If Angels can fall, can demons rise?

>>46466994
probably not

Of course, but it is just as rare.

if you want

but nothing about angels falling implies the reverse. if you fall into a hole there's no guarantee you can climb back out.

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Do demons need to rise when they answer a question, or can they simply answer from their seats?

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>>46466994
How many legs does a dragon have?

>>46466994
Something can be made perfect, but nothing can be made to be perfect after being broken.

>>46467063

If it was perfect it couldn't break.

>>46466994
Yes, but it is much easier to fall than to get up afterwards. I think we all know this. A fallen angel, rare as they are, would be more heard of than a demon rising.

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>>46467063

>>46466994
Just like gravity only goes one way, fighting your way up is an entirely different matter than slipping and falling on your ass down Hell. So if you have a game in mind and not only some pointless metaphysics question, i'd say at least it needs to not be symetrical, but have a different flavor and mechanisms.

>>46467018
>rare
>one third of the host of heaven

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>>46466994
Can the Undead serve all that is Holy and Light?

>>46466994
what would a redeemed demon look like /tg/?

>>46466994
If popular literature and other media is any indication, being a nice demon results in you getting stabbed in the face by the bad guys, in the back by the good guys, and your soul either blasted into oblivion, or sunk into eternal torment.

so I'm gonna go with no.

If I had a chance to break that rule though as a GM I'd do it, it might be interesting for a change.

>>46466994
Sure, why not?

>>46466994
demons are but angels cast down by god, thus a demon would need to be forgiven by god to become an angel, and god only forgives humans.
Everyone else can go fuck themselves.

>>46467333
>Rare
>Not one mention in the entire history of forever about a demon (that 1/3rd of the heavenly fallen host) rising.

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>>46467442
Not with an outfit like that.

>>46466994

Yes, they can. Just as LG Celestials can fall to Evil, CE Demons can rise to Good.

What's more, since the Abyss has infinite layers, and therefore infinite demons, there are an infinite number of Good-aligned demons.

>>46467565
Or you know, there is like 1.
Just like there are an infinite amount of natural numbers, but there is only one number 1.

>>46467565
>the Abyss has infinite layers, and therefore infinite demons

you're assuming that every layer has demons

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>>46467445
well, fallen angels typically appear as basic color shifts of angels (replace white with black or grey), so do the same to demons (replace demonic colors with angelic colors). pic related

>>46467512

Yeah but that's because Yhwhfags are all about the fear.

>d-d-don't do bad stuff
>y-y-you can't ever recover from that
>th-th-the Lord of Infinite Mercy never forgives

And to be fair the various Holy books are all over 1000 years old. It's not like we've had an update mini-digest with shit like "Great news! Since you last heard from us, 17 spawn of Hell have been welcomed back into the arms of the righteous!". So we're working from old, potentially outdated sources.

>>46467063
>breaking is always permanent
That's a retarded concept that's seldom true for animate or inanimate objects.

Living things are malleable and adaptive. People have had a semi-crucial section of brain obliterated and the brain moved those duties to different sections over time so that it would still function.

And as the stupid analogy is probably about pottery or something. Fixing broken objects to perfection simply depends on the material.
Aluminum can be recycled infinite times with no loss of quality. Most of the coke cans you're using have already been drunk out of previously.

Then there are interesting fundamental questions back on the biological side.
A perfect DNA clone of hitler could easily have been nurtured differently (accepted to art school instead of joining the army) and become a pinnacle of human behavior that everyone circlejerks today, like pablo picasso.

When good or evil is not truly hard-wired into a DNA set... The brain is fluid and behavior itself is malleable (classical conditioning, operant conditioning, behavior therapy)
It becomes rather impossible to say there's Any type of damage that is irreversible short of complete information destruction (such as tossing it into a black hole - though it has been theorized that information may survive even that)

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
In even 1000 years it wouldn't be surprising if we simply had a machine that a terrible criminal could walk into and minutes or hours later come out with a perfectly normal psyche, values and habits. And as memories are also stored on physical medium, they could be removed and given a healthy set of memories to go with it.

>>46467613

If there is any possibility of a layer having demons, and infinite such layers, then there will be infinite demons.

Actually what you should be pulling me up on are these things:
>the Abyss is only rumoured to have infinite layers
>even with infinite Good-aligned demons, the frequency is still the same so the ratio of Good to Evil demons is still the same.

>>46466994
I'd allow it with certain caveats such as the now redeemed demon still pings as evil to anything that senses such things, weaknesses such as holy objects or iron might now be reduced but will still be present with infernal objects now able to cause more harm to the redeemed (demonic goods probably love to hurt the righteous and what else would one call a redeemed demon), and the demon would still carry some physical sign of their former state...

>>46466994

In Buddhism demons can learn the Dharma and be redeemed. I believe in the Ramayana or some such story there was a female demon who would eat children but grew distraught when her own children were taken from her and she vowed never to eat children again after being made to realize the pain and suffering she had caused to other mothers.

>>46466994
If pussy stocks are plummiting, why do dicks keep rising?

>>46467652
>Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

>BEHOLD PRIMITIVES! MY MAGICAL LIGHTBOX THAT RUNS NOT ON FLAME!

>"What noise is he making? Is he sound of min- WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT HEATLESS TORCH!? WITCH! WIIITCH!"

And this is why timetravel was invented and was subsequently destroyed by tribals.

>>46467716
>The Dark Cuck rises

>>46467652
What you are talking about is a patch job.

Brains can rewire to function but rarely if ever return to the same efficiency as they had before.

We are also talking about spiritual beings, not mundane organisms or materials. They exist in black/white dichotomies. You either are or you are not.

Once you fall as an angel that corruption remains forever. Forgiveness and redemption never existed for them. Once you turn it's done. A fallen angel may somehow turn away from the dark but they could never return to glory. They would exist simply as exiles.

Maybe take human wives and spawn giants.

>>46467817
>They exist in black/white dichotomies.
So what you're saying is, once you go black, you don't go back?

>>46467679
If there are infinite demons doesn't that mean there is a massive imbalance in the universe on the side of evil? Like, how does the cosmic good/evil scale weigh infinite demons versus non-infinite Angels?

>>46467837
Absolutely.

And impregnate women and leave their unruly kids to fuck things up for others.

>>46466994
Depends on the religion

>>46467850

What cosmic Good/Evil scale?

And why would it be determined by how many demons and angels there are?

>>46467850
Because demons ain't shit but imps and shit.

So go back to Hell and burn and shit.

And get banished when you're done.

Then hop onto my wings and make a hot nun.

On a scale of 1-10 how much did this make you cringe? I'm aiming for at least an 8.

>>46467817
>We are also talking about spiritual beings, not mundane organisms or materials. They exist in black/white dichotomies. You either are or you are not.
Depends on the setting. Entirely speculative opinion based definition of words that have varied meanings that mean whatever we feel like they do.

>Once you fall as an angel that corruption remains forever. Forgiveness and redemption never existed for them
Matter of pure opinion. Depends on the setting.

A setting could have spiritual beings that are representative of the collective psyche of their subjects.
If you're a demon of the sentient coniferous mole-rat's sexual desire and every single one of them is neutered/spayed and the section of brain responsible is lobotimized so the thought never again comes up, do you pop out of spiritual existence?
Do you coalesce into some endless ocean of spirit goo of unrealized spiritual aspects where the spiritual by-blow of an infinite number of extinct species resides?
Simply defining angels and demons in such a simple and boring manner as "they're permanent and corruption is permanent" doesn't give any useful or interesting area for speculation or use.
And as it isn't a real established fact, it's not necessary to stick with it for veracity's sake either.

>>46466994
According to the Catechism demons cannot be redeemed anymore than dead people can because being incorporeal spirits exist outside of time and there is no post-fall period or something

so no, according to Catholics anyway

>>46467917
It's like cartoon show rap level. A 6. Throw in sonic and something about being a risen demon angel and it'll be a solid 9.6.

>>46467035
Underrated

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>>46467917
This is my most relevant image for this. If you're going where I think you're going.

This thread got interesting fast.
I'm always glad to make fa/tg/uys debate

>>46467956
> demons cannot be redeemed anymore than dead people can because being incorporeal spirits exist outside of time
Even for the catholic faith that's not definite.

>There is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily.

It'd be immensely rare and exception - far more so than Angels falling, but yes.

>>46466994
No, outsiders obey conservation of altitude.
The outer planes are in a continuous descent.

Why you you think people "fly" in the Astral Plane?
It's actually just free fall.

>>46467645
>update mini-digest with shit like "Great news! Since you last heard from us, 17 spawn of Hell have been welcomed back into the arms of the righteous!"
Abrahamic religions would probably be more interesting if this sort of thing did exist.

>>46467494
IIRC, there were also demons created/birthed by Lilith after she was cast out of Eden.

Or if we refer to >>46467062
Like Pathfinder, Demons are crafted from the Abyss, which was in turn created by the Horsemen of the Apocalypse

>>46468550
yearly updates of the Bible to know which demons have turned haha

>>46468582
"Man, did you see the roster changes in Testament 2017? Can't believe God signed all those throw-aways!"

>>46466994
Yes, but given you can barely tell the difference between them, who'd notice?

And what about angels that saunter vaguely downwards?

Fall-from-Graceis best Waifu.

>>46466994
Well if you go full biblical falling is more like if a car broke down.

Angels and "demons" are just autonamatons that god just moves around with his all powerful willpower.

That or god went coocoo and started a revolution against himself when making humanity.

>>46466994
Can dwarves into space?

>>46468613
>biblical fantasy football pools
>based on souls tempted/saved

>>46468836
>"Can you believe fucking Beelzebub made a heel turn this year?"

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This is literally the plot of this book. A demon decides to turn on the other demons in hell and fight for God, even if God won't have him back.

>>46468933
>"Still no way he can get past Malphas, even if he has been slipping for the past few years, he's still way ahead of pretty much everyone else."

setting I came up with, the bible is a lie the devil made to make him look like the udnerdog rebel, he created humanity as a race of self replicating slaves, the one we know as God hijacked the process to grant us free will, but due to the truth of our make up, all human souls are naturally demonic, so yes, demons can rise, they do with every act of human kindness

>>46466994
I had a player do that to a demon he fought once

>>46468068
>2 Macc. 12:43–45
boy, what kind of Deuterocanon is this? the kind that made indulgences a thing, that's what. apocrypha loving papist.

>>46467679

Well, no. Just because there's an infinite number of something doesn't mean that infinity will contain all possible outcomes. For example, the set of all even natural numbers is infinite, but it will never contain an odd number.

>>46466994
No, a demon is an angel with free will. To remove free will from a demon is to kill them and make an automaton of their corpse.

>>46469501
>"Mephistopheles still dead last in the corrupting. His actual collection rate is off the charts, though. Odd."

>>46467645
>And to be fair the various Holy books are all over 1000 years old. It's not like we've had an update mini-digest

That's simply incorrect, the only difference is all the new editions passed down from [ALMIGHTY BEING] to [MESSENGER] get written off as crazy people suffering from delusions.

Isn't that a little weird?

>>46467546
Oh, she'll serve, alright.

>>46469891
>Meanwhile, Bifrons is still fucking around moving corpses more than actually participating. He'll never catch up with that attitude.

>>46467063
>if it was perfect to begin with it wouldnt have broken
>living beings are as immutable as pseudo-intellectual platitude about perfection
>the universe exists with a constant state that can be "broken" at all and isnt ever changing and maleable
>rigid, constrained human concepts of logic and reason apply necessarily to all things in the universe, even transcendent supra-physical beings

I could go on for a while about everything that's wrong with your idea.

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mfw this thread

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>>46467494
Then he is not all forgiving and all merciful.

>>46466994
>>46467445

>>46469685
Filthy heretic scum.

>>46470478
Aatrox looks like such homo.

>>46467035
Down the hall, first door to the left, Oppai-chan.

>>46466994
Demons already fulfill the role they were designed and assigned by the LORD and thus cannot rise.

>>46469956
Sorry anon, the Bible closes off prophecy with Revelation. There are no more messages coming from god

>>46467954
>A setting could have spiritual beings that are representative of the collective psyche of their subjects.
And therefore neither angels nor demons.

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>>46467445

>>46466994
Why not? But their respective environments would react differently to a renegade, so it would still not be the same.

>>46467652
>That's a retarded concept that's seldom true for animate or inanimate objects.
muh progression of entropy though mang
you can never ever restore an egg after it's been broken. It's just not possible without breaking uncertainty, and even if you wanted to restore it into similar state, you'd need to expend much more energy (and chaos elsewhere) to do this.

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>>46467442

>>46466994
>>If Angels can fall, can demons rise?
No because god does not forgive, once a sinner is forever a sinner, there is no going back.

>>46467062
2

>>46467850
Thats why in DnD the Blood War is a thing. If the force of Evil (specifically the demons and the devils) would ever unite, the forces of Good would be steamrolled. But they spend 90% of their time fighting each other, with the forces of Good maintainign the status quo (if demons are doing badly they send some angels to kill devils, and vise versa) to keep the war going forever.

>>46466994
One bad apple spoils the bunch.

Fuck demons.

>>46466994
I'd like a setting with a demonic creator where angels are just demons who discovered morality.

>>46467063
>implying perfect is best
>"The gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because every moment might be our last. Everything is all the more beautiful because we're doomed."

>>46467644
>White bats

Max fetish. More.

>>46466994

No.

Good is hard, evil is easy.

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>>46469838
That's interesting, because if they do have free will then they must have the ability to choose not to do evil and at least try to return to God.

>>46475577
Might be stealing that.

>>46470493
Irrelevant, corrupt brother in Christ

>>46468639
They get a Bentley.

>>46477255
>Implying I am brothers with a man who denies the authority of the pope as given by the savior.
Plus you're churches are pretty shitty desu; no sense of style or aesthetics.

>>46474472
The New Testament disagrees.

>>46466994
Nope, as the Hebrew Allmighty does not forgive.

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>>46467645
But Catholicism is all about everybody having the chance at redemption, no matter what. Just ask and you are forgiven. How is that not all merciful?

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>>46467442
Depending on setting, sentience of said undead and it's origin story. If they are turned against their will and gods in fantasy setings usually give a sh!t about their faithful i do gelieve it's posible.

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>>46467917
Hot nun thread?

Angels are not falling, angels fell.
Demons are not falling, demons are fallen.
The whole story of The Fall is just backstory explaining why things are the way they are. Demons and Satan exist to be the negative. Even then if you follow the Bible in the end they all get tossed into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

>>46479110

This is all one dumb story tho. Like everything it depends on the setting.

>>46477343
>no sense of style or aesthetics.
You speak the truth. We are sadly awful in this regard

>>46467652
>In even 1000 years it wouldn't be surprising if we simply had a machine that a terrible criminal could walk into and minutes or hours later come out with a perfectly normal psyche, values and habits.
This combination of ignorance and conviction is some of the scariest shit out there today.

>>46469838
Does that imply that free will is inheritly evil if that's the only difference between angels and demons?

>>46477160
And does that imply that given a choice, free will is preferable to being good?

This is all very interesting

>>46466994
Yes

>>46471181

...That's Sparda from Devil May Cry,

>>46467211
But gravity doesn't just work one way.

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>>46474472

'I seriously hope you guys aren't talking about Christianity'

>>46471181
Your joke makes you look like a homo

>>46466994
The thing to remember with the non-temporal, that is all beings of spirit, is that they cannot change. This is not a lack of ability or will, it is because without time, their existence cannot progress. Simply put, god could change his mind, angels could fall and demons could rise, but none of them have the time.

>>46482217
But OP's question has already established that Angels can fall (under the hypothetical scenario we are constructing).

What you're doing is leaping in after someone has asked "What would you do with a million dollars?" to say "but you don't, do you?". It stifles the discussion unnecessarily.

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>>46480806
>And does that imply that given a choice, free will is preferable to being good?

Perhaps free will is necessary to do good or evil in the first place? If an angel is an extension of the divine will without freedom its essentially a tool. It doesn't do good or evil it simply does God's will, in the same way a hammer isn't good or evil, it just does what the hand that holds it wants.

God has free will, as do we. God would like us to do good, but for that to be meaningful there has to be the freedom to not follow The Plan. We're not automatons like angels, which means that while we are made by the same Creator we're apart from them in a fairly fundamental way. If an angel can fall, that means it must either be still following the divine plan in some form (in which case it never fell in the first place) or it achieved a degree of self-actualisation and has become human-like from its separation from God. If we assume the latter is the case, it could be that the rising demon is actually the desired outcome for the Creator - a being that has broken from God, realised the gravity of what that means and then come back home to be with its family out of love rather than obligation; its the parable of the prodigal son again.

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OP Here
Only shit I really didn't expect this thread to turn into anything