Are elves more likely to be monogamous or polygamous? To sate

>>45608685
Monogamous. The primary advantage of polygamy is to produce a greater number of offspring, often because only a few will survive to adulthood. However, with at least 170 breeding years, elves have no reason to value quantity over quality when it comes to childbirth.

>>45608685
We have the biological data, but not anything culturally oriented. Monogamy and polygamy are an aspect of culture not biology so depends on the fucking setting

>>45608772
No, biology shapes culture more than you're giving it credit for. We make socieities following biological drives; primarily optimizing the success of our children.

>>45608685
Polyandrous and eusocial, displaying germline chimerism.

>>45608685
Depends on the setting.

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>>45608685
None of those factors have any bearing on that part of their culture. So it depends on the setting.

>>45608685
A setting with Elves is a setting with Magic, so they probably fuck everyone and magic away the STDs

>>45609064
>how long it takes to raise your child doesn't matter if you're staying with one guy
>time spent able to have a kid but unable to make decisions doesn't matter either
>the ability to raise your child to full adulthood and still be in prime baby making years doesn't matter

You're an idiot

I'd argue they're a mixture of both.

Birth rates what they are, Elves cannot afford to settle with just one person lest they wind up barren or lacking in fertility. For this reason, Elves are likely quite promiscuous while single.

HOWEVER, should an Elf wind up pregnant, it is expected of the father to settle with the woman and become monogamous with her, the children raised by the settlement as to ease the burden on the mother and encourage more births.

>>45609129
>Birth rates what they are
What are you talking about? We didn't get any information on birth rates.

>>45609164
not him, but any population that is significantly above replacement levels will destroy itself, so you can expect that the average female elf will have ~3.5 kids I'd guess.

>>45608685
Not polygamous, but polyamorous. Elven culture doesn't practice marriage, and relationships aren't expected to last until death, which is an awful long time when you can live 750 years. When a romantic pairing has run its course (which often still exceeds a human lifespan), elves are able to let it go. And because elves don't expect to love one person for their whole lives, having multiple relationships at once is normal.

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>>45609113
>>45608685

And yet none of those things strictly determine their moral values and whether or not they would see it as ethical to have more than one partner. Consider that despite having the exact same biological functions as everyone else in the world, our cultures vary on acceptance of polygamy.

The fact that you do not consider morals or ethics to be a huge part of this question leads me to believe that it is in fact you who is the idiot and/or of questionable character.

Define some morals and ethics for us and you'll get better results.

>>45608685
Depends on the setting.
Pick one.

>>45608685
Depends on if you mean monogamous or polygamous in terms of a social construct (i.e. marriage), which is the meaning of the term in a legal context.

Generally biologists wouldn't use terms like monogamous or polygamous (anthropologists would tho), they'd refer to cohabitation and such.

Do you mean:
>takes one/many partners at a time
>takes one/many partners during a lifetime

Humans perform a mix of both, heavily biased towards "take many partners at a time". Though the legal/social code until very recently is usually either "take one partner at a time" and "take one partner during a lifetime", depending of how socially conservative the specific culture is.

Also, human women have traditionally been "takes one partner during a lifetime" much, much more than men, though again, that's social as they were not encouraged to initiate founding relationships and usually lacked the social ability to exit relationships with any prospect of obtaining another or existing independently.

Is your elven society Matriarchal, Patriarchal, or Omiarchal?.

Um, also, if they're physically mature but mentally immature between 30 and 60, and with only 10 months gestation, then at least for that period, they're likely to be fucking like rabbits without extremely strong social or family unit controls.

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>>45608685
Even the information you gave isn't consistent across all settings. I've seen settings where elves live to 300, and setting where they live to 3,000.

>>45611134
now this is advanced shitposting

>>45608685
What's with you weirdos and elves? The concept is cleary just "people, but hotter and blonde". They're no more fascinating than any other fantastical race. Why don't you ever ask about dwarves or goblins? Is it possible to creep on an entire fictional race?

>>45611134
>literally can't reading comprehension

>>45611187
>Why don't you ever ask about dwarves or goblins?
Are you new to the site, sir?

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>>45611134
I think that was less of a "this is what elves are" thing and more like "for the purpose of this argument, this is what elves are". Some elves in some settings are just flat-out immortal. Tolkien's elves don't even really die when they die (with the exception of the ones who wanted the Human D).

But assuming that elves in that hypothetical have roughly a 50/50 male-to-female population, I don't see why they'd be inclined towards polygamy except in isolated circumstances. It'd be even less likely because elven women are often depicted to be as capable as elven men, so you're not as liable to have a bunch of dissatisfied trophy wives who wished they were the only apple in their husband's eye. They can just as easily say, "Yeah, no. Fuck off with your harem, I'm going to find someone whose attention isn't split seven ways."

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>>45611226
Must be new to /tg/ at the very least. People love their dwarf threads almost as much as elf threads. Goblin threads have also been gaining in popularity mostly in the increasing popularity of the shortstack fetish.

>>45611269
Thanks for the npc art btw

>>45608685
>>Average lifespan is 500 years
>>Bodily puberty completes at about 30
>>Mental maturity completes at about 60

This all depends on the setting.
Elves in Faerun live slightly longer then that for example, and mature physically at the EXACT same rate as humans, both physically and mentally.
The difference is that the culture doesn't consider them social adults until the reach 100-ish, akin to how we require people to be 21 to do many things even though they are capable of adult tasks much earlier then that.
So basically it really DOES depend on the setting, and your lack of exposure to information outside basic D&D is leading you to assume "general" rules for elves that just flatly aren't true.

Here's the only relatively consistent rules;
>They live longer. How much is variable.
>They have pointy ears. How pointy us variable.

That's it. Those are the only assumptions you can actually make. Everything else is assuming everyone looks at D&D automatically for inspiration and picks up a PHB to look for "canon" elf ages.

>>45611372
When did people stop knowing how to read?

>>45608685
What about settings where elves are a sub-race of humans enhanced through biomancy and the elf "mutation" is carried by mitochondrial DNA so the mothers race determines the childs race?

>>45611397
its the education system anon, you just got to feel the bern and hope it can all be fixed.
of course we might all be trumped and then when anime becomes real it will no longer matter.

>>45608685
Considering the massive amount of breeding opportunities I'd say true or social monogamy. After all they do have to care for their young for a bloody long time (not compared to their life span that is).

>>45611397
They didn't. See?
Asking specific questions is easy. Now I'll do one.
Why did you ask a stupid question when you already knew the answer?
No seriously, why? Do you need help world building? If so then just say it, me and tons of others love to help out with that stuff! Are looking for "logic"? I guess you can, but I can name at least 5 major fantasy settings that have had MANY of players/readers/viewers where the rules of elves are different, so you're looking for logic in something inherently fluid. I actually just want to know.

>>45611484
Do you go to other people's houses and move their condiments around because "other people arrange them this way"?

OP set rules at the start of the thread, so either you're in the conversation or you aren't.

>>45611534
Is that it? He phrased it very poorly.

>>45611556
To contribute; do their brains and memories work the same as ours?
Are they mentally basically human?
That might actually influence a lot on their views.

>>45611556
>consider the following biology
This is perfectly acceptable phrasing.

You sound like you've never studied logic and reasoning.

>>45608685
we also need to know how long both genders are fertile, how easy it is for them to conceive, bring to term, and provide for their children, and how many they can reasonably be expected to birth over their lifetime on average. also do they have any quirks like being able to choose which sperm impregnates them or when? is birth easy or hard? what is the rate of death in childbirth for either the mother or child? how long are the parents socially expected to raise the children and how many children at a time are they expected to raise? are the parents the sole caregivers or does family and friends also play a part? if so how much on average?

>>45611657
if you're physically fit you can likely reproduce, to the assumption would be menopause hitting somewhere between 200 and 400 depending on diet

birth rates have to be only slightly above replacement levels so that they don't explode and deplete their resources. So each female will give birth to ~3 kids (assuming one dies before having kids himself)

If quirks aren't stated, they're assumed to not exist.

Information wasn't given on birthing, so equate it to human odds

Death in childbirth would again be equated to humans, so a function of medicine

societal expectations are being extrapolated from biology, not the other way around

>>45611699
haha what a massive list of non-answers. listen op asked a question and he didnt give enough answers. but in order of your answers
Lets not make assumptions on menopause just from physical fitness
you hardly can guess replacement levels from a species that lives so damn long and has access to unknown tech and maybe magic
i can except the quirk point for now
i absolutely cant do that because that is a function of technology more than anything
see above
yes, thats why im asking, since even with biologically similar animals you can see wide variations in expectations. even with in the same species for sapient animals. so thats another non-answer


op we cant answer your question without more information please respond or be labled forever as a lazy bitch

>>45608685
>Are elves more likely to be monogamous or polygamous?
Yes

>>45608685
really sounds like it up to you OP. If you make something you can chose whatever you want.
Personally I would say they are monogamous (using your information of course) since they have a long lifespan and therefore have a long period when they can have children

>>45608685
yes. they do find life partners and tend to stick with them for life. but they cheat.

sex does not equal love for the immortals.

>>45608685
I'd say monogamous, but it's relatively rare for a couple to stay together for their entire life.

Generally speaking, the default is polygamy. For around every 14(?) female ancestors you have, you have 1 male ancestor, I can't recall the the exact ratio, but generally speaking in nature the VAST VAST majority of males simply do not reproduce. So I think polygamy is the default.

>>45609404
They vary in acceptance, but not practice.

>>45608772
That's not true. Animals are predisposed to a certain type of behaviour. Humans, for example, are a weird type of inbetween species as we're mostly monogamous but can sometimes choose to take a different partner on the side.

This is a behaviour that can also be observed in certain types of birds, for example, while other animals are either entirely monogamous or entirely polygamous.

>>45614289
>Mormons
>Muslims
>(Early) Hebrews

>>45608685
Strictly speaking, as Elves are (presumably, you never state) still mammals, we need only know their male genital size as a function of their body mass in order to determine if, and to what degree, the are polygamous.

>>45608966
You, I like you.

>>45611187
>What's with you weirdos and elves? The concept is cleary just "people, but hotter and blonde".
Elves are a stand-in for the attractive people who shunned them in high school, while dwarves are coolbros who are non-threatening.

By constantly posting about raping elves, they're able to temporarily sate their shameful memories of high school rejection.

>>45608685
Like another anon said, polyandrous.

Also, that sounds like a raw deal to be crippled up at 200 when you've got another 300 years of being crippled up ahead of you.

>>45613877
Yes. You are an idiot.

>>45608685
Under conditions like those you list (Basically everything the same except the massive class divide in lifespan, they all tended towards what you define as 'rich'), I had elves prone to serial monogamy: they might stay with a partner for 40 or 80 years but seldom for life unless they were noble and politics were involved. As such Elven marriages had to be renewed every 20 years or they'd be considered lapsed -- divorce was the norm rather than the exception or even a big event. ~350 good years is a LONG time to be "truly" monogamous, but paired partners have better single child outcomes so sticking together for child rearing made sense

>>45608685
I would like to see commentary on elven fertility rates and *ahem* sex drive.

Without this I feel all other information is lacking.

Most settings make elves fertile very really in comparison to humans. Many settings elves are considered near asexual. Since elven women have fey features they many of us consider sexy we all magical realm them to nimphos at times.

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Surprised this hasn't been posted.

>>45611269
don't forget cutebolds

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>>45614861
That was an interesting read.

>>45608685
>Completely natural species.
>500 year lifespan
>30 years of raising kid

How have they not been wiped out? Whatever. They practice Polygyny because it would be insanely easy for a tough male to take out competition and then never have to worry about another male for 30 years.

>>45615955
because proportionally speaking, that would be like a human finishing puberty at 6 and mental puberty at 12?

>>45608685
I always imagined Elves being matriarchal and practicing serial monogamy/polyandry. Elvish males would have considerably shorter lifespans than females (150 years and 250 years, respectively) with males having a greater testosterone factor than their human counterparts.

>>45616061
And that makes it realistic? The amount of time humans spend on raising young is already insane.

>>45614757
Non sequitur.

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>>45614734
Wrong, faggot.

>>45617210
Nothing has just one side to its story, anon.

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>>45609261
>~3.5 kids
>3.5

>>45609261
Your numbers are way off

No setting given
I assume this is MTG
Elves are a horde race only comparable to goblins
Elven females will need to be in use throughout 100% of their breeding ages to hit that.

Source
Elvish Promenade
Rhys the Redeemed
Nissa Revana

>>45608966
Can you explain for the dumbfucks like me who can't be assed to Google all those words individually?

>>45617337
2.1 only works with modern medicine

Africa is pumping out 7+ kids per female because they die.

>>45614861
Huh, that was probably the most succinct thing I've read on 4Chan.

Damn shame the link got cut off.

>>45608685

None of your information has any bearing on child-rearing and pair-bonding behavior. THe long lifespans just means it all takes longer. If elves in your example are otherwise like humans, then they'll behave like humans in terms of their mating patterns.

If we follow human experience and animal models, then a clear pattern emerges. Formation of a status hierarchy, with the top 5% of males having multiple mates, the bottom 10-15% having no mates, and the middle 80% being monogamous.

The basic family unit is the large extended family/tribal organization. Nuclear families and single parent families like we see in the West right now are historically very new developments and are unlikely to be sustainable long-term.

Historically, this follows two broad patterns. In one, you have legally sanctioned polygamy. Sometimes the first wife is given special privileges, but ultimately all women are part of the male's household. Even in societies like this, monogamous marriage is the norm for economic and partner availability reasons.

In the other model, you have official monogamy but with mistresses and cheating. So the very high status males have a single wife (or sometimes no official wife) but have kids on the side with mistresses, courtesans, or servants. In the American South during the slavery era, these mistresses were slaves forced into sexual servitude, with their children still slaves but given some additional privileges. In feudal Japan, you had an official wife, one or more consorts, and sex with servants and courtesans was socially acceptable. All this pretty much only applies to the high-status males, of course. Notice how both cultures have stern measures forbidding female cheating.

So legally and socially it takes many forms, but the overall pattern remains the same. It can be horrifying in cases, but it's an expression of the underlying mathematics of the situation.

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Monogamous.

It's not that they aren't cute or anything; it's just that if elves live so long and can take 60 years to mature, they'd probably want to have long-lasting relationships. Medieval humans wouldn't even be likely to live 60 years, and with sterile children, there wouldn't be many half-elves at all.

>>45617964

OK, so that's pair-bonding behavior. Now for cheating. Yes, even animals do it. With cheap DNA testing, it turns out that far more cheating occurs among supposedly permanently mated animals than we previously thought. Up to 15% of Americans borne before DNA testing were unknowingly conceived by another father-- this may be an aberration due to the study design, but as any pediatrician will tell you, it happens far more often than people realize. Medical ethics guidelines call for pediatricians not disclosing this unless legally compelled, for the good of the child.

We've already seen above that cheating can be a manifestation of polygamy-like behavior.

Biologically, the male can reproduce costlessly but women are saddled with very onerous child-rearing costs. Usually, this forms the basis of a trade: a woman offers regular and exclusive sex to a man in exchange for him picking up half the child-rearing costs. But males won't pass up a reproductive opportunity on the side (and the female won't suffer unless the male picks up that mate's childrearing costs). And the female wants her few reproductive opportunities to be fruitful, so she might very carefully cheat with a very high-status male so as to get better DNA mixed into her kids. So both have a reason to police the relationship, but both have an incentive to cheat if they can get away with it.

So males will cheat more often, but female cheating is more costly to the relationship. Hence why in many societies (I used the Old South and feudal Japan above because they're well documented and the rules are pretty strictly laid out, but the Islamic world, many parts of sub-saharan Africa, and modern moneyed elites in the West all behave this way), adultery is forbidden but winked at if it's a male, but bitterly condemned if it's a female.

Also remember that just as with humans, particular environmental, economic, or historical factors might cause temporary or even permanent deviations from this pattern.

>>45611935
Underrated post

>>45618027
>>45617964
I just want to say that I appreciate you typing all this.

>>45617964

Woah there Mr. Reasonable argument all of those presumptions are based on the presed human lifespan. A standard human can presumably begin offputting babies 15-20. To raise a human young takes equally as long. Multiple broods may be spawned in the timespan. One at 15, 16, 17, so on.

We need to nail down
1. Infinitely (200 years is a long time)
2. Semi-Moagamy (raise a clutch moove on to another mate
3. Fertility Rates (us 1 day a month, them who fucking knows)
4. Sex drive (do they even wanna mate)

Assuming biological evolution, these factors would build the culture we are presuming.
Enviorment>Biology>Individuals>Culture

>>45618027

So then the only problem remaining is how to get rid of the excess males. Fortunately, humans are a warlike species, so you send your male kids off to war. Your civilization gains more resources, eliminates excess males, and so the males at the top can enjoy their mates. And, oh by the way, rape among occupying troops was not just an epidemic... it was a recognized and socially sanctioned spoil of war. And for many civilizations, an instrument of state policy.

When you have an unwarlike (or if not enough people die) society practicing polygamy, then you have a problem. There are a couple outlets for this.

The easy one is what the fundamentalist Mormons do: they have incredibly strict social rules, and exile anyone (almost always male) who doesn't play ball. In that case, males go to the larger American society and either fall into drug abuse and crime due to their guilt and abandonment, or adjust, breathe a sigh of relief, and enjoy a less constrained life.

Another way to bleed off excess males is excessive violence (dueling, crime) or dangerous manual labor with a high fatality rate.

Still another way of dealing with it is by sticking with monogamy and having more cheating. So everyone pairs off, but the lower-status men have to deal with raising a few kids that look suspiciously like their mayor or boss. And the higher-status females have to deal with the fact that their man is having affairs with other married women.

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>>45618110
>Woah there Mr. Reasonable argument all of those presumptions are based on the presed human lifespan.

Yeah but look at OP's assumptions. He's essentially multiplying all the spans by 3 or so. So the actual economics doesn't change.

I totally agree that there are assumptions under which the human culture falls apart. Just not THESE assumptions.

>>45618068

Thanks!


Pic is a different point about the same subject, from GURPS Bio Tech, in the chapter about creating new species.

>>45618231

The point of my pic being that if elves got more of their DNA from one sex than the other, then sex ratios would shift to match that.

The easy out is to say "magic" or the local pantheon/cosmology or whatever. But OP obviously wants the equilibrium state without all that taken into account.

>>45618132

One area where OP's assumptions do make a slight change is this: standard of living correlates strongly to lifespan. So up to a certain point, where a high-status male might have traded standard of living for his wife and kids (to get and support another wife or a mistress), that male might decide to invest in good diet and lifestyle to extend his own and his wife's period of fertility and have more kids.

IMO this would result in far more spousal jealously and more elaborate policing of the relationship against cheating. It might also make the society more strictured and formal in general. And I think you'd almost certainly get more materialistic and controlling parents, to ensure that the kids get the best possible lifestyle and therefore ensure that their genes propagate further. Perhaps enshrined in powerful tribal groups.

Oops, we've invented Dwarves. :)

Another possibility is changing the fertility clock. If a woman is only fertile once a year, or at some other infrequent interval, but has to spend multiple years raising her kids, then there's less need to police the mate except during that fertile period. If fertility is synchronized in a group, then there are fewer opportunities to mate outside the pair-bond. If the male only desires fertile females, then that's reinforced.

Among humans, sex is both a reproductive task and also a way to reinforce the pair-bond even when not fertile.

I just read The Real Barenziah

Elves are sluts man.

>>45617670
They're hive creatures that mix the genes of their drones.

>>45618600
So the male genes are intermixed, while the females are all mostly the same?

>>45618511
I always wondered how accurate the books were, I mean Barenziah doesnt seem the type to tell people how she's realized that she fucked up her life by turning her nose up on all the opportunities for real happiness she had, or how anyone would be able to tell what the mad queen of solitude was thinking on her deathbed. still probably more accurate than the official versions

>>45608685
Depends on the culture, which depends on the setting

>>45617115

Only to an idiot.

>>45620519
Good note to end on fa/tg/uys

>setting
>setting
>setting
>setting
>setting
>setting
>idiot
>idiot
>idiot

/thread

Elves are polyamorous, free love.

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>>45618511

> "What sort of test?"

> "Ah," Therris said. "Payment first, sweet thing." He put an arm around her, leaned over and kissed her, thrusting his tongue deep into her mouth and his free hand into her shirt.

> "Nice," he said presently, withdrawing his tongue, but not his hand. His other hand slid down inside her waistband and fondled her buttocks.

> "Let's go upstairs. We can use my room," Barenziah felt both embarassed and excited by his boldness.

> Therris grinned insolently. "Why bother? You want me, don't you? I'll bet you'd pay me, wouldn't you?"

> "No," Barenziah said. She did want him, but not that badly.

> "No? Well, a bargain's a bargain and Therris keeps his word. But here. Now." He hiked her skirt up and pulled her onto his lap so she sat astride, facing him. He opened her shirt and pulled it down on her shoulders so that her breasts were exposed.

> "Nice pair, kid." She was facing the wall but she could feel the stares of the other patrons. A hush had fallen over the place. Even the bard had stilled. She felt both nausea and a hot burning desire. Her hands released his turgid penis and then it was inside her and she was screaming in both pain and ecstasy. Then everything went black.

> When she came to herself again she was sitting beside Therris, who was buttoning her shirt. "That hurt!" she said indignantly.

> "Always does, kid. Didn't anyone ever tell you about Khajiit men? It hurts good though, now doesn't it?" Barenziah scowled at him. She was still smarting. His penis had tiny little barbs on it.

>>45617964
>>45618027
>>45618132
>>45618475
I hope someone's screencaped this.

>>45617964
>>45618027
>>45618132
>>45618475

As fascinating as this all is, it's also fucking shitty. Fuck that noise.

Polygamy is definite now for my elves, just so they are fucking shits and have the shit of real life.

>>45608685
In my opinion most elves, especially older ones would become polygamous. Mostly because elves are usually depicted as free thinkers and not really restricted by tradition or formality. If your elves don't follow that kind of thinking then they might be different, but as far as I can tell the older I get, the more willing I am to experiment outside the bound of social norms. And I'm only in my 20's, not something like 100+ years old.

>>45608862
Then how come there are so many different cultures with so many different values on but not limited to polygamy/monogamy, yet humans across the globe are more or less the same?

>>45617927
>succinct
>9 fucking posts
don't use words you don't understand you pretentious faggot

>>45608966
Fucking *nice*.

>>45626195
Human biology may be more or less the same, but their environment isn't.

>>45614548
I can't say how all of those cultures did it, but humans are biologically predisposed to have one primary sexual partner, regardless of how many other partners they take on the side or how open they are about it.

>>45608685
Depends on the setting.

>blah blah biology
That all depends on the setting too. Don't say "elves", say "LotR elves" or "forgotten realm elves". Otherwise you're not getting anywhere.