Breaking the clichés

Doing the opposite of a shitty trope is still a shitty trope.

>>44983175
How?
A trope is something that everybody has seen/played so many times that it has become boring. Bringing the opposite of that trope to the table, will not get you the same response of 'this shit again'.

Some bard archetypes:
>MUSIC
Jack-of-all-trades with a Sitar
Overpowered manwhore
Glamorous rockstar (best if everyone in the party knows an instrument, too)
Amateur looking for inspiration/songwriting materiel
>NOT MUSIC
Exiled town crier
Gonzo journalist
Intrepid entrepreneur
Audacious playwright (makes the party put on shows)

Remember, the bard doesn't have to be the magical realm gatekeeper.

>>44983315
>Overpowered manwhore
>doesn't have to be the magical realm gatekeeper
How?

>>44983345
Oh well you know I had to include the most popular type of bard, for archival's sake. If you wanted you could play a really awkward, hideous bard who can never manage to get laid, but then again self-insertion is frowned upon.

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>>44983315
>Overpowered manwhore

You don't have to be the magical realm gatekeeper, but it helps. The advantage of incorporating plenty of things into your magical realm is that it's easier to bring other people into it and therefore make everyone equally uncomfortable.

>>44983208
>A trope is something that everybody has seen/played so many times that it has become boring.
No, that's a cliche.

Barbarian is a nobleman who happens to have a short temper.
Many upper-class gatherings have been ruined by him laying the smackdown on no-manners servants and party-goers alike.

>>44983099
>Bard is an uncharismatic cold jerk who couldn't use diplomacy, or any charisma based skill for that matter without breaking character.

Aren't bards somewhat centered around being personable rather than disagreeable and unpleasant to be around casually?

>>44983453
Okay. The nuance is lost on me, but the title said 'clichés' so I guess I'm still covered.

>>44983538
>The nuance is lost on me
Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting.

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>>44983472
Nice.

>>44983501

Depends. You can easily play an abrasive, arrogant cunt of a bard who is a musical genius and his performances can only be described as wonders made manifest.

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>>44983099
Oh she can feel it, can't she. Yeah bitch I'm onto you. Those little bits of wine you have at the 'refined' elf parties, the hours spent practicing until your hands ache to dull the throbbing inside, the endless parade of kings and queens in other lands who find you amusing, but not worth keeping as you scowl and glower. You didn't pick Wizard with some song skills. Or a Rogue with an interesting double life. Or even a Fighter, fighting to be refined. You. Picked. BARD.

You knew

*EXACTLY*

what you were getting into.

>>44983599
That post chain started good, then degenerated into shit by the last two.

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>>44983472
This is why there is no Barbarian class.

There is only Berserker, and its only creed is Wrath.

>>44983501
Being snobby doesn't necessarily mean she's uncharismatic. Maybe she's only good with fellow stuck-up toffs, and only acts like a jerk to the ruffians she's adventuring with.

Besides that, in 5e there's plenty of things a Bard can do to be useful outside of diplomacy.

I like your idea OP.

>>44983558
I had this discussion before actually, but I see clichés as 'tropes that people don't like'.
A dragon kidnapping a princess, is that a device that a writer can rely on, or stereotyped and trite? Depends on who perceives it, right?
I feel the nuance is mostly subjective.

Rogue is a dirty cop who plants evidence, sneaks into places without warrants, and occasionally vigilantes.

>>44983647
Personally, I don't think cliches even have to be bad. They just need to be stereotyped and overdone, which doesn't automatically mean the thing in question is shit if the cliche is executed well.

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>>44983627
It's a fine idea but it needs to have strong substance behind it. She'd die screaming 10 minutes after meeting my party, because they're all a bunch of freakish freeloaders who THRIVE on ripping people down a few pegs and bullying the hogshit out of them when their reaction is to be an unpleasant shit about everything. Even during a fight. Especially during a fight.

>>44983648
>Rogue is a dirty cop

heard you talking shit like I wouldn't notice

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>>44983099
>Be Neutral Good Bard
>Is more concern with lore, history and the usefulness of both
>Give no shits to charisma or music
>Is more disciplined than the wizard and the paladin combined
>Leads group into adventures so interesesting and rich that everyone is enlightned
>Proceed to be one of the best characters of the entire game
Every. Fucking. Time.
I have a player that plays bard, and he don't have charisma-based skills at all. He's kinda awesome.
>MFW

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>>44983695
Good. That's proper Bard.

>>44983099
> She gets really angry when anyone makes a sexual remark about her.
Why would anyone make a sexual remark about an unassuming girl who's also an antisocial cunt? Surely there are better girls in the campaign.

>>44983703
I'm sure Zinfandel is a Tolkein character.

>>44983710
this basically

also playing music and being rudely antisocial and nothing else makes you a shitty musician not a Bard

>>44983099
>characters that break cliches
Uh oh. You just made a mistake. /tg/ gets REALLY buttflustered whenever someone discusses characters like this.

Like if you made a Dwarf who doesn't drink or craft, neckbeards on this board will say that your character is shit and that you shouldn't be playing a Dwarf because that's what Dwarf is.

>>44983380
top kek

>>44983671

>Here's my daughter, Annabelle.
>She's a musical prodigy, but needs to see and experience the world to kickstart her carreer.
>So that's where you come in
>Good luck!
>Btw, if you fuck this up, enjoy the legions of bounty hunters and assassins I will send after you.

>>44983647
No, it's entirely a matter of execution. If you confine yourself to a one-sentence descriptor, almost anything can be seen as a cliché, or trying too hard to be different, or whichever qualifier a pissy faggot chooses to apply to it. A work is a work because there is some meat beyond the barest outline to it.

>>44983099
Have your entire party play as bards, call your group Bards of Canada

I once managed to play a CE Rogue in a 3.5 campaign of mostly good or neutral characters, without being a team killing fuckwit.
He was a con artist who got tired of the city he was in so he tricked a group of adventurers into working with him with promises of fame and glory, in return for a small fee.

This fighter has all his extensive training, weapons, armor and knowledge about fighting for one single purpose: to not get hit.

He's a whiny weak pussy that clads himself with the thickest armor and intends to destroy his enemy before they can attack, because he just can't stand getting wounded in any way.

>>44983099
We had a paladin that was affraid of the dark. Or the cleric who was affraid of death (and undead). The fighter that couldn't stand snakes and ran from them. The wizard that refused to cast magic on average people; average being everything not a wizard.
Damn. My group is sick. But our games are just too damn funny.

>>44983175
It's a fun thought exercise. You know, FUN?

>>44983099
The barbarian isn't a dumb savage who likes to smash things, instead he's a strong but shy fellow who is simply overwhelmed by the civilized world and has no idea how to express himself in a civilized fashion.

>>44983380
Zoz'd to Oz

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>>44983768

>>44983730
Because you need to be realistic about fantasy characters.

Ugh, that.

My last campaign has most Dwarves working as Carnies or other brownish blue-collar jobs. Truckers, Carnies, Mechanics, that kind of thing. They were essentially white trash. But they were still definitely Dwarves.

>>44983616
>This is why there is no Barbarian class
There are other games than D&D

>>44983648
Fuck yeah, would play.

>>44983710
>Why would anyone make a sexual remark about an unassuming girl
Because she is a girl. She has female genitalia. And amusing this is a fantasy setting, she would probably visit some crappy taverns or encounter some unwashed brutes.
Men who don't know her could make sexual remarks. Even men who know her and don't like her could easily say something along the lines of: 'she's a bitch but I'd do her anyway' or 'all she needs is a good fuck to loosen up' or 'she's such a bitch that your tongue would freeze to her cunt if you'd tried to lick it'.
Seriously, you lack imagination my friend, we can always find a way to make sexual comments about a girl.

Nobody ever stated she was even antisocial, just snobbish, prude and determined. That could almost even be sexy in a weird way.

>>44983730
I know, I'm aware.
I always assume we could all accept that this is just a brainstorm and we could move past the 'you're doing it wrong'-posts.
I'm always wrong

>>44983848
Then why would he ever go on adventures?

>>44984246
To kill anything that could do him harm.

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>>44983099
I have a concept of a bard that was a prosopographer, seeking the link between his family and a long forgotten hero of the kingdom that seemed to disappear from one moment to another in history. He decided to become an adventurer to find new information from the locations he visited.

He was a scholar and rather charismatic, but his interests were purely academic.

>>44983710
>>44983722
Man, the best way to actually get sexual remarks done about you is to be an antisocial cunt. Even an ugly one, 'cause there is no one who will go full white knight for you.

>>44983208
Because people so often "break the cliché" by doing the exact opposite in just as shitty a way that doing that is, at this point, its own trope.

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The bard is a lawful evil orkish baryton-noble who specializes in early music. He's on a quest to gather ancient instruments and musical codices for his witch mistress' troupe.

He hardly ever uses his powers because singing in a mouldy dungeon would put his voice at risk.

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>>44983903

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>>44983315
>>Remember, the bard doesn't have to be the magical realm gatekeeper.
I don't want to play in a game where I can't trap people in a box playing as a rapping cockney nutjob. Torturing them with songs about eels getting up inside them. If that's what you're suggesting.

>>44985290
This cover demands context.

>>44983175
This anon doesn't actually have a gaming group.

>>44985457
Why does he have a giant lifesaver glued to his face?

>>44983472
IT'S CHOWDAH, SAY IT RIGHT!!

>>44985290
Bards cannot be lawful in any possible way. At least, not in D&D.

>>44985539
chow-DARE.

>>44985532
>>Why does he have a giant lifesaver glued to his face?
It grants him solo polo vision.

The Paladin that has fallen a long time ago. He constantly abuses his image as an actual Paladin to receive hospitality of common people and find himself a bed for the night. If someone refuses he threatens to use detect evil.

>>44985464
They're clearly singing together.

>>44985721
Even those skulls are singing. This is a musical now.

>>44983730
>Like if you made a Dwarf who doesn't drink or craft, neckbeards on this board will say that your character is shit and that you shouldn't be playing a Dwarf because that's what Dwarf is.

I've met that guy. He's the guy who says " you don't talk like a black guy."

I hate that guy.

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>>44983175

Yes, but, I'd actually play that character.

How about a not terribly ambitious generalist, who doesn't really into music, drama, or social skills, but fakes it, because Bard is the default generalist class*, and he thinks it's expected of him? Adventuring is interesting, and pays well, otherwise he'd just be a clerk in an alchemy shop or something.

*(Except I guess Rogue is the default "little bit of everything" class these days...)

>>44985961
Unfortunately you can't go too far at the everyman stuff because they're going to be pulling off some very uneverymanlike feats.

Like....who IS he?

>>44983647
The problem is all the shitty subversions like "The Dragon prefers eating princesses" or "The rescuer is awarded with marriage to the princess"

Just play it straight: the dragon doesn't care, the princess was picked randomly, and the rescuer uses the dragon to forcibly convert the local populace.

>>44985761
>necromancer revue show

You're sure to recognize some of its stars in every city.

The bard is happily married and very much devoted to his wife. In addition to his musical skills he's also a talented painter, and enjoys painting portraits of her in his downtime. He took up adventuring as a temporary job in hopes of somehow making enough money for them to comfortably raise a family. They share letters, with him always sending her tales of his journey when the party is in a decent sized city.

>>44985542
Why not?

Trained, professional musician from a strict background.

Storyteller that is sworn to uphold tradition and constancy.

Two easy examples off the top of my head.

>>44986048
A knight did that. Him and his wife pooled their time and wrote ar romance about how he toured Europe and punched people in the face in her name.

>>44986075
I think travelling musicians were considered outlaws in some parts of Europe. It was a job you picked up after you had lost everything else.

>>44986131
You're a musician with a license/permit of some sort.

>>44986115
Do you have a source of that? I'd love to read more.

>>44986153
It was a styrian noble, but I don't remember his or her name, sadly. And the details of the story I can recall are pretty generic - I think she's called "Lady Venus" in the story and he's wearing her gown over his armour during the quest.

>>44983099
OP knows the struggle of classical musicians. Even great performers can have shitty social skills. That stereotype about musicians all being social butterflies is a big reason why I almost never play bards. And don't get me started about how many aspects of musicianship are glazed over or ignored outright in RPGs.

>snobby
We're not all snobby...

>>44986115
>Europe and punched people in the face in her name
Sounds rather Don Quichotte.

>>44986723
>We're not all snobby...
It clearly wasn't meant as a generalisation. And I know virtually nothing about classical musicians actually, so I guess some stereotypes hit close to home...
I do know about artists though, and their shitty social skills

>>44986723
This.

>Play bard
>Decide back story is a poet tasked by his master to adventure so he can bring back fresh material to write about
>Not very social
>In fact, his shyness borders on Asperger level of incapability of talking to people
>Make it obvious IC that the character's uncomfortable talking to anyone if it's not a performance
>DM and party try to force character to be the face
>Every time a battle ends the DM starts going "MAYHAP THERE'S A SONG THE BARD COULD EXTOLL?"
>Don't even use a fucking instrument for god's sake
>Make it clear my character's a poet during character moments, not an actor or musician
>"Sing us the song about the bird who achieved freedom!"
>ok that one made me chuckle
>Still, annoying as fuck getting that from the players all the time, one of them was even asking why I didn't play a stereotypical bard outside of the game
>Get decently far into the campaign
>Character has IC completed his first poem and has been asked to read it for the duke at one of his parties
>Rest of the party isn't invited, they complain
>"oh I'll make sure you get in."
>Don't and say I tried
>Party tries to raid the function
>They get kicked out and spend one night in jail for breaking into the duke's residence
>justice.gif

>>44985542
Sure they can. Maybe if you're stuck back in 3.eugh, but the rest of us have moved on. Even the people that didn't think 3.pleasekillmenow was a massive pile of shit are playing Pathfinder.

You do realize that the rules are different with each edition, right?

>>44983099
Only thing I noticed is that her posture is shit. Fix your damn endpin child!

>>44983315
>Gonzo journalist

Hunter S. Thompson in DnD when?

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>>44983710
I dont think places where adventurers spend most of their time have a lot of competition walking around anon.

>Pussy is pussy
>Dick is dick

and so on

>>44983099
Cellist here, can't imagine taking my instrument with me anywhere vaguely dangerous let alone into a dungeon.

>>44983647
the actual defining characteristic of a cliche, and not just the consensus on the colloquial use of it, is that it is a thing that has lost its meaning. Shit like the hero being "the chosen one" where there appears to be no actual consequence to being the chosen one other than it just flags a character to a reader (and not other characters) as the protagonist, that's a cliche because despite having form and a title to it, it doesn't actually mean or do anything. A trope is like a code, one idea that signifies the use of others. A cliche is like jargon, it doesn't signify anything.

>>44988359
Some cellists play it taller and some play it flatter, nothing wrong with that.

Her bowgrip, though, I mean geez.

>>44987140
Yes, it was a work in the genre the Don got too damn much of.

>>44988590
Shit, didn't even see that. Yeah, lots of things wrong there, but it looks like she's in a fairly professional orchestra, so it may work for her well enough. I for one could not play like that.
>>44988547
Clarinetist/Cellist here, and I completely agree. Hell, I rarely take my instrument out of it's case outdoors. Unless it's my marching instrument. That thing has seen some shit.

>>44988547
>>44988749
Her parents got money, and she's aware that she isn't on an adventure for musical pursuits, so I'm sure she has a cheaper backup instrument or two for the ride. If she ever played them during the adventure, she would give the excuse that the music isn't great because she's not playing her A-game instrument though.

Honestly I thought I'd get a lot of new ideas from you guys, but I feel like I've mostly been explaining this character that I came up with in 10 seconds. And now I actually want to play her

>>44983647
>The problem is all the shitty subversions like "The Dragon prefers eating princesses" or "The rescuer is awarded with marriage to the princess"

How the fuck are those subversions? Have you ever read a fairy tale?

>>44989870
Meant to reply to >>44986003

>>44989869
Go for it, man.
If just for strategy's sake, though, a cello would probably not be the best option. It would take a turn to uncase the thing, another turn to set up some sort of seat of appropriate height and one more to tighten the bow, rosin it and warm up the fingers slightly, if she's hurrying.

>>44983599
>slutty elf ears, guy in a dress, SvtfoE, and... is that a panel from Waterworks?
Why am I never around for threads like this?

>>44988547
Another cellist anon here. I can barely imagine leaving my instrument alone at all. Someone in orchestra broke the bridge on mine by tripping on the goddamn endpin. Maybe I could see taking an instrument somewhere nasty if you've got something reasonably light and durable, like a woodwind or brass instrument.

Also, musicians in fantasy rarely have cases for their instruments. As if they're going to carry the thing through rain and snow and somehow the varnish is going to be OK after that kind of treatment, not to mention the wood itself warping, cracking, or breaking the strings. And you rarely see them tune up or practice either. Plus other assorted complaints.

>>44989869
>I'm sure she has a cheaper backup instrument or two for the ride
Best of luck carrying three cellos at once. That's going to be a pain even before counting your adventuring kit. Might as well stock up on strings, bow-hair, and rosin while you're at it. As a rule of thumb, I'd recommend picking an instrument that you can find in a marching band. Or just be a vocalist or something. Either way you want something you can plausibly travel with.

>>44990396
Ah, yes, similar thing happened to me once, while I was off changing they managed to knock a chair over on the poor thing.
>Someone in orchestra broke the bridge on mine by tripping on the goddamn endpin.
This horror story always goes through my head when I set the cello down. The safest thing to do is retract the endpin while it's on its side

>>44990396
I was thinking more like a clarinet. (I'm sorry clarinet people, but in my mind it has always been the most grey/stuckup/snobby instrument)
And my point was that you leave the a-game instrument at home where it's safe, the backup instruments are only there to practice daily.
I do have enough insight to realise that three cellos wouldn't be the ideal situation.

>>44990833
In my experience, it was the flutes, followed by the clarinets, with the french horns and violins tying for third.

But every trombone I've ever met has been chill as fuck with maybe one exception.

>>44986075
Just because you're strict, does not mean you're lawful.

>>44991009
Depends on how the strictness plays out. For example, the bard could have been trained in classical styles, and considers anything not "properly" done to be wrong. Not upholding the law of the land but upholding the "laws" of music.

>>44991009
I mean, I think a better question is why does a bard have to be chaotic?

>>44983099
The very idea of a cellist who is not an inveterate cock/pussy hound is an absurdity in itself.

>>44992286
>be cellist
>be not an inveterate pussy hound
I need to try harder.

>>44993746
It is harder than I thought to come up with a good pun about pussy hounds and cellos.

>>44983099
A bard that is not a master seducer but in fact, a rapist.

>>44995616
I suppose that wouldn't be terribly surprising, considering with all the mind-warping magic they have access to they don't really have to deal with conventional consent if they don't want to.

>>44983099
>she's a snobby, grey girl with an expensive musical education.
>implying that's not a cliche
Being a musician myself, having been involved in music education for my entire schooling career and having known many musicians myself, this is very much a cliche.

>>44992286
Really? I thought the stereotype was that cellists were really shy/quiet. I met some people a while ago who used to play in an orchestra, and when I told them I played cello they giggled and were all "Oh, that explains it."