Exalted General /exg/ Hard Questions and Bon Mot "Answers"

>>43948853
>Do you find it concerning that Holden doesn't appear to know what a "bon mot" is?
Concerning for Holden yes, the gameline no. I'd regard Holden as an annoying special needs kid if he didn't make good books.

What's some good inspiration if I wanted to make a person from Volivat?

>>43948902
>if he didn't make good books.
Is he largely responsible for any of the good books?

First for I want to bully Lilith and collect her tears

>>43948976
He's largely responsible for the BP/XP divide, and for that he must be killed.

>>43949014
I'm not one to advocate murder, targeted or otherwise. That's more /k/'s bag.

But I agree BP/XP is probably unforgivable at this juncture, and will prompt an Exalted 4th Edition in short order. Probably 3-4 years after 3e is finally released. So 2022 or so.

>>43948812

Linking my response here so Anon can respond.
>>43949108

>>43949073
I want to imagine that Paradox buying WW and getting their hands on the Exalted IP means that it will come under semi-competent management but that's probably just wishful thinking.

>>43948946

There's not much to go on. The Yennin are powerful, so playing one will likely involve an intimacy of arrogance due to the fact that by birthright along they're a match for sorcerers and Dragon-Blooded. This could be interesting, but you;re not going to be playing as anything other than a Solar for quite some time, and quite frankly Solars just blow everyone else out of the water on a one-to-one basis.

So...why the hell do Liminals exist? They don't seem to add anything to the setting or play value.

>>43949260
Because Holden isn't allowed to work on nWoD books.

>>43949260
So your Solar can try to bring back somebody they killed from the dead and halfway succeed.

>>43949260
Something something order between life and death something something against Abyssal something something

>>43949278

Goes over my head a bit. Prometheans or w/e?

>>43948853
In all fairness I had to look up "bon mot" myself. I had never heard the phrase before this thread that I can remember.

>>43949364
Yeah. He wanted Prometheans, so he ported them and changed the name

>>43949260
How about you give Liminals time to actually properly introduce themselves before dismissing them thusly?

Wait 'till the splat has had time to actually take its place in the setting and the playebase's collective imagination. Then we'll see exactly how they fit and why they're here.

>>43949364
>>43949429
That and none of the nWoD devs want to work with him.

shock.jpg

>>43949221
Eh I'm just wondering what to make of the champions and what makes the yennin so special.

>>43949492
nWoD sacked one of their writers for critisizing the Ex3 art on /tg/

They're equally cuntish

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>>43949366
In your defense, you didn't stick your foot in your mouth and then claim it was a bon mot.

>>43948853
>Do you find it concerning that Holden doesn't appear to know what a "bon mot" is?

Why the fuck are you referencing some happenstance in the OP but not actually linking to the thing you're talking about so people who don't know cab actually find out what you're talking about?

In other words, what's that about Holden and "Bons Mots" and why is it relevant enough to be a Thread header?

>>43949471
>How about you give Liminals time to actually properly introduce themselves before dismissing them thusly?
We could do that, or we could draw far-reaching conclusions based on small, possibly misremembered, misinterpreted or just made up snippets of information.

>>43949512
That was Rich Thomas, not the nWoD devs.

There is a difference. Rich doesn't develop any more.

>>43949512
No, that was Rich Thomas, Asshole Supreme.

He's both WOD and Exalted.

>>43949519
I know it's kind of the national sport in this thread but with the number of times people have done it here and then been proven wrong you'd think people would stop.

>>43949612
yeah but in this case you can just crack open Prometheans and know what's coming

>>43949640
> Liminals proceed to be almost nothing like Prometheans

How common are Martial Artists and Martial Art schools?
Perhaps a silly question that there are only a few MA styles in 3e, but there were a lot in the previous editions. Reading I get the impression that Sorcerers and Thaumaturges are rare, but Martial Artists and their schools aren't.

>>43949640
Know you can't.

Just because you're making assumptions that seem to you to be grounded in some kind of reality doesn't mean it's the same to everyone. I personally don't think Liminals will be copy-pasted Prometheans, I don't know how they'll be but I don't think lowly enough of the current crop of Devs/Writters to believe they'll be that.

Sure you can look at Promethean and get a few vague ideas about some aspects of Liminals, but you won't "know what's coming", you'll have a vague idea at most.

>>43949705
>anons proceed to still dismiss them as "lol Prometheans"

>>43949737
Martial Artists as in people who practice some form of Martial Arts are as common as they are on Earth, I'd think. After all, nothing's preventing a Mortal from picking up Martial Arts (Snake Style). Sure they won't be able to learn charms, and it doesn't change anything mechanically appart from what special gambits your ST will let you attempt that you can come up with, but it's still an indication that the mortal fights using that particular style.

Exalted-level martial artists is another thing altogether.

>>43949737
The book didn't have room for dozens of schools, that doesn't mean they got removed from existence.

There can be as many as you want.

>>43949746
>No you can't.
Fixed. No idea how I managed that.

>>43949746

>implying they're not gonna be Prometheans with Alchemicals charm swapping gimmick but zombie flavored.

>>43949885
>implying they won't be Dark Souls by way of Necrons with a pinch of Thulsa Doom

>>43949885
Even if that were true, you still couldn't know what's coming by just reading Promethean. You'd need to read Alchemicals and ingurgitate a bunch of Zombie Fiction too, and even then you'd only have a mildly representative idea of the final product because all of that is going to go through the transformative process of going from inspiration to actual material written by people.

>>43949960
People they hate. They're going to assume the worst for that reason only.

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>>43949516
>MFW I just think you're a bunch of entitled twats to think the devs have to listen to your every complaint

>>43949805
I'm talking about schools that could handle exalted level people.

>>43950025
This.

>a bunch of whiny manchildren get told the shit they needed to hear without any sugarcoating to protect their sensitive butts

I'm sorry, what was the problem with that statement again?

>>43950004
I understand that. That's why I'm trying to explain why doing just that is stupid.

Again, it's not about wether or not you like the writers. It's just a matter of honesty. It's not something you owe them, it's something you owe yourself ("you" being unspecific here, I'm not talking about you in particular, Anon).

I'm not expecting them to find enlightenment and suddenly change their ways, but it doesn't cost anything to try.

>>43950038
You should have said that to begin with then! Those schools are entirely as rare as Exalts and Exalt-level people are in the region, would be the rule of thumb.

>>43950122
It costs time that you could've used doing something else. But if you feel it's worth it, by all means fight the good fight.

Hell, you're at least making the thread more tolerable for those of us who aren't drinking the haterade.

>>43949737

For the Supernatural Styles? Depends. Very common in the Bureau of Destiny, and The Realm, for obvious reasons. While the Silver Pact and your average Deathlord probably doesn't operate a school per say, you'd be able to obtain training with more ease then say, "Jenny Dawn Caste who exalted Yesterday and has no idea what the fuck she is."

>>43950311
there are no "supernatural styles" outside of the crazy sidereal martial arts. There's mortal and spirit and exalt practitioners of all martial arts(except sid ma because proprietary). IT's just that an essence user can unlock/learn/use the charms that are in a style.

Does an exalt of a mortal martial art style learn the charms associated with that martial art?

>>43950434

If you mean "if an Exalt learns Snake Style from a mortal instructor, can he learn the Charms of that Style"? Yes.

The Charm/noCharms divide is one of personal skill and enlightenment, not so much your teacher.

>>43950434
yes. there's no "mortal" or "supernatural" martial arts styles. there's just Martial Arts with sidereal martial arts cloistered off in their own zone.

>>43950469
No what I mean is....
Like a mortal goes and learns martial arts for 2 years exalts; does he start off further along on the charm tree than Jenny the Dawn who just started learning?

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The part that really gets me about BP/XP?

It is literally the only part of Ex3's rules we have known since January 2013. Go check Nishkriya.com, I'll wait. Multiple developers confirmed they were keeping BP/XP as long as five months before the Kickstarter launched.

In the whole closed development cycle, BP/XP was the only feature the devs were both public and consistent about.

If you backed Ex3 and you're upset about BP/XP, you're a God-damn moron.
Take yourself out of this community and never come back.
Go die in a fucking fire.

>>43950521

He starts off with the dots, and gets to invest some of his "initial" Charms into the Style right away, while Jenny has neither the dots nor the Charms unless she buys them.

It's one of those things that'll only really be apparent if you mix "started as an Exalt" chargen and "Exalted in play" chargen, though.

>>43950521
Jim the mortal who exalts and has (style z) 3 has more a higher ability for charm reqs than jenny the dawn who has (Style z) 1. it depends on the concepts of the two.

though if jenny was taking supernal MA as her supernal it would be a different matter, as supernal is "i'm making this thing the core of my character thing"

>>43950568
>It is literally the only part of Ex3's rules we have known since January 2013

Not so, there were a few other snippets of the basic idea behind things (including that combat was going to be Dissidia-style and that combos weren't going to be a thing) on a page on the OPP website that I'm not sure exists anymore.

>>43950025
>>43950065
>>43950568
BP/XP divide is bad. It's outrageously bad, easy to fix, with no real costs. The fact that it remains is a blaring claxon revealing a fundamental flaw with Exalted 3E's design philosophy, namely the unwillingness of the development team to embrace the radical change that the Exalted rules, frankly, needed and still need. See also: first draft 3E Infernals.

>>43949169
That was responded to. The setting now is different. The Empress is gone and she built her Empire to fail without her. The Solars are back, Deathlords are conquering cities and Rakan Thulio's war against heaven has new soldiers.

>>43949512
And allegedly leaking two books. Oh, and apparently according to her something like a dozen other things. She called it her 15th strike.

Of course, it's much easier ignoring this just to have a reason to rag on people you hate.

>>43950757
Maybe if you guys weren't such tremendous faggots 24/7 we'd be more forgiving, Rich.

>>43949737
>Perhaps a silly question that there are only a few MA styles in 3e, but there were a lot in the previous editions.
Other editions had much, much fewer martial arts in their core books than Ex3 is. Right from the start that puts a lot more emphasis on martial arts than any edition before it.

>>43950723
But you knew that years ago. That you are still here makes you an idiot.

>>43950831
No? I have never paid a thin red cent for an Exalted book, in Kickstarter or otherwise.

>>43950779
Rich is a giant cunt. He's been a shit in every communication with the fans that I've seen and he blames everything on the fans or the developers.

That the developers are also shits is no reason to blame them for the anthology that they had only two days to read.

>>43950843
Yet you spend long periods of time discussing this game, it is a part of your life. You will probably have long games of Ex3 and spend yet more time houseruling it. This is despite the fact that you think the developers are idiots.

>>43950879
I like the setting, it's too bad about the rules. The only reason I'd use even a strenuously houseruled version of the rules is if my game group insisted on it.

>>43950781
They did? I didn't know that.

I'm just interested in making some Martial Arts schools in the north and was just asking what they should be like. I'm sort of new to all this.

>>43950025
They don't have to.

But I get my money back.

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>>43950925
>They did? I didn't know that.

2e corebook had Solar Hero Style (what is now Brawl, but only the first dozen Charms) and Snake Style.

That's it.

>>43949278
He helped write Book of the Wyrm.

>>43949492
Again, he also writes for 20th Anniversary Werewolf.

>>43951536
I believe the word there is "never again."

>>43951602
W20 is not nWoD.

>>43951616
Are you implying the Wod20 devs aren't the same pool of people as the nWoD devs.

Ok.

>>43951647
>they're literally not the same

>>43950723
A lot has changed, and for the better, but the Legacy stuff remains annoying

>>43951677
I mean if Holden and Morke did write Beast the Primordial, it'd probably be less of a shitshow overall but still use bp/xp.

>>43951711
You put this out in the universe, anon.

You own this.

>>43949260
Liminals are handy because Exalted is a universe where resurrection doesn't work, yet to anyone in setting it logically seems like it should, so presumably lots and lots of people have tried and failed. Liminals mean that something interesting can happen when someone tries to resurrect the dead. They're like the Homonculi from FMA more than Prometheans, honestly.

Given that this is Exalted and a lot of people are probably going to die as your Solar claws their way to the top, it's very easy to see how there will be situations where that's going to help tell cool stories.

>>43951756
Have you read Beast the Primordial?

The reaction /tg/ and other sites had to Ex3 when it leaked was very positive.

That did not happen when Beast leaked.

>>43952127
No, I haven't.

But my interest in nWoD is tangential these days.

>>43952222
Hence, I believe my statement still stands.

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Anyone have a Liminal idea that they'd be willing to share? I've honestly only had one idea for a Liminal exalt and I don't think it is good enough to develop and further.

>>43952670
I've got a bounty hunter in my game, as an NPC sort-of-foil to one of the PCs, because he's playing up the notorious thief angle of being a Night

>>43952670
I'd like to play a Sijanese Aspect of Soil, one that arose from the corpse of a funerary priest who used to lead a small Sijanese sect and was well set to climb Sijan's hierarchy when he were brutally murdered by a rival cult. The priest's sect was left with no leadership, no leverage, no face to adress the authorities and were so lost they chose to break their greatest taboo and attempt to rise him from the dead.

Sijan's authorities got wind of what they had done, executed them all, but kept the resulting Liminal as a forced, hidden guest, only called upon for the most dangerous of funerary procedures, exorcisms and similar fares. Also to research on him from time to time.

The idea being that since his Creators are dead, he's slowly turning into a monster and has to escape his semi-captivity and establish contact with living breathing people to establish a new Lifeline, so when the game starts he's on the run from Sijan's elite "Retrieve the Walking Dead that escaped the mausoleum-city" squad of killer exorcist monks.

Question /eg/: What merits would I have to take to make my character a ruler of a somewhat sizeable threshold city right out of chargen? I'm thinking Influence 4+, one of Resources/Backing 4+, and Command or Followers. Would that cover it?

>>43953197
More or less. Check with your ST.

>>43953144
Oh that is very nice, I like that idea.

So, I'd quit around "The Dawn Solution", back in 2nd edition.

How are things looking for DBs and Sids this time around?

What are the odds they'll actually be viable?

>>43953197
Well, to be a ruler you need three things :
-A title and the position that comes with it (so Influence 4 or 5 depending on the size and influence of your city state).
-An army, so pick up Command at 4 or 5 if you're a great Military power, or lower if you're not.
-A Government, so pick up Followers as many times as you like (Something like "Followers (Bureaucrats) 2" for the main government body; "Followers (Spies) 1" for your Intelligence agency, "Followers (Priests) 1" for your Ministry of Faith), and grab as many Retainers as you got governmental bodies to represent the Ministers and Heads of government/small council/inner circle.

If you're looking to rule a Theocracy, add in Cult 3 or 4, put "God-King" in your list of leaderly titles, and you're ready to go!

>>43953446
I don't know what this means

>>43953446
Dragon-Blooded will be playable, balanced, and fun, some time around 2032 when their book comes out.

>>43953197
>>43953634 here, as an addendum, Backing is not what you're after :

>Drawback: Backing represents membership rather than leadership. Characters will have to answer to superiors and uphold the duties of their station to retain it.

Ressources is a pretty good idea, because being rich as fuck is cool. You don't need to represent the city's funds, but you not having any Ressources would mean you're not getting any personnal monetary gain from running the city, which means your city's economy is probably not very good.

>>43953446
The current Devs and Writers are almost all people who wrote up the 2.5 Errata that made DBs and Sids actually playable in that edition (among other improvements to the game).

They've fixed them for free before, I don't really believe they'd do any worse now that they're getting money from it.

Also this time around the groundwork has been laid for other splats real early in development, so we're a lot less likely to see splats written as if the authors didn't have any bloody idea what they were doing.

Also, no copy-pasting 1st Edition charmtext anymore. That'll help a whole fucking bunch too.

Fucksakes did someone let the autists start /exg/ again?

>>43953714
>Backer PDF already out
>Official release soon
>All the hardest work for the edition done
>Still memeing this hard

>>43953854
sup holden

your bon mot continues to haunt you

Hm... what's the worst backstory for a solar you've ever heard?

>Today was the day you learned that calling people Holden doesn't make you any less autistic

A public service, if you will. You can thank me after your therapy and meds kick in.

>>43954156
ok holden

>>43954209
ok holden

>>43954209
>>43954374
you are both wrong I'm holden

>>43954439
I'm holdin'. Does that count?

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>>43954439

>>43954131

A 12 foot tall, four armed, winged Zenith who was the daughter of the UCS. Born and raised under the wing of the Cult of the Illuminated and Exalted doing something or other, can't remember.

>>43953934
I will believe that they are capable of putting out stuff other than the core at a good pace when they show it.

At present, all evidence is that the core has not been just slow to put out, but undermined and slowed by retarded policies at every stage of development (e.g. Holden manually doing all the 'see page XX' stuff, them redoing layout multiple times, firing all the playtesters to prevent another leak, etc).

>>43954571
No where does it say that the Celestials can't have kids.

>>43954720
Sure, but it's still a retarded backstory.

>>43954720
Because that is the only problem with that backstory.

>>43954746
>>43954756
If they weren't exalted I wouldn't have a problem with it.

>>43954794
Why would the child of the Unconquered Sun have wings?

>>43954849
Maybe the mother was one of those winged people?
I'd prefer having four arms and wings rather than one set of arms and some sort of creepy looking fusion of wings-arms.

>>43951677
...old werewolf and new werewolf have the same developer and the dude who did Beast and is doing 2e Prometheans is developing changeling 20th. They literally are the same people.

>>43954958
That would at least have the benefit of being interesting rather than being some tired deviantart shit.

>>43954571
Wow, in a game where you've got full reign to go balls to the wall full on special snowflake and it's not only allowed but almost expected, that back story is still despicably filled with "I'm so special".

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>>43953446
We don't have enough info yet, but the DB Excellency is (Ability+Specialty) dice, then you can spend a WP to reroll (Essence) dice whose result you didn't like.

Sidereals can buy (Ess) dice, or reduce TN down to 4 for 1m per reduction, or both.

So overall it seems like they've gotten something of an upgrade.

Martial Arts have been flattened into one single tier that DBs and Celestials both can access, but a lot of MA Charms have the Celestial keyword, which prevents Terrestrials from accessing their full power except under certain conditions (like spend a WP, reach Initiative 11+, etc). Rumor has it the Sidereals will get some form of MA upgrade, but we have clue what yet.

IIRC Holden is a huge fan of Sidereals, so there's a chance of dev favoritism.

I'm actually struggling with picking out a martial art that my character could use.

>>43955222
what's your character like

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>>43955172
>IIRC Holden is a huge fan of Sidereals, so there's a chance of dev favoritism

And since I've had a hard-on for Sids for years and they were so mistreated back in 2nd Ed, I'm most certainly not going to complain about that!

>Pic Related, the Modern Chosen of Serenity I want to play.

>>43955259
Naïve warrior.
Comes from a long line of skilled warriors and swords masters. Father already had three children ahead of them, trained in various combat fields so the family legacy/tradition was safe. They were raised with the intention of them being the stay at home person who ran the whole thing but they day dreamed of being a dashing warrior like their ancestors.
Quickly coming to terms with the fact that combat may not be all that noble.

>>43955469
Sounds like Single Point might be a good pick, though you could easily do that concept with standard Solar Melee too.

>>43954571
I'm in that game. Sad to say that that particular post has been deleted; I wish I'd preserved it when I had the chance.

>>43955469
Why pick Martial Arts and not just Supernal Melee?

>>43955538

What a shame. What's the game like? I assume that she didn't make it in?

>>43955565
Eh cause I'm tied to her family being martial artists I suppose. That's really the only reason.

>>43955728
I dunno dude, the blurb you've presented us with doesn't ring "martial artist family" to me anymore than "great martial tradition family", which would include warriors of any types rather than specifically Martial Artists.

A Martial Artist Family would be renowed for a particular style and have rivalries with other families that use different styles and stuff. So my advice would be : if you want this to be a family of Martial Artists, start by developping the Family itself, and then look at how that molds your character.

There's two sword Styles available : Steel Devil and Single Point. Look at which of those two inspires you most to write up a whole family line devoted to it, and start from there!

Ever had a player be Desus reborn and had him run into Lilith for lols?

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>>43956266
That would require Swan to have died.

>>43956649

Wrong thread, dude.

>implying anyone here doesn't wanna fuck Prince Diamond's boypussy

>>43956649
I know you're probably been spamming this in every thread, but Exalted has been inclusive since the first edition.

>>43956587
Naturally I'm assuming Swan isn't in play.

>>43956682
>Prince Daimond
>boypussy
Anon...

>>43957102

LITERALLY a boy's pussy, Anon. Come on, keep up.

>>43948853
So as someone who has been asked to run Exalted, can someone give me the pros and cons for 2.5 vs 3rd edition? I heard 3rd is more streamlined or something to that extent but 2.5 has a ton more books.

Alright, so a friend of mine has an artifact weapon for our Exalted game, and the lore is that it was built from the corpses of slain leviathans and giant beasts by some ancient hunter in the far-off, murky past, and is sized for men of giant stature. Huge as fuck Powerbow. General themes of strength over skill, launching spear-sized arrows with impossible vigor and unstoppable force, thirsting to slay great monsters, yadda yadda.

Was wanting some criticism on the first evocation I wrote, which is also the first charm I've ever homebrewed

Titan-Thew Draw
Cost: 4m Requirements: Archery 3, Essence 1
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Perilous, Dual
Duration: Instant

(Insert flowery Exalted style charm-fluff here)
On a Withering Attack, add Strength-2 dice of post-soak damage. On a Decisive Attack, add (essence) to damage. For either one, ignore light cover, destroying it in the process, and be able to make attacks at Extreme range.
Essence 3 Upgrade; Add Strength dice to post-soak damage


So, my thought is that for 3m you could add 3 dice of post-soak with fire and stones strike. Wise arrow costs 1m and lets you downgrade cover by one step, along with lowering defense by 1 for targets in the open/can hit opponents in full cover at +3 defense if you've aimed first. So, until essence 3, you're paying equal cost to fire and stones and 1m for a slightly worse wise arrow, and at E3 you're paying for a better fire and stones and a worse wise arrow. The Extreme Range effect is also worse than There Is No Wind, as TINW treats your attack as being made from short range, upgrading your accuracy from -1 for Extreme to +5 for Short. I think that makes the essentially 1m for ignoring light cover+letting someone strike at bad accuracy at Extreme Range worth it (As he also still has to activate awareness charms to see that far).

I am however worried that it would have too much synergy with ISE. Thoughts?

>>43957325
>2.5 has a ton more books.
In Exalted, that's a bad thing.

>>43957325

Since you're going to be running an all-Solars game for your first foray into Exalted anyway, you may as well run 3e.

>>43957645
It is going to be all Solar. I have one player though that was really into the idea of being an item creation wizard-ish character, is their enjoyment going to be affected at all since I read somewhere that there is less emphasis on magitech stuff in 3rd as opposed to 2.5

>>43955329
Iwata communicates through facial expressions and mimetic arts. He is truly the tensai we deserve.

>>43957325
2/2.5 is a mess. The combat is nine steps per action and takes hours for fights, while if you don't have a proper "one true build" going on the players it's really easy to accidentally kill their characters.

>>43957723

If that player's really willing to drag a first-time ST through 2.5e's garbage system just so he doesn't have to reskin his artifacts as magitech (which is all 2.5e would do for him, since that's all it did to "emphasize" magitech, was grab a bunch of artifacts from 1E and say "these are magitech now"), he's already too much of a piece of shit to bother with.

>>43957723
Okay so, before anyone else gripes about Craft (And it does have problems)

Ask him if he wants crafting to be a MAJOR part of his character, something he'll want to do every session on-screen, with items that aren't always world-shattering significance, and that he's open to crafting a bunch of different kinds of things.

If so? The Craft system works, let him go on his merry way, his only problem will be that artifact weapons and armor have to be unique.

If not? He will hate the Craft system and the Craft system will hate him.

Magitech still exists in everything but name, but there's a lot more emphasis on artifacts having legends and histories instead of "I made 20 daiklaves this week"

>>43957325
3e
Pro-

Okay, ya know what? I'm not evne going to bother with the pretext. 3e is better by every conceivable metric except in splat variety. And even then, people have gone on record to state that they would rather port a splat from 2e to 3e than run 2e again.

And they have put their money where their mouth is. Alchemicals have been made, and Infernals and Lunars are being worked on.

Don't play 2e.

>>43957325
Having a ton more books means nothing when the system is a broken clustefuck. Go with 3e, the rules are immensely better and the setting has actually been written with all the splats in mind.

>>43957373
That's arguably better than melee's Fire and Stones Strike. It's 1m per die, up to Str on withering, and 1m per extra success on the attack roll for Decisive (at the limit of the greater of Essence or 3). It also bakes in the extreme range from There is No Wind, an Essence 2 Archery 5 charm that uses 3m and needs an Aim action to use like that.
IE, shit's OP yo. Get a 1 WP cost to use, limit it to once per scene with a appropriate reset condition or something like that and it might be acceptable, though.

>>43957723
>>43957787
That actually ties with the post I was writing before /tg/ decided I couldn't post (>>43957915 here).

So, craft. Yeah, I know /tg/'s opinion of it tends to be "screw that, use sorcerous workings' rules", but considering our group will not be doing that, would the following be agreeable?

- Eliminate Silver Points. Basic projects only give points if dramatically appropriate (no crafting one thousand arrows to make a Daiklaive). If something would give you SP, get half (round up) Gold Points instead. If something would cost SP, spend half (round down) GP instead. Major Projects have no point cost to finish.
-Eliminate most of the the Efficiency (slots) craft tree. If it gives or directly interact with slots, it's out. Sublime Transference (transforming 2SP<>1GP, 2GP<>1WP) is also out. Yes, this makes charms in the end of the tree easier to get. Oh, Exegegis of the Distilled Form (spend White Points to get character XP) is also out, because wtf and the 8 odd charms taken out of the tree are way more XP than this will ever get you.
-Special Materials have GP/WP "in" them. You're making a Daiklaive? Well you can only use that White Jade talent to carve it, but a Behemoth Bone hilt would be quite nice, wouldn't it? "Questing" for extra materials effectively gives you craft points.

Would this help making Craft viable (and less of a XP sink)? The circle's Twilight is quite Adamant (bad pun intended) in getting Craft Supernal, and without charms that would be quite a moot point.

>>43957782
In his defense we're all new to the system and he liked the magi tech element when we all looked through the 2.5 books without knowing how the rules really worked.

>>43957787
Okay, I'm going to send the player this and ask him his opinion, he did complain in previous games about his creations basically coming down to "I make X daggers a week for profit I guess"

>>43957753
This will probably decide it since two players plan to do combat with one also being the face and the third being a support character. We've played a lot of systems and the prolonged combat is a problem for us since we usually have players that sort of zone out if it takes too long.

>>43957915
Hrm. I'd rather dial it back to something he could use every turn; a bread and butter charm to represent that it's a fucking huge bow shooting off a spear-sized arrow that's going to punch through you.

Again though, I have to raise the point that it's /much worse/ than There Is No Wind because your accuracy is still the Extreme Range accuracy of -1, instead of being calculate from Short Range (+5) like TINW does. TINW is 3m for an increase in accuracy that gets bigger the farther away you are+ignoring vision penalties.

Would removing the Essence 3 upgrade help, plus adding that you can only fire at extreme with an aim action?

>>43958052
I missed that part of TINW. BUT it only applies to Withering attacks, so the evocation is not that much worse. If you also consider that the damage increase is considerable.
Also, my bad but I hadn't read the paragraph explaining your thinking process until now.

But we're missing a crucial point, evocations are NOT bread-and-butter charms. They are special snowflakes that do cool stuff. Considering that, if you still want something to be used every turn, think about playing more on the BIGHUGE side of the Powerbow. I'd say that a possible way to do this, without intruding in the effects already in the archery tree, would be something like this:

Titan-Thew Draw
Cost: 2m or 2m per die Requirements: Archery 3, Essence 1
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Dual
Duration: Instant

(Insert flowery Exalted style charm-fluff here)
A Withering Attack made with [bow name here] is either Piercing (ignore 4 armor soak. You don't have to pay the initiative cost to do it) or Powerful (no matter the range it's made from).
At Essence 3 you may pay 3m for the Withering Attack to be both.
On a Decisive Attack you may add damage die to the attack at a rate of 1 die per 2m, up to [target's Stamina -2] dice.

This allows you to give tangible benefits for a non-null cost that will be relevant through the entire campaign, while still following the "I shoot spears out of a mudafuking hand balista" feel. Leave the extreme range things for archery - I guess he'll have it as a Supernal, so TINW will be staple for him already.

What the fuck is a bon mot?

>>43958772
Witty remark.

>>43954131

I read one for a heavens reach game that was 20 pages of backstory alone

>>43955919

Honestly even without MA you could have house rivalries.

I agree with Lea that MA should've been removed. Causes more problems than its worth and almost nothing in the setting would be lost.

"Mai sidereals!"

SMA is all the more reason to dump it and just be some form of sidereal charms. As I said, nothing of value would be lost.

>>43959111
That's some Old Man Henderson level shit

Also nice trips

>>43957871

Alchemical guy here.

I didn't pay anything to make 3e Alchies...

>>43959229
Putting your money where your mouth is doesn't necessarily mean paying anything
It just means you delivered on what you said you would do.

>>43958672

Not bread and butter? Really? The waifu daiklave had amazing charms you could just spam with a bit of setup. Black winds attunement bonus makes me want it alone.

>>43959251

I know. I was acting like an idiot.

I'm hoping to have up to malfeas charms by christmas, so i can show it to people and see if backstory and general power/coolness is fine.

Exalted is a good concept and design mired in over complication and turgid design. White Wolf as a studio has always produced over complicated unstreamlined garbage and their properties suffer for it. You won't see a good Exalted System until.someone prys it from WWs cuntish, too stupid to live hands. Unnecessary rules complication, poor formatting, we can go on and on but you all stay because the idea is good and you want to tear out the bad rules and somehow make it passable.

>>43959709
ok holden

>>43959709
Haha, 'tugid'.

>>43959579
Being spammable is not the same thing as being bread an butter, at least that's how I see it. There's no problem with spamming it - what I suggested no doubt would be - but when it just becomes a generic dice trick like the basic charms it's not a decent Evocation anymore.

Well, at least when the trick doesn't align with the idea of the artifact. No Other Blade is only a +1 non-charm success, but it fits well with the theme. Also, it gives something that does not overlap with Ability charms (as non-charm success/dice stack without limit).

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BRAVO

>>43960003
>BRAVO
I assume this is sarcasm, but I don't actually know what you're being sarcastic about. Care to explain?

If anyone cares about reading some homebrew, here's my take on Fate's Excalibur as an artifact daiklave. It's based around building up and spending anima, so it's not the most subtle of blades.

http://pastebin.com/5r5qrfR8

>>43956820
It's a bot. Whenever that image comes up with that exact filename, you know it's gonna be a bot

>>43957737
What's Matt Bloom gotta do with this?

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>>43960289
Drop it in homebrew?

I accidentally made a Liminal two sessions ago. It's been awesome. My Circle is so not okay with it.

>>43961267
Done

>>43961286
You accidentally tried to bring someone back from the dead?

>>43961495
I think he means he tried to bring someone back from the dead deliberately, but created accidentally.
Making a Liminal upon a failed resurrection is not guaranteed.

>>43961495
>>43961821

I figured I'd storytime, because it's a sweet story.

I play Lyan Ku, the Jubilant Rajarshi, a faeborn sorcerer who was raised in a freehold suckling on the teat of dramatic folklore and fairytales. He believes himself the protagonist in his own story and ended up exalting as a Zenith at a young age when sent to face a hannya by his insane father. He's brave, righteous, self-sacrificing and inspiring - only because he thinks those are the qualities a true hero should have and plays the part, not because those are integral parts of his personality.

He was staying in the Lunar-controlled city of Edria in the Caul, teaching children and helping old ladies and shooing off/redeeming brigands and such, when suddenly the city was attacked during a fundraiser ball for the local school he was hosting. Zombies crawled up from the shores of the city, having travelled via the bottom of the ocean. Two pirate ships loaded with firedust mortars showed up on the horizon, ready to lay siege to the city. Lyan Ku, rising on sorcerous winds of Stormwind Rider, convinced a charming aristocrat friend of his to help out and flew over the sea toward the first ship.

The charismatic aristocrat hollered to the sharktopus god of the bay, Oma-Taja, who eagerly joined the fray chomped on the sailors who fell off the boat. We killed their captains and then commandeered the non-destroyed ship, convincing them to turn to our side. Meanwhile, two Solar animas flared in the city as the Twilight wonder-smith and a beastman Dawn fought them off. We soon discovered through a mysterious pirate-connected man that was helping us out that a deathknight by the name of Moon and Shattered Ice Savant was behind the attacks, operating from a haunted island off the coast.

>>43962011
We started preparing Edria for a second an attack, discovering that the signal fires had not been lit and that the Lunar-appointed beastman military advisor had not been doing his job very well. Tag-teaming with my aristocrat friend (secretly an Eclipse), we convinced him to let my Zenith train the remaining people in Edria that the Lunar leader Watchful Sage had not drafted to the war effort against the Dynast-controlled city of Faxai.

While the mysterious pirate dude who turned out to be a Night caste did recon on the island, Lyan Ku repeatedly sang Mulan's "I'll make a man out of you" to train elite archers and fearless warriors from drunken sailors, enthusiastic youths and patriotic grandmas. The Dawn disappeared at this point as the player had to drop out.

We discovered that Moon and Shattered Ice Savant had three allies; Hallowed Mochi, a ghost operating from the Underworld who believed himself a god and demanded worship, a yet unknown storm mother and Babajide, a tremendously swole thunderbird. Lyan Ku summoned the thunderbird with a sorcerous working and we convinced the thunderbro to change sides in exchange of building him a temple and having our warriors wield the insignia of a thunderbird as their symbol. He agreed.

We were worried Moon and Shattered Ice Savant had spies in Edria, so the Eclipse and Lyan Ku threw a big party, promising a critical announcement regarding the upcoming fight against the deathknight. We pulled up all the important people in the same room with our Night ready to spot anyone spying on us.

>>43962019
As we were about to make the announcement, everything went pitch black. Sounds of murder erupted, with Lyan Ku commanding everyone to take formations and fight against these unseen opponents. Once the darkness cleared, the corpses of Edria's rulers were positioned on the floor in the eight-pointed star of a Dusk caste. Being Zenith, Lyan reached down to absorb the memories of their last moments; getting a flash of vision of an armored, helmeted woman dressed in armor of soulsteel and a wicked daiklave alloyed from orichalcum and soulsteel.

Without rulership, Edria would fall, so it was on us to take the mantle. Lyan suggested we make the Twilight, a known Solar, our leader. The party smiled a little and gently told Lyan that he's loved by the people as a culture hero and nobody else would fit the position better. So, after a little bit of consideration, he accepted and became Edria's regent.

The news of the change of rulers spread far and wide and soon enough Lyan was approached by a terrified ghost who informed him that Hallowed Mochi was planning an attack on Edria from the nearby shadowland. Lyan studied the stars and manuals of war along with the information provided by the ghost, determining that their plan of attack was to use a ghost-blooded sorcerer and his band of blood apes to destroy the salt lines the Twilight and Lyan had put into place to defend Edria. With a decisive attack against that portion of the army, their plan would fail.

We scouted the shadowlands and discovered thousands of war ghosts gathering there, managing figure out where the demons were. Trapping the terrain between Edria and the shadowland, we prepared to pre-emptively attack. Our amazing archers led by the Eclipse and Lyan with the Twilight flashing in with Stormwind rider, we struck a decisive blow against the demons. With the help of an ambush strategy, we obliterated the erymanthoi without much trouble.

>>43962031

Now we would only have to deal with the thousands of ghosts. The Night possessed one of the ghost officers and commanded the hordes to march into the death trap we had set; salt lines creating a maze they'd get stuck in while our archers would pick them off. A hideous war-beast wrapped in iron chains charged from their ranks toward us, the Twilight and my Zenith preparing themselves.

Lyan blocked the monster's first attack, only to realize that it was but a distraction. In an eruption of shadowy tendrils, that armored woman the rulers of Edria had fallen to emerged from the shadows. Without hesitation, she launched a devastating surprise attack at the Twilight and Lyan. Ever the hero, Lyan interposed himself in the way to try and save the Twilight; taking the full brunt of the blow. This would have killed him if he hadn't taken a crippling wound; the orichalcum-and-soulsteel blade cleaving through his eye and the side of his face.

Taking in the dramatic moment, Lyan made eye contact with his remaining side and adopted the Dusk as his enemy with a whispered; "From now on... we are enemies." Realizing how badly wounded the Zenith was and that they couldn't win this fight, Lyan and the Twilight withdrew, Lyan using his artifact direlash to unleash a frustrated decisive attack on the way to kill a few hundred ghosts in one blow while the archers took care of the rest and forced them into retreat. The Dusk lost interest and wandered off.

Returning to his people after the victory, Lyan was met by the Lunar who had conquered Edria originally. He convinced Watchful Sage that he had done what he felt was necessary to protect the city and the loss of his eye was a small price to pay to keep Edria from being besieged. The Lunar found Lyan's heroism admirable and agreed to let him remain the regent of Edria.

>>43962038
Lyan interred the fifty or so dead soldiers and with the help of the Twilight they built a colossal monument in the center of Edria, planting a tree inside it. Lyan infused the memories of the fallen soldiers to the tree-monument, pulling heartsap from the sapling growing inside it and mixing it with white jade and spiritually purified soulsteel (Twilight's Words-as-Workshop tool) to create himself a mesmerizing artifact mask that restored his sight and carried with it the memories of the fallen.

He was then approached by the former spymaster of Edria who swore fealty to him and Lyan sent him out to track down the Dusk who had stolen his eye. He told the spymaster to convey her the message that Lyan wanted to meet her for tea and civil discussion. He was getting a little carried away with his sudden love-antagonism, as faeborn tend to do, fantasizing about bringing her back from the darkness and purifying the corruption in her soul.

At this point a new arrival came to Edria, a young girl venerated as a war god by a rural village and her cadre of warrior monks. The girl openly identified herself as a Solar Dawn, hoping to lend help against the effort against the creatures of darkness besieging Edria. She was quite taken by Lyan's overdramatic behaviour and great accomplishments. Lyan also instantly befriended her, finding kinship in their shared sense of dramatic heroism. The rest of the circle, well, they constantly berated Lyan for his dramatics - something that hurt him greatly but he kept it under wraps because he respected his friends.

Hallowed Mochi was still a problem, though. He was in his fortress in the Underworld, regrouping and gathering his strength for a counterattack. We would not give him the chance. With thirty thunderbirds led by Babajide in the sky casting their war-blessings on one thousand tiger warriors below, Lyan's raksha friend with her hobgoblin army and the young Dawn and her warrior monks, we attacked the Underworld.

>>43962046
We obliterated their first defenses and pushed deeper, sieging the fortress-city of Hallowed Mochi. Setting awing on the thunderbirds and dropping the raksha to protect the entrance, we landed on the rooftop of Hallowed Mochi's palace. The Twilight used Shattering Grasp to destroy the ceiling and we descended down on chunks of underworld granite in all our glory, animas flaring; "Hallowed Mochi, false god, we meet at last." Lyan extended out his gossamer and starmetal direlash. "Let us demonstrate to you... true divinity."

Hallowed Mochi was taken to his knees by the Night's surprise attack, barely holding on. He breathed out Mists of Eventide, but Lyan punched his spell into pieces. He tried to escape, starting to teleport away, but our Dawn flashed in with her grimscythe and destroyed his spirit with Ghost-Eating Technique. Carrying his sword and armor, we emerged from the palace. The amassed forces of the Underworld bowed down to us, recognizing defeat.

We spent the next few weeks dismantling the underworld city and repairing things. Lyan taught his Twilight friend sorcery through a pact with a lord of the volcano, hoping he'd put it to good use; only to discover that the first thing the Twilight had done was go behind Lyan's back to learn demon summoning, something Lyan heavily objected to. Before they got into an argument, however, the rest of the party intervened and the discussion got sidetracked as to what to do next.

Lyan insisted they must find the Dusk, which provoked everyone into calling the Dusk Lyan's girlfriend, which he kept refuting. They made fun of him, they went "sure sure" when he told them something he had never told anyone else about his past, dismissing this important revelation about his past as one of Lyan's fancy stories. The Zenith was starting to reconsider his disposition toward his friends.

>>43962055
After a while, the spymaster showed up; stomach sliced open and about to die. He had found the Dusk. She was holed up in a village in the countryside, surrounded by corpses and tiny altars built for them. Lyan, not wanting to get hurt again, donned Hallowed Mochi's soulsteel armor that came with a mantle that defies time and gravity and flashes about on its own - an armor that draws on madness to empower the user in exchange of his sanity.

Naturally, the party mocked him again for looking so dramatic once he was all dressed up. He didn't care anymore, channeling his anger through his sorcery to blast massive gusts of wind at the village once they got there to find the Dusk. She showed herself and after a relatively one-sided struggle she was knocked out as Lyan had told everyone that she MUST be kept alive.

The Circle took her to a safe location and chained her, the Night convincing Lyan that it'd be a lot more appropriate for her to wake up to the rest of the circle interrogating her and then he could show up for the big finale and convert her once they had softened her up. Lyan agreed out of respect for his friend.

He was practicing his speech outside when the Dusk woke up. The Night asked her a couple of questions about her motivations, she said she had none, that she had no reason to live and that she didn't care what happened to her. The Night laughed and handed her a dagger; "Fine, then kill yourself." She did. The Night was a little surprised by this, but shrugged and went outside to tell Lyan that "Good news, she wouldn't have helped us anyway. Bad news, she's dead."

Roll. "I limit break." The constant berating, constant deferring to the Circle's logic and reason instead of doing what Lyan considered just and heroic, had pushed him over the edge.

>>43962069
The sorcerer blasted the shack they were interrogating her in apart with sorcerous winds, flying over to her, breaking her shackles and lifting her limp corpse to a bridal carry with tears streaming down his face. "There's a mistake in the story, an error in the world." And then, there, a realization. "But it might not be too late." Shooting out one hundred miles an hour with Stormwind Rider, Lyan Ku carried the corpse of his nemesis to the High Aerie of the Lightning-Kissed Kestrel, the freehold he had grown up in and still ruled. The party, alarmed, pursued him on agatae.

When they got there, the raksha in the freehold were all dressed in mourning robes, carrying candles, weeping and chanting. In the hearthstone chamber, in a pool of liquid essence of lightning, the Jubilant Rajarshi was performing the most blasphemous ritual of all. Still dressed in Hallowed Mochi's soulsteel armor and black flowing cloak of Hallowed Mochi, drawing sigils in air with his own blood and tears while surrounding by the laments of the raksha; "A mistake in the story, an error in the world".

Lyan Ku, Jubilant Rajarshi, Regent of Edria, was trying to bring her back.

The party rushed over, trying to convince Lyan to stop. The young Dawn pleading for reason; "She ended her own life! She didn't want to live! You can't do this!" The Twilight trying logic; "It is impossible, you cannot bring back the dead!" But whatever they tried, his Respect-Commanding Attitude forced them to play by the rules of the freehold and the dramatic scene of him bringing back his lost opportunity, his lost nemesis he never had the chance to redeem. Though they tried, they could not stop him with words nor force.

>>43962077
The empty body of the deathknight was lifted up as the sorcerous ritual was nearing completion, drawing crackling lightning from the legendary demesne underneath the freehold as Lyan floated about her, channeling more and more Essence to the body through his mastery of Miracles of Shadow and Chaos and the infinite possibilities of the Wyld. Arcs of pure energy crackled on her form, breathing artificial life into her, until she was slowly lowered down to a stone altar. Lyan floated down next to her, cupped her cheek and shed a tear. "Come back to me." But she didn't.

A traumatized mess - betrayed by his friends, denied the opportunity to redeem his nemesis - he collapsed on the floor and wept uncontrollably. The Dawn set a hand on his shoulder, trying to comfort the sorcerer, but there was nothing that could be said. Very slowly the Zenith composed himself and reached for the corpse's brow, ready to incinerate the body; "So to eternal rest, then --"

And then she gasped, brought back to life. Impossible. No. Lyan Ku, the Jubilant Rajarshi, had done the impossible. He had given life where there was none! It was a miracle, a miracle! The raksha gathered to witness the ritual howled in joy, the freehold exploding into celebration.

The Circle was stunned as Lyan who clutched the woman against his chest, crying out of joy. "How did you die?" The Night caste managed to ask the now smiling woman closed in Lyan's embrace. "I slit my throat", she answered, calm and composed. "Do you want your orichalcum-and-soulsteel daiklave back?" "No, it is a bad memory - forged from the sword of the chosen of the Sun that killed me, only for me to come back and kill him in return. That life is behind me now." Lyan turned to look at the party, vindicated, triumphant, having shown them all how HE WAS RIGHT and THEY WERE WRONG.

>>43962077
The Circle, unable to process the blasphemous act they had witnessed, slowly and silently withdrew from the freehold as the raksha were shaping banquets halls and flying festive flags in preparation of a season-long celebration.

Knowing he had redeemed her and brought her back, Lyan could only smile at the woman. "I am Song of the Sky", she finally said, taking Lyan's hand to hers. "And I would love to have tea with you."

~

Last session Lyan and Song of the Sky returned to Edria after a week of celebration in the freehold and they seem to be very close. The Circle is incredibly suspicious of her, but she is a humble and pious woman who has a great respect for the dead. The Zenith, having absorbed the memories of the rulers of Edria she killed, shunted their vengeful memories from his anima into her to allow her to suffer and repent her vile actions.

She has been nothing if not cooperative, revealing the details of a nefarious plan; a whole circle of Abyssals is in the Caul, Moon and Shattered Ice Savant but one of them. They are being controlled by a mysterious figure by the name of the Silver Prince and Song in the Sky requested Lyan and the Circle's help in defeating him. He is more than happy to do so, having already sent his spymaster to look into this dark figure.

The Circle? They're convinced that if they don't play along with Lyan's whims and manipulate him subtly, it's going to be God-King's Shrike on Edria next....

>>43957966
>Eliminate Silver Points. Basic projects only give points if dramatically appropriate [...].

You loose the only incentive Craft has ever had to be used on screen. Silver Points and Basic Projects are there for a reason : Craft *needs* a mechanic to bring it back to the foreground and uptime of the game, otherwise it just naturally slides off and becomes the Downtime Wizard ability again, which is really not what you want.
As an aside, Basic projects already only give points if dramatically appropriate : there are three criteria that if satisfied will each give you an XP reward (If it causes someone to develop or strengthen an intimacy towards you/ if it nets you a clear in-game gain like money or Allies/if it upholds or protects one of your own intimacies). You also earn some at the end of each story depending on how many different Crafts you've used in that story. The people presenting the system as WoW-style crafting have simply not actually read the system. A thousand arrows isn't a thousand Basic projects, it's one Major one.

You should rather focus on giving your player opportunities to use his Craft from Basic projects if you're affraid he's going to be stuck with no Silver Points : it's absolutely impossible to run out provided your player does at least a couple Basics per story.

>Eliminate most of the the Efficiency (slots) craft tree. If it gives or directly interact with slots, it's out. Sublime Transference (transforming 2SP<>1GP, 2GP<>1WP) is also out. Yes, this makes charms in the end of the tree easier to get. Oh, Exegegis of the Distilled Form (spend White Points to get character XP) is also out, because wtf and the 8 odd charms taken out of the tree are way more XP than this will ever get you.

If you heed what I said about Silver Points you won't modify Sublime Transference. I don't know what your rationale is for removing Slots charms but not Slots themselves so I'll wait for you to explain. (Cont)

>>43957966
(Cont'd)
>Special Materials have GP/WP "in" them. You're making a Daiklaive? Well you can only use that White Jade talent to carve it, but a Behemoth Bone hilt would be quite nice, wouldn't it? "Questing" for extra materials effectively gives you craft points.

That's actually not a bad idea, provided that the amount of craft points you gain from those is capped so that you cannot simply craft something without spending your own points. Also I'd make it more conditionnal : a pristine behemoth fang would be a pleasure to make a direlance out of, one broken and tarnished and in bad shape wouldn't.

>Would this help making Craft viable (and less of a XP sink)? The circle's Twilight is quite Adamant (bad pun intended) in getting Craft Supernal, and without charms that would be quite a moot point.

Craft is already viable. It works, that's not in question anymore, the only point of contention /tg/'s got with Craft is that it's geared towards one very specific style of play and involves a whole bunch of beancounting, which some people here just fucking hate. But if your Twilight's picking up Craft Supernal? Chances are he's already going to play the kind of character that *works* with this system. Craft Supernal means he considers Craft to be THE defining part of his character ; if he doesn't mind the bean counting, he's going to love the system.

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>>43962019
>the signal fires had not been lit

>>43962125
I fucking love it.

>>43953197
>Question /eg/: What merits would I have to take to make my character a ruler of a somewhat sizeable threshold city right out of chargen? I'm thinking Influence 4+, one of Resources/Backing 4+, and Command or Followers. Would that cover it?
Don't know if you're interested in an answer this long after the question was posed, but personally I'd say Influence alone is enough to represent rulership. The thing is, without other Merits everything you have would be tied to your official position. Like, you could draw money from the city's treasury, and doing so to finance a lifestyle befitting a king would probably be cool, but using too much for personal stuff would mean less money for actually running the city and cause resentment among your subjects. Also you'd probably have to deal with some annoying bureaucrat every time you want to buy anything. You could command the city's guards and soldiers without command, but their loyalty would be to their families and homeland rather than you personally: if a civil war was to break out, they might not be on your side.

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>There are people in this thread, right now, who haven't read Kill Six Billion Demons

>>43963713
Ooooh, this I like. The more merits you have, the more the country revolves around you, ad the more benefits you get.

Like Her Redness, who set up her Realm to fail if she was unavailable.

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>>43963836

>>43963983

Might as well be a tagline on every Exalted splatbook.

>>43952670
Reskinned Gray Fox.

>>43962125
Now that's what I call story time.

What is it like living around Sijan or the Medoans?

What's the best Supernal for a Zenith?

>>43966403
What ever fits your character best.
>>43966370
Odd, but you presumably get used to it.

>>43966403
Almost a meaningless question until you tell us the rest of your assumptions.

>>43966403
Melee. Because you should be playing a Dawn instead.

>>43957149
Except the part where she isn't a boy

>>43966495
>shilling for worst caste

>>43966495
Only if you play the most boring games.

>>43962428
I can consider Stealth the defining part of my character, that doesn't mean I feel the compulsion to stealth around all the time forever and the system shouldn't force me to either
That also doesn't mean I need to sneak around trivial people I don't care about and have no chance to spot me just so I can rack up stealth xp to spend on a major Stealth project for sneaking around a guy that really counts

>>43966560
>I can consider Stealth the defining part of my character, that doesn't mean I feel the compulsion to stealth around all the time forever and the system shouldn't force me to either
That is precisely the issue I have with craft, the base assumptions are massively not-fun for so many otherwise valid concepts.

>>43966507
>Except the part where she isn't a boy

>still bullying trans people under the guise of discussing exalted

wow

>>43966624
Don't engage, dude.

>>43966624
Trans people aside, it is an undeniable fact that the right pronoun to use when talking about a Dereth is the one appropriate for his or her chosen gender. This is a cultural thing, the way Delzahn culture works is clear, and calling Prince Diamond 'she' is, in a strictly objective sense, using the wrong pronoun.

>>43966663
but what if I want to duel her and seek to insult her?
That's also a part of how Delzahn culture works

>>43966706
In that case you're pretty stupid since he's a Solar.

>>43966370
Well I think that Sijan wouldn't be that bad because they don't wage war at all.
But the Medoans have warriors (I think they're good at archery?) and could wage war for territory. Which means they bring their ancestors to battle.

>>43966624
The way Delzahn culture is explained has nothing to do with our modenr conception of trans people. Delzahn choose to play outside their birth gender because there's no parity between genders and if you are born a woman but want to be a sailor you have no choice but to get called a man.
Really SJWs rally about this Delzahn and correct pronouns thing without realizing it's the ultimate expression of gender segregation.

>>43966775
Everyone here knows what the Delzahn are, but the point about correct pronouns still stands. Dev commentary says that Prince Diamond would probably be trans in the real world, but that's not relevant.

>>43966798
Well, she isn't a real person, so I choose to call wrong on her (fictional) culture by using the correct pronoun.
If she was a real trans person? Well, "transition" and "sex reassignment" are ludicrous concepts so I'd stil lchoose to call her by the correct pronoun.
That's bullying the way recommending medicine to a sick person is. Transitioning is ill-treated gender dysphoria in violation of the Hippocratic oath. These sick misguided people need therapy, not liberal coddling ,echo chambers and to spend thousands of shekels for the right to be mutilated.
>inb4
Recent studies on brain plasticity show the distinct possibility that gray matter is shaped by our esperience, not the contrary. It changes pattern with something as simple as taking up a meditation regime. It's not the way they are born that makes them trans; they change themselves as a consequence of their choices.

>>43966872
>they change themselves as a consequence of their choices.
Wow, what fucking criminals.

>>43961192
Tensai is the Japanese ideograph for 'genius.'

Lit. "close to heaven"

>>43966872
>Recent studies on brain plasticity show the distinct possibility that gray matter is shaped by our esperience, not the contrary.
That the brain changes with experience is not a recent discovery. It's been known for a while. It doesn't, however, in any way imply that only experience matters. People are shaped by both their genes and their environment - and as far as environment goes, pre- peri- and post-natal environment all matter.

>>43966872
Do you also repeatedly refer to God as a sky fairy and insult people who believe marriage is a serious commitment on the part of both parties?

>>43966928
Yeah, but the different brain zomg stuff was the only leg the argument for a clinical necessity for transitioning stood on.
>>43966904
They aren't criminals, but if a friend told me he really felt like sawing off his left arm, claiming he had no choice in the matter and it was just the way he was born, I'd let him hear a piece of my mind, recommend therapy and possibly try to stop him if I caught him in the act. If he did it I'd never pretend his subsequent social and practical inconveniences are to blame on anything else than his own shitty choices. If he made up some new pronoun for single-armed people... Well I'd probably call him that, because there's no doubt he had a single arm then, while a man who gets a boob job, a truckload of hormones and his penis cut off is still a man with a boob job, serious hormonal imbalances and a horrible insensitive fake vagina.

How does one go about raising Drill for a Battle Group?
I know Tiger Warrior Training Technique says that with the charm it takes a week to go from poor to average, and a month to go from average to elite, but how long does it take without the charm? Just one step up?

Or would it be a series of int+war rolls until a certain number, with an interval of 1 week to get average, and 1 month to get elite?

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>>43967031
I would probably also try to help someone trying to cut off their arm, you're going to have to explain how this is relevant though. Or not, really, I'm not sure why this conversation is happening in /exg/. Picture for off-topic.

>>43966956
Calling me a fedora atheist in place of an actual argument. "Thinly" veiling it so you don't appear to be using a buzzword. 6/10 for effort.
To answer your question, I don't believe in a God so I don't call him at all. No beef with people who choose to believe thouhg, as long as their belief doesn't cause harmful choices to themselves or others.
I believe in marriage as a very useful social contract and yes, it requires maturity and commitment on both parties. I think most men would be happier living as single though.

>>43967031
You sir are an obvious dicktwat and i curse you with gender dysphoria.

>>43967097
>No beef with people who choose to believe thouhg, as long as their belief doesn't cause harmful choices to themselves or others.
So why can't you extend the same respect to people who believe that chopping off their dicks will make them happy?

>>43967031
The primary difference between this is that cutting off your arm hurts you.

Changing their gender only hurts your delicate sensibilities.

>>43967081
Because it started with Prince Diamond and it went a little further.
That cuting arm off thing is the same as transitioning because both are shitty choices, deriving from a psychological problem that should be adressed with therapy and not physical mutilation, and they both carry serious lifelong consequences for you and everyone around you.

>>43967031
>Yeah, but the different brain zomg stuff was the only leg the argument for a clinical necessity for transitioning stood on.
Yes, and plasticity of the brain does not in any way invalidate that argument, unless you can cite studies that focused specifically on plasticity in relation transsexuals and the features that make them the way they are. Human brain is adaptable. This does not mean that everything about it is open to experience-dependent change. Inborn differences are a thing, as are differences that appear during development and don't really change later in life.

>>43967125
All Prince Diamond has to do is stop wearing that gray scarf and dressing as a man and he can go back to being treated as a woman at any time, so all this nonsense you're babbling about doesn't apply.

>>43959741

Waifu sword's first three evocations need a bit of setup, but if you're a socialite learning those intimacies are going to be trival. Secondly, you'll be using them literally every other attack. No Other Blade is a "why would you not ever us this?" charm on decisive attacks once activated, you learn intimacies by damaging an opponent for 3m, and you can use Sunfire Blast to add even more damage.

They need a bit of setup, but once you can use them they instantly become bread and butter. If you're a socialite I can see literally no reason to ever *not* using them when you can, and as situational charms come these are pretty easy to learn.

Other charms have the same suits. Winter Night Cut can be spammed to hell, Cold Moon Slash restores WP on hit making that far easier to spam, there is literally *no* reason not to use Venom Intensifying Stroke if you have Spring Venom (You can even apply poison out of battle if you wish), Black Wind has some windup but rewards you very nicely with Seven Trauma's and Errant Orbit, which are very damn nice attacks that don't cost much.

Evocations have situational bonuses now. I may like the old evocations more (which were dumped mainly because the crew didn't want to make arms with even art 3's have 10 or so), but bread and butter effects still exist.

>>43967115
Harmful to themselves.
>>43967123
Says you.
Because trans people after transitioning are such happy and carefree people. The suicide rates among pre- and post-transitioning people are completely in line with those for the general population.
Aside from that, if you come from a point of "self-harm and mutilation can be good sometimes!"
then I guess we can't really communicate about that.

>>43967183
>Harmful to themselves.
That's your assumption, made on behalf of others, who would often vehemently disagree with you.

Beyond which, the right to make one's own choices is the right to make bad choices.

>>43967064
It should take multiple years minimum.

Holy shit, people, people post their homebrew in here and they're lucky to get a single response. One edgy motherfucker uses the wrong pronouns and makes the entire thread about himself.

>>43959741
>>43967178

Bread-and-butter is more about "could I use this set of Charms as my fighting style exclusively?" and the answer with Evocations is and is intended to be a resounding "Nnnoooo."

Spammability isn't really a factor. You can certainly build your fighting style AROUND your evocations, but the moment "has a cool sword" is substituting for "has Melee Charms," you fucked up.

>>43967123
>Changing their gender only hurts your delicate sensibilities.
To make this even tangentially Exalted-related, the Dereth, even the rare cases who are actually transsexual, don't actually mutilate themselves. If Prince Diamond wanted to change his equipment match his chosen gender, he could no doubt find a sorcerer or a spirit of some sort who could just make him genuinely a biological male.

>>43967208
Sadly, this is hardly unexpected.

>>43967208
Mechanics are hard and complicated, trans issues are also hard and complicated but we have some kind of immediate opinions about them so we imagine they're actually simple and have something reasonable to say about them.

>>43967232
I actually think it's tragic how easy it is. I was going to make a transexual character at one point, before realising that our group's Twilight could solve it in a week or two.

>>43967232
Yeah, trans people really have a chance in Exalted.
Well, if they can pile up money and/or spend the rest of their lives imdebted to a sorcerer.
I wonder if swapping gender would be in the scope of a Terrestrial Working?

>>43967274
You could discuss with your ST that gender swapping is impossible for sorcery, up there with resurreciton and time travel.
If it's for the sake of drama I see no problem with it.

>>43967298
Doesn't leave much of a middle ground though.

>>43967275
>I wonder if swapping gender would be in the scope of a Terrestrial Working?
I'd say so, yeah.

>>43967368
The sad truth of the game is that there's really no middle ground between "impossible because I say so" and "eventually trivial"
Making it Solar Working difficulty wouldn't make it harder, it would make it take longer

>>43967298
>You could discuss with your ST that gender swapping is impossible for sorcery

That's pretty silly. Like, ressurection and time travel I can see. But you can turn a guy's skin to stone, make him bleed scorpions, and also make him ten feet tall and give him wings for a good measure...

But you can't change his piping? I dont' think anyone in the game would be able to take that seriously. That sounds like an arbitrary rule right out of a comedy.

>>43967531
Well if anyone needs an explanation in-setting you could make some shit up about masculine and feminine Essence.
Ultimately in a storytelling game coherence and even suspension of disbelief have to sometimes make concessions to drama.

>>43967531
>But you can turn a guy's skin to stone, make him bleed scorpions, and also make him ten feet tall and give him wings for a good measure...
So not far off turning into a giant praying mantis that bleeds praying mantises then?

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>>43967531
Especially since all it is is a reconstruction of the solidified essence that makes up your body. You can do genderswap with a hearthstone. Lunars with the right knack do it at the snap of a finger. This seems to be more the idea a twat with hangups about it into the real world forces on the game.

>>43967558
What I'm sayings is, that doesn't work for a drama. That makes the game into a comedy. And even not, there's a difference between drama and artificial drama.

Drama is "You can't see your lover because her father will kill you".

Artificial Drama is "You can't see your lover because I said so".

One is dramatic. The other is frustrating at best, and comedic at worst.

All this talk about gender swapping makes me want to convert the sex MA to spite people.

>>43967836
I'd just make it a subset of the duckpunch the Sids have.

>>43967880
Like, what, Sidereals are so good at weird martial arts shit they can punch a girl in the dick?

>>43967880

There is literally no reason to not include gender swapping. We have hearthstones that can do it, so there's no reason sorcery should not be able to.

And no, I don't mean Pattern Spider Touch.

>>43967064
Sorry anon. I doubt you'll ever get an answer for this straight up. Probably need to ask repeatedly on OPP

>>43964956
Thrice Flying Swallow. We're not tools of the Empire, or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing... the only thing I was good at. But... at least I always fought for what I believed in.

>>43966663
>This is a cultural thing, the way Delzahn culture works is clear, and calling Prince Diamond 'she' is, in a strictly objective sense, using the wrong pronoun.
For one particular culture, in the entire world. Delzahn is being a dick by going around forcing its culture on everyone else in Creation.

>>43968319
>They dress, make themselves up as, and act like the gender role they live as
You enjoy just being a twat about this stuff, don't you?

>>43967176
He's talking about real life, not Exalted

>>43968319
>Delzahn is being a dick by going around forcing its culture on everyone else in Creation.
Wait. Wait are you...

Are you serious?

This takes like. Zero effort on your part. You just have to treat them as the gender they prefer. This harms you in no way, shape, or form.

It's like... Walking around in your native dress, which happens to be, I dunno, bear pelt. Unless your people have some very, very strict rules about the nature of bears as clothing, then it's not forcing their culture on you.

>>43968319
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you suggesting this militarily powerful nation is enforcing its cultural norms at the end of a sword? In Exalted? Crazy.

>>43968397
Then he's in the wrong thread.

>>43967199
Disagreeing with him doesn't make them right or him wrong. You're correct that it is a bad choice and people have the RIGHT to make bad choices, but they need to be told that it is a bad choice. They should not be coddled and told it's okay to want that and okay to do it, that it isn't an awful thing.

>>43967274
>"It's tragic that X real world issue isn't an issue in this fantasy world!"
Seriously nigger?

>>43968480
Tragic might have been a bit of a thoughtless word, in hindsight, it's obviously not as tragic as the capacity for it not existing in the real world. What I meant was that the story I wanted to play wasn't possible.

>>43968455
If you want to tell people their choices are bad, you'd better have some hard facts to back that up.

>>43968442
I never said it was uncommon in the setting, I just said it is a dick move.
>>43968438
>just bend over and do what my culture says is right, because I said so
>if you don't I'll fucking murder you

>>43968480
I don't get it either, but some people really enjoy dragging that stuff to the gaming table. As long as everyone's cool with it, it doesn't seem like a problem.

>>43968532
>just bend over and do what my culture says is right, because I said so
Anon, it's not like he's demanding anyone to, I dunno, dress like a Delzahn or celebrate Delzahn holidays or eat Delzahn foods or really do anything any reasonable person could possibly consider even a minor inconvenience.

Refund is in. Thanks to Rich for getting that done. Shame it took the AG contacting him for it to get done.

It looks like he'll be less reticent in the future. If you don't think the crappy art, poor writing, shitty devs, and lack of editing are worth your $165 pledge, now's probably the best time to cash out. An extra $149.50 makes a big difference for Christmas shopping.

>>43968521
You can still tell that story. You just have to spice it up. Make the character have a difficult childhood that made them distrustful of others and maybe reluctant to go with the change.

a lot of trans people don't go for transition irl because of a multitude of factors besides "ithe surgery is unpleasant". Alot of them are afraid.

If, for example, your character or an NPC was a hardcore fighter, somebody who works with their body and was able to achieve what they have due to working their body to perfection, something which strikes me as incredibly solar-ish btw, then it would make sense for them not to want to change their body. Especially if they don't trust people who would offer the chance. In fact playing out the cognitive dissonance of both wanting to do it and not wanting to do it is pretty cool. I'm saying this from experience, I highly recomend it.

>>43968580
I think we're missing the central point of Exalted - playing a character who has every right to impose whatever they want on other people by force and the ancient justification of divine right. You can tell people to believe whatever you tell them and succeed - and, in the limited context of the game cosmos, feel good about it.

>>43967031
Wasn't there a woman in england that got amputated for those reasons and then immediately turned around and said "I'm crippled I need full disability now"?

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>>43967031

>>43966560
>the only point of contention /tg/'s got with Craft is that it's geared towards one very specific style of play

That's what this particular part of the message was alluding to. Thanks for developping on that.

I could answer that the difference in treatment exists for a reason, because Craft naturally tends to slide off-screen if you don't somewhat force it to be on-screen from time to time. It tends to result in the problem where your Crafter ends up with a bunch of narratively capital items they've created that they reveal and display to the world with great awe, but we've never actually had any build up to them because all of the crafting happens off-screen during down-time. You end up with a Crafter you practically never see crafting.

That never happens with Stealth. Or Melee. Or Occult. It's pretty much a Craft Specific thing.

And you can't force the fuck-huge long artifact crafting times on screen, because they're not adapter to the format. Basic Projects on the other hand, the "small" stuff (that still includes at fuckload of useful stuff), they're easy to display in game. They don't take long, they can (actually they must) be very flavorful and have a noticeable narrative impact.

I understand that you just don't want to bother with the small stuff. That's doable with a bunch of charms, is my answer from within the system. You can quite easily reduce the number of Basics you need to do to minimal, but getting absolutely rid of them is hard.

But from a design perspective, I understand why you're frustrated. To people who *want* to play the characters this system wants you to play, it's great. For you, it's really quite bad.

>>43968682
Well, you can also say that said character was once sealed away in a final desperate attempt to prevent the Heatrape Death of the multiverse because of just how unimaginably hard he and his friends had come to abuse said divine right, and there's a lot of people that remember that divine right you had had been wrested from other "greater" beings with even more "divine" a right to it in the first place, so taking you down to take that right right back is not exactly against tradition either.

Just sayin

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>>43967152
But the plasticity of the brain zomg stuff was the only leg his argument for trans people not actually existing stood on!

How to Create a Character like Ludwig? I mean the seamless blending of magic and fight.

3:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPP1e7hOyik

>>43969233

Evocations, easily. He didn't have any magic until he picked up the sword, and all the magic he did cast came from it.

>>43969506
>>43969233
Chimera'd but mostly sane Lunar with an artifact sword.

>>43968702

Not sure about that, but there was a similar case of a woman who poured drain cleaner in her eyes to become blind.

>>43968580
>Anon, it's not like he's demanding anyone to, I dunno, dress like a Delzahn or celebrate Delzahn holidays or eat Delzahn foods

Or, you know, attacking anyone who isnt familiar enough with a foreign country's bizarro culture to realise that aomebody wearing a grey scarf is demanding to be referred to by the opposite pronoun.

>>43970113
You get a polite warning the first time.

If you are a stupid asshole who decides to be a troll, then you get the sword.

Rather effective system.

>>43970135
>two strikes

Not even Britbongians use this dumb a system

>>43970113
Any honor culture is going to be hyperviolent in your direction if you don't know their norms. I'm 100% sure you could get killed by a Delzahn for plenty of other petty shit.

>>43970205
so, genocide the Delzahn?

>>43970113
>to realise that aomebody wearing a grey scarf is demanding to be referred to by the opposite pronoun.

>Still not understanding that a Dereth wears the clothing and uses behavior and culturally acceptable mannerisms of their adopted gender.

>>43970239
So if you see a girl behave like a guy you'll automatically treat her as a guy? Really?

>>43970224

Better yet, conquer them and draft them as auxiliary forces for your army. Might as well put that violent cultural mindset to some good use.

>>43970239

> Still not understanding that the behaviour and cultural mannerisms of a Delzahn mean squat-all to people halfway across Creation from Chiaroscuro.

The fact that some chick is acting all aggressive and martial doesn't necessarily scream "masculine" in all parts of Creation.

>>43970205

Nobody was arguing Delzahn culture wasn't hyperviolent.

People were arguing whether their hyperviolence was justified in the case of others not understanding their customs.

>>43969121
And yet, sandwiched as you are between the oppressors you destroyed and the people who destroy you for oppressing them, you're still treated as the good guys no matter what. Because if you're going to have a standard of right and wrong, it might as well be the one you made yourself and not one made by some other asshole.

>>43970269
>>43970432
>Dressed as a male Delzahn
>Lack of makeup like a female
>Hair like a male
>Doing a male's job

In most of creation you'd probably just think they were a pretty boy, not a girl.

>>43970499
Arguing about whether the cultures of Creation are justified in being shitty is retarded. No, they aren't, Creation sucks, just like the real life cultures and time periods it draws on for inspiration. Luckily, you've got godlike power to change the shit you don't like, like killing people for slights against one's honor, feudalism, slavery, the drug trade, or whatever else. Go hog wild.

>>43970554
>make up
>on a non-patrician
Creation is medieval-ish, make up is rare. Plus, I don't know if every dressed as male Delzahn bind their tits.
Other than that, yes, pretty much.

>>43970665
It's not super rare, not everyone who isn't nobility is poor. Especially if they're merchants or other similar professional types.

>>43970554

> Doing a male's job

What is and is not a "Male's job" not universal across Creation

> Dressed as a male Delzahn

Why would a random person halfway across the world from Delzahn have any conception of what "male" and "female" Delzahn clothing looks like?

>Lack of makeup like a female

Like pretty much every other female in a world without department stores.

> Hair like a male

Hair like a male would be expected to wear in Chiaroscuro, when Chiaroscuro is way the fuck over there.

>>43970788
>Male's job
>Hey you know, this new stud isn't getting any of the slave girls bred at all.
>HOW DARE YOU JUDGE HIS IDENTITY! HE IDENTIFIES AS A MALE, HE IS A MALE!
>But... the job was...
>CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE, HERETIC SCUM!

Has anyone started stripping mechanics out and homebrewing yet or what. I dig some of the mechanical aspects but fucking hell the entire rest of it.

>>43970787
Wealthy merchants are patricians, so yes, they'd have it, professionals and small time merchants shouldn't have it.
I'm talking about actual make up, not facepaint, which is culture specific and therefore not useful in identifying gender. Face paints are very common, especially with tribes.
>>43970884
Everyone and their mom houserules craft, BP/XP and deletes the MA merit. Everything else is fine.
Check out the homebrew folder in the OP.

>I understand that you just don't want to bother with the small stuff. That's doable with a bunch of charms, is my answer from within the system. You can quite easily reduce the number of Basics you need to do to minimal, but getting absolutely rid of them is hard.

>But from a design perspective, I understand why you're frustrated. To people who *want* to play the characters this system wants you to play, it's great. For you, it's really quite bad.

I want to clarify one thing. I'm not against Basic projects being a necessary part of Craft while you prepare for the Big Deal. I don't think Craft should only be about asking the ST for 4 months of downtime so you can deck the party out in Superheavy Plate.

It's the combo of "Basics being forced down your throat by the dozens" and "Basics being totally uninteresting" that troubles me and many others. The game wants me to spend on-screen time on Basics as a prelude to some serious crafting? Make them interesting. Give me ways to set my horseshoes apart from the million horseshoes already existing in Creation. Devote some Charm space for this, instead of that ungodly bloat dedicated exclusively to XP-tinkering, time-cutting and dice-fiddling. If my character has to make Craft part of his legend, make all his crafting stand apart, from Basic to Legendary.

As things stand? The game is telling me Basics and Superiors are worthy for my character but they have as much worth as clicking the big cookie billions of times to buy another Prism. They are more than useful, they are an absolute necessity, but that doesn't make them fun or particularly relevant storywise.

The Cookie Clicker reference is not random. StephenLS actually said Craft feels a lot like CC.

>>43970942

Make-up is also not universally feminine. In real-world history, make-up was used by males in plenty of aristocratic courts

>>43970942
My favourite Craft homebrew is still
>combine book!Major and Basic projects
>rename Superior into new!Major, keep Superior rules
>rename craft experience to bronze/silver/gold because sensical naming a thing
>get craft experience from completing their respective (bronze/basic, silver/new!major, gold/legendary) projects
>remove craft experience finishing requirements, instead give bonuses to their respective craft project rolls

>>43971174
Eh, what bugs me most is that literally every "hurr dereth is terrible" troll runs entirely off the "people have always done things off the sensibilities we have now" fallacy.

>>43971163
Don't point that out, though. Because it was 'totally a joke' and not anything meant to be serious, according to stupid people.

>>43971515
It might even have been a bona fide joke, who knows?
Joke or not, the analogy stands. He shouldn't have called attention to it.
I also happen to know that CK was sometimes discussed with Holden in that IRC channel of his, so maybe he was influenced?

>>43971163
I take it you don't read the OPP forums much around here, but in this instance it might be a good idea to read the latest Craft threads. There's been a whole lot of discussing Craft there, with people that saw Basic projects as worthless and boring the same way you did, but a bunch of people have discussed cool Basic projects they've used in game and tons of ideas for basic projects have been presented. Basically anything that doesn't require more than a day of work is that. Opportunities for interesting basic projects really come up naturally in the course of the game, and help liven up the Crafter's playtime. Meaningless stuff doesn't serve any purpose anyway, because if it's uninteresting and doesn't affect the game it just won't give you XP anyway.

Finally, "forced down our throats by the dozen" is really hyperbolic as fuck. A serious Crafter basically doesn't need more than a couple well thought out Basics per stories to feed his crafting engine. Between the crafting goals, story rewards for the different types of crafting you do, charms and shit, there's really no point when you'd end up going "I want to do a big THING but I'm out of points".

Of course someone less invested in Craft (or less miraculously powerful as a Solar Craftsman - or any Exalted Craftsman really, I expect others have their own tricks in that matter) will do a lot more Basic projects, but then again, if you're not as good, you're naturally not gonna do as many big things and will mostly work on smaller stuff.

>>43971991
No...I've read them. Someone trying to hype up some shitty basic projects doesn't suddenly make busywork cool.

And yes, they are literally forced down our goddamn throat. You want to do ANYTHING with any real meaning, you need silver points. That is the literal definition of fucking forced.

>>43972137
>No...I've read them. Someone trying to hype up some shitty basic projects doesn't suddenly make busywork cool.

Given the variety of stuff that was presented by a bunch of people, I'm surprised nothing found grace to your eyes.

What would interesting Basic Projects look like to you, then? Following the general definition of "anything that doesn't take more than a day of work and doesn't necessitate anything ridiculously fancy", using any craftsmanship you prefer, and in whatever narrative context you like.

>>43972137
>And yes, they are literally forced down our goddamn throat.

Is spending motes "forced down your throat" too then?

Anyway, the hyperbolic part was "by the dozen". Which was what I thought was the central part of that statement. If you wanna call them being a necessary part of the system "being forced down our throat", then yeah, they're forced down our throat. But only a couple per Story is what I meant, no "by the dozen".

The rest of my point is that if you think that couple of Basics out well enough (trying to hit as many goals as possible, which automatically anchors the project to the narrative), then they don't feel like they're "forced down your throat" anymore because they're an enjoyable part of the story.

>>43972374
>Is spending motes "forced down your throat" too then?

Yes. If you don't want to spend motes as an Exalt, you're pretty much screwed. The difference is, there's nothing really contentious about spending a resource to trigger special abilities, so nobody cares.

>>43972812
There shouldn't be anything contentious about Craft needing a special treatment either. It's been established why it's necessary.

>>43972893
No, it hasn't, for fuck's sake.

Why is it 'necessary' to have silver points to make a goddamn sword? Nothing super fancy. A bit of sharp steel that won't break when you poke it in someone.

There's no reason to have it be gated behind some sort of weird XP system. Higher ups, sure, but not something like that.

>>43972893

No, it really hasn't been established that Craft needs five times as many charms, and ten times as much book-keeping, and fifty times as many rolls, as any other ability in the book.

If it had, people wouldn't be bitching about it.

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>>43973022
Craft has 55; Brawl has 47, MA have over 80. There are literally hundreds of Charms for punching people in the face; why can't there be 55 for building shit?

>>43972976
Why is it 'necessary' to have silver points to make a goddamn sword? Nothing super fancy.

A sword IS super-fancy, in a Bronze Age setting. That's why nobles carried them and ordinary soldiers carried spears.

>>43973411
Pull the dev's fucking cock out of your fucking mouth for half a goddamn second.

But fine, cocksucker, replace it with spear or whatever the fuck.

And answer the fucking question. Why are basic weapons gated? Why is it hard for PCs to make basic weapons? They'll get them anyway, and there's no real story 'fun' to be had there. Just grind out the stupid silver points so they can do what they actually fucking want.

Why do the OPP forums have an upvote system?

>>43973670
It's a requirement for the total 'hugbox' experience.

>>43973411
>>43973022
I've explained this upthread but I'll do it again :

Craft has a tendency to fall off-screen as the better you are at it the more you'll want to build amazing things and the longer the things you want to build will take to build (culminating with Artifacts that can sometimes take decades to make). You end up with a crafting character that sports all these great products of his craft, but that you never see crafting. That doesn't happen with other abilities because other abilities tend to work within the time frame of a role-playing game session, even in their most powerful expressions.

So you have to force crafting back on screen somehow. But you can't force the long, important crafting on screen because it doesn't fit within the time-frame of a session of even multiple sessions of in-game time. That's why it naturally tends to fall off-screen to begin with, remember? What you can easily integrate into playtime is the smaller things, though.

As I run my games, a Story will generally last anything from 3 to 6 sessions and sessions can last anything from 3 to 6 hours. Even in the shortest stories I run, that's still 9 hours of playtime. A basic project takes all of a couple minutes to sort out, provided the player knows what he's doing, what ressources he's using, and what goals he's hitting. A short description and a couple rolls are all it takes. The goals automatically anchor the project into the narrative, it adds to the story and doesn't take too long, and suddenly you've got a Crafter that does Crafting on screen that matters but doesn't take ages to do it. The big important things they Craft don't feel like they're being pulled out of their ass anymore, because we see them Crafting stuff all the time, not just in passing during downtime ellipsis.

>>43973781
Yes, we read what you shat out, dumbass.

The thing is, perhaps, just maybe...we don't agree with that, and feel it in no way necessitates an 'establishment of special requirements'.

Yes, you have fun with it, enjoy.

But you don't HAVE TO FORCE CRAFT BACK ON SCREEN. If the Player WANTS TO, they can fuss around with basic projects or what have you. A choice is almost always better then a stupid hamfisted requirement like this.

>>43973781

> So you have to force crafting back on screen somehow

And as I've explained before, if that was the goal, it failed. As a Solar crafter, it's not that hard for your artifact-crafting to be entirely self-sustaining, simply from the XP gained for having excess intervals.

Basic crafting is it's own reward - just like an investigator finding a clue, or a social person determining someone's intimacies, building something that helps the party advance the narrative doesn't need to be incentivized by handing out silver xp carrots - the crafter's going to do that sort of thing anyway.

Unless he's just in it for the mass-production of powerful artifacts, in which case, he won't do it whether wave silver xp under his nose or not - munchkin's going to munchkin.

More time should have spend coming up with an enjoyable system, instead of trying to skinner-box people into playing the game the "right way".

>>43973472
Making a spear is a Basic project. Making a dozen spears is a basic project. Hell, if you've been provided with pre-forged heads and clean shafts, assembling a couple hundred spears is a basic project.

Those will be shitty infantry spears, and chance is they wont survivre very long in the crash of battle, but that's basic spears for you.

For other weapons, I could easily see a jury-rigged version with the Improvised tag as an easy Basic project. Roll up a band of cloth around the lower half of a piece of broken metal, make an Improvised knife. Bamboo spears are stupidly easy to make. Need horses to cross a river? Improvise a bridge.

Basic projects aren't just horseshoes.

>>43973911
Nope. Explicitly, full stop, all weapons are Majors. Every last one.

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>>43973472
>Pull the dev's fucking cock out of your fucking mouth for half a goddamn second.

But it's so delicious!

>Why are basic weapons gated?
>Why is it hard for PCs to make basic weapons?

Because they're not basic. Swords are awesome; they're the weapons of kings and champions, and they deserve not to be something you crap out thoughtlessly. Or to put it in my character's words:

“I am the greatest weaponsmith in the Hundred Kingdoms. One blade from my forge is enough to reduce lesser masters to tears. It is the purest killing intent of its wielder; it flows like an extension of his arm; its edges are the hardest steel known to man; its core is soft iron that twists around the shield of an enemy to pierce his flesh.

And you want me to mass-produce a thousand piece of shit metal sticks for your conscripted farmers? Men who can't even tell which end to hold, who hope for an easy patrol and a cold beer instead of glory?

Get out of my sight.”

>>43973872
>The thing is, perhaps, just maybe...we don't agree with that, and feel it in no way necessitates an 'establishment of special requirements'.

Then you can houserule it in your games, and I hope you enjoy your houserules. Doesn't require you shitting on us for enjoying the RAW anyway.

>>43973946
>Nope. Explicitly, full stop, all weapons are Majors. Every last one.

No, you're wrong. See Minton's blog post: https://ericminton.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/exalted-3e-the-basicmajor-project-divide/

>>43973990
Minton is directly, DIRECTLY, contradicted by the book. I like the guy, but his word against the book, the book wins.

And...your character sounds like a pretentious faggot, really. Just because he doesn't want to do something doesn't mean others should be prevented or gated from it.

And FWI, we only started 'shitting' on you after you started on us for not liking how craft RAW is a clusterfuck. Don't try to change history.

>>43973946
>Citation needed
Don't worry, I got you covered though :

• Basic projects are the simplest tasks a craftsman can
undertake, such as making a chair, forging basic tools,
shoeing a horse, cooking a meal, or fletching an arrow.
They normally demand little from the character in time
or crafting materials.
• Major projects are significant endeavors within a craftsman’s
trade. They include forging battle-ready arms and
armor, preparing a banquet fit for a prince’s table or a god’s
festival, or sculpting a statue. They place a significant burden
on the character in terms of time, materials, or both.

Oh wait. Were you alluding to that?
>forging battle-ready arms and armor

Here's something to consider :
You don't forge a bamboo spear. You don't forge an entire spear either, you only forge the heads. And even then, that's descriptive, not prescriptive. "They include". The prescriptive bit :
>They place a significant burden on the character in terms of time, materials, or both.
Making a speak does not take a lot in times or materials. Making a simple knife doesn't either. Making a sword does, because it's a quite long, involved process in a world where metalurgy isn't very advanced at all.

Basic projects "normally demand little from the character in time or crafting materials". Improvised weapons clearly fall into this category. As do a shit ton of potentially useful stuff.

But maybe you're building your claim on something stronger than what I think. So considering the text I've quoted, why exactly aren't the examples I presented not valid in your eyes?

>>43974087
>Minton is directly, DIRECTLY, contradicted by the book. I like the guy, but his word against the book, the book wins.

See here >>43974162 for what the book says.

Is the mass production thing the big hang up here? Is it just that nobody wants to do bookkeeping for their unlimited blade works?

Why do you even want to make all those swords by yourself? You're a man, not a machine. You're a champion of the Unconquered Sun. You've got bigger and better things to do than personally forge every single sword for your legion of expendable mooks.

So you forge 10 or 20 swords manually to get a feel for the process, then you build an artifact that shits one out every hour. Alternatively, you train a bunch of mortals to mass produce swords while you draw up plans for a warstrider.

If you just wanna be the sword maker guy who spends all his time forging swords, why aren't you playing D&D?

>>43974438
>then you build an artifact that shits one out every hour.
There are long happy periods of time where I forget that people play the game like this.

>>43974438
>Why do you even want to make all those swords by yourself?

Because artifact-shitting machines don't generate gold xp to keep you on the Crafting treadmill. It doesn't matter if you have 5 dots in Crafting, if you don't continue to poop out swords yourself, personally, you'll never be able to fend off your ennui long enough to gather the inspiration to forge Excalibur.

>>43974438
Honestly, a very good archetype of a mortal character that works with the Craft system would be the Weaponsmith with a specialty.

So Smithy McWeaponscraft really fucking loves making Scimitars. In his daily life as head of the army smithy, he does a whole bunch of stuff. Sometimes he helps out with a big batch of infantry spears, because that's part of his job, and he can't just stay in his workshop all day, and those country smiths need the lessons. Most of the time he works on the finer stuff, but mostly stuff that doesn't take much time : he's got the whole smithy to manage, so he can't get too focussed on one thing. So he's gonna accrue a whole bunch of Silver XP off that, because that's a lot of potential basic projects. He's got a few majors on the fires, and his pet project, a private comission for the Sultan, the finest scimetar he's ever crafted.

Now make that dude a Twilight. He's much more competent, can afford to craft on the go, will naturally encounter situations where he can stick in a Basic and earn a bunch of silver xp, doesn't have to do so more than a couple time every three sessions to function, can focus on more important projects while still managing his smithies efficiently because Twilights have Bureaucracy, and teaching apprentices because Twilights have Lore too.

>>43973723
All it really does is make a few select members of the community look untouchable because they have an entourage that will hunt down and upvote every post they make, scaring off new members because why bother participating in discussions when your voice won't matter as much as everyone else's?

>>43974804
Yes, exactly. Self-enforcing Hugbox.

>>43974873
>>43974804
How the fuck does one get so cynical? Seriously, "thanks" features exist on a whole bunch of forums. Not everything is a sign of heretical hugbox depravity.

>>43954540 's pic related.

>>43974954
I'm not trying to be cynical, it's just that I always see basically the same 5 posters get likes no matter what they post and I feel like it could be intimidating for newcomers.

>>43975217

You have a phenomenally shitty opinion of newcomers. If Likes rearranged the posting order like it does on leddit, then yeah you'd have a point, but on a regular-ass forum format people barely notice them.

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If my character's three primary Abilities are going to be Martial Arts, Awareness, and Dodge, which of the three would I be better off Supernal-ing? I like MA, but it seems like I'll unlock the majority of my Style's Charms at Ess 2, so a big tree like Awareness or Dodge that I'll use in every fight would be good.

>>43977001
Are you a Dawn or a Night?
If Dawn, Martial Arts is the only option.
If Night, it depends; is your character known for their impressive attention to their surroundings, or for never getting hit?

Don't pick your Supernal based on mechanics. It defeats the entire point of the system.