Why are the Imperial Fists the greatest chapter?

>>43913541
>Dorn's finest moment.png

>>43913541
I don't have read much about them, and i am by far no expert on 40k fluff, but to me they always appear like the ultimate dedicated defenders.
They don't care much about mowing things down in the name of the emperor, as long as it's not actively coming at them. Then they show everyone else how the job is done.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i see them as the indestructible yellow brickwall of Terra.

>>43914794
You've got it right. It's that they are the greatest of humanities defenders.

Also, they created the greatest successor chapter. Black Templars FTW!

>>43914858
>Black Templars FTW!
Which are ironically the guys that don't stop moving and can't wait to go somewhere and roll over some heretics and xenos like a black wave of whirling blades. Though that's exactly what makes them so different from all the other successors, i guess.

>>43913541
I love how Bolter/Devastator squad heavy their army builds are based off Disciplined Fire in 30k and Chapter Tactics in 40k. Also at the moment they have with some success stopped Iron Warriors and Be'Lakor (who's supposedly stronger than Abaddon and the Daemon Primarchs) from desecrating their Fortress Monastery.

File: Sigismund.jpg (61KB, 300x750px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 300x750px

>>43915215
I think that might be a result of the personality of Sigismund, the chapter's founder. He was known of rushing almost headlong into battle with little regard of his own safety. Besides, he and Kharn grew close and even considered each other 'oath brothers'.

>>43913541
Because they liberated the most worlds, fixed the Imperium in the wake of the Heresy, run a successful empire of their own, form the cornerstone of Marine chapters, their primarch wrote the book on how to be a Marine, supply the Imperium with not just Marines, but Guard regiments even when they don't have to, and their codex in 2e pretty much says they're the best.

Oh, wait, you were talking about Fists. Nevermind.

>>43915628
Ebin, now we just need some IW shitposting

Because they totally succeed in defending the imperial palace and protecting the emperor.

>>43915628
Marneus Calgar the supposed best Chapter Master couldn't even beat weak ass M'Kar without a plot device. Imperial Fists are doing fine holding back Be'Lakor who's MUCH stronger.

>>43915698
Using only their 3rd company, did they not?

File: God-emperor-of-mankind-retired.jpg (647KB, 600x849px) Image search: [Google]

647KB, 600x849px

>>43915670
Yeah, thanks for that. Imagine if you weren't there for me.

>>43915698
So, Fists just needed 999 more dudes to do what one dude with a plot device could do?

>>43915754
Yeah.

>>43915849
Nah they only have one company doing MORE than what some prick couldn't even do half assed without the help of a plot device. M'kar aint shit and Calgar struggled. Be'Lakor is above Abaddon and Doombreed with probably only Horus with all Chaos gifts being above him.

>>43915670
If they hadn't Horus wouldn't have needed to bait Emps out of the palace to do battle with him.

FACT:

Sigismund was the strong Crusade/pre-Heresy SM.

Abbadon 2nd and maybe Azkaellon or Sevarar 3rd.

Yeah if you like Shitty Chapters.

>>43918313
It is this way in 30k Tabletop. But is it canon?

>>43918422
Nigga get outta here IF is like the best Loyalist chapter alongside Salamanders and maybe Blood Angels. IF is the true symbol of loyalty above any other chapter/legion.

>>43918242
Yeah he'd just kill Emps in the Palace.

What a twist.

The IF embody what the Space Marines were suppose to be in a way no other chapter can match.

Not even the smurfs.

File: Dorn at his finest.png (52KB, 906x400px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 906x400px

>>43913614

>>43918510
Sigismund was the greatest swordsman in the entire galaxy. Period. That's it. He's literally so autistic and god-like at swordsmanship that he can actually go Toe to Toe with primarchs, and stand a reasonable chance of holding his own.

This is true in both the fluff and in the game, where he can stay in combat with primarchs and quite literally hold his ground against them. Well, except Horus. Horus is a walking space-marine sized ball of FUCK EVERYTHING that not even Sigismund can put up with. There's not a single primarch in the entire game that can fight him,

But he was an unimaginably shitty person, who was awful at everything the Imperial Fists were good at.

>>43914858
>>43915215
>>43919201
Is it weird that I fucking hate the Imperial Fists but love the Black Templars?

>>43919246
Enjoy, because Sigismund was the founder of the Black Templars. They all take after his super autistic personality.

Daily reminder that unlike the Imperium Secundus building Guilliman, Dorn and his sons fought and died beside the Emperor on Terra.

>>43913541
that bullet casing is fuckin tiny

best chapter is charcaradons...god knows the shit they get up 2 out there in the void.

>>43915670
They did succeed in protecting the palace, as for the emperor dying that wasnt really their fault as Dorn ended up on the end of the flagship and it was the emperors will to go fight horus 1v1 not the fists.

>>43913541
Because the Imperial Fingers just don't get the job done for most Sororitas.

>>43919861

Ultrafags not even joining in on the greatest battle of 30-40k history; still try claim they are the greatest.

Give me my real loyalists any day.

>>43913541
They aren't.

>>43918510
I'm a huge fists fan and I agree with your list except for I think the dark angels are actually pretty goddamn loyal and should be mentioned and before you all go like 'dangels... loyal... wat' consider the following: lion was confronted by a lord of change who couldn't find shit on him to convert him to chaos, lion knew from the watchers in the dark that half his legion was falling to chaos during the heresy but saw it as a necessary risk to protect the emperor the dude was willing to risk his honour and legion to save his father and his imperium, during the crusade his legion made a huge sacrifice in the galactic north to maintain imperial control, when other chapters have their marines converted to chaos they just kill them whereas the dark angels drag you to a dank gothic cell and torture your balls off with a psychopathic chaplain for weeks trying to make you repent, because the dark angels know their souls are capable of evil they're better at managing heretics from within with the highest level scrutiny and if they find any sign of impurity in their men next thing you know he's being dragged down to the bowels of the rock never to be seen again by his brothers effectively making them purer than the grey knights, and in the end the dark angels had the worse outcome from the heresy: they lost their primarch, half their legion to chaos, their homeworld, were forced to manage a huge secret or get excommunicated, and almost always fight alone with no hope of reinforcements, rememberance but continue to spit defiance it darkness's eye and fight for the emperor and his imperium.

>>43919916
I'm arguing for imperial fists... Or are you supporting me? CLARIFY YOUR STANCE BATTLE BROTHER

>>43915400

You think that Keeler's revelation and visions to Sigismund and Dorn reaction to them has to do anything with the BT feelings about psyker?

>>43919246
I remember going through that phase, my favourite chapters now are Imperial Fists and Dark Angels. Partial to Blood Angels and Ultramarines though.

File: IF_Templarbrethren2.png (394KB, 800x518px) Image search: [Google]

394KB, 800x518px

>>43915215
that's not really that ironic, since during the Crusade the Fists themselves were characterized by constant movement, picking up new recruits as they went and occasionalyl leaving maybe a castellan and a few warriors behind as garrison. So, not too different from the Templars or pre-Rynn's World Crimson Fists. The idea of the Fists as "walls, the chapter" is mostly memetic in nature; they've always been a mobile bunch that just excels in defensive warfare as a byproduct of constant war-drill and siege experience.

>>43921621
They were the finest defenders in the imperium though, and the ones Big E chose to bring back as a palace guard legion

It's just that legions were big enough that they could excel in multiple things, and were flexible in their strategies - the Fists, for example, were also very good at void warfare, with a huge fleet, though they had less bigass capital ships (minus the Phalanx) than several legions, even ones that didn't specialise in void warfare.

Main point is that legions are not 100% one-note

>>43921787
Yes and no, even though imperial fists are the best at defense of the astartes, they've done some pretty goddamn awesomely bad ass shit on the offence too, so while I agree with you that they are more known for being great defenders they are also superb on the offence plus they are a fleet based chapter that brings the emperors wrath across the imperium which screams offence rather than defense so therefore they shouldn't be known for just defenders. All in all they're a pretty well rounded first founding chapter.

>>43922013
except infiltration, i doubt the fists would be good at that, probably better than space wolves but worse than raven guard or dark angels for sure.

>>43919877
Good thing they are fists not fingers.

>>43922270
Yes thank you that was the joke.

File: anontalkstoanautist.png (9KB, 488x265px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 488x265px

>>43919151

>>43922037
Yeah, it's hard to hide when you're bright yellow
yes I know marines have camo, even though you see it once in a blue moon

>>43923097
>>43922037
"Camoflage is the color of cowardice"
They are the Sons of Dorn and their armor will shine as bright as the sun

>>43921621
>The idea of the Fists as "walls, the chapter" is mostly memetic

Try read I am Slaughter.
Fits are literally "walls, the chapter."

>>43918510
>IF is the true symbol of loyalty above any other chapter/legion.
>>43919433
>Daily reminder that unlike the Imperium Secundus building Guilliman, Dorn and his sons fought and died beside the Emperor on Terra.
>>43919916
>Give me my real loyalists any day.

I want this meme to end. The Ultramarines were most loyal of all.

>>43926267
Ultramarines were the last to arrive at Terra and almost skipped out completely on the single biggest conflict in 40k history had it not been for Lion and Sang to convince Gilly to do otherwise.

>>43926267
How? Ultramarines get their shit wrecked at Calth, almost have their Primarch lose to freaking Kor Phaeron, and then instead of actually helping out in the big fight decide to save face through Imperium Secundus. If it wasn't for Lion and Sanguinius Rowboat would've gone down as a traitor.

The Imperial Fists fought alongside the Emperor and were loyal to the very end, and this is despite some of the shit they have had to go through. They got a massive Calth level hit, too when they got trolled by the Iron Warrior fortress thing, but they didn't save face and have their tails between their legs afterwards; they still continued to fight.

File: 184ca3a0c4bdac8782ba6440700f4f44.jpg (73KB, 636x900px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 636x900px

>Imperial Fists the greatest chapter
>The Iron Cage
Pick one

Death to the false emperor!

>>43923411
They hide by blinding the enemy!

>>43929682
Dorn went into the Iron Cage knowing it was a trap, his manliness overshadowed his brainz, he even almost killed Pert but he was interrupted by radio. And then yknow the ultramarines came in and stuff... I wouldn't look down on either side for the Iron Cage though it was a pretty goddamn awesome fight for everyone.

>>43929682

>Still harping on about a single siege from the heresy

Iron Warriors confirmed for irrelevant

File: 4354356.jpg (84KB, 490x401px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 490x401px

>>43913541
Because they're kind enough to fill our shell craters with their bodies.

>>43930464
Not even from the Heresy, it was after.
You know, after the traitors lost.

>>43930533
If you call the loss of the Emperor and the decay of his Imperium into a corrupt, superstitious, and collapsing ruin of an empire a victory then I suppose Chaos lost. I'd ask the loyalist Primarchs what they think about it, but I find it difficult to talk with the dead.

>>43930453
>pretty goddamn awesome fight for everyone.
The Imperial Fists lost so much in that fight, I doubt they'd call it awesome.

Pert ascended to Daemonhood because of that too.

Iron Warriors won that fight in a big way.

>>43930705
This anon is right. The imperium turned out exactly like the chaos gods wanted.

>>43926267
They were loyal, but by no means "the most loyal of all" - that's an honour that goes to either the Fists or the Yiffs (who unfortunately were so loyal they didn't even question orders, at all)

>>43926267
>The Ultramarines were most loyal of all.
So, explain Gigabyte's plans for Imperium Secondus? Smells like Heresy to me.

>>43930492

And you were kind enough to kill 10,000 of your own men the moment you met them.

>>43913541

Because they died to a man to slow the advance of Waaagh! The Beast. And those Orks were more like Space Uruk Hai.

>They were armoured in metals and hides, but the armour was nothing like as crude as he had imagined it would be. Hauberks and shoulder guards were expertly woven from steel wire and reinforced animal skin or synthetic fibre fabrics. Seams were precise. The level of ornamentation was marvellous. Shields were studded and curved for impact resilience, and some of them smoked with heat and ozone, revealing they were self-powered with built-in kinetic fields. The weapons, clamped in prodigious fists, were the immense, burnished cleavers and swords of frost giants, not the crude blades of ogres. The huge-calibre firearms were of eccentric design yet superb craftsmanship.

>>43931130
Purging the weak allows the strong to rise to their full potential. Ever wonder why the World Eaters and Word Bearers slaughtered so many Ultramarines? Space Marines are the greatest humans, Iron Warriors are the best Space Marines because Perturabo was willing to pay the price.

loving every chapter/legion is just a phase

>>43931159
What is this? Smart Orks?

>>43913541
The Fists and the Space Wolves are the most loyal, so they're both pretty based in my mind.

>>43930779
The Iron Cage was supposed to be the final battle to the bitter fucking end that both the IF and the IW wanted. It wasn't about winning or losing, it was about sating the hatred each had for the other. The way things were going, the IF were going to go down in history as having gone to their deaths without fear or doubt, fighting to the bitter, stupid end, alongside their gene-father, because that's what Astartes do. That's what they were built for, trained for.

Then the Smurfs arrived and fucked it up.

Smurfs: HAY GUIZE WE'RE HERE TO RESCUE YOU KEKEKEK
>WHAT THE FUCK
Fists:...Thanks for your assistance, cousins.
>YOU FUCKING COCKSUCKERS
Fists: I guess we'll just stop fighting these traitorous Iron Warriors, then
>HOW DARE YOU KEEP US FROM A GLORIOUS DEATH
Fists: Oh look, they're fucking off back to wherever the rest of the traitors went.
>YOU GODDAMN ASSHOLE ULTRAMARINES

>>43923086
It feels precisely one iota better than being beaten to death by the rest of your squad

>>43929522
>The Imperial Fists fought alongside the Emperor and were loyal to the very end, and this is despite some of the shit they have had to go through. They got a massive Calth level hit, too when they got trolled by the Iron Warrior fortress thing, but they didn't save face and have their tails between their legs afterwards; they still continued to fight.

>conveniently forgetting about the huge-ass warpstorm that cut off Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves from the Battle of Terra

>>43915215

Is there a chapter that hates heresy more than the Black Templars?

>>43913541
Because they have shiny colours.. Well actually Knights of Gryphonne is the best chapter... But meh, orange is not the new black to GW :/

>>43932053
It cut off the Blood Angels too and they still managed to turn up

>>43932965
This; it's not like the warpstorms weren't affecting everyone; some legions just were moire badass than others.

>>43932999
warp storms are basically just a random die roll, though

>>43933043
Nah psychic primarch ftw

File: Ultra Staunch.jpg (114KB, 902x601px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 902x601px

>>43929423
No evidence of this.

>>43929522
>How? Ultramarines get their shit wrecked at Calth

They won at Calth after the enemy held all the Cards.

>If it wasn't for Lion and Sanguinius Rowboat would've gone down as a traitor.

How?

>The Imperial Fists fought alongside the Emperor and were loyal to the very end

The Imperial Fists were turtling on Terra that's why they were there.

>They got a massive Calth level hit, too when they got trolled by the Iron Warrior fortress thing

That happened after the Heresy and they were saved by the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines were everywhere fighting after the Heresy.

>>43930958
>They were loyal, but by no means "the most loyal of all"

Incorrect. The Ultramarines were the staunchest of all the Emperor's legions.

>>43931096
>So, explain Gigabyte's plans for Imperium Secondus?

To rally loyal forces in case Terra was ever lost.

>>43933607
>They won at Calth after the enemy held all the Cards.
What? No. The Ultramarines lost almost half their forces with the Word Bearers having nothing even close to that as loses. It is only because Kairos Fateweaver told Lorgar that Roboute needs to come out of Calth alive that the Ultramarines have anything close to a "win".

>How?
>Let me go create a second Imperium instead of helping the first while the Emperor's still alive
Yeah real nice idea. Anyone else who even tries anything close to what Roboute did here gets branded some kind of traitor or another. Hell, have you read the Assassin comic that's popular on 40k threads here? The guy was trying to create another Imperium, and freaking Assassins were sent after him.

>The Imperial Fists were turtling on Terra that's why they were there.
The Imperial Fists were everywhere including Terra.

>That happened after the Heresy and they were saved by the Ultramarines.
How were they saved by the Ultramarines?

>The Ultramarines were everywhere fighting after the Heresy.
AFTER the Heresy yes. AFTER all the damage had already been done.

>>43933818
>What? No. The Ultramarines lost almost half their forces

And defeated the Word Bearers there.
They would go on to push them out of Ultramar and into the Eye of Terror.
Indisputably the Ultramarines won.

>>Let me go create a second Imperium instead of helping the first while the Emperor's still alive
>Yeah real nice idea.

It was. Ultramar was completely cut off so worst case protocols were initiated.

>Anyone else who even tries anything close to what Roboute did here gets branded some kind of traitor or another. Hell, have you read the Assassin comic that's popular on 40k threads here? The guy was trying to create another Imperium, and freaking Assassins were sent after him.

People creating their own Empires by breaking off from the Imperium is considered wrong.
Guilliman keeping Imperial rule despite being forcibly broken off form, the Imperium is not.

>The Imperial Fists were everywhere including Terra.

Nope, they were on Terra with perhaps some token presence elsewhere. They were the turtles of the GC, more interested in building walls than pursuing the Emperor's dream.

>How were they saved by the Ultramarines?

The Ultramarines arrived at the Iron Cage and managed to save the Fists form certain demise.

>AFTER the Heresy yes. AFTER all the damage had already been done.

That's wrong. The traitors were in retreat after the death of Horus, but they weren't beaten. Read up on the scouring. The loyalists, primarily Ultramarines, swept through the galaxy, pushing the traitors back. Most eventually fled to the safety of the Eye of Terror and did not dare raise their hand to the Imperium for many years after.

>>43934012
How blue is your mouth?

I only ask because it must be pretty blue with the amount of smurf dick and balls that you have managed to fit inside.

>>43934141
Pls accept defeat a little more graciously, senpai.

>>43934012
>And defeated the Word Bearers there.
>They would go on to push them out of Ultramar and into the Eye of Terror.
>Indisputably the Ultramarines won.

No they didn't. The Word Bearers pulled out. The Word Bearers have minuscule loses compared to the Ultramarines, and didn't push forward because they were TOLD NOT TO.

>It was. Ultramar was completely cut off so worst case protocols were initiated.
As mentioned already in this topic others like the Blood Angels were also cut off but managed to help in the Siege of Terra.

>People creating their own Empires by breaking off from the Imperium is considered wrong.
Guilliman keeping Imperial rule despite being forcibly broken off form, the Imperium is not.
Sanguinius managed to not only keep Guilliman's bullshit at bay with the Imperium Secundus, but also managed to make it to the Siege of Terra to help. Guilliman's commitment and loyalty is trash.

>Nope, they were on Terra with perhaps some token presence elsewhere. They were the turtles of the GC, more interested in building walls than pursuing the Emperor's dream.
This is not true. You're describing the Word Bearers here not the Imperial Fists. The Emperor liked the Fists so much that he actually fought with them during the GC.

>The Ultramarines arrived at the Iron Cage and managed to save the Fists form certain demise.
Bullshit. The damage done to the IFs there was already done and could not have been reversed.

>That's wrong. The traitors were in retreat after the death of Horus, but they weren't beaten. Read up on the scouring. The loyalists, primarily Ultramarines, swept through the galaxy, pushing the traitors back. Most eventually fled to the safety of the Eye of Terror and did not dare raise their hand to the Imperium for many years after.
No shit the Ultramarines played a big part here cuz outside Calth (where they were forcibly involved by the Word Bearers) none of their other armies were even involved in the Horus Heresy.

>>43934410
>No they didn't. The Word Bearers pulled out.

Those left planetside were exterminated in the Underworld.
Kor Phaeron was ran off and ended up in the Maelstrom.
Lorgar was pushed from Terra.

>As mentioned already in this topic others like the Blood Angels were also cut off but managed to help in the Siege of Terra.

And we've yet to see how that happens. As it currently stands you cannot leave Ultramar. But they will have a plot device to get out eventually.

>Sanguinius managed to not only keep Guilliman's bullshit at bay with the Imperium Secundus

Sanguinius did nothing except become a reluctant Emperor.

>managed to make it to the Siege of Terra to help.

And we don't know how.

>This is not true. You're describing the Word Bearers here not the Imperial Fists.

Nope. Fists were on Terra building the palace while other loyalist Legions fought and bled against the Traitors.

>Bullshit. The damage done to the IFs there was already done and could not have been reversed.

Yes, the Fists were badly mauled. Without the intervention of the Ultramarines they would be extinct.

>No shit the Ultramarines played a big part here cuz outside Calth (where they were forcibly involved by the Word Bearers) none of their other armies were even involved in the Horus Heresy.

Not true. They lost half their Legion on Calth in moments because of treachery. But they fought back and defeated their enemy across the entire Imperium by the time the scouring was done.

>>43934577
All I hear are excuses for not being the most loyal... muh I'm the most loyal yet can't make it to the decisive battle.

Muh you guys didn't even crusade! When they did; yes there was a garrison of if on terra during the entire gc building the palace but shit son it's the capital why wouldn't you have some praetorians? Doesn't mean the phalanx wasn't rocking round crusading away.

Muh we saved the if at the iron cage. Really all you did was stop a battle of attrition that would of ended with both sides wiped out or reduced to levels making them no longer combat effective; which probably would of ended in favor of the Imperium as even if only Dorn Survives he can remake his legion from Terra and the geneseed stocks.

Muh we lost half our legion in a surprise attack; well shit son what does that say for your codex astartes can't be the be all and end all of warfare can it now as you weren't even prepared for internal strife let alone reacted very well when it occurs.

Wah wah wah warpstorms stopped me. Well sucks to be your sucks ships when at least 2 other legions manage to make it through.

Hey I like the ultramarines but fags like you need to get off their cocks and realize that they are just as flawed as every other legion.

It's like saying that the Roman army was the best, had no faults and could never lose.

>>43934577
>Those left planetside were exterminated in the Underworld.
>Kor Phaeron was ran off and ended up in the Maelstrom.
>Lorgar was pushed from Terra.

Leaving lots of details out here. Again, Ultramarines lost A LOT MORE MEN than the Word Bearers did. The Word Bearers did the damage they sought out to do. Lorgar was never trying to push into Terra that's some bullshit you made up. Kor Phaeron ran off because: he fought Guilliman and had him at his mercy. Due to orders he wasn't allowed to kill him (remember what Fateweaver said), so he tried to use an Anatheme shard to corrupt Guilliman. Guilliman ripped out his heart. Kor Phaeron either 1. Kills Guilliman and ruins the plan or 2. Lets him go and retreats and the plan Fateweaver and Chaos had goes on

>Sanguinius did nothing except become a reluctant Emperor.
He stopped Imperium Secundus from becoming another heretical thing and THEN went BACK to Terra unlike Guilliman and his Ultramarines who didn't do shit, then proceeded to show up during the Scouring and looked cool beating down weakened Chaos soldiers.

>And we don't know how.
>And we've yet to see how that happens. As it currently stands you cannot leave Ultramar. But they will have a plot device to get out eventually.
Sanguinius met Guilliman then went to Terra. Stop making bullshit excuses your bias is pathetic.

>Nope. Fists were on Terra building the palace while other loyalist Legions fought and bled against the Traitors
Yeah just keep ignoring the Phalanx like it ever existed and the fact that the Emperor himself fought beside them in the Crusade.

>Without the intervention of the Ultramarines they would be extinct.
How? What did the Ultramarines do? The Imperial Fists did most of the fighting to the fortress. Get trapped in the Iron Cage losing a fuck ton of enemies. Then it's done. Ultramarines didn't do any saving. There was nothing left to save.

>>43934577
>Not true. They lost half their Legion on Calth in moments because of treachery. But they fought back and defeated their enemy across the entire Imperium BY THE TIME THE SCOURING WAS DONE
The only time they did fight back successfully, and only because the other Legions both Traitor and Loyalist had spent resources and were weakened cuz they actually fought during the Heresy.

>>43935038
>All I hear are excuses for not being the most loyal

They are stated to be.

>can't make it to the decisive battle.

They were mere hours away. Horus panicked and ultimately lost because feared the arrival of the Ultramarines.

>Muh you guys didn't even crusade! When they did

They had crusaded, but even before the HH they had started to just hang around Terra.

>why wouldn't you have some praetorians?

They were called the Custodes.

>Muh we saved the if at the iron cage.

This is outright stated. The Ultramarines saved the Fists, you're welcome.

>even if only Dorn Survives he

He wouldn't have. The Fists were dead if the Ultramarines didn't arrive.

>Muh we lost half our legion in a surprise attack; well shit son what does that say for your codex astartes can't be the be all and end all of warfare can it now as you weren't even prepared for internal strife let alone reacted very well when it occurs.

The Codex Astartes was not yet a thing. Guilliman was caught unprepared because he trusted his Brothers. How horrible of him.

>Wah wah wah warpstorms stopped me. Well sucks to be your sucks ships when at least 2 other legions manage to make it through.

BA made it through some how. We don't know yet. The DA didn not make it to Terra quicker than the Ultramarines.

>Hey I like the ultramarines but fags like you need to get off their cocks and realize that they are just as flawed as every other legion.

They're not even my favourite Legion, but I won't deny that they were the best. Because that's canon.

>>43935144
>Again, Ultramarines lost A LOT MORE MEN than the Word Bearers did.

Due to the surpise attack. After that they began to hit back, and they hit back hard.

>The Word Bearers did the damage they sought out to do.

No they didn't. The Word Bearer attack was meant to put the Ultramarines down and keep them out of the fight. They failed.

> Lorgar was never trying to push into Terra that's some bullshit you made up.

He was there at the Siege. So he did go to Terra. Incoming loyalists drove him away.

>Kor Phaeron ran off because: he fought Guilliman and had him at his mercy. Due to orders he wasn't allowed to kill him (remember what Fateweaver said), so he tried to use an Anatheme shard to corrupt Guilliman. Guilliman ripped out his heart. Kor Phaeron either 1. Kills Guilliman and ruins the plan or 2. Lets him go and retreats and the plan Fateweaver and Chaos had goes on

Kor Phaeron was ordered to kill Guilliman. He instead thought there was greater glory in corrupting him, but he failed. He was later driven out of Ultramar by the Ultramarines.

>He stopped Imperium Secundus from becoming another heretical thing

No he didn't, because it was never heretical.

>unlike Guilliman and his Ultramarines who didn't do shit

They went to Terra as well.

>show up during the Scouring and looked cool beating down weakened Chaos soldiers.

Nothing weak about them. They were the same Legions, but fighting on their own home turf until the Ultramarines took it from them

>Sanguinius met Guilliman then went to Terra. Stop making bullshit excuses your bias is pathetic.

How is it bias? We DO NOT KNOW how Sanguinius got to Terra. At this point in the narrative a Warpstorm is stopping people from leaving Ultramar. We are yet to find out how Sanguinius gets past that.

>Yeah just keep ignoring the Phalanx like it ever existed and the fact that the Emperor himself fought beside them in the Crusade.

Read the books. The Imperial Fists are hanging out on Terra.

>>43935144
>How? What did the Ultramarines do?

Come in and stop all the Fists from dying.

>The Imperial Fists did most of the fighting to the fortress.

What's your point? They fought their way into a trap, and the Ultramarines ended up pulling them out.

>Ultramarines didn't do any saving. There was nothing left to save.

Except the lives of the Imperial Fists.

>>43935216
They are stated to be the best isn't really a justification for shit.

Propaganda is just that Propoganda; whch probably came about because they like it is stated multiple times didn't do much during the heresy apart from get their teeth kicked in once; and then chase down the survivors of the biggest most epic battle that has probably ever happened in 40k history (in imperial terms anyway).

Ultra confirmed for having same flaw as ec. Vanity and arrogance.

File: Ultradomination.jpg (207KB, 1128x789px) Image search: [Google]

207KB, 1128x789px

>>43935489
>They are stated to be the best isn't really a justification for shit.

They are demonstrably the best as well.

>>43935530
That actually really isn't a measure. Maybe they just had the easiest world's; it's not like they bothered to take the hard nut siege worlds; those were assigned to legions who could actually win iron warriors; imp fist; alpha legion.

Numbers don't really mean much when half of those victories could of been against cavemen with sticks and stones.

Shit if we look at the vast majority of the 30k human world tech levels most of them were renaissance at most with high tech world's being pretty few.

So that is a stupid quote as it has no context.

>>43935369
>Due to the surpise attack. After that they began to hit back, and they hit back hard.
They really didn't hit back that hard. Word Bearers still managed to kill off a lot more Ultramarines. Word Bearers had minimal loses comparatively despite being outnumbered 4 to 1.

>No they didn't. The Word Bearer attack was meant to put the Ultramarines down and keep them out of the fight. They failed.
No it wasn't. It was meant to create a hole that would allow the Chaos Legions to hit Terra directly (which it did.)

>He was there at the Siege. So he did go to Terra. Incoming loyalists drove him away.
He didn't get driven away. Him and the other Primarchs retreated after Horus died.

>Kor Phaeron was ordered to kill Guilliman. He instead thought there was greater glory in corrupting him, but he failed. He was later driven out of Ultramar by the Ultramarines.
Again, he could've killed Guilliman. Not like he was losing to him.

>No he didn't, because it was never heretical.
Yeah. Nothing heretical about trying to act like you're the Emperor...

>They went to Terra as well.
No they did not. You just said they couldn't because of the Warp. Now you're saying they went to Terra as well?

>Nothing weak about them. They were the same Legions, but fighting on their own home turf until the Ultramarines took it from them
No...they were all defeated Legions who actually partook in the war. Ultramarines didn't partake in shit outside their home.

>How is it bias?
You're dicksucking the Ultramarines in an Imperial Fists thread.

>We DO NOT KNOW how Sanguinius got to Terra. At this point in the narrative a Warpstorm is stopping people from leaving Ultramar. We are yet to find out how Sanguinius gets past that.
You have no right to say this when you yourself are making assumptions.

>Read the books. The Imperial Fists are hanging out on Terra.
And going through the Great Crusade on the Phalanx. Fuck you don't know shit do you?

>>43935411
>Come in and stop all the Fists from dying
Again more vague bullshit. How? The Imperial Fists didn't have anything else to die from at that point. Stop making shit up.

>What's your point? They fought their way into a trap, and the Ultramarines ended up pulling them out.
There was no pulling out from the trap.

>Except the lives of the Imperial Fists.
But those lives were already dead.

>>43935691
>That actually really isn't a measure. Maybe they just had the easiest world's

It's a perfect measure. As it was their primary task, and there are large enough sample size.

>>43935719
>They really didn't hit back that hard.

Hard enough to drive the Word Bearers into hell.

>Word Bearers still managed to kill off a lot more Ultramarines.

In the surprise attack. When the surprise wore off and the Ultras got organised they turned the tide.

>No it wasn't.

Yes it was. Horus feared that the Ultramarines could stop him, so he wanted them removed from the board. The Word Bearers failed to do this.

>He didn't get driven away. Him and the other Primarchs retreated after Horus died.

Because they realised they had no chance of beating what was coming. That being the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

>Again, he could've killed Guilliman. Not like he was losing to him.

He had the opportunity to kill Guilliman, but he didn't take it and was driven off.

>Yeah. Nothing heretical about trying to act like you're the Emperor...

But he didn't. He even went so far as to make Sangunius the Emperor, despite it being Ultramar.

>No they did not. You just said they couldn't because of the Warp. Now you're saying they went to Terra as well?

The loyalists couldn't get to Terra because of the Warp storm. The traitors have dark magic and daemonic assistance and could leave. Somehow the Blood Angels got out as well, as did the Ultramarines and Dark Angels later.

>No...they were all defeated Legions who actually partook in the war. Ultramarines didn't partake in shit outside their home.

The Ultramarines suffered heavily in the Heresy, taking greater than 50% casualties. Once they set sail for Terra, they also destroyed a traitor fleet on the way.

>You're dicksucking the Ultramarines in an Imperial Fists thread.

How is it bias?

>You have no right to say this when you yourself are making assumptions.

Assumptions about what? There is a gap in our knowledge about how the BA got out of the warpstorm. We know much else about the Heresy.

>And going through the Great Crusade on the Phalanx. Fuck you don't know shit do you?

Read books.

>>43935809
Not really, like I said saying that the iron warriors weren't an effective legion is silly as in all the materials all they did was besiege places others couldn't. You really can't say that the sample size was the same, as it's never stated how each legion was employed, maybe the ultra never really fought that much but did missions of reintegration and compliance; they sound like the legion that would be used for, alongside the da.

>>43935744
>Again more vague bullshit. How?

What do you mean how? They came in and attacked the Iron Warriors and got the Fists out, obviously.

>The Imperial Fists didn't have anything else to die from at that point.

Except, y'know, the Iron Warriors.

>There was no pulling out from the trap.

Yes there was, how don't you know this?

>But those lives were already dead.

Not the living ones.

>>43935997
>Not really,

Yes really.
Ultras added the most worlds to the Imperium, this is objective truth.
You can try and weasel out of it by saying the worlds they took weren't difficult, but that seems unlikely given how many worlds were taken in the GC. Every Legion would have its share of difficult and easy worlds.

>>43936065
But that isn't supported in the fluff, otherwise why would perty so be butt mad?

The legions all had their specific purpose and uses; you wouldn't send an angryRon we to bring diploma compliance would you, no you send the paragons of diplomacy and civilisation building.

This in turn == no lose of marines vs wiping bug species 6764ebfs from planet x be for the colony ship arrives.

One planet now is giving reasources back to the crusade while taking minimal resources; while the other took reasources and time and now is consuming more.

What I'm saying is that world's brought into the fold isn't a measure of attributes such as martial skill, if the admin sees you as fulfilling a roll and doing it well you will keep getting this jobs, hence why that screen cap is worth less in terms of actual martial success than yesterday's lunch.

>>43936358
>But that isn't supported in the fluff, otherwise why would perty so be butt mad?

He felt he didn't receive the recognition he was due. He felt Dorn insulted him and was totally ashamed that his own Planet rebelled against the Imperium and that he laid waste to it. Horus then convinced him the Emperor would never forgive him and so he turned in his lot with Horus.

>The legions all had their specific purpose and uses; you wouldn't send an angryRon we to bring diploma compliance would you, no you send the paragons of diplomacy and civilisation building.

The Legion were largely autonomous. They go to whatever worlds they find for the most part. If there's a peaceful solution, but the World Eater are there, well tough luck.

>What I'm saying is that world's brought into the fold isn't a measure of attributes such as martial skill

Given the sheer numbers I would say that they were. Reminder that the Ultramarines are noted to be very skillful and tactically excellent. They were not diplomats, they were still Space Marines, and they were the most successful of the lot. Even the Emperor championed them as his finest and set them as a standard to be aspired to.

>>43936509
Yeah nah , neither you nor the shills at Gw will lead me to believe that.

Personal opinion trumps propaganda materials.

Long live the Khan!

>>43936989
>Yeah nah , neither you nor the shills at Gw will lead me to believe that.

Shills? Seriously?

>Personal opinion trumps propaganda materials.

Canon trumps personal opinion.
Canon really trumps misinformed personal opinion.

>>43937057
There is no canon. That's been well outlined, 40k is a framework.

Things are real or lies depending on you the reader. Me all this talk of muh blueNess is best is Propoganda imo so it isn't canon.

Ultramarines are just roman marines; not the be all and end all greatest hero's of the Imperium you and the ultramar press would have everyone believe.

Since this is an Imperial Fists thread, can someone help me with making an awesome Fists army? So far I have this. Scouts>>>Tacs. All the Devastator Squads stay at the Aegis Defense Line with the Devastator Sargent who's not equipped with any heavy weapon manning the Quad Gun. The Biker Command Squad goes with the Chapter Master while the other one Deep Strikes wherever they are needed. The whole army takes advantage of the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics boosting bolters and giving Devastators Tank Hunters.

Imperial Fists


1850 points


---HQ---

Captain - 190 points
-Artificer Armor
-Chapter Master
-The Primarch's Wrath
-Space Marine Bike


---Troops---

6x (5) Scout Squad - 55 x 6 = 330 points


---Elites---

(5) Command Squad - 190 points
-Bikes
-Apothecary
-Melta-Bombs for everyone
-Storm Bolters for everyone

(5) Command Squad - 95 points
-Melta-Bombs for 1 Veteran


---Heavy Support---

(3) Centurion Devastator Squad - 250 points
-3 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps
-Omnicope for Sargent

(3) Centurion Devastator Squad - 250 points
-3 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps
-Omnicope for Sargent

(5) Devastator Squad - 170 points
-4 Missile Launchers with Flakk Missiles


---Dedicated Transports---

Scout Squads

6x Land Speeder Storms - 40 x 6 = 240 points

Command Squad

Drop Pod - 35 points


---Fortifications---

Aegis Defence Line - 100 points
-Quad Gun

>>43937345
>There is no canon.

Yes there is.
You merely misunderstand some ancient quote.
Good job.
Also there is no point of discussing this with other people if you do not accept canon, so you should probably just leave and brainfart yourself to sleep.

>>43935986
>All this shit about le treachery
Okay. You don't know shit about fighting. If someone's outnumbered 2v1, their chances of losing go up 4 to 1. Since the Ultramarines outnumbered the Word Bearers 4 to 1, the UM had a 16 to 1 chance in terms of winning. Use treachery, and that still keeps it at a hefty 4/1 to 8/1 chance in terms of winning. Word Bearers still did well despite having to hold back and not let the Ultramarines lose completely (again due to Fateweaver.)

>Yes it was. Horus feared that the Ultramarines could stop him, so he wanted them removed from the board. The Word Bearers failed to do this.
No, the Ultramarines were to take enough loses so that they would start working on Imperium Secundus, using up enough resources so there's a direct opening for Terra. Do some reading before spewing shit.

>He even went so far as to make Sangunius the Emperor, despite it being Ultramar.
Lion and Sanguinius were SENT to make sure shit like that doesn't happen. He only made Sang vice Emperor because he was sent to make sure Roboute doesn't go full Heresy.

>as did the Ultramarines and Dark Angels later.
Later being when the shtick was over and Horus was dead meanwhile Legions like the Imperial Fists did the actual fighting and protecting that was important. So ultimately during the Heresy, the Ultramarines:

1. lost half their people despite outnumbering the enemy greatly (shit even treachery can't be an excuse for this.)

2. Made Imperium Secundus which caused direct attack on Terra possible

>The Ultramarines suffered heavily in the Heresy, taking greater than 50% casualties. Once they set sail for Terra, they also destroyed a traitor fleet on the way.
50% all from Calth. And they still didn't take as many loses as others due to their recruitment program.

A little traitor fleet is nothing compared to what the Fists held back in Terra (which like the Word Bearers they were MASSIVELY outnumbered having to take on like 5 or 6 other Legions.)

>>43935986
>How is it bias?
You conveniently ignore information that makes the Ultras look weak. Hell, at least I admit that Imperial Fists got their shit wrecked in with Iron Cage.

>Assumptions about what? There is a gap in our knowledge about how the BA got out of the warpstorm. We know much else about the Heresy.
So for now we can only say that the Ultras:

1. lost half their people despite outnumbering the enemy greatly (shit even treachery can't be an excuse for this.)

2. Made Imperium Secundus which caused direct attack on Terra possible

No other assumptions or anything else to be said until more info is out.

>Read books.
The Phalanx is in the books! What the fuck are you doing? Are you delusional? Troll piece of shit. They have forces on Terra and forces on a flying Fortress Monastery called the Phalanx which went on Crusades.

>got the Fists out, obviously.
The Fists got themselves out.

>Except, y'know, the Iron Warriors.
They already took out all the Iron Warriors forces getting to the Fortress. Then they proceeded to die due to the Iron Cage.

>Yes there was, how don't you know this?
IFs kill Iron Warriors, get to their fortress, fortress has automatic sentry gun things all over the place, IFs that entered the fortress die, battle over. Stop adding shit like the Ultras had anything to do with it. Hell, you know what? Lets pretend the Ultras had anything to do with it. Just like the Scouring, just like Imperium Secundus, they come in later than they should've and just looked cool "helping" when help really wasn't needed.

>>43931204
Except he killed his men in a lottery. It's not purging the weak when you tell a bunch of guys to draw straws.

>>43937567
>Okay. You don't know shit about fighting. If someone's outnumbered 2v1, their chances of losing go up 4 to 1. Since the Ultramarines outnumbered the Word Bearers 4 to 1, the UM had a 16 to 1 chance in terms of winning.

Not on the scale of treachery performed by the Word Bearers. The Ultramarines lost half of their Legion in moments. They were outnumbered on Calth by the time it became a straight up fight.
And they won.

>Word Bearers still did well despite having to hold back and not let the Ultramarines lose completely (again due to Fateweaver.)

Fateweaver had nothing to do with it. The Word Bearers there were not holding back. Still they lost.

>No, the Ultramarines were to take enough loses so that they would start working on Imperium Secundus, using up enough resources so there's a direct opening for Terra.

Nope, the Ultramarines were to be destroyed so that they could not come to stop Horus. But they did, this caused Horus to panick and drops his shields. he knew he did not have time to spare.

>Lion and Sanguinius were SENT to make sure shit like that doesn't happen.

No they weren't. Sangunius stumbled upon them because they were lost in storm and the Lion showed up, of his own will. He was not sent by anyone.

>Later being when the shtick was over and Horus was dead

They were mere hours away when Horus dropped his shields and allowed the Emperor to board his ship. He only did that because he was panicked by the coming of the loyalists and especially the Ultramarines.

>1. lost half their people despite outnumbering the enemy greatly (shit even treachery can't be an excuse for this.)

How can it not? Most Ultramarines were killed bombardment or falling ships. You can outnumber me 1000 to one, but if you get nuked without warning there's nothing you can do.

>2. Made Imperium Secundus which caused direct attack on Terra possible

Nope. The Ultras were on the Eastern fringe. They offered no block to Terra.

>>43937567
>50% all from Calth. And they still didn't take as many loses as others due to their recruitment program.

That's retarded. A loss is a loss. They took huge losses, but recovered better because of their superior recruitment.

>A little traitor fleet is nothing

It;s something, which totally dispels your notion of them only fighting in Ultramar.

>>43937665
>You conveniently ignore information that makes the Ultras look weak.

Like what? What am I ignoring? They suffered heavily at Calth and I admit that, yet they still won against the odds.

>No other assumptions or anything else to be said until more info is out.

What other assumptions have I made?

>The Phalanx is in the books!

At Terra.

>The Fists got themselves out.

Wrong.
Check this
>If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to eniov tormenting his enemies too much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Impcnum before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue. The powerful Ultramarine fleet forced the Iron Warriors back while their hunderhawks plunged through the dust clouds to evacuate the Imperial Fists. Perturabo had no desire to fight two Chapters and concentrated on preventing the Imperial Fists evacuating their dead and wounded.

>They already took out all the Iron Warriors forces getting to the Fortress. Then they proceeded to die due to the Iron Cage.

They did not. The Fists walked into the trap.

>IFs kill Iron Warriors, get to their fortress, fortress has automatic sentry gun things all over the place, IFs that entered the fortress die, battle over. Stop adding shit like the Ultras had anything to do with it.

What? You really don't know this fluff do, you?
They wnet in a fought Iron Warriors until the end. They did not kill all the Iron Warriors and then die to some sentry guns. And the Ultramarines did show up.

>>43937854
>>43938011
I think that your super butt hurt about the fact that ultras are just space marines; and not super space marines.

The only thing special about the ultras is that at some point a writer said that their are more ultras than any other space marine. It seems to me that only occurs because they bitch out on the sluggish fests that matter. Da slugfest themselves blood angels; imps, and scars defend terra; others get ambushed infront of a fortress (instead of like at calth where they were behind the fortress walls) in the open after fighting allday.

Shit what really have the ultras done? Other than write more books, and publish more school books? Not much it seems.

>>43937854
>Not on the scale of treachery performed by the Word Bearers. The Ultramarines lost half of their Legion in moments. They were outnumbered on Calth by the time it became a straight up fight.
And they won.
Where oh WHERE does it say they were outnumbered? Word Bearers start off outnumbered 4-1. Lose half of them you have 2-1. Ultras still had more members.

>Fateweaver had nothing to do with it. The Word Bearers there were not holding back. Still they lost.
Fateweaver gave clear orders to Lorgar to not push all the way and kill Guilliman so Imperium Secundus would happen even though Lorgar was in a position to be able to do so.

>Nope, the Ultramarines were to be destroyed so that they could not come to stop Horus.
No they weren't. Again fucking do your fucking reading. If the Ultras were destroyed Imperium Secundus wouldn't have happened thus the Terra siege not possible.

>Sangunius stumbled upon them
No he didn't he fucking took a fleet there to discuss matters. Emperor and Malcador knew that the Imperium Secundus would happen and practically let Sang and Lion take care of it. Also this is where things get interesting as Sang, Lion, and Roboute are all at the same place at the same time. Two of these guys stay there for some reason. One of them takes his Legion to Terra.

>They were mere hours away when Horus dropped his shields and allowed the Emperor to board his ship.
You made this shit up. Horus dropped his shield cuz he's doing his tip of the spear shit.

>How can it not? Most Ultramarines were killed bombardment or falling ships. You can outnumber me 1000 to one, but if you get nuked without warning there's nothing you can do.
No...there was a wide variety of different attacks used. It wasn't as simple as the bombing on Istvaan. Do your reading all this is explained.

>Nope. The Ultras were on the Eastern fringe. They offered no block to Terra.
Stop it with this bias shit. Your asspulling has now gone far enough to start denying canon..

>>43938011
>That's retarded. A loss is a loss. They took huge losses, but recovered better because of their superior recruitment.
Blah blah blah you really didn't say anything pertaining to the point.

>It;s something, which totally dispels your notion of them only fighting in Ultramar.
You're really stretching it at this point finding the tiniest shit you can to prove yourself.

>Like what? What am I ignoring? They suffered heavily at Calth and I admit that, yet they still won against the odds.
Fateweaver's conversation with Lorgar.

>What other assumptions have I made?
>At Terra.
Yeah lets assume that all IFs are at Terra. Let's conveniently ignore that the IFs were Crusading like such badasses that the Emperor JOINED THEM being the ONLY Legion that got that honor.

>What? You really don't know this fluff do, you?
They wnet in a fought Iron Warriors until the end. They did not kill all the Iron Warriors and then die to some sentry guns. And the Ultramarines did show up.
You're again making assumptions and ignoring stuff. Eternal Fortress was Dorn's own twisted way at atonement. Ultras didn't do any saving. The Ultras don't get what was really going on (just like you.) Only the Fists had the balls to show their loyalty to the Emperor like that.

>>43938204
>Where oh WHERE does it say they were outnumbered?


>Upon its surface, the Word Bearers fought the Ultramarines to a standstill. The traitors held superiority in numbers, weaponry and brutality, but the Ultramarines would never give in. As driven as the warriors of Lord Kor Phaeron were, they could not dislodge the Ultramarines, many of whom had once called the planet home.

>The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manner of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops. The Word Bearers, in turn, had underestimated the tenacity and resolve of their hated foe. In the end, Lord Kor Phaeron was defeated

>Fateweaver gave clear orders to Lorgar to not push all the way and kill Guilliman so Imperium Secundus would happen even though Lorgar was in a position to be able to do so.

Fateweaver is irrelevant. Horus ordered the Ultramarines destroyed. They were not, and would come back to his dismay.

>No they weren't. Again fucking do your fucking reading. If the Ultras were destroyed Imperium Secundus wouldn't have happened thus the Terra siege not possible.

I have. If the Ultra were destroyed, Horus would have won.

>No he didn't he fucking took a fleet there to discuss matters.

Niope, he accidentally found his way there after Signus. Lion showed up to see what was going on, but not on anyone's orders.

>You made this shit up.

How can you be so ignorant? Please see pic.

>No...there was a wide variety of different attacks used.

Mostly the Ultra were culled by orbital devastation and surprise attacks from their once brothers. But once organised the Ultras proved superior.

>Stop

No Legion involved with ImperiumII could have realistically blocked the traitors given the position of Ultramar

File: failed gamble.jpg (57KB, 395x497px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 395x497px

>>43938352
>Blah blah blah you really didn't say anything pertaining to the point.

What? The point is The Ultramarines experienced a grave loss, regardless of how quick they were to get back on their feet.

>You're really stretching it at this point finding the tiniest shit you can to prove yourself.

Canon is not stretching it. Though I can see you're being stretched a bit thin.

>Fateweaver's conversation with Lorgar.

I'm not ignoring that at all. But we know the outcomes and the missions. The Word Bearers were tasked with stopping the Ultramarines by Horus. They failed.

>Yeah lets assume that all IFs are at Terra.

Not all, but during the later days of the GC, yes.
The Fists turtled on Terra.

>>43938352
>You're again making assumptions and ignoring stuff. Eternal Fortress was Dorn's own twisted way at atonement. Ultras didn't do any saving. The Ultras don't get what was really going on (just like you.) Only the Fists had the balls to show their loyalty to the Emperor like that.

Changing your story? The Ultras saved them, as I said. Maybe Dorn didn't really want to be saved very much, but in the end he was. Oh, and here's the pic I promised.

>>43938186
>Shit what really have the ultras done?
Decent question. Ignoring the word bearers at calth, there's them spearheading the Scouring and reorganizing the Imperium's military. After that their most significant contributions in the fluff (aside from a bazillion successor chapters) would be dealing with the Tyranids, most notably Behemoth and Kraken.

>>43938717
They installed new High Lords after the Beheading.

>>43938566
>>43938662
*sigh I think you're just trolling or autistic at this point. I am done. I can keep going but this is pointless skub with you ignoring shit.

>>43938987
Did my sources scare you off?
Pls accept defeat with more grace next time.

>>43939010
Nope. You ignore certain sources while only accepting the sources the work for your bias. Expected of someone delusional.

>>43913541
awfully tiny gun for such a large guy

>>43939010
>Pls accept defeat with more grace next time.
You really thought this was about winning or losing? Oh god am I talking to one of those autistic asocial things that have always given Warhammer a bad name?

>>43939083
But it has Bolter Drill, dude.

>>43938905
Probably a few other things as well. I was just going for the cliff notes. GREATEST OF THEM ALL aside, their biggest claim to fame (to the players) was always the Battle for Macragge.

File: failed.jpg (45KB, 414x616px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 414x616px

>>43939049
I ignore nothing.
Face facts. The Ultramarines were vital at the siege of Terra, and they weren't even there.
The shadow of their presence was enough to make Horus drop a brick.
If the Word Bearers had done their job and kill the Ultramarines like they were supposed to, the Emperor would be dead.

>>43939097
>You really thought this was about winning or losing?

When met by such naked hostility, yes.
I don't think you're actually interested in learning the fluff, just bashing.

>>43938717
I don't think they can claim any of that as personal achievements.

They didn't really do any of that single handedly, one thing that they have managed is release a ctan shard but hey what are you going to do.

Yes the took the brunt of behemoth but I think in the end the imperial navy is the real hero there.

>>43939431
>imperial navy is the real hero there.
Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy are the real heroes of the Imperium.

In how many active warzones are Space Marines in? Like 5%?

>>43939431
>They didn't really do any of that single handedly

They led. People care about the general, not his tea boy.

>>43939157
Calgar has punched big bad guys of all sorts

>>43939454
Now you finally understand they are poster boys not the super duper we did it all heroes you are trying to make this thread believe.

Shit ultras are alright but they ain't all that and a cheese melt.

>>43932108
No.

>>43939525
>Now you finally understand they are poster boys not the super duper we did it all heroes you are trying to make this thread believe.

What?
Not doing everything single handily does not mean they are not canonically the best, just that they are not omnipresent or ominpotent.

>>43933607
There's loads of evidence for it... Have you even read the books?

>>43937406
The anons are too busy arguing friend

>>43939215
I wasn't apart of this argument until you started spewing this bullshit.

>The shadow of their presence was enough to make Horus drop a brick.
I don't know how you consider sending one legion to fight one legion (Plus their Primarch) dropping a brick. The traitors may have had surprise, but so did every other legion when they started the Heresy.

>If the Word Bearers had done their job and kill the Ultramarines like they were supposed to, the Emperor would be dead.
Complete trash. Redeploying the Ultras to Calth made sure they were uninvolved in the siege of Terra, regardless of the outcome of Calth, the Ultras would have no effect on the battle.

Now the Ultras were instrumental in rebuilding the Imperium after the Heresy, but we all know Roboute has a lot of experience in making empires, just surprised he didn't name it Imperium Tertiarus.

>>43943593
pls dont mistake me for an ultrafag because i am a true and loyal scion of dorn but didnt the above source just say that horus feared the ultramarines arrival so he dropped his shields? he also feared the dark angels and space wolves but ultramarines would have been the icing on the cake i think.

>>43945722
also why are you guys arguing about this shit? both chapters are awesome, literally dissing a first founding chapter is retarded as they all have immense battle records and are awesome. cant we all just get along and fight chaos instead of having pissing matches?

>>43939215
>When met by such naked hostility, yes.
>I don't think you're actually interested in learning the fluff, just bashing.
I was interested in discussion dude. But to you this was nothing but a pissing contest. I love both the IFs and Ultramarines. Being a mostly Chaos fanboy these two are the only loyalist factions I like and respect a lot. But, as others have said, Ultras aren't these super duper get shit done types. IFs do that in terms of their defense of Terra and the Eternal Fortress and just being "do it no matter how absurdly suicidal it is." Ultras are more about tactics. This is even represented in Guilliman who's not that powerful a fighter but the best tactician.

File: LemanRuss.jpg (180KB, 587x774px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 587x774px

Imperial Fists are bro tier, but Space Wolves are unquestionably the best.

Dornfags are worse than Ultramarines. Don't know why Ultras get so much hate when Dornfags literally turn two cool chapters into hated ones without any help from Ward.

>>43949615
I don't know much about the game itself, but why are Dornfags so bad?

>>43949906
Probably due to the bdsm that goes round.

Jokes love all my legions; kind of wish wolves went back to being sspace vikings; and hand some sweet rules for doing things vikings were famous for.

Things like giant frost axes; rules to enable fast embarking / disembarking.

Less wolves are our spiritual liege and more yeah we hunt those fuckers cus we're based and look at this wolf coat so mother fucking baller bitches; now where's my wenches and beer at?

>>43939083
notcompensatingforanything.jpg

File: Cup of smirf.png (120KB, 510x546px) Image search: [Google]

120KB, 510x546px

>>43948227
Whatever you say, furfag.

>>43913541
Thats not how you spell Raven Guard jerkbutt

>>43915809
made me chuckle hearthily. thanks anon

>>43930492
>>43931130
>>43931204
>>43937749
Honestly who in their right mind at Forgeworld had the bright idea to hand over Perturabo's fluff to a guy who has made it clear he despises the Iron Warriors? Seriously, while I don't really like the "he was just a guy who wanted to build nice shit" interpretation, the stupidly ruthless from the get go deal was retarded.

Especially since Pert's story always had Greek elements in it, so him using the Roman decimation seems really out of place.

>>43951294

That's not how you spell Raptors.

What does it feel like to be the origin of the greatest chapter but to be yourself irredeemable shit?

>>43954938
>Honestly who in their right mind at Forgeworld had the bright idea to hand over Perturabo's fluff to a guy who has made it clear he despises the Iron Warriors?

This is a genius move moron since Perturabo also despised the Iron Warriors.

>>43955012
>What does it feel like to be the origin of the greatest chapter but to be yourself irredeemable shit?
>the origin of the greatest chapter

Well I wouldn't say the Carcharodons are the GREATEST chapter, but thanks.

>mfw Raptors go near-extinct more often than Salamanders, Blood "Muh Space Hulk" Angels, and Lamenters COMBINED

>>43955080
>mfw other chapters can't tell the difference between "wiped out" and "using camouflage and not being a tactical retard".

>Calth
>WB send a tiny force and a bunch of human rabble
>BTFOs Rowboat and honor guard
>literally success other than Rowboat not being converted

>Iron Cage
>Perty might've been able to do better if he had the resolve
>Dorn dug in though
>literally talons locked, death spiral mode
>they would've destroyed each other if Rowboat hadn't shown up

Done

>>43955437

Trying to operate tactically in 40k doesn't work, as shown by the Raptors being nearly wiped out REPEATEDLY.

You are the Boba and Jango Fett and clone/storm troopers being wrecked by some hermit with a light stick.

>>43955437
>Administratum thinks Raptor numbers are so low because there are none to be found
>they were hiding all along
>half of them were on the Administratum ships to get a free ride

>>43945920
>ultramarines
>best tactician

that title goes to the sons of the lion nigger

>>43955049
kek

>>43956006
Brother!

>>43919151
I was gonna post this. We'll done anon.

>>43913541
They're not

>>43956006

Unforgiven are too busy running off midfight to chase traitors.

>>43951233
>ultrasmurfs

>>43962215
>mfw people actually think being a yiff-fag is better than being a smurf

Haha wow. Do you jack off to dog cocks?

File: 1399187742719.jpg (65KB, 720x543px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 720x543px

>Be Dorn
>My only mission in life is to protect the emperor
>have an entire legion and planet to do so
>I spend decades turning that planet into an impenetrable fortress
>Horus Heresy happens
>Horus besieges Terra trying to kill the emperor
>I HAVE LITERALLY BEEN TRAINING MY WHOLE LIFE FOR THIS MOMENT
>lets the Emperor run off in the final moments to get killed.

YOU HAD ONE FUCKING JOB DORN!
ONE!

>>43913541
The Imperial Fists aren't even the greatest chapter with Dorn's geneseed.

>>43962339
He did his job. Emps just wanted to start punching faggots and no one could convince him otherwise because he's kind of the Emperor.

>>43962371
If Obama wants to jump off a fucking bridge do you really think the secret service would just let him because "well shit he's kind of the President"

no they would stop him.

>>43929522
Ultramarines
>fighting literally where the emperor lost his sandals
>have to fight against the second largest legion and hordes of demons without warning and without allies
>primarch dies at the hands of a demon prince after rebuilding a intergaláctico goverment by himself
Imperial fists
>chilling on terra, their only job was playing minecraft to protect the Palace
>Just stay on the walls while traitors crash against them.
>get your primarch killed raiding a chaos ship.

>>43962388
If he had an Obamatron power suit and wanted to nuke all of the terrorism then they'd probably go along with him.

File: futurama_zapp.jpg (36KB, 512x288px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 512x288px

>>43962424
you're forgetting the main thing though.

Victory was at hand for the Imperium
all they had to do was chillax for like a day and the Space Wolves, Dark Angles and Ultramarines would be there.

Dorn allowed the Emperor to go into an obvious trap just so the Emperor could snatch Defeat from jaws of victory. plus he got his brother Sanguinus killed as well in the process so good on him.

but maybe it wasn't his fault. as we all know Dorn wouldn't know a trap if it set his mustache on fire. i mean look at his track record. Istavaan, Terra, Iron Cage, whichever black crusade he got himself killed on. I'm sure there are others.
Maybe Dorn is just a fucking idiot. maybe it was he who convinced the emperor and Sangunius to board Horus's ship.

>>43962465
>Istavaan
But the fists weren't on istvaan. I don't think dorn had anything to do with organizing the legions attacking horus there either. Like, dorn does a lot of stupid shit, but istvaan? the vengeful spirit? not his fault.

In your image, dorn would be Kif, unable to stop the stupid plan of leaving the perfectly safe fortress and not waiting for reinforcements because the one implementing it outranks him.

>>43962504
Dorn coordinated the assault at Istvaan.
he also did have some IF there. it's on the cover of one of the HH novels.

>>43962465
As far as I know, no one on Terra actually knew that three loyal Legions were coming the way to Terra.
Horus knew though, so he lowered the shields on the Vengeful Spirit and let the Emperor teleport up there, confident, that he could still win, if he kills the Emperor. But he also knew, that if the other Legions would come (And they would, as they weren't that far away anymore) they'd probably break through their ships and break the Siege of Terra.

>>43962868
You're correct. I was reading the fluff bible the other day and when Horus finds out (care of the Chaos Gods) that the Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and that other legion are on their way he orders "all comm-net communication blocked". Meanwhile the Emperor's psychic powers aren't doing so hot thanks to Chaos actively befuddling him.

>>43915670
They did succeed in the defence, the emperor just teleported into space to kill horus

>>43913541
That's not how you spell Raptors.

>inb4 "but the book authors always talk about them losing"
Fiction writers always make the practical, sensible approach not work even though it absolutely should so they can pretend their flashy faggot MC is believable, they rape ass on the table and for good goddamned reason.

>>43962977
Raptors are maybe most reasonable and because of that most effective (when fluff authors allow them to be) however being resonable is not what it means to be space marine.