Beast: The Primordial

>>44134662
Literally nobody cares about it, so decide for yourself.

>>44134662
lol are they doing an emo furry game?

Man honestly I'd totally forgotten about the game until I saw it on my Drivethrurpg library a few days ago.

>>44134662
It's... Meh.

The soul room thing is confusing, it focuses on Dreams which have already been well enough explored in most other splat. Also to ingratiate it to everyone, it basically works as the peanut butter to everyone else's jam with their key ability giving bonus dice to any of their "family's" supernatural powers.

The initial cries of Otherkin splat sound bad, but really it's just meh and no worse than people who claim to be vampires and shit.

Strangely it seems to be very 'we should all be friends and cooperate'.

>>44134662

It's the worst nWoD mainline game by an enormous margin. It's right up there with Gypsies in terms of how utterly godawful it is, except probably worse simply by virtue of the fact that Gypsies is 20 years old and no one actually remembers it. Beast is perhaps the most misguided example of OPP's overbearing obsession with identity politics inclusiveness bullshit, managing to be both insulting to the people it was meant to appeal to and atrociously condescending to literally everyone else at the same time.

On a superficial level, Beasts are children of nightmare who sate their hunger by tormenting humanity, creating predatory Heroes that come to slay them as a result. On a subtext level, there's a clear intended link between the Children and LBGT people while the Heroes are supposed to be self-righteous bigots, especially of the white and male variety. The metaphor breaks down because Beast, at the end of the day, is a puerile revenge fantasy, and the allegory ends up calling gay and trans individuals abominable outcasts who want to prey on other people and have to be put down by bigot caricatures that they created by being what they are.

This isn't even touching upon the whole angsty "special people with the souls of mythical creatures picked on and bullied by the normies who just don't understand" otherkin aspect of the splat. Beast is a veritable clusterfuck and hearkens back to the olden days of White Wolf's incredibly clumsy implementation of progressive ideas into their works. I would hope it'd be a wake-up call to them to be more sensible with regard to the issues they're trying to broach and less insane self-righous Tumblr SJW" about them all, but you never know with OPP/WW.

Well, David Hill is certainly too far gone, I think. I have essentially zero hope for CTL 2e.

So it pretty much doesn't stand on it's own and should only really be used as a side character/monster for Hunters to fight?

>>44135174

It doesn't really stand either on its own or together with anything else. It's hugely redundant and adds nothing of value to the other splats in a thematic sense. Hunters have much more interesting enemies they could be fighting.

>>44135244
Well fuck, so much for being a leviathan like monster for fun. Fuckin' hell I just wanted a game about being a unrepentant monster that was never human/the robot child of 'God'

>>44135422

I'm sorry. If it puts into perspective how Beast would not have helped you realize that concept, it bears mentioning that the Children do not actually become the monster they represent in reality to any real extent. You don't get any shapeshifting powers at all and your Atavisms are completely invisible to mortals, even when you're slipping through crevices, ripping someone apart with claws, or breathing fire.

If you want to actually play as a Leviathan-like monster for fun, I would suggest playing Changeling: The Lost instead. The Beast Seeming should fit your desires the best.

>>44135599
Yeah I knew about the whole, "You're only really a monster in spirit" thing from awhile ago, but I was remebering all the cool stuff I thought of when the game was announced and all we had was, "You can be a dragon." But I play a lot of Changeling, holding out hope for CtL 2e. All I need is to get Equinox Road, then I'll have all the books physically.

>>44134662
I have a feeling the game will be fun with a few houserules and simply not using some things. Doesn't take a lot for players to make up their own shit to do.

Huh, reminds me of that old fansplat, Leviathan: the Tempest. Only handled much worse.

>>44136960
Nothing is worse than a fansplat. I'd take playing Changing Breeds or Gypsies over Genius or Princess.

>>44136960
I always wanted to look into that game, but I'm a faggot and can't get into only text for pnp books.

The fuck is nWoD? Do you mean CoD?

>>44137101
Well, this does have more variety in monsters, Leviathan was centred on the water aspect. But no physical transformation? I guess it's made for LARPS.

Why are we having two of these threads now?

>>44135154
God I thought I was alone with seeing the incoming train wreck that is CTL 2e.

>>44137203
I chuckled a little thinking of a Leviathan LARP because some sweaty neckbeard doing an unintentionally good impression of an alien amphibious monster being forced to interact with normal humans

>>44135154
nWoD is kind of hit and miss. I like Demon a lot even though it's...not really more a The Matrix simulator than a horror game. Which is ironic because Beast bashed hard on Demon.

"Oh yeah, we're one big happy family you guys no really, except REMOVE DEMON REMOVE DEMONS AND THEIR STUPID MASKS"

>>44137261
Man I still have SOME hope for it, but fuck the only seeming I like now is Wizened. At least kiths give fairly good powers now.

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>>44135154
The worst part about Beast for me was that it showed how dysfunctional WW/OPP really is. Everybody (and I do mean everybody, it was amazing) was able to see how horrible it was from a fluff or crunch perspective given even a cursory look, but apparently nobody bothered to raise any issues at any point before the Kickstarter was launched. The damage control and incredulous, pig-headed response of some of the devs that anyone could see a problem with it particularly put my back up.

>OK, I'm not going to post in red text, because I'm very much a normal poster in this thread, but as a request - could we tone down the "OMG HEROES ARE FIREMEN WHY DO YOU HATE FIREMEN" stuff a little? Because that's really obviously not what we're going for, and frankly the question of why Heroes are called Heroes has been more than adequately answered.
>(And, I note, once again Heroes smash their way in here and are all like "not all Heroes!" and "what about the Heroes?")

>>44137300
Matt whateverhisnameis was one of the lead devs on Demon as well as Beast, which led me to believe it was a special snowflake thing.

I may be being a little but unfair, but Fuck Beast.

>>44137198
I just saw that update. Fuck why did they decide CoD was a good alternative, jesus christ.

>>44137261
Oh no, see, CTL 2e was doomed the moment David Hill tried to alter the setting beyond what was absolutely necessary, and it was especially doomed the moment his creative control veered it into his particular political agenda. CTL was already a complete work. Fluff wise, it had little room for improvement besides the fact that Equinox Road obsolesced Autumn Nightmares with regards to the Gentry except for a few details, like Charlatans. The people who liked CTL liked CTL for what it was.

The switching of Kiths and Seemings was not a bad idea to begin with, especially since Dual Kith was always such a popular merit, and balancing the Kiths is a welcome change. That said, its implementation has been pretty awful. Any sort of creative breadth it could have granted has been torn away by the fact that the Kiths and Seemings now tied to your method of escape, shoehorning your backstory. 2e's focus on "taking back agency" to the exclusion of the themes that made the original game so compelling has really made 2e not worth my time.

Oh well, the two tables I typically game share these sentiments, more or less, so we've all stuck to the original game, and that'll just have to be good enough.

>>44137342
Yeah, the flavor on the Seemings is really unappealing now. I can't feel any of the twisted, somber fairtytale atmosphere of the original game in anything that's been released for 2e.

>>44137300
>I like Demon a lot

I think most people like nDemon. It is frankly much better at asking the question of identity than Beast is. The people who dislike nDemon do tend to find its cyber-diabolism to be jarring in comparison to the rest of the setting, but even though I myself find more typical demons more appealing, I also think nDemon's aesthetic makes the splat more unique and individual.

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There's going to be a historical setting for Beast set in the reconstructionist, post-American Civil War period. That's got hilarious consequences if you know anything about the time period or Beasts.

Obviously White Wolf isn't going to write them like this, but the fact that KKK and Yankee carpetbagger Beasts make perfect sense says a lot.

>>44137927
>Demon

Pretty much this. It's as lighthearted as the nWoD gets short of playing a literal Archmage-and you don't have to cope with cosmic horror on the scale of the Abyss. Or at least, the devs haven't had a chance to write supplementary books on Angels on the same scale of threat as the living histories and stuff

Sometimes I feel like it'd have been better off released as its' own thing separate from the nWoD called "Agent: The Matrix" or something along with the God-Machine. Another part of me very much enjoys being a super-operator gunning it up with the creatures of the night.

I'll say this though: I never did get the impression playing it my character was an actual demon instead of a robot with identity issues

>>44135154

>On a superficial level, Changelings are victims of abductors who try to live peaceably in our world while hiding their true twisted nature. But they are always at risk for being taken back, or being hunted down by, or rejected by the human community they seek to coexist with. On a subtext level, there's a clear intended link between Changelings and people with mental illness or disabilities. They seek to escape the trauma that caused their disabilities, and the game explores how ableism sweeps them under the rug or stigmatizes them while our government seeks to rob them of agency and legal rights.

See

I'm trying to make a point.

All World of Darkness games portray a group which is otherized or exists outside the norm, one which is usually persecuted and always victimized at some level. If you try hard enough, you can make any of them about SJW bullshit. But it's silly.

>>44138124
>post-American Civil War
>suddenly, vengeful skinwalkers fucking everywhere

>>44137927
>I think most people like nDemon. It is frankly much better at asking the question of identity than Beast is. The people who dislike nDemon do tend to find its cyber-diabolism to be jarring in comparison to the rest of the setting, but even though I myself find more typical demons more appealing, I also think nDemon's aesthetic makes the splat more unique and individual.

Yeah, I'm a bit like that. As its own thing I like Demon (even if it is just a reskinned, more pretentious version of the Matrix), I just don't like the God Machine as a major part of the nWoD universe. If it was just a one-off weird but powerful thing, like... I don't know, the Prince of 100,000 Leaves or something, I think I'd like it a lot more. Then again, I also liked having the other splats as their own little worlds where, for example, the existence of Werewolves doesn't mean that Vampires also exist. I got really inspired by the core book with its hints at major supernatural stuff, but also the idea that there's a lot of weird shit out there that's basically unclassifiable.

>>44138340
Yeah, nWoD's been trying to sell the God-Machine hard for whatever reason what with the GMC as part of the mechanics revamp.

I can't imagine why. I just can't see the GM operating anywhere on the scale as the Exarchs, or the Aeons, or the Ascended Archmages, or the True Fae in their realms, or the Principle, or greater Abyssals like Mr Leaves without getting its' tin ass kicked by people who don't have to even pay physics lip service. I've yet to see anything to convince me it can match of those guys going all out.

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>>44137398
>The worst part about Beast for me was that it showed how dysfunctional WW/OPP really is.

Tell me about it. You've taken the words right out of my mouth. I thought OPP had finally transcended this sort of thing after its initial success with V20 and similar projects, but shortly after switching GMC to a full on 2nd edition, I've been continuously disappointed.

>The damage control and incredulous, pig-headed response of some of the devs

They are trying so hard to push a progressive agenda into their game, but even as a liberal, all it does is come off as pretentious, condescending, even clueless. Pic related. The same goes for Mage20, where on page 258 they essentially call people of different sexualities and races "the Other" and act like they're giving you permission to roleplay them. It's like they don't understand that people already find these things perfectly acceptable. The moment the WoD gets preachy is the moment it has lost its ability to convey any meaningful message at all.

>Matt whateverhisnameis

McFarland's work has always wildly varied in quality. Sometimes he does a great job, sometimes he's contributed to something of little value. It's always hard to tell with WoD books whether individual writers are fucking something up or the concept itself is just bad to begin with, but given his track record and the immense amount of content he's been involved in, it seems to me that at the very least he doesn't usually fuck things up, at least not on his own. That in mind, given his statements, he was heavily involved in Beast and often spouted rhetoric about its themes, and Beast was a hugely misguided and ill-conceived effort to begin with.

>>44137674
pfffhahahahah I just now learned of this myself
oh OPP, what are you doin'
"THIS IS A GOOD CHANGE"
nothing changed
no one is going to call it chronicles of dorkness
that's a stupid fucking name
probably something Paradox encouraged

>>44138147
>I never did get the impression playing it my character was an actual demon instead of a robot with identity issues

Yyyyeeeaaaahhh, that's definitely a thing. Even so, I do think things like the soul-pact go a good way towards rectifying that. At the end of the day, though, nDemons don't really provide an alternative to the sorts of beings, say, the Lucifuge would be concerned over, which are much better acted out by Abyssal Entities, rhe Gentry, or, if you prefer them, the Vice-based demons of Inferno.

>>44138147

Changeling's allegories actually work perfectly fine, though. The problem isn't having a subtext in the first place, the problem arises when the subtext is utterly decoupled from its allegory. Beast's rhetoric just doesn't work, on top of countless other issues it has.

>>44138340
>don't like the God Machine as a major part of the nWoD

Personally, I use the God Machine as an important keystone figure in the cosmology of my games (related to the Principle and the Prodigal Demiurge, in fact), but I do not afford it overwhelming setting primacy. It's a major factor in the World of Darkness trying to maintain status quo for its own reasons, but it's not the end-all-be-all by any means.

>>44138435
>nWoD's been trying to sell the God-Machine hard for whatever reason

I think it's just because it was a cool thing that people liked back in 1e, mostly.

Why are there two threads about Beast, a thread about Promethean, AND the WoD general discussion thread all at once?

Especially when both Beast OPs are asking the same question?

>>44135422
You don't even get to be a leviathan monster in Beast. You're a regular human dude who can manifest individual aspects of a leviathan monster. A "dragon" Beast is just a human that can breathe fire, or grow scales or claws.

>>44137927
>I can't feel any of the twisted, somber fairtytale atmosphere of the original game in anything that's been released for 2e.
David Hill actually went into a rant about how he found the whole "Beautiful Madness" thing personally offensive to people with mental illness and he needed to get rid of it to stop giving a false, romanticized/demonized portrayal of what it's like to be mentally ill.

Because we all totally thought low Clarity was exactly like real-world mental illness.

Which is why he's going overboard on trying to make it "empowering".

>>44138755
It also means that it shares an abbreviation with Call of Duty, which just adds an extra lack of clarity.

And that excerpt is terrible. Right up to "So in essence, it's a bit of setting information tied into the description". It presents non-standard pronouns in a non-judgemental way that even people who haven't ever been exposed to them before can understand and hopefully won't be automatically hostile to, and gives STs a useful reason to include them beyond "because I said so / It's my fetish". It then completely ruins it with the smug and condescending last bit. That doesn't read to me as a helpful bit of advice, that's some holier-than-thou dickhead patting themselves on the back.

Then again, and I know this isn't a nice thing to say and it's probably coming more from bad experiences with some horribe /tg/ players and STs than anything rational, but I can't help but shake the feeling that some of the over-the-top stuff comes from developer fetishes slipping in. Like, yeah dude, trans rights are great and all, but I know for a fact you've got a creepy thing for underage dickgirl rape. I did hear somewhere that Beast did show some of Matt's hangups about the BDSM scene slipping in, particularly in the language, but I don't know how valid that is.

>>44139185
Not everything needs to be a General, its really nice to get a bit of specific, limited discussion going for once. It is a bit weird having two threads with basically the same OP, mind you.

>>44139477
I just found it weird suddenly seeing four WoD threads (two of which started out practically identically, although the other one is discussing the perspective problems in Beast while this one is discussing Changeling 2e and the like), when usually there's only the one.

What's got everyone so curious about Beast today?

>>44139185
OP of this thread. Basically I'm a huge faggot that didn't bother to look to see if it was asked. That's about the only reason there are two threads about Beast.

>>44139587
Coincidences. They happen sometimes. Sometimes Chronic of Dankness isn't talked about at all.

>>44139674
>Chronic Of Darkness
Would smoke/10

>>44138147
then what is Genius or Princess's allegory?

>>44139733
Buttmad Old Mage fans and Weebanitus.

>>44139733
For Genius? Marginalized smart people who can't convey what they love to their peers and loved ones.

Same thing as Mage, basically, but with more bitterness and anger and humiliation, since the backlash when they try fucks the Genius instead of the mortals.

>>44139587
I got curious because I just remebered Beast existed the other day and I haven't had the time/desire to read through the PDF... So I just jumped on /tg/ and asked about it.

>>44139788
>>44139763
oh good I was worried it was meant to be an Autism simulator
I actually am Autistic but don't care for how much people talk about it or think of it as an excuse for shit

>>44139788
Also the fact that they know nothing they make will last, because once they die all their glorious creations will either self-destruct or go berserk. Everything they do will amount to nothing in the end, and even when they were doing it it was just charlatanry.

Meanwhile, Mages get the opportunity to write the Truth of their existence directly into the source code of reality and become a permanent fixture of existence.

>>44139795
I wish more people would do that sometimes. I miss the age before Generals ruled the earth.

>>44139891
We do actually get to have interesting discussions this way instead of Aspel shitting up the entire thread with arguments (especially arguments that continue from thread to thread) or shilling his homebrew.

That and hell, despite both OPs being basically identical they're both discussing different things at this point.

>>44139891
I'm honestly not a fan of Generals, partly because I prefer having a more focused discussion. Plus I don't mind there being more than one thread for the series I like most.

Anyway, I'm probably going to either homerule the FUCK out of Beast into an entirely diffrent game or just abandon it until either it gets 'fixed' with supplments or it gets worse. 'cause despite all the bad parts, the thing that I dislike the most is there being a focus on cross-over, which is (To me) the 'Online multiplayer' focus that I'm not a fan of.

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>>44140119
I'm not sure what you can fix with supplements, to be honest. The Lair stuff is kind of the most interesting bit, but it feels like it could be used for several supernatural groups or their antagonists with only minor changes - Changeling Hollows, Werewolf spirit world dens, Geist crypts / boneyards, fancy pants Mage towers, Demon/Angel hidden realms, weirder minor things from the blue books, all sorts. About the only ones that would take more work to adapt would be Vampire and Promethean, and even then there are ways to do it (like a particularly Nightmarish Nosferatu den, or a Centimanus lair in an out of control Wasteland)

I suppose that's one of the major issues with Beast, it does very little that another splat doesn't already do better and what little it brings to the table would probably be better served with one of the existing lines.

>>44139958
I get exactly what you mean. I'd not read any /tg/ threads on WoD stuff for a few years, and only came back roundabout the same time as Beast. You cannot imagine how dissappointed I was to see Aspel/Edward /Drawde/Rory/Lace/whatever the fuck he's calling himself these days is not only still here but dominating the conversation

>>44140502
>not only still here but dominating the conversation
That's what he does to any general he decides to squat in.

More reasons why generals are cancer.

>>44139958
>>44140502
>>44140585
>We do actually get to have interesting discussions this way instead of Aspel shitting up the entire thread with arguments (especially arguments that continue from thread to thread) or shilling his homebrew.
You're bringing baggage from other threads into this one to complain about people bringing baggage into the threads

>>44140502
Yeeeah... Honestly I'd probably just end up gutting the game sans powers and a thing or two and just keep the game. Just wanna play a out an out monster man, be a leviathan and 'troll'/harass a fishing village and feed off their fear of the town going under.

Oh well, I might just incorporate that into a Changeling game since I'm not following in-book description (as far as I know) of the Hedge.

>>44140803
Changeling sounds much more suitable for what you want. Autumn Court in general and Scarecrow Ministry in particular, and loads of possible seemings and kiths depending on what bit of troll/leviathan you want to focus on. Probably Ogre, but Beast (as in, animal type Changelings that are also called Beasts, just to add to the confusion with the Vampire Beast and the Beast Beast), Darkling (spooky creaturess), maybe Wizened or a water elemental would also work.

The Hedge doesn't have to be a physical hedge, there's oceans and deserts as well. Its basically just an interstitial fae place that's part real and part not, and it can look like all sorts of things. What are you describing it as, might I ask?

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I stumbled upon Matt McFarland's actual playthroughs for Beast the other day. It explains quite a lot about all this if this how its supposed to go and what he was happy to share.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759812-Beast-The-Primordial-Roots-in-the-Community

Some excerpts:

>Michelle's character is Maia Wallis (Makara Ravager). Maia prefers to feed by getting into relationships with men and then slowing wrecking their lives. They're free to walk at any point, of course (she doesn't stalk them if they break up with her). She teaches the lesson that some relationships are toxic and it's better to end them.
>Toasty's character is Tyler Townsend (Eshmaki Nemesis)... As a Nemesis, he tries to teach thieves that their lives aren't worth whatever they're trying to steal (he runs an antique shop).
>Amanda plays Miriana Kyle (Eshmaki Predator)... As a Predator, she seeks to remind people that their status on the food chain isn't a given - even people can be prey.
>Matt plays John Dawson (Ugallu (Predator). He owns a house in the neighborhood, where he takes people (children, often), whose families are lying to one another and otherwise toxic. He lets them freak out, then returns the kid a few days later, unharmed.

>Dawson finishes up the practice, noting which parents are there cheering for their kids and which ones stay on their cell phones the whole time, ignoring what's going on. He doesn't need to feed right now, but he notes which of his charges might need to get lost for a few hours at some point, just enough to make their parents take notice.

> Maia goes on her date. She's lost a dot of Satiety (I made the offer to all of them at the beginning of the sesson; lose a dot, get a Beat), so she's hungry. She activates Heart of the Ocean and, wouldn't you know, Ryan is indeed her type - drawn to bad relationships. She immediately seduces him, looking forward to making his life hell over the next few weeks.

It goes on like this.

>>44139958
The Promethean one's had a promising development about a wasteland spreading Camper-Van of doom. I've got to get to bed now, but I hope it survives the night. >>44139920

>>44141774
Jesus, that's pretty twisted.

>>44141774
>Maia wallis
>Mia Wallace
That's Uma Thurman's character from Pulp Fiction, isn't it?

>>44141917
There's not really a problem with Beast playing like that, to be honest. I mean, "you're a monster" has been the point of WoD games since VtM.
Really the problem was the mechanics and he "social commentary".

>>44141439
Yeah thats what I've been going for mostly, planing a desert and some kinda tundra at least for my game. But man, from what I've read I always get the feeling of the hedge just being brambles and rough dirt. Like hell, I'm trying to get rid/tone down the amount of brambles by offering a giant steppe's like area surronded by mountains as the players Hollow and the carcass of a colossal monster as the local Goblin Market.

>>44141944
It's not the fact that "You're a monster." That bugs me. The thing that makes it feel strangely dark is the fact that it feels like, "These victims deserve this."

>>44141439
Also since I didn't answer your question, I've stuck with it being brambles for the start and I'm planning on stepping further and further away into desert and tundra like I mentioned in my other post. I'm gonna try an play up a more alien kinda dream logic geography compared to just brambles.

>>44142021
Which honestly is kind of a cop out. Every vampire has been telling themselves that for over 20 years.

>>44141981
The thorns are a metaphor.

>>44142270
Know what got me the most about the comparisions to vampire and every other line? Beast is the only fucking splat where the PC's can't look monstrous as all. Every single fucking mainline splat, besides Hunter, can look monstrous. But not the god damn splat about being a BEAST.

>nwod is shit, more news at 11

>>44141831
It probably won't lets be honest theres two beast threads a this is the least popular one.

Rarely have I seen a game get such ubiquitous yet well-reasoned-out hatred.
>>44141774
I barfed a little in my mouth.
>>44138755
>They are trying so hard to push a progressive agenda into their game, but even as a liberal, all it does is come off as pretentious, condescending, even clueless. Pic related. The same goes for Mage20, where on page 258 they essentially call people of different sexualities and races "the Other" and act like they're giving you permission to roleplay them. It's like they don't understand that people already find these things perfectly acceptable. The moment the WoD gets preachy is the moment it has lost its ability to convey any meaningful message at all.
Tell me about it.

>>44141774
So wait, their idea is to push the progressive agenda that "otherkin" or people who feel different on the inside are valuable people too.

Okay.

But they take these "others" and make them monsters who destroy lives and ruin people.

This is like arguing for gay marriage, then showing proof that gays deliberately spread HIV. You're fighting your own agenda.

>>44145586
Maybe theiy're slipping back into the old White Wolf mind set and are doing more bad than good. That or Matt thinks this is all witting commentary.

>>44145586
>>44145834

Yeah, it really does remind one of old WW.

OPP is regressing. It's sad.

>>44145897
Man as long as it doesn't get to shitty in CtL I won't super mind beast being a bad stain on the companys name. I'm not really sure how they could 'sjw' up the game about being raped. abused and powerless without absolutely destroying it's theme.

>>44146087

Uhhhhh...

They're doing that. That is exactly what is happening.

see >>44137927 and >>44139284

>>44146325
Huh, well fuck me they did it. Well fuck everything, at least I can house rule/ignore them changing the theme with little issue. Also we got any sauce on the 'beautiful madness' rant?

>>44139284
>>44137927
>empowering
>taking back agency
Ew, why? It's like nerfing Anima's Inquisition into the ground, getting rid of 40k's Perils Tables or making Demon more "empowering" by taking more inspiration from Reloaded and Revolutions than Dark City.

And fuck. that.

>>44146468
Hey maaaaaaan, don't you wanna take back the power and fight those OPPRESORS that made you fit their mold! They can't keep you down now! It's not like their basicly walking fucking gods that can have three physical bodies on top of being their own fucking sub-dimension.

>>44138124
Man that'd be perfect. Both yankees and carpetbaggers inspiring fear in different portions of the native population, encouraging disastrous and destructive revenge laws levied on the people of the South while the other inspires bloody racial violence against former slaves as people take out their frustration and mistreatment by the government at large on an easy scapegoat.

>>44139284
You know after reading the rant, I kinda get it, it's just him not wanting to go back to the fishmalk thing to a degree. I still like Beautiful Madness more than Sweet lies and Bittersweet Truths, or whatever it is, but it's just a new... slogan? Catchphrase? Whatever for the second edition. But niggah crazy if he thinks Changeling is a game about empowerment, that shit is about TRYING to build a life with the looming shadow of a fucking God like figure deciding it wants it's damn toy back and coming to fuck your 'life' up.

>>44147231
Meant yankees and KKK obviously. Ah well you get my point. It's a big circle of fear and hatred two sides of one coin could self-perpetuate to cause fear, suffering, and nightmares.

>>44138755
>that's a stupid fucking name
If I had to guess it would be to differentiate New and Old WoD to people who are new to it, That way people don't see 'new' world of darkness and assume it is an update to old world of darkness, it makes them separate entities. that are more easily distinguishable.

>>44139394
It includes terms used by the insane only and tries to play it off as normal.

>>44141774
So, why exactly are Heroes supposed to be in the wrong again?

>>44147712
Such as?

File: platonic ideal of dunking.jpg (47KB, 465x600px) Image search: [Google]

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>>44147714
because you aren't supposed to murder people just because they're shitty
that said, most Beasts aren't just the platonic ideal of 'a shitty person' like WW is pretending they are, they're actual soul-consuming psychopaths, so it fell completely fucking flat

I come in here and find out the fucker who made Beast is now redoing Changeling, which is a massive example of 'fixing what isn't broken'. Changeling was just about as close to a the perfect nWoD splat as possible, even if it had almost no room for expansion, and now I find out that the hamfisted social justice politicizing of beast is going to happen to it?

Fuck my life.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm what people would call a social justice warrior on here. I generally -like- that sort of thing being put into gaming, because uncomfortable topics, when handled well, can really push the boundries of a setting if done right.

Beast is an example of how exactly NOT to handle it, and now it's happening to fucking Changeling? Which was an example of -exactly- how to handle fucking really uncomfortable topics in a tabletop rpg and make it -work-?

Jesus christ. That just puts a massive fucking stain on what was an otherwise wonderful day.

>>44147738
'alternate pronouns'. I'm not a person that thinks transexualism isn't a thing, but I'm also not a person who believes in more than two genders or thinks you need special pronouns to make yourself special and unique.

>>44147714

Because they're the designated villain.

>>44147748
Yeah, being a shitty person is no justification for being murdered.
Being a supernatural monster that goes around ruining the lives of people with no chance of redemption might be. I mean, it's not like they can stop.

>>44147750
Changeling and Promethean were great books. But it's not like they are going away and the WoD community has always been beyond saving. Just play with the old Changeling books and ignore the shitpiles, as usual.

So, what about the new edition of Mage: the Awakening? I didn't follow its development. How it's gonna be?

>>44147782
>Changeling and Promethean were great books. But it's not like they are going away and the WoD community has always been beyond saving. Just play with the old Changeling books and ignore the shitpiles, as usual.
That's my plan, I just feel like it's a damn shame because OTHERWISE, they were on such a good track record with the 2e stuff, right up until Beast. The Vampire book was really interesting, Demon was fucking fantastic, but it really feels like they're losing track of the key principle of WoD.

You are almost always, ultimately, the victim.

Every time.

You can be a super powered vampire, and you are still bound by the masquerade and your hunger. You can't break free of that. You are limited, and you are pretty much fodder for any other super natural out there if caught in the open.

You can be an almighty mage, and still get your shit wrecked when a mortal takes notice of your shenanigans at the wrong time.

Changeling and Promethean are definitionally about being victims at the end of the day.

Hunter, fuck, that's just being a victim from a different angle.

When you go out of your way to 'empower' any of these figures, the only way to do so is to necessarily take away from the horror elements of the game, and undo the themes, and it's just a real shame to see WW doing that to it's horror setting.

You want to be empowered? Go play Exalted.

World of Darkness is about being superhuman and -still- ultimately being powerless against certain things in the world, no matter h ow mighty you become within your own sphere.

>>44147797
> I didn't follow its development. How it's gonna be?
It's actually being handled by someone competent whose precious little soul doesn't melt down from "online harassment".
>>So, what about the new edition of Mage: the Awakening?
Stuck in development hell. Actually, belay that. Editing hell. The text has been done for the better part of this year.

>>44147714
Because apparantly they're bigots who are in thrall to "The Narrative"

>Where monsters hunt, Heroes follow. As a Beast grows in power, she inevitably attracts hunters, who follow the nightmares she leaves in her wake like tracks left in the dust. Literature idealizes these figures as square-jawed champions heroically putting themselves between depraved monsters and their innocent victims, but the Children know the truth is more complicated. Once the mythic link takes hold of a person, they are at best a ruthless stalker willing to commit any act in the name of “heroism.” At worst, these Heroes are gibbering, gore-spattered maniacs, whose obsessive quest to destroy the Beast that haunts them twists their minds and makes them dangerous to everyone around them.

>Having been raised with the same stories as everyone else, it can be very difficult for Beasts to process this reaction, to feel as though the whole world hates them and wants them dead. On the one hand, even the noblest Beast is still indisputably a monster of the darkest sort of nightmares, one who inevitably preys on human beings to satiate her Hunger. On the other hand, the Beast wasn’t exactly offered a choice in the matter, and often is simply doing their best to survive like any other creature. Coupled with the fact that many of these self-styled Heroes are capable of atrocities in the name of the greater good — after all, what isn’t justified to stop a dragon preying on your town? — it can become very hard to tell who’s the villain in the situation.

>>44148212
>Ultimately, Beasts recognize that the Hero cycle is as much a part of their nature as their Lair and their Soul. Humanity fears Beasts — that’s the intrinsic truth of what they are — and what humanity fears it invariably attempts to destroy. Beasts quickly learn that they can’t become angry at people for having that reaction. But at the same time, the Children know that they have a right to exist. The world is a terrifying place, and the monsters in the dark are there for a reason. The dominant narrative may be “Hero arises, kills the monster,” but the Begotten see past that, and know that it doesn’t have to be thus. Heroes, for their part, never question their own heroism — and that is why Beasts hate them.

The book then goes on to describe all of the Beast sub types and give examples of potential characters for each. The majority of them are complete psychopaths.

So is this thread just complaining about Beast stuff that's already been changed, and hating how OPP is "too SJW", or what?

>>44148252

I still don't understand how Beast is supposed to be sold, and who the target audience. I've played all kinds of weird RPGs, and there's nothing in this one that's really appealing. Seriously, who's going to buy this?

>>44145586

Yeah, that's the reason tumblr was against it.

>>44148230
>I have a right to exist despite being nothing more than a horrible monster and parasite and anyone that tries to stop me is evil!

>>44148252
>So is this thread just complaining about Beast stuff that's already been changed, and hating how OPP is "too SJW", or what?
That is a stupid question. Read the thread or get out.

>>44148212
>>44148230

The point of heroes is they are equally psychopathic, essentially starting as extremeist hunters. The wirte up for them shows them just as bad as the worst of the beasts -One's first kill was his wn co-worker who was only trying to help jump start his car. The second 'took up the mantle' by trying to murder her own son. A 'true' hero would be able to see if the beast is an actual threat or not and is capable of mercy and genuine compassion, you know, like a hero is supposed to do.

I actually really like beast and the heroes. I would love to do a high integrity Hero in a Hunter the vigil story with a 'paladin' archetype or somesuch.

I'm actually doing a beast story at present for HTV where the cell's main ally and mentor is secretly an ugallu collector who has 'collected' them and continues to feed of all their loot while being ferociously protective of them and genuinely being the kindest person they've met so far.

I don't quite get the 'It's tumblr!' narrative some people have been throwing at it because it seems to be missing the point of the splat.

>>44148308
It's both /pol/ and Tumblr at the same time.

>>44148308

The thing is that all those kills were in fact Beasts. They didn't randomly attack people, they killed monsters. I mean, it's like if I was a Muslim-hating racist...But then I shot dead a terrorist. I didn't kill anyone else, just that terrorist.

That's a heroic act.

>>44148308
>Nightmare monster that tortures people to feed
>THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY BAD GUYS YOU DON'T HAVE TO KILL THEM

>>44148328

It's interesting to note how GARO does it. In that series, when a human is possessed by a Horror, he's gone. Sure, it might still look and act human, but it has to die, no exceptions.

>>44148339
What's Garo?

>>44148308
>Beowulf
>Mercy for monsters
Hahahaha.

I would like to compare Beast to Promethean. After all, both games are about people who are not really human and who eventually end up ruining the lives of those around them.

In Beast, you are actively ruining people's lives. That's the source of your power. You are a horrible person who will eventually cause so much shit that you will be hunted down by the physical manifestation of how horrible you are. You're an awful being meant to be put down. Even vampires are far less disruptive and shitty, which makes it hard for you to feel Beasts are tragic people, even though you could legitimately argue that they didn't choose to be born this way. While Heroes are meant to be portrayed as creepily obsessed, weak-minded bigots who are consumed to hunt down Beasts because they dare to be different (after all, they're described as "already broken people"), it rings hollow when you consider that they're created when a Beast is fucking with people's minds.

Prometheans are extremely similar on the surface. Except that the shit a Promethean causes is inadvertent. The Wasteland and all that jazz is a side-effect of you existing, it's not an active choice you make. Eventually people will chase you down, but it's not some cosmic boogeyman or even a result of your actions, it's just regular people who've figured out that you are... wrong. This ties into the themes of not being quite human and isolationism, because wherever you go, no matter how kind and gentle you are, you always end up alienating people. It's tragic, because not only does the Promethean usually not wish for this to happen, but the people coming after them are just regular people doing what most of us would do. You can relate to both sides, but there really isn't a solution to the problem.

Not saying you can't play a game about fundamentally fucked up beings and that it can't be interesting, but as designed Beast doesn't embrace that theme and it's a less interesting game from a thematic standpoint as a result.

>>44148340

It's a Japanese toku. Very WOD-esque, with demon-hunting knights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upHR-T0HaOo

>>44148308
But her "son" was slowly killing her and the rest of her family. Her son was gone, divoured by the Beast that had taken over his body.

>>44148308
>mercy and genuine compassion
>for torturers and serial killers
No. Just no. It doesn't matter if they are broken and can't control themselves - they have to be stopped.

>>44148325

True, and that's the point of the splat. You -are- a monster, and potentially always were. How do you feel about that? You were still raised to be human, and there's still elements of your human life within you. Are you actually the monster of myth that needs to be killed
or not, though?

>>44148328

You're still sentient and can feed carefully according to your won ethical code. You can actually go ahead and never harm anyone at all if you're clever.

>>44148346

Heroes are no longer created by beasts, they are merely able to track down beasts who -do- go around torturing people. It is very possible to get caught up in the crossfire.

>>44148328
They also only become Heroes in the first place because the Beast tortured them to insanity by overfeeding their nightmare egos, and if they try and stop being Heroes their soul dies. So that's nice.

I also realised I have two drafts of Beast. One is clearly the earlier one, because its got the infamous "ethics in video game journalism" reference for Heroes that got taken out a bit later as being too stupid. The fact that people on the other side of "Internet Arguments" is still suggested as a primary method of understanding Heroes really tells you a lot about the authors and their intended audience though.

>>44148363

The problem here, PDF anon, is that almost nobody has any idea what Beast is currently like: they have all read the first draft and then dropped it forever.

>>44148363
>Implying my moral code allows me to torture and kill people to sustain my own life.
>Implying being 'sentient' (you mean sapient unless you're a hyper vegan ARA) means you deserve to live even if your life is actively harmful to other sapients.

>>44148367

As I said, heroes aren't 'made' by a beast any more. If anything they're opposite sides of the same spectrum. You always were the Hero, just as you alawys were the Beast.

>>44148374

That seems to be the case. The amended draft is -far- better. Not that I mind. When my hunter cell figures out their benefactor is 'one of them' he'll be having this exact same conversation.

>>44148381

That's the same issue that Vampires and Werewolvs have too. You're a monster, true enough. There's nothing stopping you from refusing to act the part.

>>44148363
>You're still sentient and can feed carefully according to your won ethical code. You can actually go ahead and never harm anyone at all if you're clever.
Bullshit. Satiety is also your integrity state meaning that low satiety actively works against everything you are.

>>44148295
That's the impression I got from the thread, you stupid fuck.

>>44148276
Well, most of the things people are saying in this thread are either wrong or of the Kickstarter version. Almost everything got changed, except important things like mechanics.

The game isn't GOOD, it's a mess of possibly good ideas and no aim or purpose. But it's not the unholy mix of /pol/ and tumblr that everyone is making it out to be. No one in this thread has read Beast.

I say people fix that
http://www.mediafire.com/view/ib89797s9esdsdd/Beast_the_Primordial_-_Core.pdf

>>44148374
>The problem here, PDF anon
Hey, that wasn't me. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Most of these people didn't even read the original version, I bet.

>>44148388
>That's the same issue that Vampires and Werewolvs have too.
The difference is, nobody is trying to pretend vampires and werewolves aren't monsters, especially not the writers.

>>44148403
The writers constantly said Beasts were monsters. Matt even acted like the game was too "dark" for some people.

File: Beast - The REEEEE (Old).jpg (62KB, 925x120px) Image search: [Google]

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>>44148388

>That seems to be the case.

That's exactly the case, which makes all your points meaningless: nobody has read the same version you are talking about and nobody ever will, because the first version forever poisoned their minds.


Man, the first draft of Beast was such a wonderful thing to hate.

>>44148363
Still makes it hard to see them as anything other than a necessity. We're told Beasts need to exist, and that there's a reason. I'm not quite seeing it. We're told Heroes are the manifestation of humanity wanting to destroy what they fear, but what I see is someone killing monsters.

Vampire or Promethean have very similar themes, but manage to pull them off far better. Beast not only feels redundant since the whole "magical creatures who feed on emotion" shtick is already occupied, but it feels extremely weird thematically. I get what they were going for. "What if all those monsters were actually pretty decent people and the heroes who killed them obsessive psychopaths?" But unlike, say, Promethean the Beasts never come off as sympathetic or tragic. They're there to teach us stupid, pretentious lessons they use to justify how fundamentally horrible they are. Not only are vampires less harmful with their feeding habits, they don't try to justify their existence as necessary, and most accept they're horrible blood-sucking monstrosities.

>>44148413
I think you're mixing up two concepts.

It admits they are monsters in the
>Inhuman creature
Sense, but it does not want to admit that
>They're horrible creatures that are innately negative and deserve to die for this.
Because it's stuck on the idea of trying to portray people who stop them as evil.

>>44148391

Your horror is not outright antagonistic to you unless you reach satiety 0 (where it just kills you), unlike say the vampire's beast or a werewolf's rage. You can still refuse to do harm. There is never any 'override' to your behaviour.

>>44148403

-Nowhere- in the book does it say that you aren't a monster either. Where did you get this? It says beasts can be moral and do whatever they want, again, just like any other splat.

The whole point of beast is that it's a subversion of the traditional narrative. Yes, you are -the- monster, so what are you going to do?

>>44148419

Welp. I'm happy with it at least. Got a few good characters form it and I'm having fun.

>>44148426
See >>44148425

>>44148426

Do you remember all those otherkins on RPGnet, crying when the first draft was changed and Beasts went from monsters souls born in human bodies to humans whose souls were devoured by the nightmare? What happened to them? Did they drop the game?

>>44148393
Is that the most recent version? Because I've got two of the older ones here, and let me tell you, they killed my desire to play WoD games in general if that was what the current authors thought would be a hit. Really, that and Age of Sigmare damn near killed my enthusiasm for /tg/ in general.

>>44148423

>We're told Beasts need to exist, and that there's a reason. I'm not quite seeing it.

Ah, see that's the point. The beasts -say- they're required to 'scare people straight' but honestly, a lot of people really -don't- need that or want it. Beasts are essentially bygones that don't really belong, and thus need to rebuild themselves properly for a new world (i.e. 'building a myth'.) You're atavistic rather than modern.

>>44148425

There heroes are not -evil- per se, and the book doesn't really say they are. The 'antagonist' hero is an extremeist, and it is that what makes his bad. The book outright states that if you're being an utter bastard and you get chased by a hero than you deserve it. It is very possible to have a good, truly rightous hero; but the point of the splat is that they're -meant- to be antagonist to you. Ultimately no one is really in the right, but the heroes do, in the end, end up fighitng the truer evil via their abilities (i.e rampant beasts, beasts abusing folk or their nightmares).

>>44148442

I have no idea there was even any otherkin, I thought it was just some wierd joke, never occured to me really. You can easily imply that the nightmare was your soul all along, and the book offers that as an -option- if that's what you're after I geuss?

>>44148466

The latest draft are better. It removed a lot of the INTERNET ARGUMENTS AND CYBERBULLIES tone and made both sides of the story more ambiguous.

>>44148480

>I have no idea there was even any otherkin

That's a pity, I hoped you would have been more in touch with the community surrounding this game. It was very funny, but at some point I lost interest and now I don't know how it ended.

>>44148497

I'm considering making one of my players a beast. If she makes an otherkin comment I think I might just tank the game because... no. Just no. You're a primordial terror, not tumblr fapbait!

>>44148480
>No one is in the right
>The people killing the evil torturers and murderers aren't in the right.

>>44148525

The whole point of my argument is that you don't actually -have- to be at all, and therein lies the both the conflict and the storytelling, especially when some heroes are just as bad.

>>44148537
>you don't actually -have- to be
You do or you die. That's not an argument. Whoever you're playing is going to deserve to die, and even if you're literally playing someone committing slow suicide, getting killed by a hero is a mercy to an inevitability.

>>44147808
If there is a single splat about empowerment, it's probably Hunter. I say probably because at the end of the day you are still really mortal, but it is still about trying to murder your oppressors.

File: Beast Playtest.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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These are the older drafts I found on my HD, in case anyone was curious. I think this one may have been the infamous Leaked copy.

>>44148548

As you get hungrier it's far easier to feed. If you're starving you cause nightmares, sure, but they're only nightmares. You're hand is not forced to hurt anyone.

But that's an -option- for the player's own story. There's nothing stopping you from being the bastard, and frankly nothing should so...

>Whoever you're playing is going to deserve to die

Yes. That's an option. If that's the narrative you want, then great, sounds good and that's perfectly fine. The same could be said of -any- of the monstrous splats mind and the book does not say you shouldn't play the bad guy, even as it says shoudn't play the moralistic beast. One of the inheritances is pretty much committing suicide because you can't bear living as you are in the real world.

Personally I like narratives that show people fighting against their darkest natures, and I'm very fond of moral ambiguity and rightousness coming from dark places.

>>44148597

Yep, that's the infamous one! Don't bother, they've changed a lot.

File: Beast Kickstarter Preview (public).pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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>>44148597
And this one was the Kickstarter version. It was only when basically the entire WoD community apart from a few demented Otherkin turned on them that they were forced to make hasty rewrites..

>>44148624

Oh, I've just noticed they've changed the birthrights around a bit. Huh.

>>44148609
>Constantly horrifying nightmares don't cause anyone any suffering
>They don't mentally torture the weak willed
>They don't keep people from sleeping out of fear, physically torturing them

Also
>That's an option
You completely ignore the point here. The point being, the book tries to say heroes are bad for killing the monsters, that they don't all deserve it. But they do. They absolutely deserve to die, and this talk about 'options' is entirely irrelevant.

>>44148801

No, the heroes are painted as bad for being extremists who'd happily sacrifice the innocent for their own gain and don't give a toss about anyone but themselves.

If you want the narrative to say that you deserve to die, then go for it. That's your option.

>>44148212
So hold on, you play as a Beast, a vindictive monster that hurts humans but has a conscience and tries its best to punish those it deems unworthy. This mental torture leaves behind a trail that causes people to pursue you trying to stop you from hurting people or even just to silence the madness that resonates from you.

And you are expected to sympathize with the beast?

This is literally the plot of every superhero story where the villain tries to justify his action by saying he only hurts those who deserve. This game is saying that "eye for an eye" is ok because your are suffering.

I can't imagine how far the developer's head are up their asses that they designed a game where you are allowed to vindictively punish people but then somehow you are the oppressed one when you are vindictively punished back.

Is this some kind of meta joke? Are WW trying to lambast the tumblr boogeyman this hard by making some kind of honeypot that acts as a litmus test for detecting horrible people?

>>44148883
It's not an option, it's basic logic the system itself is trying to ignore to paint them as 'ambiguous'.

>>44148425
They're not innately negative, they just skew that way. And that's intentional. This is bad guys, who sometimes justify what they're doing. They're people who literally have to do bad things.

>>44148466
That's the official final version. And even if it was as bad as the kickstarter, it's not like oWoD wasn't worse.

>>44148883
Not anymore they're not.

>>44136960
It is strange. Levianthan covers many of the same ideas but it's authors actually put some thought into making them interesting in a way that fit in with the rest of the nWoD. It's mechanically clunky as all hell, but that's true of almost all fansplats. It's a lot like Promethean, a fundamentally stupid idea (I wanna play as Frankenstein's monster) handled with enough creativity to make something interesting.

Beast, on the other hand, covered the same ground as Leviathan but put absolutely no thought into anything. It ended up as a jumbled mess of mismatched and frankly boring concepts.

>>44148901
>They're not innately negative
>Literally have to feed on fear and suffering to survive.

Also you just said that yourself, so how in the fuck are heroes supposed to be bad for killing them?

>>44148609
>If you're starving you cause nightmares, sure, but they're only nightmares
Horrible, soul-raping nightmares that you inflict on people. Not only is this borderline mind-rape, but they're also apparently terrible enough that there are literal cosmic cleaners who exist solely to stop you from doing it. Not to mention them being caused by a horrible entity literally made out of fear. The fact that Heroes are meant to be the bad guys because they're actually pissed that you enter people's dreams without permission because you're a horrible selfish person is weird. Your raison-d'étre is to ruin people's lives because MUH NECESSARY FEAR.

Prometheans cause arguably worse things to happen, but that's merely a side-effect of their existence. That game is based around trying to not ruin people's lives and turning your entire existence into a giant pile of shit in exchange, whereas Beast is about being a shitty person who selfishly fucks over everyone around you to extend your own life. It's tragic when a Promethean gets hunted, because odds are he didn't mean to hurt anyone. It's fucking great when a Beast gets hunted, because if they found him it means he did something bad.

If you want to do the whole "personification of fear" gimmick, at least make the fears actual stuff that makes sense and would be cool thematically. Rather than hoarders or shitty girlfriends, go for fear of heights or fear of fire. You know, shit that is instinctual and primal because it's what keeps us alive. Maybe if a Fire Beast stops doing its job, people stop being scared of fire, resulting in accidents, injuries, or even deaths? If a Heights Beast stops scaring people, kids jump out windows and bungy jumpers "forget" their cords? That way it would be far more intriguing and potentially tragic, as you're forced to do shitty things to people for their own good, rather than being a shit with some flimsy justification or for entirely selfish reasons.

>>44148927

No one has ever said heroes were bad for killing -beasts-. We said they were bad for being generally dispicable people who'll quite happily butcher everyone else to get at the beast in qutestion. They're a villain who occasionally is justified, but still a villian. What part of this did you not read into?

>Literally have to feed on fear and suffering to survive

And what exactly is wrong with this gamewise? Vampires eat people to survive and werewolves are murderhobos, with mages being megolomaniac reality warpers.

>>44148957

>Heroes are meant to be the bad guys because they're actually pissed that you enter people's dreams without permission because you're a horrible selfish person is weird.

As I said, that's not how it's written, I don't understand how people are getting this?

>If you want to do the whole "personification of fear" gimmick, at least make the fears actual stuff that makes sense and would be cool thematically. Rather than hoarders or shitty girlfriends, go for fear of heights or fear of fire. You know, shit that is instinctual and primal because it's what keeps us alive. Maybe if a Fire Beast stops doing its job, people stop being scared of fire, resulting in accidents, injuries, or even deaths? If a Heights Beast stops scaring people, kids jump out windows and bungy jumpers "forget" their cords? That way it would be far more intriguing and potentially tragic, as you're forced to do shitty things to people for their own good, rather than being a shit with some flimsy justification or for entirely selfish reasons.

That's a really good idea and there's nothig stopping you do this. Beasts are bastards in the end though, and the 'lessons' are more an excuse than reason to exsist. How each individual beast decides to go about this however is part of the narrative.

>>44149001
>And what exactly is wrong with this gamewise?
Nothing but the fact that you and your game try to pretend beast are not all innately evil and deserving of death and that the people who try to stop them are evil.

>>44148927
And vampires have to drink blood.

>>44149042
An argument levied at EVERY WoD game.

>>44149042

I have never at any point said that is not the case, nor that there is anything wrong in thinking that. What I'm highlighting is player agency to change the narrative and -not- be a horrible rapebeast. You know like every other WoD game ever.

>>44149054

Like that.

>>44149054
The game does not pretend vampires aren't horrible abominations that deserve to die.

>>44149067
>player agency to change the narrative and -not- be a horrible rapebeast
With beasts you literally can't.

Looking it over, maybe I can't find anything about it... but does the game do anything with the fact that a lot of the mythological horrors, the giants, the sea beasts, etc. Were the original inhabitants of the world?

That you've got the figure like Yahweh, Marduk, Zeus, Tezcatlipoca; slaying the primordial world monster, and building the current world out of its remains.

The whole idea of the primordial dream seems backwards. It's this world which is the creation.

>>44149080
Yes it does. Yes you can.

>>44149104
No and no. You have provided zero examples in particular of a way the beasts can function without fucking people over.

>>44149001
My problem is that I literally came up with a version that makes more sense and has more going on than the version they went with in like five minutes. Nevermind rewrites or whatever, the fundamental concept is something a lot of people seem to have trouble with and considers quite dumb, myself included. It seems like very little thought went into theming and consistency with Beast, and the end result is a schizophrenic experience that doesn't seem to quite know what it wants to be. The best WoD games were always the ones who picked a theme and just ran with it, like Changeling.

>>44149080

>The game does not pretend vampires aren't horrible abominations that deserve to die.

Neither does beast. Have you actually read the final version?

>>player agency to change the narrative and -not- be a horrible rapebeas

Which you can and is the endgame. Two of the inheritences are pretty much this.

>Don't want to be a rapebeast, better fuck off to the astral forver
>Don't want to be a rapebeast. better change my legend to something else and become an incarnae of Not-Being-a-rapebeast

>>44149117

The book gives plenty of examples. You can feed through other supernaturals. You can tailor your hunger to react to specific things, hell the book gives you examples: *The nurse who collects the dying in hospital so that she may comfort them and protect them from -real- predators. The giant who who's a professional safe-cracker and who lords over and collects his collection of broken locks. Hell the punisher hunger is basically vigilantism and the 'prey' can very easily be turned into a concept ('the truth') or other monsters. Again, the book gives you these examples in plain text.

>>44149140

Beast was built to fit in with other splats so naturally it's themes are meant to bleed with theirs. What you promote is up to the chronicle in question, but fine, that's a fair point.

>>44149054
The difference is that vampires don't necessarily harm people the way Beasts do. And that they're portrayed as horrible monstrosities at the best of times, while the people hunting them generally being portrayed as pretty cool guys (unless they're somehow trying to exploit vampires for their own gain). Vampire hunters are the good guys. Heroes are obsessive psychopaths.

>>44149215

The games theme is to subvert the narrative of being a monster, thus I personally give more leeway for beats being show in a more positive light, even though the book flat out says that you're very much a monster.

As above, there are plenty of ways beasts can feed without hurting people.

-Antagonist- heroes are obsessive psychopaths. There are 'good' ones around and the book even suggests merging them as HTV characters if you want.

>>44149117
Yes I can.

Vampires are constantly treated in their own book as if they deserve to live, even though literally all of them are parasitic. There are passages about blood orgies and how they toy with mortals for fun, running huge cults, or making people harm themselves for shits and giggles. There's every so often a passage about how maybe vampires are bad guys, and they're all assholes who deserve to be Hunted, but overall you're meant to get the impression that when you're playing a vampire, mortals are lesser beings. In fact, that's true of every splat, including Mages, who have the stated goal of raising mortals up.

Beast likewise doesn't require you to be an asshole. Almost every Beast example is someone justifying unleashing their Horror because they're doing it on a bad guy. Beast is basically Dexter: The RPG. In fact? The Dark Passenger is basically a Horror as is, and Dexter is a Beast. Doakes is a Hero. Dexter-as-Beast either inflicts his Horror upon other Beasts who he feels are too monstrous, or he deals with Sating himself on mortal serial killers who cross the line into murder.

>>44149140
Chances are your version completely ignores some of the basic themes.
This might surprise you, but what you find dumb other people don't.

>>44149215
The LEAST harm a vampire can do to someone is equivalent to stabbing them with a knife very gently. Most will do quite a bit worse. And the average vampire is portrayed as a horrible monster with zero redeeming features other than "was once a human". I actually can't think of a Vampire NPC who's portrayed as not being a jerk to humans.

And most of the vampire hunters that show up are just as one note as Beasts. They're rednecks with shotguns who just don't UNDERSTAND why you need to mentally dominate and abuse their daughter, or ruin their life for your own personal gain.

>>44134662
I have not played it. Geist was the most recent nWoD thing I played so I've avoided a lot of drama apparently. Just taking a cursory glance at things that have come out it really is looking like they've jumped the shark. Where did that happen exactly? Was it Geist? Things started seeming a little wonky and stupid for me with Geist.

>>44149164
>Beast was built to fit in with other splats so naturally it's themes are meant to bleed with theirs
That's a weird way of reasoning, though. The first priority should be making the game interesting on its own, and then add ways to integrate it with the others. For example, a Beast representing the fear of darkness could easily mesh with a vampire since the fear of darkness is largely a survival tool to protect against predators we can't see.

>>44149383
Geist was... weird. Not necessarily horrible, but it felt kind of out of place and strange. Demon was actually pretty good if you were into that sort of game, but like others have said earlier, it was kind of this strange Matrix thing rather than an actual supernatural horror game.

Beast is more like those really bad oWoD supplements that were borderline offensive. You know, the ones that try to handle a theme with dignity and respect, but ends up being ridiculous and kind of offensive in its ignorance. Or, if you're not familiar with the oWoD supplements, it's kind of like Changing Breeds in that it's meant to be a weird support supplement that just falls flat on its face both mechanically and thematically.

>>44134662
It's pretty fun, even if it isn't as well put together as the other games.

>>44149117
Crossposting: >>44150006

>>44141774
>Maia prefers to feed by getting into relationships with men and then slowing wrecking their lives.
>As a Predator, she seeks to remind people that their status on the food chain isn't a given - even people can be prey.
>These are the "good guy" Beasts

>>44145586
>>44145834
From back when Matt finally realized what he'd originally written was a steaming pile of shit, he said that Beasts were never intended to be a stand-in for actual minorities, and if that HAD been his intention he wouldn't have made them fucking evil hypocrites.

>>44147750
>I come in here and find out the fucker who made Beast is now redoing Changeling, which is a massive example of 'fixing what isn't broken'.
No he isn't. The guy redoing Changeling is an entirely DIFFERENT fucker (who at one point ranted on twitter about how the word waifu is racist and the people who use it are shitbags who need to stop). He is doing a lot of fixing what ain't broke, though, yes.

>>44147808
>You want to be empowered? Go play Exalted.
Somebody hasn't read the developers talking about Exalted, where the core theme is "there is no morality, the setting is all about the strong having a right to abuse the weak, and as the strongest thing in the setting you and your kind are the biggest part of that problem".

>>44147797
>So, what about the new edition of Mage: the Awakening? I didn't follow its development. How it's gonna be?
There's been an awful lot of open development on that one, and almost everything we've seen about 2e Mage actually IS an improvement because the guy doing that one actually understands the game he's heading up.

>>44148893
>This mental torture leaves behind a trail that causes people to pursue you trying to stop you from hurting people or even just to silence the madness that resonates from you.
>And you are expected to sympathize with the beast?
No. That trail of people you described are regular Hunters.

What distinguishes Heroes from Hunters is that Heroes are ALSO psychopaths: they don't care about protecting people or stopping suffering, they care about killing the Beast and then being deservedly worshipped by the plebs they just saved.

They will literally throw anyone who tries to help them into the jaws of the Beast because they cannot stand the idea of having to share the glory and not getting the kill completely on their own. To a Beast, the purpose of other people is to be victimized by you. To a Hero, the purpose of other people is to be used by you as necessary, and then to worship you.

They're both horrible fucked-up bastards.

>>44148346
>Even vampires are far less disruptive and shitty, which makes it hard for you to feel Beasts are tragic people, even though you could legitimately argue that they didn't choose to be born this way.
In the rewrite, Beasts are no longer "born this way" and do indeed have to make an active choice to become a Beast. They can refuse.

The people you play as are the people who didn't.

>>44148367
>They also only become Heroes in the first place because the Beast tortured them to insanity by overfeeding their nightmare egos
That's the opposite of how it worked in the first draft. You got Heroes when the Beast tried NOT to be an evil shitbag and refused to feed, so their monster soul decides to feed ITSELF by romping around in the collective unconsciousness terrorizing and devouring people like Freddy fucking Kreuger. This traumatizes some people, who snap and become Heroes who are obsessed with killing Freddy.

When you read about how you get Heroes, they're clearly tragic victim figures, because they're collateral damage caused by Beasts trying to be good people.

>>44148388
>You're a monster, true enough. There's nothing stopping you from refusing to act the part.
In the first draft? The thing stopping you from refusing to act the part was that's how you get Heroes.

In the new revision I don't remember the negative effects of low Satiety, but I'm pretty sure they're still along the lines of "your monster soul is starving and flipping the fuck out".

Overindulging your need to be a monster causes it to go into a food coma, leaving you as vulnerable as a normal human, so being a shitbag constantly is also a bad idea.

>>44148548
>Whoever you're playing is going to deserve to die, and even if you're literally playing someone committing slow suicide, getting killed by a hero is a mercy to an inevitability.
That's Vampire, not Beast.

>>44150457
And you know the worst part, the ONLY bests they are gonna be killing are the ones who have been starving themselves, you know, then ones who aren't actively feeding.

>>44149247
>And most of the vampire hunters that show up are just as one note as Beasts. They're rednecks with shotguns who just don't UNDERSTAND why you need to mentally dominate and abuse their daughter, or ruin their life for your own personal gain.
I've never seen Vampire Hunters portrayed as anything other than "if you're being evil/sloppy enough to get Hunters on your ass, you deserve the flamethrowering they're going to give you".

The only downside to Hunters is sometimes they decide to "kill a monster" and don't actually target a monster.

So, has anyone else been tempted to make a Beast that's based on Emiya Shirou, and who is damn well trying his best to be a superhero, running around helping people to feed his Hunger? I mean, it's not like the nWoD is lacking people being terrified by supernatural gribblies for a would-be superhero to rescue them from. Bonus points if he meets an overly-serious blonde Heroine and teaches her to value her femininity again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sYrG-3YwTw

Besides, wouldn't a Beast like that actually be the sort of person most other splats would be interested in hanging out with, rather than saying the equivalent "Fuck off, Centimanus" to?

>>44150733
"Person who is obsessed with being a hero instead of actually helping people" describes the Hero, not the Beast.

>>44150824
But that's not who Emiya Shirou is; he's obsessed with helping people, rather than caring about rewards or what people thought of him. That's why he wound up getting betrayed and executed.

Besides, you can't tell me that Unlimited Blade Works isn't spot-on for a Lair. ;)

>>44150336
Well not your kind yes, but not you, specifically.

You're a PC, after all, and thus the de facto last best hope.

>>44151788
*Well, your kind, yes

I need to sleep.

What the actual fuck, you double niggers.
>>44131229
>>44131229
>>44131229

>>44147797
Dave B is a fucking champion of Mage. There's very little changes to the fluff, mechanics or themes that anyone is upset about. Mage 2e is going to be GOTYAY.

>>44151788
Yes you, specifically, unless you turn your game into yet another "cure the Great Curse" game.

Otherwise the best you can hope for is that your PC turning into a horrible monstrous tyrant in the epilogue instead of the game.

>>44147750
> I generally -like- that sort of thing being put into gaming,
So fuck You, reap what you sowed and suck it down like i'll do. I didn't ask for anyone to come and make my favourite CofD book into autismal propaganda, you did, and we'll all pay the price of your moronic millennial activism.

>>44148230
>>44148308
So, heroes are humanity's antibodies?

Also, I would totally play a high integrity hero Hunter compact.

>>44146772
>>44146468

You know how the golden compass and the subtle blade both pointed ad an inevitable conflict with an old, evil god and his catholic church of evil... And they turns out "god" is a senile asshole who dies falling from the bed, the church is useless and it was all enlightened humanists all the way up the cosmos?
It's like that. Some people can't identify at all in another's point of view, so when they write something they insert themselves as the protagonists and everyone else is just dumb.
It would be bearable if persons like those remained in /lit/ and didn't mess up pur fantasy/scifi or,better yet, found another hobby besides writing.

>>44147750
>I'm what people would call a social justice warrior on here.

Then it's the fate you chose.

It's okay to be progressive. It's okay to like earnest metaphors and strong themes in your games. But claiming to be a social justice warrior or, worse still, preaching at and verbally attacking those who disagree with you, as that ironic term implies, has never, ever done anything but hurt the world.

So, I read a little of different drafts, and I still don't see a reason why Hunters (or any other WoD factions) shouldn't kill Beasts on sight. All they do is break shit. There's nothing productive that comes from them.

>>44152388
If you don't see anything wrong with killing people for who they are, you are the problem.

>>44152468
>for who they are
Dangerous sociopaths? Even after vampires feed the victims can continue their lifes as if nothing happened. What Beasts do is just antisocial.

>>44152468
Not that guy, but you do realize scientists are attempting to eradicate mosquitoes as they're a nuisance and contribute essentially nothing to the ecosystem? I don't think the guy is advocating killing them for who they are, moreso killing them for /what/ they are. People didn't go after Jeffrey Dahmer because he had a quirky personality and strange sense of humor, they did it because of what he was.

>>44152468

The only wrong thing I see with killing a mass murderer for being a mass murderer is the lack of due process. But it's a game about supernatural beings, so I'm willing to close an eye on that part.

>>44152501
>>44152505
>>44152526
Except they can't avoid hurting people, it's in their nature.

>>44152611

Then I'm lucky reacting to murderous beasts with violence is in my nature. I can't avoid hurting monsters, so that means I'm fine, right? It's who I am.

Is everyone who likes Beast actually just baiting? Nobody can be this stupid in real life.

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>>44150387

>They act in the best interests of humanity
>But I'm gunna write them so they're JERKS, so they're the villains now

>>44152611
You know they castrate pedophiles in some countries, don't you?

>>44137101
>I'd take playing Changing Breeds over Genius
What kind of masochist are you?

>>44152611
I made the mosquito analogy for a reason, brah. Mosquitoes just exist to be parasites that are terrible for everything. Now our wisemen are finding out ways to get rid of them.

>>44150299

He says that now, but that sure as hell wasn't what he indicated when Beast was first announced.

It's very clear that Beast was always meant to represent marginalized individuals while the Heroes were initially meant to be compared to people who SJWs (not activists, but idiots on Twitter and Tumblr who pretend to fight for social justice while saying they have PTSD and are triggered by everything) consider to be generally "evil" such as MRAs, people who participated in GamerGate, etc. Hence the "not all Heroes" jargon and whatnot.

Beast was certainly meant to appeal to this demographic at least initially, OPP not realizing that most of their playerbase is actually normal human beings, not lunatics who have more radical politics than good sense.

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>>44150733
>>44150860

That sounds utterly asinine.

So it fits Beast perfectly.

Go for it.

>>44135154
is this true or are you reading too much into the game? Not everything is a political platform you know

>>44152801

>"not all Heroes"

Oh, that was great. I still remember when he came out with that line, sure it would get him thundering applause from his community.

>>44152993

There was a LOT of talk during the early days of Beast that couched it in those sorts of terms - Beasts are the oppressed, Heroes are the self-righteous oppressor. The otherkin thing was just a community observation about the design choices that made the splat even less appealing, though.

>>44152683
No that literally straight from the core book, it talks about the difference between hunters and heroes all over.

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>>44152611
>>44152468
Normal human cells obey a phenomenon known as the Hayflick limit; after a certain number of divisions they cannot continue to replicate. Normal cells also obey nearby cell-to-cell surface signalling that mark their suitable space. Also, if the cell becomes infected/damaged/elderly, that normal cell, if it still has enough energy, destroys itself in an efficient manner to minimize collateral damage.

Now a Cancerous cell ignores all those behaviors: it ignores replication limits, ignores volume limitations, ignores death signals from nearby cells, and probably puts drinks on your table without coasters. It's simply acting in its own nature, but in doing so, puts the entire organism at risk.

Now obviously the analogy to humans requires a psychological examination of what it means to be human, but saying that something is 'in its nature' is not an excuse for said individual to threaten the safety of a particular society.

If it's a problem, it must be excised. Like a cancer.

>>44153437
>puts drinks on your table without coasters
That's it. I'm going to join the nearest angry mob in my neighborhood and go remove me some cancer.

Only one question remains; out of Changing Breeds and Beast which would be the most appalling to actually play?

>>44152089
There were multiple generations of Solars during the First Age who were able to create a stable society in spite of the Great Curse.

The problem was that the Solars prior to the Usurpation were both cursed AND inherently spoiled dicks with nothing to strive for.

>>44153615
Changing Breeds, no question.

>>44153615
I dunno man, I don't wanna say Changing Breeds, but from what I read from the FATAL&Friends 'review' of it, some of the breeds can at least be cool.

>>44153615

Depends on your outlook. At a glance, it's probably Changing Breeds by a margin just because of how blatantly retarded and magical realm-y it is. Beast is a clusterfuck with a shitty premise, but its actually got something of a stable concept - you can make an actual chronicle out of it if you really tried. That said, on the other hand, Changing Breed is wacky enough that you can make a joke of it and probably have a lot more fun doing a ridiculous chronicle than anything you managed to pull together with Beast. A Beast chronicle would be an arduous affair where everyone is just rolling their eyes and pointing out how stupid everything is. Wit Changing Breeds, everyone is just immediately aware of how utterly shit everything is from top to bottom, so they can't even begin to take it seriously, so it devolves into a maelstrom of slapstick furry faggotry shenanigans.

So Beast could make an actual WoD game, it'd just be a shitty game that wasn't worth your time when you could be playing just about any other splat. A Changing Breeds game would be so absolutely laughable that it might actually be good for a giggle, if not an actual chronicle.

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>>44152030
>>44150351
>>44147938

Good. Very fucking good. While I had trouble with some of the mechanics I absolutely loved Mage the Awakening.

>>44148388

Except in beast you have no morality stat. At least vampires have Humanity and werewolves have Harmony. Beasts have no such fetters, they're wholly invested into being utterly awful beings of spite and nightmare.

>>44153852
DaveB actually shows up almost every day in the WoD generals and takes feedback/offers advice/answers questions. It's quite nice, actually.

>>44148423

That reminds me, I found a rather telling quote from a Mummy regarding the Beasts.

---
THE VIEW FROM WITHOUT:
MENKHAF, SESHA-HEBSU
I remember your kind, but you seem…different. Unfocused. Hungrier, somehow. I saw you before, but you haven’t always seemed so desperate to feast. What is it that has changed? I think that people — living people — know too much. They have learned too much, and what they have not learned, they can create. I think that, perhaps, they don’t need your lessons anymore. So, of course, you must make yourself a purpose. It is terrible not to have a purpose. It is death.

>>44153974
I remember your books, but you seem…different. Unfocused. Greedier, somehow. I saw you before, but you haven’t always seemed so desperate to make money. What is it that has changed? I think that people — your customers — know too much. They read too much, and what they didn't read, they can create themselves. I think that, perhaps, they don’t need your books anymore. So, of course, you must make yourself a purpose. It is terrible not to have a purpose. It is fatal.

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>>44154028

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>>44154028

So to the guy/guys that have liked beast, have you seen any art you liked? Art is obviously a hit an miss thing, but I've found another thing that makes Beast less desirable to me is a high miss ratio on the art. I think the only pieces of art I've liked is the Makara chick and some old salty fishermen looking fuck.

>>44150336
That's still empowerment. You are being empowered. You're a dick, but you're still empowered.

>>44154981

Ayn Rand was all about empowerment.

>>44148590
Except that the vigil is, implicitly, hopeless. Your candle burns brightly but it burns from both ends. You cannot win against the horrors out there. You are now a victim of your hatred, of your vigil. You can't -not- fight anymore and remain a hunter. Hell, isn't one of the things that happens to a hunter if they fuck up their morality is they'll eat a bullet?

>>44154999
Exactly.

>>44153938
The main problem i see in beast is that in all of the books you are some form of abomination but there is no reason that you cant be moral about it. Vamps can pay for their blood and dont have to kill anyone, mages can make shure they are not casting with mortals around, hunters had the option of doing their job well and ONLY fucking up the supernaturals etc. Beast to me seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. "you are a thing of nightmares BUT you arez teh good guyz" even though your very existance causes pain to humanity. The other games gave you a choice, you eaither lay low, play your cards right and lead a more or less normal life or you dig deaper and may have to do some amoral things

>>44155057
IT might not be pretty, but its pretty FUCKING METAL. Man I hope Hunter 2e is good.

>>44155057
That's what I'm getting at.

Hunters are just as much victims as every other splat in WoD.

They're less obvious about it, especially in their writing, but the point of just about every book is that what you are trying to do is ultimately meaningless. Fuck, the God Machine Chronicle brought this home with a VENGENCE and that was why is was so wonderful as an addition to the setting even if people hated the technognosticism.

Horror is ultimately about being helpless. That is where the horror is based.

Beast did this from what could have potentially been an INCREDIBLY interesting angle. And fucked it to hell by making Beasts basically unkillable.

Beasts really would have been better off as a foe, like the immortals or slashers books, rather than a full on splat. As that elderitch thing in the cracks of the universe, feeding on our nightmares and seeking to promote them, even if it doesn't actually want too.

Basically what >>44155086 is getting at in a way.

The morality of all the various splats is really where the horror IS in a big way. It gives you a really good idea about what you are HELPLESS against more or less.

Vampires have to sate their hunger, but giving into it makes them into something so terrible other vampires will hunt them down for it.

Hunters either eat a bullet or go postal.

I forget what the deal with werewolves are, but if I recall they basically have to help maintain the balance of a slowly dying world and live with the fact they killed their own god.

Changelings will never be able to escape their tormentors, and even risk BECOMING their tormentors.

>>44148358
GARO is basically the lovechild of Super Sentai and WoD and I have a lot of love for it too.

>>44155185


The narrative is always the same. You are not a FULL monster, you have a choice. The horror lies in that you COULD be one, and that the temptation to become one is overpowering, since often to get the MOST out of your splat, you have to become more monstrous (Geist the Sin-Eaters I feel expresses this best in many ways. The more you use Geist powers, the harder you hit your synergy because your Geist literally does not want to be reminded it's dead.)

Not to mention just what the fuck is WRONG with the world. Every single splat confronts that the world of darkness is essentially -broken- in some way. Reality doesn't just suck, but seems to actively be trying to make humanity miserable in the world of darkness.

That they got right in Beast, but they gave you no CHOICE in it.

You don't have a paradigm running from 'don't make life suck for humanity more than you have to' to 'be an incredibly powerful supernatural beast'

They just have two different ways of making life suck for humans, and ungodly cosmic power.

>>44155241
If i can add to this, in most games you have some reason for playing. You want to find out what you are and why you are like this. Later one you want to find out why thouse other guys are trying to blow you the fuck up (and they have a good reason for this). I dont see anything like that in beast. What is my motivation, why am i like that?

>>44148252
Nobody likes this game, no matter their political spectrum. It's that bad.

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I haven't played any WW games since I had a vampire group back in the day. It was allot of fun playing an unabashed anti-hero that uses people as prey. Plus the guy running the group was excellent. We were fighting a Sabbat Cabal in a shadow/political war where the only real moral quandary was that team camarilla believes being a horrible predatory monster is easier if the sheep don't know about it and team sabbat believed that the horrible predatory monsters should rule the world in the forefront. Still one of the best games I ever participated in.

Most of the other white wolf games just seem preachy and about special snowflakes (mage, and I guess now Beasts being the worst offenders.) And I've never played any other white wolf game and I don't really have an interest to. As a game designer myself I feel that allot of other designer's forget that your foremost job should be making a fun and interesting system, not pushing your own agenda.

That being said I've always wanted to try Hunter. The Idea of hunting down all the horrors of the nWoD as just a regular ordinary normal guy is extremely appealing. Plus my nemesis in my vampire game was a human hunter, and was the only thing that even came close to killing me (on 4 different occasions, the only reason I survived on one of them is I sacrificed one my party members to save myself) and this was a Vampire whos achievements included
>killing a werewolf in hand to hand combat
>Diablarizing a Tzimisce sabbat leader, and getting away with it
>tackling a cthulian horror and "killing" it
But just some random old dude with a hat, silver sword, and a fucktonne of traps almost killed me on numerous occasions, I love it!

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>>44155241
I Tried playing a hippie noblebright vampire once. He was a musician that specialized in citar, grew the dankest weed, and only drained the minimum amount of blood he needed to survive, and usually from animals if he could help it. The only time he ever used his crazy hand to hand skills was to defend people from the horrors of the night.
>Most boring fucking character I have ever played.

>>44155795
Having a theme doesn't inherently make a game preachy. Don't be so quick to write something off just because it's not trenchcoat and katanas.

>>44150276

He never said they were good you silly goose. They're PCs. There is a marked difference.

>>44156133
who said anything about trench-coat and katana's? I just don't want to sit at a table with a bunch SJW trying to point out how different and special they are from everyone else. Which seems to be beasts theme.
>Its not like im some libertarian douchebag either, I just don't think that shit belongs at the gaming table.

>>44150488

It still causes nightmares, but they're only soul drestorying if you get a crit success from repeated feedings. You can even budge your horror arround the astral so they don't do this though. Heroes are born rather than made via feeding, however every hero has an ability to track beasts. Exceptional successes on these nightmares 'pings' the hero's tracking senses.

>>44150860

So...a Punisher with the 'life' of "Helpful"?

>>44152098

To an extent, though one equally as atavistic as the beasts themselves. Poor Heroes.

Though fuck yes, high integrity Paladin Hero in HTV.

>>44156229

If your are not a SJW or a libertarian, Beast is really not the game for you.

>>44156229
Vampire's style is trenchcoat and katanas. And I'm not talking about Beast, I'm talking about the rest of the WoD. There's more than five other gamelines you're writing off, brah. For what it sounds like is because they aren't like vampire.

>>44156340
Well I really only had the one vampire group and as afore mentioned the GM was amazing. It wasnt really trenchcoat and katana, but I guess they were the exception? DESU its just hard to find a group that doesn't want to play PF or DnD (whatever .0) add nausea.

>>44156387
Ah, I hear that. But hey, Roll20 just got WoD support, my GM is even considering moving us to it, rather than using IRC like we've been doing.

>>44156420
Eh, I always prefer actually sitting at a table in person. Online RP loses allot of its appeal for me.

>>44156507

I thought the same thing when my group split up and we started playing on Roll20, but now I'm so used to it that live sessions are a pain in the ass. Roll20 and Skype are perfect for me.

>>44156590
To each their own guess. I just find the whole point of PnPRPG was actually being face to face, taking that break to get food, and ya know, actually socializing on a human level. Otherwise why not just play an MMO?

>>44156657

But I'm still actually socializing, just not in person. We speak through Skype, which, for groups who don't have sex during their sessions, is exactly the same as being there to talk in person.

>>44156824
>he doesn't know the joys of neckbeard sex

>>44156824
>for groups who don't have sex during their sessions
What kind of group doesn't have sex? It's like you're are not even real friends!

>>44156824
Wait so your gaming sessions aren't just excuses to have satanist orgies?

>>44153852
Feel free to read the development spoilers, all of which were compiled in this post:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/437565-second-edition-development-blogs

The new Paradox rules, as well as the yantras post (basically mechanical incentive to actually flavor your casting) are particularly interesting.

>>44157002
>>44157088
>>44157232

God damn it, I knew we were forgetting something!

>>44156507
Funny enough, I've sort of lost the ability to really take table games seriously. I can't really immerse myself much in it, so the games at the table feel more like in depth thought experiments and the ones online have more gravity to them. I like both, but if I had to have just one it'd be the online stuff.

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Between Changeling 2e, Beast, CoD, and Exalted 3e, I've pretty much given up on any WW/OP release.

>>44157470
What was wrong with CoD?

Aside from the fact that only like 20% of the content is new.

>>44157470
Whats wrong with Exalted 3e? I know it was in development hell for a long time, but I've heard people are happy with what the finished core book looks like now that it's out.

>>44134662
Welp, White Wolf have officially jumped the shark.

>>44157668

>happy with what the finished core book looks like

Sure, if you're happy about 3D Poser art, typos, egregious formatting errors, and stolen assets in a game with a $600,000 + budget.

It seems like over the last 3 years OP has morphed into a bunch of miserable, delusional assholes.

>>44157809
To be fair, as soon as OPP found out about that, they said they're getting the poser art replaced, and the poser guy was also the plagiarist so he's getting hammered for breaking his contract.

They're also aware of the formatting error and are gonna get that fixed in the final version. It happens.

>>44157872
So when are they replacing the rest of the bad-to-mediocre art in their promised "GROUNDBREAKING AND MOST VISUALLY STUNNING RPG OF ALL TIME"? Or is Holden too busy throwing temper tantrums to bother?

>>44157984
They're doing that now.

>Or is Holden too busy throwing temper tantrums to bother?

?

>>44153615
I've played Beast and it's fun, so I'm gonna go with Beast. The secret to playing Beast is going full monster mash and being caught up in conflicts between different splats.

OPP is a shit-tier company

>>44156329

If you're anyone but a particularly vile, spiteful, and hypocritical SJW, Bast is really not the game for you.

>>44157668

Exalted 3e is okay, I guess. It's way better than Beast. But... for something as hyped as it was, for something that took as long as it did to be released, it wasn't really all that impressive at the end of the day.

It's not godawful or anything, really. In many significant ways, it's a sincere improvement over Exalted's preceding editions. But it also has its own issues that hold it back and make it unfun, even so - ones that don't make a lot of sense. These include martial arts speedbumps and the disappointing craft system. So it's okay, but it's far from perfect, and the way that game was hyped, it was supposed to be the end-all, be-all, something that couldn't be improved upon. And, well, it could use improvement.

And the devteam will hear none of that. They honestly tend to be above average devs, IMO, Morke and Holden specifically, but they are rather arrogant, very set in their ways, and are absolutely certain they know exactly what the game needs and thus what other people want (and if you and many others say you want something different, then they clearly know what you want better than you).

So while Ex3 turned out better than detractors thought it would, it was not as good as its supporters hoped. It's currently meeting a rather lukewarm reception now, and it's hard to tell who there is more of and who is most vocal - people who love it, people who are okay with it, and people who hate it.

>>44158652
Yeah, I think Ex3's big issue was that it retained some legacy problems, while the stuff they *did* change was undeniably good (except maybe Craft).

It's certainly very playable, though, and I firmly belive that it's now enjoyable even if it was divorced from its interesting setting.

Devs are still shit at PR but I'm interested in seeing them continue with the line rather than having them stop.

>>44158652
It's especially hard to tell because Exalted fans have always been some of the saltiest motherfuckers to walk the Earth.

>>44158828
>>44158652
Oh yeah I think I heard about that, don't you have to grind craft or someshit? My friend compared it to crafting in a MMO at one point.

>>44158929
I'd honestly say Craft is the worst part of 3E, but even then it's not /terrible/, just overcomplicated and dull.

The problems people have with Exalted 3E are small, and easily fixed, but people get frustrated because the devs refuse to see those problems as problems.

Overall though, I'd still say it's a good game, just not really a flawless one.

>>44159011
Alright, I guess I should look into reading it, shame I'm not a real big fan of Solars so I'll be waiting on other forms of exalted before I even really play it.

>>44134662
Oh look, it's the edgy otherkin game.

>>44158828

Exalted 3e is definitely in a league far above Beast and, indeed, likely nWoD 2e as a whole. The social influence system in particular is a huge triumph over the absolutely worthless social combat system of 2e, and 3e's implementation of Fate-esque mechanics (Intimacies are quite comparable to Aspects) is definitely superior to GMC's immersion-breaking Conditions and Beats.

I think there are certain unnecessary minutiae that just make life harder, however. For example, the distinction between linguistics and actual literacy, while justified, is one of the game's instances of arbitrary attention to detail which forces players to spend xp on a trifling thing in a lazy attempt to make it more important. I often feel like there's too much shit like that which bogs the game down and makes 2e, a hilariously clunky system, somehow seem freer in some places.

At the same time, I wouldn't say 3e is any more divorced from the setting of Creation than 2e ever could be. Tbh, excluding a few particular things everyone just ignored in 2e, I think they do a pretty decent job of simulating that world in both cases.

If people think Holden is bad at PR now, they've forgotten how awful Morke was way back when. At the very least, Holden was good at getting people hyped for projects. Morke got into inane arguments on the old WW forums about the setting primacy of the Solars and nowadays doesn't do a lot of talking with the community compared to Holden.

Morke also clings to some insane social justice propaganda on his Twitter and Holden RTs all of Morke's shit, but they're nowhere near as bad as, say, David Hill, and the two of them are also far, far better at implementing progressive themes in their game (Exalted has always been comparatively good at this and has never really gotten preachy about it, granted that there's plenty of rape to be had in the first two editions and if Prince Diamond is supposed to appeal to modern trans people, he's fucking awful at it).

>>44159297
>At the same time, I wouldn't say 3e is any more divorced from the setting of Creation than 2e ever could be.

Oh, I'm not arguing that, just that I would unironically enjoy momentum based combat in games other than Exalted too, rather than suffer through it for the setting like I did with tick-combat.

>>44159297
Hill threw a shitfit over Star Wars despite deliberately never watching anything to do with it, didn't he? Sure I remembered reading something like that.

>>44159668

Hill is unfit to design games and has never contributed anything of value to the hobby, basically.

>>44160653
So in short Changeling is going to go to shit and Mage 2e is the only thing to look forward too?

>>44138135
>I never did get the impression playing it my character was an actual demon instead of a robot with identity issues.

That might have to do with being an ephemeral reality-warping robot servitor of an inscrutable self-propagating machine intelligence with delusions of god-hood, as opposed to, you know, being one of the diaboli or one of innumerable malignant entities in the setting that most people would be convinced was a demon. But you already knew that. It even says so in the book: "your character is a robot going through a mid-life crisis." Maybe not verbatim, but it does say that repeatedly.

>>44138135
>The enemy is literally everywhere and everything you do might just be furthering its plans
>lighthearted
u wot m8?

>>44160874
Deviant might also be cool.

>>44160874

And that's only if you're actually fond of Mage, let alone Awakening.

ChroD is pretty disappointing overall.

>>44161584
Woah, who knew that you had to like something to like it. There's nothing offputting about Awakening's content.

>>44161637

You do not understand what I am indicating.

If you have no interest in Mage, then there is nothing there. Just nothing.

Or perhaps you do like Mage: The Ascension, but not Awakening. So still nothing.

So ChroD remains disappointing overall.

>>44161637
He's saying the core GMC edition system is a disappointment.

Which is pretty much true.

>>44161844
>>44161800
But people have responded favorably to the newest additions to Demon, Vampire, Werewolf and Mage more rather than less.

>>44161877
That's more due to the Vampire/Demon/Werewolf/Mage-specific new mechanics than due to the new core system mechanics.

>>44162055
That's still not, "ChroD is pretty disappointing overall." Overall, it's doing pretty well. In some respects it's doing great. In other aspects it's doing poorly. Painting a wide brushstroke over the thousands of pages that have come out is not the wisest of moves.

>>44161877

They have responded well to nDemon, in my experience, with its only detractors having a problem with its aesthetics rather than any actual problem endemic to the splat. The response to the nWoD 2e Core, however, has wildly varied. Plenty of people have panned the new mechanics, even those who were initially excited for them. Nowadays, I see more detractors than supporters.

As to the gamelines attached to them, the responses have also varied, with early releases (especially before the announcement that this was an outright second edition) being more positive than later releases, in general.

Blood and Smoke was certainly well received initially, but after the honeymoon period was over, more and more complaints cropped up, and now the community is more divided. B&S seemed to be an overall improvement, gathering all of the advances in style and mechanics Requiem had made over the years and coalescing it into a more up-to-date product. Rose Bailey certainly was the most qualified dev to take charge. Even so, the game is not as mechanically sound as one would hope given the experience behind it, and no new content has been produced for it in almost two years, given the game expects you to draw from 1e supplements.

Forsaken was never considered particularly great. It had some thematic stand-outs like the Pure, but overall it never reached the popularity that WTA did, likely due to its fluff just not being very compelling by comparison. The Idigam Chronicle did not seem to bring into the fold many more people. That in mind, the communities surrounding Forsaken, at least on the OP forums and RPG.net, seemed to like it well enough.

Awakening 2e isn't even out yet, but people seem pretty hopeful for it, yes. To my knowledge, there hasn't been any big complaints.

(cont)

>>44162511

That all said, Beast is considered a travesty and very few fans of Promethean or Changeling are hopeful for their 2e incarnations. For those games, the response from their playerbases abroad have been largely negative, mostly because the devs seem much more intent on fucking around with the original fluff rather than porting the games wholesale with later books such as Equinox Road taken into deeper consideration in the corebook fluff.

So I would say the nWoD 2e is pretty disappointing overall, yes.

>>44153437

GET IN THE FUCKING BAG

>>44162511
All valid points, but at the same token, my own personal anecdotes in WoD chatrooms shows generally more praises than complaints. Complaints are still present and some are ones you brought up, but still positive feelings seem to be predominate. That said, personally I'm only actively interested in two or three gamelines.

>>44162549
I really do not know why they are so intent with fucking around with two of the most well received splats lore wise.

I mean, okay, Changeling I can see the temptation, the thing is LITERALLY built around the idea of characterizing rape victims (or atleast kidnapping and abuse victims). But overall it handled it in an incredibly tasteful and understanding manner. Better than many games do when handling equally touchy matters.

Fucking with the lore just endangers that, and considering the person fucking with the lore is the same asshat who wrote Beast I have almost no hope for them handling it at all tastefully, and it's probably going to end up being even more fucked up than the whole subtext about trans/homosexual subtext in Beast, which was incredibly insulting.

>>44162707
Different lead writers, brah.

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>>44147714

Because this game runs on Goblins logic.

>>44162760
>not posting superior art version

>>44150517
It's both.

>>44162204
You don't get to decide what another person finds disappointing, anon.

>>44163484
>So in short Changeling is going to go to shit and Mage 2e is the only thing to look forward too?

>And that's only if you're actually fond of Mage, let alone Awakening.

>ChroD is pretty disappointing overall.

This is what I've been referring to.

If people like thingsother than Beast. there's stuff to look forward to. So, you don't get to decide what another person looks forward to, anon.

>>44138435
>I can't imagine why. I just can't see the GM operating anywhere on the scale as the Exarchs, or the Aeons, or the Ascended Archmages, or the True Fae in their realms, or the Principle, or greater Abyssals like Mr Leaves without getting its' tin ass kicked by people who don't have to even pay physics lip service. I've yet to see anything to convince me it can match of those guys going all out.

>The God-Machine Chronicles came out in 2013. Imperial Mysteries came out in 2012.
>"While Alienated could simply reap souls to feed their patrons, this is actually the least efficient method. Founding a religion is challenging, but channels human spiritual power in a more refined, potent fashion. It might also be possible to secretly change the world into an occult engine for a Fallen God: a Mystery Play that returns it to power. The ententes believe at least one such "God Machine" already exists."

The God-Machine was always there.

>>44163925
What if people find all of those disappointing like the shitty Changeling and Promethean updates, or the stupid gender nonsense in Mage? There's plenty of reasons someone who likes the line to be disappointed in it, even if they like multiple games.

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>>44161285
I want to play Kamen: The Ridening, yeah.

>>44163947
What if the person is secretly a horse? I don't really care to argue about what an anonymous poster who has given no information about their likes or dislikes. I just think giving a blanket statement of, "It's all shit" is a useless and misleading statement.

And the pronoun excerpt was from Mummy, not Mage.

>>44138435

>>44138340
>I got really inspired by the core book with its hints at major supernatural stuff,
Which also hinted at the existance of the God-Machine.

World of Darkness Core Rulebook: Introduces the concept in the Voice of the Angel vignette in the setting chapter. Voice of the Angel was regarded as so evocative that the God-Machine ended up being revisited several times.

Mysterious Places: The introductory fiction is an excellent short story that references the message of the God-Machine. Several other books also had introductory fiction tying into the God-Machine; I cited this one specifically because it's my favorite, but several are recollected in the God-Machine Chronicle Anthology.

Tome of the Watchtowers: The Obrimos chapter gives one description of the Oracle of the Golden Key that implies some manner of God-Machine involvement.

Saturnine Night: The final adventure of the episodic adventure path progressing through the 1e Promethean: the Created supplements centers around the setpiece of a vast nuclear God-Machine discovered beneath Detroit.

Hunter: the Vigil: You can see the seeds of Rose teasing out the ideas of Demon: the Descent in the presentation of greater demons. The sample demon, Mr. White, dreams of returning to some state of perfect clockwork reality, and shares the compulsion towards punishment of sin that's exhibited by Mr. Blue in Midnight Roads, another proto-demon.

The Danse Macabre: The additional covenants presented in Danse Macabre include the Holy Engineers, a cult of visionary Kindred working within the mythology of the Voice of the Angel story.

Imperial Mysteries: Multiple allusions are made to ways in which the God-Machine might interact with or pertain to the Realms Supernal and its exiled gods.

>>44164005
It was both (the pronoun stuff was in Mage20 specifically), but I don't mind as long as the rest of the book is decent.

>>44164028
Special mention: Rites of Spring contains, among its contradictory tales of the origins of the True Fae, a story about dispassionate angels of fate gone rogue that, while I'm pretty sure it was not written as a reference to the God-Machine, can easily be reinterpreted into the cosmology of Demon.

Likewise, while it doesn't go explicit, Asylum lent its opening fiction to the God-Machine Chronicle Fiction Anthology, and its sample setting of Bishopsgate Psychiatric Hospital includes a couple notable instances of the number four in its architecture and history, as well as the journals of a former director who became obsessed with the Book of Revelation after being mysteriously lobotomized (a snippet from which makes references to the Moon belonging to God alone) and a former patient who was kidnapped and implanted with devices that allowed him to be controlled by Shaver-esque "Deros" who sent him to murder another former Bishopsgate director in prison,* to say nothing of the "vast complex web of flesh" inside the walls:

>>44164059
Ah, I didn't know. I don't have much of an interest in Ascension. Was it tucked into the Life Sphere section or something?

>>44164005
My point is just that if somebody states that their opinion is that it's disappointing, you can't say "Nuh uh" because it's legitimate for them to feel that way.

>>44164151
Sorry if you felt that way, I was just trying to offer another view for the person who asked the question. Didn't want to offend any sensibilities.

>>44137261

As someone who's only a little involved in WoD games: What's going on with CTL 2e? My one experience with changeling was pretty fun.

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>>44157809
>It seems like over the last 3 years OP has morphed into a bunch of miserable, delusional assholes.
>Morphed

>>44164119
...yes.

>>44164201
Most of it is speculation so far. Most likely valid speculation, but it's still just that. David Hill, an infamously shoddy writer with a shitty personality is leading up the rewrite and while he's had some work in the past that was enjoyable, his track record isn't exactly stellar. Of the changes so far confirmed, seemings are much more straightjacketed and kiths are much more loose. A few good things, but ultimately a lot of red flags that are making a lot of fans uneasy. But since Hill is a pigheaded buffoon who cannot accept criticsm on any level, what you see is what you'll get and there most likely won't be any hasty editing to make people happier if there's anything particularly egregious.

tl;dr: Broken Clock that's right twice a day is at the helm of the game.

>>44164224
I had a feeling. Was it the same exact one as Mummy or did they try to be more tasteful?

>>44164005
>I just think giving a blanket statement of, "It's all shit" is a useless and misleading statement.

Well, yes, which is why I was saying it was disappointing, not that it's all shit.

All of the earlier content for GMC and the Chronicle books was hyped to hell and back and most everyone was excited to see new nWoD content. OPP hadn't fucked up yet. So people liked Blood and Smoke - there wasn't too much changed, it just felt like Requiem distilled, it seemed like a natural progression. It was wildly successful. But time passed. People became more familiar with the system. They looked past the shiny new game and saw it wasn't so perfect, that it had problems.

Idigam was an improvement, but, being Forsaken, only excelled so far. It appealed to its community, so one supposes that's good enough. Now we come to Beast, which is just bad. Promethean and Changeling fans have by and large lost hope for good second edition supplements.

This leaves Mage. The original context of the conversation was "Mage 2e is the only thing to look forward to." That's only if you like Mage as a splat; if you don't, then there's nothing to look forward to. nWoD 2e has not greatly improved on its predecessor. Hence, it is a disappointment.

>And the pronoun excerpt was from Mummy, not Mage.

To be clear, the pronoun excerpt was from Mortal Remains and just happened to regard a Mummy. More "stupid gender shit" was in Mage20, where they somehow manage to come off as offensive even though they're trying so stupidly hard to be inclusive.

>>44164391
I'm not sure about your circles, but in mine I never saw ANY hyping for the COFD games. Just the anniversary 20th. And I really only think the excitement was about the funds potentially allowing OP to do even more supplements as only a few of the people actually play Classic.

And there's still more to look forward to because supplements are a thing. If you're only looking forward to new gameline editions? Sure, there's more of an issue there, but bluebooks and game specific supplements are always fun.

>>44164476

Up until Mage20, my circles were quite pleased as a whole with WoD20 as well. V20 and W20 were superb, joyfully designed to appeal to a variety of people who already have their own conception of these settings. We're still eagerly awaiting Wraith20 because we trust in based Richard Dansky. Wraith is game that I've seen make an adult cry from the tragedy of it before, so I'm quite hopeful.

Regarding M20, it's weird in that all the -information- is there, it's the presentation that's off. A lot of the magical cold war feeling is dead. Blame it on the tone, blame it on the times, but the M20 Technocracy just doesn't seem oppressive. Going by M20 alone I have a real hard time coming up with why the Traditions and the Technocracy would come to violence. And I don't know about you guys, but the magic section doesn't really sell me on it as a usable system. Offloading half the magic system into a PDF add on wasn't all that wise either, but I digress.

>>44164304

Besides using certain eye-rolling jargon you'd expect of social justice nutjobs, which sets off alarms but isn't necessarily indicative they're saying something dumb, their tone is much less outright condescending to -the reader- specifically. They do, however, disparagingly refer to "cultural conservatives," which sounds like it's kicking a hornet's nest, but I'm not one of those, so I don't really care. What gets me, however, is that this entire sidebar is about "The Other." All of the bizarrely overbearing inclusivity BS is in this blurb. So basically, even though they're going so far out of their way to stress how tolerant they are, they're calling people of different races, sexualities, et al. "the Other" completely without irony.

What's actually annoying to me about this blurb isn't so much their presence, but that it talks like OPP is ALLOWING us to play a black character, or a trans character, or a woman, as if we needed their permission to play who we wanted to play. As if it's not normal.

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>>44164304

>>44165016
>Yes, that's an intentional them

I actually had a giggle. Jesus, the majority of your playerbase can speak English. We're aware of what the pronoun THEY means, holy shit.

>>44165016

I was actually thinking of "Roleplaying the Other" on page 258 when I typed out the second half of >>44164943

M20 is apparently just full of this shit.

Why not make one about zombies or liches next

>>44166375
Because Mark Rein•Hagen is alredy making/made a zombie game.

>>44166696
In the WoD line?

Thread seems to be autosaging, so I just wanted to say how nice it was with this thread and the other one to have a wod thread that wasn't a general. Thanks guys.