Shadowrun General /srg/

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>>44178675
I mean, there's plenty of room in Shadowrun to come up with one-note gimmicks, the kind of character no GM would allow a player to take but who are perfect for a counter-runner.

I don't understand the issue; you just use standard mooks, then add your special boss on top for a bit of spice and challenge. Unless they are the active agents (hunting the runners) then it's easy to fit them into a run.

2nd for nanomachines, son

>>44178675
Shadowrun's so lethal that it's honestly kind of underwhelming a lot of the time. Scary bad guys most often are the mental types. That said, I have put in some Real Badasses who the players probably shouldn't attack, and then waited for the players to come up with a way to turn the fight unfair.

>>44178675
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>>44179438
I just step up the defenses, both in strength and depth. It's damn rare for the PCs to surprise someone I built for a fight, because by that point they've already tripped half the alarms in the place. And if they manage to sneak in and give them a monofilament necktie, so much the better.

Similarly, the guy has some Edge to burn to prevent a lucky shot from taking them out the first round of combat, not to mention the top of the line armour and weapons.

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>>44179532
I like watching it build up until someone remembers to clear it. It's like a little time capsule of /srg/

>>44178675
So are SURGEs worth it?

Seems like a waste of of 30 points just to customise your character

I know mana isn't high enough for things like invisibility cloaks or magic carpets or whatever, but what about a weapon that increases your strength when you hold it? I could just do it with alchemy but having to recast it all the time is a chore

>>44179599
SURGE is the wet dream of minmaxers and furries. You can make some crazy builds if your DM is dumb enough to let you take the third level.

>>44178675
Nothing the face says works due to 100% verifiable evidence of some kind, a large amount of guards, better base stats, convince the party to spend edge on stupid shit first so they have less to work with.

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>>44179621
8/10, would be eviscerated by.

>>44179534
I keep Edge as player-only for the most part, because to me it's basically Plot Armor. I'll give it to NPCs if they need to exist for plot reasons, stuff like that. That's viable, though.

>>44179610
When items like that exist, they're powerful and ancient to the point where most PCs aren't ever going to touch one. Magical effects beyond foci and alchemy are the kinds of things that dragons spend their waking hours looking for.

>>44179610
>what about a weapon that increases your strength when you hold it?
Isn't that just a Weapon Focus?

>>44179621
that chrome is on point i say
pretty good

what's her name? i wanna check out more cosplays if there's any

>>44179940
I'm more than likely wrong, but I want to say she's just someone who works for HBS, rather than a proper cosplayer or anything.

>>44179940
>that chrome is on point i say
that psychotic grin not so much

>>44178675
I like bosses that are evil manager type people. They do dastardly deeds through others, and you can keep them alive as long as you want by not having them accessible.

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So, I'm new to Shadowrun, but I want to make an adept who is specialized in throwing used batteries at people, supercharged with magic.

Is it doable?

>>44180059
>an adept who is specialized in throwing used batteries at people
You can do that.

>supercharged with magic
The batteries themselves can't be charged with magic, I'm afraid.

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>>44179970
>>44179940
>>44179621
She does work for Harebrained, and put the arms together for them: http://osirisprops.blogspot.ca/

>>44180059
Throwing adepts are my specialty!
5e or 4e? Or earlier?

High strength, agility, and edge.
Magic? nah, don't need that, mystic adepts are for people who can't brain a man with a thrown pen.

>>44180059
What >>44180090 said, but if you really want you can get alchemical preparations that have electric damage.

>>44180155
ooga booga where da white women at

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So due to shenanigans I have 24 workers laes'd out that I have to make go away. How do I do this without selling them to slavers or feeding them to ghouls or otherwise killing them?

>>44180258
... Just let them go?

Laes means they'll have forgotten you, so you can just walk away and wait for them to wake up with nasty hangovers and no recollection as to why.

>>44180258
Put them on a big boat and push them into a lake.
Why not you know?

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>>44180285
It's complicated. I'm supposed to make them "go away," it's safe to assume this means kill them but I'd rather not if I have a choice. Just leaving them there doesn't solve the problem.

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>>44180323
You're not giving us any details to go on, so I can't help. Anyone who wants all these people dead will also probably look at their newsfeed and hear that all these people came back with no memory, or alternatively that there was not a sudden disappearance of 2 dozen people. You don't want to kill or permanently remove them by force, so unless you have a boatload of cash sitting around to convince them all to walk away from their lives and go live under fake identities in the Caribbean League, not much we can do.

>>44178675
Our GM put in a boss that was the former head of Dunkelzahn's Secret Service detail... we fought her on top of a yakuza boss' speeding limo and it was only through a pre-edged APDS Super Warhawk shot with 8 net hits that I was able to kill that bitch.. she killed our technomancer and damn near killed our Adept.

>>44180258
Send them fake invites to a company sponsored vacation. Load them all up onto a bus driven by someone you can trust and have them driven out into the middle of bumfuck nowhere, preferably several days away and dangerous. Drop them off by some landmark that doesn't look immediately dangerous or odd and tell them they'll be met by a second driver shortly.

Then leave them there, and the problem will go away by itself.

>>44180380
Got a job offer to remove striking workers. Rest of the team didn't like killing innocents and wouldn't listen to me when I said there was a nonlethal way to do the job. Job is in Nigeria. I was gonna sell them as slaves, but if I do my mentor spirit, shrek, will get angry with me. The boat idea is good though. The Johnson doesn't care if they die or not, he just wants the strike to end.

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>>44180161
5th.

So, how do I stack enough modifiers to "brain a man with a thrown pen"?

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How involved should a decker get with a politically active technology-focused group that goes to near-terrorist levels to keep the Matrix and tech free for all? I owe them a big favor, but I'm worried about getting an actual corp after me, and I don't want to get too tied to any one group.

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>>44180323
>supposed to make them "go away,"
>trying to make it appear he's done his job without doing his job

Great way to get killed, or worse, blackballed from ever working the shadows again.

>>44180822
The Johnson's specifically said he didn't care if I killed them or not, he just wanted the problem gone. Killing was never a requirement, just that the strike be broken. The problem has been solved though, the ghouls are eating well tonight.

>>44180948
So what exactly is the problem that he needs made gone? If he needs them to forget something, I'd say mission fucking accomplished.

>>44180452
Oh, just scare the bajeezus out of them. I mean, you proved you could kill them, but chose not to. This is their second life. Think of that scene in Fight Club when Tyler threatens to kill the convenience store clerk.

>>44181213
>the next day, they use their new freedom to beat their boss to death and become pirates
>Another day on the Gold and Ivory coasts

>>44180476
Adept powers. Missile Mastery for one, missile parry is useful aswell, rapid draw because why not.

Improved attribute to already high strength and agility (attribute boost is for chumps), aptitude for throwing if you want.

Troll or ork is good, high strength which is throwing damage, and good agility limits for higher rolls.

Gonna want to throw big batteries or GM will just rule they hardly do anything, even with missile mastery and your ridiculous damage.

Specialise in non aerodynamic and argue batteries fall under that category, might have to argue they only do stun damage, but in 5e, everything is stun damage.

Maybe get a way so you can get more levels on adept powers, think it was warrior's way or athlete's way that deals with this stuff, been a while. get a geas too if you want, go wild. Don't go too hard though or you'll piss the GM off.

Backup in melee and carry tomahawks. Good throwing damage and decent melee damage with high strength.

harpoons and javelins do +1 damage over it though, and a boomerang (if you can talk you QM into it) can take a minus on rolls or damage to be a sport boomerang that returns after being thrown, regardless of where it hits, and that's where missile parry comes in useful. Open chummer and look at the stats of them all for those situations where batteries are too much.

There's more, better to ctrl+f the word Throwing into all the books you have and figure out what you want.

>Playing with new-er group
>Ork street sammy, Lonestar beat cop either going to doublecross Lonestar or the Runners
>We have to go into a Lonestar station to retrieve this box
>Nobody says what's in box
>Set off small charges throughout lower Downtown L.A
>Run in, set off a couple gas bombs in the station
>I take two guys and run down to the armory/evidence lockers
>One is the new guy in our group
>He's that guy to a T
>Hosting the game, yet is dead asleep when we show up
>Had a week to roll a character, didn't
>Took him 3 hours to even get the game going because "Need character. Need to run out for snax."
>Nigga.jpg

ANYWAY

>Grab duffelbags and start stuffing guns and evidence in
>Hey we found the box
>There's also Renraku guys here.
>Red Samurais. Oh shit.
>COMBAT ROLLS
>Leave our minmax adept to do his thing, he's doing work
>Get a couple good shots off with my HAR
>New guy refuses to use anything other than dual pistols
>Roll
>"One jams."
>"I THROW MY GUN AT HIM."
>What
>"I throw my gun! If I can't use it, he can't either."
>"Clearing a jam is a simple action though."
>"...Oh."

>>44180323
>>44180452
>>44181213
>>44181321
Seriously?

Load them into a cargo crate with plenty of food and water and pay the cargo ship dude to drop them off like, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the fuck down the coast from where you are. A few countries over.

>>44181642
>Load them into a cargo crate

And how do you plan on getting these 24 people into this cargo crate, oh wise one?

>>44181925
the correct term here might be shipping container.

>>44181925
They're laes'd out, how hard could it be?

>>44181540
So is...dual-wielding like the worst thing ever in 5e?
I can't really see a use for it so far, unless the target has been like heavily weakened and can't dodge effectively.

>>44182154

Dual-wielding is a bad idea in real life. Shadowrun's rule somewhat simulates this.

>>44182154
Ahahahaha
It's doable I guess, I bandito'd out.
Hard though, and rules lawyers GM's will FUCK YOU UP M8
Chill gm's will acknowledge it and give you a little negative modifier, especially for dual firing.

>>44182154
its sort of useless unless youre going dual revolvers, which then it can be pretty useful for overcoming the single shot limitation just a little.
4th friggin milkshake captcha. i know i want one, damn.

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making a custom campaign with this editor is a fucking nightmare

how could they even stand making 3 games with this archaic piece of god forsaken shit

>Local Half Price Books has a small rpg secion
>Constantly stocked with obscure used books
>Entire row dedicated to SR splat books from 3e and earlier
>Read up like crazy
>Even work up the courage to have Weisman sign my 20th anniversary core book after missing out a few years ago
>Still too scared to run a game

Fuck man. How do you guys do it? This system is so intimidating.

>>44182501
Jump in and make a lot of mistakes and eventually you stop making a lot of mistakes.

If I'm making a shark changeling, what trait should I use for it's teeth? Also, should I use rhino hide or blubber for sharkskin?

>>44182723
Natural weapon?

>>44182723
Natural weapon: Fangs are close, may not be as powerful as you hope.

Chrome Flesh has Sharkskin Orthoskin, see about using that.

>>44181540
I now kind of want to see a character who keeps a pistol with a gene-safety in the grip, demanding to duel people fairly with equal guns, only to shock the one guy that agrees to it into unconsciousness.

>>44182723
Reminds me of the time I made Pingu.
Goood times.

>>44182807
Would sharkskin require additional clothing costs from the damage it would do from rubbing? I could always just refluff elongated limbs.

>>44182919
Per RAW? No

There's not a lot out there that I could find on Leviathans. Any of you runners out there go up against them? What sources should I be looking at?

>>44183027
I more meant as a way to get sharkskin on a changeling, without adding a new quality.

>>44180285
is renting a bus not an option? sub contract it 3 times if u want to b real discreet, but in 12 hours they wont b there and u can sleep easy.

>>44182856
Seventeenth century was a long time ago, omae.

>>44182856
I like this. A lot. Might see if I can't run this in my next game.

>>44184046
Depends how he plays it. if he introduces his character as some super hammed up weeb demanding HONORABRU DUELS, it could be amazing when he reveals it.

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>>44181540
>nonchalantly stealing firearms from Lonestar
>no mention of RFID countermeasures

I love you guys sometimes.

>>44182154
You'll take a penalty to your offhand weapon which can be mitigated with a quality.
In exchange you reload less frequently and can split your dice pools against multiple targets in some circumstances you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

Just realized that the only reason I like Glory so much is because she's a character I would make if I made female characters,

Is it possible to have a drugs somehow make you seem dead on astral space? I'm asking because I have a run in mind that involves someone taking a drug to seem dead in meatspace and to technology, but I don't know if it's possible to do it in Astral Space

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>>44182856
!YEKKA!

Hey, I missed you in the last thread.

In both 5.175 and 5.178, clicking on the up or down arrows on an Adept power sets the power's level to 0, after which it won't change. I've tried this with eight different powers and I'm getting the same result using both Sum To Ten and Karma build methods. I'm on Windows 8.1, and my friend who also has that setup isn't having this issue. Is there some info I can get you to help figure this out?

Obviously I discovered weird adept power shit in Chummer as soon as I actually needed to make an adept. :-/

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>>44184808
Not that I can think of. Maybe some voodoo shit. Sounds like a fun side-mission.

>>44184611
What is with the weird jaw tray thing? Looks incredibly uncomfortable and like it would make it impossible to turn your head.

>>44178675
They're corporate.
They wear a suit.
They have other people to do their fighting for them.

If they're worth their office, you should really only be attacking their operations, not their person.

>>44185072
I dunno. I've seen it in anime too, maybe it is some design aesthetic leaking into both sides of the Pacific that is meant to look vaguely futuristic?

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>>44184808
>>44184926
Why yes there is, an awakened variant of slab called Reaper! Get yours today!

>>44179438
The whole real badass thing doesn't even necessarily need to be prevalent. All you need is to scale back the Monty Halling. Make the game less "I know a guy who can get me some military-grade plastic explosives, no questions asked." "Okay."

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>>44185072
Some kind of armor or part of some cyberware?
Seems to be a popular aesthetic.

>>44184909
Using my crystal ball of knowing where chummer's fucked, I'm going to guess you're using a power that affects skill levels, yes?

Is Astral Bluff a metamagic or a 'technique' (whatever the hell that is)?

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>>44185547
That was one of the ones I tried (Improved Attribute), but many others unrelated to skill levels were also affected by the bug.

>>44182154
4e? Use SS revolvers, fire one at a time.

5e? Not for you. It's an option for prime runner street samurai who need to split their dice pool to not hit their limits.

>>44185587
Ugh, I meant Improved Ability. Sorry.

What're some of the specific issues with 5e? I saw some stuff in the previous thread I think, but it was all vague about how the rules were vague and contradictory. What are some specific examples of that?

>Trying to convince our GM not to make the transition to 5e, because cross-edition character conversions are ALWAYS a cluster fuck, even when the editions aren't radically different. You'd think the idiot would have learned from the 3.5DnD to 4eDnD transition one of our other DMs made us go through.

>>44185602
Converting to 5e isn't that much of a hassle. Just don't follow the conversion guide's suggestion to double skill ranks, and sort out your gear changes.

>>44185587
>>44185598
The problem seems to be caused by Improved Ability, mostly. Anything that has an improvement to improve skills. The other guy's working on it, but he got sidetracked doing a complete rewrite of the skills system. There's nothing quite like volunteer work

So I read that PDF with twodee and the other shadow runners, spanning over a few characters, etc etc.

Was pretty good, but it read more like uh.. a filtered recount of what happened, rather than an actual display of what shadowrun games are like.

Anyone have anything more of the same, or something that goes more into detail from the player's perspective's also, regarding rolls, "Oh fuck we need to think of something!" moments, etc?

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>>44185637
Thanks for considering it. I'm still curious why it seemed to work fine for my friend but broke for me, given the similarity of our environments, but I'm happy to know that it's a known issue. Keep up the good work, dude.

>>44185842
Make sure the skill you're trying to add Improved Ability to has ranks in it, I think that's what consistently breaks it.

So, I'm coming from the Shadowrun Returns series, and I fucking love Trolls. The thing is, you pay a lot more for the privilege of being fuckheug in the pnp. To those of you who have more experience: is it worth paying the price of admission to be a troll if you aren't planning on doubling down on being a meatbrick soakface? Considering that a lot of the stuff you get from the metatype gets phased out by Augments, is it even worth being a tanky chrome troll?

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>Do fashion design irl
>Like making characters where their clothing and what brands they wear is a big piece about them
>None of my GMs give a flying fuck because Shadowrun is cyberpunk GRIM DARK TRENCHCOAT simulator
>Can't even GM because the players won't care or understand fashion and why I'm giving a -2 penalty to them because they wear the same clothing every single day on every single mission
I know I'm just bitching about wanting my cake and eating it too, but the idea of fashion in the Shadowrun universe is what drew me to it.

/srg/ I have a question for you: I know Free Spirits are a thing, but how good/bad are they at passing off for a (meta-)human in a mundane activity?

For instance, could one fake being a human well enough to be present at a reception or be invited to the restaurant on a business dinner?

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>>44186041

Also, does anyone have good troll arts?

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>>44185934
Aye, that unfucked it. Tricky; had to make sure it covered things like Mentor Spirits, too.

>>44186041
Yes, it is always worth it to be a high-body troll (or ork) if you're planning a soak build.

>>44186049

Certain specific ones might be, but on average, they're spirits. They tend to stick out, although some can disguise themselves as humans, or basically resemble humans. They could certainly be invited in of themselves to functions, if they invitee didn't mind turning some heads.

>>44186041
It's inefficient and suboptimal, certainly. Although the body and strength can sometimes give you a way out. Faces, hackers, etc.

>tanky chrome troll
Absolutely. Sammies turn when they hit you. Troll sammies hurt even more. And the body bonus means there's some very solid reality behind the idea of a trollbrick that's damn near immune to everything. Obviously you can get most of the way without trolling, but Trolls do tend to compliment the traditional street sammy archetype pretty nicely.

>>44186047

Please join my game...
>I'm the kind of GM for who brands and knock-off/variants have actual mechanical differences
>Group too new to be able to take advantage of it

>>44186047
>>Do fashion design irl
>>>/hm/

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>>44186105
I would but I have very limited time for sessions and I just joined in with a new group so here's hoping.
>>44186116
>>>/hm/
I have no idea what the fuck Moot was thinking when he created that board, it's fucking weird seeing as it's a yellow board.

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So...
R8 my sperglord of a decker.

>>44179621
>dragonfall
>one of the most complex rpg stories

jesus fuck is gaming already that shit that a 5 hour iOS game is complex nowadays?

>>44186238

>5 hours iOS game

... What?

>>44184046
>>44184134

It'd probably work better in the CAS.

>>44186267
have you even played "just click every hotspot your run across, cause there are only 2 per map" - the game?

>>44186220

You might want a backup for your fake SIN. Paying rent on a high Lifestyle with your running SIN can be pretty shitty if it gets burned.

Is having all your licenses spread across a bunch of fake SINs a bad idea? Would it be easier/better to have all your restricted gear licensed to your main SIN and then use then rest for specific things?

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>"Well let me tell you, it's not going to make it through the House of Representatives, no way," said a voice like wet gravel in a mixer. The troll was taking up the attention of half the people in the bar, but then, he was a troll. "Because they're trying to ban a meaningless phrase. Even if you set aside the issues with enforcement, Senator Hendricks drafted a law that can't decide what its job is. It's nice that "Assault Cannon" is a fancy, scary-sounding word after what happened at the Aztechnology Building in Denver, but what is it supposed to mean? That's the question Hendricks won't answer." He downed a beer so fast, he had to pour it down his throat with a special technique. "Yeah, we're all supposed to be talking about the extreme-range, high-velocity grenade launchers like those unnamed Shadowrunners used in Denver and Austin, but the legal code doesn't say that, because it also includes any rifles above a five-oh. Now, having been a big-guns guru with Tsunami, I can tell you, gimme a sec--" He downed another beer, "That there's hardly a difference between any of the current calibers above a .416 Barret when it comes to anti-materiel rifles. But half of them are illegal, and half aren't, if the destructive weapon control nuts on the conservative side are gonna have their way." He didn't order another beer, but he started waving his arms-- He was probably being as gentle as he could, but that meant the people closest by had to duck and cover. "The Ares Vigorous is made perfectly illegal while Barrett still punches out a dozen rifles that are just as deadly, and only the ones above a .50 are banned. It's senseless. You can't ban anything unless you know for damned sure what it is, and the legislators pushing this assault cannon ban have no idea what they're trying to outlaw. Ask any merc whether the Ares Vigorous and the Panther XXL are the same thing and you'll get a good laugh out of him."

>>44186764
The safest (but most expensive) way is to have a full set of licenses for each SIN, to be ready whatever happens.

A SIN for "everyday life" with just driving/firearms/CC for your everyday carry piece can be useful, but you better never do anything weird with that one.

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>browse some random links on shadowrun
>stumble across a blogpost with a big wall of text about tips for GMs
>perfect
>scroll through it
>something is strange about the pictures between the chapters
>they all are little screenshots from the my little pony cartoon
>immediatelly close tab

what scares me most is that these fuckers will one day not put their brony mark on something. and in my own stupidity, I will mistake it for good advice

Why are extra spirit/critter powers listed when you can't pick them? Or can you pick them?

>>44187457
If you make a critter then yes

Some critter powers can be taken by changelings, sub metahumans, and shapeshifters.

>>44187550
It's more that there's so many there which aren't listed under extra/optional powers. Unless I'm missing something

>>44187282
I don't understand anon. What does wanting to fuck horses have to do with being a good or bad gm?

So long as they aren't telling you to put horses in the game, I don't see a problem.

>>44187614
They're listed so the GM can use them for the critters and spirits. Unless you're playing a changeling or free spirit, you don't need them.

Same way the GM has rules for defending a host that they players only ever see one of.

>>44188063
Don't worry, you won't see the other ones, or at least not for long.

We just got a new player who's playing a Decker and uh...
He is getting absolutely trashed by even the most basic security systems.
If you fail a Sleaze action, you get Marked right?
And if you're marked you lose the element of surprise completely.

>>44189405
How many dice is he rolling for Hack on the Fly?

>>44189405
>He is getting absolutely trashed by even the most basic security systems.

Did he get the memo he's supposed to connect to his target directly?

Did your GM get the memo direct connection forces a target to defend with its own stats rather than the Host's?

At this point, how much more likely am I to find a 5e game, rather than a 4e game?

I was sort of sold on 4e, but then my GM dropped out, and I sort of like the system pretty well so far compared to the horror stories I heard from the GM and other players about 5e, so I really want to do that if I can.

>>44189460
Where are you looking for a game?

Online, the chance of findinbg a 5e game is higher than a 4e game. Meatspace, it really depends on your local people.

>>44189460

People bitch about 5e, but as a GM, I enjoy running it more, and I think you'll find more 5e games than 4e games online.

>>44189486
I'm confined to looking online only, basically.

But uh, are you telling me that only 1 in ever 5 games will be 4e? Or 1 in every.. 20 games will be 4e? Trying to figure if there's a baseline here so I can curb my hope appropriately.

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>>44184705

I see about half the guys I play with online play girls.

On one hand, it'd be autistic of me to tell players "You can only play as the gender you actually are", because some guys I've played with have handled paying a girl really well.

On the other hand, I can't help but feel like the only reason they're playing a girl is out of a subconscious, or not so subconscious desire to have a romantic/sexual connection, and them being geeks, TRPGs are one of the few outlets for that.

>>44189519
Ha
i'd direct you to a 4e campaign I found that looks decent but there's only 1 spot left.
5 is a lot more convoluted and i prefer 4 but gm's prefer running 5 so good luck finding a 4e game

>you've just come back from your most successful run
>no casualties, no evidence, not even any indication that you were there

>except the paydata was trapped with a honeypot, and your johnson was extracted barely three minutes after you left the meeting place and you could still hear his digitized screams from twenty blocks away over the matrix and splattered over the astral planes
>now your fixer, pale faced and haggared and with two new cyberfingers is calling you up, and telling you that "a senior corporate executive is so astounded by the quality of your work from your last job they want to hire you for some personal missions at a 30% bonus rate" and the look on his face begs you not to say no.

What do you do, /srg/?

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>>44189519

Put it this way. If you see a game of Shadowrun on roll20 or some other site, and it's looking for players, you should express your interest right away, because odds are a dozen people have already applied.

And of that small percentage of games that show up online, it's rare to see anything but 5th edition.

In short, quit being afraid of new things just because some people said bad things about it. Form your own opinion after trying it. 5e has a lot going for it, and you may end up liking it better.

>>44179438
This. I prefer MGS style bosses for Shadowrun campaigns. Boss fights that are clearly and absolutely stacked against the players, so they have to get creative with how they deal with it. Getting the hell out is always an option.

>>44189764
Could you give me a sales pitch for it? Sounds like you are looking at it from a different angle than my past, uh, advisers.

>>44189696
>Only 1 spot left

S-sounds perfect for me A-anon

>>44189866
One spot left that i'm taking bruv.
I will be Gm'ing a game in the near future of 4e when my timetable evens out, so maybe then.

>>44189950
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6GDil0rGls

>>44189747

Disappear for a while, assuming you couldn't find conclusive proof that it was a honeypot. Apparently giving Johnson's boobytrapped data isn't doing your life expectancy any favours, even if it's feasible that you didn't do it.

>>44186047
>making characters where their clothing and what brands they wear is a big piece about them
>>None of my GMs give a flying fuck because Shadowrun is cyberpunk GRIM DARK TRENCHCOAT simulator

I hate that this is what Shadowrun has become. I miss my pink mohawk.

>>44190011
Drop your skype or email or roll20 name or something like that so I can send you my game if i run it, or any sessions with spare slots I see you bludclart.

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>>44189866

Sure. I was actually introduced to Shadowrun back in 4e. I both played in and GM'd a number of sessions. Got to say I like 5th edition much better.

The Matrix rules. Yes, they're arbitrarily reworked to bring back geek-wankery for cyberdecks, but the ruleschange itself was good. It meant the hacker had to travel with the team. You can still hack from a safe location if you need to, but with better DNI rules, getting right into the facility with the team and plugging into whatever you need to hack can make a run go way smoother.

Not to mention the rules for grids, hosts, and wireless data. I actually really like them. It adds an extra dimension of challenge, and more of a cloud-based data storage can open up a lot of different possibilities.

Some people say the Matrix feels less like real internet hacking in 5e, but I don't think that was true in 4e either. It depended on how your GM described things, not the rules themselves.

Combat is pretty much unchanged. People complain that everyone by magic users are gimped. I admit, if you want to go full autist optimized build, burnout adepts are still the way to go, but trust me, it's MUCH better than it was in 4e. I once ran a one-off with a party of all adepts. Believe it or not, they actually performed wayyy better than a balanced party, and I can only think of one other group I ran for that was more blatantly OP.

As for riggers and technomancers being gimped, that's honestly just CGL being greedy and forcing people to buy their books so their niche classes can be good. They were designed bad from the start with that intent in mind, so complaining about it just feeds into exactly what the corps want, omae.

I could go on, but I think 5e's better in a lot of ways than 4e, and I don't think many of the complaints against it are justified.

What are your reservations against it? What have you heard?

>>44184611
>not running a jammer on certain frequencies
>not having a non-linear-junction-detector
>not having a tag eraser

RFID a shit

But seriously, some people just don't run simulationist games and that's okay.
Shadowrunning works because of huge holes in corporate and governmental security.

>>44190062
Good riddance to bad rubbish! Pink Mohawk bwing far too often synonym with Full Retard,a systwm that forces people to use their brains is more than welcome.

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>>44186047

Dude.

>> tfw when I make a character with a full wardrobe, with brands/full clothing descriptions, and accurate prices based on brands/sizes, and the GM won't give a bonus because RAW doesn't say it should.
>> only wearing the same overly fancy armored coat everywhere, all the time gives you a social bonus.

>>44190117
Isn't that a GM and player issue more than anything else? It's not like Black Trenchcoat doesn't have it's own range of obnoxious practises. Killer GM's from 2nd ed ADnD 'forced you to use your brain', but it wasn't particularly a good thing.

>>44190079
4th ed was abstract enough that it felt real though. It didn't have all this 80s esque foofoorah about it. 5th did some effective things with the matrix, but it feels like a bad sci-fi movie.
>had to travel along
That was never an issue in 4th if the GM didn't want it to be. And there weren't issues like noise making the average cyberdeck about as powerful as a 1980s cell phone.
>combat
Did change. No narrow bursts, and defense pools against guns doubled. Drones are also very fragile, and single shot weapons are way less viable, particularly with the called shot damage changes.
And that's on top of the massive upcosting of 'ware, on top of wireless bonus nonsense (not that I don't like the general concept, but the implementation felt very clumsy).

>>44190076
Sure thing Anon.. let me just spend 5 or 10 minutes picking out one or making one.

Apparently my skype is..

"transparentcatnom"

>>44186047
>the awful fucking fashion CGL writes
>the only reason I haven't written a PDF of replacements is because nobody I know would touch the shit
should I do it lads

>>44190211
uh, full auto is much less overpowered in 5e if anything

>>44190079

Mostly what this anon said >>44190211

>>44190244
Do it m8, I'm no fashionqueer but shit, it sounds like something I'd like to game with.

>>44190244
At the cost of requiring players to spray wildly with any automatic weapons rather than having choice. Plus it's a double whammy of making (in comparison) single shot weapons rather inaccurate. +9 DV could have been improved upon, but it's another case of 5th ed throwing the baby out with the bathwater by drawing a straight line between two points rather than thinking about it a bit.

>>44190211
Uh... Single shot weapons are immensely more viable in 5e than in "all the full auto, all the time" edition.

>>44190211
>it felt real
>early-00s "lol everything's a cellphone" shit that's literally more dated than cyberdecks already
I don't understand this mindset. The 2e matrix is closer to reality than 4e's, because all it ignores is ubiquitous wi-fi, which was overdone by 4e in the first damned place. 4e's matrix just masturbated over a couple of cheesy contemporary tech trends until it blistered.

>>44190079
"Combat unchanged"
Just armour instead of just ballistic and impact, guns were made better, unarmed and throwing and melee got nerfed especially with loss of power throw and martial arts DV increases, some other shit yadda yadda.

The called shots were confusing aswell, like if you didn't want to just say "i shoot" you'd lose up to ten dice or even more sometimes, even with qualities stopping it. Less cool shenanigans.

Full adept parties do great, believe it or not adept assassins and snipers and all sorts are good, not every adept runs in wielding a car.

I had an adept decker, mostly for combat senses and perceptions and asensing since he was a paranoid fucker.

Playing decker is so fucking boring to me though, and having to sit through your decker's activities is even more boring to me. Good thing my group was funny as fuck and the decker was a great roleplayer that it didn't deter me, especially in 5e.

it seems 5e is made more for roll players than role players in my opinion.

i'm just mad because my 4e minmaxes don't work in 5e

>>44190227
added
i'll send you anything I find

>>44190288
>requiring players to spray wildly with any automatic weapons
The fact that 4e erroneously explained dodge penalties as "spraying" and damage bonuses as "aiming" has nothing to do with those things being the actual bonus. plus what are you talking about there's plenty of non-automatics with good accuracy

>>44190211
I disagree. A setting where you play small/medium time criminals is made all the more better by encouraging players to use their brains and stay under the radar rather than kill everything forever. If you want to play a hack-n- slash, then play a goddamn hack-n-slash.

>>44190289

The damage values are nice (and part of drone's drop in resiliance), but the lack of a means to mitigate significantly larger defense pools makes them a crapshoot, lower case accuracy wise, particularly in unfavourable environments.

>>44190326
To be fair, power throw and DV bonuses from martial arts are very easy to houserule in. A minor cross-edition sentance adjustment can be just as easily reversed. Not that that's an excuse, but it's not like any RPG system ever gets to the end of a campaign without substantial changes.

>>44190211

It doesn't feel 80s-esque or like bad sci-fi if you don't run it that way.

It was an issue in 4th. The player would be all the way across the city, while the team was off at some compound. Also, noise is a good thing imo, especially since it's easily overcome.

No narrow bursts are a good thing. Defense pools against guns being doubled? How has that changed from 4e? In both editions, you roll your body+armor for soak. There are more options for armor piercing in 5e than 4e. Drones were already fragile, single shot weapons aren't supposed to be as viable as guns actually dedicated to modern combat, and the upcosting of ware. . . eh, I wish they hadn't, since it just makes adepts even more viable than they already are, so you're right on that score.

I'm not understanding your complaints here. They aren't really difference between 4e/5e, and they're easy fixes by the GM if they really bother you.

>>44190399
What the hell defense pools are you throwing in there to make full-auto completely necessary? It's still a contest between attack dice and dodge dice, which as dicepools shouldn't be that fucking far from one another.

>>44190353
>dodge penalties
Spraying might be hyperbole, but the idea of wide bursts was effectively reducing the possibility of evasion by way of an unfocused stream of bullets. In the manner of area suppressive fire. Presumeably, narrow bursts represented a dedicated attempt to make use of your FA capability to put as many rounds as possible into centre mass. I mean, 'wide' doesn't exactly suggest anything other than a 'wide' spread of bullets, surely? Plus its consistent with the whole matrix style 'sammies dodging about and copious amounts of lead filling the air' aesthetic.

Hence why I said lower case accuracy. Not the stat, the de facto chance to hit.

>>44190399
Seriously, in what games do you play, that your runners regularly encounter enemies with 20+ dice defense pools, beyond the occasional opposing "dodge build" prime runner that has to be dealt with differently?

Jesus, a Warhawk with a smartgun system has an accuracy of 7, which is more than enough never to be a problem since few runners will have an attack dicepool of over twenty dice, and you can increase it even further with other mods if necessary. And even in the hand of a support character, it's murderous enough to deal with mooks and threaten decent opponents once loaded with APDS.

>>44190399
true I guess, but the max I can do in 5e is 20p unarmed while still being a functional character, while i can hit 23 easy in 4e.

Also I prefer dodge as a skill instead of a combo of shit, makes it easier for me to get decent. but I do always forget to put points in it, and in perception because i'm a dickhead.


I also had a group who argued that in 5E full stun didn't knock you out like in all the past versions, because it didn't explicitly state it in the book, kmt.

I just have my best memories and moments of 4e so i'll prefer it, no matter how much better 5e may or may not be.

>>44190475
>that your runners regularly encounter enemies with 20+ dice defense pools
Oh look at you with the benevolent GM that doesn't throw you to the wolves. Come to grind us lowly cretins into the dirt?

>>44190504
So , you only run against prime runners, all the time?

>>44190537
>Implying you can't break 20+ dice without being prime runner

Nah, but we'd get some impressive fucking enemies with leaders that normally had near that high dice pool for defense or over it.

>>44190424
>if you don't run it
To a degree. But the mechanical structure of 5th ed certainly reeks of it.
>would be all the way across the city
Except for DMZs, cold storage files, isolated systems, powerful gatekeeper hosts, the need for the hacker to do things other than pass out at a terminal, etc.
>Drones
Weren't THAT fragile
>AP options
Not really. Ammo, some called shots, but armour values tend to be higher as well.
>good thing
Except if there's some big nasty opponent, it's entirely reasonable to have your fully automatic weapon do more damage than the same gun fired with single shots. That isn't presently represented at all except as to hit chance.
>changes
Defense pools, not soak pools.
>aren't supposed
Except there's any numbers of pistol users, snipers, single shot types, as part of the genre. I'm not saying there shouldn't be downsides, but at this stage there's little BUT downsides, particularly in the average run environment.

>>44190428
The fact that they're pretty close is significant, though. They used to be a lot further apart. FA isn't 'completely necessary', but it's certainly more of a crapshoot without wide bursts than it used to be.

>>44190386
>rather than kill everything forever
Is not a particularly apt description of Pink Mohawk, though. Lupin the Third certainly had a mile wide streak of madcap, pink mohawk style antics, but the characters were certainly not brainless in their methods. For a given value of brainless, anyway.

>>44180588
How much does your character believe in their cause? How paranoid is your character? If you don't particularly care about them and/or you are afraid of getting black bagged you should just pay back the favour as discretely as possible and then just fuck off forever. But if you want to be a badass cyberterrorist then you should definitely join up with them

>>44190504
>20 vs 23
You're still kinda gibbing guys either way, though, at least for non trollbricks. Or punching through doors, for that matter.
>dodge as a skill
More or less gynmastics.

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>>44190326

Yeah, combat is pretty much unchanged. You still roll attack dice, the enemy rolls dodge, and soaks with body+armor.

More hardcore tables may force you to utilize all the combat mechanics at your disposal, but believe it or not, most tables aren't interested in squeezing every last die they can from the system. Some players/GMs are actually satisfied with just attacking and defending.

The nerve, right?

>>44190562
The leader, yes, with some heavy magic/cybernetics. Not the whole group.

Do you take your runners for a ride each session, never staying in a specific place and doing shit on the run, or do you give them a hub where they can install themselves and plan things while going to places they already know before going to actual runs, all while staying hidden and comfy?

>>44190244
You should do it, omae

>>44190564

I'll give you that.

Also this.

Sure, but CGL intentionally gimped riggers this time around to make more money, so blame them.

How is this different from 4e? We have Bullseye Bursts now. -10 AP or more. Unless your GM is regularly throwing beefsticks with 30 to 40 armor or more at you, that much AP should be more than enough.

Hit chance is damage. Don't think of the roll to hit as just hitting them, think of it in terms of damage output as well. This is because of net hits adding to DV.

Defense pools can be higher, but it certainly wasn't impossible to have a dodge pool of 20+ in 4e. 5e ain't much different.

What do you mean little but downsides? A pistol should not be as effective an an assault rifle. There are sniper rifles and shotguns capable of burst fire. To hell with the genre, a better gun is a better gun.

>>44190244

You should definitely do this. I'd read it.

>>44190614
yeah still gibbing, but it hurts my pride a little not beign able to do it.
I don't game with these characters I just like to make them

>>44190630
Oh your travel abroad is pretty much unchanged, just now instead of a plane we're putting you on a dinghy with holes in it.
i don't play with minmaxed, I go in to roleplay and have fun with the adventure and socialise, but I dislike called shots because less cool shit. "oh you want to hit anywhere but the chest? -8 to your roll". Only expressing preferences and explaining differences, no need to be a snarky cunt about it.
End of the day, at least I don't upload still images as gifs you wasteman.

>>44190654
You'd think that until you fought impossible to hit ninja bosses or impossible to damage juggernaut bosses, my GM's man.

>>44190244
we'd all read it mate, do it.

>>44190780
Yes, but those are bosses, opponents you are supposed to use your brains against.

We were speaking about the viability of SS weapons in 5e, and they are perfectly viable in the majority of cases. Once more, you're not going to reun against groups of hyper-optimized prime runners all the goddamn time.

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>>44190428
Dunno if this is the right answer but;
the Accuracy limits on 5e guns are often quite low for (most assault rifles have 5 or 6). You can increase that with a Smartgun (+2), etc, but you probably won't get more than a total of +3 to accuracy. At least not without using actions to aim, sustained spells, etc
Defense pools, on the other hand, arn't effected by Limits (normally). Even if you use full defense, limits don't apply unless you have a quality that changes the standard Full Defense attribute (Willpower) to a Skill. Once you factor in the various bonuses to defence you can get (Reaction & Intuition boosters, Combat Sense, various augmentations, etc), its not all that difficult to get a REALLY big defense pool against ranged attacks. So unless your enemy is using a very accurate FA weapon, you can easily roll enough hits to get close to (or hit) his accuracy limit, making it difficult for him to hit you unless he rolls well or (if you hit his limit) without spending some Edge

The only ways around this are to increase your own accuracy (Aim actions and more accurate guns, which are generally not FA), or to reduce his Defense pool. Which is where FA actions come in; a -9 penalty to defense is (statistically) -3 hits. Plus, even if you can hit him without the defense penalty, the more net hits you score, the closer you get to the maximum DV of your gun (Limit + base DV)

There's also an optional rule in Run & Gun that increases your DV if you reduce his defense pool below zero

>>44190836
Speaking as a revolver and sniper user, not really.
Monsters, magical shit, don't need to be a prime runner to avoid single shot bullets.

>>44190837
Personalized Grip gives you another point, which brings even the shittiest firearm to 7 accuracy.

>>44190733
I wasn't concerned with AP so much as damage.
>hit chance
Abstractly, sure, but at a far worse exchange rate, particularly when you consider smaller bursts. A full burst is a lot of ammo, but is only adding 3 damage, on average. Of course a miss does absolutely nothing, which is part of the issue.
>dodge pool
No, particularly with good gymnastics ratings and full defense, but pools are significantly larger. Depending on stats and ware, doubled isn't out of the question for a lot of targets. Obviously runners tend to be the sorts of characters that can brute force those sorts of pools, but it's still an inelegant solution.
>pistol as effective, genre
And yet they were concerned enough about melee to add another stat onto range defense, and reduce ranged attacks to the same action type as melee. Which almost perfectly stacks up with the horde of people complaining about their samurai not being able to charge gunlines successfully without any ranged weapons. They appeared to be concerned about certain stylistic factors there, at least. The balance was fairly holistic in 4th. You didn't have bursts, but you tended to have a pretty sweet damage value anyway, particularly considering called shots segued nicely into your fighting style, and they were quite potent for the dice:damage ratio. And damage values on the whole were lower.

>>44190893
Shittiest firearm has 3 accuracy base, so Smart gun + Personalized grip is 6 base. An extended barrel (from Hard Targets, has some stupid name tho) adds an extra +1

Also, forgot to mention in >>44190837 but FA is also very useful for characters WITHOUT massive dice pools. Like the poor decker who gets caught in the firefight, or the mage who's spells are shit because the GM read up on background counts. For those characters, a high-accuracy weapon isn't much good because they don't have the attack pools to score a lot of hits. But a full auto weapon (with a bit of RC) can reduce the enemies defense pool enough that you can at least clip him

>>44190869
Sounds more like a dicepool problem than a weapon problem, considering you can mod a revolver (or a sniper rifle, for the matter) to get up to +4 accuracy.

>>44190244
Give me the link to this shit, I like getting a laugh from /clg/ attempts at fashion

What sources should I check out for information on dragons? It seems like there's a lot of it out there, but it's scattered to the fucking wind.

>>44191312

Dragons of the Sixth World, Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets, The Clutch of Dragons, Survival of the Fittest. Those are the ones I know, I guess they're kind of dated.

>>44191312
Read any conspiracy theorist journal/book. add dragons instead of the given target in the book and you are good to go.

Other refer to>>44191354

>>44189687
I have two friends who flip coins for character gender. I instead only play guy PCs, though as a GM of two games I have to pretend to be a grill pretty commonly. Everyone just plays what they play, you know?

>>44191354
Dated sources are an epidemic when it comes to dragons. I only recently found out that Loffie isn't loremaster anymore.

>>44191366

Alternatively, replace the roman/greek pantheon or pantheistic gods in general with dragons. Lofwyr = Jupiter, Hestaby = Terra, Schwartzkopf = Apollo, etc. and I'm not just saying this because I'm a dragon shaman

>>44191471
Heretic

So my group is about to do a hit to steal some gear from Lonestar.
Mostly the clothing, none of the shit that would get them killed in seconds so I'm wondering is there a list on what gear Lonestar operatives use?

>>44191535
Batons that home in on people unrelated to cases, sunglasses that detect innocence and gloves that leave no marks on beaten homeless people.

>>44191529

But they are all mere aspects of the Great Dragon Spirit! I have reconciled the faith to the hard problems, don't you see???

>>44191402

Been a long time since I was up-to-date on the metaplot, but I'm pretty sure that Lofwyr no longer being the Loremaster was part of a retarded late-4E metaplot thing that basically equated it to being Dragon President, because the writers hadn't actually read anything pre-4E.

Speaking of dragons are there any major ones in England that would be one to interact with runners and be undercover as a corporate drone/representative?

>>44191627

Perianwyr maybe? I don't trust my memory but he should be in Wales as of late.

>>44189432
11 dice. While taking on security with 4 dice, he failed twice in two separate events, and got spotted, almost ruining the runs.

>>44189440
So far he has only sat outside in the van and hacked, so that hasn't come up.

>>44191657
Chummers, I need a quick crash course into cyberdecking. I just made a cyberdecker who's only good at anything remotely hacking and using a pistol and I have a game in an hour or so.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/sbhab437rxw527g/Rules_Summary_-_Matrix.pdf
I have this as a reference, but i still can't grasp it

>>44191867
>So far he has only sat outside in the van and hacked, so that hasn't come up.

In that case, it's unsurprising he's getting utterly annihilated even by an average Host.

Have him accompany the party instead. When whatever he needs to hack only has (2*Device Rating) rather than (2*Host Rating) to defend against his hacking, things will get a lot easier.

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>setting where there's magic involved and technology has reached the extent of being able to rewrite memories or create specific and realistic scenarios
>cancer is still a thing

why is this a thing? is this some kind of chris rock megacorp greed logic? because that's actually a pretty good explanation

Do you let your players go as metavariants/ do you play metavariants instead of vanilla metas? Are there any particular variants that are way more powerful than logic dictates?

>>44191867
>11 dice
>he has only sat outside in the van
There's your problem. Your hacker is bad at hacking but thinks he's not bad.

>>44191974
>Do you let your players go as metavariants/ do you play metavariants instead of vanilla metas?
No.

>Are there any particular variants that are way more powerful than logic dictates?
Yes.

>>44191617
That was my understanding of how it worked. I mean, there has to be a king worm, otherwise shit would just be constantly hitting the fan even worse than it already is, right? Or at the very least some kind of shadow council where a few dragons get together and talk about how they're going to fuck over metahumanity in the most effective way with the amount of time they have left until magic shits the bed again.

>>44191964
Actually you can get a fairly expensive genetic test and get cancer causing genetic code removed. Can't help you if you have aready developed a cancerous growth or if you get unlucky and get irradiated though.

>>44192019
Elaborate

>>44192038

Dryads could be crazy effective diplomancers. And pixies had certain issues if the GM didn't clamp down on the little fuckers using regular sized guns.

>>44191964
You can get treated for cancer, either by having your genetics altered or getting advanced technomagic surgery using nanites.

It's just unavailable to regular people, because A) it's expensive, and B) it's expensive because you can't have poor people living forever, a couple hundred years from now they'll realise they can't actually get ahead no matter how hard they work.

>>44191974
No gnomes. No dryads.

>>44192038
SURGE III and some metavariants (Nocturna, Pixie, Nartaki, Dryads) are a min-maxer's paradise.

The easiest way to avoid all stupidity is to only allow the non-metagenetic qualities/lifestyles from Run Faster; or just ignore the book altogether.

>>44192081
Pixies are not metahumans though.

>>44192131
Pixies, Nagas, Centaurs and Sasquatch are considered metahuman choices as far as the rules are concerned.

>>44192108
>>44191974
Oh, and no nocturnas.

>>44191974
things like say fomorians are fine by me because they're basically pretty orcs with some magical abilities

>>44192108
what's wrong with gnomes?

>>44186545
Not that guy but you sure haven't played it if you think it's only 5 hours long or that there are only two "hotspots" per map. Also the difference between gameplay and story/dialogue complexity is lost on you, too. Not surprising I guess, considering the implication of your level of intelligence from your posts.

>>44192151
Those are metasapient creatures as far as the rules are concerned.

>>44192108
>>44192121

Honestly, Dryads are pretty fine as long as you remember that Glamour comes with disadvantages.

You'll never be a good social infiltrator if you are that memorable. It's good for negotiations/unsubtle social but pretty bad for social.

>>44192153
pretty trolls*
whoops

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>>44192024
What you're talking about is the position of Loremaster.

It's not a king, so much as it is an adjudicator. They are responsible for making sure that dragons respect tradition, using the Jewel of Memory as their textbook for what exactly that tradition is.

They have some legal powers (for instance, Celedyr when he was Loremaster set an end date for the dragon civil war, beyond which all grievances were considered settled) but they aren't empowered in the way that a king is. Mostly, the major role of the Loremaster is to settle the division of dragon hoards when a dragon dies, so that they are shared in an equitable manner that maintains the balance of power among the other dragons.

Traditionally the title was passed down through whoever won the Jewel in a special rite from the previous Loremaster, but since Dunks gave it away in his will to Lofwyr things have gone off the rails a bit.

>>44192181
No, you cannot play as one! Get out!

>>44192153
>what's wrong with gnomes?
What's right with gnomes?

>>44191974
>>44192262
for things that look highly unusual i have my own "remote player rule" that makes them automatically a decker that can operate from afar or things that can craft or negotiate other shit via non face-to-face means

>>44192018
He's got 6 Logic, 5 Cybercombat though. That's only one away from starting max.
Is it really that much of a deal?

>>44192221
That >>44191974 guy asked about metavariants. Pixies are not a metavariant. They are not even metahuman.

>>44192313
Generally the goal is to get equipment, ware, and other modifers that boost your dicepool. 15 is considered the low end for your primary skill, and depending on how the GM structures things it could be much higher.

>>44192313
>5 cyber combat
Yeah it is that much of a deal

>>44192313
Yes.

Cerebral Booster and specialization in the main "mark-gathering" actions are a thing, as is the Codeslinger quality.

Second, have him run an Agent on his deck that does Teamwork tests with him whenever he attemps to do something. A rating 4 Agent (the best one you can get at chargen) has a dicepool of 8 on most Matrix actions; enough to give him a 2-3 dice bonus and + 1 on his limit on average.

>>44192285
Do you really want a Log 6(8) Wil 7 Int 5(6) decker that can hide in a large bag or a smuggling compartment in your game?

>>44192313
Hack on the fly is Hacking, not Cybercombat. You are probably making him roll the wrong skill.

>>44192354
Goddamn. I'll have to look into that.
>>44192359
Up to six then, which would bring us to 12.
>>44192378
Cerebral Booster and specializations.
He does actually have an Agent, but he hasn't used it so far. So for teamwork actions, you roll for the Agent's dice at doing the test, and if he gets a success he boosts his dice pool by successes?

>>44192468
My bad, he was using Hacking, which he has at 5. He actually has Cybercombat at 6.

>>44192508
Can you pastebin his build and post it? Or post a .pdf or whatever you use.

>>44192485
Basically, yes. You add the amount of hits from the "helper's" test as a positive dicepool modifier to the "leader's" dicepool, with 2 limitations:
- The leader's limit only gets up by one per helper, independent on how many hits are scored on his roll.
- The leader can only get a maximum amount of extra dice equal to his skill rating, independent of how many helpers there are.

>>44192537
I'll get that up. Looking at his character sheet, this is...this is really bad.

>>44190564
"Crapshoot" implies you've only got one chance to make the shot. The biggest difference brought about by the higher dodge numbers is that a firefight will include more misses and longer shootouts. Which is in part a response to the fact that even unskilled shooters all around would be taking part in battles that lasted three seconds from start to finish.

>>44192615
How new is your decker to shadowrun? Maybe you should give him a small intro hacking task? See how he's doing and let him rebuild his skills and stuff if he would like to.

>>44192018
eleven dice isn't bad, anon, calm the fuck down

>>44192537
Here's the Chummer file
http://www.mediafire.com/view/o96cr0s8oejaity/Coolguy.chum5

That's most of his stuff.
Already, I'm seeing he's not counting his Codeslinger bonus. He has a shotgun(?) he has no skill in, a cyberarm that doesn't do much.
That file is missing most of his small gear, but he does have an agent (that he hasn't used). For programs, the only one I know he has is Hammer.

>>44192313
>starting max
Only without augs. For a well-built decker, see >>44186220

>>44192770
Indeed, it's not bad, it's terrible. Especially at decking from afar and taking on Hosts, which is a task requiring some pretty torough min-maxing.

>>44192765
The intro I did for him had him trying to hack music from some dude's shitty commlink, but he failed that (against 4 dice). He does have pretty bad luck with things.

>>44192880
I'm pretty sure you don't know how the hacking system works. You're not supposed to be breaking right through Host ratings based on sheer dice, anon, that'd be a really boring way to hack. This isn't 4e.

>>44192924
That's pretty much the only way you can do it without getting direct connection to a slaved device.

>>44192949
No, it's not. Read the damned book.

>>44192924
And I'm pretty sure you lack even the most basic reading comprehension, since you do nothing but repeating my whole point.

>>44192984
Unless you were being more ironic than I thought, wasn't your point that the system supposedly requires you to min-max? Because if that's the case, all I'm saying is that you're assuming too direct an avenue of attack. It's like saying a street sam is shitty because he can't arm wrestle a Juggernaut.

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>>44192808
Seriously?
Specialized in Hack on the Fly through Codeslinger but not maxing Hacking?
Such an expensive deck without the dicepools to take advantage of it, and leaving him barely any money for gear.
No cerebral Booster to boost almost all of his matrix actions?
Bone lacing, but Auctioneer Business clothes, for 10 total armor?

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>>44193054
>treating cerebral boosters like a chargen tax
the minmax is real

>>44193102
>minmax
There's a difference between minmax and optimization.

>>44193102
That's not min-maxing, buddy, that's just being efficient at your job as decker. The same like taking some init and agility booster if you want to play a combat-oriented character.

Now if you prefer to go the Nepheretic Screen + drugs way, sure, be my guest. But the eventual result is the same.

>>44193182
>it's not min-maxing, it's just being efficient!
The battle cry of the min-maxer, heard across the ages. The rules don't actually require you to cram as many dicepool bonuses together as you can mathematically accomplish.

>>44193237
>He has fun differently, kill him!

>>44193271
I don't care if people min-max, but I'm going to call you out if you tell everybody they have to. At the end of the day it's numbers wank.

>>44193237
Sure thing, buddy, sure thing! If you think a dicepool of 15 is min-maxed, stay mad and stay useless.

>>44193102
I would call him a minmaxer, but you gotta understand.
This guy is failing like
EVERY
roll.
He needs it to counteract his awful luck.
Dude got a Mark put on his 345k deck by a 700 nuyen Commlink.

>>44193315
>"saying you need a minimum of 15 dice is for min-maxers"
>"15 dice isn't minmaxed!!!"
This is Donald Trump-tier rhetoric.

>>44193237
Shadowrun is, at its heart, a system where unoptimized characters cannot survive long enough to be useful. You're playing people that are at the top 1% of what they do out of their metatype. Simply put, the flavour encourages optimization, and the sytem does as well.

>>44193318
Considering true min-maxing net's you a dice-pool of 22+ depending on how good (or bad) your agent's teamwork's test turns out? Yeah. 15 dice is pretty average.

Seriously, shut the fuck up, you have no idea of what you're speaking about.

>>44193379
Unless you're playing a street level scum game but that's not the default by any stretch.

>>44193379
None of that is true. Unoptimized characters only die if you play them without any manner of lateral thinking. And the actual competence of your group of shadowrunners depends on the tone of the game you're playing and the GM (Not to mention, you know, 12 dice by fluff still makes you pretty fucking competent). And if the system encouraged min-maxing, it might make sense that it'd be able to HANDLE min-maxing, which it blatantly cannot, and never could.

>>44193410
>"I can minmax so much harder, therefore you can't play with below 15 dice"
You're making a ton of sense.

>>44193453
>You're making a ton of sense.

So are you. Anyhting pertinent to say instead of whiny bullshit, "stop liking what I don't like!" and ad hominems?

All I can say is this:

The group decker, the only matrix savvy character, has 12 dice, this being the absolute best dice pool of anyone else.
I don't hand out more than 3 karma or so per run, less if it's wetwork, but I'm more generous with money.
They are exactly where I want them to be, which is to say able to do damage on a lucky hit, but overall still in trouble even from Rating 1 adversaries.
Just because you *can* get 15 dice from the get go, does not mean you should.
12 Dice is considered competent. 15 would be something like an expert.
But yeah. Things have been going pretty great.
We have:
1 Sammy with an Assault Rifle, 1 Decker, 1 Hermetic Mage, 1 Shaman and we used to have a Rigger/Face, who commited suicide by stupid.

>>44193544
>Stop liking what I don't like
I've already said I don't have a problem with that dice scale. The only thing I'm even trying to suggest is that you shouldn't act like every character in the game needs to be built to that standard of optimization. Can you at least acknowledge that it's possible to NOT optimize your build past around 15-16 dice and have that be morally okay?

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>>44193301
>Blowing up about character optimization when someone asked for help making their decker less awful.
Show me where the dice pool touched you, anon.

>>44193453
unoptimized characters die if they stumble onto a guard and fudge a roll, even if you play them smart.

Shadowrun is a lethal setting and I personally wouldn't want my players to burn edge everytime they are stumbled upon by Steve Doughnut-In-Mouth, just because he decided to switch his route to take a leak.

>>44193644
Well it's hard to have a level discussion when you immediately go on the defensive justifying how much you NEED all the dice in the game.

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>>44193665

That is absolutely wrong.
The stats on the right are cops. Professional Rating 3, which is greater than corporate security.
The stats on the left are Mafia, Professional Rating 4, only special teams like the Red Samurai (Rating 5) or Tir Ghosts (Rating 6) are better.

Rating 5 dudes have, for example, 14 dice in Automatics.

Your average CorpSec has about 8 dice to roll and are usually equipped with light pistols or SMGs.

>>44193570
Look, I'll be blunt: Your decker here >>44192808? He's a liability.

- He's so-so at Decking.
- He's terrible in combat: his automatics dicepool is decent enough combined to a good burst, but 3 rea + 1 INT for a defense pool of 4 dice? 1D6 +4 init? 10 armor? he's going to get ventilated by anything pointing a Warhawk, Predator or Shotgun at him before he even has a chance to do anything, even his will to Live 3 won't change much.
- Defaulting on Etiquette with a CHA of 3 and Social Stress? That means that poor guy cannot even answer a polite "Excuse me sir, but what are you doing here?" without sperging out or worse.

He really need some serious reworking, starting with answering the question: what does the character wants to do?

>>44193692
I understand why minmaxers can be frustrating.
But as the DM of the game with the decker, his character needs some help. From a roleplay point, the party is having trouble giving reason for bringing him along, as he could endanger the party. And from his point of view, he's coming to the game, and being utterly dissapointed every session because he's failing against Meta-Link commlinks.

Try not to think of this as min-maxing, try to think of it as countering the dude with the shittiest luck in the world.

>>44193806
I was using hyperbole.

If you want to run a street-level game that's your prerogative, just saying that covert deniable assets should be good enough at their job to overcome some gangers or rent-a-cops.

>>44193977
Well we've already figured out the guy was completely forgetting two dice, and the luck should average out.

>>44194029
No he isn't. He has a base dicepool of 9 on Hacking, + 2 from codeslinger, for a correct total of 11.

>>44193894

That's not my decker, or my group. I'm the GM.

Also: Composure is what keeps your cool in those situations. Etiquette lets them persuade people they belong somewhere.

Anyway, that dude has 5 Group Skills he hasn't used, which can all go into Influence.
He should just lower con to 2 ranks for a pool of 5, dunno why he'd want it, but there you go.
The rest of the 3 remaining Active skills (he has an unused one) should go to hacking.
Hell, I'd take Automatics off completely and max out the decking stats and raise Pistols to 4.
Next, he should spend some of that leftover karma to raise sneaking and palming to 3, for a total of 8.

He's still all over the place, but if he wants some small ability to infiltrate somewhere, he has it.

>>44194044
Oh, I was under the impression he had a 5 in Hacking, since there was a conversation about that earlier. Yeah, there's not much reason to keep Hacking that low, considering it's your character's job and below a 4 is written up as hobbyist or amateur.

>>44193995

Nah, man, my point was that a dice pool of 15 is what Red Samurai have.
Your runners are supposed to fear the Red Samurai.

>>44192887
Tone
down

>>44194123
Red Samurai (and we're speaking generic rating 5 Red Sams, not ones built as prime runners), have a dicepool of 18 on their main "shtick" of shooting guns in the core rulebook.

>>44194123
Sure, they should fear any HTR teams. But HTR Teams out of raw suck. I mean, the whole Grunts thing is ridiculous, they are unrealistically underpowered.
You think a Lonestar Veteran wouldn't shell out measly 500 Nuyen for a FFFBS?
When his life depends on it?
When he has 5+ years in the force and surely had a few bullets coming his way? Come on.

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>>44194072
The character hasn't finished chargen yet but has gone on runs? Pry wanna get that taken care of before anything else. Good opportunity to make him buy a cheaper deck and get some augs for his mental stats.

That aside, I would ditch pistols instead of automatics. His firearms skills are going to be pretty rubbish, which the automatics will make up for by giving him access to full auto and suppression. Buy him a TMP and put gas vent on it. It's about as concealable as a pistol and will let him spray targets down with lead.

>>44194123
They don't need to have worse pools than the Red Samurai to fear them. They're a credible threat with 15 dice in shooting, and even getting moderately unlucky can mean catching a bullet.

>>44194176
It's a problem with bonus-based dice systems that you can always argue that you should "realistically" have every bonus in the book. Frankly, it's all abstraction, and you can give in-universe reasons why they wouldn't be super optimal, which wouldn't work out in the game math. But that's the difference between styles of play-- You're either justifying things because they give a bonus, and therefore you should have them, or you're aiming for a specific range of competence because the game works smoother that way.

>>44194183
He's finished char gen, the rest of his money and karma was spent on his programs, an agent, and a mish-mash of random gear along with a chopper. I think he later added a cyberpistol to his cyberarm as well.

>>44194277
What did you mean by:

>Anyway, that dude has 5 Group Skills he hasn't used, which can all go into Influence.

Sounded like he hasn't spent his chargen skill groups yet.

>>44194183

I think he wants to actually go and physically infiltrate places before/while the team does their thing elsewhere.
I'm guessing he uses pistols so he can have a small dartgun (with drugs in it) to knock out one person or two, at most.

>>44194172
Actually, it's Firearms Group 7, with Agility 9, for 16.
The Lieutenant has 17.

>>44194176

LoneStar count as Rating 3 cops. CorpSec is supposed to be the generic dudes that guard buildings which aren't research labs or places of importance. Mall Cops, basically.
Actual officers have protocol and standard gear they kind of have to use. You can lose your job if you have something you weren't issued that your superior hasn't greenlit.
Nah man, runners supposed to be better than cops and made men, but still under HTR and Special Forces.
The designers are simply terrible at design.

>>44194340
And add 2 from the smartlink, and you get a dicepool of 18.

>>44194246
That's true. Guess it's hard to strike a balance between omitting things that make sense and equipping everyone in what amounts to Milspec.

It's just my experience that most players try to err on the side of equipping stuff.
They either want to be good at what they are doing or had some traumatic experiences with GameMurderers.

It comes down to preference, I suppose

>>44192808
>http://www.mediafire.com/view/o96cr0s8oejaity/Coolguy.chum5
Skill groups where?
Int 1 why? You should have say "no".

Overrall: You need to create a character anew because the current one doesn't follow the rules (and common sense). You need to tell your guy about the cyberlimbs.
You should literally hold his hand with character generation. Explain him what the limits are. Explain that the deck stats ARE the limits.

>>44194340
Why wouldn't a superior greenlight something that keeps his veteran officers alive?

>muh corp ??

>>44194378
Yeah, and it's so divisive because really, you can't argue it's not ICly justified, if the characters know these things work. But I prefer building characters to a lower standard because it gives me more chances to make fluff purchases, and I prefer GMing to a lower standard of optimization because the game's an unholy pain in the ass to balance at the upper level, and ridiculously easy to balance otherwise.

>>44194340
They built the 4e mooks to the fluff standards they'd set when they made 4e, and everybody complained for a decade that they were too weak to play against the types of characters players built. I guess they just felt like giving them more dicepool padding this time around.

>>44194432
Because the characters don't know they're in a game, so they don't know it's the optimized gear choice.

>>44194340
>a small dartgun
That'll take an Exotic Ranged Weapon (Dart Pistol). Bottom of p 429 and p 430 in the core book.

It's a really bad investment, esp. since that decker won't be very good at infiltration in the first place.

>>44194445
Straight out of the book mooks are still pretty weak in 5e.

>>44194430
That is the plan for next session. Thanks for the help.

>>44193345
>>15 dice isn minmaxed!!!
That is literally nothing.
Agility 5 + pistols 5 + revolvers specialisation + smartlink = 14. No ware except an inplanted smatlink, no maxed stats, no maxed skills. Step up.

>>44194489
>point out a strawman argument, to make the point that I wasn't saying 15 dice is minmaxed
>somebody swoops in later and argues that 15 dice isn't minmaxed
bro

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>>44194432
Same reason corporate security is full of holes:
Running your department under budget gets you promoted.

>>44194483
No problem. Just talk about how he sees their character and help him with actual crunch.

>>44194462
Yes and no. That would fly for a particular piece of gear instead of another, but even regular cops get issued bulletproof vests if they're a whiff of a risk shit could happen.

Seriously, the cost of getting a modicum of gear on the average loser's back is nothing compared to what it costs to train him (and heal him should he survive.)

>>44194482
Well, again the devs underestimated just how many dicepool bonuses they'd thrown in their system.

>>44194432

I was going to say >>44194519
but there's also a high likelyhood that all their gear is from a specific deal the corp makes with their suppliers for exclusive use.
The pepsi people don't like it when you drink Cola, and they very much hated it if you happen to work for them. I used to be a sales agent and bought a water that wasn't Pepsi owned. My boss saw it in my car and gave me shit about it, then said I'd get fired if I didn't watch myself.

>>44194555
Well it's not like the cops are going out there unarmored.

>>44194515
I am drunk and I speak English, like, twice a year.
So I don't know what are you trying to say.
>>15 dice isn minmaxed!!!
was meant to be
>15 dice is minmaxed!
Sorry.
But 15 dice is not minmaxed. Don't get me started on minmaxing.

>>44194613
What accent should I be reading this in?

>>44194718
Serbian. Or Russian, those come really close when we're speaking anglo.

>>44194555
>>44194582

In my example the guy bought it on his own money, because he was shot at (maybe by a larger caliber) and thought to himself:
"Sheesh, maybe my flimsy armored coat bought from the cheapest bidder isnt going to stop that."
He then went out and bought an FFFBS - probably using CorpScript - therefore ensuring brand loyalty.

And I'm not saying he instinctively knows that one piece of gear is superior to the other.
But everybody knows that a type II vest performs better than a type I vest.

It's just weird to me that every cop the runners run into isn't capable of basic logic concerning his survival

>>44194432
You've never been in the military

>>44195080

Well, if you *really* want to get into it, let's ask the following question:
Why don't the cops wear better bullet proof vests?
The real ones, I mean?
Couldn't a veteran cop just save up money and buy himself a military issue body armor?

In the meantime, the Form Fitting Body Suit is actually shittier than the Armor Jacket.
Also: Full Body Armor, Availability 14R costs 2000 nuyen.
Form Fitting costs 1300.
That shit ain't cheap. When's the last time you bought something that's worth roughly half your paycheck?
Nobody's saying he can't, but cops have a uniform and a standard outfit.
In his off time, the cop could be rocking Jazz and MilSpec, but on the clock, he's got to look and act like the corp tells him to.

>>44194582
>I used to be a sales agent and bought a water that wasn't Pepsi owned. My boss saw it in my car and gave me shit about it, then said I'd get fired if I didn't watch myself.
>a WATER

these cunts need to fuck off

>>44195225
The real ones don't wear better armor because the threat level isn't the same.
We're talking about a setting where you can't drive interstates at night because drugged up people on motorbikes would shoot you.
If there's any reason to believe that there is an armed threat even real cops are going to bust out riot gear/swat gear.

Sure it's shittier than the armor jacket, but it's easily concealable (doesn't ruin the uniform) and you can wear it under your armor jacket.

And I recently bought something that's worth half my paycheck - that argument is weird. People buy houses.

>>44195080
Of course some mooks can realize that they are not doing enough to ensure their own survival. A cop can go and buy some specialized gear that will help his survival. He can get a better gun and tinker it with some accessories that will make it perform better. He can get some chrome that most other cops don't have. He can take up practicing a few skills, both ones directly related to his job and some auxiliaries like Survival and Hacking group. He can shell out on a better commlink so his new toys don't get hacked easily. He can buy some extra stuff that will help him in a pinch, like combat drugs and a spare gun. And at this point he's done so much that he might even develop a quality or two.

And then you get a prime runner.

>>44195347
That's exactly my problem. Why do sensible choices make somebody special in this game?

Well, I guess it's simply abstracted for simplicity and I'm making a fool out of myself.

>>44195437
You need more than gear to be prime runner tier. What it will do, though, is make you not a grunt.

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>>44195276

Colleague of mine showed up with stubble. He was sent home and told that if he ever showed up again like that, he shouldn't bother showing up.
One other dude was late a few times, like three or so in six months, and they called him (while he was stuck in traffic) and fired him over the phone.
A regional director was fired by his bosses for making sarcastic jokes. The guys on top literally couldn't understand sarcasm. It was amazing to see.
When I was a Merchandiser, it was 116F+ outside and they told us, under no circumstance to show up in shorts, even if it meant heatstroke. They did let us get 2 bottles of water instead of the usual 1.
These things only happened after we were bought by Pepsi Americas.
Big Corps are insane.

>>44195330

Most people spend 5000 nuyen to live a good, vaguely upper middle class life per month, including restaurants, services, expenses, shit like that. 2000 is what a factory worker needs to survive a month.

In the meantime, the streets aren't that dangerous for no reason. They're like that because law enforcement can't or won't stop it.
Also: Why would you wear shittier armor under good armor? It does nothing mechanically,


Finally, the FFBS does not stack with the Lined Jacket, per the rules.

>>44195590
Armor stacking did something in 4e, don't know abouth 5th.

Well, if the streets are dangerous, wouldn't people want to protect themselves? I don't get what you're trying to tell me here.

My problem is that people in the line of fire (like cops, for example) are portrayed as having no agency to protect themselves.

Which makes sense, depending on how you structure you world.
If your idea of "cop" is grabbing a guy from the barrens, shoving a datajack with a law-knowsoft up his skull and giving him a pistol and a lined jacket, then sure.
If your idea of "cop" is one of somebody with capability of actual thought and somebody who wants to return to his family after his shift - well, priorities kinda change.

It's really mixed in the fluff, so idk.

>>44195792
Armor stacking did literally nothing in 4e except in the case of two types of armor, for which nobody ever came up with a way of explaining why they were supposed to be different.

>>44195792

Even in 4th, it was half the armor rating, I believe.
And, again, agency is fine, encouraged. But cops are *cops*. They can't be out of uniform. They can't bring their own guns either. They are the oppressive fascist arm of the Corps, to better subdue people with. Themselves included.
If they're a small security firm, or a bunch of mercs, or even gangers with cash, then yes. But that's reflected by giving them a higher Professional Rating, usually.
Cops in SR aren't generally interested in keeping anything safe. They want everyone to follow the rules. Pretty much like real life cops.

>>44195820
Form Fitting Body Armor had a special rule. As did something else.

>>44178675
Shadow run bosses must be tricky for GMs.
I know this because I killed one with a drone I kept in my finger tip.

>>44195820
Yes. One of which I was referring to, form fitting body armor.

Well, nobody explained why stacking Armor doesn't help, but you seem quite ok with that concept, so what's your point?

Hey /srg/ how can i become the best decker in 5th e?

>>44195909
Why make a rule if you're just going to scribble over it when it comes time for a piece of gimmick gear in the next sourcebook?

>>44195792
It's not as mixed as people make out. The problem lies in taking multiple descriptions of different neighbourhoods, corpsec / beat cops / first responders / HTR / other, and mashing it all into one unintelligibly contradictory garble. Which just means anyone doing so needs to read a fucking book or ten.

>>44195970
Why not direct your anger at people who are deserving of it? I'm not CGL, I don't make the rules.

>>44195976

That may well be the problem, so brb reading 1-10 books now.

>>44196034
Sorry, I'm directing my anger towards them, I just have a bitchy tone of voice sometimes.

God i want to play a decker so bad in 5th e, it's just that i have never played it before.

>>44195908

Bosses are only good if you give them actually competent aides.

>>44195943

Be a Human with lots of Edge.
Cerebral Booster
Codeslinger
Put all your points in the Cracking and Electronics.
Buy a really good deck that can run a lot of programs.

Then just specialize in Computer(Matrix Search)(If your GM isn't shit, this is a very important skill), Cybercombat(Devices), Electronic Warfare (Encryption) has always served me well, Hacking (Hosts) and Software (Data Bombs).

Then just save up karma to increase your skills.

>>44196092
What's the difference between matrix search between a good and bad gm?

>>44196135

A good GM will seriously think about how difficult it is to really keep information secret in a world where everything is wired up and not having internet seems like this absurd nightmare to most people, like not having cities (at all) would seem to us.

But if you're looking for info, Matrix Search is what you want. When you're on datasteal missions, or just want to nab some paydata on the side, this is the skill for it.

If you're looking on Corporate Psychological profiles for your target, buying habits, police routines, rumors, black markets, anything at all, it's going to be a Matrix Search (if you're a decker).

>>44195943
Similarly to this, how do I rigger in 5e?

>>44196779
Decent Reaction, a Control Rig, a vehicle, and a drone or two. That'll get you going. If you want to do proper drone-ops, you'll probably want an RCC, because it gives you some easy ways to save cash and such. Infiltration is a good skill to have as a rigger, you can use it in a drone. Gunnery, of course (and keep in mind remote-control Gunnery is tied to Logic, not Agility). Mechanic skills, paired with a cool GM, can let you be a little more creative.

>>44196779

You wait until the Rigger book comes out, or you ask your GM to let you use the Rigger book from 4e.

Otherwise, you gotta just get a fuckton of drones.
Rigger isn't pointless, but it's a very specialized role that can usually be filled by other people.

>>44196779
You wait for Rigger 5. To mark the release date of sixth edition.

>>44196855
The rigger stuff from 4e would be iffy in translation (at least, where it wasn't iffy to start with-- 4e vehicle armor was hilarious). Honestly you might as well just make shit up and wing it, if you want to mod vehicles.

>>44196916
4e vehicle armour had encumbrance rules somewhere. Almost no one I know ever realised they existed.

>>44197117
They barely helped, either. A school bus with Ork bitz welded on still out-tanks the APC, and it's not even expensive.

>>44197158

W-was it p-painted red?

>>44197770
But green is da best!

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>>44197770
ahem, let me get back into character...
>"WHERE WE'RE GOIN', BOY, THERE AIN'T NO NEED FOR PAINT."

>>44197802
But red makes it go fastah!

>>44197802
RED WUNZ GO FASTER

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>>44197819
>>44197823
Ok, back to >>44167931 with you.

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Hey, what do you guys think of this decker?
I'm new to the game and decided to follow what some people advised around here.