cannot.

>>46512599

They corrupt an entire imperial warlord titan in the second Titan graphic novel.

>>46512716
Oh, did they? I didn't know. How'd they do it?

>>46513825
Rape

>>46510943

Feudal Britfaggotry designed to sell models when the only giant robot game worth a damn is Battletech.

>>46511927

Exactly. It was a squad size game.

>>46514186
I figured there was a bug in the system.

>>46513825

Tyranids have the hive mind. It forced its way into the mind/machine interface the princieps uses to command the titan and assumed direct control. Then they started growing weird bio organisms on/in it. It was so fucked up the eldar send titans to fight it.

>>46512193
Skirmish games are a dime a dozen these days. 40k is more fun when you have more shit on the field.

>>46512091
found the veteran player not even able to handle a knight. What does it feel like to suck since so many years ?

>>46514430
FUCKETH YOU BROTHER CARLOSOTH

>>46510943
This

>>46511646
Agincourt
>muddy as fuck, field
>dumbass french nobility
>hungry, angry, desperate englishmen (the kind you don't want to mess with)
>English army entrenched with stakes


Crecy
>dumb ass fuck french nobility
>good Genoese crossbow militia
>left their Pavise cause impatient french commander is a fucktard
>Crossbowmen got peppered by arrows
>routed cause the whole thing was stupid
>french knights charged
>suddenly a steep hill, barricades, arrows and cannons
>frech got kek'd King Philip ran

Cuz

>>46516646
I wanna see a Knight House done up like a frat house. The Knights are all wearing shutter shades and have Greek letters on their shields. Their promethium barrels could be done up like kegs of Keystone Light. Their bases would just be littered with tiny plastic Dixie cups. Maybe you could make them itty bitty baseball caps to wear backwards.

>>46510396
/tg/ loves knights thematically and in lore but hates them on the table top because they're OP for the points cost.

>>46516828
Bullshit, they're perfectly balanced for the points cost. They are, however, a very specialized army that force all-comer lists to play to the objectives or lose. I play Dark Eldar for gods sake and I've never had trouble with them.

>>46510396
Because Battletech does this exact shit better?

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Don`t mind me, I`m just lurking...

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>>46517621
>knight house following chapter insigna

>>46511646
The battle most famous for how many knights were CAPTURED? You don't generally capture the dead.

>>46516442
>dumbass french nobility
What the English love to forget while wanking over Henry V was that the king of France at the time was literally, LITERALLY insane. They didn't call him Charles the Mad because of his impressive nuclear arsenal.

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>Imperal Knights

They do not fit in 28mm scale at all and are the ultimate realisation of GW putting raw profits before the health of the game. Right now normal 40k has become Apocalypse for no reason other than GW wants to make money.

Now its difficult to force 40k back to where it should be because of all the people who paid hundreds for their huge models and whine like children at even the suggestion 40k was better without models like that.

Kill Team and Zone Mortalis are the best ways to play 40k until the hypothetical future when GW stops being insane and makes knights/superheavies Apocalypse only.

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>>46510642
Whoever that is on the top left, I wanna fuck her.

>>46517708
Well the French nobility was retarded in general during and before those battles.

They had a great commander in Agincourt Charles d'Albret, the knights simply charged without orders. Also they turned away 60,000 peasant volunteers, cause they did not like the idea of France being saved by an army of smelly villagers.

>>46510396
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6m2kGtbDOc

>>46511927
Apocalypse wasn't making GW enough money that's why they brought super heavies into the basic rules.

>>46516852
The problem with them is a game against an Imperial Knights force goes one of two ways.

a) opponent has lots of anti-tank and you get stomped
b) opponent doesn't have lots of anti-tank and they get stomped

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>>46520260
>5000 longbowmen firing at 60,000 tightly packed unarmoured peasants who have to charge uphill through mud

Good lord, even if they eventually swamped them the casualties would be horrific.

>>46520316
Which was a short sighted mistake.

They are driving huge numbers of people away because their money grab has ruined normal 40k.

>>46510549
whoever made this need to learn how to proportion

nothing wrong with stylisation but this is horrible

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>>46516162
It is literally impossible to be bad at 40k unless you have an actual mental dissabilty.

Knights are not particularly overpowered, just boring, silly, and inappropriate for the scale of 40k.

40k is a miniature game not a rule set for action figure skirmish

>>46520316
I'd rather take 1 super-heavy in high points standard 40k than 30 lined up against another 30 and the game being nothing but rolling how many super-heavies get removed per turn.

6e FOC with LoW limited to 2000+ points would have been my ideal game.

>>46520445
GW thinks the FoC hurts sales, that is why they brought in unbound and all these formations.

>>46520342
Well the English could have been easily outflanked in that battle, but the oh so chivalrous flowers of the french nobility dismissed the idea, because it was dishonorable.

If the French brought the peasants and used them as a fixing force, then flanked with their cavalry, Agincourt would have turned out differently.

>>46517769
I'd agree if it wasn't usually impossible to actually get an apoc game going because most people don't have the points.
I have a handful of big centerpiece fuckoff units for my 40k army (LR Terminus, Caestus Assault Ram, 2 Xiphon Interceptors, Cerastus Knight-Lancer), but they generally collect dust, on top of apoc usually turning into what >>46520445 said, a gunline of SD superheavies rolling to see what gets taken off the board.

are there any depictions of knights walking? like actually in motion? i find it hard to visualise their gait. i had the same problem with dreds before DoW came out

>>46520260
Don't forget they force-marched their entire army for like 3 days to the location of said battle, refused to allow them rest, forced the crossbow mercenaries (England had retarded amounts of trees, everyone else had already upgraded to crossbows but England just still had SO MANY bows to go around) to GO IN FRONT OF EVERYONE, with soaked weapons and ordered to go without even their pavises, and then ordered a cavalry charge -through them- straight into the fucking mud.

Many d20 system players (due literally to the developer comments especially in pathfinder) hold Crecy and Againcourt as shining examples of the longbow's superiority...

But in fact, it's an incredible lesson in how putting incestuous douchebags at the head of your army when they can't understand the concept of weather or of rest can turn an overwhelming victory into an utterly one-sided loss.

The only dumber battle I've ever read was the devastating rout of an unopposed army; the legendary Battle of Karansebes

>>46520471
Its not worth destroying normal 40k just so big models that should never even have been produced can be used.

>>46520471
I haven't gotten one apoc game in since I finished my phantom titan. I would be sad, but its pretty sexy on its own.

>>46520342
The archers got fucktons of kills there already, but very little of it (and barring the occasional ultra-lucky hit, none of it against armored knights) was due to their arrows.

They stabbed the fuck out of all those muddied paragons of fucking-exhaustion when they were on the ground gasping for air or stumbling towards them not-all-that-menacingly.

>>46520466
I know. It's just that going from 6e + Escalation to shitting the bed with 7e, was so fast it boggles the mind. I don't really want another 3-4e simplification but I feel like this trend can't continue and GW, in their retardation, will go overboard every time, regardless of the direction.

>>46520540
If you limit LoW to high point games, you're not destroying anything. Apocalypse was as retarded as the game is now.

>>46520548
Don't forget the sledgehammers and stake mallets.

They suddenly become a viable weapon if facing someone who had to drag himself up a muddy hill through an arrow storm.

>>46520549
At least in 3e we did not have superheavies being a normal unit or flyers. And it cannot continue, they are haemorrhaging players at this point.

GW is so stupid they view lower cost entry level games as a competitor to the 'main' product instead of an entry point. If there was a three tier system of kill team - 40k - apocalypse with knights, baneblades and the like 0-1 total in normal 40k they would be doing better.

Instead they are just going to ride this train wreck all the way to the end.

>>46520510
>the legendary Battle of Karansebes
That was just depressingly pathetic. The Austrian Empire really sucked balls when it comes to war.

Even a Vienna 1683, the commander of the Austrians almost ruined the plan of the coalition. He ordered an attack against the Turks unannounced, cause he didn't want to be upstaged by Sobiesky.

>>46520572
Yes but neither GW or the people who bought knights will ever agree to that.

Right now 40k is going through the same issues WHFB towards its death did with huge entry costs, a proliferation of bigger kits just so GW can make more money and the 'standard' game size steadily creeping upwards which puts off new people.

>>46520646
Why do they keep raising the fucking prices?

If they lowered the price tags, there would be a lot of people who are gonna models and probably won't even play the game.

>>46520646
GW will agree to it the moment they start losing money bad. We just need to hope they learn from AoS what not to do. It's not like simplifying rules and army lists hasn't been done before in 40k.

>people who bought knights

You think GW asked Squat, Tomb King, Bretonnian, etc. players what they want?

>>46520710
>Why do they keep raising the fucking prices?

Because people keep buying. Production costs, etc. only give you the bottom price you have to get for any certain product to make back your money. From there on the roof is only set by what people are willing to pay for it.

>>46520767
But they are not, GW sales have been slowly declining for years while sales in the industry as a whole increase.

>>46520796
What about their profits.

>>46520466
To be fair, the FoC is a shitty mechanic to force people to take certain units just because.

>>46520816
Even if they were rising that is a dead end strategy.

Every time you raise prices more veterans give up and more potential players are turned away. You eventually lose the critical mass of players that makes 40k the 'default' game and that hurts sales even more, its already happened in many places.

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Is that Freeblade game ever coming to Android? Is it any good?

>>46510396
I don't. I just do the classic eldar "shoot the fat fuck from a distance and run away"

>>46520849
I'd love to hear the alternative.

>>46520863
>Even if they were rising that is a dead end strategy.

As long as it keeps making them money, and with lower production cost (10 units for 100 dollars > 20 units for 100 dollars), they'll keep doing it. Once it goes over the pain threshold, then we'll see changes. Not before.

>>46520849
Are you kidding? The point is so armies actually resemble armies and so you cannot just take tanks or just super elite infantry.

How could that possibly be a bad thing? Claiming its 'just because' is as idiotic as bitching about a 'core tax' in WHFB.

>>46520926
They are not doing well out of it though, they are cutting expenses to the bone and freezing staff pay but their profits are still stagnant.

>>46520540
The only thing that applies to, really, is knights, and that is because you can take multiples of them.
How many titans/baneblades/SH units usually show up in regular 40k games? How often do you see more than 1 under 2k?
You don't. You are using odd logic to justify your argument that boils down to "it exists, therefore people must use them, and if people use them, they MUST be using them in poor gamesmanship, so it's a problem".
I'd argue that outside of pure knight forces and titans, superheavies reinforce the problem tanks have irl, in that infantry are a true threat, and if you can't protect them, they will take down your big bad tank. My LRT is scary as fuck to enemy armor, but more than once it's fallen to an outflanking force. Landspeeders and deepstriking flyers are my goddamn bane, and account for the vast majority of my destroyed raiders.

>>46520968
>The point is so armies actually resemble armies and so you cannot just take tanks or just super elite infantry.
Even in earlier times, there were ways expressly around that.
The fact is, 40k armies are essentially strike forces on route to a dedicated mission/target, not microcosms of a broad military effort. That is the skirmish based nature of the game, and if you think otherwise, you clearly haven't paid attention to the game over the years, where back in RT/2e, you could have an high point army consisting of less than 10 models, and it would be scary as FUCK.

>>46521029
>odd logic

No, I am just saying there is no reason whatsoever they should be allowed as anything other than 0-1 in normal 40k and not in any game under 2000 points.

>>46521081
>more options >less options
>claims there should be less options because he doesn't like them
Look, anon, seriously, if someone is bringing an all knight army, or a superheavy in a 1k game, they can, but watch anyone they ask to play against politely decline.
In the real world, there are consequences for poor gamesmanship that you are ignoring in your argument, because people making a choice for themselves strips you of your ability to decide what is good for them.
That said, this is a loggerhead argument, and there is nothing particularly to gain from it, so I bow out, and bid you good day and good gaming.

>>46521076
>essentially strike forces on route to a dedicated mission/target

Not always the case by any means. Its still objectively false to claim the FoC is just there for 'lol no reason'.

>>46521246
It existed to force players to buy a variety of kits rather than just the ones they wanted.

>>46521232
>because people making a choice for themselves strips you of your ability to decide what is good for them.

Why pretend to be polite if you are going so say something so spiteful? That is not even slightly what this is about and its pretty sad you would pretend it is.

>>46521273
No, that is what Formations are for.

The FoC is there to ensure at least a minimum level of balance on forces instead of people just taking tons of one type of unit. More thematically it makes things look more like a real force.

And its a pretty god damn strange player who has to be 'forced' to put Boyz in his ork force or Space Marines in his marine army.

>>46512193
fukken this

its not about whether i want large or small scale battles either, its just that the 28mm scale doesnt support battles of this size, thats exactly what epic was designed for

40k is boring as shit when all you do is remove stuff on a 2+ all the time, the ratio of deploying to removing stuff is getting increasingly unfavourable

these huge fucking models dont belong in wargaming at all

>>46521273
And as we see, letting people have what they want has turned up great for the game.

Cry some more about your core tax and "I don't want my elite force of space marines to actually take tactical marines, the core of an SM chapter".

What if we just make knights regular walkers? And riptides and wraithlords regular infantry while wraithknights and cocksurges become monstrous creatures?

>>46521285
Loggerhead, anon.
There is literally no point to this argument.
We disagree, you are firmly entrenched as are I.
The difference is that I do see the merit in your argument, but believe that the individual choice of the players involved and the local community they play in can handle dbags who try to abuse the rules.
You... well, you haven't really given voice to what particularly gives you umbrage outside of asshole players being assholes and superheavies existing at all in non-apoc play.
>>46521321
>>46521339
2e would blow your minds, where you could walk in with a force of all meganobz with the warboss and be fearsomely competitive, and t wit, how often do you see superheavies in play?
The units you are talking about are not even superheavies. Riptides aren't superheavies. Gravweapons aren't superheavies. 1-2 knights can carry ranged D weaponry out of 8, and none are the standard knights.
>>46521361
Tournaments are not the standard of the game, anon, and it's disingenuous to act as though they were. What really matters is what communities are playing with.

>>46521487
>gargantuans aren't super heavies

lol

hey wanna play against my tyranids? no super heavies though
>brings biotitan cos its not a super heavy

>>46510549
Wouldn't Purple-goon tear his pants off every time he jumps?
His boots are connected to his pants.

>>46521487
>Tournaments are not the standard of the game, anon, and it's disingenuous to act as though they were.

I did not say a thing about any tournaments.

>What really matters is what communities are playing with.

How about you make good rules so I don't have to argue with people what's cool and what's not, Gav?

>>46516776
>picturing frat knights
brb, reporting to my inquisitor to be mind-cleansed.

>>46520481
The game free blade shows it in motion if you wanna get an ipod game

>>46520510
>(England had retarded amounts of trees, everyone else had already upgraded to crossbows but England just still had SO MANY bows to go around)

It's more that England was poor and couldn't afford the prices the crossbow factories charged.

>>46520892
How about let people take whatever models they want? :^)

Hard mode: Remove points costs altogether as well

>>46520892
Spitballing here, the idea should that you can take whatever you want within an army (or a faction if they could figure that mess out), with points being both the limiter that keeps a competitive game balanced as well as the incentive to take or not take models. You don't need slots or required units taken. Those things should be a priority themselves due to their cost and abilities.

You should want to take squads of tac marines because they're cheap and effective, not because the rules say you have to take 2 troops and they're better than scouts. The rules should be tweaked to incentivize balanced forces based on the variety of objectives you face, not force players to take this or that unit because the rules say so.

The problem is GW can't write balanced rules to save their lives, and power creep helps them sell models.

We don't. We hate dicks who use multiple of them or run War Convo.

One Knight? Fair enough. Two Knights? Pushing it. Three or more? Fuck off, that's boring.

I'd like to see something similar to the Lords of War restrictions in the HH books. No LoW under 2k and they can't be more than 25% of the total army points. It might be a bit restrictive but I don't like how Super Heavies and GMCs can't be stunned and can split their fire across multiple targets. They get far too much from that ability. Shame about characters being LoW, Calgar is not in the same league as a Knight.

>>46523271
Three knights is only for apoc

>>46510487
Exactly this

>>46523231
Have you like looked at any other wargame? There's loads of them that have minimum requirements you must meet or units you must take before gaining access to other units. You make it sound like GW is the only one doing this or that their motivations are disingenuous.

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>>46510396
>kinght time ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLYmEJEElgg&list=PLy55WVLwDMPlyr7qFDehv8aCI9wnuDvZd&index=21&nohtml5=False

>>46523743
At no time did I imply only GW does that.

>>46510710
I've had the idea for a Tyranid army with a knight in it, but instead of a cult it would be some tech heresy where the titan's builders got into some biology.

>>46520865
No

>>46520382
kill yourself