Space Marine vs. Jedi

Please, no.

40k fans are the worst humans alive. Their entire happiness depends on their setting being unbeatable, even though it's so weak compared to any setting that isn't eternally lost in a meaningless war where technological advancement is either stifled or simply irrelevant.

40k loses to everything, not simply because it's weak in ever manner that matters, but because it is poorly designed and retarded from every practical standpoint.

A space marine gets beaten by a jedi, beaten by a wizard, beaten by batman, beaten by a planeswalker, beaten by a smurf, beaten by a care bear, beaten by everyone and everything.

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>>46012430
What kind of ass Jedi would try to stop rocklets with his lightsaber? Pic related is pretty commonly shown as a Jedi power.

Jedi are equivalent to Psykers in the 40gay universe, and wield powers that 99/100 Space Marines simply can't do anything about. The only faction where the average member beats the Jedi is the Grey Knights - against everyone else, the Jedi should win 7/10.

>>46012550
The jedi can stop bullets this way?

>>46012550
>Pic related is pretty commonly shown as a Jedi power.
[Citation Needed]

>>46012622
It happened in the new movie with energy blast.

Projectile shouldn't be much harder.

>>46012601
Not in most cases. Tutiminus is a sort of Force Shield, it's a fairly high end force power some can develop. It's what Yoda used to block the Force Lightening in his battle with Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.

>>46012430
The Jedi can just use force kill if all else fails.

>>46012430
DARTH VADER WILL GIFT THE PEACE OF THE EMPEROR TO THE WEAK

>>46012699
>happened in the new movie with one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy as the man is a skywalker trained by a skywalker

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>>46012430

>>46013039
>most powerful force users in the galaxy
>gets a cap busted in him by Chewie, then struggles fighting a stormtrooper who'd never even seen a lightsaber before that day
>finally gets comprehensively wrecked by Mary Sue
lol no

>>46012805
>>46013039
>>46013193
Honestly, darth vader is pretty much the only guy who could have a fair man-to-man fight vs. a space marine, without it devolving into fluff cheese.

>>46013228
Actually, space marines are little bitches that get beaten routinely by the other 40k factions like they're fodder. Them being special at all requires devolving into fluff cheese.

Anyone who can actually shoot a gun can kill a Jedi.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBsNc_KM5MI

>>46013291
Anon, game mechanics are not canon. Are you so autistic that you actually think game balance matters in canon?

>>46013193
Kylo IS one of the most powerful force sensitives in the galaxy. Simply being a Skywalker means his midichlorians are above Yoda's level, and it's not like there's really anybody else when as far as we know, the only force sensitives left are Skywalkers (Luke, Leia, Kylo, most certainly Rey).

The average Jedi is that chucklefuck who got wasted in the Arena.

>>46013381
and this is why Legends > nucanon

>>46012430
no end this

>>46013474
Because it doesn't stroke Jedi peni enough?

>>46012430
... You made a SECOND thread for this bullshit?

Why do you have to inject your cancer into everything else?

>>46013501
No, because they abandoned decent villains like Thrawn in favour of lightsaber-tantrum Anakin 2.0

>>46013515
I wasn't the original OP tho.

>>46012430
WORSE. THAN. QUESTS.

>>46013544
I don't care. 40K is cancer and 40K crossover discussions are even worse. Kill yourself.

>>46013539
Thrawn is overrated as fuck.
Not to mention aesthetically terrible.

>>46013589
>is on the 40k containment board
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WHY IS THERE 40k REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>46013648
Is it though? I thought it was just /r9k/ but with robots who were interested in tabletop.

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>>46013622
>implying that white Grand Admiral uniform isn't baller

>>46013648
>40K containment board
>/tg/- Traditional Games

It may have been once, but no longer. Either way, 40K is an awful setting that SHOULDN'T BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. The fact this thread exists means you retards don't realize that.

>>46013730
>taking games seriously
back to /v/.

>>46013648
>calls it the 40k containment board

This myth again?

This is /tg/. Traditional Games. Not /40k/.
You pretending Moot gave a shit about "warhammer wednesday" is laughable, and you don't have a shred of proof beyond your exaggerated sense of anyone actually caring about your spam.
If anything, /tg/ could actually use a containment board for you 40k fags, because you literally poison everything you try to cross with your shit game series.

>>46012430
This is a shitty thread and I'm going to change it to something productive.

World-Building Thread:

>The planet is Earthlike but large patches of Magical Wasteland exist throughout.

>>46013762
>Taking games seriously
>Post literally says not to take it seriously

You're actually retarded aren't you?

>>46013840
read em and weep

>>46013807
>Monsters are a result of exposure to Magical radiation.

>>46013730
>/tg/- Traditional Games
>Not 40K containment board

>>46013730
>It may have been once

That was never the case, except in 40kfag headcanon.

>>46012430
Plasma is not just plasma, they cannot be compared.

>>46013730
>never be taken seriously

What are you, from 1990? 40K has been serious for at least a decade now.

>>46014009
And that's the problem. Serious 40K is just Autism of the highest caliber.

>>46013919
>plasma is not plasma
literally kill yourself, they both canonically refer to the same state of matter. The plasma cannons in wh40k specifically state hydrogen plasma.

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>>46012430
>No mention of the force
kek la famiglia

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>>46014037
>Serious 40K is just Autism of the highest caliber.
Explain?

>>46012430
Jedi are like inquisitors with psychic powers, and lighsabers are basically power weapons. 40k has stats for both, because it shamelessly stole them.

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Atleast put the jedi up against something reasonably similar.

Warlock would win anyhow.

>>46014037
>>46014136
Please, call back when some neckbeard has a 40k wedding.

>>46014149
>Jedi Knights
>As powerful as Inquisitors

You're pretty funny.

>>46012601
>>46012622
I remember using force push to knock aside incoming missiles in Jedi Knight 2.

DoomGuy wins.

>>46014009
No, you're still largely a joke. You just are too far up your own asses to hear everyone laughing at you.

I fell off the 40k wagon around the change to 3rd edition. That's how I choose to remember it, and it was awesome.

>>46014344
The only people who laugh at 40k are other retards who are into /tg/ and are essentially laughing at their own reflection.

>>46014233
>cites a non-canon game

What about five Halo Spartans vs 5 Space Marines from the Space Wolfs Chapter?

In a Jungle field?

>>46014519
1 Space Marine curbstomps tbqhfamilia.

>>46014412
In the wide world of /tg/, 40k is the bottom. No matter how retarded you might think a game might be, no matter how stupid or obnoxious you might want to say a fanbase is, nothing compares to how dumb 40k is.

It is the game that even other geeks laugh at for being for autistic manchildren.

>>46014009
>>46014412
>being able to take the Space Yiffs, Wardmarines, Centurion Babycarriers and Flying Boxes seriously
I don't know if I should envy or pity you.

>>46013589
>>46013730
>>46013779
>Shameless shit posting.
>Stop liking what I don't like.
>Says 40k is the cancer.

Please... just stop. If you don't like 40k, maybe don't open a thread with 40k in the title?

There are dozens of non-40k threads going right now. Go. Frolic. Be free.

>>46014599
>y-your autismo game is even worse than mine!

>>46014599
That's what you might like to think, but it's not true. We all occupy the same shit wheel and you're just laughing in the mirror.

>>46014630
I'm sorry you think /tg/ is your hugbox.

jedi are OP as fuck and according the new "canon" can stop fucking lasers with their minds. Jedi wins every time.

>>46014604
You don't have to take it all seriously. In anything you can find things you like or dislike.

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>>46014424
It's more canon that the the prequels and the sequels.

The Dark Forces games are even more canon than the original trilogy.

>>46014659
The games I play are nowhere near as retarded as the one where a group of men were sitting around their office, trying to figure out how to make their ugly models seem cool, and decided that the best way to make their 50% pauldron characters seem like badasses is for them to spit acid and eat brains.
I play retarded games, but fuck, that might be the very definition of retarded design right there.

>>46014746
>The games I play are nowhere near as retarded

Denial.

>>46013381
"Midichlorians" have been struck from the movies now anon
http://screenrant.com/star-wars-force-awakens-midi-chlorians/

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>>46014732
I wonder if The Force Unleashed is canon
Guy could literally pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky come the fuck on, he was a literal god

>>46014684
Vader blocks a blaster shot with his hand in Empire.

Really, Vader has to be a prototype for inquisitors. Look at him. A guy with strong psychic (force) abilities, in armor, carrying an energy sword, with a bunch of bionics, stalking around choking people as his emperor's personal trouble shooter? It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, obviously it's far weaker than a duck and a duck would wipe the floor with it.

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>>46012430
This has been debated to death

Better question, what would happen if Ghazghkulls WAAAGH appeared on the edge of the Star Wars Galaxy? Could Star Wars halt the Green tide?

>>46014836
Technically not any more.

Only Canon is the movies, the Clone Wars and Rebels shows, and the new Marvel Comics.

>>46014684
>lasers

Lolno. Blasters are not lasers.

>Jedi

Lol no. That's Kylo Ren.

When will people learn that just because a fucking Skywalker or Jedi Master does something, it doesn't mean that every force sensitive can do it? The best most Jedi Knights can do is push small objects around. Otherwise the "rescue" team wouldn't have been slaughtered on Geonosis. Or gunned down by Clones.

>>46014862
>Really, Vader has to be a prototype for inquisitors.

That would be Soloman Kane and pop culture Spanish Inquisition. Sword, psychic powers and bionic aren't a requirement for an Inquisitor.

Fans of anything I don't like are terrible people and are shit.

>>46014795
>http://screenrant.com/star-wars-force-awakens-midi-chlorians/
JJ Abrams does not decide what is and what is not canon. Only Disney does now.

>>46015007
They're frequently chosen options for an inquisitor in tabletop 40k.

>>46013515
Agreed, SW is an outdated piece of shit that should have been put down decades ago.

>>46015127
>People choosing a power sword on an Inquisitor

Haha.

>>46014925
Considering that they almost fucking lost a war against mentally retarded droids controlled by mentally retarded people I'd say they'd get steamrolled when faced with an actual threat

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>>46014519

>>46014795
You know, they could REALLY easily make it so midichhlorans are still in canon but don't really change all that much. Just say "They're microorganisms that tend to concentrate near high force areas, but can be killed of really easily if you eat a certain diet or something"

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>>46015230

>>46012430
I'll go for Space Marines as they mad op. The battle in the arena in the second movie had the Jedi being killed by droids in large numbers and only survived due to the clones.

Also, the Jedi could not win the war against cis and needed the clones to win and then they were killed by the clones after pretty easily.

Actually make this argument Jedi vs Clones, that's better to argue.

>>46012430
Who wins a Jedi or a Space Marine's weight in bees?

>>46015369
African or European bees?

African bees will fuck him up.

European bees... 60/40 in favour of the Jedi.

>>46015369
If the bees are angry? Probably the bees. Seriously, that would be a fuck load of bees.

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>>46015181
I have the model on the left. Power armor, chain sword, plasma pistol.

>>46015527
Chainsword is an even worse load out.
Inquisitors are only used for the useful psychic powers they can bring.

>>46015230
>>46015292
This is so embarassingly wrong, it's hard to imagine how much space marine cock the guy had to snort to imagine it.

Hell, the Spartan Shield alone puts them at such an advantage that it's embarrassing to even compare the two for a single sentence, rather than two retarded screencaps.

>>46015692
Play halo, sniper bullet takes shield out, no problem leaving them like a pussy.

Bolter bullet would fuck the Spartan's shit no problem.

>>46015692

I am sorry you're so buttmad about the fact that 40k exists and a diverse group of people love it. Please for your own health close this thread and go wank over whatever your favorite game is before your already overtaxed heart gives up on itself

>>46015757
That's funny that you think a bolter bullet is remotely close to a sniper bullet.

How did you end up telling your parents you were gay? Brought your "friend" over for Christmas, or are you still in the closet?

>>46015692
>spartan shield
>powerful
the equivalent of cultist autoguns broke through spartan shields, are you implying a SPESH MEHREEN couldn't?

>>46015692
Would you care to put effort into that assertion instead of completely disregarding a seemingly well-informed argument that takes up two screencaps, or are you just going to make yourself look like a fanboy?

>>46015848
>diverse group of people

How exactly is a group of idiots "diverse"?

>>46015866
nice projecting, bruh

>>46015848
No, keep it going, this is the same guy going fucking mental in the last thread about sw being great and that jedi beat all. Shitposting was mad hilarious.

>>46015912
Still in the closet then.

>>46015613
Stop min maxing for a minute. That was THE official GW inquisitor miniature when I started playing 40k. Power armor and a sword are perfectly legitimate options, even if it's not the strongest loadout in the current game.

>>46015866
Yo, the sniper fires 57 cal with small 4 bullet clip.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper_Rifle_System_99C-Series_2_Anti-Mat%C3%A9riel

But that bolter is an assault rifle that fires 75 cal. It got 30 bullets in the clip i think and its explosive too.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Boltgun

>>46015905

What a wonderful question, thank you for pointing out one of the basic issues underlying statistical analysis. You're actually right about something which is if you count everyone in a group as an idiot then by god that's not a diverse group. Now if you actually bothered to expand your horizon in the slightest you might see these people you hate as their own group of individuals with many different life experiences and perspectives which happen to coincide with 40K as a hobby. But that is quickly looking like a futile request to you.

>>46015692
Spartan shields can be busted by fuck regular ass guns. Also space marines can get shields themselves if they happen to be important enough.

>>46015692
Spartan shields are fucking jokes. Even in the books the shields on MJOLNER armor can be dropped with a full assault rifle magazine. Bolters will either one-shot or two-shot spartans as the kinetic energy of a bolt round + the explosive going off is easily in the single digit megajoules of energy released.

>>46013193
>Just killed his father and was emotionally raw, still processing the situation
>Just got blindsided from one of the most powerful small arms weapons in the galaxy, and he stood there and took it
>Proceed to still kick the stormtroopers ass despite suffering from a wound that has sent weaker men flying several feet, and only loses to Mary Sue because reasons.

By all means Kylo Ren is still a whiny piss baby, but he's a ridiculously powerful piss baby

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>>46015984
>Power armor and a sword are perfectly legitimate options

Never said they were not. But they're not standard inquisitor load out. You COULD have an Inquisitor who is very like Darth Vader, but that doesn't mean Darth Vader is the prototype for Inquisitors.

Look at this guy. A very early Inqusitor and Darth Vader he is not, quite the opposite if anything.

>>46016118
>>46016247
Do you know anything about regenerating shields vs. nonregenerating shields?

>>46016475
I thought shields in Halo did regen after they didn't get shot for a while. A while a Marine isn't going to give.

>>46016092
>group of individuals with many different life experiences and perspectives which happen to coincide with 40K as a hobby
And therefore idiots.

>>46016475
Yes... and that doesn't change the fact that the shields will pop and fail with a couple shots, and the next shot will instantly kill the Spartan. All a Space Marine needs against a Spartan is to burst fire his bolter.

>>46016404
First of all, he's holding a chainsword.

But my point was, you could essentially put a Vader mini on the table, stat him as an psi-inquisitor, and roll dice against a space marine. That was the original question, and I think he'd do pretty well.

>>46016404
There was an Inquisitor called Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau in Rogue Trader if I remember correctly which was cool three references in one.

Miss the old Rogue Trader days, the cheesy 80s vibe was decent.

>>46016695
Duh. Who do we know called Obiwan, again? What was he?

>>46016716
Well, Star Wars of course. Come on man, know your references; it's Obi-Wan Kenobi.

>>46016856
So the original inquisitor example was named after one of the original Jedi. The link's pretty clear, no?

Depends on the specific Jedi, or whoever is writing them.

Sometimes, generic Jedi can be beaten up by 1 regular human (or alien that's as strong as one) who had bad ass training, other times Joe the Jedi can engage a platoon of not Navy Seals with ease.

As for Spartans, physically a Marine and a Spartan II are pretty close, the Marine is stronger and more resilient. The biggest and most important difference is equipment.

The Spartans armor is not bullet proof, take a assault rifle and spray a Spartan with a clip, and after you down their shields, they'll be hurting. Spray a Space Marine with bullets and...they'll fail to penetrate the armor, even if you hit between the joints or in the eye socket, those things are still pretty sturdy too. But the most important equipment difference is the weapons, because the Imperium has the commons sense to give their super soldiers weapons beyond that of the average infantry trooper, where as the damage output of a Spartan squad and a regular UNSC marine at range is exactly the same.

There is no weapon in the Space Marines arsenal the Spartan can take sustained fire from, where as the Spartans are going to have to go to heavy weapons to even consider putting the hurt on the marines.

>>46016540
A while that the space marine won't have a choice about. Spartans are faster and more mobile.

>>46012430
A decent Psyker would take a nice wee shit on a Jedi.

>>46016965
Clearly you've never heard of the 200 MPH Blood Angel then.

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>>46016040
>clip
MAGAZINE. For fucks sake anon you can't expect me or any other anon to jump here from /k/ and not lose their shit at this. It's even in both wikis you posted.

Anyway.
>A Jedi's first response to blaster fire is to put their lightsaber in the beam's path. This is jedi 101: dealing with blasters. They're trained in this extensively. It's second nature.
>Bolter effectively shoots explosive anti-tank rounds that will explode on contact and turn anything within a 1 meter radius into hamburger

A Space Marine's first response is to shoot. A Jedi's first response to being shot is to use the lightsaber. It's not so much about skill, it's that the Jedi are trained all their life to use to use a defensive technique that quickly and easily converts them into hamburger at the beginning of a fight against a space marine.

>>46016900
He was also named after Sherlock Holmes and Inspector Clousseau.

>>46016965
Space marines are hardly sluggish. They keep up with Eldar after all. They may not have the full range of motion that a Spartan does, but that's because they actually have armor.

>>46016965
Not really, Talos, while injured managed to run 80 km per hour in a non-straight line, and are not that rarely described as being able to perceive bullets and react to them.

Ignore the DoW cutscenes, Marines are actually fucking fast, the term used is "Transhuman terror", no one expects anything that large and bulky to move so super-humanly fast, and it fucking scares the shit out of regular humans.

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>>46016998
>converts them into hamburger

>>46016040
CLIP!
IT IS NOT FUCKING CLIP! IT IS A MAGAZINE! YOU LOAD AMMUNITION DIRECTLY TO MAGAZINE OR YOU USE STRIPPER CLIP TO LOAD YOUR WEAPONS FIXED MAGAZINE! AND YOU DO NOT CALL THE AMMUNITION BULLETS, YOU CALL THEM CARTRIDGES. CARTRIDGE CONTAINS CASING WHICH HAS PRIMER TO IGNITE THE POWDER WHICH PUSHES THE BULLET!!!

AND ASSAULT RIFLE IS NOT WEAPON CATEGORY!! GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT YOU COMMIE PIECE OF FAGGOT SHIT!!!

>>46016965
Space Marines can move faster than the human eye can follow. All that muscle helps them go fast.

>>46016900
Yes, of course, it's a nice reference. What are you trying to say?

Every jedi killing thread must have this linked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus

>>46017101
That a Jedi can be adequately represented in 40k by inquisitor stats, allowing them to be compared with space marines very easily.

>>46017178
As I said before, Jedi aren't exactly consistently portrayed, sometimes super badass regular dudes can humiliate generic Jedi and keep up with top tier Jedi, other times generic Jedi are able to face off against Companies and win.

>>46017178
Jedi's are human though, not superhumans. Same as Inquistors.

Also, it's only a reference to the detective and covert work of Jedi like Obi-Wan when he is sneaking round the death star. That's why you have Sherlock and Clousseau in the name as well.

Need to read the rest of the Sherlock Holmes novels actually.

>>46017110
Every AdMech character I've ever roleplayed has actually been him.

I am unashamed.

And unrepentant.

>>46017220
Something similar may be said of space marines.

>>46017276
Admittedly yes, but I honestly see Marines portrayed fairly consistently in comparison to Jedi, I haven't seen anything close for the marines to when a fairly small group of small time Jedi managed to send a Star Destroyer at FTL speeds throughout the galaxy through sheer telekinesis because the author cannot into physics.

>>46017256
So you have a character with roughly the powers of a Jedi, the social role of a detective or policeman, and a reminder that we're not to take any of this too seriously.

>>46015692
>Punch shield once
>Shield is now gone

>>46017369
-insert obligatory One Punch reference here-

>>46017353
I don't know, probably. Inquistors can a wide variety on that they are. They are more than just detectives or policemen. The Adeptus Arbites have that role.

They're both in the shadows watching though.

>>46016695

I'm glad that dumb shit is no longer canon.

>>46013727
I never liked that uniform because it, like every other all-white uniform, requires that you never lean against a counter or sit down. How does the man eat a rack of ribs in that uniform? How does he drink coffee without worrying about fucking up his pristine uniform?

>>46018577
filth and water repelling coatings.

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>>46015527

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>>46012430
Depends.

You ass.

The kinds of Jedi that got assraped in the prequels? They'd lose to DoW-cutscene-level Astartes.

A main character Jedi? Would trash entire squads.

A MC Jedi versus a named Librarian? WHO GIVES A SHIT?!

>>46018814
No kidding. That's not my mini, just the only pic I could find in a quick Google search.

>>46012791
Jedi don't kill, if avoidable.

>>46012430
Obviously a jedi would beat an average space marine. Average space marines are superhumanly strong and fast; so are jedi. Jedis. Anyway. In addition to that, the jedi has force superpowers, known in the 40k universe as psyker powers. These would make the difference. The power armor would not, plasma weapons are fairly effective against power armor.

A more decent comparison would be a jedi vs a space marine librarian. In fact I think that a librarian without power armor and wielding a force sword would be roughly the same as a jedi.

>>46019357
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the average jedi could beat the average space marine. The ceramite and adamantite of their wargear is most likely able to resist lightsabers fairly well and their sheer bulk is going to make it tough for anyone not strong in the force to push them around. Plus Space marines can carry weapons that would be very unpleasant for a jedi to fight against.

>>46015866
>That's funny that you think a bolter bullet is remotely close to a sniper bullet.

Stalker Bolter.

Scout sniper rifle.

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>>46013374

>>46018873
>named Jedi vs nameless Marine(s)
Make it fair, nigga. Get a named Marine, say, Dante or Azrael.

>>46019943
>named marines

That's not even worth discussing, they're so damn OP.

Probably the only character strong enough to rival those are PCs like Starkiller or Darth Revan, and only by using shit like the force or the starforge, rather than lightsaber combat.

We're talking space marines who survive planets being blown up and killing literal gods unless you pick one of the pussies with no achievements like Korvydae or Pedro Kantor. But then again why would you pick the strongest named Jedi and the weakest named marines?

>>46020052
This whole thread is not making the Jedi look very good.

nameless Jedi vs nameless Space Marine
>This is some bullshit, the Space marine is so fucking OP we need named Jedi for this comparison.

Named Jedi vs Named Space Marine
>This is some bullshit, that Space Marine is so fucking OP we need special snowflake named Jedi for this comparison.

Special Snowflake Jedi vs Special Snowflake Space Marine
>This is some bullshit, both are protected by plot armor.

>>46020212

Well that should have been obvious before the thread even began. Jedi are just humans with force powers and enhanced agility after all. They still die like a human. Space Marines are ridiculous power wank and repeatedly described as gods of war or demi-gods.

If you want a good fight where the marine might actually lose try someone like Kratos or Superman or a psionic who doesn't have to STRAIN to lift a space ship. If you can crush mountains with your mind you can probably kill a space marine.

A standard marine vs a standard run a of the mill jedi, the marine would lose nearly everytime. Now I'm positive there are marines that would kill a jedi fairly easily, and vice versa. You can't really compare the two imo, maybe a Librarian vs Jedi

>>46020506
Standard Jedi are shit though >>46013374
is a Jedi master and he got ganked by a guy with a pistol at close range.

>>46020506

A standard jedi couldn't even lift a heavy marine in armor with the force. His force push and pulls would barely budge the marine who is used to being tossed into tanks and off buildings.

A MARINE CAN RIP THE HATCHES OFF TANKS WITH HIS BARE HANDS.

>>46012538
Marry me.

Yes homo.

>>46020506
>BS0 WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 Ld7 6+, Power Sword, Mastery Level 1 Psyker with no good spells
>vs.
>BS4 WS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 Ld8 3+ Bolter, Bolt Pistol

Even on the tabletop you would lose and marines are dogshit chumps who die like flies on the tabletop.

>>46020506
See >>46016998
They're training gets them killed, and the moment they stop listening to their training and defy convention they jump into named & special snowflake territory.

>>46019357
Really bad ass regular people can defeat generic Jedi handily, and even hang with high end ones with the right conditions.

>>46020971
That art is incredible. High respect to the artist.

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>>46020212
>>46020310
I don't understand why you think that what is essentially a small, semi-decent tank can beat a jedi.

Space Marines, for all the silly wank people try to spew about them, are outclassed by vehicles in their own setting. Tanks can easily kill scores of them, and even chucklemonkeys on space motorcycles make space marines look like... well, specialized infantry, rather than "gods of war."

And, in the Star Wars universe, a character that's is substantially weaker than the Jedi managed to single-handedly not only take down a tank, but the scores of battle droids surrounding it in a matter of seconds.

That's right, Space Marines are out classed by Jar Jar Binks. And it's all completely canon.
You can deposit your tears in any available receptacle and mail them to George Lucas now.

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>>46021339
>compares space marines to rogerroger battledroids
>expects to be taken seriously

>>46021425
No, I'm saying a tank outclasses a space marine, you dummy. Pay attention.

>>46021339

You fail to realize 40k vehicles are better than regular military vehicles. Just because the 80's British writers can't into military specs doesn't make it any less true. They have adamantium armor and atomic vaporizing lasers and shit. They're not just some metal armor and tank guns.

>>46021507
At what point did I fail to realize that?
Hell, I'm very open to entertain that a baneblade or fellblade or stormblade or bladeblade might be more powerful than a Trade Federation Tank. That's very likely, since the AAT battle tank is sort of dorky.

But a AAT battle tank is still a tank, which outclasses a space marine quite considerably in terms of armor, armament, and the like.

>>46021603
>But a AAT battle tank is still a tank, which outclasses a space marine quite considerably in terms of armor, armament, and the like.

It's a hover tank.

Space Marines have survived being stepped on by TITANS, while in terminator armor.

The 6E C:SM codex fluff entry for the Sternguard talk about how they run into a Leman Russ that aims its battle cannon at them, and all they do is hunker down and tuck their chins into their shoulders to protect their optic lenses and none of them take any damage other than broken bones or bruises from the shot.

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>>46021603

>>46019135
against a Marine the Jedi will learn soon enough its kill or be killed. If its the first encounter between the factions and they no nothing about each other, Marine could win just because of this though.

>>46021681
What I really don't understand is how you expect to marry that sort of fluff with the game that leaves space marines as swiss cheese before even a squad of cock-eyed orks wielding pistols made out of duct tape and hope.

It seems like that fluff entry is largely just the sort of myth people spread in universe to try and make space marines seem larger than life in hopes of instilling fear and respect, when at the end of the day they've actually not really anything more special then men in good armor, especially judging by their comparatively pathetic stats. If anything, looking at the stats, the numerical evaluation of the units in a quantified system used for comparison and evaluation, Space Marines simply can't be married to any fluff that describes them as anything more impressive than substandard heavy infantry.

On the reverse side, Jedi in various games are often so ridiculous that they make Dynasty Warriors seem sensible.

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>>46021892

>>46021892
Or, orrrrr

You're being an autistic fucking retard who doesn't realize that games have nothing to do with the "truth" of the fiction, any more than battlefront or KOTOR has to do with how Star Wars "works". RPG's and wargame mechanics aren't canon you fucking halfwit, they're abstractions so this thing called a GAME can exist.

Please don't tell me you honestly think that Spartans die from single punches or Darth Vader would get bitchslapped by a couple Storm Troopers with heavy cannons in the miniatures game.


What the fuck is with autistis who don't understand the abstraction between written fluff and rules for a game? Do they just not understand the meaning of the word "game"?

>>46021987
>RPG's and wargame mechanics aren't canon you fucking halfwit, they're abstractions so this thing called a GAME can exist.

See, that's funny, because in just about every other game that originated as a game, the canon stats are the final qualifier when used for comparisons. Stories have all sorts of weird things in play, like luck and plot armor, but when you want to compare the raw character vs. another, you take a look at their stats. You can even say that's the purpose of stats in the first place.

Space Marines, for all the fluff surrounding them, are nothing special. What I don't understand is why you think that telling me how awesome a Space Marine in a book might be when he gets wrecked by similarly costed units in the game.

I get it, that you want to pretend that you can ignore how relatively pathetic space marines are in the actual game so you can instead focus on the vastly more ridiculous, nonsensical, and inconsistent fluff that seems to have been written by authors who were not really interested in doing anything except making the space marines seem impressive, but when faced with the official statistical representation of the units, they're just not anywhere near the expectations that different authors seem to be trying to create.

I understand that the stats are an abstraction, and that they need to be, but we're certainly not talking about a space marine taking down a Leman Russ.

>>46022289
Game Stats mean nothing in anything and anybody who thinks they mean anything outside of the game needs to be slapped. It's the same kind of logic like deciding how a real life tank battle would go because of the stats a Panzer III and a Sherman have in Flames of War.

Especially when 40k is constantly mutating non-stop in both fluff and rules, and the two never being related in the first place. Plus there is no statement that says the game mechanics have anything to do with canon. Only that everything is canon, but New > Old with contradictions, and the idea that fluff is propaganda and you get to choose your own headcanon is actually misinterpretation of statements from the Black Library.

Also, FFG stats are even worse than GW's, but for opposite reasons.

>>46022440
>It's the same kind of logic like deciding how a real life tank battle would go because of the stats a Panzer III and a Sherman have in Flames of War.

Hardly. Because there's a better qualifier (real world comparison). Since that doesn't exist in 40k, we go to the next best thing, the stats.

Basically, it's the thing where if two 40k players sit down, and one says to the other "My army is stronger than yours", the other can say "OK, let's see if that's the case." They then play, and one guy shows that his collection of units are stronger. If the losing player were to say something along the lines of "ACTUALLY, according to the fluff, a single one of my space marines would have stomped your entire army in," the other player is fully in their rights to say "You're a fag, fuck off."

And, that's sort of what I'm telling you.

>>46022550
>And, that's sort of what I'm telling you.

You're wrong though.

>>46022550
Except the marine player is completely right. Game stats aren't canon, and never have been.

>>46022550
The game doesn't represent the setting, if what you said were truth then jedis are way more weaker than clones taking battlefront 2 to account, I killed named characters with an upgraded blaster.

>>46022550
>Hardly. Because there's a better qualifier (real world comparison).

There's a better qualifer for marine stats too: the lore.

Terminators are suits literally built to walk into plasma reactors. Yet plasma weapons pierce their armor in the rules.

>>46015692
>muh Shield

Its only good at stopping bullets, even then it drops fucking quick with continued fire, any melee attack would bounce off but leave the Spartan very exposed

>>46012430

Not only did you make this terrible thread once, you felt the need to make it a second time? You needed another 400 posts to be told the guy that remove the other dude's weapons from the other side of the room while tossing him like a frisbee has the advantage? 40k is one of the most obnoxiously childish fanbases in sci fi and marine-fags are the worst subset of that fanbase.

>>46022665
>>46022989
>>46023535
>>46023801
Basically, you guys are saying that the game, the official and original game that the lore is built around, is utterly meaningless and only serves as a distraction and detraction from the only truth you accept. The fluff and mechanics are irreconcilable, and to love one must mean to hate the other.
In short, by your own admission, you're telling me that 40k is terrible and both the game and lore is poorly designed, and that I need never to consider the opinion of a 40k player as anything more than that of a child's, dismissable and irrelevant.

You can tell me that X in 40k can beat Y in anything else. All that need to be said is "It's from a poorly designed joke game with nonsensical and inconsistent lore with no appreciative scale or frame of reference. Bugs Bunny could beat X with his eyes closed on his way to Albuquerque."

>>46015866
Bolters are basically brute shots that shoot rounds that travel faster and have a magazine larger than five.

Spartans use 7.62x51mm NATO.

There is no fucking comparison here.

>>46023968
>Basically, you guys are saying that the game, the official and original game that the lore is built around

The lore came first, moron.

But we all already knew you didn't know shit about 40k to begin with.

>>46017004

>They keep up with Eldar after all

They don't though.

>>46024018

Eldar are superhumanly fast and have the same initiative as space marines. Space Marines are faster than fast humans. The best space marine fighters can reach I5. Primarchs can reach I6 and I7.

>>46023968
So I guess in every original FPS setting, people can die if you shot them in the foot over and over again, and bullets don't actually penetrate, but rather vanish upon impact and just magically hurt whatever they hit.

Because as we all know, games can simulate real life just as well as written fiction!

>>46024049

>have the same initiative as space marines

They don't though. Nigga, have you looked at a codex before? One's I5 and fleet and the other isn't.

>>46024229
>hurr durr, extreme circumstances and minor niggling issues!

The rules are supposed to serve as an abstraction, but there's supposed to be a certain level or representation, otherwise it's completely arbitrary.

You're standing at the point where you have to either say the rules are meaningless, or to accept the the rules are somewhat reflective of the 40k universe.
Because, if there's even a remote connection between the lore and the mechanics, the slightest relation between the two, space marines are pathetic.

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>>46012430
That's cool and all, but could anyone actually stop a Replicator invasion and do more than slow it down? Once they eat Necron tech it's already game over.

>>46024319
The rules do somewhat vaguely represent the 40k universe, that's why Marines have a higher strength score the regular guardsmen and the likes. But it can't give a perfectly accurate representation because if it was fluff accurate, then anyone not playing Marines would have to buy hundreds of models to match a marines 5 man squad and no one would play the game because that's retarded.

And anyone that's not retarded like you can clearly see why something like literature that has no restrictions in what it can portray over-rides game rules, which are awful at showing a universe, on representation.

>>46024319
Except no, we don't. There can be a complete distinction between rules and fluff to facilitate the mutating nature of the game balance. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what's happening. On one hand the Astartes are doing marginally well as soldiers in the TT, on the other they're murdering virtually anything that's not Eldar in 1 on 1 and performing pretty atrocious feats across the board.

You're literally ignoring what's right in front of you because it doesn't conform to how you think it should be.

>>46012538
I'm surprised you are able to type that much with a stick that far up your ass.

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>>46024239
>Nigga, have you looked at a codex before?
>The best space marine fighters can reach I5
But he's wrong anyways, the best space marine fighters can reach I7.

Granted they can't hit I8 like exarchs or I10 like the avatar, but marines are pretty quick.

>>46024434
>literature that has no restrictions

Outside of being asked to maintain the suspension of disbelief, of course.

Let's take the space marine getting hit by a tank round, and only having to "tuck in their chin" to avoid any serious damage. By raw physics and the semi-fluid nature of the brain, a space marine getting hit by anything more impressive than a sledge hammer would be knocked out from the compression of his brain against his own skull, the classic concussion. There's simply no way to prevent this without making the brain a lump of solid metal in the skull.

Now, the game doesn't need to explain why this doesn't happen, because it doesn't happen in the game. Space Marines get hit by small round fire, and they get killed at the rate you you would expect a person in extremely good armor to get killed at when facing a bullet storm.

So, we've got the game, which has impressive but not unstoppable units that reflect aspects of the lore (such as the variety of bodily enhancements that a space marine goes through) in comparatively cohesive manner, and then we have the extremes of the lore, which profess feats that are silly and largely rely on the reader to not ask the simple questions which would shatter the suspension of disbelief required.

Why do these vs things always have to involve 40k?

The argument devolves into
>40k wins because *long list of fluff powers*
>*insert opponent* wins because *long list of reasons*
>the autists complaining that 40k exists and people like it because they have nothing else to do other than bait

40k is the dullest thing to do a VS on mostly because the entire premise of 40k is to be ridiculously OP and rule of cool everything.


Why don't we have something like 1 Mandalorian vs 1 Spartan II or someshit. More often?

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>>46020624

>>46024820
>Why don't we have something like 1 Mandalorian vs 1 Spartan II or someshit. More often?
because neither are distinctly tabletop characters?

I bet vidya/star wars autists argue about that shit all the time. But /tg/ is where tabletop autists whine about space marines.

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>>46024855
....I mean you right.

>>46024797
Notice how the feat refers to a "they," and not an individual, even though only a single shot was fired. Given that they were pretty explicitly covering their optics, I imagine it wasn't actually a direct hit and they were just minimising damage from all the nasty secondary effects of such a force-driven projectile.

That being said, there is a pretty cohesive idea of approximately how tough Power Armour is in fluff, capable of completely ignoring the likes of standard chemical-propellant firearms and taking large, but often not crippling amounts of damage from more dedicated anti-materiel weapons on the plates.

The TT and fluff aren't really that representative of each other, though, and Astartes are by far the worst exception because they have to let these 1-million strong ridiculously OTT supersoldiers be playable in a wargame that runs off D6. You can't exactly buff the Astartes up to being capable of killing many squads of Guardsmen alone and still retain a solid base for an army.

>>46024820
I think the major issue is the arrogance of the 40k fans who think their little pet universe is even close to "over the top", when it all just boils down to big numbers being spent in all the most useless directions. All this, with space marines as the centerpiece of "most overrated force who's fans think are invincible but die routinely to mook fire." 40k is a compartively weak setting in the grand scheme of science fiction, largely because it just relies on scaling things up rather than expanding what can be done.

40k is the group of rednecks stacking dynamite in a pile, acting like they've got the biggest bomb in the world, while everyone else is building nukes that are 1/100th the size of the pile but 100 times more powerful.

>>46024797
I don't know who lied to you about Marines tanking tank cannon rounds, the most marines tank are Auto-cannon equivalents if they're just wearing just regular power armor with no shields.

And I don't see why unrealistic things break suspension of disbelief, 40k marines are fantastical super humans in fantastical power armor, what they can do doesn't have to be realistic, just believable, and a super human clad in power armor not gong down to a concussion via sledge hammer to the head is easily believable.

>>46025023
Yes but the rednecks are having fun with their bomb right?

Isn't that what 40k is meant to be? Mind numbing power fantasy fun?

That's what 40k is to me anyway.

>>46025023
Now the Imperium might not be able to handle a great deal of the mid-tier fictions that well, but you clearly don't know too much about the actual high-end of the spectrum if you're considering the entire universe weak and believing it all to be scale-based.

Necrontyr are a particularly good example, capable of travelling backwards in time in isolated circumstances, repairing themselves from almost total annihilation while simultaneously retreating to another, uninhabited dimension as to be undisturbed, and the Celestial Orrery, with the capability to detonate any sun in the galaxy with the flick of a holo-screen.

>>46024820
There are plenty of sites that involve dedicated versus discussions that aren't limited to having to be vaguely related to TT or TT tropes, Spacebattles, Naruto Outskirts Battledome, comcvine, go to one of those sites or find another one and you'll be free to discuss which one of your fictional combatants can beat which fictional combatant without restricting yourself to whom you can pick.

>>46017343
A salamander once destroyed a voidship with mindbullets he gained from consuming old gene-seed.

>>46025023
>40k is a compartively weak setting in the grand scheme of science fiction
Right. And most video games have even weaker settings.

This doesn't say anything about the relative quality of either, but it seems to piss off people like you so I guess it's alright.

>>46025171
Wasn't that specifically a psyker, which can scale up much farther then marines go?

>>46025171
No, we don't talk about that terrible novel

>>46012430
Ugh, we didn't need two of these

Jedi beats Space Marine, is beaten by Librarian

>>46025171
>that novel

That shit was dreadful mate.

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>all these people buying into the 40k hate bait

Mfw

>>46025073
What stops their brain from impacting against their skull? I'll let you go ahead and say a sledgehammer won't do it, but what about simple small arms fire? What stops a bullet that impacts their helmet from transferring the comparatively small amount of force required to compress their malleable brain against their skull and force a blackout?

If there's no explanation, is it really too much to assume that the statistics and lore that corroborate with the canon augmentation and design specifications of the human and armor, rather than superseding/exaggerating what those augmentations/design would be capable of, would be the lore best suited to use as an example?

It's sort of why Disney said "Fuck the EU", because bad writers have a habit of stepping well beyond the boundaries of understanding the limits of what certain things can do. It's also why comic book heroes gain a hundred powers under the worst authors, while are forced to contend with a limited arsenal under the best.

What stops their brain? If it's nothing, we're going to have to follow the lore that place the space marines as good, but hardly unstoppable juggernauts that stroll through planets unchallenged. Even stone age tech is more than enough to induce a concussion under the right circumstances.

Or, is their a miraculous bit of lore that gives space marines a latticework of a metal framework inside their skulls to prevent their brains from smashing against themselves?

>>46025393
>is their a miraculous bit of lore that gives space marines a latticework of a metal framework inside their skulls to prevent their brains from smashing against themselves?
yeah, the ossmodula

It's actually ceramics rather than metal, though. Space marine bones are magic.

>>46025393
Space Marines have a genetic modification that adds incredible bone strength and density.

And IIRC they also receive super body cells to help combat against going unconscious.

>>46025393
Their entire biology is overhauled during the augmentation process from their nervous systems to their bones, not to mention their instant regeneration of flesh with scar tissue and clotting to seal any wound. Considering that main method of space marine transport however is using a drop pod which impacts the ground at terminal velocity with all the marines inside just walking the impact off, they certainly don't seem to give a shit about concussions at all.

>>46025373
I'm not buying into it, and generally the people who bait are sad. It's the classic "HUR DUR I WUZ TROLLING" response. Either the baiters are honest to god autistic and actually believe what they type, or they suffer from some other social disorder that compels them to constantly post such bait in the first place. I'm just here because I have nothing better to do than possibly jack off to /aco/.

>>46024728
>posting rules 4-5 editions and over 15 years out of date

>>46025565
>I'm just here because I have nothing better to do than possibly Jack off to /aco/

Same honestly.

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>>46025533
>>46025559
>>46025565
>tfw anon didn't know that the Marines have a fucking augment for everything

>>46025533
Funny you should mention that, because the ossmodula specifically mentions enhancing the "skeletomuscular" system, rather than the nervous system or brain. If anything, that particular enhancement would simply make the skull harder, make the damage the brain takes upon impact even worse.

>>46025624
They are the Emperor's greatest achievement for good reason.

>>46025636
But this is implying the Space Marine even has a brain. He could be a goddamn cyborg.

>See Iron Hands

>>46025624

Except for their groin.

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>>46025600
is there a problem? It's the only edition where the rules had some granularity. Eldar are (literally) faster, but as far as combat agility goes only the toppest tier heroes beat out marines.

>>46025636
>A small, complex, tubular organ, the ossmodula secretes hormones that both affect the ossification of the skeleton and encourages the forming bone growths to absorb ceramic-based chemicals that are laced into the Marine's diet.
This is the direct quote. It has remained unchanged since 1988.

>>46025681
What do you mean? There's an argument for that as well.

>>46025636
Their brains are overhauled with implants.

>>46025681
I really wish an official lore would just come out and confirm the status of the Space Marine groin.

>>46025559
Once, again, that would make the impact of their brain against their skull only worse.
And we're not talking about simply falling asleep, we're talking about the brain smashing into itself.

>>46025565
Likely because the writers don't understand how concussions work. That's just bad writing at that point, though to be fair it's a pretty common problem to encounter that is can't be easily resolved without force fields, pyschic powers, or as 40k chose to use, complete ignorance.

>>46025702
>is there a problem?
>posting outdated (retconned/non-canon) things as a source in a canon debate thread

Yeah there's a problem. This is as stupid as saying the Earth is flat.

>>46025757
>implying you need a brain to RIP AND TEAR the enemy.

Checkmate.

>>46025702
Yes, but that doesn't solve the brain impacting the skull problem.

>>46025721
>Their brains are overhauled with implants.
Which are detailed, with none doing anything except making the impact of the brain against the skull worse.

>>46025797
Except as they don't suffer from concussions when launched at planets at speeds comparable to meteors and walk away fine, they clearly are not affected by concussions at all.

Well except for shit like power mauls, but those are also using a matter disrupting field to liquefy shit.

>>46025763
>rules are canon
but they aren't. They're an abstraction. And 40k rules have only grown more abstract with time.

Older rules are inherently better for these discussions than new ones, because they're less watered down.

>>46025797
>solve
the multi-layered powered armor and ceramic-laced skull are going to be dissipating energy a whole lot nicer than you think.

I mean, guys wearing steel helmets don't drop like a sack of bricks the first time they take a hit to the head. It's kind of the point of a helmet.

>>46025845

No one said rules are canon. Outdated publishments are, however, outdated.

>>46025757
>>46025757
>Complete ignorance

Nah, 40k has always possessed technology that outright performs the theoretically impossible, from specialized generators that create sound-dampening fields to the physical nightmare that is Gravitons.

It doesn't try to be hard sci-fi, and the technology they use to excuse things is heavily analogous with space-magic. This is basically how it was written and very few writers have since tried to enforce a harsher scientific explanation on how the various things worked.

>>46025845
>Older rules are inherently better for these discussions than new ones, because they're less watered down.

How far up your ass did you have to reach to pull this one out?

Old rules had Terminator Marines who DIDN'T HAVE TERMINATOR ARMOR and many new things DIDN'T EVEN EXIST YET.

>>46012430
>jedi uses the force
>gets instantly raped by daemons
or
>jedi uses lightsaber
>gets peppered to hell and back by a chapter's worth of bolter fire, plasma rifles, sniper rifles, flamethrowers

No chance, cause that's what chu got.

>>46025828
>Except as they don't suffer from concussions when launched at planets at speeds comparable to meteors and walk away fine, they clearly are not affected by concussions at all.

Why.
Go on. Why.
Harder bones just makes the problem worse, and nowhere in the lore is their an augmentation that makes their brain rigid, because that would bring about a brand new set of problems including the compression of the optic nerve.

I'll save you some time and tell you that there is no explanation outside of asspull, and that 40k only functions with heavy loads of asspulls that make it quite pointless to try and compare it to any other universe, since space marines would hardly be able to live and breathe when taken outside of their nonsensical cartoon land.

>>46025864
>Outdated publishments are, however, outdated.
but they aren't outdated

Space marines and eldar haven't actually changed since 40k left Rogue Trader. The only new thing added has been additional equipment. Their fluff is the exact same.

>>46025880
aw shit I forgot, centurions and wraithblades existing totally invalidates everything that happened before seventh edition

>>46014176
He brings up a good point.

>>46025902
>40k only functions with heavy loads of asspulls
MEDICLORIANS

>>46025907
>getting a star wars wedding
Manchild stamp right here.

>>46025845
> mean, guys wearing steel helmets don't drop like a sack of bricks the first time they take a hit to the head. It's kind of the point of a helmet.

Yes, actually, they do. Ever seen a helmet to helmet collision in football?

Helmets are great. They do a lot to save lives and all that. But, there's limitations to everything, and even if you've got an extremely durable helmet and a thick skull, the brain is still going to be flung about inside it like someone kicked a half-filled can of tomatoes.

>>46025970
>Yes, actually, they do. Ever seen a helmet to helmet collision in football?
yeah, actually

I've even experienced them myself while playing ice hockey. Pucks to the head, too, because that shit happens when you're a goalie. Concussions aren't an everyday thing even with that.

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>>46025902
What a stunning observation your highness.

You only just now realized that 40k is no different from Marvel or DC comics? Or most fiction? No authors care about how things work unless they're very, very obsessed with it like Banks or Tolkien. They just say it works and it works, because they're the author, and its their story.

>>46025736
It already has, references to their dongors are made in those aweful HH novel by some chick. Relic dev also mentioned space Marines are equipped in a Reddit AMA. Earliest lore about the HH notes the emperors children killing and *raping* across Terra.

>>46026009
Ever taken a bullet to the head? Like a small caliber one?

>>46026028
Thankfully not. Have you? Is it pretty bad even with the deflection?

>>46020052
>no achievements
>Pedro Kantor
Saving all those civilians, including personally that woman and her children, is an achievement comparable to making a Bloodthirster your bitch.

It shows that for all the "demi-human god of war" wankery some Marines still care for the civvies, and will go to any possible extent to save them.

>>46025902
Tell me how Jedi manage to move shit with their minds, or how their laser swords don't continue on for eternity because lasers don't work like that, or how they somehow manage to have the reflexes to accurately position their swords to deflect extremely fast moving projectiles

It's fucking fiction you dumb nigger

>>46012538
I mean... it's OK to be wrong, I guess. But have you tried not being butthurt?

>>46026089
Not the other Anon, but considering the amount of kinetic energy your average bullet is carrying? I'd say it's pretty bad unless the impact direction is already guiding it on a similar angle to the helmet. A direct hit will most definitely have a high chance of spurring concussion, but I'm not SURE anything else would, with certainty, do anything of that kind but an extremely nasty daze if we're going with more modern helmets with all their delicious, shock and energy dispersing materials and designs.

Haven't run any real calculations or had experience with the events though, so don't take my word for it.

>>46026161
The Force, their beams are contained within a special field, the Force.

See, the Force is canon asspull. It's the duct tape that holds it altogether.

Sadly, not all space marines have psychic powers, because if they did, that would be perfectly reasonable canon asspull.

>>46026198
it's just spitballing space future soldier time, so whatever.

power armor's got to be a lot better at dissipating energy than modern helmets, though

>>46026247
Power Armour is definitely better at dispersing kinetic energy and the general effects of shockwaves. We know that Plasteel, Ceramite and Adamantium are all meant to be these hyper-advanced synthetic materials that are designed to be durable, it stands to reason that the padding underneath the plates are also incredibly capable materials designed during the Dark Age. That being said, the difference between pushing through a solid projectile impact to the helmet and dropping in a Drop Pod without concussion is pretty phenomenal. I could definitely get behind the former for the sake of "future technology," but the latter better have something else backing it up, like artificial force-reduction or something silly in the pods themselves.

>>46026324
>but the latter better have something else backing it up, like artificial force-reduction or something silly in the pods themselves.
There might be some technobabble behind them. I don't really feel like finding my old IA2 and checking to see if they mention anything specific, though.

I do know that for some reason the Lucius pods can only take dreadnoughts in them because everything else would just get crushed on landing, but it doesn't really explain why that's the case.

>>46025970
Steel helmets protect against shrapnel, not bullets or even blunt trauma all that well. That's why Sports players with their helmets designed for blunt force (which steel helmets are not) still get fucked up with concussions.

>>46026238
Like all the post-human modification isn't asspull? A SM is stronger and faster than a Jedi. A Jedi isn't faster than a blaster shot (subsonic, BTW, which not all rounds are) they use the force to put their sword in front of where the blaster shot is going to be.

A SM could literally move fast enough to avoid their sword because they can react faster then the Jedi can plan ahead. Jedi would probably just nope the fuck out and avoid encounters with SM while achieving mission objectives. If a Jedi has to fight a SM they've already lost.

>>46019552
Power armor breaks to a force sword so it would break to a lightsabre as well. And you forget the jedi has magic tricks. As I said a more fair fight would be jedi vs librarian.

>>46026605
>A SM is stronger and faster than a Jedi.

Nope. Stronger? Sure, and while they're faster than they look, they're nowhere near as fast as force-augmented dudes who play baseball with lasers.

> A Jedi isn't faster than a blaster shot (subsonic, BTW, which not all rounds are) they use the force to put their sword in front of where the blaster shot is going to be.

We call that faster than a blaster shot.

>A SM could literally move fast enough to avoid their sword because they can react faster then the Jedi can plan ahead

Nuh uh, because the SM would just be moving faster to where the Jedi was planning on putting his sword.

>If a Jedi has to fight a SM they've already lost.

A Jedi could just use concussive force to rattle a SM's skull until his eyes popped out, all by just really wanting it to happen. Hell, people like Vader can force choke people over the internet.

>>46026694
Lightsabers work on a completely different concept to power weapons. Plus Astartes are trained to fight against magic tricks that are way better than most anything force users have ever done.

>>46026705
Strength equals speed, you silly Billy.

And blasters aren't lasers, and you aren't faster if you start a race at the finish line.

Seriously, I never understood why they didn't just use volley fire against Jedi. Not like your laser sword can be in two places at once.

>>46026781
>why they didn't just use volley fire against Jedi
Order 66.

>>46026718
The work on a different concept, but are roughly as powerful. Plasma weapons (which the lightsabres seem to be) penetrate power armor.

Would an unarmored (but not unarmed) librarian beat a standard tactical marine? If so, then so would the jedi. And the fluff seems to suggest that that would be the case.

>>46021892
Gameplay and lore segregation
In Elder Scrolls there is magic powerful enough to create celestial objects and erase chunks of existence from...well existence
You never see that shit in game nor is it possible even though quite a few NPCs you've met can do that, for example the Psijic monk that you meet in Skyrim

If devs/writers/director/whoever says that something is canon, it simply is regardless of gameplay

>>46022289
>the canon stats are the final qualifier when used for comparisons
But that's wrong, there are so many games out there where things in fluff which are canon completely outclass fucking gameplay mechanics.

>>46023968
>You accept
It's truth that developers themselves accept and state as true. That is not a thing unique to fucking 40k you autist.

>>46026705
Why are we comparing Jedi to usual Space Marines?
Hell why are we comparing STRONG Jedi to usual Space Marines.
A powerful enough Librarian like Varro Tigurius could take any member of the Jedi council 1v1.
And if you go into Skywalker lineage bullshit we can move onto the equivalent, Emperor and Primarchs.

>>46026705
>Nope. Stronger? Sure, and while they're faster than they look, they're nowhere near as fast as force-augmented dudes who play baseball with lasers.

Jedi don't block lasers, blasters are typically subsonic particle beams that behave more like a weird fusion of plasma and generic sci fi wibbly wobbly nonsense deathrays. Space Marines meanwhile move fast enough to slap supersonic munitions out of the air and can dodge hypersonic projectiles.

>We call that faster than a blaster shot.

We call that faster than a paintball.

>Nuh uh, because the SM would just be moving faster to where the Jedi was planning on putting his sword.

Bro do you even Star Wars? Jedi have trouble with people moving at high speeds or even normal humans. Their precog wouldn't be useful against a Space Marine because he'd be moving as fast as they could comprehend the foresight. Plus space marines fight enemies with precognition all the damn time and kick their asses (Eldar).

>A Jedi could just use concussive force to rattle a SM's skull until his eyes popped out, all by just really wanting it to happen. Hell, people like Vader can force choke people over the internet.

Oh look, another thing that Jedi never do, but this Jedi will suddenly do so because you say-so. Normal Jedi struggle to lift large boulders or pillars, let alone even physically injure somebody with the force. Only the most powerful of the Sith both can and are willing to do so. Vader also is not a valid source, because Vader is not an average Jedi.

>>46026950
Except Jedi are neither as fast as Marines, cannot defend themselves at all as bolters, or parry space marine blows effectively without getting instantly killed. Librarians kill other marines in fights because unlike Jedi or Sith, they skip right to the instakill attack by simply melting people on the spot or literally turning them inside out. Neither Jedi or Sith do this, or else there wouldn't be duels in the first place.

Also people seem to be forgetting something. The Jedi actually CAN'T parry Space Marine blows. Not only are lightsabers mass-less, but Jedi aren't going to be able to hold a block against a 1-tonne human wielding a sword that likely outmasses half of their body. They can only attack or dodge, anything else will lead to their lightsaber being forced against themselves.

>>46027196
I doubt you'd need to go to named astartes to deal with almost any jedi, much a named Librarian for anything the Jedi could muster. Even in the Skywalker lineage.

Primarchs are just overkill in the extreme and the emps could probably just atomize the entire temple if you he really tried.

>>46027271
You should probably take that space marine cock out of your mouth before you try posting. Might clear your head a little so you stop short-changing jedi.

>>46027271
Of course they can block such blows. The light sabre is an extension of the jedi's connection to the force or some such bullshit; when handled by a normal guy, it's just a plasma sword, but in the hands of a jedi it's basically a force sword (W40k terminology) made of plasma. Jedi can throw people across the room with a force of approx. 1 ton (my own approximation from watching movies), so they should be able to handle forces like that just from using their psyker powers.
Bolter rounds can be frozen, deflected or will just miss.

Seriously, librarian vs jedi, not tactical vs jedi.

>>46027391
Wow, your sound evidence sure convinced me that he's wrong!

>>46027339
Old Extended verse Luke is pretty overpowered, but Emps is still way to OP for him

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>>46012430
regular marine < jedi < librarian

>>46027438
Except normal Jedi can't do that. Only the Masters. Or else this wouldn't have happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzKA_iMWHJY

Normal Jedi suck balls and can't even deflect multiple subsonic blaster shots. The only Jedi that could face a space marine are Jedi Masters.

>>46027634
Yeah no, read the books.

>>46027634
>blind
Dooku helped him

>>46027687
Doesn't matter. It happened in the movies and the books are not superior to the fucking source material. Plus almost all of the books are now non-canon.

>>46027702
Cool, prove it. I'd like to see where in the script it stated that directly.

>>46013228
Nope, Mace Windu. Vaapad plus Shatterpoint

>>46027750
>all of that non canon stuff

I kek'd anon.

>>46027736
Try watching the clip again and pay attention this time?

>>46027516
This, the W40k fluff says that a battle trained psyker beats a regular space marine

>>46027830
Battle trained psyker would smear a regular jedi on the ground.

>>46012430
>Jedi and Space Marine face eachother
>FIGHT!
>Jedi fights at the speed of thought
>Crushes the marine in a cacoon of force
>throws lightsaber and cuts the space marines head off

GG no re.

Force cacoon not work?
>FIGHT!
>Jedi speeds off and simultaneously pushes
>Marine fires off a few shots before getting pushed back
>Jedi speed plus force prediction lets him dodge the hasty shots
>space marine recovers, but Jedi is no where in sight
>Jedi comes down from his jump, light saber plunging down
>space marine dodges last second
>The plunge wa a distraction
>Bolter gets cut in half
>Jedi gets punched, but negates most of the blow with force prediction
>space marine charges in with chain sword
>Jedi out maneuvers him, tearing the chain sword apart in a flurry of exchanges
>Space Marine Rages and somehow grabs Jedi
>Jedi tries to attack pressure points, but no luck with space marine anatomy
>Space marine tries to crush the Jedi with main force
>Jedi uses force push to get him off
>Marine primes grenade
>Jedi uses force grab and throws it far enough
>Marine tries for anothe grab while the Jedi is distracted
>Force prediction triggers, the Jedi pivots and cuts one of the marine Achilles' tendons
>walks away while the marine fumes.

>>46027801
I'm sorry, I don't see anything anon. Dooku nodding proves jack shit. Now cough up that script transcript or else you have no proof of anything.

>>46028046
>ITT, I shitpost things that no normal Jedi Knight does, but rather the super special vision of Star Wars that only exists in my head

What is it with people that are so fucking retarded that they don't realize that unless there's feats, they can't do it?

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>>46012430
here is what happens:
1st fight
>Jedi tries to cut through chainsword
>does not work because it has force field
>gets punched out in one strike by a power armored fist
2nd fight
>jedi tries to mindtrick
>does not work because space marine is psycho conditioned to resist mind control
>Jedi gets blasted

3th fight
>Jedi gets shot by a bolter because not even mace windu can stop bullets in mid air (or by light saber) as is stated in "Shatterpoint".

4th fight
>jedi gets flamethrowered

5th fight
>jedi cuts marines arm
>gets kicked so hard he shits his own liver

6th fight
>jedi throws marine
>does not hurt him because armor protects from this bullshit
>jedi gets shot again

7th fight
>jedi gives up because he is a pussy faggot that cant even fight some faggot ass robots
>gets executed like the coward he is

Space Marines fight demons and psykers, no problem. Fighting against a Jedi would be no different than fighting a melee eldar of some sort.

Space marines are Soldiers Jedi are diplomats.
Jedi just suck at war as illustrated by episode II.
>Starfaggots check your butthurt.

>>46012538
Nobody took the bait. Go shove a lightsaber up your faggot ass.
>implying space monks without armour are better than space monks with power armor

Because people don't seem to live outside of a rock, the only thing that is canon anymore in Star Wars are officially licensed books by Disney made in 2015 or later, the two tv shows, and the movies.

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>>46027750
dude in shatterpoint it is established that windu cant even do anything against bullets. He would be dead in 2 seconds against a space marine.

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>>46028113

>>46016282
>in emotional pain
>in physical pain
>in physical pain
All things that make dark side users stronger. The moment he got shot I'm surprised he didn't cum in his shorts, edgy not!Sith faggots love that shit.

>>46028087
Battle precognition is common among the Jedi. Force speed not only enhances the Jedis movement speed, but also allows them to process information quickly. Force push may or may not be able to actually move a space marine. But it wouldn't be hard for a Jedi to vanish into stealth one way or another.

The biggest weakness the Space marine faces is that Jedi are extremely fast, and they don't need to cross the intervening space, not raise and aim a firearm.

I give the Jedi 7/10 in winning.

Gentlemen please. It depends on two key factors:

1) Which universe the crossover is occurring in (Space Marines entering Star Wars, or Jedis entering 40k)

2) How many are fighting on each side. If there's only one Jedi and multiple Space Marines, the Marines will die handily until only a named Marine is left.
Or alternatively, one Space Marine against a number of Jedi, all of the nameless Jedi will be messily killed until an important Jedi challenges the SM.

>but who would win in a 1vs1?
They'd probably both die, or fight to a standstill, and the outsider would be sent back home.

I mean realistically, Jedis do actually get killed by sufficiently large, speedy projectiles, gas weapons, land mines, bombs, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeI4mX8Nus

>>46028228
>extremely fast
No they aren't. Jedi only increase their speed when using force speed, which is rare as fuck. Most of the time they just pull slow rolls, jumps, and jinking like in the Clone Wars.

Meanwhile one of the main enemies of the Astartes, Eldar, can dodge LASERS like Neo in the Matrix flawlessly and move so fast they appear as blurs to normal humans.

>vanishing

Won't work with the autosenses of power armor. Plus space marines can hear their heartbeats, even in the heat of battle with gunfire going off right by their ear due to their ability to selectively tune out sounds like a mixer.


Jedi are weaker than Eldar, and Eldar get their shit pushed in by Space Marines on a regular basis, and Marines are outnumbered by them to begin with.

>>46027931
A jedi IS a battle trained psyker, idiot
That's the entire point of jedis and almost the definition of one

>>46028300
>Force speed, also known as burst of speed or Force sprint, was a core Force power that allowed the user to maintain sprinting speeds for a brief time. Greater aptitude granted greater boosts to speed and/or greater duration. The increased speed of the Force-user enabled the individual to see the world and the entities around them in slow motion, allowing them to dodge attacks easily and attack more quickly with greater accuracy.
Straight from the wiki. I'm also pretty sure there is a force power to conceal ones presence.

and as well made as the technology that is power armor, it is only a machine.

Both characters are extremely quick, but I gotta give props to the battle precog.

Ultimately, it's a very simple equation:

Space marines are very tall. This means that, all else being equal, they will have the high ground. That advantage is going to be very hard for the Jedi to overcome.

>>46028600
HA!

>>46012430
>>46012538
After reading through the last thread, I'm quite sure that this guy is a mad Star Wars troll from the last thread as these posts are very similar.

>>46009401
>>46009746
>>46010144
>>46010509
>>46010958
>>46011533
>>46011994
>>46012217

How fucking mad could you get, haha. This troll thread has gone on long enough.

>>46016965
>carrying tanks around the battlefield faster than the tanks themselves can go
>not fast

space marines would win
but to be honest that's not really all that suprising since they're near immortal superhumans genetically tampered with and physically altered to kill that are seven foot tall walking tanks.
Jedi are also not psykers as the powers even sanctioned psykers use are much more along the lines of the dark side or lacking a parallel. They're more warrior monks with power weapons and telekenis, some superhuman powers and a third sense.

But if you want to compare the entire universes, i mean damn. They both have little clue what they're talking about and are filled with hyperbole in population size, planet count and power levels.

>>46028089
Couldn't a jedi, in theory, just use the force to choke a spacemarine to death from some remote location? Or he could crush his heart by just squeezing his fist really hard.

I think the only real reason the jedi wouldn't win against a spacemarine is because a jedi would not want to resort to such brutal, savage tactics.

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>>46028600
kek

>>46029565
>Or he could crush his heart by just squeezing his fist really hard.
Jokes on the Jedi, Space Marines have a backup for just such occasions.

>>46029601
I already accounted for all the Spacemarine's redundant organs, and the answer always comes down to "If the Jedi weren't a Jedi, the Jedi would win."

A SITH versus a Spacemarine, on the other hand, would be a much more interesting fight.

>>46028422
Wiki doesn't mean shit anon. Force Speed is a thing, but it almost never used by Jedi. In fact it only appeared once in the movies (Qui Gon and Obi Wan run from the droidekas) and I think thrice in the Clone Wars.

NOICE ONE BRUV

>>46028408
No they aren't. Jedi are primarily swordsmen who occasionally use force powers offensively.

Trained sanctioned psykers are horrifying flailing human avatars of death zapping everything around them with bolts of energy that vaporize people and ethereal flames that cook metal. Jedi and Sith are absolutely nothing like Psykers, as Psykers are far more brutal and unpredictable.

Even in the EU the force doesn't match up with psykers.

Starkiller guided a star destroyer falling into a planet.

Khayon of the Thousand Sons dragged a 3 kilometer long battleship through the warp at FTL speeds for weeks/months and then threw it like a javelin at a planet so hard life stopped existing on said planet.

>>46024728

>Cherry picking ancient stats
>Which are slower than the Eldar equivalents from back then

Marine fags...

>>46012430
The problem with this whole argument is that there is a wide range of capabilities within both of the classes of "Jedi" and "Space Marine". A Jedi Padawan would easily be BTFO by a Space Marine Librarian. A Tactical Marine armed with a standard bolter wouldn't last two minutes against a Jedi master with Yoda level skills.

You need to provide a more specific scenario to even have a good conversation.

>>46026605
>A SM is stronger and faster than a Jedi

Strength doesn't mean jack shit when your lightsaber turns marines to butter with a flick of the wrist. Also are they fuck faster. Jedi can force jump over a whole tac squad and bounce around the house like Eldar.

>>46029712
I disagree, dark side jedi ("sith", though that is inaccurate) commonly (read: in one case in the movies AFAIK) use force lightning which probably would instantly kill a non-psyker/non-jedi. There you have your psyker bolts of energy. Etc

>>46029828
Except we have no example of it being an insta-kill threat to anybody.

>>46029753
You can't mix in-canon power levels like that.
Obviously it should be padawan vs space marine scout, and Yoda vs Magnus the red or something, respectively.
It's open call on the first one and I think that Magnus would easily win the second.

>>46029841
We also have no example of lightsabres cutting into power armor. This entire thread is hypothesis.

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>>46028408
Jedi has 1 main weapon: Precognition
Without it, they suck balls.
To mantain their precog, they need to be trained to do so, and they need to keep on focusing.
Force also has the insane downside of being a magical energy. It will come with insane downsides because it needs to work like its magical energy. Which is why Sith can't instantly kill people with Force Lightning, or why Force Choke always uses a lot of time to kill people.

The main problem with Space Marines is their raw stats. Without armor, they are resistant to every form of damage.
With armor, they have the physical stats of large beasts thats halfway imprevious to damage.

I honestly think Clone wars do showcase the Force Users stenghts the most: They can sense how things are going, in a very abstract manner, which is why Darth Maul was able to highjack 3 crime syndicates and 1 government in a matter of weeks.
Or why Darth Sidious was able to make one extremely long plan to take over the Republic.
Jedi are actually unique in fiction: Their main ability is superhuman Diplomancy and superhuman Sense Motive, with some physical stats to back it up.
Space Marines are different. They are just living superweapons once in their armor.

>>46029889
No, the main problem of the force is that it's written for the movies. The reason force lightning takes time to kill is that it's only been used on regular people in the games (which are not canon) and the choke was just to show off how badass and evil Darth Vader was. If you see how jedis throw people around a room you also realize that it might as well have been "force neck snap".

>>46030002
The only canon thing, is that THE FORCE CAN DO EVERYTHING.
But there is a big problem: It will do it in the FORCE way.
That means Force Choke won't be a instant neck snap. It means Force Lightning is a torture tool.
It means you can only Force Grab whole objects, if you are aware of what the entire object is(i.e why wall panels can be hard to grab)

Jedi is not built for combat. They are built for long term decisionmaking, unable to make bad decisions.

>>46030034
While you are right, the fluff, as it is, contradicts you by calling the jedi the finest warriors in the galaxy.

As for the force doing things the force way, as I said, that's because it looks better in a movie. At the same time, W40k psyker powers work the way they do in the lore because it can be connected to how they work on the tabletop.

>>46030365
Psykers also come with power levels.
Would a Jedi's power level qualify as a Delta or Epsilon level Psyker?

>>46029712
>Khayon of the Thousand Sons dragged a 3 kilometer long battleship through the warp at FTL speeds for weeks/months and then threw it like a javelin at a planet so hard life stopped existing on said planet.
That helped the TS a lot when space furries invaded their planet.

>>46030689
Depends on the jedi. The upper range of them such as Yoda or Luke are probably about as powerful as some named psykers in 40k (some chief librarian or what not). They don't measure up to the most powerful ones though (emperor, 30k Magnus, etc - those outclass any jedi).

Obviously I'm just guessing here. Most jedi power is only hinted at in the star wars fluff, while the W40k fluff is very direct. Again, this is intended for movie vs. intended for connecting to tabletop.

>>46030916
>>46030689
Alpha lever Psykers can destroy planets, if they can think of a way to use their powers to do that AND their power set includes the needed tools.

Most Jedi seem to be Zeta to Omicron level for their relative power level, but with a lot of extra points into Divination. A LOT of extra points.
By 40k standards they are running around with Alpha or Beta level of Psyker potency that can only be used for Divination, IF they are trained enough.

>>46030994
I have no idea of levels. Is the emperor (back when he was still running around) alpha level? Why didn't he just blow up Horus' ship instead of teleporting onto it during the HH?

Anyway, no, as said in >>46030365, the jedi are supposedly warriors.

>>46031086
>Why didn't he just blow up Horus' ship instead of teleporting onto it during the HH?
Busy powering the Astronomicom.
He also apparently wanted Horus alive, for some reason.
And then he showed how he was the worst father all years, when he spent his battle crying with angst.

>>46028626
Jesus christ that guy is mad.
Though he's completely wrong, as his entire arguement ignores necrons.

>>46030916
The major issue with evaluating Star Wars force powers is that when it comes down to any major conflict, it tends to be force vs. force, and any effect you see is the end result of too enormous counterforces impacting upon each other with one finally managing to tip over the other.

Ultimately, a high class force user is considerably more powerful than any 40k psyker, even the emperor, because scale, distance, and size are irrelevant to them. If it was the will of the Force, they could dissolve entire galaxies just as easily as they could move a pen a few inches. Size matters not and all that. When we're talking about the "true" upper range, the highest tier of force atunement, we are looking at what is essentially an avatar of a monotheistic god-like force. While this is only hypothetical in the movies, it's discussed in the EU books and there's even an avatar of half the force, a concentrated and sentient living Dark Side that is only limited by its imagination (performing stunts like telekinetically moving star destroyers) and the constraints of opposing the Light Side, all while being nearly invincible.

But, while that's all big and splashy stuff that 40k players readily understand, it's hardly the true "strength" of the force. Yoda and Luke are considerably more subtle, and their use of the Force, or the Force's use of them, is more of a "right time, right place, careful nudge in the right direction in order to maintain balance" type of thing. It's subtle, but extremely effective, since Luke managed to destroy the Death Star with just two shots and defeated the emperor by literally screaming and crying for help.

It's the sort of thing where all the strongest 40k Psykers could gather together, teaming up with all the Chaos Gods and all the other factions as well, and simultaneously try to oppose the will of the Force, and still somehow manage to lose thanks to a series of seemingly small events that snowballed into a cataclysmic fall.

>>46031107
You mean busy keeping the webway gate shut. But he already had put Malcadar on that seat by the time he was about to go fight Horus, and could have stopped and thought: "maybe I shouldn't teleport onto a giant spaceship full of demons, especially when there's a risk that my backup accidentally teleports to the other end of the ship".

>>46031346
Those books are non-canon though. And yeah, of course any character in any fiction could do whatever the author wishes. And yes, the main power of the force is that it just works. Doesn't matter though, we are discussing from a position that can be found in the canon in at least some way.

The emperor, though, is so strong, canonically, that during the webway project he kept four literal gods away from the project for several years. Something that took so much power from the third most powerful human psyker ever that in a matter of hours he turned to ash. I think you underestimate how much of a Mary Sue the emperor is.

>>46031278
He's insanely wrong, Star Wars has loads of ground battles and explosions in space and stuff, etc, I could go on.

Anyway, on this topic, the Jedi would have lost without the clones. When the clones turned on them, they got pwned. The average Jedi would get pwned by space marines. Only the high rankers Jedi who are in incredibly small numbers stand a chance.

>>46028600
Kek and nice dubs.

>>46031346
>Ultimately, a high class force user is considerably more powerful than any 40k psyker
The force greatest strength is that there is only Do or Don't, there is no such thing as "trying".
The biggest onscreen example we have is Darth Sidious literally clouding the Jedi's ability to precog, then making a 50 year gambit playing all sides, and then becoming the Galactic Emperor.

The force greatest strength is Time, Opportunity and Instinct.
So yes, it can do anything, but that do not mean it can do anything in a reasonable time scale, or with a direct method.

>>46031530
I think you underestimate what a monotheistic force is capable of.

You can literally compile a list of everything in 40k, everything. Double it even. An infinite amount of Emperors if you wanted. And, that's still going to fall short if they try to oppose the will of the "Force." Remember that whole thing where the Emperor got betrayed and got semi-murdered and everything became sad? That's basically what happens when someone gets hit by the Destiny truck.

We're looking at a canon form of Deus Ex Machina that people in their universe can measure. As "over-the-top" as 40k might be, it's really just not up to par against a force that can minutely maneuver individuals throughout a galaxy to impose its will.

Luke vs. the Death Star is basically just a smaller scale of what it looks like when the Force needs balance. Even supposedly insurmountable forces, incredible planet-destroying forces, can fall to a plucky teenager and his friends.