ARMS AND ARMOUR THREAD

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>>44405080

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>>44405085

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>>44405080
because they are the master race

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>>44405097

Got anymore kettle helmet images? im pretty low tbqh fampatchi

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>>44405112
tons, but I have to get some food before I start dumping

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>>44405146

godspeed

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>>44405154
back, I remembered I still have a whole cake in the fridge

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>>44405181

And this comment reminded me I still have some pavlova in the fridge

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Dumping some pictures.

Starting with my favourite.

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>>44405252

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>>44405260

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>>44405278

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>>44405080
>Why are kettle helmets so based
Because you can cook in them. Not having to actually carry a several pot around with you would have been so convenient. Also you would smell like yummy all day.

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I had a big folder of knights and stuff that I uploaded for /ic/ a week or two ago, it's still up if anyone wants it. Quality varies drastically but there's some good stuff in there.

https://mega.nz/#F!TdJWDQDJ!kr0zZW1dAH2g1iby8rqvBw

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>>44405325
>Because you can cook in them.

you really cant. just because they are called kettle-helms, does not mean that they were kettles.

most were lined with leather strapping and riveted-in suspensions and textile padding which would make it utterly impossible to put any liquid in.

>>44405615
that's not what impossible means. You can totally cook in them and put any liquid inside them at least once. the fact that it fuck up your meal is another question. Plus I can totally cook in my kettle hat without problems as my doesn't have an integrated padding

>>44405754
ok, Impossible, if you want to consume the resulting trainwreck..

>>44405764
I know a lot of people who would consume anything if you put alcohol in it.

>>44408259
Wouldn't it be hard to shoot through those tiny vision slits?

okay so my salle doesn't allow kettle hats for contact sparring so

greathelm or sallet?

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>>44408300
that's the plan

>>44408333
kettle hat with buffe

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Who else /burgonetmasterrace/ here?

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>>44408354
while burgonets are okay they aren't a kettle hat master race. They are basically the bastard sons of kettle hats and sallets

>>44408348

Brainfart, I meant wouldn't it be kinda hard to aim through those slits. I for one would like to have good vision

>all these renaissance tin cans

You lads have anything Vendel period?

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>>44408409
you don't have to look through the slits all the time. And it isn't that restrictive as it seems

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>>44408450
Nothing from then, how about a nice greathelm though?

>>44405152
>no gorget

Come on, even Game of Thrones got this right.

Armet is best.

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>>44408492
I wish I could wear greathelms over my whole body

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>>44408855
Become the Greathelm Elemental

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>>44405294
>All those buttons.
>Top button on coat not done up
>No collar
>Buffcoat "jerkin"
Tut-tut-tut.

One of them looks awkward like a newbie, who was probably lent the crap spares, but the rest have no excuse ;)

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>>44408954
let's be honest here, 90% of everything is shit, reenactors are no exception

I have some questions for the experts here.

My worldbuilding project is set around a timeframe/"tech level" comparable to the 1250s, because I was trying to make a conscious effort to go for the "High Middle Ages" feeling.

Problem is, after doing some research myself and asking here before, I've come to realize that the types of armour available at that time don't line up with what I'd like the setting to have (product of my time that I am, I have associated 14-15th century armours with the "High Middle Ages"). So I'm considering shifting the setting's tech level a bit towards the 14th century.

My questions: around what time were the /BEAK BOYS/ that /tg/ so loves first a feasible equipment? What is the proper term for that get-up? (Both the armour...transitional?, and the helmet).
What technological breakthrough separates the 13th from the 14th century in respects to armour? Are there any .pdfs, websites or other resources where I could learn some of this myself instead of relying on /tg/ to spoonfeed me?

Thanks in advance, it'd be great if you could teach me some things.

>>44410052
"beak-boys" are houndskull or pig-faced bassinets. You start seeing them mid XIVth approx. As for transitional armours , the process begins around the 1330's with the first coat of plates.

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This fine chappie has a numbe rof excellent youtube videoes covering XIV Century armour, with a little on the evolution leading up to that point.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1T4KJG1L_kTrP9RcdU5Csw

He gives sources (with 2 videoes exclusively on web resources), tells you about exceptions to various trends and does not try to bullshit outside his specialty. Top notch stuff.

For the changing technology try to grap a pdf of "Knight and the Blastfurnace".

>>44410244
>>44410128
Thanks a lot, anon. I'll check out the book and the videos, too.

>>44405152
I always wondered, did knights/warriors paint their armors back in the day? I know decorative tabards and ornamental (and still effective) armors were a thing, but I've never read anything about painted steel plates.

>>44410317
The Bascinet video has a nice peice on the varous visor styles, including the ever popular houndskull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYXu8LGddWU

This video should also be mandotary viewing. The middle ages were not some homogenous mush where nothing ever changed dammit.

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>>44410052
Let's see if I remember everything correctly...

The glory days of the pigfaced bascinet is IIRC largely the latter parts of the 14th century, and a bit into the 15th.

Armour in this period is largely the full transitional. So you get plate for the limbs, your bascinet with a mail aventail, a mail hauberk for the body, and either a breastplate (no back plate, no faulds, nothign like that, maybe some side plates wrapping around the back a bit) or a coat of plates on top of that.

Later in the period (say, ca 1400 and onwards) the breastplate occasional gains a multi-piece back plate (the whole thing sometimes covered in fabric), and you can also get some faulds, either as a separate skirt or attached to the breast&backplate. Brigandine probably shows up around here too, a coat of plates that opens in the front, usually with smaller plates, and shaped more to the profile a breastplate would give you instead of the CoP's general shapelessness. It also around here that the full mail haubergon starts having the bits covered by plate cut away, leaving just patches for the voids in the plate shell, called voiders.

Recreations of the CoP's in the mass graves from the battle of Visby (1361): http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rustningar/index.html

I don't have any good place to send you on-line for an overview of things, but your best plate to start digging is probably http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/

Dig a bit and you should find some info over at http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewforum.php?f=1
probably has a few late 14th century kits, the standing joke is that it's very popular with certain people since it's a very "roomy" style, lacking the wasp waist of many full plate variants.

>>44410406
And I forget the second link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7w-_QH607U

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/r/ing guys wearing leather over their maille. Cuir Boli I think it's called.

>>44410346
yep, a fuckton of armor were painted and colorful. Sadly a lot of fuckwiths who worked at the museums cleaned that off because HURR-DURR ARMOR MUST BE SHINY

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Now if you're prepared to hit the books...
Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight (Edge&Paddock) should be a good starting point, covers the 11th to 16th centuries. Gives you a century by century rundown of things.

Oakeshott's "European Weapons and Armour" gives you an overview of full plate styles. Might be a bit dated, and the man does have some bias for the earlier stuff, getting decidedly less happy about things towards the 17th century.

Capwell's "Armour of the English Knight 1400-1450" covers just what it says it does. In massive, glorious, enchanting depth and detail.

>>44410244
>For the changing technology try to grap a pdf of "Knight and the Blastfurnace".

Can be found here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/pd3h7dsj6ps6j/PDFs

I feel like this might be relevant to the thread. A while back ago I made this. I've been meaning to add more, since I have more Osprey books, but I just haven't yet.

http://imgur.com/a/KMNO0

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>>44410346
The fashionability of it varied with time, and to some degree which style of armour, but it did happen from time to time. The black sallet (so called because it was usually delivered still black from the forge to cut cost, it was a grunt's helmet) for example was supposedly painted more often than not, probably often with a motif relating to whatever lord had bought it, and a few dozen or hundreds just like it, to stock his armoury.

Here's one with the original paintjob in good condition.

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Early 16th century half armour with an IIRC somewhat later, but still working life, paintjob.

Anyone know if pic related is based on museum examples? I can't imagine why else someone would illustrate something with random broken hafts.

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>>44410615
Forgot image.

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It's also been noted that while things like mail and sword blades are always the same colour in the Maciejowski bible, the helmets are not. The whole thing can be found here, if you can parse the late 20th century Geocities-style site: http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm

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>>44410615
>>44410636
Looks like it could be real ones (or real 19th century historismus). The shafts are almost certainly not broken though, the artist simply didn't draw all of them to keep the illustration a bit more compact. So they're whole, and a bit longer in reality.

A modern day replica, which may or may not be accurate and which may be based directly on the original or on the illustration, of the right hand one: http://lutel-handicraft.com/?p=productsMore&iProduct=157&sName=Battle-axe-20012

>>44410595
>>44410612
>>44410529

Thank you. Does anyone perhaps know what kind of paints were used and if they offered any greater or lesser rust protection than regular oil care?

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>>44410730
The paints where probably just whatever was available at the time. So tempera for example. I'd imagine it'd be a far mroe long-lasting rust protection than oil, as he binder keeps it stuck in place, but you'd have to be careful about rust setting in and spreading under the paint, if that happens the oxidation process can actually be accelerated in the thin slit between metal and paint.

Which reminds me that I need to go give my car a checkup now that it seems we're finally getting some winter weather here, and with that road salt.

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>>44410346
KM and Hungarian have the plate stuff covered.

However there is an intriguing mention in Chreiten de Troyes "Perceval" (c.1170) of a red hauberk belonging to the first knight Perceval kills in order to prove his worth. He then wears it for the duration of the unfinished poem, as earns the moniker "Red Knight".

Following this Red Knights become a monor feature of Arthurian legend, cropping up again for example in Malory.

I am currently unaware of any recorded instances outside of Arthurian poetry, but the possiblity of painted hauberks is an intriguing one.

>>44410851
Wouldn't a painted hauberk literally shed the paint over time?

>>44410851
Probably would be incredibly expensive. The most effective way to paint it would be to dump it in dye, and that shit is expensive.

>>44410881
Yep, the natural process of wearing it would strip the paint off. This is most often seen when the rings have been blackened as a rust prevention measure.

Though of course if the hauberk does get rusty it will partially clean itself through friction while it is in use.

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>>44410947
I don't see a dye doing much to iron. A proper paint is probably necessary to do anything much. Of course, this would also tend to glue the rings together...

A somewhat rational explanation might be that the red colour got shifted from a fabric garment worn on top of the mail onto the mail itself as the story was retold, before finally being written down.

>>44411112
Alternatively he could have worn a surcoat with red sleeves.

>>44411112
The problem there is that Chreiten is writing a little before surcoats become fashionable and they do not feature in his romances where maille is worn without a covering garment.

Not to mention that his knightly audience would be able to tell the difference between a red hauberk and someone wearing a red surcoat (once they become popular) over their armour.

I will just go and hunt the relevant passages if it would be of interest to the thread.

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>>44411231
As the stories of King Arthur et.al. are pretty old, I'm thinking it may perhaps have done the jump some generations before? Depends on how original the man got, I have no idea about that bit. And if this takes us back before things where worn over mail, might it go back to mail being quite rare too? So we have someone wearing a red tunic, which then became a red hauberk as people started experting the guy to be armoured?

And yes, these are definitively uninformed guesses across the board.

>>44411383
Chretien is the first authour who tackles Arthurian legend from a chilvalric romance perspective. While he does take a lot of elements from Geoffrey of Monthmouths pseudo-historical texts along with other folklore material (including welding French folklore such as Lancelot to the mythos) he also invents or reinterprets a lot of material.

In typical fashion of the Chanson de Geste, Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table are portrayed in contemporary Anglo-French style. Maille coverage is by this point cap-a-pie with mitted hauberk and leggings while surcoats are a few decades later.

The Red Knight is notable (and named) pretty much only for his unsual armour, so it is unlikely that this is a re-interpretation of an existing figure who wore a red tunic.

So it would seem that the Red Knight indeed wore a red hauberk. Whether this is an invention of Chretien's, or it has precedent either in reality or French chivalric tradition is unclear but I have not been able to find any references to Red Knights before him.

>>44410730
well there were several kind, most common as far as I know is oil+pigment, for example black pigment could be coal powder.
But you could heat treat the armor for the right color too, that would give a very thin oxide layer on the armor with a nice color.
And there are a various other kind of paints too

>>44410881
well, you can repaint it. Every paint will shed over time especially on armors if you got hit by swords and such so sooner or later you need to repaint it.
Also if it's a tightly fitted one then the sheding won't be that bad.

Also rust could be a very good orangeish-red pigment but I'm pretty sure there are other, better options as well. Fill a barrel with oil and the pigment mixed in it, drop the hauberk there, wait a few hour or a day depending on how much fucks you give, get it out, let it dry, repeat until the effect is good enough for you. done

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>>44412007
>wait a few hour or a day depending on how much fucks you give,

I don't see the paint penetrating into the metal, and as such shouldn't the soak time be utterly irrelevant? Well, assuming you get it out before the whole thing dries.

>>44412121
It remains something of an sore point for a friends Living History exhibit of manuscript production that so many of the materials simply cannot be let anywhere near the public due to being toxic, carcinogenic or otherwise dangerous to handle.

It really is astounding just how many pigments in the middle ages were poisonous to use.

>>44412121
well, it ain't gonna go anywhere and won't do any bad. Also the mixture isn't really homogeneous either so a little time to everything settle down inside couldn't hurt

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>>44412340
And there's always fire gilding.

>>44412645
Mercury and gold alloy spread like butter before the mercury is baked off if I remember correctedly.

I'm glad I do a period where maille is the order of the day, or surely I would bankrupt myself even faster.

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>>44412777
Correct.

Now, if someone could give me a full chemical fume cupboard, I have a string of items on my hit list that I really, really want to make.

At least gold inlay only damages the wallet, instead of the central nervous system.

Are there any pictures of knights wearing kettle helms? As far as I know, they're more of an infantryman thing.

>>44413085
define knight

>>44408348
Looks a bit like a sallet minus the face guard.

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>>44413085
Here is a picture from the Macieowski Bible (c.1250).

The chappie in the centre is on a horse, wearing a mitted hauberk and a surcoat while rocking a kettlehat. This screams fashionable man-at-arms with style and money who wears a kettlehat.

There is also a lovely anecdote from the 6th Crusade where the King of France is given a kettlehat to wear by one his companions as they endure an arrow storm.

It might not be the most common choice for chevaliers, but knights and kings wore them if they wanted to.

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Gothic Plate Armor was pretty much the pinnacle of armored suits (with the exception of Greenwich Armour) before the era of knights in shining armor died out.

>>44405439
>female
>knights and warriors
TRIGGERED

Thanks, anon.

>>44413224
even sallets wants to be kettle hats

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>>44405615
>>44405754

The British museum actually has a kettle hat that was, in fact, converted into a kettle. So you could cook in one if you really wanted to. Of course, this was a more permanent conversion.

>>44414446
Didn't US soldiers sometimes use their steel helmets to boil coffee in WW2? This ruined the temper of the steel but hey, any caffeine in a shitstorm I guess.

>>44413134
I just want to see if there are any examples of people wearing kettle hats with plate or brigandines.

>>44408954
>renaissance pikemen actually fighting each other
that's a good way for literally everyone to end up dead

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>>44415250
there is a reason why it's called bad war

>>44415150
look at these
>>44405191
>>44405259
>>44405364
>>44408259
>>44408348

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I need refference for the early 17th century; from people, to clothes, to crops, to arms, to armor.
Western Europe mostly; other regions/continents/countries welcome as well.

idk where to find proper reference for what people wore about on the daily, however; that is what I need help with the most.

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Kettle hats for weebs.

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>>44405080

the trouble with neck protection that extends up that far is that it just makes the wearer look socially anxious and shy.

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>>44412121

You could glaze any paint onto the metal couldn't you? Failing that, gilt the fuck out of everything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt68Ymedc6k

>>44410541
>Can be found here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/pd3h7dsj6ps6j/PDFs
Mother of god, this is a fucking goldmine. How did you come by such a repository?!

>>44423215
Hey, how long were longswords known to get?

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>>44424575
depends entirely what you take to be a longsword, and when it becomes a 2-handed sword.

this however, is 1m 30cm.

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What are some types of large shields that where used around 14th to 16 century?

I would also like some image examples

Finally, Ive seen some smaller shields that have a same shape as the shield on the right in pic related, what are they called?

>>44424575
rule of thumb: if you put the tip on the ground and the pommel doesn't go above your hip then it's a one handed sword, if it's between the hip and armpits somewhere then it's a hand and a half and if it reaches the armpit then it's a two handed one.
Of course that's just a rule of thumb and many exceptions there, plus some overlapping, but a good starting point

>>44426414
hand pavesie or hand pavese and a fuckton of other writing form there are.