Why Horus?

>>43965672
Horus was the only one who could get all those shitheads to work together.

Sanguinius was a close second, but probably too self deprecating and humble for it.

>>43965672
it rhymes with heresy

>>43965672
because muh achievements in battle

>>43965684
All of this. Angron, Mortarion, Perturabo,, Russ, the Khan, none of them would've given a fuck what Guilliman told them. At least they acknowledge and respect Horus when he gives an order.

>>43965684
This^

Because he was the first found and known the best by the emperor, the most expansive, the most successful, and importantly, by being the first found, he would have met every primarch as they were found in time, so like the emperor there was a unifying aspect. While every other primarch was found he was a trusted figure to both the Emperor and his brothers. Even those that disliked him still had a begrudging respect for him and his accomplishments. This is a guy that saved the Emperor's life in the first real moment that any weakness in the emperor had been shown (the ulanor Ork Warboss).

Anyone else as war master would have led to divisions as rivalries were common among the primarchs. However, no one truly had a beef with Horus and most primarchs understood that his command was expected and fell in line.

Horus DID understand that Sang would have been the better warmaster, but even Sang could not draw the primarchs together like Horus could, THAT is what the emperor needed him to do.

>>43968351
Might have been better if he couldnt keep them together.
Heresy and stuff you know?

>>43968585
Yea, but chaos is a hell of a drug.
Before he got corrupted, Horus was a pretty bro guy and was very much like the Emperor in his devotion to saving humans, advancing the Imperium and other things.

Honestly, I blame Lorgar for him being corrupted. The bitch needed go and play with some other gods because daddy burned down his church.

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>>43968648
Just look at that smirk. He fucking looks like Good Guy Greg in most depictions.

>>43968684
OH MY GOD [spoilers]What a big guy, for you[/spoilers]

>>43965672
Because Horus was good at everything. He could not best his brothers at their specialty, but he could best them at anything else. And Horus understood that, he knew that he was not a mountain and that each of his brothers had strengths and weaknesses and what those were. And for this he had the universal respect of his brothers.

He was also capable of delegating tasks to others without being blinded by pride or trying to force a situation to conform to his preferences. He made certain the job was done in the best way possible.

>>43965672
Horus was above average in almost everything, he was strong, charismatic, good tactician, he was a 7/10 or more across the board (except in loyalty)

>>43965710
You mean alliterates with you imbecile.

>>43965672
Because his pauldrons are so fucking huge that they're built together and encompass most of his head as well. I mean his pauldrons are larger that the other guys' armours.

>>43969745
>He could not best his brothers at their specialty, but he could best them at anything else
Except for Alpharius, who's specialty was besting people at their specialty (though only for maximum troll points, not because it was a good idea).

>>43973646
That's kinda funny. Maybe that's why he died to Guilliman. Guilliman's a mediocre fighter, and his specialty is tactician stuff. So maybe Alpharius tops him in tactician stuff, but face to face it was all about being a fighter and Roboute beat him using his own mediocre fighting skills.

>>43973734
He died to Guilliman because he forced Guilliman to abandon the Codex Astartes and make an Alpharius style attack. So from a certain point of view he gained Alpharius' high ground.

Supposedly. The Ultramarines claim it never happened.

>>43968684
holly hell that is a huge wolf. did russ ever get upset at horus for using wolf pelts as fashion?

>>43965672
Actually the Lion is noted as being the finest tactician, Guilliman and the best organisers and empire builders. Probably why when the war starts and they're cut off he just thinks 'fuck it I've got my own'.

>>43973992
>pretending to not steer this thread that direction again

bait.jpg

Anyone tried figuring out what each primarch is matched up to the 18 runes of Odin yet?

>>43973831
it may have been a fabrication by an inquisitor who was working with the alpha legion

>>43973831
>abandon the Codex Astartes

Apparently you don't know that Guilliman doesn't treat the codex like 40k does. He always adds new shit to it. He got whooped by Corax at space chess three times then added Corax's sneak attacks to his codex. What makes you think "abandoning the codex" isn't just Guilliman doing what he always does?

He's the fucking anime move-stealer guy of 40k.

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>>43976057
To be fair this was old Guilliman who was convinced his big book of war was the hottest shit ever and victory was certain if you rigidly stuck to its guidelines.

As opposed to modern Guilliman whose book is so big awesome you can be completely flexible and impossible to trap while being rigidly by the book.

>>43976519

And the Alpha Legion never did compare to the Ultramarines.

Largest legion, most worlds conquered right behind Luna Wolves, best logistics, best diplomats, best world quality, least losses during the war, best wartime efficiency, best empire, best reputation, etc.

Guilliman wasn't wrong, he was just an asshole.

>>43965684
I love to think of Horus as less a great warrior and a peerless tactical and more as a guy with the endless patience needed to deal with his shit head brothers.

"Russ, where in the fuck did you get a wolf? How did you even get it on the ship? What do you mean, you're going to go let it loose in Lion's room? No you aren't, he's got a lot of very expensive books in there. Now you kn...Angron, knock that shit off. Angron, stop killing crew members, they didn't do anything to you. And how is "I've got nails in my head" any excuse for doing what you just did?"

"Oh fuck, I think I just saw Khan go by with another fucking horse, you two stay here and don't do any stupid shit while I'm gone."

>>43965672
Horus was the most popular, he got along with everyone except Corax but he may have been tainted by chaos at that time

>>43976806
>Horus was the most popular
Sanguinius was the most popular

Horus was just the one most popular with the emperor.

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>>43976771
Kind of casts his fall to Chaos in another light. He just got too sick of the BS and lost it.

>>43976771
I want this. Please write this for me anon

>>43976831
debatable, Horus was the only one able to relate to spergs like the Lion, Mortarion and Perterabo

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>>43976519
On the other hand, you had the Imperial Fists' Index Astartes in which "Codex doctrine" encouraged flexibility and initiative.

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>>43976771
>And how is "I've got nails in my head" any excuse for doing what you just did?"

This is every Angronfag post in a nutshell.

I just love imaging this as a comic strip with Angron going BUT I'VE GOT NAAAAAILS IN MY HEAAAAD

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>>43965672
>I don't get

1. The number of things beyond your understanding is literally infinite.
2. Your feels won't change the story.
3. ???
4. Horus was given a field promotion by a superior officer.

tl;dr: He ain' gotta splain shit.

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>>43976687
If you have to pull out "I have more trophies" against your little brother you've already lost the argument.

It's right up there with "muh chillenz" in the list of shitty arguments.

>>43977511

If you've got nothing to show for your work, you're not really crusading.

>>43965672
>Dorn
>Most Loyal

Fucker, Lion is the most Loyal. Sure, half the Dark Angels fell but Lion was the most Loyal of all the Primarchs.

>>43977595

Why do all the Lionfags keep saying this? Is there something I'm missing about Lion? Saying he's the most loyal is like saying Khan is the most anything (besides mysterious).

>>43977595
>Lion is the most Loyal
>Not on Terra
>Not defending the Emperor
>Not the Emperor's Champion
>Not His personal bodyguard
>Cant keep his legion together and loyal

Yeah ok bro.

>>43977605
As most of the Primarch Lore now comes from the Horus Heresy Novels, there's a particular scene where Kurze tries to break Lion's spirit by telling him that his Legion will fall and he will forever be regarded as a Traitor. Lion's response is to stab Kurze through the chest and tell him that he doesn't care what anyone else may think, Loyalty is its own Reward.

Incidentally, Lion was actually good friends with Khan. Go figure.

>>43965710
>Horus
>heresy
say those two aloud

>>43977632

Yeah, because assigning the best Tactician of the Primarchs to bodyguard duty is a GREAT idea. Dorn, with his defense obsession, is perfect for the role.

>>43977678

How does that make him "the most loyal"? That just makes him loyal. In fact, it lowers his loyalty because he is loyal simply to be loyal, rather than being ACTUALLY loyal. Real loyalty is found from characters like Garro.

>>43977632
Loyalty has nothing to do with any of that except maybe bodyguarding.

I'm not arguing Dorn isn't Loyal. He's just not as Loyal as Lion.

>>43977746

If you're going to use Kurze shit as argument for loyalty how is Vulkan not way more loyal than Lion.

>>43977539
Alpharius and Omegon were found near the end of the Great Crusade, having only a handful of decades as opposed to the centuries that Roboute had. It was a low blow that Roboute pulled out when Alpharius said his book was trash. See >>43976519

>>43977746
>>43977723

Where was the Lion when the Emperor needed him the most? Thats right, fixing his fucked up legion and giving guns to the traitor.

>>43977735
>it lowers his loyalty because he is loyal simply to be loyal, rather than being ACTUALLY loyal

You're going to have to explain that in a Way that makes some sense.

>>43977763
>telling someone that's a part of a conversation to see the conversation

Thanks genius. Very Alpha Legion of you.

>>43977760
Vulkan was Loyal to Humanity over the Emperor.

>>43977784

Lion's definition of loyalty isn't actual valuable loyalty. It's just obsession with the concept of loyalty at best, and blind loyalty at worst.

You're literally arguing that someone who says "I don't care" when they are told something that should make them stop and think, or even change their minds. That kind of "loyalty" is far less valuable than someone who stops, considers, weighs things, and still comes to the conclusion to stay on the same side.

>>43977764
He was following orders, like any Loyal Son should be.

>>43977735
Your argument makes no sense at all. I am currently reading Flight of the Eisenstein and Garro all but says the EXACT same thing.

>>43977797
First of all, what the Fuck is real Loyalty then? Loyalty isn't staying with someone for logical reasons. In fact, I can argue that stopping to consider anything would be less Loyal than ignoring whatever arguments your enemy puts forward.

Lion swore Loyalty to the Emperor. That is a fact, and it will never change.

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>>43965672
My question whenever I see that picture is assuming pic related is Dorn then what is that weapon he is wielding and why the fuck didn't FW give that to him instead of a fucking unwieldy chainsword.

>>43977797
>stops, considers, weighs things, and still comes to the conclusion to stay on the same side.

So, in order to be more Loyal, they have to consider abandoning their Loyalty? That's what it sounds like you're saying.

>>43977830

Loyalty without reason is why people worship Chaos.

>>43977851

Blind loyalty is never the penultimate form of loyalty. A loyalty that wavers but never fails is a far greater example of a loyal follower than someone who blindly and stubbornly fixates on a single thing and will never stray from that path. He is reliable, he is dependable, but he is not nearly as loyal as the former.

There is a reason Lion is an autist.

>Lion is the most loyal
>half his fucking geneseed turned traitor
>but muh BL

You guys are morons.

>>43977875
>A loyalty that wavers but never fails is a far greater example of a loyal follower than someone who blindly and stubbornly fixates on a single thing and will never stray from that path. He is reliable, he is dependable, but he is not nearly as loyal as the former.

I asked you to explain your reasoning, not restate your point. Why is a wavering Loyalty better than Blind Loyalty?

And the argument I put forth is that Lion is the most Loyal because his Loyalty was never in doubt.

>>43977889
His geneseed, not him shit for brains.

Takes more than one scene in a BL book to claim someone is the most X in whatever, especially when they don't do any of that shit 99.9% of the rest of the time.

You don't call little Timmy the most badass character in Rambo Ball Crushers: The Expendabling just because he stood up to a bank robber in the first five minutes of the movie.

>>43977797

No true dark angel fallacy

>>43977875
>Loyalty without reason is why people worship Chaos.

Pretty sure that's the exact opposite reason for why people worship Chaos.

>>43977932

Geneseed and primarchs are so fucking intertwined literally every time one is mentioned so is the other 40 is literally muh primarchjizz muh primarchjizz you're a fucking retard wow how can DAfags/BLfags be this stupid.

>>43977946
>Khornates are reasonable
>duped fallen ones have thought things through
>Nurglites chose Chaos through logic instead of trying to escape pain

Pretty sure it's not. Try harder.

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>>43977797
There's just so many things wrong with this post you must be arguing for the sake of arguing..

>Lion's definition of loyalty isn't actual valuable loyalty.
He doesn't define it. He only states that he doesn't need to be pat on the head for doing what he feels is the right thing.

>It's just obsession with the concept of loyalty at best, and blind loyalty at worst.
You're venturing pretty far into implying land there, fucko. The Lion had faults and they're all clearly written, however his loyalty to the Emperor is real and unquestioned. It's why he, along with Russ was also stuffed off to the far corners of the galaxy by Horus before he started the Heresy.

>You're literally arguing that someone who says "I don't care" when they are told something that should make them stop and think, or even change their minds.
This just grammatically makes no sense, but even after deciphering it looks like you're trying to say that the Lion should stop and think about Kurze trying to psych him out with his crappy inherit divination, and by not pausing mid-fight to consider what everyone thinks about him and his legion he's somehow not actually loyal? Like... What?

>All this arguing

Well, at least we can agree that Dorn is the worst Loyalist.

>>43977963
People follow Chaos because it gives them what they want you idiot. That's not blind Loyalty.

>>43977949
Except for the fact geneseed doesn't turn them into the same person as their Primarch asswipe.

>>43976687
>Largest legion
He had a 200-year head-start over Alpharius
>most worlds conquered right behind Luna Wolves
Absolute verifiable bullshit, Dark Angels were next after the Lunar Wolves, followed by Space Wolves and next there are arguments between Emperor's Children and several others, only after that do Ultramarines even show up in the picture.
>best logistics
Actually no, Alhparius' was better, since it was less prone to disruption and the Alpha Legion could MacGyver a new one whenever they had to. Ultramarines simply had the biggest supply, which makes sense since they had the biggest legion.
>best diplomats
Horus was canonically the best diplomat, it is stated that he *always* won through diplomacy where it was possible to do so.
>best world quality
He had a 500-planet head-start over Alpharius
>least losses during the war
AHAHAHAHA, maybe in percentage terms but not in absolute terms (he lost more Ultramarines in 12 hours than there ever were Astartes in most legions)
>best wartime efficiency
Only when the war wasn't in the Ultramar system. When Angron ravished and pillaged the efficiency of Ultramar went to complete shit.
>best empire
He was the only one allowed to have an empire, with Big E razing Lorgar's attempt and the Imperial Fists being forced to redeploy their entire legion to Sol.
>best reputation
We only have Roboute's own word about that.

>>43977963
None of those are Blind Loyalty fucknugget.

Khornates want blood and carnage and fighting. Slaaneshis want pleasure. Tzeentchites want knowledge and power. Nurglites want love.

It's not Blind Loyalty.

>>43977965
Worst Loyalist Primarch sure, but his boys turned out alright. Ya know, apart from that Painglove thing, but as far as Legion defects go, that and not being able to spit acid is pretty fucking stellar.

Worst Loyalist Legion is the Space Wolves. Prove me wrong. Hint: It's an objective opinion, so it shouldn't be hard to do.

>>43978053
>Legion Defects

As I recall, there are only two or three Chapters with no defects and they're all former Legions. Ultras are one. I think Iron Hands and Dark Angels were the other two.

>>43977834
Not really sure; it might be that Dorn is most commonly seen - at least while crusading - in his "Marine+" style gear of a big bolter and a big chainsword, and his Lightning Claw + something (maybe a sword like Emps) is just for special occasions.

I seem to recall that we'll be getting updated profiles for the primarchs later in the heresy, so maybe Dorn will get his act together by then and not be so shit on the table

>>43965672
Man, this "Loyalty" question is really starting to become a big deal in these threads, huh?

>>43977605
The Emperor saying "you ever doubted him?" about the Lino to Malcador, the thing with Curze >>43977678 mentions, and him being completely incorruptible by chaos despite the world he was on (which probably helped the DA stationed there fall, now I think about it) and being offered power by chaos and rejecting it.

It's somewhat notable, because Sanginius, being the ever-noble sonavabitch that he was and with issues with being pragmatic, WAS at one point willing to sacrifice himself to chaos (not that he knew, because Emp's policy, but still) to save his legion (an apothecary took the hit instead, foiling that chaotic plan, which was of course a trap)
Sanginius was still loyal, and died for your sins, but he wasn't quite as incorruptible as the Lion.

So that's where Lionfags are coming from

>>43978053
>Space Wolves

Anon...I agree. Is it me or does everyone kind gloss over the problems with Space Wolves
1. Despite having obvious mutations (canine teeth, manes, canine traits) these seem to be ignored yet Vulkan and his sons get shit on for their obvious mutations
2. Known for causing problems with other legions and being problematic to work with yet never called up on it.
3. Attacked Angron and World Eaters yet no follow up on either side
4. Hinted that they killed the forgotten primarchs but never commented on by other legions.
5. Got tricked by Horus leading to an entire legion going traitor yet never called out on it.

>>43978103
Ultramarines and Dark Angels yes. Grey Knights are the third.

>>43978118
There we go. Thank you.

>>43978103
I wasn't just meaning defects with their implants, but the Betcher's Gland is probably the least useful. I honestly can't even think of a situation where it's ever been used by a Marine.

The Ultras, Dark Angels and Iron Hands all have their own "quirks" which could be considered defects like the Imperial Fists and their Pain Glove fetish.

>>43978157
Acid Spit is a trademark fighting style of the Iron Snakes.

Looking back on it, I think only the Raven Guard don't have any issues, besides being chronically below-strength.

>>43978197
>I think only the Raven Guard don't have any issues

They have the opposite of Salamanders, their skin is eternally pale and black eyes.

>>43978122
As the anon you replied to, I do have to regretfully argue a few points in favor of the Wolves.

>3. Attacked Angron and World Eaters yet no follow up on either side.
Don't forget he started a fight with the Lion because he was buttfrustrated over superior tactics.
>4. Hinted that they killed the forgotten primarchs but never commented on by other legions.
It's hinted that Russ killed the Primarchs, the Legions themselves were folded into the other Legions, primarily the Ultramarines, which helped them become so large. But afterwards, the Emperor forbid speaking of the other Primarchs or their Legions. Apparently the consequences were so terrifying that even the Traitor Primarchs still didn't talk about that shit.

>5. Got tricked by Horus leading to an entire legion going traitor yet never called out on it.
Everybody really got tricked by Horus, and as far as everyone else is concerned, the last orders the Emperor gave regarding the 1kSons was to essentially arrest Magnus for Sorcery. In the grand scheme of the Heresy, having Horus trick you by changing the orders to "Kill" from "Capture" really isn't a big stretch.

>>43977999

That is what it does though. A smaller, less good version, but in 40k geneseed is like a genetic soul.

>>43978122
What's their Legion strength?

>>43978023
>followed by Space Wolves and next there are arguments between Emperor's Children and several others, only after that do Ultramarines even show up in the picture

That's completely wrong unless BL retconned it. Luna Wolves was 1 and 2 and 3 were Ultras/DA.

>Actually no, Alhparius' was better, since it was less prone to disruption and the Alpha Legion could MacGyver a new one whenever they had to. Ultramarines simply had the biggest supply, which makes sense since they had the biggest legion.

Are you retarded? Guilliman's ENTIRE THING IS LOGISTICS. MAGNUS IS PSYKERS AND GUILLIMAN IS LOGISTICS

Not even going to read the rest of your retarded post.

>>43978218
Not seeing how the first one is a point for them. Russ seems to have very poor impulse control.

>>43978223
It doesn't overwrite their personality. It gives them traits of the personality of their Primarch, but they're still their own person.

Also, Chaos Corruption. They didn't have Lion's insane resistance to Chaos.

>>43978023
>Dark Angels were next after the Lunar Wolves, followed by Space Wolves
I know I've seen this, but I can't remember where - anyone got the pic?

Though there is a minor point, I recall that quote saying that those legions, in that order, have the most "victories", where in other sources the Ultras are said to have brought more worlds into the Imperium.

These don't actually have to be conflicting statements: even just getting their primarch got the Ultras 9 multi-world systems through the interstellar empire Macragge was a part of, and that can hardly be said to have been a victory, they just joined the Imperium without fighting.
That, and some victories won't have bought worlds, they'll have ended threats

>>43978214
Well, I meant behavior wise.

>>43978297

I get what you mean. I wouldn't ever call a space marine their own person though.

>>43978023
>>43978298

Ultramarines brought the most worlds into the Imperium.

Luna Wolves had the most Conquests.

Dark Angels had the second most Conquests.

However, it is noted that Horus was with the Luna Wolves almost from the beginning of the Crusade which gave him a big advantage. Lion was the Tenth Primarch found and he led his Legion to more victories to the point where they had almost caught up to the Luna Wolves when the Heresy happened.

>>43978338
They're very much their own person, as a variety of media has shown.

>>43978375
*more victories than all the other Legions

Forgot a part.

>>43978375
It's also noted that Horus would often have overall command of forces including other legions - often when mentoring a newly found primarch.
This was very important for the early Emperor's Children, for example, and led to Corax being perhaps the only primarch to actively dislike him

So not every win was really "his", though his tally is still amazing even with both caveats

I always thought that Luna Wolves was a really dumb name for a Legion.

Space Wolves isn't much better.

Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, etc. All those are fine really.

It's not even the Wolf part of the names, it's the adjective that comes before.

So what if Alpharius was found last? Even if you scale down the other legions' feats to the same period of years as Alpharius's active time frame, the Alpha Legion accomplished less than the greatest legions, because by nature they perform by a slower and less blatant methodology. It's like planting a few strong trees in an orchard instead of just mass farming tomatoes or other small crops.

And why do you guys act like Guilliman was wrong? Yeah, he's a faggot for trying to push his shit on other Primarchs, but you can't say his methods didn't get results when his legion was one of the most successful and Horus's biggest fear. He got suckerpunched the hardest at Calth? Really? That's the best argument you can come up with? The fact that his legion fought off multiple enemy legions on their own while being blindsided AND adapted to anti-marine tactics AND won and stayed intact enough to return to Terra and threaten Horus speaks volumes. Try replacing the Ultramarines' position with the Word Bearers or World Eaters or some other shitty legion and watch them get wiped the fuck out as soon as multiple legions suckerpunch them.

>>43978512
>Muh Guilliman

>>43978512
>Adapting

See, this bugs me. Guilliman's thing is that he plans. He doesn't adapt, he just makes sure to take Every contingency into account. If he had Anti-Marine Protocols already in place, it'd make perfect sense.

>>43978540
>Muh Alpharius
>Muh Lion

You can't honestly say that isn't even more retarded than any non-existent Ultrafagging you're trying to strawman.

Don't see how you can't have Russ has the most loyal. For as much as you guys shit on him even you have to admit the idea of him turning on the Emperor is preposterous.

>>43978574

He didn't, but his marines did. The red sergeant helm was originally a red mark of censure to shame marines who dared to study anti-marine tactics. Then they were the ones turned to during Calth for advice, so the tradition became red = sergeants who lead their squad.

Guilliman does adapt, but it's always post-defeat.

>>43978596
>The red sergeant helm was originally a red mark of censure to shame marines who dared to study anti-marine tactics

That's fucking retarded to shame marines who did that. There have been cases of Astartes on Astartes fighting before, even if you don't take the two missing primarchs out of the equation. Just proves how fucking dumb Gulliman is to not prepare for that. Ultrafags don't get to ever shit on Jonson or Russ ever again because you know they had plans for dealing with their brother legions.

>>43978587
I can easily see him falling to Khorne.

>>43978579
If someone posts something that's just "muh [blank]" it's generally a good idea to ignore them entirely.

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>>43965672
Just a question: Do any of the girls here find Horus attractive? I met one that had the hots for Sanguinus.

>>43978686
I'm a guy and I have the hots for Sanguinius.

Horus does nothing for me.

Lion is handsome in an aristocratic way.

Fulgrim is attractive, but he's just TOO pretty for my tastes.

>>43978653
He likes to fight but he doesn't strike me as blood thirsty or insane. Idk I just can't see that happening.

>>43978686
Does she find Mark Strong attractive as well?

>>43978686
My girlfriend knows a lot about warhammer because her son and I play it from time to time and she thinks Vulkan is the most attractive.

>>43978763
He has poor impulse control, a temper and loves fighting. It's pretty easy to see him become a Daemon Prince of Khorne.

>>43973734
>>43973831
That incident never happened. Its old lore and therefore not really relevant since it comes from back in the day when there was only one AL Primarch and their shtick was gaining the other legions respect by showing off.

>>43978781
>girlfriend likes the big black primarch

KEKED
U
C
K
E
D

>>43978800
You literally just described every primarch

>>43978781
As soon as you posted I knew some asshole was going to post >>43978844

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>>43978844
woah buddy, I see nothing get's past you.

>>43977678
>Incidentally, Lion was actually good friends with Khan. Go figure.

He actually wasn't. Its stated in both books, "Unremembered Empire" and "Scars" that only Horus was close to the Khan.

>>43978845
Off the top of my head Corax, Jonson, Alpharius and Omegon, Lorgar, Magnus, and Guilliman don't match all of that criteria.

>>43978023
>He had a 200-year head-start over Alpharius

Since almost nothing is known about the AL, we do know nothing about their strength at all. They could have been the smallest, but they also could have been one of the biggest Legions.

>He had a 500-planet head-start over Alpharius

Again, nothing known about the homeworld of the AL. The old IA text speaks of a star system of which Alpharius was the leader but that might be a ruse or simply retconned already.

>>best reputation
We have the Lions word when they met on Macragge where he states that he suspected Roboute to try and install himself as a new Emperor. A great reputation indeed.

>>43978103
Salamanders have no real defects either. They turn into Niggers, but thats nowhere near as bad as turn into a Werewolf or a Vampire.

>>43978859
Huh, weird. I could have sworn I read something about the Primarch relations.

>>43978122
>5. Got tricked by Horus leading to an entire legion going traitor yet never called out on it.

And never said sorry for it either.

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>>43978512
>Even if you scale down the other legions' feats to the same period of years as Alpharius's active time frame, the Alpha Legion accomplished less than the greatest legions, because by nature they perform by a slower and less blatant methodology.
Absolute and total bullshit.

Roboute says "give me command of you legion and it'll take a couple of months"
Alpharius solos them in a week instead.
"Stop wasting everyone's time!"
Whatever, Rawbutt.

The Alpha Legion specialized in orthogonal warfare, setting up advantages years ahead of them actually being required and operating in multiple theaters simultaneously and independently... The Ultramarines depended upon a rigid hierarchy and a methodical, pondering style of warfare in which one victory came after another until they had achieved total victory but the Alpha Legion pursues every advantage concurrently.

While Roboute calculates the exact perfect Jenga brick to move one-by-one, Alpharius is sawing off the legs of the table.

>>43978943
It's still a mutation so it counts. They get a lot of flak for it too.

What are the White Scars missing anyways?

>>43978964
>While Roboute calculates the exact perfect Jenga brick to move one-by-one, Alpharius is sawing off the legs of the table.

That seems like a bad idea.

>>43978248
>Guilliman's ENTIRE THING IS LOGISTICS

No, his thing is politics. Iron Warriors are the logistic masterminds.

>>43978859
Khan and Magnus got along well.

>>43978800
He was also way too loyal to his father to turn to Khorne.

>>43978943
it's been stated that the Salamanders have the slowest reactions and reflexes of the Astartes. Space Wolf initiates may turn into wulfen but the vast majority survive and they have better senses than any other chapter/legion

>>43978977
Perturabo was a Warrior and Engineer.

And Guilliman's whole thing is Logistics and Planning.

>>43978781
Do you both watch interracial kekold porn together?

>>43979004
Guilliman's thing is getting BTFO in every one on one fight he's ever fought.

>>43978951
I haven't read all HH stories and novels, but those 2 were my recent reads, (finished UE just yesterday) and they said it explicitly. If there are some remarks in other books let me know.

>>43979011
See >>43978858

>>43979022
I'm not even a Guilliman fan, I'm just giving credit where it's due.

He's a Mediocre Fighter with delusions of grandeur but an amazing Diplomat, Politician and Commander.

>>43979004
Have you read Angel Exterminatus? That book is full of praise for the Iron Warrior logistics.
They excel at sieges because of their logistical thinking.

Guilliman's thing is politics. Thats why he brought together 500 worlds. He even said so himself: He planned that after the Crusade, the Ultramarines should become politicians to lead and rule planets.
He isn't bad at logistics (no primarch really is, except the Khan maybe) but he is not the best at it, because that is Perturabo.

>>43979053
Pretty sure Angron is bad at Logistics.

Khan would have to be good at Logistics in order to be a competent General.

>>43979022
>>43979035
>
He's a Mediocre Fighter with delusions of grandeur but an amazing Diplomat, Politician and Commander.

Exactly.

There is that AL Killsquad in Unremembered Empire that almost kills him and the Marine had the blade already at his throat (just like Kor Phaeron, who isn't even a real marine) and then later in the book, in the same room, Curze fights a squad of Space Wolves and he squats them aside like flies. And Curze isn't really known for being a top tier fighter either.

>>43979065
Read "Scars". The "strong female character" in that book is a old female Logistics officer send to the White Scars because they lack organization and logistics.

But you`re right about Angron, totally forgot about him.

So was Perterabo have any friends among the Primarchs? Even smelly ass Morty was buddy buddy with Horus.

>>43979078
Weird. Khan conquered his world at the head of an army after all.

Oh wait, he wouldn't have much experience with technology. Right, that makes sense

>>43978800
So did Khan, and Jonson among other loyalists

>>43979068
Curze is written incredibly fucking inconsistently. Especially when he beats the shit out of Vulkan of all people.

>>43978943

Are you kidding? Turning black is one of the worst things that could happen to a human.

>>43978512
>and stayed intact enough to return to Terra and threaten Horus
Dude, he didn't even try to head to Terra before it was all over, in fact he assumed at Calth that there was no way to get there in time (correct, due to the Ruinstorm) and that the Emperor had already lost (incorrect), hence Imperium Secundus.

If anyone else pulled that Imperium Secundus shit, they'd be considered a Horus-tier traitor instantly.

They were - by far - the biggest legion, and on their own home turf. I'd expect nothing less of any legion in their position to be able to do at least as good as they did, in fact even as I think about it I reckon almost any of them (sorry, Curze) could have done better.

>Horus's biggest fear
Duh, we keep coming back to them being twice the size of the next-biggest legion.

>>43979120
Compared to Russ? Not really.

>>43979102
Leading an army doesn't mean that the army is well fed and all.

>>43979101

I'm pretty sure no-one liked him. Then again he didn't try to make himself liked. Guilliman really hated that many of those warriors he knew best in the legion pre-Primarch were decimated.

>>43979135
Based on Mongols remember? Their horses provided nearly everything.

>>43979126
I know Vulkan is the most physically strong primarch, but is he considered a good fighter?

>>43979068
Kind of odd how good they made him on the table considering that.

>>43978859
Khan seems well-respected and by several primarchs (The Lion and Guilliman both admire his skill, he and Magnus got on vis-a-vis psykers, Mortarion thought he'd join the tratior cause if he asked), but actually having good relations appears to be a wholly different thing

>>43979126
To be fair, Vulkan was weakened (from Istvaan and from month of torture and dying/regenerating hundreds of times) and he was literally insane at that point.

>>43978859
Supposedly, they respected one another.

That's anecdotal though.

>>43979131
>They were - by far - the biggest legion

Until Calth, true.

>>43979131
On Imperium Secundus

Do Ultrafags really think that Rowboat thought that up spur of the moment? No fucking way. Rowboat had the plans for Imperium Secundus laid out and waiting, proof that he is pretty fucking traitorous even if he does have good intentions.

>>43979140
And now let Dschingis Khan lead a modern tank division. See the problem? Suddenly the food doesn't comes from butchered mounts.

>>43979101

He was on friendly terms with Magnus and both spend alot of time exploring old dungeons on Terra, looking for knowledge, technology (Perturabo) and books (Magnus)

>>43979065
>Pretty sure Angron is bad at Logistics.
Angron is apparently bad at everything that requires thought beyond the level of impulse.

We'll never know how good he might have been but for the 'nails.

Still, though "bad", he's still super-human in even this respect. Breaking the siege of Sarum was a masterpiece and required logistical thinking (at least as short-term as the second-wave reinforcement).

>>43979159

If the Emperor was dead as Guilliman thought he was, what else should he have done? Just given up? He was planning for a long war, that if Horus Won he would contest the Galaxy with him until the end.

>>43979146
Well, the Khan being respected by others doesn't mean its the other way around as well. Both sides are needed for Friendship and the Khan was a Loner. (Not really an Autist like Perturabo, but he simply wanted to be alone and hunt)

>>43979153
>Until Calth, true.
That IS what we're talking about.

>>43979173
Khan supposedly got along with Magnus. He had respect for Lion and Russ too.

>>43979173
I don't think anyone respected Khan as a primarch or a leader but rather as a warrior. That's why he isn't counted among Guilliman's dauntless few despite Rowboat always speaking highly of him.

>>43979177
>>43979131

In fact, this is another thing that contradicts with older fluff. Calth and the Shadow Crusade really decimated the Ultramarines below half of their strength but the old fluff (when there was no Calth and all that) said the whole different chapters came from the Ultramarines because they were the most numberous which isn't true at the end of the HH as it is written in newer texts.

>>43979153
If not still true after Calth it again becomes true after the Siege of Terra, so at absolute most there's only a couple of years where the Ultras weren't the biggest

>>43979188
Magnus is true. (Apparently Magus was on good terms with everyone but Angron, Mortarion and Russ)

Where does the info about the Lion come from?

>>43979194
A standard Legion in 40K has 10,000 Marines and the Ultramarines were over strength. Even after the Calth, he'd probably be able to split them into 4 Chapters.

>>43979195

I doubt it. Dark Angels should be the largest Legion since they had no horrible losses during the heresy and they didn't fought on terra so they remained at their strength while others had huge losses there (Scars, BA, IF)

>>43979195
Well the second biggest were the Word Bearers and they were fucking each other up. Then for a short while it probably passed to the Dark Angels but we know how that went when a fuck ton of them went rogue.

No one really knows the size of the Space Wolves but it's safe to assume it's smaller than most especially after Prospero.

>>43979214
We know that 1 were UM and 2 were WB.
We also know that the UM had higher losses than the WB (who only send their trash to Calth anyway) while fucking up smaller departments of the Ultras with their real legion together with the WE.

>>43979211
There were over 100k Ultramarines and Word Bearers.

>>43979211
Recent fluff has them well over 200000.

>>43979212
Forgetting about what happened with Luthor on Caliban? Also they did fight some huge battle in the crusade that depleted their strength, fluff says it saved the northern part of the imperium or something like that.

>>43979194
Maybe not, they don't divide until after they drive the traitor legions into the Eye of Terra and rip up all of their existing worlds and garrisons (the Scouring), which takes several decades.

The Ultramarines still have their recruitment drive on maximum while legions like the Dark Angels don't even have a planet anymore. And you get legions like the Imperial Fists doing suicidal shit that wipes out the majority of their already-wiped-out legion.

So yeah, the Ultras were probably back to being several times the size of any remaining legion again.

>>43979212
Dark Angels lost at least half their Legion right after the Heresy ended and "split" into "Chapters" after Guilliman ordered it. They still operate as a cohesive whole in 40K and are well above Legion Strength.

>>43979211

quote from lexicanum:

The approximate sizes of a few of the Legions at the start of the Heresy have been given in various sources:
Ultramarines - 250,000[8]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7c][Note 3]
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000[16a]
World Eaters - 150,000[7d]
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000[6][10]
Blood Angels - 120,000[10]
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000[15a]
Iron Hands - 113,000[15b]
Emperor's Children - 110,000[7f]
Imperial Fists - 100,000[11][Note 1]
Death Guard - 95,000[7e]
Alpha Legion - Conflicting accounts ranging from 90,000 to 180,000[16b]
Salamanders - 89,000[15c]
Raven Guard - 80,000[9]
Thousand Sons - 10,000[12][Note 2]

>>43979224
I admit i haven't read the DA books yet, but i thought there was only a smaller part of the Legion back on Caliban since it would make no sense to leave a large part at home for garrison duty.

>>43979231
Well, that's EXTREMELY different from what I remember.

>>43979223
Iron Warriors and World Eaters had to be huge legions as well especially considering the amount of casualties they were absorbing in each battle due to their tactics and styles.

>>43979203
I can't find the page. It's mentioned on some other forums though

>>439792
They were according to the numbers above.
The Death Guard should have been extremely big as well though, but they are among the smallest.

>>43979190
>That's why he isn't counted among Guilliman's dauntless few despite Rowboat always speaking highly of him.
I thought that was more because Guilliman (or anyone else, really) wasn't sure where his loyalties lay, and that he was an extremely independent commander

>>43979238
Luther halted all deployment of new marines from Caliban and started hording them there around the start of the HH. Totally unrelated the times just happened to just match up. It was a pretty large amount of marines.

>>43979231
>Before the Word Bearers invasion to Boros Gate it is mentioned the Black Legion's strength is unparalleled and that their rank their ranks outnumbered the Word Bearers by almost ten to one. If at that point the Word Bearers kept the ranks at the size of 100,000 space marines it means the Black Legion have vastly increased their numbers to around 1,000,000 space marines.

Also from that page. I think its save to assume that nobody at GW keeps exact track of the size and the losses of specific legions or anything.
They are as many as they need to be in each novel and they have as many losses as they need to have to let it look dramatic.

>>43979190
If that was the case then Russ wouldn't be one of them.

The Dauntless Few were named such because Guilliman said he could accomplish anything with them under his command. Khan was far too independent to acquiesce to Guilliman's command.

>>43979260
Guilliman made his Dauntless Few long before Khan's loyalty would ever be called into question. As for being independent, Russ was highly independent and it didn't bother Guilliman.

>>43979271
>nobody at GW keeps exact track of the size and the losses
>many losses as they need to have to let it look dramatic
They outright admitted that this was the case during the End Times after everyone pointed out how impossible most of Khaine was.

>>43979290

Russ would obey orders without question if they came from a legitimate source. hence why he didn't hesitate then Horus told him to burn Prospero. The Khan would never simply follow an order given to him if he didn't like the look of it.

>>43979297
Well, a shame really since its alot of fun looking at numbers and stuff.

>>43979305
Russ obeyed Horus because he was the appointed warmaster and he was the only Primarch discovered before he was. Guilliman himself views the order of Primarch discovery as a form of rank.

>>43979297
I remember reading Deus Encarmine almost 10 years ago. It features the blood angels and in that book literally thousands of them die. After the heresy, when their strength is supposed to be 1000.
Even with 14 i had to facepalm at that.

>>43979328
Yeah I think they really fucked up by making chapter sizes at only 1000 because like you said in all the books you have a fuck ton of marines dying

>>43973734
>maybe that's why he killed Guilliman and took his place to gain a foothold in the loyalist side, his death was never confirmed and "Guilliman" never really spoke of his fight

ftfy

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>>43979365
Grey Knights are alpha legion

>>43979372
This bullshit again... please stop it. There is not a single source mentioned.

>>43979372
Isn't it literally said in the GK Codex that their Geneseed comes directly from the Emperor?

Read the books, the Emperor and Horus share their insane ambition for a galactic empire. None of the other primarchs shared that.
Combine that with his natural charisma, good track record and being the first son it makes perfect sense.

>every primarch shares a trait with the Emperor, Horus shared his ambition. This is said by Horus in one of the first 3 HH books

>>43979398
It is, but there is this single shitposter simply ignoring it while going
>hurr omegon

>>43979432
Stop being such an autist. There was a literal thread up earlier about the Emperor just being a hologram made by Malcador and you're choosing to get butthurt over this?

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>>43978686
Girl here, I actually really do like horus actually, his expression when he was still loyal just screamed 'good guy greg' and i love that kinda thing
>>43968648
Altho my personal fav at the moment is the spiritual liege, altho he needs light brown hair, blonde isn't really doing it for me

>>43979469
Meant >>43968648 sorry

>>43965672
The Emperor needed a conqueror and Horus was simply unmatched. Of all the Primarch's specialisations and preferences, Horus was pure offence and attack, aggressive and processive and unrelenting.

Horus's warriors may have been, as the Night Lords and others are theorised, to have been a temporary measure not intended to preside over a secure human galaxy.

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Thinkin of doin a conversion of the lion with a stormcast, are there any books that specify what his height might actually be, cuz most art i can find he is about stormcast size compaired to his marines

>>43965672
Cuz nepotism

>>43978823
Alpharius/Omegon has been around in GW's internal fluff bible since the early 90's according to Dan Abnett, it was revealed to him by Merrett.

The authors who worked with GW say they hoard lots of background stuff.

>For us authors, though, this kind of thing could be baffling, and not always derivable even from the gaming manuals. But it wasn't arbitrary; we writers learned that the Nottingham priesthood, led by Bryan Ansell himself, guarded their lore carefully. I'd already had editorial comments on my stories from David, but now more comments came from Andy Jones, and also from Ansell. Some of these comments were to do with obscure details of the game world, but others were about the story structure itself, which you would think would have been David's [the editor's] domain.

>>43978966
Nothing, their gene seed has no issues as far as I know

>>43979582

A large part of the legion tried to join Horus during the Heresy. This didn't go unnoticed, Guilliman/Emperor/Malcador would have made sure Inquisition and the High Lords would know.

>>43979673
>This didn't go unnoticed, Guilliman/Emperor/Malcador would have made sure Inquisition and the High Lords would know.

How would they notice? Scars were a seperate legion, they were in orbit above Prospero and there were no witnesses.

>>43979696

Did they kill all their human retainers? Further, Malcador/Emperor can read minds, and would Khan even try to keep a secret from them or robuto.

>>43974288

fuck off Olaf.

>>43979743
The Khan never meet the Sigilite nor the Emperor after that incident.

>>43979871

Both of them can send psychic projections, and that is assuming he kept everything from Guilliman and that no one talked to the Inquisition.

>>43965672
Because he was the first one the emperor reunited and personal train by emp the longest

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>GET READY
>GET HYPE

>ULTIMATE PRIMARCHS POWER RANKS:

>TOP TIER:

HORUS
GUIRLYMAN
The best on both sides.

>ACTUALLY NOT STUPID TIER:

ALPHOMEGON.
IRON HANDS OF THE IRON HANDS.
BLOODGUY.
MONGOLOID.

>TEENAGE ANXIETY TIER:

KEKHUNTER
CAW CAW CAW
FULGRIM

>MENTALLY CHALLENGED / AUTIST TIER:

WOLF WOLF YIFF YIFF
MORTARION
ANGRY-ON
PERTURBADO
DORN

>DID EVERYTHING WRONG TIER:

LORGAR
MAGNUS
LION

>NIGGER TIER:
VULKAN

>>43979944
>Girlyman
>over Sanguinius

>>43979957
>dead
though I do question putting alpharius in ACTUALLY NOT STUPID TIER

dude was like "Alien prophecies? Fuck yes I'll believe that"

>>43965672
He found Horus first. That's pretty much it.

By extension, this meant he had the most accomplishments racked up, and that he knew all the other primarchs for as long as the emperor.

Some of the primarchs were proud and contrary, some were logical and obedient, and Horus just made the most sense. The angry primarchs could all pretty much say "okay so he's kind of our big brother and he has been kicking ass for longer than we have" and the calm ones could go "well he's the one daddy knows best because he was found first so it makes sense he gets to be top dog"

Logic and planning is all good but you need force of personality and legitimate accomplishments to keep all the hotheaded primarchs as well as the thinkers in line and Horus had it all.

>>43979254
The Iron Warriors are noted to have had highly adaptable geneseed and low implant rejection rates, while the World Eaters favoured accelerated and streamlined recruitment from numerous feral worlds, using Angron's genetic material to speed up and stabilise the process

It's not that surprising they they were able to keep up their numbers, despite being the only legions to exceed the Death Guard in casualties proportionate to their strength during their conquests

>>43979964
The only reason Sang died was because he fought an army of daemons for like, a week straight, and then he had to fight powered-up Horus. If he had stayed cowering on his homeworld like a certain blue Primarch, he'd still be alive.

>>43979991
But he died and Girlyman kept the Imperium together so thats why he's best.

Also, sang was psyker mutant scum who trashed his whole legion. He's not shit tier like Kurze or Angron cause he wasn't braindead but he pretty much rekt his own legion with his flaws.

>>43979944
>DID EVERYTHING WRONG TIER:
>LION

Title of Warmaster was literally a two-horse race betweem Horus and Sanguinius.
He only made one glaringly obvious mistake, which was giving a titan legion to Pert. While that was a FUCKHUEG mistake, it is still the only one I can think of.

>>43979231
I remember someone saying somewhere that actually the Alpha Legion would be as numerous as the Smurfs, but of course, they would hide their numbers so nobody knew exactly how many they were.

Also: I am Alpharius.

>>43980004
I don't think you understand the scale of Sang's contributions. If he hadn't put the chink in Horus' armor, Emps wouldn't have been able to beat him after being mortally wounded. No Emps, no nothing.

>>43980009
>quotes Lion
>names Sanguinus.
>tells a cool stoy about Lion

nigga u alright?

>>43980009
>>43980022
>Horus and Sanguinius

I meant Horus and the Lion, holy shit.

>>43980019
The only reason why Emps was thrown into the golden toilet was because he lowered his defense when he thought Horus had repented.

Sanguinus had the clasic tragic but useless death so they could set up how batshit crazy Horus was killing his fav brother.

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>>43979944
>>43979944
>>43979944

checked

also pretty accurate senpai.

>>43980050
Yeah, but Emps was able to defeat Horus in his dying moments because of the chink Sanguinus put in his armor. That, and Ollanius Pius.

>>43980019
>taking stories tainted with the smell of the redactivist at face value
In the original, there's no chinks. Just wholesome white american males.

It was a mind-blast anyways, not some kind of gun. The state of Horus' armor was irrelevant.

>>43980071
But wouldn't Primarch armor have like, Psychic Hoods and Iron Halos and shit?

>In the original, there's no chinks. Just wholesome white american males.
u cheeky fuck

>>43980071
kek'ed

>>43980077
I don't think trinkets will save your mortal soul from the omnipotent God-Emperor. That seems sort of over the top.

>>43980077
>But wouldn't Primarch armor have like, Psychic Hoods
Why would they?

>Iron Halos
physical force field ain't gonna do anything against a mind blast

>>43980090
>Horus crushed the Emperor's windpipe, severed the tendons of his wrists, broke most of his ribs, plucked out his left eye, and set his hair alight. As if this weren't enough, Horus lifted the Emperor high above his head and brought him down upon his knee, crushing the Emperor's spine. Further punishing his father by ripping one of his arms from its sockets

Emps was in a pretty rough state. Source is Lexicanum btw.

So how big where the primarchs? Vulkan and Magnus were both apparently fucking massive, with Magnus being 15 feet tall and Vulkan something slightly less but beefier, while Angron was a 9 foot angry midget compared to his brothers. Is there concrete information given anywhere?

>>43980114
I don't get why the primarch that is supposed to tand for knowledge and shit is insanely huge while a more martial primarch like Angron is a manlet.

>>43980103
Fucking shit.

>>43980114
They used to be marine-sized

then the fans got a hold of them and started writing for black library. They range from 17 feet to 38 feet. Magnus is now taller than a small apartment building.

>>43980092
>Why would they?
I would assume to protect themselves from psychic attacks. And in the art, Horus has a whole bunch of cables and shit coming out of his head an into his armor, which looks a lot like a Psychic Hood.

>>43980127
Magnus was heavily mutated presumably to showcase being the psyker/exposed to the warp more regularly, while i think the writers were just having a giggle about an angry midget, which is honestly hilarious to meet in person. Possibly less hilarious if he's almost double your height and wielding a chainsaw

>>43980127
>Fucking shit.
Like, bullshit? Or 'Oh shit, the Emperor was fucked'?

>>43980114
>Angron confirmed to be an angry manlet who couldn't get pussy

At least we can all agree, Lemon Yiff is the worst

>>43980149
Like "Oh bananas, E-Money just got stomped!"

>>43980163
Okay, carry on.

>>43980114
This is basically just what I said in the last 30K general.

There's no concrete information, although presumably with some cutting and repositioning we could scale the existing primarch models to those of a 7' normal marine.

>>43980135
I thought they were always large. Is there proof that their increased size originates in fanwork?

Pure headcanon:

Magnus - 15', can swell larger with psychic power
Vulkan - 13'
Leman Russ, Ferrus Manus - 12'
Perturabo, Horus, Mortarion - 11
Lion, Khan, Dorn, Sang, Guilli, Corax - 10' 6"
Fulgrim, Kurze, Alpharius - 10'
Lorgar - 9' 6"
Angron - 9'

>>43979144
Fought the Emperor to a standstill.

>>43979239
Thank Black Library

>>43976771
Need more of this.

>>43980019
That is very specifically the story as the Blood Angels tell it. It's widely believed, but the only ones who'd know for sure, died, unless Dorn, Abaddon, or Fabius Bile could tell from looking at Horus's corpse (since they're the only ones who saw Horus's body between his fight with Sanguinius and the destruction of Horus's body).

Random demons, Emperor's Children, and Black Legion might also have seen Horus's body at some point.

>>43980300
Do you doubt the Blood Angels you fucking heretic?

>>43980224
When?
I thought the beat-me-or-else-join-me thing for Vulkan was a series of competitions, with the final task being a drake/salamander-hunt?

I know Ferrus duelled him to (roughly) a standstill though

>>43980311
pray to your corpse emperor, foolish weakling unfit to stand before his forebears

>>43980333
Kharn, I know it's you. Just because the Blood Angels are better at ripping and tearing doesn't mean you're useless.

>>43978943
>a Vampire.
Let me guess you think Blood Angels suck blood out. They don't. That's Chaos pleb tier. They scrape and lick.

>>43980050

No, Emperor did not lower his defences, he just got fucked up because he could not go all out on Horus until he killed that Custode/Imperial Fist terminator.

Emperor also knew he would get fucked up after losing his webway and says as much in Outcast Dead. Chaos for its part knew Horus would die, Abaddon was always meant to be the true Warmaster to finish the job later.

>>43981003
>killed that Custode/Imperial Fist terminator.
Do you deny the truth that is Saint Pius, anon?

>>43981038

St. Pius is just an inspirational story, set during the assault on imperial palace. If you speak of Oll the Perpetual, we don't know what he did yet.

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>>43981003
>not Ollanius Pius

>>43965672
If he only went with the Lion there would of been no Heresy. Yeah Luther was a whiny bitch, but the Lion raised himself fighting chaos spawn for his childhood and remained untainted and couldn't be turned. Dude was autistic as fuck, but no one would of been better at Warmaster than him, and he would have to rely on his brothers for help with diplomacy shit, so there is a level of dependency there and equality.

Also, he acknowledges that the primarchs are unnatural and knows how wrong his own existence is.

>>43976057
Plus there was a short story were Roboute tells off one of his officers for being too rigid, essentially telling them that flexibility and initiative are still required...pretty much as a sad foreshadowing of the ultramarines of the future.

>>43965672
Speaking of, what was Horus's backstory and how did the Emperor find him?

We know about literally everyone else, except to an extent Alpharius, but what was Horus before he was found, and how was he convinced to join Big E?

>>43965710
>it rhymes with heresy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxU2eqZtYmc

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>>43981086
> just an inspirational story

>>43981733
He fell in a miner moon where all the people were slaves. He was bald since the beginning cause China's industry labour conditions.
Like every other tough Primarch, he revolted with "his people" and killed the bad guys to become a inspiring leader and was found by the Emperino shortly after.

>>43981733
We're not all that sure, the most likely thing is that he lands on Cthonia and rises to be one of the most powerful leaders there, but it's pretty shrouded in mystery

>>43978157

Night Lords used it. Jago Sevatarion spit his way through the steel wall of his first holding cell when the DA's captured him and the other Atramentar aboard the Invincible Reason.

And Talos of the Night Lords spit and melted M'Shen's face off when he was killing her after she had killed Curze.

>>43978157
Ultras have no quirks.
Their gene-seed is pure.

>>43978124

Red Scorpions. Then again the RSs might be Emperor's Children remnants. The Death Eagles definitely are.

Then throw in the later version Minotaurs...

>>43978429

"Cottonbalers" is a dumb name for a regiment too, but ask the 7th Infantry how they got it. Same way as the Luna Wolves- something happened during a battle and the name fucking stuck.

>>43979469

My wife's on the Konrad Curze bandwagon.

>>43978429
Luna Wolves sounds great IMO.

All the "Sons of..." or "Gorillon Sons" sound meh.

>>43979398

Yeah. Which is why the Emperor's Gift is Asperger's Syndrome and they can't deal with other people or other Astartes because they can't understand them and get confused.

Same reason Emps is a shitty father.

>>43982656
They are faggots

>>43982911
Marines don't have sex.

>>43979890

Not to mention the fact the Scars fought in the defense of Terra. I am sure the Khan met Malcador in the course of that.

It's funny how everyone thinks Alph and Rowboat are the two faces of a coin, when they're actually pretty similar.

Both are master minds who understand warfare better than other brothers. Rowboat aproaches the problem with a methodical solution meanwhile Alph goes more sneaky/shaddy. But in the end its just a matter of operation. To reach victory they both turn the variables in their favour while primarchs like Angron or Morty send wave after wave of crazy fucks to stomp the enemy line.

Also, the legion's doctrine. Both Ultras and Alpha have a strong sense of legion coordination. It's not like the White Scars or the Nightlords that seam to be no more than warbands. Ultras have the Codex and Alpha have the "I'm Alpharius" thing and they all stick together to that idea becoming an unstoppable task force.

Everytime someone brings up the "Dorn Heresy" or whatever parallel universe where Legions are switched in the Heresy I picture the alpha as the guys who would take the smurfs position cause I really see them coordinating to hold a vast sector of the galaxy on their own.

>>43978429
Space Wolves is the worst name. All the other names sound like they could be any kind of army, military unit, faction, legion, nation or whatever, but Space Wolves is exclusive to an army that battles a significant portion of the time in space or travels between planets.

Sometimes when I write epithets for the Primarchs, I include "The X" among them where X is their chapter's name in singular with some tweaks (eg/ "Mortarion, Guardian of Death", "Fulgrim, Imperial Prince"). For Leman Russ I call him "The Wolf of Fenris", and frankly I think that works better as a Legion and chapter name that Space Wolves.

Bonus point: Forgeworld changed Space Sharks to Charcharadons, so they basically agree with me too.

>>43978781
Really? The square-jawed blaring red-eyed MSPaint-blackskinned monster?

>>43978845
Lion, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Khan, Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Lorgar, Vulkan, Corax and Alphy all largely to entirely disagree with that.

>>43983214
>Lion "McCheapshot" El'Johnson
>Lorgar "Galactic Temper Tantrum" Aurelian
>"Lucky Lotto" Pertrabo
>Magnus

>No poor impulse control.

>>43979944
>>ACTUALLY NOT STUPID TIER:
>IRON HANDS OF THE IRON HANDS.

Ferrus-Charge head on towards the enemy to get beheaded-manus?

>>43979991
>If he had stayed cowering on his homeworld like a certain blue Primarch, he'd still be alive.

And then, the certain blue Primarch managed to get killed (or better, got his throat cut... again) by Fulgrim.

What is it with Girlyman that he gets his throat slit that often?

>>43980127
They had a look to a random gym and saw that fit fighter types are apparently always manlets, so they made russ and angron midgets.

>>43980187
Alpharius was smallest if i recall it correctly.
In Unremembered Empire, Kurze is bigger than Lion and Roboute.

>>43979126
m8, Vulkan beat the absolute ever loving shit out Kurze in Unremembered Empire. If it wasn't for the bullshit Cabal, he'd have absolutely murdered that edgy fuck - and that was without the use of his mind.

>>43982231
That is Corax

>>43982306
From what we know about Cthonia, it was a planet of huge cities filled with several gangs. So, since he didn't went the Nighthaunter-way, he probably was some kind of charismatic underworld cartell mobster boss and rose to power that way.

>>43982656
Their primarch sucked at combat.

>>43982903
Wasn't that the gift the big E gave to almost all his sons?

>>43983174

Well, per Abnett, "Only fools call us that", it's the Vlka Fenryka if we are being formal, or Wolves of Fenris.

And Russ's epithet is generally "The Executioner" or "The Wolf King".

But you had Wolves of the Moon, Wolves of Fenris, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands... and a depressing lack of lions, tigers, jaguars, leopards, or any other sort of felinoid predators. Not saying they were lazy at GW, but they seemed to fall into a rut.

>>43983720
>Well, per Abnett, "Only fools call us that", it's the Vlka Fenryka if we are being formal, or Wolves of Fenris.

That part of characterization i actually liked alot in those SW HH novels.

>>43983623

Well, it depends. The Khan understands some people very well, he just doesn't like them. Just as well, he's the war-hawk, the wide-rider. Solitude or the company of a chosen few is his thing.

Russ was a king and kind of a bro-tier one.

Guillman for all his other failings was the only one with a real mother and father home life. That certainly makes him the most human of the Primarchs in ways.

Well, unless Alpharius has a wife and three kids somewhere, which is a level of plot twist I am sure someone has thought of.

The Lion was a weirdo, but a dedicated one.

Mort, Lorgar, and Pert were definitely all nuts.

>>43983761

There was a lot to like about Prospero Burns as a novel, and the carry on of those threads through Scars and The Wolf King.

Abnett worked a little of it into Unremembered Empire. God, if only he had written the scene where Guillman dined with the Sixth Legion watch pack. He talked about mjod the next morning- can you imagine Guillman half in the bag on that stuff?

>>43983770
>Russ was a king and kind of a bro-tier one.

Not really.

>>43976687
>Guilliman wasn't wrong, he was just an asshole.
kek, no truer words have been spoken about rowboat girlyman

>>43979004
>>43979053
Gentlemen, gentlemen, Peter Abbot and Rambo Girlyman are BOTH specialists in logistics. There's lots of double specialisations amid the Primarchs and this is one of the more subtle ones. The difference is that Pete is completely mechanically minded, thus explaining his expertise in manufacture and siege warfare but the brutal waste of his command, while Rambo uses a mix of mechanical and social thinking, which explains his politic control and elegant hierarchy.

We can all agree that Leman Russ sucks at logistics.

>>43983808
I like Abnetts writing and his books are a pleasure to read compared to other BL writers, but his version of the Space wolves is still retarded.
>Hurr we are not barbarians, its just an act
>behave like biggest barbarian savages ever

>>43983418
Lion got frustrated by the social nature of his brawl with Russ. Russ could percieve the back-and-forth banter nature of a friendly duel, Lion couldn't and went for the knock-out when Russ was resting. Mild autism, not impulse control.

Lorgar's entire world had been destroyed. Lorgar depends on faith in a higher power - with such a faith strong and bolstered he's tranquility incarnate, without he's mad despair.

Perturabo couldn't act impulsively to save his life. He's the stiffest, most repressed piece of cast iron in the galaxy.

Magnus got a bit giddy with the sorceries and the knowledges at times. This does not overlap with temper or violence.

>>43983120

Everyone in /tg/ secretly loves Rawbutt because, deep inside us, we all know he was THEBEST.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

>>43984437
No, a place in Egypt that got turned into a city was Thebes'd.

>>43979231

>Thousand Sons
>10,000 dudes

COME
ON

>>43984437
But he wasn't. He lost all his fights and survived only because of plot armor.

>>43984306
>Perturabo couldn't act impulsively to save his life. He's the stiffest, most repressed piece of cast iron in the galaxy.

Not true at all. He had perhaps the worst temper of all. Look what he did to his homeworld of Olympia.

>>43983874
How the fuck was he not bro tier?

>>43984253

The Wolves have a tier system The Blood Claws are basically Fenrisian barbarians with the Astartes upgrades.

If they live long, and learn things OTHER than how to cut threads and split skulls, they become Grey Hunters.

The survivors of those, who might not be as spry as they used to be, get to hang out at the support by fire point with the heavy weapons systems and lay down big booms.

It's the ones who learn and progress who become the rank structure. Huscarls (Wolf Guard), jarls (Wolf Lords), etc. Like when Bjorn, by then a pack leader, was running down that hall in "Wolf King", internally scornful of the Wolves' dismissal of void warfare, saying "We must become all things to all wars."

We learn that Russ actually offered to abandon Fenris, saying the Sixth could never get big enough with the population-constrained Fenris as a homeworld. The Emperor insisted he keep it as a base. How much of that ties into the Sixth's hinky ass geneseed, we don't know. My question is that if the Sixth's geneseed requires the Canis Helix and works off Fenrisian DNA work done by the early settlers of the planet, how the shit did the original legion form on Terra?

Magnus and the Custodes saw Russ as playing a role- the cadences of an educated man's speech under an affected accent. Constanin Valdor called him out on it. "My lord, your need to constantly play the barbarian king..."

So while most of the unit is manned by barbarians who are content to live and die as such, the thinking is done by the smarter sort. "You know we fight smart. We don't charge in howling even if it looks like we do. We gather impeccable combat intelligence and we use it."

>>43984593
The same thing he did to his own legion, an act of exacting calculation except for a crucial void on all factors moral and emotional? Perturabo bombed the place quickly on account of efficiency, not because he couldn't hold back.

>>43984902
>cut threads
?

>>43978053
>what is Dorn's Darkness

>>43978964
Gulliman was bitching at Alpharius that while he did indeed take over planets with little Marine casualties, it normally took them obscene amounts of time and left the planet in ruins. Which was the direct opposite of what the Emperor wanted. To quickly unite humanity under a single banner, with each planet boosting the strength of the Imperium. Alpharius gave him a slow supply of planets that had to be helped and rebuilt anew.

>>43984997
No, Pert completely snapped and rekt his own planet. When he finally started thinking logically the horror of what he did sunk in and he knew he was lost.

>>43985020
That's what Fenresians call it when they kill someone. Read Prospero Burns its a really well done book and does a great job of portraying the Space Viking side of the Space Wolves.

>>43980187
Alpharius is canonically the shortest primarch at 7', same as his marines. This is how he can pull off the "I am Alpharius" shtick so well as well as blend in with the populace easier than other Space Marines.

>>43978859
>HH books.

Instantly disregarded Until the subject matter is directly discussed.

Ambition. Horus is the emperors ambition given physical form. To conquer the galaxy you need an almost boundless ambition, otherwise you stop when you have unified humanity or destroyed most opponents or some other arbitrary point. Bound up in all that is the pride and arrogance to take you there and make you be capable of overthrowing your father at the thought of him giving you a limited role where you can't match your ambitions and by moving away from the war the emperor signalled that to Horus.

>>43977797
>Lion's Loyalty isn't actually Valuable Loyalty.

>The Primarch with literally his main fault being a crippling inability to handle the idea of being Unloyal.

>>43979203
One of the Dark Angel Codex's I believe.

White Scars and Dark Angels as chapters get along because of it I think.

>>43981733
>>43983583
This. He was a gangster as a teenager, but his planet was close enough to Terra that Emps was able to get reports of a strange primarch-like young man within a few years of the Primarchs being scattered to the winds. That's why he was the first to be found.

Fans also always seem to forget that Horus also intentionally spoke in a Brooklyn/Chicago mobster accent, to seem closer to the common people.

>>43979493
Lion wasn't one of the big Mclarge huge Primarchs.

So Stormcast would be good.

Still ranked in the top 4 fighters though, I think only Sanguinus, Angron and Horus were above him.

>>43980009
The Only thing Lion ever had wrong was the fact that he had trust issues.

When he trusted people, he was naive as fuck, yet he was very rare to trust people.

If only he wasn't Tarzan.

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>>43965672
Why Sangy?

;_;

>>43979065
>Khan would have to be good at Logistics in order to be a competent General.

Not entirely true, Patton and Rommel were considered good generals and both managed to push too far and too fast and strained their own supply lines for no real reason then to overachieve. Im sure theres plenty of other generals that may be good generals but bad at logistics, which is why they have staff to aid them in their job.

>>43983874
I will never understand why people seem to hate russ.

Then I realise it's usually Magnus fags and Angron fags an that Black Library is also full of Magnus Fags and Angron fags.

Here is a hint, there is a reason why the Main Battle Tank is called the Leman Russ and not the Corax, Rowboat or the Dorn.

Because Russ was fighting for People just like Vulkan.

>>43985399
>Because Russ was fighting for People just like Vulkan.

No actually. The 30k Wolves were not the bros of 40k. They were a blunt instrument of the Emperor's will and feared by all humans who heard of them. It was after the Heresy that the Wolves became closer to the defenders of humanity they are in 40k. The wolves have one of the biggest changes pre and post heresy.

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>>43981003

>>43985423
>Leman Russ named after the Primarch during the Horus Heresy
>B-BUT THEY WERE STUPID DUMB BARBARIAN SCUM.

You know, when you quote the horrid tripe of the HH books for alot of the Space Wolf Charactisation, that even Abnett's stuff is damning shit. Then I sort of wonder what was the point of the HH books when they made almost every aspect of the event worse.

>Horus instead of a Lucifier figure to Emperor's Jesus is now a Diddn du nuffin' Wacraft Villain.

>All the Chaos Primarchs are now Diddin du nuffins.

>Emperor from a godly figure shrouded in Myth and Mystery is now Professor utonium with a fedora.

>Lion is now an autistic Moron and not King Arthur.

>Russ is Not Beowulf.

>Nearly all of the Primarchs suffer from either Autism or act like 12 year olds.

The only thing we ever got good out of it was the Grey Knights founded by not retarded Traitor marines.

>>43985050
I disagree.

>That's what Fenresians call it when they kill someone.
Huh, cool. I don't read Black Library as a rule, I've enjoyed a few books but the trash is so cringeworthy.

>>43985151
Nope, none of the Primarchs have a canonical height, and least of all Alpharius, whose height is canonically stated to be different in almost all records.

The shortest primarch according to most sources is Angron.

>>43985515

Is development and progression wrong? I like the idea of the wolves changing and morphing from the 30k executioners to the 40k bros over 10,000 years. Better that then them being the same and unchanging from pre-heresy to end times.

>>43985612
Yes.

Because the "Development" isn't really Development, it's just making them stupid assholes for no reason in their past.

>>43985533
I've read about 5 HH books, and Prospero Burns is by far the best IMO. Check it out.

>>43965672
>dorn most loyal
>word bearers laughing.jpg

>>43985020

The Allfather wove the skein of your life before you were born. Or to use the Greek analogy of the Three Fates, one of the women spun your thread, another measured its length, and the last cut it when the length ended.

So yes, cutting a thread is Fenrisian slang for a killing. Another euphemism from the home world regarding the dead is "they sleep on red snow".

>>43985856
>Word Bearers
>Loyal

>>43985151
Alphas are notably tall for Marines though, so he'd probably be closer to 8'.

Really people just aren't good at understanding how much difference even small differences in size make. Just look at how big they pretend their dicks are.

>>43982781
Maybe after some shampoo treatment

>>43985679
Maybe, if I can be bothered. I picked up the Calth anthology at my local library and the opening bit with Erebus visiting a witch were alright but a few pages into the first book proper and I felt ill. Reading HH is like eating seafood at an unfamiliar restaurant when you don't even like mussels all that much.

>>43985897
I sort of guessed that one - the Norns are basically the Fates if memory recalls - but I wanted to check.

>>43983583
>>43985271
>Mobster Horus
Cthonia was a gang world in the style of Fist of the North Star/Mad Max not Fist of the Blue Sky/Piece of the Action.

Horus was Space Raoh.

>>43986105
Before big E fucked them, yeah, they were the most loyal and the planets they conquered were the most loyal, giving even larger tithes than the Ultramarines'.

>>43986492

No problem. In addition to being a fluff geek, I have a couple history degrees and fought Norse in the SCA, so I occasionally go overboard on explaining shit.

>>43978197
The RG are so under strangth because their gene seed takes longer to ripen. Source: it makes sense to me.[\spoiler]

>>43965672
Because the Emperor, for all his divinity, was /human/. Because Horus was the most like the Emperor, out of all of them, the favoured son. Because Horus, and Horus alone, was the one son the Emperor had educated from childhood on, rather than meeting him as a (recalcitrant) grown man.

And because the Emperor knew what lurked in the genes of Sanguinius - otherwise it would have been Sanguinius "Literally The Best At Everything, Including Being Humble" of Baal.