Was Tolkien a hack?

>>44445645
>>>/lit/

No more or less so than anyone who was inspired by mythology, put it through their personal filters and wrote down the result.

>>44445645
I think he's just overrated

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>>44445645

>>44445672
It's not /lit/ related according to the bitch fit /lit/ throws if Tolkien is mentioned.

>>44445771

/lit/ is retarded and arrogant

>>44445796
That's putting it mildly.

>>44445645
Of course not. I don't like his writings, but I'd never be stupid enough to call him a hack.
>>44445796
They're the worst board on 4chan, that's for sure.

>>44445839
>They're the worst board on 4chan
That would be /mu/

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>>44445645

>>44445868
/mu/'s pretty shit, but they don't approach "pls tell me what I should like so I can pretend I'm better than other people" levels of shit.

Tolkein's greatest flaw was being copied. By literally everyone who wrote any kind of fantasy novel.

Elves being perfect? Tolkien invented it, or at least put it in the public conscience.

Dwarves being greedy, short burrowing beards? Tolkien made them that way.

Orcs being Always Chaotic Evil? Tokien made them always evil, so of course they'd always be evil.

Tolkien was original. It's only in the context of everyone doing what he did that people see things done elsewhere in his writing.

>>44445937
>this entire post
yeah, nah

>>44445976
k

>>44445976

Nah, yeah.

>>44446041
>Elves being perfect?
They aren't perfect in Tolkiens setting (nor in most other settings), they fail in their attempts, they make bad decisions etc.
>Dwarves being greedy, short burrowing beards? Tolkien made them that way.
Basically directly from norse mythology
>Orcs being Always Chaotic Evil? Tokien made them always evil, so of course they'd always be evil.
There are settings where orcs aren't always evil, and even more settings where they are evil but not necessarily chaotic evil

>>44446087
That's better. Isn't life wonderful when you contribute to a thread?

Tolkien took inspiration from other works, like any other human (and he was not the inventor of worldbuilt fantasy, either). He was not a god. But this doesn't reduce his creativity, nor his importance, nor relegate him to the status of hack.

>>44445645
Tolkien was a visionary.
Which I suppose is not incompatible with being a hack.
>>44445796
>4chan is retarded and arrogant
ftfy

>>44445645

If stuff from your books shows up on TV Tropes, it means you're not original. If you're not original, you're a hack. JRRTs stuff shows up on TV Tropes. Therefore...

>>44446133
4chan is usually anything but arrogant. /lit/, however, is.
>>44446191
This just in; everybody in the history of mankind is a hack.

>>44446087
>They aren't perfect in Tolkiens setting (nor in most other settings), they fail in their attempts, they make bad decisions etc.
No, but they are very power and advanced. The general idea of elves as near ageless supermen is all down to Tolkien.

>Basically directly from norse mythology
Nope, dwarves are just a type of elf in norse myth.

>There are settings where orcs aren't always evil, and even more settings where they are evil but not necessarily chaotic evil
Orcs are very frequently chaotic evil.
Essentially that guy's comments were too extreme and general, but the points he's making are correct.

>>44446266
>Very few beings explicitly identifiable as dwarfs appear in the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda and have quite diverse roles: murderous creators who create the mead of poetry, 'reluctant donors' of important artifacts with magical qualities, or sexual predators who lust after goddesses.[5] They are primarily associated with metalsmithing, and also with death; as in the story of King Sveigðir in Ynglinga saga, the first segment of the Heimskringla, the doorways in the mountains that they guard may be regarded as doors between worlds.[6] One dwarf, Alvíss, claimed the hand of the god Thor's daughter Þrúðr in marriage, but when kept talking until daybreak, turned to stone much like some accounts of trolls.
They also dwelled in the earth, the "always bearded" part is Tolkiens own thing

>>44445868
Not like /lit/

>>44446266
Honestly there are increasingly few instances of always chaotic evil orcs ever since warcraft.

>>44446266
>Nope, dwarves are just a type of elf in norse myth.

Pretty much bullshit that they were just a "type of elf". The image of the dwarf we know existed long before Tolkien popularized it. Even in Disney's Snow White they were shown as the stereotypical "short men with beards who mine for precious stones".

>>44446208
>4chan is usually anything but arrogant.
topfef

>>44446555
Anon, you realise that every board usually has persistent undercurrents of "this board is shit, it used to be better" or even just "this board is shit and was always shit".

>>44445645
As a story writer? Fuck yes.
As a world builder? Nope, one of the best the world has seen.

>>44446613

Who in fantasy isn't a hack as a story writer, in your estimation?

>>44446608
Which is the person saying "I'm better than you/this board/etc." = arrogant as fuck.

>>44446128
>he was not the inventor of worldbuilt fantasy

This bit of info has caught my interest. What are some examples of earlier fantasy worldbuilding? (That is to say, someone who procedurely built a fantasy world's aspects rather then made them up as a story went along.)

>>44446655
There are quite a few, but an example is The Worm Ouroboros (which was a major source of inspiration to Tolkien). Now, I'm fairly certain Eddison didn't put in nearly the same amount of methodical effort into it that Tolkien did, but it definitely wasn't one of those Hyborean-style "shit I got a publishing deal better make something up" things.

>>44446655
Errrr...
That is a good question anon.
A worthy task for tgfags.
Let's find the earliest examples.

>>44446632
>who isn't a hack
Not relevant. The fact of the matter is that JRRT was a bad story teller in many ways, and frankly, The Hobbit and LotR are boring and hackneyed as fuck. This is him failing as a storyteller, especially the boring part.

That said, Middle Earth is fascinating as hell and richly detailed.

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>>44445645
Wow, everyone in this thread is getting trips!

>>44446655
>>44446742
There's also those two Victorian sisters.

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>>44446208
>4chan is usually anything but arrogant

>>44446800
Name?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_writer

>Hack writer is a colloquial and usually pejorative term used to refer to a writer who is paid to write low-quality, rushed articles or books "to order", often with a short deadline. In a fiction-writing context, the term is used to describe writers who are paid to churn out sensational, lower-quality "pulp" fiction such as "true crime" novels or "bodice ripping" paperbacks. In journalism, the term is used to describe a writer who is deemed to operate as a "mercenary" or "pen for hire", expressing their client's political opinions in pamphlets or newspaper articles. So-called "hack writers" are usually paid by the number of words in their book or article; as a result, hack writing has a reputation for quantity taking precedence over quality.

I don't think he qualifies.

>>44446832
Not by that definition. At all.

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>>44446208
>4chan is usually anything but arrogant.

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>>44446655
Woould this count?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comical_History_of_the_States_and_Empires_of_the_Moon

>>44446555
>>44446810
>>44446863
You realise your responses prove the point, right?

>>44446763

Is relevant because, between that post and this, I still have no idea what exactly he did wrong in your view. I remember reading those books and not being particularly bored or feeling that I've read this a thousand times before. Undoubtedly a failing on my part, maybe of memory, maybe of taste, maybe of both. But it leaves me mystified when people call him a hack and then refuse to elaborate or explain their criteria.

>>44446811
Huh. I actually found it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondal_(fictional_country)

>>44446655

I was going to say Lord Dunsany, but I don't really know if he'd count. He did have a book that was all fantasy worldbuilding though, the Gods of Pegana. To my knowledge he didn't actually use it to write any stories set there, aside from the myths and fables in the book itself.

>>44446832
>So-called "hack writers" are usually paid by the number of words in their book or article; as a result, hack writing has a reputation for quantity taking precedence over quality.
I want to say that Victor Hugo might fit. I mean, 50 pages description of Waterloo Battle just to mention two of the characters met there? Talk about fillers.

>>44446613

This is the best post in this thread. On point.

His writing sucks, but his love for building mythological shit shows.

>>44446763

To be fair, even Tolkien knew he wasn't a storyteller.

Middle Earth only exists because Tolkien wanted to come up with a fake language (Elvish) but knew that language doesn't develop in a vacuum. Language is heavily impacted by culture, history, and religion. So he had to come up with all of those things as well.

The setting of Middle Earth is only there because otherwise the language known as Elvish would be stunted and incomplete by his standards.

Eventually, he had so much material and had put so much work into it that it just became silly not to write it all down and share it. The stories are just the tiny pinhole through which we are able to view his true passion: Middle Earth itself, its history and culture and ultimately above all else its languages.

He isn't without flaw, but I think its safe to say that he is also basically unequaled. The only one who has come close lately is GRRM, who has different strengths. GRRM is a better storyteller, but hasn't gotten to the level of detail that Tolkien did in shit that honestly didn't matter to the story but was important to the setting.

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>>44446896
How about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy

>>44446695

It was basically something he worked on since childhood, as far as the characters and the world are concerned. And later he took his old doodles and daydreams and whatnot and made a novel.

>>44446863
We are not arrogant per se, we are smug - it's a important practice for those that hope to eventualy become little girl.

>>44446930
Set on two islands. Not really "world building".

IMO

Doesn't stack up to middle earth.

>>44446978

Pfft, barbarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_History

>>44447008
You don't know what world building is, then.

>>44446963

Most 19th century writers qualify since they were basically paid for quantity and worked accordingly. Hugo-Schmugo, he wasn't anywhere near Alexandre Dumas' level.

>>44446899
No.

>>44445868
>/mu/
>worse than boards like /tv/, /b/, /lit/, /x/

Haha, no. Besides, there are some legitimately great places on /mu/, like the /metal/ general.

>>44446973

GRRM should stick to being a storyteller. That's solid. His world building sucks dick.

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>>44447066
>Has obviously never been to /mu/
Yeaaah. I'mma stop you there.
>mentioning /x/
YOU LEAVE /X/ ALONE. WHAT HAPPENED TO HER WASN'T HER FAULT.

>>44447059
Yes.

>>44445645
Definitely not. He did not have any of a hack's virtues, like punctuality or a desire to appeal to an audience. He wrote for himself exclusively, kept a schedule so sluggish that he could never make a living as anything other than a tenured professor, and considered his readers to be more of a nuisance than anything. So if we're to place him in a category of bad authors, he belongs more with the crackpots like Henry Darger.

>>44446973
>builds centuries of history and culture to add authenticity to his imaginary language
I can imagine him posting here and everyone screaming autist at him

>>44446655
>>44446742
>>44446953

This might be of interest:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ring/index.htm

BTW, the site is packed with mythology and religion I never found anmywhere else.

>>44446655
No one going to mention the low hanging fruit of Dante?

>>44446655
Do the insane count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Darger

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>>44447518
>>44446978

>>44447345
Well, only an autist would be stupid enough to post that on here in the first place and expect us to care.

Anyone with an ounce of sense would keep it as far away from 4chan as they can and write/publish it properly first.

>>44447087
I like his world building, even if most of the interesting locations are those the books haven't visited. His map design is pretty bad though: if you look at all continents at once it's just a vaguely rectangular mass of land with bits hanging over and under it

>>44445645
This is obviously bait, but I feel obliged to respond.
No, he was not.

>>44448098
I dunno, if any board could appreciate it, it's /tg/.

I mean, /tg/ does appreciate it, but even if it wasn't the well-established foundation of modern fantasy.

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>>44445868
Agreed, they killed Lemmy.

>>44449226
Shit.

>>44449226
>Lemmy passed away today after a short battle with an extremely aggressive cancer. He had learned of the disease on 26 December, and was at home, sitting in front of his favourite video game from The Rainbow which had recently made it’s way down the street, with his family.
Nah, /v/ did

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Call me a hack again motherfucker

>>44447126
>YOU LEAVE /X/ ALONE. WHAT HAPPENED TO HER WASN'T HER FAULT.
No it really wasn't, but we all know who is responsible...
That's why we can never forgive /pol/

>>44446208
>4chan is usually anything but arrogant.
This website mainly consists of nerds who are some level of outcast and want to achieve some level of "rational thinking".
Combine those two ideas and you get nerds who think they can know some truth from thinking for themselves instead of talking to other "normal/close-minded" people.
It's a misconception we must all face. And arrogance is a big part of it.