/wodg/ World of Darkness General

With a normal account, there's a limit to how many images you can see and access from your account, but no limit to uploads as such. I'm not sure if there's a limit to images placed in galleries, but I don't think so, or it's really high.

>>43887675
Talking about imgur, to be clear. Derp.
Having checked, I have an album with 225 pictures on there, so if there's a limit it's in the hundreds.

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>>43887683
>>43887675
Huh. I remember a while back I'd gotten hit two or three times with a message saying that I needed to delete images, or my older images wouldn't actually show up in my gallery. Since then I've mostly logged out if I wanted to upload.

I guess I'll make an Imgur account for WoD images.

For now, here's an upload of all the thread starters I've made, (some serious, some silly) and the four Changeling/Promethean/Hunter/Demon/Geist posters I made a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6chxuovrbCI
Could you run Krieg as a Sin-Eater? The twist I would go for is that the Narrator is his Geist.

>>43887757
Yeah, but that's just the gallery. The old images are still there, links work, and they'll show up in albums and stuff.

>>43887791
Or so I think, anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7S9nYSHbik
Would Doctor Horrible be a Genius or a Hero?

I wonder if you can run a JoJo´s Bizarre Adventure campaing in Sin-Eaters...

>>43888077
Some of the higher level Stands would be more Mage stuff, if anything.

>>43887822
Horrible's the Genius, and Captain Hammer's the Hero.

>>43888077
>>43888206
>Some of the higher level Stands would be more Mage stuff, if anything.
Yeah, I see Stands in nWoD being a mix of Spirits, Geists, Goetic Demons and Horrors

Would the Batter be a Sin-Eater or a Geist?

>>43887637
Okay where is the rest of this porn comic?

What good are the Aeons and other powerful mind-realm inhabitants?

>>43888858
Set pieces, sources of advice, plot hooks, plot powers/macguffins/whatever, cryptic foreshadowing, etcetera.

Or railroading while stroking it to powerlevels, if you're a bad GM.

>>43887637
>and the schedule is meaningless

What is there actually the problem?

>>43887637

They are not going to release any more books and not because Paradox doesn't let them, it's because they fucking suck

Worst pen n paper RPG company ever

>>43888852

second

>>43888981
Oh hai virt, shouldn't you be sucking WoTCs throbbing erection right about now?

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Anyone had any luck with either of the oWoD Diablerie adventures? Either Bloody Hearts or Spiclandia?

>>43886715

Proximi coming from magical manipulation in the past doesn't really matter for most Mages who meet them; they don't create them, and their ancestry is rarely a story focal point. There's nothing that ties them to the actions of the Mages themselves to make it a personal Hubris, or one to warn against what Mages might do themselves, since the ability to create Proximi is largely out of their hands.

As for Wolf-Blooded things being true of Proximi, the fuck is your point? Did you not notice how I said Wolf-Blooded are playing to the themes of an entirely different line? Themes of kinship and family and tribalism aren't a part of the core concept of Mage; quite the opposite, mistrust is a major theme, not closeness.

Proximi ARE random, because being born is a random act; you don't earn your birth. People born into rich families didn't earn their wealth; it's a purely random act. For Werewolves, where accidents of birth are the foundation of their connections to others (i.e. family), this makes sense. For Mages, where community is based on philosophical association, this is fucking dumb.

Can you not understand that different lines have different fucking themes? And that the same thing will interact differently with these different themes?

>>43886604

Dynasties might be created, but the Proximi themselves don't choose to be born Proximi; it's thrust upon them. See above.

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>>43887637
Can I get the original picture?

What's even the point of the Politics skill? Does it actually have a use if you're not running for office?

>>43890510

Politics is to Skills what Fate is to Mages; it lets you nudge things so they can go your way, without automatically resolving the problem.

Politics is useful when you need the phone number of the chief of police, or the mayor, or to know how to put word in the ear of the local Prince, and so on. It's really useful for allowing your character into the halls of power and playing... Well, politics.

>>43890658
Also if you expand it to gender politics and are playing a female character you can use it to get free stuff

>>43889742
That is the original picture. Only difference is the WoD general title.

>>43888920
Yeah but they don't really do anything; mental beings have no uses as far as I can tell. Right like at first I was interested cause it added some depth to those mental mages and offers up a neat idea for summoning things....

But those things aren't even able to do much. Like a summon a spirit of fire and it could start throwing fireballs at enemies. The mental summon couldn't, it would just change how people feel about the fire.

>>43889578

I see the truth has made you hateful, kek

>>43888852
>>43889010
>>43889742
>>43890683

The OP picture is not a comic. It's a Ben Newman illustration.

>>43890865

Y'know, one of the examples in Astral Realms, the Salamander, explicitly can be conjured into the waking world to start fires. The Dreamtime beings aren't just fluctuating feelings or ideas; they're something else entirely.

Mostly, the Aeons exist to offer advice and make deals, though; they're too powerful to deal with otherwise. Lesser Dreamtime beings are also great for making deals, getting AXP from consulting with them on the nature of their things, etc.

>>43890865
Point one, you probably aren't going to be summoning a fucking Aeon anyway.

Point two, changing how people feel about things is plenty useful.

Point three, I'm pretty sure astral entities can be made to manifest materially with magic, too.

Point four, getting advice from the astral embodiment of a whole arcanum sounds more powerful than a fireball to me.

>>43890996
Getting the privilege of working with an Aeon is too much work for little use, the things of the mental realm are weak and pointless when compared to the beings of the Shadow that have a much more noticeable effect on things.

>>43891068

If your entire goal is "Set shit on fire", the fuck are you talking to an Aeon for anyway? If you judge a fish by how it climbs a tree, you're gonna say it's terrible to begin with.

If you want heavy muscle, sure, the Shadow might be your best bet. You want insight and influence? The Astral's probably a better choice.

>>43891128
Not talking to the aeon to burn stuff, I was just using the fire summons as an example.

You can't make permanent changes to an area in the Astral, and going to a realm that changes with humanities collective thoughts for knowledge is silly! It's why there are so many different versions of Thor stomping around the astral, because of the comic history and so on.
And even then history Thor can't teach you anything of use about ancient german rituals and magic because it's wearer than comic Thor.

>>43891250

But your example is comparing two things with distinctly different uses; you're calling a fire spirit useful because it can burn things but a fire goetia useless because it can only convince people about fire. If your purpose is to change people's feelings on fire, the latter is infinitely more useful than the former.

You can make changes to the Astral, and their permanence will vary; they take reinforcing and maintenance to last particularly long, but so does any large-scale social change. If your goal is social change, the Astral makes it easier but doesn't distinctly change the dynamics of the thing itself, any more than magic does for violence.

As for Thor, remember that the Astral is much, much more than just the Temenos. History Thor CAN teach you ancient Germanic rituals and magic, weak or not, and it can also give you insight into what people believed about it, but even then, you're again judging it by something it isn't really there for.

The Oneiros lets you shape yourself and learn about yourself; the Temenos lets you shape humanity and learn about humanity (and history, but not in an objective sense); the Dreamtime lets you behold the world's very soul and learn of that, and perhaps make deals with aspects of it, but it's too powerful to be shaped directly.

If you want knowledge of magic and power, the Dreamtime may be your best bet.

>>43891128
>>43891250

The fire spirit can burn stuff. The goetic being can provide insight into the nature of fire (e.g., arcane experience), and expand your knowledge of Forces so you learn to burn stuff, or do so more effectively.

Think of the old proverb, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." It's acquiring that insight why mages explore the Astral.

>>43890510
Politics is also used in times of recognizing and checking out situations; you might roll Int + Politics to pick out the true statements in a mayor's speech, for example, or recognize cues of who is above or below who in, say, a business meeting.

>>43889739
>Proximi ARE random, because being born is a random act; you don't earn your birth.
That's a pretty stupid thing to say. I mean, you're not wrong, it's just stupid and has nothing to do with anything. Wolfblooded are also random, then, and so is being a Mage (which actually is what most people would call random). There are even Ghoul families. I feel like you're stuck in your ways and don't want to see Proximi as being relevant to Mage's themes, *and* you see Ghouls and Wolfblooded as being stronger and more indicative of their themes than they really are.

None of the three is really necessary, and the games could be just as strong on the themes as they already are. Having them be a special template as opposed to just regular mortal characters is really just because it's fun.

>>43890676
>hurr
Also, "politics" isn't just which candidate is running for office, it's the skill for understanding how organizations operate. Politics can tell you who's in charge in a radio station and who's *really* in charge and capable of getting things done just as easily as for a mayor's office.

>>43891833
It's always weird that people want to treat Politics like a social skill or something when it's... a mental skill. You don't use it to influence large groups any more than you use Science to make a bomb. Science tells you how to make the bomb, you put it together with Crafts. Politics is a Knowledge skill.

Eh I'm just not sold on the astral plane being useful then.

>>43888077
There was a JoJo homebrew floating around here a while back.

I'm bloody tired of drawing armors over and over again, and watching the same concepts asked ad infinitum, so if any of you have any character idea, I'd like to invite you, mates, to the current drawthread.

I'd say post the requests here, but I don't want to pollude the WoD thread with such a thing.
Cheers

>>43892931
have an example of what you draw?

>>43892931

How about you draw my DA character? He's a guy wearing armor

>>43893010
Let me guess, he carries an sword and most likely a crossbow to match.

So guys, I accidentally killed Achilles and took his power. I'm insanely powerful now and now everyone is investigating the nuclear bomb of power that came from his death.

Oh and our Tzimisce's curse of generation shattered.

>>43893054

Yes

>>43892024

Stop comparing Proximi to Wolf-Blooded like that; Wolf-Blooded and Proximi are both supposed to be tied to their parent splat's themes. What works for one may not and often will not work for the other.

Take Ghouls, for example; Ghouls are created through a specific act of will. This fits Vamp's themes, because Ghouls are Vamps transposing their addiction onto others; a willful, parasitic act, echoed throughout every act of biting the Kindred do. If people were just randomly born as Ghouls, that'd make no sense.

Even the notion of Vampires cultivating families plays to this, with the Vamp acting as a hidden puppetmaster, rendering these people dependent. No-one is born a Ghoul; they all have to be made so through a single act of Vampiric will; a decision by the Vampire to take a person's mortal nature, and addict them to their blood.

Ghouls exemplify Vampire's themes in what they are. Wolf-Blooded, I dunno if I'd say they exemplify them, but they definitely cleave to them.

Being a Mage isn't random, though, nor is anything they do: All Mages are people who have achieved a form of enlightenment. The thing that flips the switch might seem random, but every last one of them makes a choice to sign their name in the Watchtower, rather than reject the Supernal. Subsequent to that, every single Mage out there is battling with questions of choice and consequence; that is one of their most core themes, right down to their morality stat being based around judicious use of power.

Proximi don't fit into that; there's no choice in becoming one, you're simply born that way. There's nothing they really add to Mages in the way, say, a Ghoul does for a Vampire, or a Wolf-Blooded Pack does for Woofs.

Don't get me wrong, I want Proximi to be a thing; magical servants are awesome. I just think they need to be more than people who got lucky on the genetic lottery.

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>>43892931
I tried to get my character drawn, but draw threads seem to be mostly about the weird out there concepts.

I'm not an orc in a business suit, I'm just looking for an athletic goth chick dressed like a witch and wearing the Sorting Hat.
http://thereachmux.org/wiki/Sabrina_Granger

Maybe I should make one of those "here's their shirt, here's their pants, here's their pose" things.
But for now I need sleep.

>>43893209
Good lord, no. You shouldn't.

I'm working on some thumbnails for a client, but when I finish I'll give your girl a shot.

>>43893255
I think its generally because Drawfags are too used to drawing normal people.

They want the bizzare and out there to test their mettle.

>>43893332

Used to drawthread, can confirm. When I was doing my Art Fundies degree, drawthreads were how I unwound after life drawing classes.

>>43893332
Part of the issue is that my character's gimmick isn't that out there ("A halfling sex robot powered by PBR!") and the other part is that I tried explaining a complicated description with words instead of pictures.

Part of why finding art for my character is so difficult is that a lot of it is in how she dresses. Modern character, wears a handmade silk blouse, a gothy leather zip-up corset, black gothic lolita skirt, Halloween striped stockings, has a lot of scars and tattoos from dying, wears a spooky witch hat, a rabbit's foot dangling from her wrist, and of course carries a broom. She's basically how I imagine a lot of Sin-eaters dress. A mix of anachronistic fashion and carrying Charms around and looking like some weird hobo with arms covered in gang tats.

It's a very particular look, but not... out there and funny.

Although now I do want to see someone draw a halfling sex robot powered by PBR

This is why I rely on that heromachine site to post at least a very basic picture of what I want if I can.

>>43893255
>The Reach MUX
That's still running? I thought Failcoast had eclipsed it.

Can proximi become another splat?
Like I know you can't make a changeling into a mage; but could a Proximi have been taken by the Fair Folk and become a changeling?

>>43894101

Unless I am misremembering, "greater" splats override lesser ones; Changeling's greater, so it overrides Proximus.

>>43893248

>No-one is born a Ghoul.

That's not correct, as is evident by Ghoul families.

>Being a Mage isn't random

It's most certainly is random. Absent potential archmastery, mages cannot create more mages, nor is there any known means of forcing an Awakening. Individulas can theoretically choose not to imprint on a Watchtower, but the opportunity to choose is random.

Though I think that it would suck to go from anything to changeling.
Like taking a step down in levels of OK.

>>43894158
Correct. Becoming a Changeling would remove any other powers they have EXCEPT for Wolf-Blooded Tells in 2e.

>>43894260

People born into Ghoul families aren't born Ghouls. Their blood is tainted, yes, but they don't actually become a Ghoul until a Vampire makes them one. It'd be stupid to say they were; Ghouls need Vitae for their power source; there's basically no difference between a Ghoul without Vitae anyway and a normal human.

As for Mages... It really isn't random. Mages can't force Awakenings (outside of Archmastery), but there ARE methods to shepherd people towards them, and the Silver Ladder is outright an entire Order dedicated to this. The Seers of the Throne recognize this as a fundamental aspect of their existence; if they didn't know that certain things could guide people to Awakening, they'd have no actual means of discerning how to prevent them in the first place.

The opportunity to choose only seems random because people don't understand it. The core book even goes into detail on how Awakenings often "build up", with people sensing and knowing the Truth but constantly rejecting it until they can withstand it no more and sign their name on the Watchtower.

Mages aren't random. They might be lucky, but every one of them makes a choice. And even if Awakening itself WERE random (which it can't be unless you want to invalidate a fifth of the Pentacle and one of the setting's major antagonists), it wouldn't change the fact that Proximi don't match up because everything about actually playing Mage is choice and consequence.

>>43894582

Dave has explicitly stated that the Silver Ladder do not seek a universal awakening, but rather that everyone have an opportunity to achieve their "appropriate" level of enlightenment.

The books also emphasize that there's no known way to force an Awakening or really know who will ultimately awaken. Theories abound, but nothing proven despite many centuries of research.The fact that someone can choose -not- to sign a Watchtower does not mean their opportunity to do so was not random.

>>43894582
The Ghouls book goes over being born as a ghoul.

>>43894723

Dave has stated that the Silver Ladder seeks everyone to have the CHANCE to Awaken; to be given the choice to Awaken or reject it. It's a statement I didn't like, but don't twist his words: They definitely try and get people to Awaken, even if they might not expect everyone to do so.

Hell, one of their foundational tenets is "The Silver Ladder is the Path to Victory", and explicitly sets out that the Silver Ladder believes the Awakened have a duty to lead others to Awaken.

"Awakened souls have a destiny and an obligation to uplift the Sleepers and bring Sleepwalkers to Awakening." - Straight from the preview.

And, again, I'm not talking about forcing Awakening; I'm talking about cultivating the conditions to try and guide people to do so. There IS a difference, and the 1e books definitely emphasize that point: The Silver Ladder has entire cults dedicated just to trying to guide people to Awakening. The Cryptopoly is all about that. Just because you can't force Awakening doesn't mean you can't cultivate it.

Likewise, the Seers of the Throne try and prevent Awakening. If Awakening truly is random, then how the fuck can they prevent it? It'll happen regardless of what they do. Their entire fucking faction is pointless if Awakening just happens to anyone like a bolt from the blue.

>>43894824

I just checked that; the Ghoul families section explicitly states that only Vampires can make Ghouls, and that the members of Ghoul families are not Ghouls but "something else" unless made so.

Page 43 even goes into detail about the suffering endured by those born into Ghoul families but not made into Ghouls, which is a curious contradiction if they were somehow born that way.

>>43884830
>In 2e Paradox is handled really well. Nothing is Vulgar, and as long as you work within your own limitations, you don't have to worry about Paradox. But if you Reach too far, you strain reality more than you're capable of maintaining gently, and you rip it a new one in the form of a Paradox. If someone witnesses you doing it, you gain the attentions of the Abyss and it gets drawn through.
This is explicitly not the case in 2e. Sleepers witnessing something "obviously magical" add a Paradox die regardless of whether or not you're Reaching at all.

Which is why the old-Mage "that spell I cast was totally coincidental!" arguments are going to come roaring back in the new edition.

>>43890510
It's rolled any time you have to deal with red tape. It's the Streetwise skill for the legitimate side of things.

>>43895215
It also works for supernatural politics. You're on trial in front of the Consilium, and wanna know how best to appeal to each Councillor? Roll Politics. Why does the local wolf boss have it in for you? Roll Politics. Literally all of Vampire? Roll Politics.

>>43893255
Rory can you describe how the different WoD MUDs play to me I want to try that but there just such a different concept to me.

>>43885583
>Think of what a ghoul is: A person suborned, subjected, transformed into an addict; made into a victim in a game about victimization, subject to power in a game about the dynamics of power. They're often a favourite food source for a vamp too, rendering them doubly a victim. How does an addict not reinforce themes of addiction? How does a victim not reinforce themes of victimization? How does the object of parasitic need not reinforce parasitism?

>Wolf-Blooded in 2e, meanwhile, are a major part of how werewolf society functions; a werewolf's pack usually includes plenty of Wolf-Blooded who aid their bigger siblings.

>Academia isn't a theme for Mage (except maybe the Mysterium), it's an analogy; a thing used to give people an idea of how they fit into the world. It's not a theme. Mage's themes are things like personal horror at being trapped in a world one cannot escape; burning obsession to know; questions over the wise and ethical use of power; of freedom and control.

Proximi don't exemplify any of these things; they're people born to power through random chance, not gaining it through enlightenment.

Proximi, and Sleepwalkers in general, are people who are AWARE of the power that the game revolves around but are denied it. Ghouls get access to full-blown Disciplines - they're basically mini-Vampires. Proximi get access to a few specific spells - things the Arcana CAN do, that nonetheless fail to qualify for the entire point OF the Arcana - the ability to create ANY effect you can imagine within the boundaries of the Arcana, on the fly. Wizards are Harry Dresden, Proximi are Binder. Dresden can do pretty much whatever the fuck he wants with Forces and Prime, while Binder is stuck only being able to cast one spell - which he does very well, admittedly, but he's nothing next to a real wizard.

Regular Sleepwalkers aren't even Binder - they know the power exists, but they can't capture ANY of it.

>>43895415
Whoops, forgot my greentext arrow for the last line of the post I was quoting.

Proximi are also in a similar position to Dynastic children in Exalted - most of them are viewed as potential Awakenings, just as Dynasts are viewed as potential Terrestrial Exalts. And some of them never Awaken. Sure, they'll still be of use to the Orders, but their entire existence will still be clouded by a general feeling of missed potential.

Back in 1e, before Integrity and Mages having the option of causing Paradox that they can choose to not have primarily affect them, Sleepwalkers were also in the worst position when faced with dickass Mages. Mages can defend themselves against other Mages, and Sleepers had the threat of Paradox and Disbelief to protect them, but Sleepwalkers simultaneously had nothing to stop Mages from doing what they liked, but nothing more than Sleepers had to protect themselves against them.

>>43895415

I'm afraid I'm ignorant of the Dresden Files, beyond what I gleaned from catching the so-so TV show based off of it when it came out some years back.

I'm honestly not quite sure if you're even agreeing or disagreeing with me.

That said, you are touching on a neat thing; one of the ideas I had for a possible rejiggering of Proximi was to have them be a result of people who were "primed" somehow, exposed to Supernal magic; glimpsing something wondrous and terrible and struggling to comprehend it. It doesn't quite do much for me, though; still need to think on it.

>>43895415
Thematically, Mages are the people who've seen and been to the world outside of prison. Sleepwalkers are people who were born in prison and have only been told there's a world outside through the prison grapevine. They might believe, but they don't *know*.

>>43895556
>They might believe, but they don't *know*.
I'd say that's more Sleeper retainers.
Sleepwalkers are more people who've seen the evidence, but can't produce any of it themselves.

>>43895503

See, I get how Proximi are trying to be presented. I just don't like it. Terrestrial Exalted make the absolute worst Mage comparison, because they're a source of immense power only transmissible through bloodlines, not some access to a universal truth anyone can Awaken to.

>>43895585

I was just about to say this and you beat me by seconds.

>>43895504
I'm saying Proximi aren't outside of the themes of Mage. They revolve around the theme of grasping dangerous power. Mages have the power. Proximi are people who have a taste of the power, but miss its fundamental essence (creative thaumaturgy and improvisational magic). They can do a few tricks by exerting their will, but they can't imagine something that wasn't on a small and specifically-codified list of spells and then make it real. They lack the fundamental understanding of what magic IS, which is reflected in a Gnosis score of 0.

>>43895585
Spellcasting isn't the Supernal, they're the aftereffects of having been there for yourself. Sleepwalkers are missing the forest for the trees if they think seeing a Mage cast is the same as seeing the truth for themselves.

>>43895617

But Proximi power is still fundamentally transmitted through blood, is the thing; their taste of power doesn't come from enlightenment or awareness, it's just a thing they do/are. Proximi are a curious oddity in the Mage world, but they're no more essential than, say, a Sleepwalking mortal with the Unseen Sense merit is; there isn't much of a thematic difference between them. Yes, Proximi get more interesting legendary backgrounds, but, thematically, still not that different.

>>43895645
What about Summoning?
Thanks to based DaveB, it's going to be in Core this time.

>>43895683
Summoners also goes into how summoning the Supernal is itself a doomed-to-fail attempt at reexperiencing being in the Supernal, so no.

Seeing an Imp in the Fallen World is not the same thing as being IN Pandemonium.

>>43895709
It's why I said 'evidence' before, not 'truth'.
You can see things that evidence the existence of the Supernal through witnessing Willworker Magic, however in truth that could potentially be real-world phenomenon.

The only way to know for sure is to see the Watchtowers.

Thus, evidence, not truth.

>>43895709

To be fair, Mage 2e seems to make the Supernal immanent; Mages can see the Supernal all around them now, and interact with Supernal beings without summoning them. It's just difficult as fuck and quite possibly will get them killed.

>>43895760

I think the emphasized dichotomy between the "Supernal Realms" and "Supernal World," and how the Supernal World is now much more front and center, are some of the best setting improvements in 2e.

>>43895683

I'm also glad supernal summoning will now be a major component of the new corebook.

Summoners was also one of the most interesting 1e sourcebooks, and I hope we'll see a 2e revision (along with one for Imperial Mysteries).

>>43895760
>It's just difficult as fuck and quite possibly will get them killed.

If it's not difficult and dangerous, it's usually not Mysterious enough for a mage to waste their time.

top 5 favorite nWoD playsets
>Hunters>Mortals>Geist>Changeling>Vampire

>>43896265
Changeling>Demon>Geist>Vampire>Hunter

Don't quite know where to put Mage, as the only game I played was shit, but I see so much potential in it.

>>43896265
Lessers > Vampire > Mortals > Demon > Mage

>>43896265
Mage>Promethean>Mortals>Hunter>Werewolf, I guess.

>We should use our time waiting for Mage 2e or the 2e Core to come up with some good advice and resources for new players to stick into a Pastebin or something like that.

We could, OP, but I have a better idea: let's just wait and hope for the books to come out, and expect them to come out in two years. Less work.

>>43896793
>expect them to come out in two years

We have an optimistic here

How would you make something similar to the fae from Dresden Files?
Changeling the Lost is nice but not.... not correct in themes for them.

>>43896945
Aren't DF Fae basically spirits? Alien beings fundamentally bound by their natures and what they represent?

>>43896966
Yeah but they can make changelings by procreation. And they can have kids.

>>43896945
Dark Arges Fae in OWoD is pretty fucking similar to them.

>>43897099
So give them a weird impregnation numen?

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>>43892931
Could you draw my Mage? He's a blonde bartender, looks a bit like Shizuo from Durarara, face and hair-wise. His outfits constantly change, so you could draw him wearing almost anything. He uses Fate and Time magic, if that helps.

It's not that I just want to make a family of changelings and their powerful founders and I can't do that in Changeling; what with the Fair Folk being just awful 9.5 times out of 10 and changelings are barren.

>>43896265
>GMC Mortals>Hunters>Demons>Vampire>Wolf

>>43897534
Then why not just use Shizuo fan art from DA or whatever place people get their art from.

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>>43892931
Could I request my Changeling?
He looks like a spindly, ambulatory scarecrow (like, a literal scarecrow). Long fingers, tufts of straw pushing out of his joints, a sackcloth face with button-eyes and no real mouth.
Perhaps his rapier? He likes his about fencing.

Summer Court, he's sick of fear.

>>43896013

The Supernal World really is my absolute favourite. That's actually almost a problem for me, to tell the truth; the Supernal Realms almost becomes less interesting, because the Supernal World is so immediate and intriguing.

>>43896058

Hell yes. I still think my favourite Mage moment (even if it technically wasn't quite in a Mage game; I made a new thing that drew on Mage's rules a bit) was when one of my players found a magic chalice covered in inscriptions depicting a wedding seen turned miserable and painful, with a strange inscription on the bottom, which, when read, caused the chalice to fill with a strange, viscous crimson liquid.

And they just chugged the whole damn thing.

>>43897952
>>43897534
Sure, I'll work on them.

What's the hardest mage legacy to deal with; either rules wise or for certain lore reasons?
I've had a lot of trouble with that one Hopi legacy for shamans.

>>43887637
Source on OP pic?

Also my nwod Mage now has Life 3, what cray shit can he do now?

>>43897858
Because, as I said, a little. He's also nothing like Shizuo personality wise. He's a sociable bar fly who everyone loves, but don't REALLY know. It's pretty much just the hair.

>>43898573
Thanks. My Mage is a super helpful guy who uses his magic to keep his sleeper friends safe, so Shizuo pictures never really worked.

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>>43898764
Tadaaaaa.

>that fucking cute Germanic player in our demon campaign
This went better than expected.

>>43898668
Bearers of the Eternal Voice.

>>43896265
Mage>Changeling>Vampire>Geist>Werewolf

>>43898668
Celestial Masters/Navigators.

They'll turn your gun into a perfect A-Flat.

>>43898668
Awakening Gambit. Jumping back in time with no paradox risk? Take 4 actions and pick the best? Always go first and dodge bullets? Fucking a.

What was that predator's taint thing I used to hear about VtR when we didn't have VtR2e yet?

I've only read 2e and that doesn't seem to appear there.

>>43898972

How's your Demon game going?

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>>43898573
If at all possible would you be willing to doodle up some goetic fear monsters of various types and power levels; preferably with a djinn-Arabian-esque theme but that isn't necessary.

>>43898972
What about that Germanic player?

>>43899031
What's wrong with them?

>>43899266
Predator's Taint was the Beast instinctively reacting to other Beasts when vampires met. The devs didn't clarify that it was supposed to happen when they met unexpectedly, and typically only the first time unless the Beast was extremely powerful. You rolled off Blood Potency and various factors went into it, but it would result in vampires flying into anger or fear frenzy when they met.

The clarified this later in MET: The Requiem with the clarifications that were to go into TT, but by then the damage was done.

>>43890510
Its not used soley for normal human politics. Vampires dealing with their covenants, werewolves with their tribes or spirits, mages with their orders, so on and so on, all those are still politics even if they involve non human entities.

>>43899716
Oh, I get it. That's why, when I read about it on TvTropes years ago, it said something about having the coterie kill itself at the beginning of the game due to it.

So with Blood & Smoke it was translated into that "beast aura" mechanic, right?

>>43899770
Yeah. I, personally, never had a problem with Predator's Taint; I thought it very thematic, but I get why people went 'LOL RAW OKAY EVERYONE KILLS EACH OTHER'

>>43895179
Did you read the rest of the post you're quoting? >>43884830
>If someone witnesses you, the Abyss is aware of what you're doing, and it consciously tries to leak into the world.
It isn't due to "oh no, I broke the consensual reality" that causes Paradox. There's no Disbelief, only Dissolution. The presence of a sleeper isn't making it go away, clap-if-you-believe style, it's actively wrestling with you spell because the Abyss is aware you're doing it. There's no "getting away" with Magic by wearing a tuxedo and top hat.

>>43895415
>>43895503
Great way of putting it.

>>43895645
>>43895585
Also good metaphors. Kudos. The prison one is particularly apt, since Plato's The Cave was so important to Mage's themes and concepts.

>>43896793
Even if we wait two years it would still more more useful to retool the thread info while we wait.

>>43896945
They're True Fae or close enough to it. They're effectively the same as any Spirit from the Shadow, only more cognizant and as far as I can tell they have fleshy bodies instead of ectoplasm(ephemera). The ones like Mab are also Rank 6+ entities. In fact, Mab might be much higher, considering THINGS from Cold Days.
If they get knocked up and have a Changeling, it's just a human who can do Faerie stuff.

Any faerie stuff is Dread Powers, faeries have a bane of Cold Iron and take Aggravated damage from it

>>43897858
>>43898868
>>43897534
>Then why not just use Shizuo fan art from DA or whatever place people get their art from.
Try looking on Gelbooru. I know what it's like to find a character from an anime or game who looks "close enough" but tends to always be scowling (or sometimes the opposite) but if you check Gelbooru, chances are you might find enough art (and enough art that isn't screenshots) that you can use it.

>>43898201
And...?
What happened?

>>43899266
It was a shittier, non-optional version of Lashing Out.

>>43899841
I liked it in concept, hated the way everyone treats it. I had a one on one ghoul game and I showed two vampires going through the Predator's Taint, and it was basically just the two of them growling at each other and having a bit of that thing where two wolves pace around taking measure of each other.

The second one had just barged into the Prince's bedroom and was trying to kill her.

>>43900069
>And...?
>What happened?

And she vomited up ALL her blood, seemed to die, and woke up at sunset with super-strength and super-speed. Proceeded to go down to the local bar - all 5'3" of her - and picked a fight with the biggest, meanest guy there. This bit her in the ass, because he decided to get revenge by breaking into her workshop and stealing the first valuable thing he saw (i.e. the chalice).

Also, she caused a small zombie outbreak. This was a fishing village. There was a zombie shark.

The local mentally-challenged kid also ate most of the pastries she had in her house. He got beaten pretty thoroughly by Mr. BadDude McChaliceThief and actually helped them beat the zombie shark.

All in all, good day.

>>43899961
>fae
Wouldn't it just be easier to recreate them with Beast monsters?

>>43899506
They instantly succeed on social rolls?

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>>43900297
>>43899506
One of my Mage game's most terrifying moments involved a master Bearer. We'd captured a traitor to the Consilium and, after extracting all the information he could get, the guy asked the Bearer what he was going to do with him.

"Do? Why would we do anything? You're just a normal person, after all. Get out, and go home."

The fucker had used the third attainment to erase all of his memories of being a mage. He spent the rest of his life thinking he was a Sleeper (or he would've, if he hadn't died, but that's another story).

When a low-level Bearer tells you they weren't doing anything suspicious, you believe them. When a high-level Bearer tells you that the sky is green, you remember it being green since the day you were born.

>>43899961
>The ones like Mab are also Rank 6+ entities. In fact, Mab might be much higher, considering THINGS from Cold Days.
Mab's a mid-tier god-level being. Mother Winter and Mother Summer are Arbitrarily Powerful tier.

>Any faerie stuff is Dread Powers, faeries have a bane of Cold Iron and take Aggravated damage from it
DF Fae have a bane of anything with iron in it, but have ludicrously boosted physical attributes (especially Dexterity) to compensate.

>>43900646
While the Mothers are ostensibly the strongest, Mab is the one who's got the main mantle, and the one who's dealing with Outsiders at her gate. Remember, Winter is stronger than Summer because of that, and the Queens have power relative to the Court.

The Mothers are just a less mean Statler and Woldorf of deities.

>>43900499
>The fucker had used the third attainment to erase all of his memories of being a mage. He spent the rest of his life thinking he was a Sleeper (or he would've, if he hadn't died, but that's another story).
I'm pretty sure that should be beyond the power of an Attainment that replicates a fourth-dot spell.

In fact, from the book: "The consequences of success and failure on this roll are the same as those for casting the spell."

Breach the Vault of Memory lasts for all of one scene. He'd have forgotten he was a Mage for the next hour.

>>43900730
>Mab is the one who's got the main mantle, and the one who's dealing with Outsiders at her gate.
And you'll note that she's using armies of countless Sidhe to do so. She's not soloing them.

>>43895409
>Rory
Who are you?

Also, they're basically larger online LARPs. I wouldn't actually recommend them.

>>43900752
>the Queens have power relative to the Court.
Big Court means big power. Although the power waxes and wanes.

Actually, come to think of it I feel like I should reread Summer Knight after all the Cold Days stuff...
It seemed to give a different perspective on the Courts.

>>43899031
>>43900499
One thing that's always bothered me: why don't the "Bearers of the Eternal Voice" belong to the order that's all about Bearing the Eternal Voice? Why do they belong to the Eye of the Dragon rather than the Voice?

>>43900882
Even the Silver Ladder would see that as a bit creepy. But the Guardians? They're fine Purple Maning it up.

http://theonyxpath.com/reaching-the-next-level-mage-the-awakening/

Wait, am I over thinking this or being slow(probably a little both, but more of the latter) but the death mage armor makes you take damage like a vampire.

Vampires get shot in the head and just roll their eyes, an Ax to the neck is more annoying then damaging. The damage is superficial and at worse, a bother(at least until it stacks up). A hole it the head dosen't bleed, the vampire didn't need that silly organ much anyway. Converting bloody near everything to bashing is mechanically awesome.

What happens when a mage with death armor turns the armor off after getting an Ax to the neck or a hole in the head? Is death armor not exactly like a vampires defenses as that bullet to the head would leave a welt or something? Or would it thematically make more sense for the death mage to 'snap' back into place after a fight, the hole forcing itself shut or something.

I am still catching up on all the mage blogs and work has kept me from this thread(10 hour days man).

>>43901026
I'd say that as far as we're aware, it works just like a vampire and you don't need to worry about suddenly bleeding to death when it shuts off. How that happens thematically is up to you.

>>43901026
>Vampire Fan
>May 29, 2015 at 5:09 pm
>Mage the Awakening 2nd edition sounds better and better.
>I hope it’s release date is soon

>>43901026
I think that was pre-playtesting, so who knows what the mage armors do now. We know Dave has said they changed pretty radically based on playtest feedback.

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>>43897952
Is it a character from Changeling The Lost?

There are a few things I loved about it. I especially liked how less innocent and more sociopathic and ineffable the Fey are in this game. But I admit I'm not very attracted by the idea of changelings being just abducted and tainted humans.

>>43901471
Yep, basically a budget/rustic version of a Manikin.

>>43901356

Has it really been that long. It's probably not even going to be out this year. Good lord.

>>43896945
Don't do it in nWoD. I'm sorry, but they simply have too many of their own themes to be shoehorned into WoD.

>>43902346
WoD is modular enough that you can do whatever you want with it. If you wanted you could definitely create a Dresden Files RPG if you don't like how lite Fate is.

>>43902874
Well, yeah. The mechanics work. But they are one of the cores of their setting.

>>43903188
>>43902346

If we've learned anything from this thread, it's that themes don't matter. nWoD is just basically horror GURPS.

>>43904006
It can be! Hell, you don't even need to do horror.

One day I want to make a WoD homebrew that has generic powers and trappings, like you'd find in Savage Worlds.

>>43904082

Eh, at that point, I'd just play Savage Worlds. I think StoryPath is going to end up as the superior generic base game, just because you can fit a lot more things into "adventure" rather than "horror".

>>43904276
I feel like it's misleading to say WoD is just horror. I've played many games that aren't quite horror, and there's a lot of investigation and social stuff and exploration and discovery (though not quite in a physical location sense). Saying WoD is a horror game is pretty reductive, because horror isn't really inherent to the system, just one of the more commonly used themes. Not even one of the most commonly used themes.

In many ways, WoD is a great game for playing gritty modern games where there are consequences for actions, but you're also not going to get killed instantly every time a gun goes off, the way most other "gritty" modern games are (most of them seem to treat handguns as if they're rocket launchers).

And it's that relatively rare sweet spot of tone that makes me really like nWoD and want to expand it and use it for games that aren't directly World of Darkness games.

>>43904464

It's not misleading, because the game wants to advertise itself as a horror game. Every book that comes out with it is specifically about how to best use new options for scary games. It's not reductive to say that when that's what people come to the table for. I could run D&D as a GTA simulator or Dogs in the Vineyard as a planetary romance but that doesn't make D&D not a fantasy game and Dogs in the Vineyard not a western game. Fluff matters just as much as crunch.

I think it's important to be wary of anyone trying to expand their pet game to do everything, even if it could (in fact, especially if it could). I feel like it robs people of an opportunity to expand their horizons when it comes to gaming.

>>43904973
Most of the World of Darkness stuff isn't actually all about scary. At least, not in the "HORROR" scary. I mean, the next non-game line supplement that's coming out is based more on things like Snatch and The Departed, and starts out with a quote from Ronda Rousey. World of Darkness presents it's fluff as Horror (and even then not all the time, and not in a way that inherently means monsters and spooks), but that doesn't mean that it's only or even primarily horror.

When you strip everything away, World of Darkness is a tone. The mechanics help enforce and encourage that tone far more than fluff does, which is why Requiem 2e is a lot better at being a game about balancing a rather literal social Darwinism and maintaining your Humanity while you do than 1e ever was.

But, more than that I feel like you're missing the point. I'm not saying that I want to shoehorn Dresden Files (as was the original example) or Star Wars or fantasy into nWoD 2e. I'm saying that I want to use the mechanical framework of the system to create homebrew that allows for playing games with a tone similar to WoD in those settings.

There are many, many D&D remakes that change the setting and "theme" of the game. Most of them don't work very well, but that's because D&D doesn't work very well to begin with, but Dogs in the Vineyard is a much better example. There ARE homebrews of Dogs in the Vineyard putting it in alternate settings (Colonials, Inquisitors, Mafiosos, and FBI being ones outright mentioned in the book).
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dogsinthevineyard/settings.html

When you're making homebrew, mechanical tone means more than fluff or setting. If you strip out the setting, "fluff" doesn't matter at all. If I choose not to play a game with Mages or Vampires or Spirits or Ghosts and instead want to run a flat out modern day crime thriller, Occult might be superfluous, but I can get by very well with WoD rules.

>>43904973
>>43905161
Basically what I'm saying is that as long as the mechanics fit the tone of the game you're going for, you can run any game in a given system. This is why a lot of D20 OGL games are shit; they're just using the best known system so they don't have to make their own, even if it doesn't fit.

That's why I like WoD. It works for a lot of the games I'd want to run. Certainly easier than trying to wrangle a PL 8 M&M game. I mean, I get what you mean about getting stuck in your favourite system, but it's my favourite system for a reason. I'm not just someone who's only played D&D and houserules D&D for everything. WoD is in a very specific mechanically tonal sweet spot for me, and other games aren'.

>tfw weren't born centuries/millenia ago
>tfw not vampire watching civilization unfold from the shadows
>Manipulating a local noble
>slaying hunters
>political intrigue
>machinations to start wars
>can't be an unstoppable vampire pirate
>or a rich European aristocrat
>see the sudden flowering of technology
>humans launching into space
>either fighting in a fallout-style post apocalyptic wasteland or overseeing the colonization of the universe and possibly fighting ayy lmao's

I wish that could be my life. I feel like I'm too much of a "too late to explore the earth, too early to explore the stars" and being a /wodg/ fag I fancy immortality to see both. I always thought it'd be interesting to be a vampire of nearly any stripe if it meant living through history and seeing the wonders and horrors of it from the distance of my immortality.

>>43905418

>too late to explore the earth, too early to explore the stars

The oceans are vast and mysterious, anon.

>>43904973
>that doesn't make D&D not a fantasy game and Dogs in the Vineyard not a western game.

I have to disagree about DitV, at least. I find it works for many different genres.

Hey, I'm brand new to WoD. So far, I am enjoying it, though I've played, like, 2 games so far. I'm playing Mage the Ascension (I think... whichever is the old one), and the DM is having us play an Orphan game (so our characters know as little as the players do).

The GM helped me out with picking our spheres of magic, and I've got Entropy 3, correspondence 2, and prime 1. My character is a gambler (specifically said that I'm trying NOT to be gambit), specifically a card shark.

I just wanted to know if anyone could help me with the mindset of the other spheres. Since I made this guy a card shark, I always think of Entropy and luck for my magic, but I can't really wrap my mind around how I use any of the other spheres.

Oh shit, I just had an idea for a battle with a Lasombra. Since they can't be seen in mirror's, what if a Lasombra's Lair is a veritable maze of mirrors, where he can divide his adversaries and kill them.

might be completely foiled by competent auspex users.

>>43905876
I... what?

How do you foresee that working? The entire point of a maze of mirrors in movies is that you can't tell which person is real and which is a reflection (because screenwriters have apparently never been around an actual mirror). With a Losambra that isn't the case. They don't show up. They're not standing there surrounded by twelve different versions of themselves and it turns out they're behind the corner and not in the center of the room, there's just the one of them.

>>43906014

Not him, but: if the Losambra can run around and nobody see them until they see the real one, then it makes it easier for them to sneak up on the party, because the party can't see him (or her) coming.

>>43906045
They can still see the real him! If you don't cast a reflection, a hall of mirrors is literally just a hallway!

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so I'm gonna be running a game of Fireborn which has some thematic similarities to WoD. It takes place in London, could someone point me at some splats or whatever for london published by White Wolf? Anything would do.

>>43906115
Shadows of the UK is a nWoD book which has a bit about London in it.

It's a city where the Shadow is disturbingly close to the real world, with the Gauntlet one step weaker than normal. Also all the Werewolves are slightly insane, and ludicrously poorly coordinated to the point of anarchy.

Mages consider vulgar Magic to be one step away from being a crime against Lex Magica.

Vampires live in fear of some sort of 'vampiric purge' which is coming around.

>>43906075

Not if it's a legitimate maze. Like, full blown hedge maze, but with mirrors. Enough that you could get lost WITH OUT the mirrors disorienting you. The Losambra could be hiding around corners and you'd never know they were there, but they would be able to see your reflections and know where you were.

Can anyone tell me about smaller WtF tribes, or Forstborn that aren't the main eight?

Also, does anyone have a WtF 2e link?

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>>43906139
neat, thanks for the help M80

>>43906165
That's dumb.

>>43906212
>Mummy, Demon, Hunter, Promethean, Changeling.
>One guess who I am.
I don't even know what you're going on about.

>>43906199
I didn't even know there were smaller tribes.

>>43906252

Eh, I've heard worse ideas. Put the party in a situation where they're disoriented and lost, and then have the enemy also be almost invisible until you're right up on them.

Also, if things go Sour, they can turn tail and run. You couldn't follow the reflections to know which way they ran.

>>43895415
>while Binder is stuck only being able to cast one spell - which he does very well, admittedly, but he's nothing next to a real wizard.
What would the Grey Suits actually be?

>>43906199
There aren't really smaller tribes in WtF, at least not canonically. There's only one canon firstborn besides the main eight, Empty Wolf, and it could very well be lying about its status as a child of Urfarah, given that its an agent of the Maeljin and patron of the Bale Hounds.

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>>43906199
Oh, there are lodges though, which sorta fit what you're looking for. Small organizations within tribes(or maybe occasionally extra-tribal) that have their own patron spirits and traditions.

Or, consider this: homebrew dat shit.

Rank 2 Spirits of some sort, Summoned from Shadow and given a corporeal form made of Ephemera.

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Which Kindred make the best waifus?

>>43906199
There'll be more info on other Firstborn in the Neolithic Dark Era, and a little bit of info in The Pack.

>>43907123
Daughters of Cacophony

>>43907150
>garbage bloodline that exists only as a vehicle for a ridiculous discipline

Don't make me laugh, fledgling.

>>43907123
Post qt vampire 1-4.

>>43907156
>giving absolutely no thought to mouth, tongue or throat muscles
lol virgin ain't it a school night?

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My storyteller says I have Fugue now, since some Ancient Mesoamerican shithead used his rapist wizardry to rape my delicate psyche. How elaborate should Fugue behaviors be? Would it be kosher to just mindlessly seek a quiet corner, and start conducting a nonsense ritual with circles and candles and mumbling and such? Or is that not dysfunctional enough?

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>>43907185
Vicissitude fulfills all those functions and so many more, lickboi

>>43907191
you forgot Cain in LOL Reality.

>>43907191
That chart is dumb. Also clearly mixes oWod with nWoD.

>>43907196
That chair's expression is so nonchalant.

There's a Vampire/Anne Rice inspired version of Dogs in the Vineyard.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=17475.0

>>43907191
So... A starting Mage is supposed to mop the floor with everyone but the very strongest vampires? I find that very, very unlikely.

>>43907123
Ahrimanes - literally Kindred catgirls

So my ST is running a game out of Tokyo and we might be going from standard NWoD over to Mage. I am already heavily invested in physical stuff what would be my best course of action for going full samurai wizard?

>>43907674
Because that image is bullocks.

In reality the Mage power curve is the weirdest of all. Most other supernaturals have a fairly linear curve, for mages it is more geometrical. A Master is vastly more threatening than a Disciple, but on the sheet that is just a difference of two dots.

>>43907708
The Onikaze. The Brotherhood of the Demon Wind in the Adamantine Arrow book.
If you want to do warrior-monk wizard it's the Perfected Adepts of the core book that count then.

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>>43907703
You mean there's an official version of this shit?

>>43907713
Thanks

>>43907713
Perfected Adept get to do DBZ shit, so they're coolest. Plus they'd probably be easy to convert to 2e when it comes out, if their game is GMC.

>>43907729
>>43907718
Yeah. Perfected Adepts are stronger, faster, and more badass than everyone else. Can sense life-energy, can shoot energy blasts from their hands, and stop bullets.

That said, the Brotherhood of the Demon Wind are super-fast, teleporting, combat-wizards. And they are literally samurai wizards.

So. Odds that we'll see any update for Mage 2e in today's Monday Meeting.

>>43907717
Not exactly, they're more of buff amazon catgirls.

>>43907819
So. Why the name?

>>43907828
They're AhriMANES!
Haha, get it? BECAUSE CATS!

>>43907819
But seriously, tell me more. Vampire catgirls for real? What's with that? Are they just cat themed or are they actually cat looking? I know Gorgons don't get to be actual Medusas.

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>>43907828
Trophy name, homage to the deeds of bloodline founder.

>>43907136
And I just remembered there's also Ravening Wolf mentioned in the 2e core as another Firstborn.

>>43907848
Gangrel offshoot, all-female, can't Sire, new members are recruited by converting "worthy" Gangrel. Their Protean forms are of feline nature. So are their marks of Frenzy / Humanity loss. Sabbat or unaligned. Pretty rare, only can be found in Southern part of United States and South America.

>>43907848
>They're AhriMANES!
>Haha, get it? BECAUSE CATS!

I don't, actually. I'm not a native speaker of English. Could you explain the joke?

>>43907997
Is he the one in Mongolia? Wasn't he "just" a powerful scion of the Firstborn?

>>43908085
Mane is the term for the hair around a cat's neck. Or a horse, or whatever, but usually things like lions and tigers.

>>43908097
Yep, the one supposedly somewhere in Central Asia; and no, she's not a scion of the Firstborn, she's a full-on 'forgotten' Firstborn (if she exists).

>>43908144
Someone with as metal a name as Ravening Wolf has to exist.

What exactly would an additional Firstborn mean? Another Tribe?

How does Vampire LARP work, anyway? Do you just meet up for a dinner party, only you pretend to be vampires?

>>43908212
Potentially, yes.

Dark Eras Neolithic will give a little more insight into who the Firstborn were and what they did prior to the Great Predator's demise; the Firstborn weren't always Tribal totems, so even an additional Firstborn survivor in the modern age wouldn't automatically mean a new Tribe.

However, that's certainly what the Eaters of the Dead are aiming for. They want to find and enshrine Ravening Wolf as their Lodge totem with the end-game goal of raising her up to Tribal totem status. How easy that will be depends on what the actual status of Ravening Wolf *is* in this modern age.

We will be giving the Eaters of the Dead and Ravening Wolf more word count in future Werewolf material.

>>43908258
You go to an old school or library or an old factory or somewhere else you can spend like three hours playing pretend. Then you play pretend just like if you were roleplaying at a table, but while moving around and probably in costume and with props. Usually there's a rule system. I'm not sure what Mind's Eye Theater or By Night Studios actually does. Probably something stupid, like rock paper scissors.

Sitting here watching Youtube videos about whether viruses are alive and I'm wondering if they're covered under Life or Matter.
https://youtu.be/WGL4HPuFKZA

Life seems more appropriate.

>>43908300
Everyone loves a scrappy underwolf story, but "Eaters of the Dead" sounds a bit worrying.

>>43908314
It does rather, doesn't it.

On the plus side, they seem to want to become a *Forsaken* sixth Tribe rather than becoming a Pure Tribe or being some sort of independent third faction. Their similarities to the Lodge of the Field of Dogs would probably also make them a handy ally against that blasphemous Lodge in the coming war there.

Their sacred prey is the undead, which... could be a good or bad thing, depending how it goes.

>>43907123

Tzimisce, easily

>>43908383
Vampire hunting werewolves? Here I thought we were over the Jacob or Edward question.

Did Ravening Wolf kill Father Wolf? If she didn't, would her Tribe not have Auspices and whatnot? Do Pure even have Auspices?

I've been thinking about running 2e, but I still haven't read it. I just like the stuff I've heard about the pack structure and the way character creation is handled as a group.

Gathering notes for that Hamon-using Hunter group someone requested a couple threads ago. I'm starting to realize it's beginning to really drift away from just being JoJo and taking on a life of its own.

Is that good, or basically way too tryhard?

>>43908411
>Did Ravening Wolf kill Father Wolf? If she didn't, would her Tribe not have Auspices and whatnot? Do Pure even have Auspices?

Whatever Ravening Wolf's role (if any) in the Great Predator's demise, it wouldn't directly metaphysically impact whether or not her Tribe have Auspices.

Werewolves 'naturally' Change with Auspices; the Pure Tribes then strip the Auspice out of the werewolf's spirit, tearing Luna's mark from the Essence and flesh of the victim.

As such, if the Eaters of the Dead allied themselves with the Pure upon becoming a true Tribe, they would still have Auspices by default. You can expect the rest of the Pure would expect them to perform the same sacraments of self-mutilation to purify themselves of Luna's touch, though.

>>43887637

That's great and all, but why does it look like swamp thing is about to bang the shit out of a Hawaiian middle schooler?

>>43908490
Just hypothetically speaking... what Tribal Affinity Gifts would the Eaters of the Dead have?
Death, Strength, Nature?

>>43908721
Tricky one, really. Death would make sense except it's already the 'proprietary' Gift of the Bone Shadows.

I'd be tempted to go with a new Carrion Gift, possibly, if I could somehow hammer out a good series of Facet concepts for it. Or maybe an Endurance Gift? Then either Evasion or Stealth. Finally probably finish up with Strength.

It's a bit tricky to predict since it'd depend on the exact circumstances of how they found Ravening Wolf, what Ravening Wolf is like, and how they go about getting her the needed power to become a Tribal totem.

>>43908721

I'd go with Death for sure, then either Insight or Knowledge, and Strength or Inspiration.

>>43908779
(Also the advantage of a Carrion Gift would be that you could then have the Eaters of the Dead and the Lodge of the Field get in a conflict over who the sacred spiritual power *really* belongs to affinity-wise).

>>43908823
That'd be pretty nifty, yes...

Makes me wonder what they'd need to devour to grant their patron enough power, though...

>>43907805

I'm sort of anticipating that we'll see it move from art to layout; it's been long enough. No idea how long it'll be between then and press.

>>43908258
>Do you just meet up for a dinner party, only you pretend to be vampires?
Yep. Only difference is that there is only pretend violence instead of the real violence in usual dinner parties.

>>43896265
>werewolf>changeling>mage>vampire>demon

And now to say an opinion that will get me lynched: Promethean is a splat about suffering mob rule and being forced to conform or be a "monster". It is literally Mary Sue persecution the splat and it is bad and should feel bad

>>43909183

Doesn't Disquiet kick in no matter what you do?

>>43909183
Eh. Mary Sue, by definition, means few to no flaws. Prometheans are very flawed creatures.

>>43908827
Just what Ravening Wolf might want her children to consume for her is something that I'm sure we'd cover in any future material we put out for the Eaters of the Dead ;)

>>43907805
>>43908902

I'm increasingly skeptical that the Mage art will finally be listed as complete in today's Notes, no less any hope of a pre-Christmas release with the needed final layout, editing, and Paradox review.

I'm more curious if Paradox finally approved the new nWOD corebook. If that's still not done, I cannot even imagine how long the Mage approval will take.

>>43909183

Most people have no idea what Mary Sue actually are.

>>43909258
All that matters is that a Mary Sue sucks up the attention of a story like a black hole. You a dozen flaws, but focusing on that flawed character over everything else makes them a Sue.

At least, I think that's what it means. Mary Sue has become a word that is hard to define.

>>43909413

Isn't that just a main character at that point? Can we please ditch the term and talk about what we're really talking about when we use it: That we don't like the characterization of the characters in question? Not everything needs a meaningless, "catchy" name.

>>43909413
A Mary Sue is someone who has flaws that have little to no actual detriment, like "is too nice to people", or "avoids fighting because she knows she'll win", and either no backstory beyond 'he just suddenly got his powers without any sacrifice or downside' or a backstory that involves them being super duper uber ~*speshul*~, like the last of their race, or re-incarnation of some dead god, or whatever.

While Prometheans, just like anything else, CAN be a Sue, there is nothing about them that inherently makes them so.

>>43909238
Yep. So people will irrationally lash out, order you around or get depressed because you are pretty.

Now the response of torment? That's interesting AND would make for a more flawed character if it didn't have to have the universe saying "you are too different " to trigger it

>>43909566
Except the pretty Prometheans are Galatea, and their Disquiet isn't 'people get sad'
It's 'people get obsessive about you to the point of trying to rape and murder you'.

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>>43893255
I did most of the work yesterday, but without an outfit or some guidance of the kind of witch I didn't finish it.

>>43897534
Tried to take a stab at this, but the sole idea is dumb,
>Durarara face
It's a bloody animu character, all the faces qre the same, and I don't draw animu.

>>43909183
By your own definition, you are a Mary Sue. Forced by mob rule to conform or be a monster with an unpopular opinion.

Or you're wrong. There is that option.

>>43906115
>It takes place in London
L O N D O N
O
N
D
O
N

>>43910691
Did you say...London?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNjSwZD8e8

>>43910691
London?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6-AGtjsylw

>>43910528
I can't throw a tractor trailer and I certainly wouldn't be sad about it if I could

>>43910855
>that post

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>>43908300
>We will be giving the Eaters of the Dead and Ravening Wolf more word count in future Werewolf material.

>>43910938
>IRA GAMAGOORI as a Werewolf
Because why the fuck not.

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Reading through GMC when I came across this.
>Other supernatural beings lose their powers when resurrected.
>Mages become Sleepwalkers and werewolves, wolf-blooded.
What happens to changelings? Or demons? Do they become human or just stay dead?

>>43911400

They might become ensorcelled?

>>43911400
>That Numen
Either Mages have a superior method of resurrecting the dead, or resurrected Sleepwalkers can become Mages again by grabbing a new soul.

>>43911400
Changelings were human and didn't die to acquire their powers, so they either revert to human or become the Changeling equivalent of a wolf-blooded (fetch?).

Demons have two options as I see it, depending n your ST:

1. They were never human and as such fade away / are reabsorbed or deleted by the God Machine as inert data.

2. They are resurrected as their cover,but suffer nightmares because of the GM knowledge still trapped within their now mortal brain.

>>43911443

Dave HAS mentioned that a master of Death or Life can resurrect people, but they come back without a soul. Shove a new soul right on in there and they're good as new. Gotta use a Mage soul, though, to make someone a Mage again.

>>43911227
Favored Form (Dalu) ●●●●●

>>43911454
>Changeling equivalent of a wolf-blooded
Probably Fae-Touched

>>43911512
I thought that, while you do lose Gnosis while you're soulless, you got your ability to use magic back with ANY soul, not just an Awakened soul? At least as of 2e.

>>43911683
And they'd probably be even MORE interesting to the Fae for having died and come back.

>>43911797

If you lose your soul, you slowly have your Gnosis tick down; losing dot by dot until you hit 0 and become a Sleepwalker. If you're given an Awakened soul, you instantly return to your previous vigor. If you're given a Sleeper soul, you get stuck at whatever level you'd fallen to.

Dead Mages come back as Sleepwalkers. Give them a Sleeper soul, they stay that way.

>>43911512
>Gotta use a Mage soul, though, to make someone a Mage again.
I am 99% sure this is not the case for Death 5 Unmaking somebody's Death.

>>43910441
I didn't mean you should make her naked!
Not that I'm complaining

>>43910884
They ain't wrong.

>>43911400
>What happens to changelings? Or demons? Do they become human or just stay dead?
Remember, things generally focus on the Big Three unless there's a specific need. GMC especially had a strict word-count when it was released (otherwise they'd have no need of an actual Core 2e). Crossover stuff is by and large a product of STs deciding what "seems right".

Although I think more "fair" would be becoming Proximi, or Werewolves also just becoming people. But that was written way back when Wolfblooded meant shit, not the "Wolfblooded as mini-werewolves" we have now.

Changelings would likely be either Enscorcelled or Faetouched, if 2e has faetouched.

>>43911512
Keep in mind this is a small God doing this. I don't think you'd come back soulless here. Although maybe with a new soul.
As an aside, what happens if a Sleepwalker gets the Soul of a Mage put in them?

>>43911887

I'm pretty sure it is the case, but it'd be nice if Dave could step in on it. There's a piece of setting fiction from the new anthology where this is explicitly a part of a Mage's back-up plan, expecting to be killed; storing their soul and memories elsewhere.

>>43912400

You don't come back soulless in the case of this specific Numen, but you do appear to have a new soul.

As for a Sleepwalker getting a Mage's soul, they remain a Sleepwalker (unless they were a Mage originally). No Gnosis, no magic, and a Sleepwalker lacks Gnosis.

Personally, I've houseruled this, re: what souls are. In my games, shoving someone else's soul into a different body does baaaad things.

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>>43910441
>but without an outfit or some guidance of the kind of witch I didn't finish it.
If you did want more, I describe her outfit here >>43893511
>Modern character, wears a handmade silk blouse, a gothy leather zip-up corset, black gothic lolita skirt, Halloween striped stockings, has a lot of scars and tattoos from dying, wears a spooky witch hat, a rabbit's foot dangling from her wrist, and of course carries a broom. She's basically how I imagine a lot of Sin-eaters dress. A mix of anachronistic fashion and carrying Charms around and looking like some weird hobo with arms covered in gang tats.

I hope we get more art of the Bound in any hopeful future Geist release. The original art is sort of murky and in a thick blobby style, but it's pretty good.

>>43912466
I don't follow. What makes you assume this soul is new? Simply because you're not a Mage anymore? Mages don't need their own soul to be Mages. This could just be the same soul but no longer Enlightened because it's "been through the wash".
I also feel that making swapping souls baaaaad really kind of messes with a bit of setting fluff: that the soul is important and mysterious, but at the same time not as important and Us as we often assume.

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Has anyone got the stats for pigs? I need them for reasons.

>>43912576
Just use a horse and quarter the health and speed

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>>43912544
Speaking of the Sin-eater art, I stumbled across this trying to GIS a decent image

http://rpgpara.blogs
[hey you have to take this part out because some blagspat once pissed off moot or something]
pot.com/2011/06/geist-sin-eaters-personagens-prontos.html
Google Translate makes it into a mess, but those sheets look awesome. I definitely don't remember them being in Dem Bones, though.

>>43912576
Don't know if they're actually in here, but here's the animal stats.
If they aren't: Cute ●●● Delicious ●●●●

So are Stand Users like Proximi?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9bel8mbJI8
Okuyasu would probably just have the ability to erase the space in an area about the size of the basketball, and that's it.

I'm using this analogy because most Stands are very one-note.in how they actually work.

>>43912400
>Rank 4
>Small god
Nope.

>>43912544

An Awakened who lost their soul and regained it instantly returns to their natural power, so either it's an entirely new soul or it's lost whatever special quality connected it to the Supernal. The fact that the two are indistinguishable - and that you have known cases where the same effect happens - makes assuming one with fewer added unknown processes simpler. Occam's razor.

As far as swapping souls go, I'm okay with shedding that bit. So much of the rest of Mage's fluff makes the soul tremendously important, but only for what it provides, not what it is. If you could enchant a machine to pump out souls en masse, their "specialness" would basically evaporate. Tremere could gobble them like fat kids in a pie shop; their specialness lost with their rarity.

If, however, you could make a machine that mass-produced intelligent humans, their slaughter would still be horrendous; their specialness is not diminished by being super-numerous.

Making the soul the person themselves makes a lot of the other fluff make sense, too, like how Stygia is the abode of souls, which somehow are the person themselves, retaining memory and personality. Or how the pre-Fall world was described in one in which people underwent an unbroken cycle of reincarnation, souls descending to the world and then returning to the Supernal, which makes no sense if souls aren't the person's essential self.

Souls work way better if they're the person themselves, rather than the metaphysical equivalent of a thyroid gland.

>>43913016
>Souls work way better if they're the person themselves, rather than the metaphysical equivalent of a thyroid gland.
Someone had an interesting idea recently in response to a post by DaveB on the OPP forums:

>Think of it as nesting dolls; the key to understanding the Astral is to know that souls aren't really separate things - they're more like branching tree roots, each human's soul being part of the greater soul of humanity which is part of the greater soul of the world.

>Dreams are the very surface layer - before you even enter an individual soul. That's where Changelings play, flitting from dream-layer to dream-layer in the skein. Beneath those dreams, in a human, is the Oneiros. Beneath the Oneiros is the Temenos, where human souls merge into the astral realm of humanity. Beneath the Temenos is the Anima Mundi, where the souls of everthing (even the planets and stars) merge, and under that is the Abyss.

>In theory, if another sapient species existed, it might gain a Temenos of its own. Mages are very interested in the way that only humans (and post-human critters) appear to have souls at all when viewed from the material world, but the Anima Mundi exists regardless. Perhaps it's a forest and trees situation, where you can't see the soul of Earth while walking around because you're inside it.

Your soul, in WoD, isn't necessarily your "self", but it is a vital component of your self - it's literally your humanity. Your Oneiros, and by extension your soul, is an outgrowth of the Temenos, the soul of Humanity. Your soul is what makes you a(n individual) human.

This also explains why, when Prometheans finish forging their souls, they become humans.

People without souls are still people, but they're inhuman. They lack the fundamental component of their self that anchors them to the rest of humanity and makes them a part of humanity.

>>43913210

I don't see these things as in conflict, though. Your soul can be your essential self and still be a part of the grand world-soul. Hell, there are entire religions in the world today that operate on that premise, from huge swaths of Hinduism and Buddhism to tiny sects like Theosophy.

The idea that you are a part of God, and that the dualist notion of distinction is a lie and the ultimate cause of suffering in the world, is a foundational notion of many forms of Kabbalah, which holds the proposition that the ultimate fall of humanity from its perfected to corrupted state came from partaking of knowledge before acknowledging the holism of the cosmos.

None of these religions require a distinction between you and your soul, or between you, your soul, and your humanity.

(Mind you, there's whole other strains of Jewish thought that disagree in fascinating ways, suggesting that "soul" simply means a living person; a combination of spirit and flesh. It's complicated.)

I have used the World-Soul notion in my Mage games in the past. I just prefer the notion that it's your essential self; that a person without a soul is meat, devoid of will or drive, unable to even feed itself. The soul is, by itself, though, incapable of experiencing reality; reality is, to borrow the coral metaphor, the shell the soul exudes for itself to exist in.

>>43913406
Well there's the fact that people keep being people when they've had their souls ripped out...

>>43914278
Not for too long though, right? The Soulless Condition is pretty much a slow deterioration until death, isn't it?

>>43914304
It doesn't kill you, no. This is as bad as it gets:

Thrall (Persistent)
The character has fully succumbed to the effects of soullessness. She may not spend Willpower points for any reason, may not use her Defense in combat, may not spend Experiences, and suffers all the effects of the Broken Condition (see p. 181) as well.

>>43914278

Like I said, I houseruled it and changed the way it works for my games; losing your soul in my games pretty much instantly renders you into a catatonic stupor. The shells left behind respond to commands if shouted at them but won't even try and feed themselves, much less defend themselves. Restoring the soul restores the person. Trying to give them a different soul causes them to seem to recover, but only marginally; they go mad, as mind and soul go to war with each other; unable to reconcile their fractured identity; desperately wanting to be two people at once as each half knows it's not itself.

Tremere have actually figured out a way, through centuries of practice, to sheer away their victim's soul so as to leave a fragment behind; an "imprint" on the husk, bound to their will. That leaves them with obedient, intelligent thralls.

Monday Meeting notes are out. No changes. No news.

>>43914644

Same old then

>>43914644

Well, that's properly disappointing.

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>>43914644
Oh that's no bother.
I embraced the abyss long ago.

>>43913016
An awakened who regains ANY soul returns to their natural power if they never lost any power. And being dead isn't the same as Soul Loss. There's no slow loss of Gnosis. You could have died right there immediately and you'd still return from Death with the Ressurect Numina as a Sleepwalker.
Your reasoning is wrong AND your understanding of Occam's Razor is wrong.

>If you could enchant a machine to pump out souls en masse, their "specialness" would basically evaporate
Not really. They talk about that in Imperial Mysteries. Something keeps making souls, even though there should only be a finite amount. It's probably the Principle.

>Souls work way better if they're the person themselves, rather than the metaphysical equivalent of a thyroid gland.
That's not what they are, though. People saying that aren't paying attention and are being reductionist.

>>43913210
That's actually p. cool.

>>43914550
>>43913406
Honestly, I think the way that nwod handles the subject of souls is more interesting and thought provoking than the way that other games do. A soul, if anything, is qualia. And people without souls are philosophical zombies. Your soul is also not you, it's only part of you. Likewise, your mind isn't really you and neither is your ghost.

>>43907828
They're a Bloodline of the Gangrel in the modern nights.
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Ahrimanes

>>43908258
Depends on the setting and what you're doing. Also depends on your available space. But generally there's some social or other reason to get together (often court, but not always), with your available space representing the area you're playing in. From there, you might have breakout space where people will go to have scenes in other locations. The players act, dress, speak and move as their characters, though there is some abstraction in some things like combat, as Vampire LARP is a non-contact LARP.

For example, for a long time we used the entire floor of a classroom building; so we had rooms that we set up as various locations (a Brujah's bar, a Gangrel roadhouse, a Setite bookshop, the Elysium which was an opera house or an art museum, a Toreador's gym, and a few others as regular locations). We'd do deco (tablecloths, tea lights, metal candelabra, music, table art, etc)

People would dress simple or elaborate (I played a Toreador whose art was his body and he was an MMA fighter and promoter, so I wore a lot of Affliction-style shirts, while one of our Ravnos players wears spiffy vests and bowties, and one of our Nosferatu players wears a black hoodie with fake bloodstains on it). People will wander around, socialize and plot and generally stay in character most of the time, with some areas designated as OOC.

For mechanics, depends on the LARP. NWoD MET uses a card draw to simulate dice rolls; Laws of the Night and MET: Vampire from By Night Studios uses Rock-Paper-Scissors; when combat happens, things go into more abstract stuff that you'd expect from TT, with describing what you're doing and often pantomiming (as some powers require hand gestures to represent), and then the various resolution mechanics.

Games can run the gamut from political intrigue, to investigating a haunted house, to anything you need. We had one night where we did a metaplot-based event, and used the back half of the floor as the warrens and sewers, for example.

>>43915506

>return to their natural power

No, they don't. Even in DaveB's stop-gap mechanics, posted here - http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/314-stop-gap-god-machine-mechanics-for-mage - they don't. Not unless they're given an Awakened soul. I believe he's since mentioned the rules being harsher now, but I don't have a link to that on hand. I could be wrong there.

As for being dead not being the same as soul loss... No matter how you're resurrected, you lose your Gnosis. With the Numina, you're returned completely devoid of it, and with the Death arcanum, you may or may not, it's unclear.

My reasoning stands as it is, you can argue that as you will.

>specialness

There being some apparent source for souls isn't the same fucking thing as them being able to be created on demand, is it? Just because something's making them doesn't break the limit of "One per person". If you could transcend that limitation and make them en masse, it wouldn't really matter if your soul got eaten; just go down to the soul store and get another. Might be traumatic, sure, but so is getting your arm cut open; we don't consider such an act pleasant but it's hardly an existential horror.

>reductionist/qualia

How is it reductionist? The soul is not a person's essential self in nWoD. If it were, you couldn't mix and match so freely. The capacity to have qualia - to have a subjective experience - is dependent upon there being something to experience that thing. That thing is the essential self. The very concept of a philosophical zombie is predicated on the notion of there BEING an essential self; that no notional conscious function or perception is able to be used to prove the existence of the actual sensation of these things.

If the soul is not any of these things, then it only does what it seems to: Regulate motivation and emotion. Hence, a thyroid gland.

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Y'know, as I was typing all that, I thought of this, and found myself laughing hard.

>>43916034

(Incidentally, yeah, I know it's imperfect, but fuck it, it's funny)

>>43915506
>A soul, if anything, is qualia
Qualia is pretty much the definition of an individual self.

>>43912576
Merit: Bequeath Bacon
The pig can sacrifice itself to any living form that has selflessly helped it to give her an additional supernatural resistance dot.

>>43915848
>Literally your metaphysical humanity and the thing that makes you a person to other people
>"just a thyroid gland"

>>43914644

You sure about that?

http://theonyxpath.com/through-a-diamond-wall-to-december-monday-meeting-notes/

>Our friends at WWPublishing/Paradox will be at a convention in Germany around the 12th of the month and expect to have a bunch of announcements to make that folks will, I think, be pretty excited about. Another excellent talk with them last week, although it was all hush-hush business stuff, which included a commitment to making sure we are all in communication about what is announced and how.

Also almost all the art is in for Mage and Promethean 2e.

>>43916476

Funnily enough, mood swings and mood disorders have been considered signs of demonic possession at various times and places in history. Turns out having the thing that regulates your moods malfunction causes people to deny someone's basic humanity.

>>43916495
That's not news that's the same 'more news is coming!' shit they've been trumpeting for months. Weren't we supposed to get some news at the New Orleans event?

>>43915848
>No, they don't.
They do if you don't at all lose any power. Again, you're not sitting there losing your Gnosis as you die, you're being brought back without it.
>As for being dead not being the same as soul loss... No matter how you're resurrected, you lose your Gnosis.
This is literally the only power I've seen that brings someone back to life that even mentions anything like that.

>How is it reductionist?
I think >>43916476 covers that pretty well.

>>43916034
What? What is that from? Looks like a Vampire book, unless you made the whole thing and stretched it to look like that.

>>43916275
This thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
That's a soulless person.

>>43916476
>The source of your intellect and creativity that can create art or put people on the moon
>a hunk of meat in your skull called a brain

>>43916678

It's pretty clear that the news that was there was supposed to be "White Wolf is back, and we, Paradox, have purchased it." The news just happened to get out way earlier than expected, because the White Wolf website changed hands and people noticed. At this point, it's long enough to where White Wolf is ready to make some announcements: they've officially owned the property for two months now.

>>43916696

For >>43916476 see >>43916707

Seriously, five stars to this Anon.

>vampire book

Yeah, it's from Clan Book Mekhet.

>resurrection

I found where Dave mentioned the Death 5 thing; it's in the Creative Arts spoiler comment section. Specifically, you get resurrected without your soul. No comment on Gnosis specifically. We'd have to actually get his commentary on that.

Sort of irrelevant to me, though, since I've been saying this whole time that I houseruled it to be different, not what the setting said, but c'est la vie.

>Philosophical zombie

You know how the philosophical zombie is positing how there is an essential self to a person, right? One separate from mental function? Y'know... A soul? It is actually a philosophical problem used to posit the existence of a soul as essential self.

>>43916851
>You know how the philosophical zombie is positing how there is an essential self to a person, right? One separate from mental function? Y'know... A soul?
Actually it seems more "what is the soul and does it matter". A P Zombie looks and acts like a regular person, even though they have no soul. What, then, does the soul matter?

>Specifically, you get resurrected without your soul.
For that one spell, not for this Numina.

I also think that >>43916707 might be continuing what the other anon was saying and pointing out how reductionist you were being. After all, the brain IS nothing but three pounds of meat, and yet it still feels like a half-truth at best to say "it's just meat".

>>43916851
>You know how the philosophical zombie is positing how there is an essential self to a person, right? One separate from mental function? Y'know... A soul?
Actually it seems more "what is the soul and does it matter". A P Zombie looks and acts like a regular person, even though they have no soul. What, then, does the soul matter?

>Specifically, you get resurrected without your soul.
For that one spell, not for this Numina.

I also think that >>43916707 might be continuing what the other anon was saying and pointing out how reductionist you were being. After all, the brain IS nothing but three pounds of meat, and yet it still feels like a half-truth at best to say "it's just meat".

>>43916495
>>43916829
Well, we'll learn what's up soon enough. It souns like this might be giving us more information on what exactly "one World of Darkness" means.

>>43916965
>Actually it seems more "what is the soul and does it matter". A P Zombie looks and acts like a regular person, even though they have no soul. What, then, does the soul matter?
Because there is no "them" actually experiencing existence. It's just a construct that does things.

>>43916965

If nothing else, this'll where White Wolf announces all their partners, which should put the "Onyx Path is kill" fears to rest. I'm not expecting a full "Here is the Road Map to the One World of Darkness" but I am expecting some quellings of rumors.

>>43917146
I don't expect stuff to change too terribly much. BNS is 100% pushing forward under the assumed White Wolf subsidiary, and I don't expect OPP to suffer or change at all.

I DO expect the 'One World of Darkness' to be their brand for their non-tabletop and non-LARP lines of business, though

>>43916932

>what is the soul and does it matter

I keep getting beaten to the punch by >>43917041

Seriously, this isn't hard. The P. Zombie problem exists to point out that there is such a thing as qualia. You just acknowledged them. If such a thing is divorced from thought and action, then there must be some other component that is the essential self. You, yourself, said without realizing it that it's the soul; that the soul is the essential self.

>Resurrection

Again, you get resurrected without your soul for this spell, and the effects of this Numina look remarkably like what happens if you take someone's soul away, leave them without it for a while, and give them an unAwakened soul. A known process exists that annihilates Gnosis, a known process exists that prevents its restoration, Occam's razor suggests that these processes are related since this has the fewest assumptions made.

>meat-brain

When someone replies to you sarcastically like that, odds are good they're not agreeing with you. Likewise, your thyroid gland is a major regulator of your emotional state. If I described the thyroid gland as "That most magnificent creation, which gifts our emotions stability and maintains our sanity", and someone else called it simply a gland or emotional regulator, would you accuse them of being reductionist?

>>43917041
>>43917383
Except that in WoD... the Soul isn't the essential Self. It's qualia. It's the "What is it like to be" of a person, as well as a bit of morality.

>the effects of this Numina look remarkably like what happens if you take someone's soul away
No it doesn't. If you take someone's soul away, they slowly become ennervated and vice ridden and eventually they lose all will and capability of resisting commands. That's not what happens here. And, no, that is not how Occam's Razor works.

The "simplest answer" is that this revives someone with their own soul minus special characteristics. As I said, death is treated as "going through the wash".

>>43917383
There's more evidence against the idea of the soul being the qualia of a person in WoD than there is for it, though - first and foremost the fact that souls can be swapped around without moving the person they supposedly "are". There's also the fact that there are plenty of soulless things that are capable of individual experiences - spirits, vampires (possibly - it's hinted at that whatever is consumed during diablerie isn't actually a "soul", or at least not the kind humans have), werewolves, demons...

>>43917575
"the essential self", i.e. "that which experiences existence" IS qualia. Qualia is a term for the essential self. The you that is "you".

And that's pretty clearly not what a soul is, in WoD, because you can swap souls with a person without you suddenly inhabiting their body and their brain.

Just read the Monday Meeting Notes.

The Mage 2e art is still not all in, Paradox has apparently not yet approved the nWOD corebook, Changeling 2e has been in redlines forever, and Hurt Locker and Secrets of the Covenants have similarly been languishing in development and final editing, respectively.

It's extremely frustrating and disappointing, particularly since so many projects will obviously not see a release before the holidays.

>>43917575

>isn't the essential self
>qualia

You can't have qualia without an essential self. Having one without the other is not possible. You even referenced the philosophical zombie problem, an argument which describes an entity in which lack of one is synonymous with lack of the other.

>soul loss

Yes, soul loss has a slow innervation, but restoration with a new soul in the final stages looks the same as revival via this Numina. Death can easily be said to simply speed the process.

And, yes, that's how Occam's razor works: If there are multiple competing explanations that explain all the evidence, the simplest one (i.e. the one that makes the fewest assumptions) is assumed to be the most likely.

Assuming death speeds innervation requires fewer assumptions than a secondary cosmic process which somehow erases the soul's sympathetic connections.

>>43917583

>evidence against qualia

No question. nWoD definitely states that the soul isn't your essential self. To say otherwise has never actually been my point. I stated early on that I recognize this, don't like it, and houserule it otherwise in my games. I've just been arguing with this other Anon for a while now that the notion of the essential self and qualia are synonymous.

>>43917642
How long HAS nWoD 2e core been awaiting approval? It's literally complete - all it needs is the rubber stamp.

>>43917616
>>43917708
The soul is the quality of having an essential self, but that essential self can be swapped. You don't gain someone else's sense of self when you have their soul, but you do gain their ability to have an essential self (and in case of swapping, they gain yours).

In WoD the closest to a True You is the Mind, but that's only because it's the part that thinks. You put Mind Alex and Soul Bailey into Body Carter. You put Mind Bailey and Soul Carter into Body Bailey. You put Mind Carter and Soul Bailey into Body Alex.

Who is Alex and who is Bailey and who is Carter?

>>43917708
>No question. nWoD definitely states that the soul isn't your essential self. To say otherwise has never actually been my point. I stated early on that I recognize this, don't like it, and houserule it otherwise in my games.
I don't houserule it in my games, but I do play a Mage that believes that the soul is his qualia, despite the strong evidence to the contrary - a holdover from his Sleeper life as a Catholic, which is very firmly in the "you are your soul, you have a body and you have a mind" camp.

The Acanthus in the Cabal, who believes that the mind is the self, is horrified by my Mastigos character's practice of regularly reprogramming his own mind to suit the situation, since to the Acanthus he's fundamentally altering his "real self", while to the Mastigos his "real self" remains entirely untouched and is just interfacing with the world differently via his changed mind.

Amusingly enough, both of these viewpoints are probably based on the characters' ignorance of the Arcana dealing with the Mind and the Soul, respectively. I should ask the Moros player in my group what his character thinks.

I have to say, though, I like the idea of "your soul is your humanity - your "self" is more complicated than any one component idea posited here >>43913210 as an alternative explanation of how things work in WoD-as-written. Your soul is a critical PART of what makes you you, without being the whole of what is "you".

>>43917781
>The soul is the quality of having an essential self, but that essential self can be swapped.
Except there are soulless beings in the nWoD who aren't philosophical zombies - they don't have souls, but they do have essential selves.

>>43914644
>No changes. No news.
Signs of Sorcery moved from First Drafts to Redlines, so at least SOMETHING Mage-related is moving through stages.

>>43917781

What you're talking about is the essential-self-as-emergent-property; that your essential self CAN exist, but can only exist as an interaction between Mind, Body, and Soul. That's a fair enough argument to make.

I don't think ability to have an essential self can be swapped under that paradigm, though, since, if essential self is an emergent property, ostensibly changing the components changes the machine, so to speak; the essential self produced by one soul with a given mind and body is not the same produced in the other. In other words, you haven't shifted around Alex, Bailey, and Carter; you've annihilated them and replaced them.

If, however, swapping someone's soul for another maintains continuity of essential self, then it means that their continuity must reside in either their mind or body. I think most people would agree that, if you transferred someone's mind to a new vessel - absent any discussion of soul - it'd be them that comes out the other side, or at least a good copy, whereas a body with a new mind is a different person entirely.

In other words, you either face the point that soul transfer doesn't restore any essential self, or you face the point that you've just shifted the essential self from soul to mind.

>>43917713

It's about three weeks now. Their appearance in Germany on the 12th may be getting in the way of them looking over nWoD 2e.

>>43917846
Oi, you, you still have one of my characters on Ignore. Fix that so I can Note you. Or just get online.

Also, everyone should be horrified by what your Mastigos does.

>>43917871
DO they?

But for real this basically only works for humans. I mean, can a Spirit or Strix be said to have... well, anything? Their mind/body/soul are all one entity. Humans are in this tritary version of Cartesian Dualism.

Can I get any guidance on Gift choices for a starting Irraka/Iron Master? This is a bit of an information overload to look at.

>>43917846

My response would be that any change you make to your mind or body alters your real self. I'm not a dualist in any sense; mind and body are one unit. I wouldn't be horrified by someone just reprogramming themselves temporarily; to be honest, I'd love to be able to do that to, say, make myself hyper-focused on lab work for an hour or two.

... Probably telling my biggest fantasies lately involve being able to be productive and to be able to sleep on time/less.

>>43918149

First question: Which edition?

>>43918283

Second, sorry.

>>43918124
>Also, everyone should be horrified by what your Mastigos does.
>implying he's not the world's nicest Mastigos

So I'm in a mixed campaign, a mage, a werewolf, and a sin-eater. We're in 2 ed, using stop gap for the sin-eater and mage. The mage obviously uses a lot of prep time, and the sin-eater and werewolf seem to have problems figuring out what to do during that time. Note, the sin-eater doesn't have boneyard, despite my begging. Any ideas for what they can do?

>>43918502
In general, whenever the storyteller and then what to do, we get an "I dunno."

>>43918502
Werewolves do an awful lot of setup as well, honestly.

>>43918388
BUT AT WHAT COST?
I mean, I suppose he's only doing it to himself, so whatever.

Seriously, though, I have actual things to talk to you about, and noticing you posting about your fucked up mind-masturbating* Mastigos is really the only way to get your attention.

*Since I guess it isn't really rape if he's doing it to himself.

>>43918186
>mind and body are one unit
But that's explicitly untrue in World of Darkness. Mind, Body, and Soul are all separate "units".

Seriously, though, his Mastigos is basically a self-flagellating sociopath who in an alternate timeline has BBEG potential. While it's better for him and everyone else that he does things to himself that would be insanely unethical if done on someone else, it's still a very... ethical quandary...

>>43918502
What Stopgap Sin-eater rules? Also, I played a Sin-eater without Boneyard. Boneyard is amazing, but boring. You can do quite a bit with other Manifestations. Hell, I did most of my sequence-breaking shit with Marionette.

Pop Phantasmal Marionette. Guy A now has -8 to do anything other than act upon violent hatred for Guy B. And also hates Guy B.

>>43918982

>separate units

Are they now? Can't Life magic affect your glands and cause your mood to change? Can't Mind magic change your mood as well? There's clearly overlap.

Mind and body interact, y'know?

>>43919102
I don't see what that has to do with anything. You're taking "separate" to mean "completely unrelated". Two gears are separate units, even if when placed together they move as one.

The Mind, Body, and Soul can all be swapped out, as in my Alex, Bailey, Carter example.

>>43918311

Eviscerate and Garble are some top choices, to start.

>>43919138

That has the weird point with WoD where a mind transferred to a new body apparently doesn't reshape the brain therein. If it doesn't, then the mind exists sort of disconnected from the body; puppeteering it and overriding biology with magic. That would have odd consequences.

If it doesn't override the brain entirely, then you'd see the personality of the person transferred change dramatically fairly quickly.

>>43919185
It's literally Cartesian Dualism.

>>43919241

Maybe the Pineal Gland is where the WoD soul meets the WoD character body, much like in Cartesian Dualism. Given the esotericism around that particular organ, it'd make sense.

Friend of AmyV's here.

She's in the hospital on a psych hold after a suicide attempt.

Since she's not here to tell me to stop I'll tell you where she went.

Onyx fired her for privately criticizing EX3's art, plus her proximity to the Beast and Exalted leaks. They will never hire her again.

Since then, she's been depressed and I guess it led up to this.

I've never seen her happier than she was when she was trolling you guys, so I thought you should know, even if you don't really care.

>>43919354
lol bitch gets what she deserves

no but seriously is she going to be ok?

>>43919354
Well shit.
I guess that's why she asked about someone using her name about a month and a bit back.
First Catalyst, now Onyx.
That's gotta suck.

>>43919354
I care :<

>than when she was trolling you guys
I now care slightly less. She seemed like a nice person, though, even if I'm bias towards transgender people in positions I'd want to be in.

I didn't know she had anything to do with the Exalted leak, though. Was that because of her carelessness, or just that she happened to be on two projects that leaked? Do you know why she was dropped by Catalyst? Getting dropped from two publishers so close to each other has got to have stung, on top of anything else in her life.

>>43919415
Well duh, of course she was worried about that. After the leak it was obvious.

>>43917713
>implying its going to get approved
>implying the announcement on the 12th isn't that its being redone to accommodate metaplot

>>43919354

Hm. I'm inclined to disbelieve, but her twitter says she's off radar for 72 hours. That's the length of a psychiatric hold in most areas.

That really sucks. I don't really know anything about her but that's a shitty thing for anyone to go through.

>>43919410
It's a good hospital, and her old therapist works there. I hope she's okay.
>>43919415
She quit Catalyst.
>>43919453
She had nothing to do with the Exalted leak, it was just "The leaker posted on 4chan. Amy posted on 4chan..."

>>43919558
She quit? It certainly seemed like she was fired. She was going through the thread answering questions and even asking for title suggestions for the upcoming book, then regretfully informing everyone that she wouldn't be involved with it.

>>43919354

Oh no! I hope she makes a swift recovery, I know what it's like to be in that place, it's bad times.

>Onyx fired her for privately criticizing EX3's art

Wait really? Why would they do that, considering that she's never even worked on an Exalted book to my knowledge. I mean, I figure talking shit about another OPP product while also holding the title of OPP freelancer doesn't look too good, but still.

>>43919633
Now we know why Dave and Chris never say they disagree with any choices other developer's made, at least not ones on current projects (they have no problem complaining about 1e stuff that needs to be fixed)

>>43919629
The technomancer book? That was her baby. She got herself hired to write that book. I never found out why she quit, but she definitely wasn't fired, and it definitely tore her up for a long time.

I hate to say it but all of her friends expected the Onyx thing would lead to this.

>>43919633
I don't know, man. I don't know.

>>43919546
>>43919558

On October 23, Amy's posted on Facebook that she's left Onyx Path, and also indicates that she's a former freelancer for them.

Whether she left OP voluntarily, is experiencing a suicidal episode. or anything else mentioned in the earlier post, is still unknown. However, the 72 hour "off the radar" is certainly not encouraging.

As I had no personal issues with Amy, and generally do not kick people when they're down, I wish her luck.

>>43913016

Occam's razor is just a general tool. Its not a truth and there are many instances in science and fiction, wod fiction even, where it is wrong. Occam's razor also kind of defeats the mysticism of Mage for me.

I just don't like it when people go waving occam's razor around as if it really means anything, especially in contexts where the simplest answer is usually the wrong one.

>>43919633
>>Onyx fired her for privately criticizing EX3's art
I heard that a handful of others got shit on for it as well.

>>43919698

If getting fired as a freelancer for a small role-playing game company leads to clinical depression and a suicide attempt, that person's issues run deep and are quite serious, and would have ultimately manifested regardless of the writing jobs.

I wish her well personally and professionally.

>>43918502
>Any ideas for what they can do?

Have they walked into any bars yet?