/wodg/&/cofd/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

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Fucking Claimed

>>44668458

I mean, when you think about it, that's a noble goal of its own.

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I'm writing up a VtR2e version of the Tzimisce (based on the V20 and DA20 write ups) for a fellow player in a game I might be joining. It was originally going to just be a quick write up, but I got carried away.

I'm focusing on the aspects of nobility and appreciation for beauty primarily, and admittedly less on the ties to the land. Their fleshcrafting is a reflection of their alien sensibilities, and not necessarily horrifying. "Universal Pictures Dracula as a Toreador that likes David Cronenberg." I'm trying to think of a good Bane replacement, since the whole "sleep in soil of your birth" thing doesn't really encourage any specific playstyle. At the same time, nabbing the Spina drawback is too vaguely worded.

I'd also like feedback on Viccissitude and the new Protean Aspects I suggest. My version of Viccissitude is a series of Protean devotions mostly playing off of Predatory and Unnatural Aspect (2 and 4). Tzimisce in 2e get to shapeshift for free, get additional Aspects, and can keep one Aspect active at any time. Zulo form is kind of difficult to do in 2e; Unnatural Aspect is already just 2 vitae to activate four Aspects all at once, and Chiroptaeran form's wings already come standard. So instead it gives one more of each type of Aspect, and allows the tzimisce to stay in that form for as long as they like. Since going out as a terrifying monster is a masquerade breach and also makes it hard to socialize, this is mostly for flavour.

I'm most pleased with my version of Body Impolitic, which uses Retainer rules. It no longer requires giving up an arm, either.

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Well hi there folk! Name's Bill. See I'm here cause a lot of you are going around causing problems. I'm gonna need you to stop doing that.

See you're in way over your heads folks and that's a problem. And I don't like problems.

Now that we got that settled, I gotta run. So long kids and remember to avoid that creepy alleyway tomorrow!

>>44668591
FUCK YOU ANGEL BILL I DO WHAT I WANT AND TAKE NO SHIT FROM YOUR SO CALLED """GOD""" MACHINE

>>44668589
>appreciation for beauty primarily, and admittedly less on the ties to the land.
But Tzimisce ARE "Vampires as old Eastern European lords with fundamental ties to their land". Their Bane is based around it, their sorcery is based around it... that's specifically the Vampire cliche they occupy.

Not to mention if they're Ventrue, then they've got Animalism, and Animalism 5 is already built around that schtick.

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>>44668604
Hey kid, don't have a heart attack, you're not 126 yet. I hate that thing as much as you do. If it's been causing you so much of a problem, then maybe we can make a deal and I can help you with it.

>>44668660
No Mages welcome

I'm now imaging that the God Machine was made to keep Bill Cipher and his yokel of friends out of dimension.

They're going around patching up tears in reality that he could use to crawl through and take over.

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>>44668650
The original Tzimisce are. I'm updating them. This is a different take on it. They still are the noble lords in their manor houses, but they no longer need to sleep on dirt. Also, I'm not worrying about Koldunic Sorcery, just Viccissitude.

They're the landed gentry, but by choice, not design.

I don't like Molucusians and that character type. Besides, the entire point of Dracula the book was that he wanted to move away from his ancestral home.

>>44668589
>If some of their own origin stories are to be
believed, the Tzimisce clan has a connection to the famous Vlad the Impaler, more commonly
known as Dracula. Blaspheming God, she was cursed and became a vampire
Did you just make Vlad the Impaler a girl? What is this, Fate/Stay Night?

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>>44668732
Shit. No, I just did a find-and-replace to make my pronouns consistent.
Trying to be better about not using "they" since it's against the style guide.

I might work in a ze, though...

>>44668589
>Tzimisce are normally not Ordo Dracul
>When the Ordo Dracul are the Vampire Mad Science Experimenter guys
>when they have a fucking Coil of the Voivode

>>44668756
>I might work in a ze, though...
I will murder you if you do such a thing.

Tzimisce prefer to be called it. Because they are inhuman fucking monsters of death and terror.

Do you like Werewolves?
Do you like Werewolves in an apocalyptic blood opera while $Metal_Band plays?
...Do you like LARPing?

If you answered Yes to all three of those questions, the WtA Mind's Eye Theatre Kickstarter has launched!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bynightstudios/minds-eye-theatre-werewolf-the-apocalypse

Look at it! Or don't! Whatever!

>>44668756
>Active voice rules. Active voice excites, titillates and arouses. Active voice grips the reader. Active voice is alternative. It's cutting-edge. It wears flannel and bondage gear at the same time. It has more tattoos than the Hell's Angels and the Yakuza combined. Use it.
Jesus fucking Christ this is cringey. Even tongue-in-cheek it's cringey.

>>44668767
You don't understand, this anon hates just about everything that's prewritten there. I mean, he made the fucking catgirl bloodline for fuck's sake.

>>44668767
Yeah, especially after writing up Viccissitude I really need to change that. It was also based on the impression that Anoushka, not Dracula, was the founder of the Ordo, but that seems to be changed in 2e.

Originally my thought was that they like the "let's become better at this vampire thing" aspect, but mostly think of the Ordo as nerds.

>>44668811
Gonna do it :D

But seriously I'm avoiding the whole "always on the Path of Metamorphosis" thing. Although at the same time I'm having a hard time justifying how a Tzimisce can both use Viccissitude and be Humanity 10. Sure, they can make pretty flesh sculptings, but it gets into that whole plastic surgery thing. Then again, they are meant to be transhumanists.

>>44668862
Gets the point across, though.
Plus, it is a White Wolf style guide.

>>44668891
Prewritten?
What makes you think I hate everything?
People also forget the Catgirl bloodline wasn't actually my idea.

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>>44668815
I wish they'd skipped Apocalypse and went straight to Ascension.

>>44668917
>Gets the point across, though.
>Plus, it is a White Wolf style guide.
When you're telling other people how to write you usually don't want the reader laughing at how badly you write.

>>44668917
>Although at the same time I'm having a hard time justifying how a Tzimisce can both use Viccissitude and be Humanity 10.
They can't. They may be able to use Vicissitude to bypass some of the downsides of low Humanity, but being a Tzimisce and doing Tzimisce things is going to result in low Humanity.

All the more reason for them to be primarily Ordo Dracul, since that Covenant's whole schtick is about getting around the downsides of being a monster (especially by doing morally fucked-up experiments).

>>44668917
>Yeah, especially after writing up Viccissitude I really need to change that. It was also based on the impression that Anoushka, not Dracula, was the founder of the Ordo, but that seems to be changed in 2e.
>Originally my thought was that they like the "let's become better at this vampire thing" aspect, but mostly think of the Ordo as nerds.
I would think Tzimisce would mostly be found in the more radical sections of their R&D Branch. Sworn of the Dying Light, I think they're called?

>>44668767
Rewrote the section:
>The Covenants that boast the most Tzimisce are the Ordo and the Crone. Both are strongly focused on how the vampire condition is beyond human, and this aligns rather well with the beliefs of the Voivode. The Dragon after all was founded by their potential progenitor, and beauty to be found in better mastering the vampiric condition is something the artists can use to better enhance their Viccissitude. The Crone eschews the traditionalism of the bloodline for a more naturalistic beauty, but still works towards strengthening what the Kindred are, and those few Tzimisce who join the Acolytes and forgo their Humanity for Cruac exemplify why they can sometimes be called “Fiends”.

>>44669139
I'll admit I haven't really looked over the Ordo. In 1e OR 2e. In 1e the Coils weren't something I ever wanted to bother with, since it was so convoluted to get. After about three of them it became way too costly.
I haven't read most of the Blood Sorcery because I play Unaligned or Carthian.

>>44669157
Wouldn't know, didn't read the Ordo book.

>>44668862
>>Active voice rules. Active voice excites, titillates and arouses. Active voice grips the reader. Active voice is alternative. It's cutting-edge. It wears flannel and bondage gear at the same time. It has more tattoos than the Hell's Angels and the Yakuza combined. Use it.

That sounds like it was written in 1994.

I guess active voice is also cooler than a 3600 baud modem, free AOL and Compuserve, and bootleg New Kids on the Block tapes.

>>44668927

That's probably next year, or the year after that. It also seems like MET is gonna be plugged into Dracula's Big Score.

>>44668756

If you're working on fitting the style guide and writing more professionally, another thing you need to do for your writeups is cut the waste words. You make a lot of tangents and digressions that must be cut with no mercy. I bet you could cut a whole page worth down just by that alone.

>>44669242

I think they're still using Justin Achilli's style guide from the White Wolf days, so parts of it probably were written in 1994.

>>44669250
Oh, I expect Ascension to be next. I'm just glad they learned from the clusterfuck that was ALL THE COOL SHIT that they wanted to do for MET:VtM and are shooting smaller with WtA.

I'm just excited for Ascension since that's our LARP group's plan to do after our Masquerade game finishes up. Though we've got time, we're at the halfway point.

>>44669250
>I bet you could cut a whole page worth down just by that alone.
I don't doubt it. At the same time one thing I've realized since the days of the Nekomata Bloodline are that I'm not restricted by wordcount, so I can make things pop and go into more detail.

So why is there no Feats of Strength in the NWoD books?

Isn't that kinda important when it's referenced in the Vampire book?

>>44669188
>Wouldn't know, didn't read the Ordo book.
Read their book. It's one of the better supplements in VtR.

>>44669461
Same reason they don't have the soul loss Conditions in the CofD "core" book.

They know you already have the GMC rules update and forgot to copy paste them

How are you supposed to awaken your avatar?

>>44669494
Have a wrestling spirit DDT him into the supernal

>>44669488
It's not in the GMC update either. The only table is in 1e of nWoD.

What the hell? I blame Dave.

>>44669539
No, that puts it to sleep. Possibly forever.

>>44669544
Clearly Neall needs another firing.

Stew's just put up a blog article with some prelim rules for playing as Pure that also give a bit more mechanical info for using them as antagonists as well.

Leath, Stew and I put our heads together then Leath wrote these up for one of the eras in the Dark Eras companion, but they're not period-limited.

http://theonyxpath.com/playing-the-pure-werewolf-the-forsaken/

So guys how are you supposed to awaken your avatar

>>44669792
Have a wrestling spirit DDT him into the supernal

>>44669773
Fuck yes!

I love you guys.

>>44668591
Fucking cringe no wonder this board gets shit on by /b/ and /pol/

>>44669885
>Roleplaying on a roleplaying board is bad
Go back to /v/ and enjoy your lack of video games

>>44669885
If you find that cringe, how are you even on a website that has advertisements of underage cartoon characters trying to sell you masturbation aids?

>>44669817
thats wrong anon

If one of your players was playing a demigod what would their sanity stat be, Integrity or something like Vengeance?

>>44669967
why would it be vengeance?
it would be Dominion

>>44670027
Vengeful god?

The hell is Dominion from?

Which gameline would best fit Mr Dark from Something Wicked This Way Comes?

>>44670134
Changeling.

He could be a Possessed, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au_tL122R6g
Something tells me you could make the Weasels into a Privateer group.

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>tfw was going to play a game of Mummy with Gentlemen Gamer and a few others from OPP forums a while ago but plans fell through cause 2 people didn't fully understand the game
>tfw will never EVER play a game of Mummy
>tfw I barely understand the game at all

I just wanted to play a Mummy based on the concept of "Snake in the Grass" and commission art of my character...

What do you even do in Mummy? Listen to your cult?

pic related reeeeeeee

>>44670175
I think Changeling would work quite well for him, he's always giving people the chance be cured of an ailment at a price or work for him, maybe he's one of the True Fae.

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Redid the Bane. Still a bit too fiddly for my tastes. Not so much one Bane as a lot of little ones.

>Bloodline Bane: As with all of the Lords, aloofness comes natural to the voivode, and as with their parent clan, they lose Touchstones at Humanity 7 or lower. Additionally, the desire for polite discourse and appreciation of beauty has worked its way into the Tzimisce curse. Acting against proper etiquette and decorum requires spending a point of Willpower, and doing so against someone who hasn’t first acted with hostility (through insults, use of overt Hard Leverage, or initiating combat) caps the Voivode’s dice pools at her Humanity so long as she chooses to act in so unbecoming a fashion. The Fiends also find it hard to resist their Beasts lashing out at impropriety, and when resisting Frenzy brought about by insults and rudeness, their dice pools are similarly capped at Humanity, unless they choose to Ride the Wave.

>Tzimisce that take on additional Banes tend to manifest those dealing with manners, like Invitation or Blood of the Unwilling, though the pauperesque Grave Soil Bane has effected more of the Old Clan than they are comfortable with.

I should add sucking tentacles to the Aspect list... Predatory or Unnatural I'm not sure of.

>>44670417
One suggestion someone gave me is that they should have something that requires them to lord over others. Particularly they have to keep more control over their Touchstones than normal. I couldn't think of a way to word that, though.

I'll admit I do also just like "creepy polite".

>>44669773
>http://theonyxpath.com/playing-the-pure-werewolf-the-forsaken/

It looks pretty good, although the Ivory Claws' Sacred Prey ans Siskur-Dah conditions are a little underwhelming.

More importantly, where are the Pure's Tribal Vows???

>>44669773

Thanks. It's always great to get supplemental material.

Do the Pure have a similarly antagonist relationship with Helios and helions as the Forsaken?

>>44670191

Run your cult and play power games with the world, get Relics and Vestiges, uncover the hidden secrets of your past, that kind of thing. If you're in a party of other Mummies, you also get the added bonus of squabbling about things in the past that you remember, and also blast at Ahmkats with your Choir powers.

>>44670765
Presumably they don't have any, since they aren't taking up the Urfarah's duty. Although Predator Kings do tend to Hunt humans.

>>44670921

I believe they had Tribal Vows in 1e.

>>44670946
Oh, vows not sacred prey.
Probably the same as 1e, then.

Currently Tribal vows for the Pure are the same as 1e.

>>44670795
That's not something we've explored as yet, so dunno.

>>44671044
>Currently Tribal vows for the Pure are the same as 1e.

For those of us who only have W:tF 2e, are the Pure's Tribal Vows available anywhere?

>>44671087
>For those of us who only have W:tF 2e

Tell me your secrets, time traveller

>>44671044

I saw Stew released you Gift system on the blog. Great work.

Wasn't there also supposed to be a Rite system? Did I miss it?

>>44668862

But the passive voice is really useful in certain situations. Sometimes you don't want emphasis on the ball being thrown, but that the ball is in the air, or that the ball is important and not the action of throwing it.

>>44671087
Off the top of my head, it's:
- Firetouched: Do not lie.
- Ivory Claws: Treat no impure werewolf as your brother/sister/equal.
- Predator Kings: Use nothing crafted by human hands.

>>44671132
>Wasn't there also supposed to be a Rite system? Did I miss it?

I haven't gotten round to it yet.

Currently working on a last-minute tweak to a bit of The Pack. Don't worry, it won't delay it.

>>44669817
>avatar
>supernal

son...

>>44671132
>I saw Stew released you Gift system on the blog. Great work.
>great work
>check out CofD for soul loss mechanics!
>there isn't any

more like sloppy m i rite?

>>44671266
Is it possible - not likely, I'm not asking that, but actually POSSIBLE - for Forsaken and Pure to be in a Pack together? Or will there be inherent metaphysical conflict?

>>44671358
It is possible, yes.

There's even an example in The Pack.

It's just... very very rare, for obvious reasons.

Anyone got that thread for primal urge 10 werewolves on the OPP forums?

>>44671500
Are you seriously so lazy that you ask someone else to find you a link, instead of go there and open it yourself?

>>44669885
Go and stay go. Forever.

>>44671658
>Are you seriously so lazy that you need someone to find you something?
Clearly he is unaware of how to find it, anon. Not everyone knows where things are. Stop being a shit.

>>44671500
Here you go http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/798541-alpha-predators-the-strongest-werewolves

>>44669773
Will The Pure more "friendly" than in the first edition? Otherwise I can hardly imagine Pure as player characters
.

>>44670765
>>44671266

Here are the Tribal Bans of the Fire-Touched and Predator Kings from the 1e Pure book. Although the Ivory Claws have a number of behavioral rules, I cannot ascertain their actual Tribal Ban.

It would be really great if the blog could include a simple and clear entry of the 2e Pure Tribal Vows:

Fire Touched: The Izidakh have a tribal prohibition against letting untrue statements lie. That ban is a cornerstone of their faith, and thus plays a greater role in the day-to-day behavior of the tribe than, say, most of the tribal bans of the Forsaken. How often does a Blood Talon really have to consider whether a surrender is one he would accept, after all? But in the end, the ban is simply a tribal vow, and therefore most Fire-Touched do not suffer any immediate penalty from violating it. The tribe as a whole, however, takes this vow very seriously. Lying is a sin regardless of how moral the werewolf in question is, and the elders of the tribe are happy to enforce the ban in any number of painful ways.

Predator Kings: Honor Nothing of Human Craft
Sehe Nu Lu’u Thim. The Predator King werewolves, by nature of their tribal ban, are the most removed and distant from the human lives they once lived. To be a Predator King is to suffer under a spiritual ban forbidding any of the tribe to ever wield tools created by human hands or shelter in havens crafted by human labor. This ban is not simply a ban on cities and civilization but a powerful declaration that none of the Ninna Farakh are ever to respect human workings if the Predator Kings wish to keep Dire Wolf’s favor. If a Predator King lives within a city, rides the subway, catches a taxi, uses a telephone, wears storebought clothes or even smokes a cigarette, the werewolf is violating the ban laid upon her by Huzuruth himself. Predator Kings can use tools created by werewolves, even the Forsaken or the Bale Hounds, but the Ninna Farakh may not use or benefit from anything crafted by humans.

>>44671854
But... how hard could it be?
Go to the Onyx Path home page, click Forums, click Werewolf: the Forsaken, click the thread that has the name that includes "strongest werewolves".
DONE.

>>44671897
>Predator Kings: Honor Nothing of Human Craft

Cue long philosophical and religious debates whereas Wolf blooded count as human...

>>44671954
>>44671266

The Vows could certainly use some tweaking or clarification for 2e.

More importantly, the Pure book has a long list of how an Ivory Claw is supposed to act, but doesn't actually describe their Ban. It's very annoying.

>>44669494
First your Avatar needs to find you. Second you have to go crazy and realize how the world works

>>44671854
He knows its on the OPP forums. If he bothered to check first he'd see it on the front page.

>>44671393
Hey Chris what are the stats for throwing spears in 2e?

I can't find them.

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>>44668732
Not even Fate made Vlad a chick.

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>>44672227

>>44672417
That's not Fate though, is it? But man. The Japanese LOVE genderbending, huh?

>>44672227
Hot damn that's one sexy vampire.

>>44668732
To be fair, if Dracula was a Tzimisce...

>>44672544
Yeah, he's bad as fuck. Motherfucker regal and shit.

>>44672526

Of course not. Fate is shit. It's from knock off Rance. The historical figures are only gender bent so you can fuck them.

>>44672544
Funny enough, he hates the vampire legacy associated with him, because he's Catholic and shit(He'd probably be Lancea). But his vampire powers are fucking sick.

>>44672575
>regal
>tacky earrings

he looks generic white haired evil anime guy desu.

>>44672658
He's actually kind of a good guy.

How would you do an instrumentality plot in cofd?

>>44672210
If you want javelins, they'll be in Dark Eras.

>>44672909

Like the Eva type or the classic SF type?

>>44671266
>>44673417

How does Werewolf 2e's Hunter Aspect mechanics work with the Pure?

Are Pure denied a Hunter's Aspect since they have no Auspice?

>>44673427
Eva. Full on GNR, end of the world, manmade deity bullshit.

>>44673615
Currently yes, the Pure do not have a Hunter's Aspect.

That might change when in-depth coverage of the Pure is done.

>>44672635
Dude could take on 5-6 heroic spirits on his own. Thats enough fire power to end a country.

>>44674207

You'd need to find a way to fuse spirits and souls, I suppose. Then break down the borders between the Supernal, Shadow, Lower Depths, Arcadia, Astral, and pretty much every realm in the setting.

Alright, a mortal imbibes vitae, but is not ghouled. Can they use that vitae to heal their wounds or enhance their attributes?

Any of the three systems.

>>44674277
>Currently yes, the Pure do not have a Hunter's Aspect.
>That might change when in-depth coverage of the Pure is done.

That sadly makes the Pure far less scary.

Will the Pure receive a more in-depth and "official" 2e treatment in any currently scheduled products?

>>44674473
How does a mortal imbibe vitae without being ghouled?

The definition of a ghoul is a mortal who has imbibed vitae.

>>44674581
In VtR (nWoD 1e), a mortal is only ghouled if the vampire spends Willpower specifically to ghoul the mortal. So someone could drink vitae without becoming a ghoul.

The book explains that this is common for vampires to do in order to create Vinculum in a lot of mortals so they have a loyal group of people to feed from.

Which covenant/tribe/order would YOU join?

Not your favorite, but which one could you see yourself claiming membership in?

>>44674490
Don't worry, the Pure will have their own advantages.

AFAIK the only revealed Forsaken product on the schedule currently is The Pack, and the Pure aren't getting in-depth treatment in that.

>>44674581
Vampires need to spend a willpower point to make a ghoul. It they can never be made by accident.

>>44674754

I hope we see a more in-depth treatment of the Pure and Helios and helions sooner rather than later. If of comparable quality to the recent Demon Storyteller's Guide, a similar book for Werewolf would also be great.

However, I really shouldn't get too greedy. At least Werewolf 2e has actually been released. I'm beginning to think we'll never see Mage, Promethean and Changeling 2e.

>>44674673
>covenant
Carthian Movement. I like the idea of being a revolutionary in a society where you can cause real institutional change and fight real oppression in the trenches.

>>44674581
A blood addict is the unavoidable result of a mortal repeatedly ingesting vitae. Ghouling requires a conscious effort by the vampire.

>>44674473
No, they only gain access to the powers inherent in vitae once they've undergone the ghouling process. You could fluff it to give some minor effect like a sudden sensory acuteness but, other than being a potent and addictive drug there is no other benefit.

>>44674460
Why would you need to do all that? Instrumentality is about smashing all the humans together to create a god. I could see the Temenos being important for the plan in some way.

>>44674673
Ordo Dracul. I don't think I'm posh enough for the Invictus, fuck a bunch of Carthians, I'm not religious enough for the other two. I enjoy outside the box thinking and the 'what ifs' of life as well.

>>44675268

Even if you smashed all the humans together, you'd probably just end up with a Rank 7 Spirit. In the CofD universe, you'll need to do something more dramatic than that.

how exactly does enscorcelling work for motals? You make an agreement with a changeling to do it, and you can see past their mask?

>>44674673
Silver Ladder.
I'm not enough of a "fighter" to go to the Arrow.
I'm studious, but I don't "love to learn", so no Mysterium.
I'm not crazy or selfless enough for the Veil.
And the Free Council can go fuck themselves.

>>44676791
You make a contract with a Changeling, and part of their obligations is sticking a point of Glamour in you, so you can see past the Mask.

>>44676933
Is it just their mask or 'all' masks? And if I understand right, by doing this they usually agree "I'll protect your dreams from all kinds of fucked up monstars"

>>44677622
It's all Masks.
The ensorcelled wouldn't be much help in the Freehold if they could only see through one Changeling's Mask.

>>44677932
Fair enough. I didn't realize Enscorcelled were created to help freeholds, I was under the impression it was just sort of a...."I do this for you so you can see through our masks, and I protect your dreams, in exchange you do X"

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The Dark Ages Vampire 20th book talks about the different Paths that a character can take along with the road, for instance, the Path of the Scholar with the Road of Bones
Are these statted out in the book? I can't seem to find them anywhere?

How unlikely would a city controlling group having members of a good chunk of the splats be? Most of my experience is with the hunter and demon books so I don't really know how it goes from literally everything else's side.

>>44678623
They generally have no reason to work together as their goals, issues and agendas are too wildly different. So quite unlikely.

>>44670417
>penalize tzimisce for being low humanity.
How about not doing that?

>>44668317

Can anyone share Heirs to Hell?

>>44678673
Not even mutual protection? I have no idea how much cross line interaction there is, but I can imagine a vampire having trouble with a spirit would greatly appreciate the help of a werewolf, or a mage having, a guy who goes really fast and has a gun? That could maybe help a mage.

>>44678836
>Can anyone share Heirs to Hell?

https://www.sendspace.com/file/c8dvfx

>>44678940
Mutual protection would generally expect that there is some kind of major threat against them. That said, I can imagine some of the splats working together towards the end of ending competition, by neatly sectioning off the city they ensure that everyone will have a share of humans to predate without worrying about inter conflict.

>>44678940
There generally isn't much cross-problem unless you, as the ST, design it to be so. The default of NWoD and even OWoD to an extent, is not 'and these things cause havoc in these other game lines'. Vampires don't know that a spirit is the cause of the Korean place serving people-bulgogi, And Mages aren't necessarily going to bat an eye at a dude acting weird because he's a Fetch and he just found out that he is, or a Werewolf dealing with a Seer plot to undermine and destroy the Consilium through mortal methods.

It's not a default of the setting.

>>44679107
It isn't necessarily something that never happens in the setting, however. saying its not "default" means nothing.

>>44678940

By default, the various splats are not inherently antagonistic to one another and have their own agendas and priorities. They are not really threatened by one another, certainly not by mortal humans, and generally have no need for mutual protection beyond their own kind.

Individual members and small groups can certainly work together, pursue common interests or face an uncommonly power threat on a short-term or a case-by-case basis, but it probably is not the norm. A underground crossover supernatural city government or anything similar would be far more likely to cause problems and conflicts than solve them.

However, in your CofD you can certainly do what you want, how you want.

Seriously how are you supposed to awaken your avatar? The ascencion book doesnt give a lot of detail.

>>44679165
Except it does. The 'default' of the game lines does not predicate on any cross-splat anything.

>>44679107
>>44679198
I definitely understand that it's not normal, and probably not a good idea just from an in universe perspective, but is there anything that would be an immediate problem, past the immediate everyone still has their previous problems? Would mages trigger vampire bloodlust or anything like that?

>>44679391
Again, UP TO YOU in YOUR GAME. There is not anything default that comes up. If you have Seers blowing up shit in the city, or a major bunch of Azlu killing lots of people, or SOMETHING that causes them to need to do so, then they probably would.

The thing is, it's a matter of the perception of characters and NPCs in YOUR game and YOUR city. We can't tell you because it's not a setting assumption and as such, it's ultimately your call as ST of YOUR game.

>>44679322
>The 'default' of the game lines does not predicate on any cross-splat anything.

Except possibly Beast, the bastard redheaded stepchild of the CofD.

>>44679391
Yay the seers of the throne would most likely be the mortal enemy's of the pure. As its mentioned in some section of seerer lore that Exarch ended a time of chaos and nature. A time when a tree would demand blood for it fruits. Sounds alot like Pangaea right? And the pure are all about that Pangaea. So the monument they figure this out it would be all out war in two of the largest BBEG's now imagine the forsaken adding the Seerers or the Diamond helping the pure. Shit be fucked yo.

>>44679620
Just an example of what you can do.

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>>44679581
Beast? What's Beast?

>>44679620
The Pure would be in fucking love with the Raptor, though.

>>44679670
A miserable pile of self-aggrandizement.

>>44679695
Not familiar with a raptor who that be?

>>44679391

There are no inherent psychological or physical impediments to any splats working together, although a werewolf in a death range or vampire in frenzy would certainly not be conducive to following Robert's Rules of Order.

However, by default, the various spats' cultures and interest are so diverse, and they are not normally threatened by each other or humans, so they have no reason to enter into a large-scale, formal political or social relationship. Such an organization would more likely create or exacerbate problems given the current setting assumptions. Nevertheless, individuals and small groups can certainly associate (or fight) one another.

You will simply need a reason in YOUR CofD for the various splats to join together and formally interact. Players do this all the time. The only "rule" is to have fun and do what's best for your chronicle.

>>44679713
Exarch of Life, reinforces natural law.
Predator v.s. prey, circle of life, suppression of free will and living on instinct.

Nasty, brutish and short.

>>44679786
I see your point. But I could see the pure thinking the Raptor is a mockery or visage of Fatherwolf. How thst would go is up to the pure in question.

If any of the splats get along well its probably mages and changelings. Mages are mentioned to be some of the non-changeling patrons of goblin markets and mages are the only ones who would be interested in or feel sympathetic for the lost.

>>44681530
well there is one hunter group that is really buddy buddy with with the lost

>>44672635
He cursed God. Also, he founded the Ordo.

>>44678792
All Vampires are penalized for being low Humanity. That's literally the point of Banes. Banes are always tied to Humanity. I'm doing a VtR2e version of the Tzimisce concept. Not the "Path of Whatever The Hell I Feel Like".

>>44681572
What group is that?

>>44681572
I remember someone mentioned Task Force VALKYRIE tried to help them or something.

>>44681530
>Mages are mentioned to be some of the non-changeling

Wow what a surprise

>>44681530
Not so true. Mages have this bottomless hunger to know about this arcadea, the true fey, how their contracts work. Changeling also have this really big trust issues. So a guy who cone out of nowhere asking questions about their lives and friends are not going to be the fast track to allies.

Did I imagine a Hunter compact that thought the fae were UFOs?

>>44681756

Yeah, but mages run stalls at goblin markets and buy goblin fruits so I think they've at the very least got some kind of working relationship. You can come up with any situation where two splats get off on the wrong foot and say that they'd hate each other's guts.

>>44681682
Yup thats in mortal remains. They help them adjust to live after they return. Give them new identities, jobs, and protection. Now if only changeling will trust the government.

>>44681756
Not every Mage is bereft of social graces.

>>44678283

Vampire 20th Anniversary Core. Don't have the book on me to check, but it should have every Path in it.

>>44681794
Probably not.
There's also a lot of Changeling material which portrays certain Gentry and Grays.

>>44681530
>>44681756

Remember also that a significant number of mages are Seers. I cannot imagine changelings responding too well to people who bend reality to their will and willingly choose to serve symbols of human oppression.

The Demon Player's Guide was very insightful in their treatment of mages. They compared mages who were interested in Demons as determined and powerful stalkers who had no general compunctions about suborning the will or enslaving others to satisfy their curiosity or gain a small measure of leverage against their adversaries. Mages are exactly the type of people whom smart changelings should studiously avoid at all costs.

>>44681826

TFV runs the equivalent of Witness Protection for returned changelings?

>>44681920
>Remember also that a significant number of mages are Seers

Nobody is talking about if seers and changelings get along.

>>44681823
True but the goblin markets are not ran by changings. But yay contact is bound to happen. Although how is a mage to spot out a changing amongst the fay?

>>44681829
Was not trying to place cold hard facts. There will of course be good first contacts. But the changeling paranoia is going to make it hard. But it would be a friendship worth making.

>>44681955

What, Seers don't constitute a significant number of actual mages?

Changelings by default don't know about mage politics. They're equally as likely to encounter a Pentacle mage as a Seer.

Seriously how are you supposed to awaken your avatar? The ascencion book doesnt give a lot of detail.

>>44681646
Was specifically talking about the Vlad I linked. Not CofD Vlad. And didn't Ordo just base themselves off of him?

>>44682034

I'm almost certain the Pentacle canonically outnumber the Seers.

>>44682105

Make a thread on the forums.

>>44682112
The Seers are about the size of 2 or three of the Diamond orders, I think?

>>44681920
Well I Belive the free council is the largest order of all orders.
>>44681946
Yup go yo show that the American government cares. Also that can't hold the changeling in captivity even if they want to.
>>44681955
Yes but the example prominent mage trying to control/get wish out of a demon is part of the diamond. With the book giving some examples of how the demon could get out of such a deal. From tricking the mage to lowering his standing in the consilium enough that assassination is a none problem.

>>44682105
Why the fuck do you keep asking? It doesn't have rules then that means it's personal. If it's anything like Awakening, you don't get to choose how you Awaken your Avatar, it just happens.

>>44682110
Well like I said, if Dracula was a Tzimisce, then he'd be able to change his sex. Also, in 1e, I think Anoushka created the Ordo, but in 2e it seems to be Dracula himself who was the first Kogaion.

>>44682112
>>44682135
>I'm almost certain the Pentacle canonically outnumber the Seers.

That's correct. But that still leaves a LOT of Seers, most of whom have resources and connections equal to or well in excess of the Pentacle counterparts. Unlike banishers and scelesti, Seers represent a significant faction of mages.

I'm new to running V20 and one of my players is raising potence to the 4th dot. I'm a little worried it's going to make combat too easy. What are you guy's experience with this? Any tips to balance this out, or am I worrying too much?

>tfw no Renaissance Italy setting for Demon: the Descent
>no clockwork demiurge behind the Catholic Church
>no machine-men with Venetian masks for faces and Da Vinci rib wings

KILL ME

>>44682132
what forums

>>44682190
i'm not asking for rules, but guidelines on how its supposed to happen other than "lol it just does".

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>>44668589
>I'm trying to think of a good Bane replacement, since the whole "sleep in soil of your birth" thing doesn't really encourage any specific playstyle. At the same time, nabbing the Spina drawback is too vaguely worded.
Sleep in a morgue?
>>44668756
>I might work in a ze, though...
Wouldn't say alt-pronouns really 'work' here. Your call, but in this case I'd advise against them.

>>44669250
>If you're working on fitting the style guide and writing more professionally, another thing you need to do for your writeups is cut the waste words. You make a lot of tangents and digressions that must be cut with no mercy. I bet you could cut a whole page worth down just by that alone.
Honestly, that seems like a good idea. At least for the X-Axis since it's quite important to be snappy with those.
>>44681530
I always figured Changelings and Sin-Eaters to get along quite well. They probably have issues quite understanding what the other is, but "I had NO FUCKING INTENTION OF DYING/STAYING IMPRISONED" is the type of sentiment I think many can bond over.

Besides, Celebrants and Spring Court seem like a chill combination.

>>44682289

The Onyx Path forums, dummy. The people who make these games?

>>44682289

forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/mage-the-ascension

>>44682303
Sleeping in a morgue is just as bad, if not worse, than homeland soil.
Also, why wouldn't an alternative pronoun work? Tzimisce are likely to cast off traditional gender notions, since they can be hermaphrodites. Hell, there's a canonically transgender Tzimisce iconic.

>Changelings and Sin-eaters
Motley Krewe

>>44682603
>Sleeping in a morgue is just as bad, if not worse, than homeland soil.
Why?
>Also, why wouldn't an alternative pronoun work?
Shrug.
>Spoiler
Hahaha.

>>44682630
It's the kind of thing that doesn't really encourage methods of play or types of play. Sleeping restrictions aren't all that useful because it doesn't really have much to do with your typical play. It doesn't stack up with the Clan Banes.

Then again, the Khaibit are "they're blinded in light that would blind them", and the Neglatu's problem is that they have to cuddle when they sleep. Neglatu would be much better if they had the Melissidae drawback (can't be too far from their hive or they get sad and crazy). Kerberos is actually GREAT, because it encourages you to Predatory Aura everyone in sight, which is also a bit of a social faux pas.

>>44682630

Because apparently everything needs to encourage a playstyle, even though I'm still not quite sure what the focus of Aspel's homebrew is, playstyle wise. Polite hat-tipper with an edge? Artists with an mid-Atlantic accent? I do agree that Homeland Soil doesn't work since they're not writing them as the Genteel Lords of All They Survey or even the Intelligent Cultured Monster of the Modern Nights, but until I get a good feel of what they're going for I've got nothing solid to suggest.

>>44682303

It's not just a good idea, it's a good way to get more bang for your buck with word count. There's a lot in that writeup that could be cut to give spacr, which can then be used for stronger writing. I can fill up a thousand words easy if I wanted to, but if I wanted them to be good, I'd have to cut the crap.

>>44682250
make it yourself, fugget

Looking over Heirs to Hell, does anyone else get the impression that a demon being pregnant is like playing quantum racketball with an unborn fetus? Depending on what the players do the fetus goes back and forth, and can apparently even feature some male pregnancy esque shit.

>>44682946
Well yeah, that's living with Cover for you.

>>44679670
Well it is either a Seeming of Changelings, the thing that makes Vampires go 'To fuck with this.' or what >>44679697 said.

So I've got an encounter of the diplomatic "Please solve this problem for us" sort coming up in my hunter game, the group(Including one wolf blooded) are going to go through a verge and try to convince some Low Harmony, high primal urge bone-shadows to help deal with a rank 5 angel that is mucking about. How exactly do you lot think a bunch of nearly entirely spirit werewolves would deal with that kind of encounter? The party are basically going to go to them and tell them "Yea, a super powerful spirit is fucking everything up in meatworld, please help"

>>44682792
Hat tipper?
Also, they are still genteel lords, and definitely cultured monsters. They just aren't directly tied to the land, and "monster" is less tied to Path of Being A Bastard.

They're aristocratic nobles with an love of beauty and creating it. It just happens to be that their version of Beauty is sometimes squiddly and chitinous. Eccentric well spoken nobles who make sculptures of living flesh and dote upon malformed homunculi.

As for the writing, I'm not necessarily trying to save space or wordcount (though when I do submit that will be an issue). I mean, the original Bloodline write ups in the splatbooks are a lot longer. I'm mostly concerned with getting my point across (which judging from the rest of your post, I still need to work on).

>>44683643
They might want some form of (potentially rare) chiminage, though the payment will probably be easier than fighting an Angel.

>>44683670
True, I sorta figured they'd ask for 'some' kind of favor, though there are few things a couple of humans and a wolf-blooded can offer high primal urge werewolves.

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>>44681845
I know this is super late, but the 20th corebook's paths are just the roads in DA20th.
From looking at the Paths of the Humanity Road and such, it seems to be things that slightly change the Road's Hierarchy of Sins.
For instance the Path of Community changes the 4th sin from "Killing Unjustly" to "Theft"

Surprisingly the Road of Bones does not have information on the changes that the Path of the Scholar, or the Path of Death and the Soul. Though the latter is in some CWoD Paths, so your DM could base it off of that
Onyx Path has constantly shit on the Necromancers in their books for some reason.

>>44683586
Or a Supernal entity from the Primal Wild.

>>44684316
Stealing that! Thanks.
By the way Dave heard you like Person of Interests. How do you think mages would handle samaritan? Or create the Machine?

>>44683708
>instant and cheap communication across the world

Well, there's one thing they can offer. Of course most preaditor kings are Sophist that don't believe in anything they can't smell.

>>44684409
True, but they won't be dealing with predator kings, just a buncha reclusive bone-shadows who, due to being fuckoff high primal urge, need to hunt very, very often.

Does anyone have How Do You DO That?

>>44684688
What Even IS That?

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I'm wondering: Could I adapt the ideas from Chapter 3 of the Demon Storyteller's Guide to a game of Mage? Specifically the Silent style of Chronicle. Or are Mages too powerful to really make espionage viable?
I'm hoping to make the characters be Sentinels, working for the local Consilum, investigating Seer operations in their territories and corruption within the Consilum itself.

>>44673615
>>44674490
The Pure have always been individually weaker than the Forsaken. They compensate by having greater unity (due to tyranny) and stronger allies. And in the case of the Fire Touched, a lot more bodies on their side.

I just had the best idea ever, here it is.

>Malkavian Mr Blobby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew8aJ3cSVvY

>>44685867
Too much fish.

>>44686012
You can never have enough fish.

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Is there an official system for playing normal people with psychic powers/espers in CofD? Or something like X-men mutants?

>>44686457
The Cheiron Group is your friend there, or the Lucifeurge, or any of the minor splats.

>>44686457
Orpheus

>>44676715
>the combined consciousness and souls of every human being on Earth is a rank 7 spirit.

dude, in WoD human lives and the human soul are like, the most magickally potent sources of energy in the world. There's a reason so many monsters feed off of them and that so many magickal rituals require human sacrifice. The combined souls of every human on Earth would sweep away Luna, Gaia, the Firstborn, everything except itself.

>>44685313
I've done something similar where people had been taken over by earthbound demons giving them supernatural powers just put them in an area where hiding their mortality could be beneficial to them and I bet you'll see some great RP/espionage

>>44686457
Yes. CofD.

To be less annoying, there is a series of supernatural merits that represent psychic powers, among many other things, in the core book.
Hurt Locker will bring in more of that, if it ever arrives.

>>44674460
fusion of spirits and souls you're looking towards necromancy or nigromancy and those are some very fickle powers if you mess that up you're going to destroy something.. like destiny or fate.

I'm trying to make a Mayan Bloodline for Requiem based on Camazotz (mesoamerican vampire myth). What do you guys think about a Bloodline with Gangrel as the parent clan, where the vampire sprouts a Predatory or Unnatural Aspect every time he/she increases her Potency (and slowly sprout an amount equivalent to their blood potency if they join with a bunch of potency already). These would be permanent manifestations that cannot be undone or unsheathed or removed in anyway.

The idea being that they become more and more monstrous the older they get and are really incapable of fitting into any society.

The bane would be that they can't rise above average impression with mortals, suffer their Blood Potency as a penalty to interactions with humans or animals - and the obvious problem of potentially having permanently manifested wings or something. Which would be a masquerade breach and likely to draw the attention of Kindred society.

>>44687239
Is the rule that your Humanity caps your interactions with non-supernaturals gone in 2e? Because that, combined with another penalty would make it next to impossible to do something with humans.

>>44687349
That's sort of the goal, though.

The humanity cap might be a clan bane now, but there is a penalty based on humanity. (-1 at Humanity 5-6 for example, and -2 at 3 Humanity, etc.)

>>44687429
It's more reasonable, then. In 1e your humanity was the maximum number of dice you had on interactions with mortals, so at Humanity 3 you had a max of 3 dice.

So, for the Viccissitude stuff, I figured I'd pop this out of the six page write up for my version of Tzimisce in the hopes that gets more people to read it. This is JUST a bunch of abilities that expand on Protean ●● and Protean ●●●●

http://pastebin.com/FaJhg65R

>>44687239
Oh, hey, you might actually like what I'm doing here. For my 2e Tzimisce write up, I'm making a list of additional Predatory and Unnatural Aspects since my version of Viccissitude is a bunch of Protean Disciplines that involve the Aspects.

For your Bloodline:
What is their theme? In what way are they Mayan? Do they all manifest powers that make them more similar to Camazotz, or is it any bestial Mayan lord?

Either way, either have the drawback (and bonus) that they manifest free Aspects every point of Blood Potency above two. This should probably be in addition to the three Predatory Aspects that they gain when taking the power. It might also be appropriate if they *always* gain a free Beast's Skin ability of a large (Size 4) blood drinking bat. You could probably throw the bat form a few merits, like Bloodhound and Acute Senses. Actually, hell... See the next post.

>>44687349
Humanity has a penalty, or, if you're 7+, a bonus.

>>44687429
I think that having them be borderline unplayable is going about it wrong. All Banes should also involve Humanity in some way.

>>44683670

>They're aristocratic nobles with an love of beauty and creating it. It just happens to be that their version of Beauty is sometimes squiddly and chitinous. Eccentric well spoken nobles who make sculptures of living flesh and dote upon malformed homunculi.

Are you sure you still want to call them Tzimisce? It doesn't sound like a conversion as much as it is that you're making a new bloodline with a familiar ability, like the Khaibit. Honestly, that route might be better for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg
This made me think of Demon.

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>>44687239
>>44687845
Shit. I was too wordy even for a new post.

Alright. Protean ●●● means you can take on an animal's form. You gain the animal's physical traits. Here's the physical traits for a spooky super bat form (though clearly they can't actually USE it unless they have Beast's Skin)

http://pastebin.com/0Ekq9pH5

I was tempted to give it a few dots of Kindred Fighting Style using Brawl instead of weaponry, but I felt it was already getting too complicated. Sometimes my problem is going too complicated.

For your Bloodline, I'd use the following rules:
They gain a free Predatory Aspect that manifests permanently. Spending a point of Vitae, or using Predatory Aspect to manifest any of their other three Aspects, allows them to suppress their Cursed Aspect for a scene.
For every point of Blood Potency above two, they gain an additional Predatory Aspect that manifests permanently.
At Blood Potency six and above, they manifest an Unnatural Aspect instead.

Considering all of that is a LOT of Aspects, and with the three you get to choose when you gain Protean ●●, that's more than exist in the game, I'd suggest using >>44687845 (and also helping me make a larger list, maybe to upload as a separate PDF).

>>44688055
Maybe. I mean, I'm still basing it on what I'm reading of the V20 and DA20 write ups, with the slight change that they're not all inherently on the slippery slope to being Doctor Steinman from Bioshock. Or Sander Cohen, come to think of it.

I seem to have the Homebrew Bug lately. I'm half tempted to play 20 questions with the anon who wants the Mayan Bloodline and write up THEIR Bloodline for them.

>>44687845
>All Banes should also involve Humanity in some way.

I didn't realize that was the trend but you might be right.

Also, I don't consider them unplayable except in some campaigns, I do sort of want to hammer in the idea of being unfit for society though. As true monsters.

And yes, the idea is that they can't really function using social graces - is that really unplayable? I do want them to be powerful but problematic for both Kindred and in mortal society

>>44688172
>I'm half tempted to play 20 questions with the anon who wants the Mayan Bloodline and write up THEIR Bloodline for them.

Gonna be honest I would have no problem with this.

>>44688204
>A character may only have three banes. You may choose from the sample banes below, or create your own. As a rule, most banes use Humanity as part of their mechanics, and can affect Vitae or cause bashing damage. Sometimes, they use the inverse of Humanity, expressed as (10 – Humanity). Many banes provoke frenzy. A vampire cannot use more dice to resist a bane-provoked frenzy than she has Humanity dots.

Well, part of the game IS interacting with moral society. Almost every game is going to involve mortals in some fashion, and especially with 2e you're discouraged from fucking off and doing your own thing. Especially since Touchstones are a big thing, and it's hard to get them when you look like a hideous abomination. I mean, not even Nosferatu are inherently ugly anymore.

Likewise, remember, the main focus of the game is balancing your Masquerade (keeping vampires secret and avoiding becoming ash, and on top of that your own personal secrets) and your Requiem (being able to live your unlife, enjoy the Danse, and to keep from falling to the Beast through low Humanity).

That's complicated when you can't go outside. Plus, the more Masquerade breaching you are, the less you can do. I honestly have no idea how the old school hideous Appearance 0 Nosferatu managed, other than Obfuscation. And when you can't leave your Haven, it makes it very hard to play a character. This is one of the reasons I hate the Malocusian Bloodline from 1e; they're spiders that perfectly control their Havens. Problem being they can't really LEAVE them.

So if your drawback is "you're a hideous Masquerade Breach", that's really just code for "you're forced to put one dot into Obfuscate at character creation".

>>44688494
Well of course not, most people enjoy when someone offers to do work for them :V
What do you think of those Pastebins I've linked you so far?

>>44688172

Sure, you're still using a base, but that one tiny change is actually putting you against a much bigger design space to play around in. The "artisan" niche in Requiem is actually still pretty dang open, and I think going for it would be a good idea.

>>44688914
>What do you think of those Pastebins I've linked you so far?

Really great so far. Love the bat form. Looking through the Aspects now the Grasping Tendrils one is maybe better than the Unnatural Aspect version (Barbed Hands), no? Aside from that, again awesome.

>>44688494

>So if your drawback is "you're a hideous Masquerade Breach", that's really just code for "you're forced to put one dot into Obfuscate at character creation"

I was more thinking. Ghoul someone. Live in the sewers or the nearby forest. Wear a cloak a lot. You're not wrong, I just think the Bloodline is for a specific kind of campaign and admittedly very unsuited for certain others.

Maybe I'm wrong on that though. Maybe the penalty is too steep.

>>44688934
I am mostly focusing on the artisan niche, though from the perspective of being aristocratic artists; think Blood Artist (>>44668729). Do you really feel it's that different from the original version of Tzimisce? I mean, it feels like you *could* play the kind of character I describe in Masquerade, it's just not the typical one (mostly because I'm ignoring Path of Whatever I Was Going To Do Anyway). I'm trying to use the Ventrue, Nosferatu, and Gangrel as a guideline, and how they differ between Masquerade and 2e.

The Gangrel is basically unchanged in terms of drawback except for it's mechanics: You're more likely to flip out on shit, though the themes and character types are expanded on (for instance you can now be a very social or intellectual Gangrel)

The Ventrue have many of the same themes, but they're also expanded on to encompass more than just the obvious forms of leadership (The Rat King and Lord of the trailer park come to mind), and their Bane is more about the troubles of leadership as opposed to being picky.

The Nosferatu are the most drastically changed. While they still have social troubles, it's not because of any overt disfigurements, but because their Beast is a palpable and unsettling presence, even if they're beautiful. It's possible to play a Masquerade Nosferatu as a VtR2e Nosferatu, but impossible to go the other way. Even so, many of the themes and tone are still present.

I'm basically going for that sort of change for Tzimisce, although I am skipping straight to 2e with them.

>>44689035
Eh. Adding Protean dots is better than just +3, although whether easy exceptionals or lethal damage and instant feeding is better is a toss up. Maybe I'll forgo the +3 and make it 8-Again and easy exceptionals.

>>44689099
Hard to ghoul someone if you're not around people, though.

>>44689180
"Easy Exceptionals" is probably at least as good as a +3, considering Exceptionals are an XP farm.

>oWoD Changeling 20th anniversary kickstarter is in the home stretch, where kickstarters traditionally get the most money per unit time
>Minds Eye Theatre launches oWoD Werewolf LARP kickstarter

Is it just me or is this a dick move?

>>44689320
Why? It's two different companies doing the kickstarters, they are under no obligation to coordinate.

>>44689406
Because there are only so many oWoD fans, and forcing them to pick camps as far as who to give their money to is bad for the brand as a whole.

>>44689487
Yeah, but how many people are going to back the MET Werewolf book unless they plan to actually PLAY the LARP version? Since the LARP version and the tabletop versions are wildly different in setup and setting and timeline advancement from the 20th anniversary and other versions.

>>44689286
I'm more interested in the way that an Exceptional Success on a Grapple lets you choose a second option from the list.

Do Exceptionals even give Beats? Or was that just a typo? I don't actually remember anything about Exceptionals giving Beats, other than taking Conditions when doing Extended Actions.

>>44689663
Exceptionals always give Conditions, which in turn give Beats when you resolve them.

>>44689180

It really is. The Tzimisce, unlike the other clans that became Requiem core clans, are more deeply rooted in VtM's backstory and politics, and taking on that name invokes that for a lot of folks. This is why the Khaibit, while taking on the Lasombra's Obtenebration, are not called the Lasombra: the original name evokes one specific kind of character because of how that clan was written. Even the smallest change makes a world of difference when bringing over the Sabbat aligned clans to a setting like Requiem.

Already, by focusing on the idea of the "eccentric artist", you've brought in some clear Toreador influences. Much like the Khaibit (I keep bringing this up because your writeup and the Khaibit are similarly rooted mechanically), you've actually got a few clans getting mixed in there, and it seems like it'd be a missed opportunity to not embrace that. It'd help clarify your playstyle in the text, too.

>>44689487

I don't think there's enough Dreaming and Apocalypse overlap in fandom to really make a huge difference, especially since C20 unleashed their Ultimate Move: Ultra-Deluxe Edition with a Stained Glass Cover.

>>44689771
Not all Conditions give you beats

>>44689771
Oh. Huh. Then why have so many people been saying it's hard to get Conditions? I'm even seeing that as being true as far back as Blood and Smoke:
>Exceptional Success: Your character’s action succeeds beyond her expectations. Achieved by rolling five or more successes. Your character gains a beneficial Condition. (See “Conditions,” p. 193.) Usually, the Inspired Condition is most appropriate. You can instead give this Condition to another character when it’s appropriate to the story.
Also, that's a very "the rich get richer" way to do character growth. Why have people been complaining about "the system encourages you to roll failures"? There's no limit on the amount of Conditions you can get from an Exceptional, so you could do it multiple times in a scene.

>>44689846
The other Requiem clans were ALSO rooted in the backstory and politics; they just had that removed. The Khaibit also had Obtenebration, but no other aspects of the Losambra, except the ones the Mekhet already had; they had more in common with the Assamites.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't really agree with you, and I feel that part of the trouble is that I'm basically skipping from 1e to 2e. After all, a LOT of the 1e Bloodlines that were Clans or Bloodlines in Masquerade are very different from their original versions. Malkovians, Malkavians, and Brujah come to mind (although Toreador are basically ported over exactly).

I do agree that a complete rewrite is in order; partly to clarify things, partly because I asked a non-WoD friend to read over it and they just gave me back all sorts of editing.

>>44689848
Yes they do. When you resolve one, it gives you a Beat. The section labeled "Beat" in Persistent Conditions gives you a Beat for the scene or Chapter, but doesn't resolve it.

>>44689848
Yes they do.

Not all Conditions give beats before they resolve. Resolving a Condition always grants a Beat. Some Conditions, usually Persistent Conditions (2e's version of Flaws, mostly), also have a condition that can generate a Beat without Resolving the Condition.

>>44689986

Yes, but take note that all those names come from Camarilla clans, specifically the more common Cam clans. As the default clans, they were designed to be broad and therefore can be more easily repurposed. The Sabbat clans started as antagonists first, and ended up getting more specific in their design because of it. Scrubbing and repurposing isn't going to be as easy, and that's the real problem. Even with the Malkovians, Malkavians, and Brujah keep their basic core despite their surface differences. From what I read of your write up, the core that I see in your Tzimisce is just not the same. It's similar at times, but there's a new kind of bloodline waiting to get out from it and as long as you keep the name I think you're going to keep having a conflict between the name and inferences of the old Tzimisce and the playstyle and philosophy of your new one.

Whether we agree or not, though, I'm glad you're giving it another draft because even for a first draft a lot of the prose is a mess.

>>44691064
But you can voluntarily take on conditions, so can you spam easy XP by resolving them?

>>44691336
You can't voluntarily take on conditions whenever you want. Only when you go through something that would logically lead to you gaining a condition.

So, yeah, if by 'easy xp' you mean 'going through a ton of shit', yes, in theory, you could.

File: Onyx_Path_2015-2016_Publishing_Brochure_(7495244)_01.jpg (589KB, 1913x2475px) Image search: [Google]

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>>44674918
>Secrets of the Tribes
I would expect more treatment of the Pure

>>44689986
>Yes they do. When you resolve one, it gives you a Beat. The section labeled "Beat" in Persistent Conditions gives you a Beat for the scene or Chapter, but doesn't resolve it.
They were probably just meaning that there are Conditions that specifically don't give you Beats upon resolution (mostly things that "wear off" without any player agency)

>>44692218
They still give a beat, if you actually resolve it yourself. There's a difference between "not giving a beat" and "giving a beat unless you make no effort to get that beat"

>>44692318
They specifically say they don't give a beat when you resolve them. That means you don't get a beat when you resolve them.

>>44689986
>Then why have so many people been saying it's hard to get Conditions?
Getting 5 successes is actually pretty hard, at least without supernatural help.

Also it's not necessarily that it's hard to get Conditions, it's that coming up with Conditions on-the-spot is a pain in the ass and can interrupt the flow of the game, and if you just reuse the same published Conditions over and over it gets repetitive and tedious.

Supernatural splats tend to have a much easier time getting exceptionals on certain rolls (for example, Werewolves making Perception rolls are going to get a +4 basically at all times, and there's a 1 XP wolf gift that gives you exceptional successes on Perception at 3 successes instead of 5), to the point where my own ST has stopped bothering with Conditions for the most part because they're intrusive and just gives out a Willpower point and a Beat.

>>44692594
>Getting 5 successes is actually pretty hard, at least without supernatural help.
This.

We made a locus the other day and essentially had extended rolls for fending off/killing small spirits, one a day, and while no one got failures we didn't get any exceptional successes (on dicepools from 4-9). 4 people rolling 7 times a pop.

>>44692641
That's another thing: the other way you get Beats from Conditions is by rolling Dramatic Failures. You can also convert a Failure into a Dramatic Failure for an extra Beat (i.e. that generates a Beat, and then a Condition that'll get you a Beat when resolved the way they always do) once per scene, but the problem there is it's very easy to have dicepools that are good enough to get at least 1 success, but not good enough to get 5. You're basically being punished for not failing, and as far as in-character logic goes, characters are going to be attempting tasks they're actually good at.

If you have zero Larceny, you're not going to try anyway so you can dramatically fail and get a Beat, you're going to let the member of your party who DOES have Larceny do it.

>>44692746
I think in the whole game I've caught two exceptional successes, but I get a dramatic failure once every other game.

The ST should be using more modifiers for that

>>44692771
er, in the whole story, but dramatic failure once every other session

>>44692771
That is true - my GM doesn't apply circumstance bonuses or penalties very often.

That's my main issue with 2e's XP system, really - it's dependent on a ton of bookkeeping and extraneous for the GM to remember in order for the PCs to advance at the rate they're supposed to, during the game itself, when you're busy trying to just run a fun experience for your group.

I really miss 1e's "five-minute post-game review" style of XP distribution.

>>44692190
>Secrets of the Tribes

I hope we learn far more about the Pure in SofT. However, comments from Chris and others indicate that no scheduled book, apparently including SofT, will provide this information, GenCon blurb notwithstanding.

>>44692819
>it's dependent on a ton of bookkeeping and extraneous for the GM to remember
There really isn't that much extra work, and remembering beats should be playerside.

They should publish more conditions for exceptional successes, tho

>>44692845
Secrets of the Tribes isn't on the schedule, so doesn't really count. Dark Eras/The Pack are the scheduled werewolf things

>>44692885
STs have to remember circumstance modifiers on every roll, 3-4 aspirations per player, and Conditions on each player - and remembering to generate new conditions on-the-spot for every Exceptional Success or Dramatic Failure, and that's on top of the rules, the plot, the NPC cast, and the PCs' characters.

>>44692885
>Secrets of the Tribes isn't on the schedule, so doesn't really count

I should have stated "announced," rather than "scheduled,' but I hope you're right, and the Pure (and helions) will receive in-depth treatment in SofT.

The issue now is when SofT will be published. I didn't get the impression from Chris that writing has even begun. At OPP's current rate, I definitely expect it sometime before 2047, giver or take a decade.

>>44692933
>STs have to remember circumstance modifiers on every roll
You make up modifiers depending on the situation
>3-4 aspirations per player
this is a pre-game thing, for when you've planned things that're gonna happen, otherwise its up to the players to pursue
>and Conditions on each player
again, player side
>- and remembering to generate new conditions on-the-spot for every Exceptional Success or Dramatic Failure
you can just use inspired for exceptional successes, dramatic failures don't automatically give you conditions
> and that's on top of the rules, the plot, the NPC cast, and the PCs' characters.
most of this should take place during planning
its really not as much as you're making out

>>44693010
>The issue now is when SofT will be published. I didn't get the impression from Chris that writing has even begun.
Probably be started after the Pack is out.

Rich said they had slowed production during 2015 while they dealt with the change in bosses, but things should be speeding up.

Keep in mind there's a lot of new writers and half of them are shit, so they write, their work has to be redone, they get fired, they start shittalking on 4chan about the company and breaking NDRs in petty revenge schemes, which slows down production a lot

>>44693135
>Keep in mind there's a lot of new writers and half of them are shit, so they write, their work has to be redone, they get fired, they start shittalking on 4chan about the company and breaking NDRs in petty revenge schemes, which slows down production a lot

Flaky writers have always been a problem (and the Amy issues were somewhat unique). The Paradox purchase of WW may have slowed down some material, but cannot account for everything.

Hopefully, your optimistic view will prove prescient and we'll see far more CofD books in 2016 than 2015.

>>44693215
>2015 was in a lot of ways a year of changes, although Onyx Path Publishing itself became more stable and efficient. Not that that internal tune-up was obvious as projects slid last year, but I think it will make a big difference this coming year now that we have a very different licensing situation.
>One of the behind the scenes situations that slowed our progress was that we really spent the year waiting for news of whether the White Wolf properties had been sold; not a total cessation of activity, but a sort of decision making paralysis limbo where we needed and wanted to press forward with our WW licenses, but couldn’t do too much out of concern of being caught short if the new owners decided to pull them from us.

>>44693274

On that note, is it just me or is Paradox taking longer to approve than CCP? I assume it's because, much like Onyx Path, only two or three people work at White Wolf proper.

>>44694451
Considering we don't know how long it took before or it's taking now it's hard to tell.

>>44694451

Once CCP ended the WOD MMO, they didn't really care all that much about the IP. Approvals were so quick for the same reason WW was sold to Paradox.

Our only real evidence of any potential delays in Paradox approvals was the new CofD corebook after the decision to change the name of the nWOD and right after the WW acquisition. It's probably not fair to judge or predict anything yet based on this one (and first) Paradox-WW book, particularly since Paradox was certainly entitled to some time to get their bearings and determine what exactly they wanted to do with all the IP.

Hopefully, as relationships solidify between OPP and Paradox, the pace of approvals will quicken.

>>44691106
Well, I mean, when you get right down to it the name doesn't really matter, and honestly I could just give it something new, but it's something a friend asked me for (Well, they made a short write up for Tzimisce in 2e and it looked terrible and I said "no, let me do it right" because I'm persnickety about mechanics).

I feel like there's too much of the original Tzimisce to change the name, even if some fans of the more "off the deep end" Tzimisce of the original game wouldn't like this. At the same time, I *am* trying to allow different playstyles, like the current ST's "I made a Tzimisce staying on the Path of Humanity" way of doing it.

If I did change the name, I might as well change the Dracula aspects, too, but what would I change their name to?

>>44692373
I can't think of any Conditions that don't give a Beat AT ALL, but I can think of several that "wear off" and don't give a Beat because you didn't actually Resolve them, they just faded away.

>>44692641
>>44692594
It's the "without supernatural help" that means it shouldn't be an issue.
Also, is that you, ST of mine? I keep trying to get in touch with you about these Tzimisce.

>>44692746
Think of the "you get a Beat on a Dramatic Failure" aspect as more of a concession. Like patting a child on the head and saying "there there" after they've shown you their terrible drawing made on your mortgage papers.

>>44693053
Inspired is honestly very "rich get richer".

>>44693135
Amy has very much not shittalked the company or broken any NDA's. Bitch still shills for them for fucks sake.

>>44694718
Honestly if the terrible job of layout and editing that CofD core was any indication, sad times to come. But at the same time I welcome corporate overlords who actually care. But I'm worried that Dracula *doesn't* actually care.

>>44695490
>Also, is that you, ST of mine? I keep trying to get in touch with you about these Tzimisce.
I did say I'd be busy this weekend.

>>44695490
>Honestly if the terrible job of layout and editing that CofD core was any indication, sad times to come. But at the same time I welcome corporate overlords who actually care. But I'm worried that Dracula *doesn't* actually care.

WW's basic layout and design style hasn't demonstrably changed for over 20 years, although editing and indexing has improved, and PDF hyperlinks are welcome. I don't really expect major changes to basic layout, and I'm far more concerned with actual content.

Nevertheless, if Mage 2e doesn't change the nearly unreadable font and color combinations from 1e, my opinion of Dave will markedly decline.

>>44695804
I assumed you just meant Saturday. How long does it take to get porn off your laptop?

>>44695920
I'd still like the game to not reference mechanics that no longer have rules for them, and to point to the things that should.

Switching from GMC to CofD gives us new chase rules and new investigation rules, but ignores useful setting aspects like certain key Conditions and Tilts (I tried writing up that Camazotz and the Predatory/Unnatural Aspects and wanted to properly cross-reference, but VtR2e doesn't have "Sick" so I pulled up the new corebook, but THAT doesn't have it either, so I had to go to GMC. There's also no Soulless Condition), and adds yet another version of rules in some cases.

I mean, every version of Parkour in CofD even as far back as Blood and Smoke makes reference to rules that NO LONGER EXIST, and this is still true in CofD core, which has a DIFFERENT version of Parkour.

I'm remembering why I liked having a core book instead of having every book provide the core rules the way that oWoD did: Every book ends up a slightly different game.

>>44696105

Wasn't the CofD release the "pre-final edit" draft?

Hopefully, most of these problems with be corrected in the "final" release.

>>44695920
>Nevertheless, if Mage 2e doesn't change the nearly unreadable font and color combinations from 1e, my opinion of Dave will markedly decline.
Dave has already said they're DEFINITELY changing the unreadable shit from 1e. He had to specifically ask the Layout guys to do so, iirc.

>>44696433

Dave asking for changes sadly doesn't guarantee major improvements. I remain cautiously optimistic.

>>44696403
Yeah, but judging from other books, I'm not really holding my breath. Any changes are unlikely to greatly affect the wordcount, and there's still a lot missing. I doubt we're going to see conditions or rules that we don't have at the moment.

I like the new Investigation and Pursuit rules (well, in theory, haven't really looked them over) and think they're good additions. But I wish they'd made the game much more of a CORE book first, providing all the rules needed to play the game. Most of the problem there comes from just reusing the information from the God-Machine Chronicle, which assumed you had the Corebook. There's a LOT of crossreferencing involved in playing a WoD game because you often need to look between two or three or even four books. Or you can ignore the core book--the book that's supposed to have everything you need--and go with the GMC, which at least cuts it to three. I also just tend to make assumptions about 1e Core instead of reading that again.

They should also just release a free PDF supplement that's literally all of the conditions.

>>44696704
>They should also just release a free PDF supplement that's literally all of the conditions.

That would be nice and very useful.

As a bonus for all the problems, the PDF should also include all of DavidH's Advanced and Epic Merits that were cut from CofD.

>>44695490
>I can't think of any Conditions that don't give a Beat AT ALL, but I can think of several that "wear off" and don't give a Beat because you didn't actually Resolve them, they just faded away.
Stumbled and Distracted stand out

>>44695490
>Inspired is honestly very "rich get richer".
Anyone can theoretically get Inspired with a willpower roll.

>>44696937
Honestly both of these things should be in the cooooore.

Like, I want a corebook that's:

>Character creation that includes ALL of the rules for each mortal use of Attributes and Skills
>Rules for situations like falling, drugs, poison, getting shot, car crashes, environments, social interaction, investigation, chases, and whatever else
>Tons of Conditions and Tilts that cover things that will come up on a multitude of games and playstyles: Soulless, Sick, Pregnancy, and Derangements (I'm really disappointed Derangements don't show up).
>Explanations of a variety of basic weapons, including descriptions and ways to use the same stats for similar weapons (seriously, half the weapons lose their additional benefits in CofD)
>An explanation for Vices and Virtues, including several (ideally new) examples.
>Monster creation with guidelines and examples
>Guidelines for running the game, including getting characters together and advice for dealing with fringe cases.

I hate that CofD is better for explaining what the game is about, but worse for actually telling the rules.

>>44697710
I feel like both of those really want to be Tilts.

>>44697913
Advanced and epic merits should definitely not be in the core, since they're not for core things, they're for supernaturals.

Most of those things you wanted in a corebook came in the corebook

>>44697952
Not really, that's why I'm complaining. The write ups for Attributes and Skills are severely truncated compared to 1e, there are like half as many sample Virtues/Vices as the GMC, less Conditions or Tilts than the GMC, no weapon descriptions at all, and almost all of the rules that show up get less explanation than the 1e corebook.

>>44697952

DavidH explicitly indicated that the majority of Advanced and Epic Merits, including some of the ones cut from Beast, were indeed supposed to be available for non-supernaturals, although many should obviously only be taken by rare or exceptional people, precisely who PC's and some NPC's are meant to emulate. They were cut from CofD due to limited space, not to reserve them for supernaturals.

The bigger problem obviously is repeated references to Conditions or rules in the new core that simply don't exist. That really needs to be corrected, even if they are forced to layout the book all over again.

>>44697952
>>44697913
>>44696937
You guys are really overestimating advanced merits, you just take a regular merit, add Advanced or Epic to it and make it more powerful.

>If a Merit lists being “Advanced” or “Epic,” it’s a supernatural extension of a mundane Merit. This requires the mundane version of the Merit to be purchased first. Most such Merits require your character to be a Beast, but that’s noted in their prerequisites.

>>44698122
You have the worst reading comprehension

>>44698179
>Advanced and epic merits should not be in the core because they're for supernaturals
>"Actually, the person who wrote them said they're not, and they were going to be in the core but got cut for space".
Although honestly if you cut out the God-Machine Chronicle part of the core, you could fix everyone's problems with it by freeing up a bunch of space.

>>44698091

OPP crammed more overall material in the book. However, due obviously to space limitations, they also cut or truncated a lot of important information and mechanics, including matters that are actually referenced in the text.

The CofD should have been two volumes dividing rules and mechanics from setting and storytelling advice.

>>44698275
Honestly I feel like you don't need to do that. Just cut out or trim down the God-Machine Chronicle chapter and it would have more than enough room.

>>44698179

I can read just fine. I was referencing DavidH's comments on the OPP forums concerning Advanced and Epic Merits. Since he wrote the merits, he certainly knows his own intentions.

For instance,

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/798547-alpha-predators-the-strongest-vampires/page2

>>44698345

I imagine that OPP didn't want to cut any God Machine Chronicle material both because it's the setting (and marketing) hook for a mortal campaign, and because Demon relies on the expanded mythology.

>>44698429
But it's not like The God-Machine Chronicle doesn't already exist.

Why bother paying for a book when you already own most of it?

>>44698546

OPP wants to attract new players who don't own the old books and enforce and emphasize the re-branding of the nWOD to the CofD. The new CofD core was intended to replace, not supplement, the GMC.

>>44698650
Yes, but the God-Machine Chronicle book still exists. It's, what, two years old at this point? No one should have to buy both the God-Machine Chronicle AND the new core book, and it's not like they want to stop selling it.

I don't have a problem with providing some suggestions for a mortal plot, but I don't think they need to devote SO MUCH room to it that it invalidates an entire other book.

I don't believe they want to replace the GMC, and even if they do, so much of the CofD rules still encourage you to use at least the Rules Update PDF.

>>44698755

Well, the Rules Update PDF is free, so you know, if you really need it. That said, Soul Loss probably should have been put in there, since it looks like a lot of WoD Powers are going to start using it.

>>44698755
>Yes, but the God-Machine Chronicle book still exists. It's, what, two years old at this point? No one should have to buy both the God-Machine Chronicle AND the new core book

You understand why we are so frustrated. The CofD should have either truly replaced the GMC without cutting important material or have been a true supplement to or independent of the GMC book. We currently are sadly experiencing the worst of both worlds.

>>44698810
It's free, yes, but for all of us most of these books are free. The problem is that I don't want to open up like three books at the same time.

My problem is the difficulty I have getting my friends to understand the game. My problem isn't that it's costly, I'm on 4chan. My problem is that it's complicated to get people to play it.

>>44698850
>You understand why we are so frustrated.
I'm... also frustrated for those reasons?

>>44699116
>The problem is that I don't want to open up like three books at the same time.
hah

>>44699116

Why not just edit all three materials into one document? That's not optimal in the least, of course, but it's better than having three things open at once and I doubt the final version of the CofD corebook is going to be much different from the preview version. There'll probably be some grammatical edits and Fate'll get cut out, but that's about it.

>>44699229
What? It's a legitimate issue. It's bad enough that I have to keep flipping between bookmarks in the Werewolf book just to create a character or guide my players through Pack creation. Needing to do that with Requiem2e, but adding in the GMC is just another layer of frustration.

It makes me remember how I turned my friends off of 7 Wonders because I couldn't adequately explain the rules to them.

>>44699263
That's basically what I'll have to do. I keep using sites like this
http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/cod/cod/CreationGMC.html

>>44699336

You know, it's too bad that a lot of games don't have a web component like The Subnet. I feel like it'd be perfect for a game that uses a Creative Commons license.

>>44699336
>. It's bad enough that I have to keep flipping between bookmarks in the Werewolf book just to create a character or guide my players through Pack creation.
Character creation is all on page 84

>>44698429
>and because Demon relies on the expanded mythology.
You'll note how Werewolf was fine without the corebook establishing the Hisil, Mage was fine without the corebook establishing the Supernal or the Abyss, Promethean was fine without the corebook establishing the Divine Fire, Changeling being fine without the corebook establishing the Hedge, Arcadia, or the existence of the Fae...

Personally I prefer only being able to assume that the God-Machine is a thing if I'm playing Demon.

>>44699879
Not all of it. How much Renown you should start with isn't even mentioned. It's also the first time personal Kuruth triggers are mentioned, but none of the rest of Character Creation tells you where to find that information.

>>44700008
I don't mind the God-Machine Chronicle as a thing humans might get wrapped up in. I just don't like it taking up space in two books with the same information.

>>44700008
uh, dude

you "don't have to assume it's a thing" unless you want it in the setting

it's a concept that requires more explanation than others, is unique to the setting and serves as an excellent example of the CofD's spooky weirdness, that's why it's in the core

nevermind the concept behind the name change, this shit has been the case since day 1 with the nWoD. What shit are you smokin?

>>44700035
>It's also the first time personal Kuruth triggers are mentioned, but none of the rest of Character Creation tells you where to find that information.
They're in the kuruth trigger section

>>44700083

Some people just want their Mortal games to be about Mortal things: crime, ghosts, and monsters that don't fit in the proper setting.

>>44700083
GMC is designed for playing games where the players can safely assume the God Machine will be the main focus, or at least be behind everything.

Putting this right in the corebook kind of hurts the mystery of the setting compared to 1e, which was designed for protagonists who were as ignorant as possible, and players who'd have no idea what was coming.

Building the God-Machine into the setting as a default helps Demon. I don't think it does the same for mortals games.

>>44700170
I'd bet you were the same ignorant who was complaining about 1e not having enough information to help you build a game/mystery

>>44700218

Why does there have to be a dichotomy between the two? You can have advice and information on building a game without having to slap in a centerpiece to the setting. As much as I like the God-Machine and the GMC book, it's a bit hard to have a setting of dark mystery when half the book is about God-Machine adventures.

>>44700334
>it's a bit hard to have a setting of dark mystery when half the book is about God-Machine adventures.
How so? The God Machine itself is one huge ass question mark that just makes more question marks.

>>44700218
>I'd bet you were the same ignorant who was complaining about 1e not having enough information to help you build a game/mystery
What?

I thought 1e core was fine. I have no idea who you're talking about, but it wasn't me.

>fucking every day whining about being unable to read character creation despite every other person having no problem
>every day for a week, at least
>can't make characters without taking 7 days and 3 books
>says he doesn't have a reading problem

>>44700107
I feel like you're not grasping the point I'm making here...

>>44700430
It's one big ass question mark that also answers questions. I'm on board with >>44700166. I'd rather my Mortals games be generic weird "out of context" problems.

>>44700441
>Assuming only one person has this issue
Fucking EVERYONE complains about the layout. Why do you think WoD has places like subnet and WoD Index?

>>44700466
I don't get the problem you had. The only page-turning I had to do for Werewolf was to find Gifts, Rites and Merits, like you usually do.

>>44700430

Absolutely! But having the entire second half of your book be dedicated to the God-Machine gives the wrong impression, I think. It makes the temptation to go "God-Machine did it" a little bit too strong, even if the being and its actions and motives themselves are a mystery. It's fine when it's an entire book about the God-Machine Chronicle, but I think CofD as a corebook should be mostly be leaning on its Horror and Ephemeral beings system.

I really, really like the adventures in the God-Machine book, and they're still good in CofD core rulebook. I just think that maybe it would have been better for it not to be there.

>>44700466
>Fucking EVERYONE complains about the layout. Why do you think WoD has places like subnet and WoD Index?
For easy access when you don't have books.

It's really just you two, and considering you're not playing games I don't see the problem.

>>44701141
>It makes the temptation to go "God-Machine did it" a little bit too strong, even if the being and its actions and motives themselves are a mystery.

Speak for yourself. Just because you see God Machine in the book and automatically think it means everything is the fault of the God Machine doesn't mean everyone else is a fucking idiot too.

>>44701570
I'm running a game. My players are complaining about it.

>>44701600
He's not "speaking for" anyone. He's saying that it offers too easy an explanation. Pretend you don't know anything about World of Darkness and you get to the back of the book and suddenly it starts talking about this alien supercomputer that controls earth. It's not about being "a fucking idiot too", it's about what the game presents as it's default chronicle.

I mean, shit, you had people who have played the game for years think that the GMC was the new metaplot.

Get your head out of your fucking ass.

I would have been easier for everyone is OPP just released a true second edition like the original nWOD book with updates rules and mechanics, story hooks, and player and storyteller advice, and then released a separate second book with the God Machine Chronicles as a sample setting. Nothing would be competing for limited space, and people would more easily be able to take or leave the God Machine.

I also personally liked the old idea of having a separate nWOD/CofD rules book with the separate game lines NOT including a copy all the rules. Two books may be necessary to play and for character creations, but each individual book would contain far more material and since WW fans often purchase multiple game lines, the utility and cost value of the standard rule book would only increase.

>>44701852
>and then released a separate second book with the God Machine Chronicles as a sample setting.
Except they did that first.

I like having the core rules be in the gameline corebook in theory, but after bouncing between Vampire, Werewolf, GMC, and CofD, I'm realizing the problem there. There's a lot of stuff that's all *slightly* different. My hopes for CofD started crumbling when a player asked me which Parkour merit they were supposed to use, and pointed out that both Werewolf and CofD seemed to refer to rules that don't exist.

I haven't got the new CofD core book yet, but what's wrong with it?

All I remember hearing someone complain about is that it's peppered with references to "Fate", a mechanic they later removed.

>>44701995
Aside from the usual WoD problems, it's basically just GMC2: Electric Boogaloo.

It has a lot of new stuff, and that's great, but it also leaves out a lot of stuff that'd be really useful, like the Soul Loss mechanics. It also truncates a lot of rules that would be better if they were expanded on. 1e has way more information for everything than the 2e book, but the 2e book SHOULD be more complete and serve as a compilation of all the rules updates and necessary information that they've learned through all the years of writing WoD books.

For instance, they should put Swarm rules in the corebook instead of printing them like twelve times in various other books. They should print rules about how sometimes you take a -4 penalty unless you have a specific Specialty (such as motorcycles, from Armory). They could have used the expanded space to list off Derangements and add Conditions that can be taken when you get an Exceptional Success or to use like Flaws, or to elaborate on rules that they know will come up in future books because they came up all the time in 1e books and needed to be reprinted. Instead, they just reprinted a substantial portion of a book that a lot of people already own.

A lot of people were hoping for a mortals corebook that was like all the other 2e corebooks. Instead it's sort of disappointing.

>>44701600

But I don't? I've been playing well before God Machine Chronicle, I know its one mystery among many. You have to understand, though, a corebook is written for a new player, who comes in knowing nothing about the setting. Hell, you even have people who should know better freaking out over God-Machine stuff being "the new Metaplot" just because there was a big huge book of GMC adventures. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they see so much word count being spent on it, and think "oh this must be really important!" You even see this with people talking about Strix and Idigam getting the spotlight, when you can play the other aspects of the setting in the corebook of their respective lines. When God-Machine is half the book to the point where it gets its own special page opening, whose going to blame them for doing stuff with that over the other great material in the book?

It's a matter of emphasis, is what I'm saying. For Mortal, which is explicitly about "you don't know what the hell is going on", having half of the book be about a kind of mystery with one kind of answer may not be the best idea, even if that material is still really goddamn good.

>>44702715
> When God-Machine is half the book to the point where it gets its own special page opening, whose going to blame them for doing stuff with that over the other great material in the book?

They looked at the original book and had no idea what to do besides ghosts.

If you're new to the setting, you want material that helps you grok how the setting/mechanics work, and is interesting and unique and most of all easy because you don't have to make everything up.

That's what the Chronicles featured in every 2nd Edition book are there for.

The Strix are there to help answer the same question of "But what ACTUALLY happens?" by providing a strong example. Same with the Idigam, same with the God-Machine. They're detailed hooks to help new players actually play the game.

>>44702933
Yes, but the difference is the God-Machine's presence creates an answer not only to "what do we DO in this game?" but also "what is the source of all this supernatural stuff?"

The corebook's hook should be more generic, strange stuff. The God-Machine stuff should be kept in the God-Machine Chronicle book. They should have used stuff like the plot hooks in books like Mysterious Places, Asylum, Book of Spirits, Urban Legends, and also God-Machine Chronicle, instead of just one thing that, as >>44702715 says:
>For Mortal, which is explicitly about "you don't know what the hell is going on", having half of the book be about a kind of mystery with one kind of answer may not be the best idea, even if that material is still really goddamn good.

A book that was more guided towards lower level Hunter type stuff would have been preferred.

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>>44703864
>>44703864
>>44703864

Our header is getting really wordy.

>>44703763
>"what is the source of all this supernatural stuff?"

Wrong. The God-Machine exploits supernatural phenomena of all natures, and often interacts with them, but it isn't the cause of all of them, which is pretty clear in the GMC.

The God-Machine is never presented as the answer to the question of "why does the supernatural happen." It creates a force which actively does things to interact with the supernatural, but it's never suggested that the God-Machine causes it all. In fact, if it was, there wouldn't be the need for infrastructure to actually activate Occult Matrices.

The upcoming Deviant gameline will supposedly handle it well.

>>44703897
Again: Pretend that you're new to the World of Darkness and you don't know things.

The book tells you that this one strange supernatural cosmic computer is behind the scenes manipulating the world. You're going to assume that it's the default setting.