Less biased roleplaying games

You might consider Myfarog, FATAL, or Racial Holy War.

>>46217687
40k is generally apolitical.

>>46217687

Define 'the lefts' views.

>>46217687
>a bunch of murderhobos roaming the land, amassing vast fortunes and power and generally doing whatever they feel like without being accountable to anyone or paying a dime in taxes
>left

>>46217878
your character doesn't pay taxes?

What games are lefty itself? What morality is right in a game should depend less on game and setting but on the type of campaign youre doing and the general consens of gm and players, shouldn't it?

>>46217895
Don't mention moral relativism around OP, you might trigger him

What is OP even talking about?

>>46217889
Why would he?

I know a lot of people like games where they take land and rule a kingdom, but really, the stereotypical D&D game generally expects players won't be doing that.

>>46218047
I guess he refer to such values as "don't be a dick", that often define the "good guys" of the setting. To my knowledge Ayn Rand never wrote and RPG, so >>46217708 is probably closest to what he seeks.

>>46217708
I second this, especially RHW will be great for you since it doesnt promote lefty shit at all and has the most objective and sinply the best morality.
88 my friend!

>>46217687
What is that chart even charting? Annual deaths by firearms between 1965 and 2010 in New York?

>>46217895
Traveller, for one. Or Exalted. Pathfinder for sure.

>>46218047
Games where things like being gay and accepting individuals of all different races and sexual preferences are exclusively good behaviors, and any other attitude is evil. Or games where the "good" factions are basically communists and anyone who isn't or anyone who supports capitalism, is considered the "bad" guys who oppress everyone.

>>46217687
>Unlabeled axes
>no indicators of what the difference is between low Y value and high Y value.
Get off my board.

>>46218164
Pathfinder is a game that is basically not setting bound at all so how the hell can't you play it with right ideals? I haven't played traveller or exalted yet so I can't day if you made a mistake with pf or are a retard

>>46218218
>Implying 75% of groups don't just play in the official setting

>>46218164
>being gay is good behavior
Pretty sure there isn't a single published game where that is stated or implied.

Also
>harming people for no reason/your own profit is evil
Big fucking surprise. Being a selfish asshole is the definition of evil.
You're free to play a selfish asshole in pretty much any game, but don't expect a pat on the back for it.

>>46218304
QED

>>46218304
>Pretty sure there isn't a single published game where that is stated or implied.

If homosexuality is mentioned at all, or as anything other than as a wholly negative thing that results in being burned at the stake by righteous villagers, it's probably left-wing propaganda.

>>46218164
>Traveller, for one.
Isn't that more Imperialist? Being a monarchist is hardly Leftist, unless you are a monarchist, and the monarch you're objecting to is Napoleon.

>Or Exalted.
you lost me completely

>Pathfinder
Geeze, just don't include those scary homosexes if they offend you. It's not like you have to build a campaign out of them.

>>46218164
>Traveller, for one
How the fuck is Traveller leftist? Every other character is a former member of an Imperalist armed force!

>>46218559
Who knows? I guess considering things from other perspectives = leftist, which means that any games where people who are different from you have actual perspectives are inherently leftist.

>>46218661
Seriously, I want that faggot to front up and explain exactly how Traveller is leftist. Did he just name an RPG at random?

>>46218514
Oh. OK.

So what you're saying is OP is a faggot.

What.

>>46218740
My thoughts exactly.

>>46217687

Have you tried not playing Pathfinder?

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>>46218304
you are either willfully ignorant or a liar.
the flagship product of the flagship RPG has overtly commented on the issue

>>46218797
>game let's you choose your character's sexual orientation
>Left wing propaganda!

What would be right wing propaganda when following this line of thought?

>>46218797
Neither. Your reading comprehension is non-existent.
Nowhere does it say that being gay or anything else on the LGBT spectrum is good or makes you good.
It is okay. You can do that. There is no value attached to the statement.

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>>46218817
i never said sexuality is left wing propoganda.
i said that RPGs talk about it
in response to anon saying that they do not

>>46218797
I cannot believe that is actually in an RPG book.

>itis.jpg
>hashtagobviously

If there's something that would make me ban my kid from playing a game, it's that.

"play a mentally ill imaginary fairy, it's great!"

>>46218797

I just want to point out that Corellon and the lore surrounding him have been that way since at least 2e. So, this isn't new.

no.

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>>46218839

>>46218844
>played 2e from inception.
>1989, so old fag
>inb4 get back to /hwg/
>inb4 too old for 4chan
>never heard of Corellon
Does google
Oh, it's faggoty realms shit.
>into the trash it goes.

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>>46218817
Come on, dude. If your game includes anything but white men in the missionary position, it's leftist propaganda.

>>46218865
>inb4 get back to /hwg/
huh?

>>46218862
I feel like this is a troll, but given Poe's Law, it can sometimes be hard to tell, so I'll go through this anyway. Just because somebody who is good has a particular trait, that doesn't mean that that particular trait is good. My grandfather smoked a shit load, and was a really nice person, but that doesn't mean that smoking a lot is morally good (and much less that that is what made him morally good).

>>46218892
To expand on this: Hitler drank water. Regularly.

>>46218841
Anon doesn't say they don't talk about it, Anon said:

>Pretty sure there isn't a single published game where that [being gay is good behaviour] is stated or implied

The trouble is that if you're really not a fan of homosexuality, you're likely to end up perceiving any mention of it as being positive, or pandering. You set up a false dichotomy of "us" and "them", where to even mention the existence of your enemy is to give them power.

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>>46218865
>played 2e from inception.
>1989, so old fag
>never heard of Corellon
You've been playing D&D since 1989 and you've never heard of the chief god of the elves, who's been around since 1e at least (and almost a full decade before you started playing)?

>>46218914
You're probably confusing OP with that example, anon

>>46218914
Sounds like Jewish propaganda to me.

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>>46217687
i would actually have to say that DnD is pretty right wing despite a few isolated lefty things.
>rightists believe their is an objective good and evil, whereas postmodern regressive leftists believe morality is relative. DnD soundly endorses objective morality to the point where it is a fundamental force of nature.
>rightists believe some cultures are superior than others, whereas leftists think all are equal. dnd overtly portrays orcs and such as savage jackasses in comparison to the civilized races.
>rightists are often religious, where as leftists hate religion (except for brown people's religions, they like those). Religion is a major part of DnD and a major source of power and motivation for characters.
>rightists are often individualistic and meritocratic. the heros of DnD are the epitome of rugged indidualists who make their own way and become powerful and rich because of it.
i could think about it more but i think thats enough

>>46218164
Why package morality that way? How can you make a case for not bullying gays being a bad thing? Sounds like you want some sort of bible adventures thing. (Is there a bibleman RPG out there?)

I don't give a shit about gays but it's generally considered a 'good' or benevolent thing not to be shitty to people if they aren't harming you. That's not a leftist thing, that's just common decency. Anything that encourages that sort of behaviour is contrary to the general principle of 'live and let live' which is the de-facto for passively 'good' morals.

I guess you could always homebrew some setting where buttsex and communism is killing the mother crystal that sustains the realm or something.

>>46218928
I don't really see how to not confuse OP with any example.

>>46218938
>it's generally considered a 'good' or benevolent thing not to be shitty to people if they aren't harming you. That's not a leftist thing
It shouldn't be, at least. These days, it seems like it increasingly is.

>>46218865

I wish I'd played 2e from inception. But, I was three when it came out.

Still my favorite edition though.

>>46218885
>>46218885
A lot of old dudes frequent /historical wargames general/ in a poll we had about 10 guys above 55. Im 23 and visit it too thoug

>>46218936
The left wing in the USA are fucking crazy. The sad thing is that their branch of feel-good divisive identity shit is becoming popular over here too.

>>46218953
I hear ya, as someone who was very liberal in my younger days and now consider myself to be kind of in the middle I don't appreciate that the left is seen to be the only game in town when it comes to being morally decent to people. If a lot of the right weren't making pantomime villains of themselves people wouldn't throw themselves so deep into liberalism. Not that being a bit lefty is a bad thing at all. It just strikes me people think you have to buy the whole morality as a package. I don't want to be Adolf Hitler, nor do I want to be a wibbly wobbly gender fluid trans Puerto Rican otherkin.

>>46218956
I'd be more interested in historical wargaming if the barrier for entry seemed a little lower, but it seems really... intimidating? Compared to fantasy or sci-fi.

>>46217687
Golarion
Asmodeus is Lawful Good

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>>46218957
>>46218957
you eurofags are the ones that gave postmodern herpes to us, now we are just giving it back, after mutating it into superherpes. enjoy.

if you are interested in fighting against it. i would recommend this book. it is a solid defense of liberalism against the postmodern regressive left, written by a liberal.
http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7705.html
or this book written by a libertarian
http://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hicks-ep-full.pdf

>>46218983
thats pretty standard. as you get older you start to move to the right. it happens to everyone, myself included.

to keep this post /tg/ related here is a picture fo a dragon, its pretty awsome

>>46218953
>>46218983
There's still sane right wing politicians, but they're usually farther down the political ladder where they aren't seen.
How did it get this bad, man?

>>46218995
>>46218995
What do you think is intimidating about it? People are very helpfull and nice in the community. We have good guides and you dont have to be historicly accurate, I know half of my armies arent. Just drop by in hwg and ask some questions.

>>46219003
First book looks good, anon. will give it a read cheers.

>>46218957
Hey, American leftist here. I'm just gonna say that I don't have a problem with the positions given in >>46218936 as exaggerated ones designed to emphasize distinctions. But those are absolutist, black-and-white positions, which tend not to represent the nuance in the viewpoints of the leftists I know, so they shouldn't be taken as strictly accurate. Also, this thread exists because stuff like game settings that have gay people triggers (some) right wingers, so maybe you shouldn't be pointing the crazy finger.

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>>46218957
Tell me about it, I've been betrayed by the left globally.

Where is my sexual liberty, my governmental decisions based on scientific studies, my renewable energy sources AND responsible nuclear energy, my godlike super crops that are easy to grow and contain almost all nutrients required for a healthy lifestyle and the most important rule being "If you don't want to do something then don't."

Now the only thing left is choosing between Hitler and transfurry demiromantic Hitler, and both political spectrum are self serving and corrupt as fuck EVERYWHERE.

>>46219016
Yeah that's what I'm getting at. the focus is entirely on nutters and the people making the loudest fart noises with their mouth. It's a natural result of western media, I just worry generations coming up now and after won't look at it with a grain of salt and retain the core value that most people are just trying their best and are essentially good. Trump is terrible = anyone on the right side of things is as bad as him etc

>OP wants an RPG -system-
>Because cuckservative asshurt about a -setting-

>>46218797
You know the REAL reason they put shit like that in right? It's not the juice or the illumanitis it's some writer who puts in there just so they can show the rulebook to they're progressive friends and say "Look, look! I wrote that! Look at how progressive I am!" and then they get a respectful nod and this just makes their fucking day. It's basically the same as putting in a reference to baneposting in a rulebook, except not as hilarious.

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>>46217687
Fucking cuckservatives like you need to be strung up. No one is interested in your "family values" and kike worship.

>>46218983
As a lefty (by American standards), I generally agree. I think there needs to be a balance to keep people honest. I don't want to be in the spot of rooting for one party to dominate everything always, because one-party rule is very far from ideal. I want there to be a high-minded (or at least, not low-minded) debate. I want there to be push and pull. I want there to be a respectable opposition to keep me and my guys honest. And I certainly don't think that the further left you go, the better. I just believe that the golden mean is to the left of where many other Americans do. My hope is that we're seeing the death of the current Republican party played out in the presidential campaign, and that a better one will replace it as politics realign.

>>46219070
Careful with that edge, kiddo.

>>46219061
I'd argue it's largely about opening the game up to a wider audience, because more players = more $.

>>46218661
That's the exact opposite of the American left who's only rule is agree with us or else.

>>46217708
>Racial Holy War.
>explicitly white supremacist in the background
>whites are objectively the least powerful race in the actual rules
No wonder they lost world war 2.

>>46219070
>>46219047
>cuckservative
>cuckservatives
By all means argue viewpoints, but please don't do that obnoxious bullshit.

>>46219088

>In a game about imagination, it has to be spelled out that you can play different sexes, races, and genders

This never ceases to amuse me.

>>46219088
I don't think people really need to be told that they can play as a transgender or gay character though, it just seems so unnecessary. Especially when you're dealing with a game like D&D where you can be all over kinds of different sorts of people so really being gay or transgenders pretty vanilla by comparison. The whole "widening appeal" angle is what they pitch to the higher ups but really it's all about that sweet sweet respectful nod.

>>46217889
The 'unreported criminal activities' field on your 1040EZ is a trap chummer.

>>46219091
People in this thread are in a snit because some games *mention* gay people without actively vilifying them. You don't exactly have the high ground here.

>>46219029
I agree that it's also pretty crazy to get your panties in a twist because homosexuality is mentioned in a game. I'm a big fan of Eclipse Phase, and always find it funny how people there get upset that stuff they don't like is mentioned. The very existence of things they don't like in a game is, to a subset of people, intolerable.

But the reason I'm also pointing the crazy finger at the USA's left wing is that it never seems to address actual economic inequality - it's focused on the feel-good politics of identity, and presents that as the problem that's keeping equality out of reach. I'm guessing it's down to cultural differences; over there you've got your Horatio Alger-esque American Dream, where anyone can feel like they can make it, as long as they try hard enough.

>>46219108
except that dozens of nerds crow on and on forever about how "muh realistic medieval fantasy simulation" would kill all fags and trannies on sight and keep women from stepping foot outside the kitchen

this hobby is FULL of people who need to be told that gay characters are okay

>>46219101
OP was asking for it by being a dipshit.
If he really cared about this kind of thing he should just write his own setting
I actually appreciate OP because it gave me the idea for a homebrew system that rewards rigid obedience and adherence to rules to mock authoritatian ideology. Some kind of reverse cyberpunk setting too.

>>46219103
I personally find it a bit inelegant, but it probably does actually make a difference in enough cases to... uh... make a difference.

>>46219114

Right and Left in America boils down to little more than rhetoric in most cases. The worst part is, many of those who support one or the other believe that American Dream white lie, and it's actually hurting the country.

As for people getting angry about things they don't like being in an RPG... You probably can't help that. Some people will just be angry about anything. I imagine there's some Neo Nazi somewhere who foams at the mouth every time he sees "[material] golem" in a rulebook.

>>46219120

As much as I am repulsed by people who are that bigoted, they can (and should) play the game however they want to.

And you can always kick them from your groups/games if they're disruptive for you.

>>46218164
Hahaha. Wow. It must be terribly sad to be you. I bet your hands and other parts are HUGE just like your best buddy. What is it like to feel so persecuted? Tell me more about your struggle. Oh wait, don't. Because this whole thread is shitty bait.

>>46217687
Sounds to me like you have some pretty extreme political views, so much so that you project opposition of those views onto everything around you that isn't directly adhering to how you see the world.

FATAL is probably the game for you.

>>46219138
>Some people will just be angry about anything.

And thus, /tg/.

>>46218164
>games where the "good" factions are basically communists and anyone who isn't or anyone who supports capitalism, is considered the "bad" guys

You mean Star Trek?

>>46219101
OP will gladly let Farouk and Jamal bang his mom so long as they're "creeshtun folk" with good work ethic.

After all, negros and moslems aren't godless big government types.

People of the cuckservative persuasion will be among the first to be purged.

>>46219132

I get what you're saying.

But yeah, I've played all kinds of characters over the years, and never needed to be told it was okay. But then, those sorts of sidebars probably weren't aimed at me in the first place.

>>46219124
>OP was asking for it by being a dipshit.
Okay. But I'm not sure that responding in kind is the best way to go. I'm just saying that OP is making folks like him look bad, do you really want to do the same?

>>46219114
I guess I can see where you're coming from. Leftist politics certainly aren't perfect here. But if we're typifying them as crazy, I have to ask: compared to what? Because leftists elsewhere tend to be more radical in their ideology, and rightists seem to be stockpiling as much crazy as they can get their hands on. (And sadly, most of the independents I talk to seem to just be politically lazy: "they're both bad, so I can disengage and not have to think about stuff.")

>>46218164
>>46217687
>>46218842

Jesus fuck could you suck any more dicks? 90% of all fantasy settings are backwards and grim where women and people who stand out or come from further away than the next village are treated with suspicion. Do you need a system that explicitly tells you to be an asshole?

Like, roll for gaybashing? Built in oppression scores at character creation?

I love me some gritty, historical levels of xenophobia and misogyny but fuck me if your thread doesn't make me throw up in my mouth.

First of all, mentioning gay people or different cultures in a setting doesn't mean that it's automatically pandering or the right way of doing it or lalala gay agenda, some times it's just to have some variety in the setting instead of literally the entire planet being 14th century England+magic.

Up until christianity became the top dog, fucking younger men was accepted and commonplace numerous and varied places in the world, then cultural norms shifted. (and now, ironically, the clergy does a lot of the boyfucking) but just saying that it's "stupid" in a fantasy setting is idiotic. The greeks, romans, macedonians and ottomans would like a word with you. Hell, they still do it in the middle east.

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>>46219187
I feel like this is pertinent to the discuss.

>>46219120
The reason this argument is retarded is that the rulebook isn't going to magically make everyone change their opinion, and the people who play with their friends who share their views never had this problem to begin with.

The number of butthurt americans who can't shut up about how (insert rpg company) are pandering to tumblr or whatever by saying that you can totally make a gay or trans character in your happy make belief fun time murdergame should tell you how much the mention of it in the rules helped people be more chill about it.

>>46219162
>But if we're typifying them as crazy, I have to ask: compared to what?

Perhaps crazy wasn't the right word, but it's the closest I've got. It's crazy compared to what the left wing is elsewhere. It's crazy compared to what the left wing could be like over there. It's like a crazy version of leftist thought. It's not crazy because of it's extremity, or radicalism, it seems crazy because it doesn't address the core issue - capitalism is inherently unequal, inequality is going to happen in that system. It's fighting for equality in a system where equality cannot exist, by tackling problems that will not actually solve economic inequality. By positing that what's important is the racial/gender/religious/sexual identity of the poor and of the wealthy, it serves only to divide the very class that the left wing is supposed to represent.

So it's crazy, because you can look at the way in which those with economic power have generally sought to sow division in the group that outnumbers them. Now imagine if a bunch of people suddenly show up one day with an agenda that basically goes "let's get the economically worse off people to fight one another", and try to think of a kinder word than "crazy" to describe them.

Also, golems are okay.

>>46218164
You know that it's an explicit rule of the setting in Exalted that there is no objective morality and the "good guys" are generally gonna turn out to utter fucking assholes of the highest order right? It's as lefty as you want to make it, the same could be said of pretty much every single RPG ever.

>>46219241

That's the thing though. The American Left is almost indistinguishable from the American Right aside from certain social rhetoric.

The Obama administration is essentially no different from the Bush administration on important issues like economics, foreign policy, and almost anything else you can name.

The Affordable Care Act is essentially unchanged from the very program Mitt Romney (a Republican) set up in Massachusetts. The fact that people can't see past his skin color and his lip service to Leftist ideas I cannot fathom.

>>46218164
Well, reality has a well documented liberal bias. Why shouldn't Golarion?

Also, half the nation's in Golarion are religious and many of the "good" groups are not. The Pathfinder Society organized games/modules make the game's namesake organization out to be filled with shifty, horrible people that get a pass because they're good for business. The Dark Archive is run by folks from literal-demon worshiping BDSM not-Rome. Sczarni/The Exchange are basically thieves and fritter

But sure, they don't hate gays or trannies, so that's too lefty.

>>46219241
Okay. I guess I can see where you're coming from. I think one of the problems with left wing politics here is that it wants to fix the problems of the system, but it wants to do that without really upsetting the status quo, which is a tricky thing to do. As a result it tends to focus on surface-level bullshit and pretend like appearances are the problem, while leaving the deeper, underlying causes alone (or chipping away at them only very gradually).

>>46219187
>90% of all fantasy settings are backwards and grim where women and people who stand out or come from further away than the next village are treated with suspicion.
No they aren't. Nor should they be. Also, I feel that most people who call for "gritty, historical levels of xenophobia and misogyny" don't realize that things weren't ever as bad as they want. Like, it would be better to be gay in most historical cultures than in, say, Iran currently.

On the subject of Christianity, it's interesting to note that a lot of places in Africa were *previously* really accepting of homosexuality and even transsexuality as part of their culture... but then Christianity came in and now Uganda is a shithole.

>>46218926
> 2-20
> 3-30
Why the fuck do they make it so you have to reverse engineer what dice to roll to determine damage? Hell, I remember playing this back on the day, but never really read the stats, just focused on my character stuff (was rather young at the time). Was everything like this?

>>46219284
The thing about the Affordable Care Act is that 90% of Democrats would've liked something more progressive, but because the Republicans refused to come to the table at all, they needed the support of literally every Democrat in the Senate (and both Independents) to get the thing passed. That meant that folks like Joe Lieberman, who campaigned for McCain, had to be on board. It was also the early days of the Obama administration, so there was still the hope that a decent number of Republicans would support something centrist and politics wouldn't have to be a perpetual war typified by a scorched earth approach. But if you look at what the core of the parties stand for on most issues, they're pretty different. It's just that their policies get dragged towards the middle, because that's all they can manage to get passed.

>>46219322

It's not as if they have much of a choice. It is very difficult to institute radical change without violence and revolution being involved.

>>46218862
I don't know about D&D, but Pathfinder has several evil characters who are actually gay. They also don't make a big deal out of it, because this is Paizo, not Wizards, and they show diversity by actually being diverse instead of saying "oh, you can totes be gay".

Either way, how is that right wing? Why should sexuality even have anything to do with your argument in the first place?

>>46218918
For people who feel that way, >>46218875

>>46218957
No they're not. You just get your cherry picked information from /pol/, who thinks that asking for human dignity is prohibiting free speech.

>>46219322
I suppose the thing is that politics are going to be rooted quite deeply in the culture; few people are going to be taken seriously if they drift too far away from it, and change is going to come slowly. The USA (again, this is just my perception as an outsider and occasional visitor) has a strong "capitalism ho!" culture, and the left-wing has had to adapt to that over there. Their chosen battlegrounds are necessarily going to be different than the battlegrounds of the left over here, which is fine; the problem arises when, thanks to things like the internet, we end up importing these ideas and trying to apply them, uncritically, to our own left-wing movements.

>>46219332

To be fair, pretty much every place Britain touched has ended up a shithole in one way or another.

>>46218797
>that entire paragraph

Do you really need to spell this out? You can do all that shit in any RPG.

>>46219349
>Was everything like this?
Yeah. Most of the time it was pretty easy to figure out (2-20 is obviously 2d10), but I agree that it's not the ideal way of statting things.

>>46219363
>To be fair, pretty much every place Britain touched has ended up a shithole in one way or another.

It's truly our gift to world. We're all fucking miserable, and we're not happy until you're not happy either.

>>46219103
Remember that every core Rulebook needs to be written as if the reader had never heard of RPGs before they read it. That's why they always have the obligatory "you can be anything you imagine kids!" bullshit in there

>>46219352

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that Obama tried to extend our time in Iraq, and Hillary (the current Democratic frontrunner) wasn't an evil flip-flopping cunt.

Seriously, go look up her voting record, or her speeches about gay marriage, or even the bankruptcy bill she approved while a senator, or the NDAA that she helped pass in 2012 that has provisions for the U.S. military to arrest people suspected of terrorism, with indefinite detainment so long as they have a letter signed by the Vice President.

Obama's major campaign contributors were from the surveillance industry when he was trying to get re-elected.

All of the major candidates have been bought and paid for by special interests. They don't give a shit about the issues, or you, or me. They're political mercenaries for hire who will say whatever it takes to get elected.

>>46219204
I bet the writer was high when we wrote that

>>46219366
The thing is that gays and transgender people are playing RPGs and feeling left out and unrepresented, so they're all going over to [better] games like Pathfinder. What Wizards didn't seem to understand is that part of this is that Paizo doesn't just pay lip service to inclusiveness and representation, they actually have several characters who represent fictionalized versions of various demographics (Kyra is effectively Middle Eastern, for instance) and even sexualities and gender identities (Kyra is also a lesbian, and characters in modules have been transgender. One of the iconics is even trans).

Wizards wanted to play to the progressive demographic, but didn't want to do any *actual* effort. Also, >>46219378 which is why you get "here's how to RPG, since you clearly had no clue and just randomly bought the book because of the cover".

>>46219357
This is true. I feel, however, that Democrats have had a tendency to be a bit weak kneed, and have shied away from championing their own ideology in favor of wanting to seem reasonable and centrist. Like when they get criticized for something instead of defending it, they run away from it, saying they're not *really* in support of that thing, like it's something bad. Republicans, on the other hand, seem to have exactly the opposite instinct. They double down and go as extreme as possible. I feel like a middle ground between the two approaches would be ideal.

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>>46217687
>Does anyone know a roleplaying game /setting that doesn't make the lefts views the good guy values?

Warhammer Fantasy RP.

>>46219392
That's the way the political machine works in the US. Bitching about it isn't going to change it.

>>46219361
This, it's very hard to gain the necessary momentum to enact real economic change in the US because the opposition is so strong and fairly rooted in the culture. I think it's starting to come around as younger people realise that many of their problems can be traced back to horrendous economic management and the fact that Bernie Sanders did as well as he did is a good sign but you can't blame the left for picking their battles

>>46218122
It's a chart demonstrating that correlation is not causation.

>>46217895

Blue Rose.

Some games are getting more and more leftish, like Pathfinder.

Exalted is actually completely right-wing, though. The Exalted, especially Solars, are ubermensch. Forget the gay sex or whatever: the overriding rule of Exalted is that Might makes Right. It is the cosmic Law.

>>46219396

I'm not opposed to gay or transgender people enjoying RPGs, but I doubt they're such a huge demographic that they're affecting sales.

Most people who buy/play PF are the people who abandoned D&D when it switched to 4e and wanted to keep playing the same game they'd played for years, had system mastery of.

On that note... PF is hardly a "better" game (yes, I know, you qualified it, I just have to say it because autism or something).

As for Wizards being cowards about inclusivity... well, remember that D&D is the same brand that got demonized for being a gateway drug to Satanism, witchcraft, and all sorts of other non-sense, causing them to censor 2e. Wizards may not have been at the helm at the time, but they certainly are aware this happened.

By contrast, most non-PnPers out there have likely never even heard of Pathfinder.

>>46219423

There's literally nothing that can change it. Voting doesn't matter outside of local politics, thanks to things like the electoral college and super delegates.

>>46219423
You're right, it won't. We have to do something. Feel the Bern.

>>46219447
>Voting doesn't matter outside of local politics
Oh come on now, that's super retarded and you know it.

Populist voter hype was 100% responsible for kicking Shillary in the cunt and sweeping Obummer into office in '08, and it's currently responsible for murdering the entire GOP establishment in their rocking chairs in favor of the God Emperor as we speak.

>>46219447
That really only applies to presidential elections. Your vote is much more powerful in every other election.

Yeah the two parties have essentially made themselves the only game in town and will likely be impossible to dislodge but you got to work with the system you've got, not the one you want.

>>46219304
>muh reality liberal bias
>only successful communist organizations are insect colonies
>muh sweden successful socialism, except for the slow degradation of their economy and it seems a great deal of programs will need scaled back over the next few decades for sustainability.
Sweden just wishes it was Finland at this point.

>>46219452
>Feel the Bern.
Can't wait for Burgerville to replace me with a machine because paying all your burger-flippers $15 an hour is impossible. #Bernvictim

>>46219392
As far as Obama goes, my biggest disappointment has probably been the whole executive powers thing insofar as it applies to privacy, whistle blowers, etc. For somebody who used to speak about openness and opposing government overreach, he's been very unfriendly on those issues. On the other hand, I do think that certain policy shifts were reactions to the way things were playing out on the ground. I don't want a guy who isn't going to shift course on that basis because his ideology trumps reality. Unfortunately, I think it's only natural to value short-term security over long-term freedom when you have to look at intelligence reports of all the people who want to do America harm.

As for Clinton, she's a politician's politician. She took positions that would generally inch the nation in the direction that leftist want it to move in rather than taking a strong stand. Honestly though, that's often the bet way to get things done, even if it doesn't make her look like she has much integrity. I can quite understand it leaving a bad taste in your mouth, and even make you contemptuous of her on a personal level, but I'm not sure how much it effects what she'd actually get done if she got to be president. One thing to remember is how much of a stalemate there is in congress, so being more leftist doesn't necessarily mean you could move the ball any further than somebody who is comparatively centrist.

>>46219145
Calm down brah, the OP is probably bait but most of the discussion has been remarkably civil for 4chan.

>>46219462

Okay, you have a point there, but it partially has to do with media saturation and politicians favoring opinion polls for determining their votes rather than taking a stand on their principles.

Hopefully we can have a repeat of Shillary getting kicked in the cunt, but... I'm not hopeful. Her backers REALLY want her to be President.

>>46219485

Hillary will just be more of the same. No difference in foreign policy, and she'll just be upholding Obama's rather anemic social reforms.

My cynical view aside, I can see where you're coming from and respect that, even if I disagree.

>>46219452
If i had a nickel for every asshole who loves their primary and caucus and wouden't vote for voting reform on their life, but 4 months later hates fucking super delegates because their guy wont get any, I would be have made minimum wage as an (unpayed) political intern.

>>46219531

Right?

>>46219485
Are you literately me? I have been having slight memory problems lately...

>>46219439
>I'm not opposed to gay or transgender people enjoying RPGs, but I doubt they're such a huge demographic that they're affecting sales.

It's not like pandering to other demographics is losing them sales from their core audience. They understand neckbeards will decry your game as SJW bullshit and fork over $60 for the next expansion in the same breath

>>46219503
I just don't see her winning a general election, people on both sides of the aisle are mad as hell at the establishment, and she's not even subtle about being a talking head-in-a-jar and a pathological liar.

Sure the DNC is going to railroad her to a win over Bernie, but voter turnout numbers are basically identical to the '08 numbers except this time it's the Republicans that are seeing massive turnout.

>>46217895
WoD is so left it's actually starting to impact the quality of the game itself. (If you don't like X you're WEIRD and BAD! You MEAN and BAD person)

Eclipse phase is so libertarian it is genuine fucking problem. (Have you heard of our lord and saviour anarcho-capitalism?)

OP has a point in the sense that conservative and center right values are incredibly underrepresented in tabletop games as anything but bad guys.

Really in general the problem is that writers like to make bad guys out of those they dislike, and they tend to be left leaning people who until the newest crop of writers were all very angry with Reagan and Thatcher.
So of course social reforms are good, conservatism is bad if its even addressed as valid ideology.

>>46219576
The Mage20 bullshit about transgendered otherkins and an entire tradition dedicated to tumblr feminism put me off from buying the book, and I don't even normally care for these things. It's just too "in your face" for me to stomach.

>>46219581
>I just don't see her winning a general election
Against Trump or Cruz? I mean, she might well lose to Rubio or Kaisch, but neither of them is going to be running against her.

>>46219581
To be honest, I cant see her (or him for that matter) losing the general. The RNC is mad as hell, because they cant get a candidate who could give the Democrats a real fight to win a republican caucus.

>>46219614
D&D is pretty right-wing though. Paladins crushing OBJECTIVELY EVIL people for example.

But I do agree that certain other settings have gone off the deep end, especially WoD. Thankfully, your DM/ST can just ignore it, ours does.

>>46219576

No argument there. If people were really committed to being against things they didn't like, they'd play a different game, and buy those supplements, or play what they already have.

Can't fix stupid I guess.

>>46219581

Well, I guess we'll see. The only nice thing I can say about Trump is that he's not bought and paid for. He pretty much paid for his own campaign.

>>46219614

WoD has always leaned that way, but I guess it's worse now. Man, Werewolf the Apocalypse always loved to beat you over the head with the "pollution is bad!" rhetoric.

Lazy writers writing strawmen to knock down. It's probably never going to change.

>>46219632
As a long time WoD fag and actual fag I share your sentiment, I was so hype for mage but then its just so goddamn preachy, its worse then Beast. But then it starts getting good and oh shit alternate realities and magic and adve- BAM BACK RIGHT IN YOUR FACE. Again and again and again. Fuck that book, not to mention the clusterfuck overlapping new skills/backgrounds/merits just copy pasted from all the owod mage books.

>>46219614
>OP has a point in the sense that conservative and center right values are incredibly underrepresented in tabletop games
See >>46218936

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>>46219651
>but I guess it's worse now

If only you knew how bad things really are.

>>46219651
>He pretty much paid for his own campaign.
He loaned his campaign the money, and could use fundraising to pay himself back.

>>46219651
WoD varies a lot based on splat, I find. VtM is pretty neutral (in the left/right debate anyway, especially with Sabbat in the picture), while WtA is extremely left, and MtA is very left, though it's a bit more complex since the Technocracy mixes things up. Wraith is extremely neutral.

>>46219650

Yeah. I always ignore that stuff when I run WoD. In my Mage games, I run pretty much all of the groups as shades of grey - with the low-level Technocrats being slightly less grey (after all, the whole point was to bring magick to the masses and eliminate the monsters who preyed on them).

One of the best things about WoD is that you don't have to follow canon or metaplot. They can safely be ignored, and what fluff there is (and you don't like) can be written off as lies and conspiracies.

>>46219681

Ah, Wraith. My favorite line.

>>46217687
What about settings that don't really have a good guy, like D&D or Shadowrun or Exalted?
D&D has a Good alignment but they aren't "The good guys", they're yet another self-interested faction that murderbones people who stand in the way of their prosperity.

>>46217857
Opposed to slavery, and opposed to influencing people's personality with surgery/drugs, interested in the well-being of everyone, including the people who are a complete resource drain and hold back the prosperity of others.
Often avid supporters of self-expression and pride in your identity (e.g. with alternative sexualities), but staunch enemies of criticism and disapproval - want the world to be a positive and approving place, even if you're doing self-destructive dumb shit.

The left seems to think that pride in straight white males (ideally married fathers) is a bad thing, because pride is inherently abusive. I disagree - the stuff straight white males invented has helped people across the globe, and will probably continue to do so.
Note that alignment systems do not reflect this. You can be complete maximum "my groups are awesome" proudmode, and so long as you use your success to help others, you are a Good person.

>>46217708
FATAL does not have a morality system.
Racial Holy War's morality system is inherently biased as the system is designed to be a tale of whites triumphing over nonwhites.
I have not heard of MYFAROG.

>>46219655
>its worse then Beast
Yeah, don't even remind me.

I wonder what Paradox is gonna do with the 4th edition. If it has the same bullshit, I'm gonna kill myself. (There's hope though, since it's not OP. We'll see.)

>>46219665

I wasn't very interested in Revised back when (art changes, some of the tone was different), and while my brother in law got me the V20 book, I haven't signed on for the others. I pretty much prefer 2e VtM and Mage.

So tell me, how bad has it gotten? Bear in mind that I'm aware of things like the Book of Crafts having an entire Craft that are dudes raised to be women in order to appease the Yomi Kings, and that LGBT characters were everywhere in the old stuff, plus there's the fucking Black Furies who I will never cease to hate because they're awful caricatures and you're supposed to take them seriously as being "good".

>>46219332
>No they aren't!
Yes they are, come on, read a book once in a while. Progressive hugbox settings are pretty exclusive to a couple of role-playing games, fantasy literature as a whole is not very preoccupied with making worlds that are friendly and liberal.

>On the subject of christianity
>Proceeds to completely agree

Well okay then.

>>46219697
>D&D has a Good alignment but they aren't "The good guys", they're yet another self-interested faction that murderbones people who stand in the way of their prosperity.
Yes, and according to D&D, that's OBJECTIVELY good. Because they're the good guys after all. You might think the paladin orders sound a bit fascist, but that's pretty similar to what a standard right-wing bible-belt person advocates.

>>46217687
>Does anyone know a roleplaying game /setting that doesn't make the lefts views the good guy values?
D&D is pretty fucking Libertartian.

>>46219363
>>46219376
Polite reminder that the Indians were still fucking burning widows alive when the brits showed up and that the africans have been perfectly capable of commiting every kind of atrocity on each other without the help of mean old white guys.

It's more accurate to point out that most colonies that eventually became independent proceeded to immediately fuck everything up.

>>46219741
Oh.
Well then D&D is wrong.

But still, Shadowrun.

>>46219763

Fair enough.

>>46219697
so what you call 'unbiased' is a system that has progress as the postulated highest good?

>>46219683
>One of the best things about WoD is that you don't have to follow canon or metaplot.
Yet it is cited as the number one reason why nWoD is so much better. I don't really understand, myself. I mean, you can just look at it like a toolkit and pick and choose, you don't HAVE TO include everything.

But yeah, same here. In our VtM game, Werewolves don't even exist and Mithras has crazy Mithraeic magic, mages are living underground because vampires conspired to murder most of them 700 years ago, and Michael of Constantinople is still alive. All the while, most of the setting is intact! It's great.

>>46219692
Shame nobody plays it. We've just hit on the Giovanni in our game, so I'd be interested if we could interact with Wraith more that way.

>>46218164
>Games where things like being gay and accepting individuals of all different races and sexual preferences are exclusively good behaviors, and any other attitude is evil.
That's the type of extremism I'd expect to see only in Paranoia, and then have it be played for black comedy like the rest of the setting. Make Friend Computer the result of outsourcing Human Resources and Diversity Regulations to an AI.

>>46219650
ALL STs do.

I've never seen a single person who gives enough of a shit about the rhetoric to actually implement it.

But no, D&D isn't right wing. It's not right wing because Paladins defeat evil, any more so than Arthurian myths are right wing propaganda because Galahad is the origin of the Paladin.

>>46219764

Within the context of the D&D metasetting, Good is a force in the universe, and therefore objective. The gods, who manifest this force/are made up of this force, enforce that objective morality.

Whether or not you agree with how good is portrayed in said metasetting is up to you, but within it, it's perfectly okay to kill anything with an Evil alignment.

Personally, I'm a moral universalist, so I don't generally hate the idea - but I do disagree with what's considered "objectively good" in D&D.

>>46219484
Only impossible if billion dollar owners don't want to take a pay cut. But don't worry, you'll be replaced by a robot anyway, so it's not like it matters.

>>46219531
Voter reform is probably the thing this country needs most.

>>46219731
I have read a book. Have you?
Also, who wouldn't agree that modern Christianity creates fucked up fundamentalists? Just because you're wrong about assuming a "Dark Ages" hellhole in pre-modern times doesn't mean you're wrong about missionary bullshit.

>>46219727
Well the newest Hunter book made a sidebar to tell you that you were weird if you though an alternative pronoun was bad.
Like, just out of nowhere, completely OOC, and for no real reason.
What's weird of course is that the game line ALREADY HAD alternative pronouns.

>>46217687
>Does anyone know a roleplaying game /setting that doesn't make the good guy views the good guy values?
Not really.

>>46219484
Yeah, never mind literally all the economists who have weighed in on the wage issue.

Never mind that Bernie Sanders is endorsed by the actual inspiration for the movie "Wall Street".

Never mind all of that.
Because you think you're clever for saying machines are cheaper than people at menial tasks none of it is relevant.

>>46218099
"don't be a dick" is a bad virtue because sometimes being a dick is necessary, either 'cause someone else has fucked up and you need to let them know not to do that shit again, or because someone else is a burden and an inevitable fuckup to everyone around them and you'd all be better off if they fucked off.

Also because every attempt to ban "being a dick" instead results in people using the rules to be a dick to each-other. Classic example is when people ban each-other for having the "wrong opinions" or the "wrong feelings". It changes the metagame, but people are still assholes.
Classic example is how modern "diversity" and "tolerance" have become about tyranny and censorship. Makes me feel bad for the people who ARE genuinely kind and wish well for other people, since now you can't be kind to GLBTs and kind to racists without each side getting pissy at you for being nice to the other.

>>46219777

Yeah. I never could interest my old group. Maybe I can get my old group into it. I might actually trust them with the Shadow mechanic.

Agreed - I could not fathom how the "No metaplot!" was a selling point for nWoD. I probably should have gotten the core rulebook when I had the chance, since it probably would have been a decent system to hack for just about anything I wanted to do with it.

Your game sounds great. I'm terribly jelly.

>>46219647
It's really easy to be ahead in the polls when the opposing party establishment is actively trying to sabotage the person you're most likely to be running against.

At this point in the race Ronald Reagan had similar numbers, and look how BTFO Jimmy Carter got.

>>46219796
That's because those myths are ancient, while D&D is produced today. Of course ancient texts don't relate to what we consider right-wing or left-wing, because they're so alien to our current standards of morality. (Even if it were, right-wing = conservatism, so it's at least closer.)

The point is that I think a right-wing person can more easily accept someone going out and killing someone else because they're "evil", while the left is more moral relativist. ("But they only a product of their environments! :(( don't blame them, blame their history of oppression by the white man!!!")

>>46219697
Shadowrun might not have good guys, but it defiantly has bad guys. Aztechnology are an oppressive, baby-killing regime, and the other AAA's aren't much better. The "hero's" tend to be anarchists, opposing the hyper-capitalist status quo.

>>46219763
Nobody implied there weren't awful people there doing awful things to begin with; we just introduced them to new, British forms of misery. Running large swathes of the world for the economic benefit of one country tended to bring with it some exciting new problems on scales unimaginable by pissant tribespeople.

>>46219829
I invite you to check out a socialist or anarchist forum.
No, seriously, go check out the anarchist subreddit.

>>46219614
>WAAAAAH no one represents cuckservativism
The politics of the "center right" are unabashedly evil. Too regressive to affect any manner of positive change in society and too cucked to excise cancers.

You people trigger easier and more violently than the dumbest SJW tumbler.

>>46218817
>What would be right wing propaganda when following this line of thought?

"Make some babies. It is important that you make some babies. If you cannot find a loyal partner of the opposite sex, then groom and discipline one until they become loyal. Enter a monogamous relationship with them, and create some goddamn babies. That is your character's end goal."

>>46219835
Hestaby is pretty close to a good guy, as was Dunkelzahn.

>>46219843
Don't you have school?

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>>46219803
Approval voting would fix a lot of problems, I think. That or ranked choice; I'm not picky. But both would undermine the hegemony of the two major political parties, making them very difficult to get passed.

>>46219145
>Tell me more about your struggle.
I want to play an evil campaign where my party builds a prosperous and successful empire, where our goal is the creation of an ubermensch class who gets to be really happy and enjoy life, a slave class who are mostly content because the benefits from living in the uber society outweigh the downsides of being slaves, and to genocide all the various low races to make room for the ubermensch utopia.

But all the Evil campaigns I join are edgymax oppression and life is shit for everyone, and the Good campaigns won't let me perform eugenics.

Feels bad man. Why can't tabletop games be like my computer strategy games?

>>46219647
>Rubio
Same shit, different wrapper.

>Kaisch
Boy I sure do love going to war with Russia over stupid bullshit. Have you listened to the guy? He tricks you with his "soft-spoken good ol' boy" routine, then proceeds to spout insane Neo-con bullshit left and right.

You're just saying the typical "you can't elect a non-establishment candidate, that's unpossible!" line that the media would have us believe, and if that's true then there isn't any fucking point in voting to begin with. I'll take my chances voting for someone who isn't going to continue actively destroying America because their party bosses say it's a good idea.

>>46218875
But
If your game only includes white men in the missionary position
then are they in the missionary position with other white men?
Scandalous!

>>46219828
It's not just polls. Cruz is intractable and very conservative, and is disliked by basically everybody he's ever worked with. Trump is, well... Trump. The Republicans have done their best to put forward the worst candidate they could find.

>>46219861
>approval voting when preferential voting exists and works just fine
Only Americans could come up with something like this.

>>46219874
But then who will you vote for, if not the establishment candidate?

Cruz is literally a theocrat, Trump hasn't held a consistent view in his life and is incredibly incompetent, and Bernie is going to lose because all the people who vote for him are marked as provisional and aren't counted.

>>46219031
>Where is my sexual liberty, my governmental decisions based on scientific studies, my renewable energy sources AND responsible nuclear energy, my godlike super crops that are easy to grow and contain almost all nutrients required for a healthy lifestyle and the most important rule being "If you don't want to do something then don't."
Uh oh! Seems like someone has a severe case of the "being idealistic"!

>>46219838
Yes, and it also created jobs, modernized and improved infrastructure.

The problem is that if you look at India today, it's turned into a country where someone as educated as a lawyer can stand up in court and, with a straight face, without being rolled in tar and feathers afterwards, make the argument that if HIS daughter went outside unaccompanied at night, he HOPES someone would murder or rape her because she'd have it coming.

At some point you have to stop making the excuse that "well the british showed up and started bossing people around" for people who largely fail to be decent human beings once free of the yoke of imperialism.

>>46219776
>so what you call 'unbiased' is a system that has progress as the postulated highest good?
Heavens, no. That'd be biased in my favour.

Personally I'd just like a system where you throw the concept of "Good" in the toilet and admit that in the world, people tend to be self-serving assholes that want to see their own groups benefit at the expense of others.
And I don't mean "Morally gray"
I mean "Morality irrelevant. Your goal is to make your numbers bigger than the other guy's numbers."

>>46219910
I honestly thought he was being sarcastic because that's pretty much what the yurups have, at least the northern ones.

>>46219874
I'm not saying I would vote for either of them in the (though I would if somehow the choice in the general election was between one of them and either Trump or Cruz). I'm saying they're more electable because other people are a lot more likely to vote for them.

>>46219903
>is incredibly incompetent
>His entire life has been a constant money parade built on the back of lucrative business decisions

Ok senpai.

>>46219925
>Responsible nuclear energy

>Let's just place our largest reactor right next to your capital, making sure that your capital is within radius of any leaks, very deliberately.

Yeah, the nordics are so responsible.

>>46219937
Safety features bitch.

They're not looking at a Chernobyl event and they have plenty of power with basically no chance of leaks.

>>46219927
The dude makes most of his money by licensing his name, most of his actual business ventures with him at the helm fail, and they tend to fail spectacularly.

He has, more than once, been locked out of control of his own ventures for the good of the companies.
Indeed one of his business ventures (A resort) was saved by outside investors on the explicit condition that he not be allowed any control over the project from then on.

>>46219937
>OH NO THE NUKULAR POWER!!!

>>46219925
RIP Sweden ;_;7

>>46219937
People care too much about radiation. I'm legitimately surprised we haven't resettled Pripyat yet.

>>46219952

Chernobyl was a scaled up saltwater reactor (like all the ones that have had problems) with no containment building whatsoever.

And it's primary purpose was not for power, but for refining uranium for nuclear weapons, and moreover, three of the four reactors were kept in operation right up until the USSR fell apart.

It's probably not that relevant to the discussion, but I thought I'd say something anyway.

>>46219903
>>46219903
>Trump hasn't held a consistent view in his life and is incredibly incompetent

Yes, the multi-billionaire businessman is incompetent, sure.

Yes, he's been around the block on political positions, but he's also not a career politician where that actually matters. I care about his positions NOW.

If he gets into office then flip-flops on all his issues he'll end up tarred and feathered and hung from the Empire State building, with the entire event jointly funded by the DNC and RNC is a once-in-a-lifetime display of jolly cooperation, with an after-show of Bill de Blasio doing a victory dance on his corpse.

>>46219952
That's not a fucking excuse for deliberately parking a nuclear reactor next to the capital city of another country, with the city within leak radius.

This in spite of protests by the other government.

Oh and of course the reactor is now closed down because the Swedish government decided that nuclear power is bad.

There is literally no part of "Responsible nuclear power use" that is applicable to the Nordics. None.

>>46219866
>Good campaigns won't let me perform eugenics
Hopefully because they realise eugenics is fucking retarded

>>46219896
>Only Americans could come up with something like this.
Approval voting is dirt simple and therefore easier to explain and push, and seems to me like it comes up with similar results to ranked choice. Mostly, I just want to do away with spoiler candidates and making people choose between who they want and who they think it's more practical to vote for. I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong on approval vs. preferential voting though. Sell me.

>>46217687
>Asks for Less Biased Roleplaying Games
>Actually wants just as biased but according to his own tastes.

>>46219937
When you have actual safety techs and solid bedrock instead of slavs and gooks who cut corners or build reactors on fault lines nuclear power is actually pretty safe.

>>46219763
>Polite reminder that the Indians were still fucking burning widows alive when the brits showed up

Polite reminder that the brits initially legalized it.

>>46219963
Imagine if a foreign country parked a nuclear reactor about 20 miles from your capital, then spend about 30 years talking about the huge chance of leaks and how they have to close it because of the small villages surrounding the plant.

That's the situation with Barsebäck.
It's getting closed down now because of the dangers of leaks, as estimated by the Swedish government itself. Not because there's been actual leaks, but because they don't like Nuclear any more.

I fucking defy you to give me a way this is sensible.

>>46219985
>Yes, the multi-billionaire businessman is incompetent, sure.
Isn't the analysis that if he had just invested the money he inherited in a good mutual fund, he would've made about the same amount of money and maybe a bit more?

>If he gets into office then flip-flops on all his issues he'll end up tarred and feathered
Dude, he has trouble remaining consistent from day to day.

>>46220020
>Brits invented shitty hindu customs

Okay then.

>>46219204
cringworthy as fuck

>>46220022
No, it's definitely because they don't like nuclear any more.

The disdain for nuclear power in sweden is more or less 100% political fashion and very little economical or environmental sense.

>>46218304
Blue Rose

>>46219985
>Yes, the multi-billionaire businessman is incompetent, sure.

Yes.
Yes he is.
He very clearly is.

The history of his deals and the amount of money he's made despite the opportunities he's been given say as much.

>f he gets into office then flip-flops on all his issues he'll end up tarred and feathered and hung from the Empire State building

The fucker hasn't even been consistent this election cycle.

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So chat is now discussing
>Nuclear radiation
>Capitalism
>Voting systems

And chat is NOT discussing
>Jews

Who are you guys? You aren't /pol/.

>>46219985
If he had just put the million dollars his dad gave him for his first business venture in the bank and let the interest pile up, he'd have more money than he's actually worth now after multiple failed businesses.

Trump's strength is definitely not business sense, it's that he's colourful and knows the right people.

>>46220044
Do you read what you respond to before doing so?

>>46218549
>>Or Exalted.
>you lost me completely
Basically if a game recognizes there are non-straight people and represents them in its world, it's clearly Leftist. Exalted never tells you "Gays are the good guys". Exalted's world does not give one flying shit what your orientation is.

>>46220038
It's the gap before "Just like real life." that makes it art.

>>46220056
Could you not?
Shitposting about /pol/ is worse than /pol/ at this point.

>>46220071
Exalted IS very, very, very, very, very non-straight heavy though, regardless of anything else.

>>46219835

Mind you, there is also plenty of Anarchist Villains. I mean, Winternight with a crazy Norse Anarchist Cult that wanted to end the fucking world. They were very much villains.

>>46219996

But eugenics is actually a thing, right? Like, how we breed animals for better bloodlines. We even breed crops the same way. Technically we all practice eugenics simply by having the most desirable mates pass on their genetic traits, leading to a healthier, generally stronger population.

>>46220036
>brits support and/or are indifferent to shitty hindu customs and cockblock people who feel like those should change until the pressure from London got too extrem

basically.

>>46220082
>Shitposting about /pol/ is worse than /pol/ at this point.
My main board is [s4s]

>>46219985
>Yes, the multi-billionaire businessman is incompetent, sure.

His dad actually gave him a fucking million dollars, and that's on top of all the cash the dude sunk into raising that son of his. The only way to be less of a self-made millionaire is to win your cash in the actual lottery.

>>46220093
Eugenics specifically refers to people. Generally the issue is that there is not a clear consensus on what makes a 'better human'.

Someone needs glasses, but they're a genius. Do they get to breed?
That retard has retard strength and a megacock. How do you classify them?

Generally speaking implementing eugenics means selecting for only the traits that the people in charge like.

You also run the risk of inbreeding over time due to a lack of genetic diversity. Never know when one stray virus will knock over 50% of your population.

>>46220117
No, because then at least YOU made the initial fucking investment.

>>46220125

Doesn't it work itself out naturally? The smarter, more powerful people generally marry people on the same standard.

In fact, the argument is that our 'safety net' is what keep retards alive and so on. If we just let those people die, we would have a generally superior population.

Don't we do that, too? We let non-viable animals die or get turned into food, and we keep the prime breeding stock like stud bulls and stallions for seeding a bloodline.

>>46220006
It does a much better job of exactly what you want, as people can vote exactly to their interest knowing that unless one of their candidates they ranked higher would win the vote anyway, their vote is not wasted.

Also, "rank the candidates in order of preference" isn't hard to explain either. And arguably easier to explain than the nebulous conflicts that arise in "candidates you approve of" for the second form of approval voting.

>>46219114
>I'm a big fan of Eclipse Phase, and always find it funny how people there get upset that stuff they don't like is mentioned

That tends to be their retarded economic ideas though, not the cyber-degeneracy thing.

>>46217687
>Nazis are evil

>"I'm so sick of this leftist bullshit fucking sjws holy fuck all these shitskins are ruining a hobby that is almost entirely within my power"

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>>46219925
>I honestly thought he was being sarcastic because that's pretty much what the yurups have

I wasn't because even here in yurups, the nuclear energy bullshit is sky high, they instead spend many more times the amount of money on windmill field then a nuclear power plant which would out preform it and cut money from nuclear power plants despite it would REALLY BE FUCKING GOOD if they would be upkept and remain safe and productive instead of either becoming a multi billion euro waste or a menace.

I'm all for wind and solar energy but preferably when:

1. Its effectiveness is competitive.
2. It becomes cheaper.

>>46219910
>being idealistic

Hindsight proved this statement true, what was I thinking?! That things could ever get better?! Hah! I'm such a retard.

>>46219937
Europe is not soviet union era Ukraine or Japan brah, nuclear powerplants aren't surrounded by many kilometers of radioactive desolation.

>>46219896
on preferential voting, you must rank every candidate (unless you want to tie people on last place)
on approval voting not voting and saying no is the same.

Of course approval voting has the problem where not voting because of lazines, or you didnt saw the candidate means you dont want his and that is not the case.
This could be fixed by this type of approval voting
To every candidate you vote if you want or not him.
If you say yes, he get +1 points and if you say no he gets -1. Not voting on one of those 2 choices gives +0 to the candidate

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>>46219927
>>46219985
That's the same thing Italians said about Berlusconi, and the explanation for why they voted for him

It didn't end well

>>46218865
> too old for 4chan

Dude oldfags are the aristocracy

>>46220168
No, but they CAN leak, and the estimated radius for any leak is...

You know what, you guys are too retarded to argue with.
You haven't looked anything up, all you want to say is that nuclear energy is good, and you want to keep saying it to each other until you climax in each other's mouths.

>>46220137
>Doesn't it work itself out naturally? The smarter, more powerful people generally marry people on the same standard.

You're going to have your work cut out for you, again, defining 'smarter'.

Basically - take a look at dog breeds and horse breeds.

If you haven't noticed, 'purebreds' are unhealthy as fuck. They look nice, maybe, if you get things just right. They're also super prone to disease, have weird issues, and often have mental problems.
Purebred horses will basically have a heart attack and freak the fuck out at the slightest provocation.

You can socially promote eugenics and try to have it work out, but you're gonna run into problems if you start trying to isolate 'good traits'.

>>46220137

Not really. Just because someone is rich and powerful doesn't mean they're superior. Look up the Hapsburgs. Some serious incest crippled a line that once controlled nearly the entirety of Europe.

Moreover, you never know when someone from a supposedly "lesser" group is going to win the genetic lottery and become the next Tesla.

>>46219349
Dice notation was developed by the community in late seveties but wasn't adopted by TSR until about a decade later

Rolled 3, 2 = 5 (2d12)

>>46220137
>Doesn't it work itself out naturally? The smarter, more powerful people generally marry people on the same standard.
And the less cool people marry people on their level still making up the same portion of the population even if that were to be true.
>In fact, the argument is that our 'safety net' is what keep retards alive and so on. If we just let those people die, we would have a generally superior population.
Nobody needs generally superior population if it means everyone has to live with not being able to fuck anybody without government's approval best case scenario. I doubt removing the less bright units would make science advance faster considering we will just have less people.
>Don't we do that, too? We let non-viable animals die or get turned into food, and we keep the prime breeding stock like stud bulls and stallions for seeding a bloodline.
Animals are simpler because you don't have to care about their race's well being at all and they are dumber than humans.

Who would even decide it?

>>46219996
>genetics doesn't real
>remember the 60 gorillion :)
Please end yourself.

>>46219981
Again, not exactly relevant, just being picky here. The one that went bust in 1986 was core #4. And cores #1,#2 and #3 were only shut down in 1996, 1991 and 2000 respectively (and #2 had a big fire in 1991. Them Urkanians just don't learn their safety protocols).

>>46219917
>At some point you have to stop making the excuse that "well the british showed up and started bossing people around" for people who largely fail to be decent human beings once free of the yoke of imperialism.

At some point you're going to have to accept that people who point at the negative consequences of Imperialism as it applies to the British Empire aren't saying that the places were amazing and lovely before they arrived, or that they're amazing and lovely now the Empire has dissolved. "They did bad things," isn't the same as "they did nothing good". Improved infrastructure can come about from the same organisation that brought you famines due to mismanagement. Modernisation can come from the same nation that went to war for the right to sell drugs to them.

>>46220093
Spoilers, purebreds are not actually better bloodlines. Nor are crops. They're incredibly weakened by our specific selective breeding and only survive due to our protection. What they are is better at that one specific single thing we wanted them to be better at, at the expense of any real viability. Some purebreds (specifically mostly pet animals) can barely survive even with our protection, but to be fair that's because people are incredibly retarded.

The concept of a guided breeding system isn't inherently bad or evil, but without a full and complete understanding of the genetic system to ensure you're not just breeding yourself into a glorious ubermensch that falls over dead because it turned out that retard gene you phased out also happened to be a disease resistance gene, it's a fool's undertaking.

>>46220137
>Doesn't it work itself out naturally? The smarter, more powerful people generally marry people on the same standard.

Political and economic power is not a genetic trait - it's inherited by legal and social means first and foremost and can be passed on to people who aren't even part of your family, no problem.

>>46218164
>Traveller, for one. Or Exalted. Pathfinder for sure.
The correct answer was "Eclipse Phase"
Blue Rose would also have been considered acceptable.

Have you tried AD&D in Birthright (Very traditionalist due to being in a camelot-esque setting), Planescape (Daily reminder that the Harmonium are Lawful Good even if they're jerks) or to a lesser extent Dark Sun? (Could go either way but mostly just brutal/survivalist)

>>46220194
>>46220213
tfw my university professor just yesterday told me about how the best, fastest horses literally bleed from they lungs every time they have to run really fast

>>46220194
Purebreed dogs are partly fucked because of breeding standards now being entirely superficial.

But to deny that selective breeding has resulted in healthier dogs with more favorable traits is to go against reality.

>>46220198
Nearly the entirety of Europe, all non-Brazillian parts of South America that were under European control (Of course they also owned Portugal for a bit there), all of Meso-America, and a good chunk of North America, along with a chunk of Africa, one of the largest East Indian possessions, a little bit of India, and some Chinese territories.

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>>46220191
>No, but they CAN leak, and the estimated radius for any leak is...

And a windmill can fall on someone and kill then. Yes there is a potential for danger, just like there is for coal or waterturbine powerplants, or putting one rock atop another, but nuclear power is not as dangerous as people think and it is pretty much the most cost efficient source of energy in existence.

Now what is wrong with making it even safer and more productive? Even from an environmental perspective its better to have one nuclear power plant then to have 100 miles of wilderness replaced with wind mills. Especially when the windmills still wont generate as much power as the nuclear power plant.

I desire a world where we are not dependant on limited quantity fuels such as gasoline, uranium, coal, etc. But green energy sources as they are right now cannot replace them, that is why I want to get the MOST out of as LITTLE as possible while said green energy sources are developed to become viable.

Better a nuclear power plant for 900 million euroes then five windmill fields for 800 million and buying electricity from a nuclear powerplant using country over the boarder for 500 million because of muh politics.

Economic policies should be based on cost-effectiveness ratios not popularity contests.

>>46220183
Dude came to power after the actual media blew the lid on the US-funded fascist secret society that had infiltrated pretty much all layers of poltical power.

At that point pretty much anything was better than what they had, but trained monkeys and talking parrots weren't on the ballot.

>>46220006
>and seems to me like it comes up with similar results to ranked choice.
You can rank people with approval
but you will have alot of guys tied on first place and alot of guys tied on second place.

>>46220138
you must decide how to do rank voting

Borda count? (candidates receive points based on their place on rank, one with most points win)

>>46218164
I don't think you know what communism is

>>46220248
>But to deny that selective breeding has resulted in healthier dogs with more favorable traits is to go against reality.
Only by your definition of favorable traits and health. Which means nothing at all.

>>46220256
That doesn't really explain why we was one, if not the, most important political figure for 20 years.

Also I wasn't arguing about the actual fact that he had been elected, just that the fact that he was "successful" doesn't mean anything. It just ended up with him manipulating everything for his interests

>>46220255
I'M NOT ARGUING ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF NUCLEAR POWER YOU FUCKING FUCKTARD.
I HAVE FUCKING STATED THIS, I HAVE NOT ARGUED THAT POINT.

I HAVE COMMENTED ONLY ON THE VERY DELIBERATE PLACEMENT OF A NUCLEAR REACTOR NEXT TO THE POPULATED CAPITAL OF ANOTHER NATION, WITHIN THE CALCULATED RADIUS OF A POTENTIAL LEAK, THEN SPENDING 30 YEARS TRYING TO CLOSE IT BECAUSE OF THE THREAT TO SURROUNDING SMALL VILLAGES.

YOU
FUCKING
RETARD

READ WHAT YOU RESPOND TO INSTEAD OF JUST CIRCLEJERKING ABOUT YOUR PREFERRED TYPE OF POWER.

YES I'M MAD.

>just woke up
>bait.txt has almost 300 replies
I mean, I'm literally /pol/, and I could see that this is bait.

>>46219808
>Well the newest Hunter book made a sidebar to tell you that you were weird if you though an alternative pronoun was bad.
As a writer, I just think they're bad because they are like giant speedbumps in whatever you're reading. They sound awful. I don't care if you're a demisexual, agendered, attack helicopterkin, that's fine, whatever. But there's nothing fucking wrong with the singular "they". It works perfectly for that.

>>46220255
>while said green energy sources are developed to become viable

I agree, but I'd hazard a guess that part of the problem is that it's going to cost quite a bit of money and political will to get green energy sources to be viable. If you're in the business of selling energy to people, the possibility of freely generated energy is a bit frightening, and you've got money to make sure the political will and money isn't forthcoming to develop green energy sources,

>>46219099
The idea that your side is superior is not as important as the idea that your side is being unfairly persecuted. White people who accept their superiority don't need to whine and play the victim, and they can even be sportsmanlike and help the less-advanced races catch up. That's not nearly as fun as playing the victim.

>>46220292
>STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS
>THE OP IS BAIT THEREFORE EVERYTHING ANYONE SAYS HERE IS STUPID
Fuck right off, faggot.

>>46220210
This.

>>46220281
No.

We've breed dogs with longer lifespans and less health problems than wolves, we've bred dogs that have better noses, run faster, are stronger, and do whatever else we want them to be.

The german shepherd, when it was bred, suffered from literally no health problems as a breed and its nose was unparalleled.

You may whinge about subjectivity, but we quite clearly created a superior dog for the purposes we needed the dog for.

>>46220289
Then calm down dummy. We were discussing the viability of nuclear energy vs green energy and its safety, not retarded cross border zoning mishaps.

>>46220292
It actually ended being a rather chill tread, until recently. Maybe it's because most american where sleeping so they couldn't post about the greatness of Drumpf

>>46218875
I think I've actually seen someone going on and on about how in his games women aren't allowed as players, as PCs and as NPCs because... reasons, I guess.
Though this is 4chan, so you can never tell if Pow's Law is in effect

>>46220056
what was your first clue? the big /tg/ at the top of the page?

>>46220321

NO YOU WEREN'T, BECAUSE YOU ONLY STARTED YOUR CIRCLEJERK IN RESPONSE TO MY POST, WHICH WAS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE YOU USED AS EXAMPLES OF GOOD USE OF NUCLEAR POWER ARE ACTING RETARDED WITH IT.

ALL you faggots have done is circlejerk about how much you love nuclear.
That's ALL you've done.

>>46219819
Better than being endorsed by a Klansman

I don't think there are very many GAMES with a preference for left or right.
There are however many SETTINGS that lean one way or the other.

There's a difference.

>>46220302

The two biggest problems are the fossil fuels industry, who don't want to give up their near monopoly on power generation, and the fact that all green energy sources are either inefficient, unreliable, cause ecological damage of their own (hydro specifically, but land use by wind and solar is also a concern), or have a large initial investment of energy to produce, and have to "pay off" that energy over the course of their lifetime.

And anyone with half a brain knows we need to be planning for the next 50-100 years of energy demand (since it's only going to go up as nations industrialize), rather than planning for the minimum we need right now.

So... there's really only one option right now.

>>46220198
The Habsburgs always were fugly, but I was under the impression that their german line wasn't as goddamn unhealty as the spanish one.

>>46220255
No technology takes of without a solid business model behind it managing the changeover and buffering its costs. Even nuclear energy reqired the Atoms for Peace-program before it took flight.

>>46220361
#Underwood2016

>>46220317
We've also bred shit ton of apparent failures and we only compare our successes when taking into account human environment.

>>46220361
Read the post again anon.

The point is sort of the exact opposite of what you think it is.

>>46220367
Not as big as you make it out to be.

>>46220137
>The smarter, more powerful people generally marry people on the same standard
Depends entirely on how society is structured. If money is all that matters, then no, your idea of "genetic superiority" won't matter one bit. History is fraught with random bullshit too, so even someone who is just great at everything genetically might be screwed over nonetheless.

Anyway, eugenics refer to stupid shit like measuring skull sizes in order to determine intellectual capacity, not selective breeding.

I'm all for eradicating genetic defects, but stem cell research is a lot more promising on that front than instigating some sort of retarded anarchist society where only the "strong" will get to have children.
The major issue is honestly that people who adhere to that view don't factor in the real-world consequences of even starting with it. They're naive and idealistic (ironically enough), because they don't see that people wouldn't just lie down and accept it. It's too far out. Even a complete narcissist with 100% faith in his genes supposed superiority would be anxious, because who knows what kind of standards the overlords decide on.

In short, eugenics is a pipe dream, on par with utopian communism.

>>46220345

Okay, we get it. The Nordic countries are full of incompetent boobs, just like everywhere else.

Yelling isn't accomplishing anything.

>>46220371
>one option
And that option is Janus.

Otherwise we have to resort to ABCs.

>>46220302
I agree that dislodging established energy sources will ultimately require compromises but that is a song for the future since green technology is still not there. Its being worked on eitherway and the switch will happen eventually but we are simply not at a point where bio, solar or wind energy can replace coal, oil and nuclear energy sources.

Pretending we already are and spending billions on it is silly though because once the actually viable versions come out everything already built will be useless.

>possibility of freely generated energy is a bit frightening

Nothing is for free, green energy power plants need to be upkeep all the same, repairs and replacements have to be made, energy needs to be transported, infrastructure needs to be built. Which is a multibillion industry perpetually sustainable industry in itself, so its not like there isn't something in it for the power companies already in existance. Rockefellers aren't thwirling their mustaches going muhawhawhaw lets sabotage green energy so we can be rich forever on our oil because they know its almost gone already, plus it would be neat to fuck over rivals that still depend on it.

My issue is that, as you said, it needs money and political will to get green energy to be viable, but instead RIGHT NOW its green energy exists for political will and money for them. Instead of, you know, supplying people with electricity, or any sense of freeing ourselves from limited quantity fuels. Which can come to sabotaging green energy completely.

>>46220406

Forgive me, but you'll have to tell me what it is or post a link. Apparently my googlefu is weak, and all I got was anti-fire systems (even though that's not what I entered into the search bar google! You had one job!).

>>46220345
>NO YOU WEREN'T

Yes I was, I just told you. Do you think I'm lying?

>>46220264
>you must decide how to do rank voting

Obviously not Instant-runoff voting because it doesn't even follow his own fucking logic:

1-People rank candidates on order.
2- If the one with most first place votes have more than 50% of the votes he win, if he doesn't:
3- Get the one that had least first place votes, this one is removed from the voting, and everyone that was below him go up one rank.
4Go back to 2


Anyway it doenst even follow his own logic, because according to it
Just selecting the candidate with most fist place votes is not enought to pick the candidate that must win.
Bust JUST picking the candidate with least votes is enought to pick the candidate that must lose

>>46220428
http://utopiatv.wikia.com/wiki/Janus

>>46220380
Most of the failures only started cropping up once we stopped using dogs for... well dog purposes, and started treating them as accessories. Basically in Europe this can be traced back to the fucking Kennel club.

Sick fucks.

>>46220376
>The Habsburgs always were fugly, but I was under the impression that their german line wasn't as goddamn unhealty as the spanish one.

It never reached the same levels, no, and as soon as it became Habsburg-Lorraine the incest stopped. (Apart from the occasional niece-uncle wedding of course)

>>46220446

Hah. Okay. Thanks for indulging me.

>>46218164
>Pathfinder

Pathfinder doesn't hide its gays in the closet and now and then, some designers come off as being pretty progressive in the forums, but the setting isn't some crazy leftwing utopia. First, the authors come as fairly skeptical about any big, expansive governments, and even Hermea - a pseudo-utopia project run by a frakking gold dragon - is heavily insinuated to be a lot less nice than officially let on. Most expansive states are at best inefficient (Taldor, Qadira) and at worst hellholes (Cheliax, Geb,Nidal, The one place they do have actual communism - Bachuan, aka Not-Vietnam - is crap to live in. In fact, they decided to make it militantly atheistic for no good in-setting reason (plenty of gods' dogmas could fit such a society), just to drive home the point that communism is bad, mkay?

On to religion, usually a good representataion of what goes where morally according to the system designers. One of the major LG gods is an archetypical paleoconservative (Erastil), being focused on the old values, family, community, etc and staunchly opposed to new fads or cultural changes. Two others - Iomedae and Torag - are also that to a point, focusing on issues such as bravery, honesty, military might, and hard work. Honest work, trade and financial services are also represented in the cult of Abadar, which is LN and generally portrayed as either neutral or the good guys in most of Paizo's work. On the more libertarian side of the spectrum, Desna, Cayden and even to a point Calistria represent ideas such as freedom and independence, while also being considered good or neutral.

So what makes you think that you CANNOT play a good, honest person with rightwing values and be considered "good" in Pathfinder, and what values exactly woudl get you in trouble?

>>46220446
Sterling so much of the population would just send us into post apocalyptic hell, considering there wouldn't be enough people to maintain currently existing infrastructure, and already rare professions would become almost unheard of.

>>46220405
IT APPARENTLY WAS NECESSARY FOR YOU TO GET THE FUCKING POINT.

>>46220472
Sterilizing hurr, autocorrect..

>>46220478

Actually, I was ignoring you until this point, because I didn't think it needed to be addressed. But here you are, shouting with all caps for attention. Happy? Are you enjoying your attention?

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>>46219839
>subreddit

>>46220472
Sterilization doesn't kill people. We don't need the majority of workers because the majority of work exists solely to sate self-indulgent consumerism. 5% of the over 6 billion people on this planet is far more than enough to serve as the basis for a sustainable, progressive society.

>>46220501
Oh fuck off, not one person here isn't also on reddit.

>>46220478
It wasn't necessary. You just resorted to it because people weren't agreeing with you fast enough. Chill out.

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>>46220512
Sadly.

>>46220512
Nice implying kid.

>>46220500
WHY YES I'M QUITE CONTENT.

IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING I WON'T BE SHAMED FOR USING THE ONLY COMMUNICATION STYLE THAT APPARENTLY WORKS ON YOU FUCKTARDS.

>>46220512
I'm not on reddit.

>>46220478
Its not our fault you construct sentences poorly.

>>46220451
The point is that society isn't based on "the better man gets children", and it never has been. Natural selection is retarded, but selective breeding won't work either, because people would oppose it. Would YOU prefer if someone were to tell you that you're genetic trash and should honestly just kill yourself for the betterment of everyone else? Would you accept the same if it happened to the woman you love and want to have children with?

Best option right now is gene therapy, and we've come pretty far. No reason to apply dog-breeding to humans (if it was even possible) at this point.

Lastly, dogs are easy to breed because we know which qualities we value and we don't give a shit about how they feel about it. For humans, this is a bit different. Stephen Hawking would probably have been sent to the ovens in a eugenics-based society.

>>46220528
The fact that none of you can apparently read, however, is your fault.

>>46220515
You mean people weren't reading the posts and instead saw "Reactor" and started masturbating.

>>46220524
...Your capslock key is stuck isn't it?

>>46220541
...
NO...
MAYBE...

IT'S BESIDES THE POINT.

>>46220523
>>46220525
>Lying about something so pointless

Why though?

>>46220534
Your statements here are predicated on the idea that a eugenics based society would kill off those it deems unsuitable for procreation.
This has not been the case for most of the countries that practised eugenics.

>>46219981
>And it's primary purpose was not for power, but for refining uranium for nuclear weapons.

This is actually a myth. RBMK reactors were designed as power plants first, specifically the cheapest possible power plants using parts already producible by current soviet industry. Plutonium production was a secondary function.

>>46220537
>The fact that none of you can apparently read, however, is your fault.

Not really because you brought up an irrelevant issue and have been capslocking about it for the past few posts like the drama queen you are. One country not having the sense to check what is next door over the border doesn't mean nuclear energy is more dangerous, which the rest of us were talking about. It just means some people need to be more observant on their zoning.

Yes putting a nuclear power plant next to a capital city isn't a good idea because of JUST TO BE SURE reasons, but neither is putting a pig farm next to an apartment house. Neither have anything to do with green vs nuclear energy sources and liberal-conservative politics. Which is why you are ultimately retarded.

>>46220537
No, you weren't reading their posts. You instead saw "Responsible nuclear energy" and started sperging out about your personal bugbear.

>>46220572
>I don't believe them.
>Since I'm always right, that means they're lying.

This is you, bub.

>>46220572

Not him, but let's put it another way:

Say you're in love with someone, and you want to have children with them (no matter your current feelings now, just for the sake of argument).

Would you a.) Like to be told you're genetic trash, and must be sterilized (or worse, have done against your will, without your consent, as it was done in both the U.S. and Germany).

Or b.) Be told that your partner is genetic trash and you cannot breed with her/him, and that they must be sterilized (or, they're just sterilized without their consent or yours in the guise of a routine medical checkup).

>>46217904
>stoning and raping women is ok when muslims do it because morality is relative :^)

>>46219061
>>46219088
It's none of that.

Right now, there is a poisonous climate within journalism and media, a very "you're either with us or against us" mentality that demands every game, book, or movie to either be left or to be attacked as bigoted, because they can spin anything from the white person standing in the center of the cover as being racist to the size of the font as being ableist.

Even the people who don't care or don't want to be involved have to offer lipservice, and that's largely what that paragraph is. Lipservice, so that if the harpies wanted to descend upon the game as being bigoted for not having all eight genders and rules to determine the inner race of your character, they can just point to that paragraph and say "Leave us alone."

It's spineless, but necessary, sort of like how in 2e they had to "remove" demons and devils in order to avoid being labeled as satanist, and all they really did is simply rename them.

>>46220596
You don't have a right to procreate. Making new humans is incredibly burdensome on society and the state. Reproduction should not be left in the hands of lust-filled apes.

Upwards of 99% of all people alive today should be irreversibly sterilized, the remaining less than 1% should offer genetic material that the state can use to synthesize new citizens who can be carried in compensated surrogate mothers until the artificial womb is perfected. The metric by which we determine whose genes are fit to pass on should be ordered like this:

Lack of congenital health defects>IQ score>race (weed out non-whites and non-Asians as a matter of course)>criminal record>standards of beauty (facial symmetry, height, complexion)

>>46220596
literally muh feels, the post

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>>46220630
Thats not how moral relativism works. In moral relativism people recognize that to those societies its considered most likely just.

Its still shit and should not be allowed regardless.

Moral relativism is realizing that My Moral Standards > evil faggots is universal to literally every society and civilization in every and any time, in your example stoning and raping women.

Which is why maybe laws should not be based on currently popular opinions on any given society. But that's harder then pointing fingers and going ebil. Thats why muslims stone women they suspect are unfilial, since such women are obviously evil and if they're actually innocent Allah will take them to Paradise anyway.

Okay, since /pol/ is here, I got a question. Most of the right-winger clubs here lambast the modern and decadent world that's permitted furries to exist or otherkin to exist or not enough mustard on hotdogs or whatever. It's pretty obvious they want a broad-scale revolutionary change. On the other hand, you also don't permit women, beta/cuck males, and minorities to enter the treehouse, and those are unavoidably going to be a majority of the world.

How do you propose getting most of the world to believe your philosophy when most of the world has no part in it, or is this just where the ethnic cleansings come in?

>>46220082
>Exalted IS very, very, very, very, very non-straight heavy though, regardless of anything else.
I would certainly say it is not Straight-centric in its general presentation, especially compared to most works of fiction out there. The setting basically assumes that cultures within it are stupidely diverse, and as such, considers the character's orientation to be completely irrelevant at the scale of the game's world. It does the same thing with gender, race, and any other potential source of discrimation.

The thing is, that doesn't mean the setting doesn't have discrimination. The whole point is that Creation is so vast, what's seen as perfectly fine in one country might very well be considered utter heresy somewhere else. Exalted is does not discriminate first and foremost as a matter of providing its players with means to tell stories about discrimination, in the same way it provides you with Ultimate Power in an attempt to have you tell stories about the consequences of Ultimate Power.

I find it to be the best possible case for representation in a work of fiction. It provides a picture of a world that is diverse and coherent, where all sorts of people get up to all sorts of things, and discriminate against each others not because "Being X is actually objectively wrong" but because "We think being X is actually wrong".

It can't be qualified as "leftist" because it is either apolicital or panpolitical. At best you can criticize it on a philosophical basis, but certainly not on a political one.

>>46220659

I agree with your first statement. No one has a right to procreate. The problem is that most are capable of it, and the people who'd like to be in charge of who gets to do it are the people I have zero confidence in.

My objection comes down to just that: I object to any one person or groups of persons having that sort of dictatorial power. There's no chance it won't be abused in some way.

>>46220507
>Sterilization doesn't kill people.

Lack of people will. Your 1% of humanity remaining that are all highly qualified and intelligent still wont be enough to keep buildings from collapsing a generation later, stop themselves from being killed by the 99% humanity fucked over or have diverse enough abilities and professions to make a progressive society possible, ultimately leading to the exact opposite, a severe fallback to simpler times where less people could still maintain civilization.

You wont have an utopistic society of thousands, you'll have a medieval one because even our current shitty societies require the millions of millions of people or retardedly shit quality to function.

>>46220168
>I'm all for wind and solar energy but preferably when:
>1. Its effectiveness is competitive.
>2. It becomes cheaper.
The problem with that is that we've been working on our fossil fuel technology for well over a century, so even if wind and solar are significantly better with sufficient development, they may have a hard time getting off the ground. It's sort of like if your group played some terrible edition of an RPG, but have tweaked it over the years so that it's workable. You'd ultimately be better off going with a better RPG, but you'd have to spend a decent bit of time and effort learning it in the first place. So you can't just look at initial cost. And, of course, most of the time people are looking at costs, they aren't properly factoring in the cost of pollution caused by fossil fuels.

But then you were talking about nuclear energy, which is both younger and cleaner, at least when everything goes right. But when shit goes wrong, it can go very wrong. And sure, you can say "not when you do things right", but anything that depends on people always doing things right is doomed to failure. Also, I'm a bit uncomfortable about radioactive waste that will be around long, long after our current nations have collapsed. We developed writing a bit over 5,000 years ago, since which time we've seen many civilizations rise and fall--from the first true empire under Sargon, through the Baylonians, Assyrians and Persians, the Ancient Greeks and the Romans through the medieval world to our contemporary nations--and you want to store waste that will last many times longer than this? That, to me, is problematic.

>>46220694
I consider myself part of the far left, a radical progressive with national socialist sympathies, but most people would probably identify my beliefs as part of the "right-wing" because they're mean, so I feel like I can comment here.

In all of history, every revolution ever carried out has been led and directed by an extreme minority, and that extreme minority is itself led by an extremely exclusive vanguard consisting of its ideologues. Nazis never constituted a majority of the German population, and among Nazi party members, there was never a majority who was cognizant of or certainly in favor of exterminating kikes.

Similarly, the Bolsheviks (meaning majority, it was a propagandic title in contrast to the actual majority "Mensheviks") of the Russian Revolution never constituted anything approaching a majority of Russian people or even Russian socialists. And yet Lenin and his crew were the ones making decisions that put millions to death.

The power of the majority is diluted to near nonexistence by the compulsion of the average ape to keep their head down and "make no trabble."

>>46220694
>How do you propose getting most of the world to believe your philosophy when most of the world has no part in it, or is this just where the ethnic cleansings come in?

>Expecting /pol/ to know anything aside from screaming HABBENING at everything that makes noon time news.

1. Jews
2. Degeneracy.
3. [Insert race]
4. [Insert religion]
5. Betas & Cucks

All of /pol/'s responses to EVERYTHING. Most faggots there couldn't even explain themselves if you've asked because they just parrot the narrative.

>>46220728

Modern reactors can generate power from the waste of the older reactors. Moreover, they can use old nuclear weapons material as fuel. Food for thought.

>>46220715
>abused
Well if by that you mean that Tyrones and Shanequahs and Karims are going to go extinct, then yes, I would expect so.

But I can scarcely imagine a eugenic regime that didn't offer a superior alternative to the status quo.

>>46220659
Lots of should, should, should in that post, literally nothing backing it up but one man's opinions. Also, your metrics are godawful. Why would you have race as a metric, for example, rather than having actual matters reflecting on fitness to reproduce? If you're right and some races are fitter than others, then that would reflect in the results. Or, for that matter, why would you add in standards of beauty?

>>46220715
Deciding who can procreate is authoritarian bullshit. Augmenting your embryo's genes (or merely choosing the best sperm) is a completely different story.

>>46220659
>IQ score
Worthless. All it proves is that intelligent people doing well in STEM tend to have reasonably high IQ but with no real correlation between importance of their achievements and how high they scored.
>race
Lmao. Why even consider it if you test intelligence and standards of beauty anyway. If some race is inferior they will be mostly filtered out without affecting their good genes.
>Lack of congenital health defects
Hawkings is dead isn't he?

Eugenics people are top retards.

>>46220728
>It's sort of like if your group played some terrible edition of an RPG, but have tweaked it over the years so that it's workable. You'd ultimately be better off going with a better RPG, but you'd have to spend a decent bit of time and effort learning it in the first place.

Oh I definitely think this will be a problem but I think we should worry about it when the possibility of it becomes an actual thing. Also, the difference is that the homebrew RPG WILL 100% disappear eventually no-matter how many fixes you apply to it.

>but anything that depends on people always doing things right is doomed to failure

Which is why the responsible part comes in.

>Also, I'm a bit uncomfortable about radioactive waste that will be around long, long after our current nations have collapsed.

Well two things, first radioactive "waste" is still a potent source of energy that can be reused. Second, ultimately if it comes to it, we could just shoot that shit into the sun (with some effort and a spectacular waste of money). Even if the whole planet were to be shot into the sun (ludicrous I know) it wouldn't upset it in the least so its not like we'd be polluting anything.

So I don't think nuclear waste is an issue since 1. It has its use 2. If we really wanted to we could get rid of it permanently without polluting the environment we live in.

>>46220757

Maybe. But then, what if someone say, wants to get rid of anyone with a trace of Irish DNA? That would certainly affect me, and I wouldn't like to be denied the option to procreate because I may change my mind one day (hopefully ectogenesis will finally be a thing).

>>46220769

I have no issue with augmentation. I don't see a problem with it.

>>46220764
Of course there is a lot of should, I'm making normative claims.

>Why would you have race as a metric
Because the differences between niggers and whites aren't strictly intelligence or fitness-related. The shape of the negro face and the nature of their hair doesn't have any bearing on their ability to procreate or even on their intelligence, but it is something I would like to have permanently removed from the gene pool all the same.

>why would you add in standards of beauty?
Because making everyone more attractive is a good thing. It's really pretty self evident.

>>46220786
>Worthless. All it proves is that intelligent people doing well in STEM
Wow, trigger a nerve there, gender studies femmeboy? I'm IQ146 and not a STEMfag, though, so I fail to see what you're trying to accomplish other than projecting your insecurities.

As far as achievement goes, it's not a consideration for genetic traits. Man should be bred smarter, and IQ does more than a good enough job of measuring that to trust in this instance.

>Hawkings
Is just one scientist. Individual scientific discoveries are not restricted to certain people. Facts are equally accessible to everyone. Hawkings should have been aborted.

>>46220834

I just want to point out that IQ tests were originally developed to determine what the French public school system needed to be teaching its children, now that there was a public education system.

The man who invented it was horrified when he found it was being used to gauge intelligence, because it tests for no such thing. It only tests book learning.

>>46220805
>Maybe. But then, what if someone say, wants to get rid of anyone with a trace of Irish DNA?
Listen here paddy, I'd gladly approve that measure on its own, but I'm confident enough IQ screening will handle it.
>That would certainly affect me, and I wouldn't like to be denied the option to procreate because I may change my mind one day (hopefully ectogenesis will finally be a thing).
You don't get to decide to procreate. No one should, not even the most genetically elite. Only the eugenic instrument of the state should make that determination.

Of course you can fuck whoever you want, paddy, but I'll be damned if you poison our future with your drunkards' blood.

>>46220861
> It only tests book learning.
You're a fucking idiot. Modern IQ tests do not measure knowledge.

>>46220659
This might interest you...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

>>46220863

Okay. I was willing to entertain your nonsense, but you're a fucking idiot, and I'm glad shitheels like you aren't in charge. I drink maybe once every couple of months. Being a teetotaler doesn't make you my superior.

>>46220834
>The shape of the negro face and the nature of their hair doesn't have any bearing on their ability to procreate or even on their intelligence, but it is something I would like to have permanently removed from the gene pool all the same.

What happens if the people that get to decide are negros and they want to get rid of whatever you look like?

You do realise you can't design a system like this and include your own biases in it, because if it were to be enacted by the people who oppose you, you are entirely fucked, right?

You do realise the only way to design a system that will not screw you over is to design a system in which you would be confortable existing no matter who you would be as a person in that hypothetical system (think all randomized traits, you have no idea who you will be or where you will sit in the social hierarchy), right?

>>46220896
I realized it was spouting malarkey when it posted >>46220659. Just ignore it, maybe it'll get bored and go away.

>>46220834
So you basically admit your standards are completely arbitrary and not based on any actual purpose, just on what you want to see... And this is an argument for eugenics how? Quite frankly, I think you've made the mother of all arguments against it - it won't be administered based on objectively measured standards, just the whims of the people creating it. Rather than improving humanity, it'll just ruin it.

>>46220889
I'm not an anti-natalist, I'm a progressive and a eugenicist. I don't want the human race to go extinct, I want it to be rationally managed.
>>46220896
It's pretty hilarious that you're taking time to reaffirm a stereotype in this supposed defense.
>>46220905
>What happens if the people that get to decide are negros and they want to get rid of whatever you look like?
Niggers do not have the capacity to make that happen and I'm not arguing from a universalist perspective. I'm making very specific claims about what should be done.
>You do realise you can't design a system like this and include your own biases in it, because if it were to be enacted by the people who oppose you, you are entirely fucked, right?
Again, why the fuck would you assume that I'm making some vague generic argument when I've detailed so many specifics?
>
You do realise the only way to design a system that will not screw you over is to design a system in which you would be confortable existing no matter who you would be as a person in that hypothetical system (think all randomized traits, you have no idea who you will be or where you will sit in the social hierarchy), right?
Within the context of liberal democracy I do consider myself mostly Rawlsian, but that's as a matter of convenience. And what is right is different from what is convenient.

In which party of the world the sun rose up to wake up this idiots that screw this almost unbelievably so seen the premise cool thread?

>>46220946

Well, I'm a Norman. That makes me inherently superior to you, so I advocate we get rid of whatever the hell you are.

Without my ancestors, Europe would be Muslim.