Ultra Smurf Hate

Because memes

>>43773551
It's because they are popular

I think it's less that ppl hate Ultramarines and more that ppl hate Matt Ward. Personally I love their Roman theme, and I also love Guilliman cuz he's actually not that strong physically but is overall a good dude and the only Primarch I would wanna be friends with.

Also Invictarus Suzerains in 30k are awesome.

It's just residual Spiritual Liege hate. Prior to Ward, people generally liked the Smurfs. It was the whole "everyone secretly wants to be an Ultramarine, loves Guilliman more than their own Primarchs, and non-Codex compliant Chapters are aberrants destined to be forgotten" thing that soured people on them.

>>43773551
old tired meme
also >>43773999

>>43773777
I like to think of them as being as much Greco-Roman/Hellenic, simply because in being solely Roman, they would be too churlish, in spite of how Patrician they lean.

>>43773999
Not to mention the 5th ED codex.

Everything dripped with Ultramarine stuff it was unhealthy.

Good thing they got back to normal in 6th and 7th Edition.

Success breeds jealousy.

Stay mad ABU.

>>43773551
Ultras are pretty cool.

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>>43773777
>>43773999
Both trip fags know what I was going to say

I like the ultramarines, they get alot of shit but who else has managed to build their own empire?
Also blue is a nice colour and they all look patriarchal af bro

>>43778284
>patriarchal
TRIGGERED

>>43773551
Why would people hate Sicarius and the 2nd company?

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>>43773999
I see the spiritual liege and codex humping as (relatively) recent devolopment amount the ultramarines, the result of the imperium's increasing fanaticism on a previously level headed and open minded chapter.

>>43778593
In my head-canon I also believe Guilliman took pity on the loyalist survivors of the two lost legions and hid them amongst the surf ranks, hence why the rainbow warriors are listed as ultramarine sucessors

SAUL INVICTUS WAS THE BEST CAPTAIN PROVE ME WRONG

LEANDROS WAS RIGHT

POWERFISTS CAN'T MELT SWARMLORD BEAMS

It's mostly due to the fact that GW always tries to make the ultramarines look perfect and flawless in every way

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>>43778571
An extension of regular Ultra hate presumably. The Ultramarines are the Best Chapter Ever, and their 2nd Company is the Best Company Ever, to the point that Sicarius is supposedly held in higher favour than even the First Captain. Which was Ward actually opening the door for potential discord within the upper ranks of the Ultramarines, though I'm not sure if GW have done anything with it.

>>43773551
Because they're basically Vanilla Marines and vanilla is boring.

Part of it is because when you can call a character stuff like "Rowboat girlyman" and "Bob-Billy" you look for every available opportunity.

>>43780192

40kfags must be extra autistic snowflakes then since the level of whining against other vanilla shit like Ryu in Street Fighter or Terrans in Starcraft or humans in WoW (ignoring their PvP racial) isn't nearly as high.

>>43780112
The Damnos novel mentions discord in the senate of Ultramar over who Calgar's successor will be; Sicarius or Agemenan. Though one marine (I think it was a Dreadnought, it's been a couple years) notes that Calgar himself hasn't been present for such debates, and so if he's not worrying about it, then it's nothing for a regular marine to get worked up over either.

So, at least in the Nick Kyme verse, it's present, but it's only something the human ultramarian politicians are worried about; at least for now.

>>43773551

I honestly didn't mind the Ultramarines much even in the Ward heydays.

I loathe them because they were shameless lackeys of the Emperor in destroying Monarchia and dooming the most loyal legion of all into eventually becoming dupes to the Chaos gods. They deserved getting assfucked at Calth, it's just a shame Guiliman didn't join his worthless sons on the pyre.

>>43780527
About half way through your post i started hearing it in eilphas's voice.

>>43780527
>most loyal legion of all
>dupes to the Chaos gods

I'm not even sure who your fanon is leaking into

>>43780527

Guilliman is the only reason the Imperium exists in M41. We would just have xenoshammer 40k and maybe like random scavenger human factions. I know some people would prefer that though.

Literally the only reason. Without Guilliman the marines would have splintered and fucked off to do their own thing, like the primarchs eventually did anyway. The Scouring is irrelevant if Guilliman had not set the foundations and structure for the Imperium to defend itself for 10,000 years.

No Guilliman =

No set guidelines for marine operations.
No consensus among the major legions.
No unification among settled systems.
No High Lords council.
No Ultramar to stop Hive Fleet's major entrance route.
No compliance from the over 50% Ultramarine successors who constitute most of the marines.
No desperate gambit from Horus due to the threat of Guilliman's imminent arrival, bringing along the largest remaining legion alongside Lion and Russ.

A bunch of other shit too I'm sure.

>>43773551
Because of overexposure. Just like you get sick of seeing the same entertainer, actor, etc. or whatever fotm the media is shoving down our throats. GW has done this with Ultramarines. The goodie-two-shoes thing doesnt help either.

>>43780838
>I'm not even sure who your fanon is leaking into

I kind of get where that anon is coming from.

Nobody loved the Emperor more than Lorgar and the Word Bearers, because by their very nature they are extremely emotional beings. They built whole worlds, entire systems to what they saw was divine perfection given flesh, all for the glory of their God-Emperor (and let's be real, if the Emperor isn't a god, he's so damn close the distinction is purely academic anyway).

Their worlds were some of the most loyal and compliant in the galaxy, save perhaps the Realm of Ultramar.

They took their time rebuilding their worlds to be perfect servants of the Emperor, investing in temples, architecture, infrastructure, scholas, and military units, and their subjects were some of the most loyal there was in the Imperium.

Then the Emperor comes along.

He forces their long-time rivals, the Ultramarines, to commence a combat drop into Monarchia, their crown jewel to the glorification of the Emperor.

The Ultramarines evacuate the city by firing bolters into the crowds of people until they run outside of the city limits.

They then nuke Monarchia into complete ash, to the point where not even the foundations of the buildings were left.

Then, the Emperor has the ENTIRE LEGION march out and form up in front of the ruins, where they can see all the devastation of the closest thing to perfect they'd ever created.

The Emperor then forces all of the Legion to kneel by intruding directly into their minds, even able to overpower Lorgar, and forced them to kneel not only to him, but the Ultramarines standing beside him.

The Emperor then tells them that they were doing an absolutely terrible job, and that all of their beliefs were wrong, and they should be more like the Ultramarines.

The Emperor didn't just bitch-slap the Word Bearers, he took a nail-studded baseball bat to their kneecaps, shot their dog, and then left their bodies in a dark alley in a bad part of town.

>>43781797

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. You think the Emperor should have been nicer or more tolerant or whatever.

You make the same mistakes as the people saying the Emperor was a moron or was a bad father.

You don't coddle your subordinates. If a soldier does something wrong, he gets chewed out. That's how war is. That's how the military is. If my top brass god-general tells me not to do something, you can expect me to realize that if I do it anyways, there's going to be huge repercussions.

I'm not saying the HH was good writing, but as someone in the military, sometimes I just look at the mess that is civilian herd mentality and cringe. All those gaudy colors and clothing. Randomly milling about in the most obstructive, noisy, undisciplined mob you can when you're at a popular fast food restaurant during peak hours. In the military, it's cut and dry. You get in formation, you get out of the way, you move with a purpose, etc.

The Emperor was absolutely right in saying the Word Bearers should stop worshipping him, stop being so religious, start being more militaristic, and get more efficient in terms of compliance crusade numbers. Hell, you don't have to be perfect like the Ultramarine worlds. Just get the numbers down like the DA and Luna Wolves. WB couldn't even do that, because they were too busy building golden chapels during a war.

>>43781797
This. When it comes right down to it, the Emperor is mighty shortsighted for an immensely powerful, 40,000 year old psychic being. The irony that the worship of him is turning him into an actual god is the perfect retribution for his massive hubris.

I can see part of a 40k end times being that Lorgar witnesses the Emperor's final apotheosis, and is vindicted, perhaps even redeemed, at long last.

>>43782028
>mighty shortsighted
>massive hubris

Yeah okay like you could've done better. Lorgar wouldn't have been able to do shit if it weren't for Chaos. So the Emperor gets punked by Chaos? He fucking one-shotted their literal avatar of 100% Chaos power.

Massive hubris? You admit he's a fucking god.

>>43781928
It's not a matter of "niceness" or "tolerance". The Emperor was a fool, for he ought to have recognized what power worship would give him. Though, perhaps he might have said that all the Word Bearers should come on the Crusade, and leave the building of chapels to the citizens.

People are much more willing to follow orders when they believe in their leader with the utmost conviction. "He's just one of us" does not suffice, least of all for the Empeor.

>>43782120
>The Emperor was a fool

No, only the writers. You're a moron if you think the Emperor is stupid. No matter how much you want to pin the blame on the Emperor's actions, in the end it was Chaos and the Primarchs themselves who ruined it for humanity.

>>43781928
>or was a bad father.

But he was. He was a really terrible father because he had no clue how to actually be one, as he was a 40-something-thousand-year-old superhuman, and didn't understand that the Primarchs naturally needed some personal attention and some guidance on how to control being a demi-god from the one person who actually understands what it's like to be one. He didn't need to hold their hands, but he also needed to realize that they didn't view him as their Emperor, they viewed him as their father, which is a different world view and will cause them to perceive him in a different way.

>If a soldier does something wrong, he gets chewed out

They weren't soldiers, though. They were demi-gods of war and battle, who had no peer save each other and the Emperor. They were beings who count out-fight or out-think themselves out of any situation, which meant that they never had to listen to anybody else before because 99% of the time they were right. They were also his sons, and were naturally going to have a somewhat distorted view of him because of it.

> If my top brass god-general tells me not to do something

Except he never really did. He pretty much turned a blind eye from it until Monarchia, whereas his other brothers told him he should stop (and if you actually have siblings you know that often only exacerbates the problem). Then he comes out of left field and just totally shatters them.

> and get more efficient in terms of compliance crusade numbers

The counterpoint to this argument is that his worlds were so compliant when he was done with them that they virtually never had any problems, and outperformed most other worlds of equal caliber. Lorgar sought quality of quantity, and even then he wasn't THAT far behind his brothers. The Emperor never directly told him to not do that until Monarchia, even if he did mention that they were falling behind.

>>43782120
> "He's just one of us" does not suffice, least of all for the Empeor.

Exactly, he's not like everyone else. Therefore, he doesn't have to act all buddy buddy with you either. His word is law. The Emperor's only fault was not getting rid of problem primarchs like Lorgar and Angron just like he did the two missing primarchs.

>>43782164
>primarchs aren't soldiers

Soldier and warrior are synonymous, especially during the crusade. If you think the primarchs aren't warriors first and foremost you're an idiot. Every ability they have that's "not warlike" is only to improve their war capability. This is why Lorgar always felt so out of place.

>>43782164
>The counterpoint to this argument is that his worlds were so compliant when he was done with them that they virtually never had any problems, and outperformed most other worlds of equal caliber. Lorgar sought quality of quantity, and even then he wasn't THAT far behind his brothers. The Emperor never directly told him to not do that until Monarchia, even if he did mention that they were falling behind.

And the counterpoint to that is the Ultramarines did it just as well if not better, and far more numerously.

>>43782160
>>43782089
Nigger, if the writers were idiot enough to have the Empeor do what he did, he is, therefore, a fool.

>>43782160
>if you think the Emperor is stupid.

He wasn't stupid. He just didn't understand human mentality because he was human such a long time ago that he was born banging rocks together to start a fire. He refused to recognize that people naturally look for things to put their faith in, and that as the most powerful, immortal Emperor to ever grace humankind, he would naturally be a likely target of it.

His job is the progress of humankind throughout the eons towards salvation. Only the Emperor can do that. He was so focused on that goal, however, that he overlooked a lot of little problems that bit him in the ass later on down the road.

By constantly undermining his credibility by claiming to be "just a human," it shows that he didn't really understand his place.

>>43782180
I hate the emperor got rid of two primarch bit. Gw created them as lost primarch for a reason; because they were lost and there is no record or knowledge of them for a reason any thing else is just writers being fags if they even think to mention the reality of their situation or their legions situation makes me switch off and drop their book.

>>43782222
>a character isn't meant to be stupid but the writer is too dumb to write them intelligently
>therefore, the character is stupid

Nope. They even constantly repeat how he and the primarchs are smarter than everyone. The technological things he did alone are enough to prove it. He could even into the Webway, something even the Necrons and no other race but the vastly intelligent Old Ones could do.

So like I said, you only think the Emperor is dumb because you're a moron.

>>43782240
This is the truth. Should of acreated facts and moved on. Hey the word bearers are only conquering x amounts of planets and doing not exactly how I like it; oh well at least x is small compared to the others records; should of been his response.

>>43782180
>Therefore, he doesn't have to act all buddy buddy with you either. His word is law


>>43782200
>If you think the primarchs aren't warriors first and foremost you're an idiot.

Did you miss the part where I said they were demi-gods of war and battle? They were the ultimate supersoldiers, but they still had almost childlike emotional development (Save Vulkan and Guilliman, who both had positive father figures in their lives before the Emperor came along). The Emperor didn't give them the guidance they needed in order to fulfill their true potential, and the fact that he made such mistakes such as not letting Angron fight alongside his slave-brothers shows that he didn't understand that the primarchs had those needs.

Primarchs aren't human soldiers, anon. They're things bred for nothing but battle with incredible intellects, but also have almost exaggeratedly human faults and traits.

>>43782240
>By constantly undermining his credibility by claiming to be "just a human," it shows that he didn't really understand his place.

Except that's just your reductionist strawman because he obviously wasn't going about it like that, otherwise he wouldn't have projected a blinding golden image with flaming halo.

>>43782375
>they are gods of war
>but they don't fight wars
>primarchs weren't soldiers
>but they were the ultimate supersoldiers

Okay. How about you get your fucking shit together first?

>>43782375

Soldiers are soldiers. "Human soldier" isn't some kind of special archetype. Even the Abrahamic God's legions of angels have similar militaristic traits and those fuckers are rings of eyes rotating around a billion wings.

Why do you think every fucking sci-fi and fantasy genre shares universal characteristics amongst their soldiers?

>>43782439
Not same anon.

I think the point he was trying to get across was that if you don't want an army to go native you don't punish the entire army. You punish members ( and in this case where you are dealing with elite forces that have switched their absolute loyalty to another) you do it subtly eg troop exchanges between legions across the board so it doesn't look like you are playing favourites or singling any one out. Then you take personal command of the commanders that you can't completely trust and reeducate / put down them on a case by case basis.

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>>43773777

The Trips Confirm.

>>43778593
>That difference in texel density

2nd Ed Ultramarines were great.

It's when they became the poster child during the Ward years that the hate began.

>>43782993
2nd edition just directed most chapters to Codex: Ultramarines; the ultramarines were such poster boys they didn't even bother with a neutral codex.

>>43773551
I a SWolf fan, so I look down upon all the other legions/chapters, especially considering the SW were created to fuck other space marines up.

Ultramarines are pretty great in Know no Fear/Betrayer

>>43783495
Keep having a wank of that "fenrisian wolf"

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>>43781797
Meanwhile index astartes says:
>All forms of blasphemy and heresy that threatened the Emperor's realm, all manner of ancient scrolls, books, artworks and icons were burned and smashed before the advancing ranks of the Legion. In their place, vast monuments and cathedrals, all dedicated to the Emperor, were erected upon the mounds of dead of those who had resisted conversion
>Muh innocent most loyal servants

They had legion symbol as burning book, they were specifically genociding and destroying people's cultures while ultras were preserving as much lives as possible and building defences.

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Obligatory reminder of why /tg/ dislikes Ultramarines as Ward remade them.

>>43785898
Somebody post Gandalf's "tg hates and loves them as tg hate and love itself".

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>>43785916

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>>43785939
Thanks.

>>43785898
telion and cronus were new, but aside from that? ward didn't change anything

the butthurt has always been fairly irrational

>>43786024
You basically didn't read the post, did you.

>>43782200
I know this is a few hours late but no, soldier and warrior are not all that synonymous. While not dictionary definitions here there is a distinction:

Soldiers fight alongside others of their kind as a unit; coordinated, disciplined, and inter-reliant.

A warrior is any one who fights in battle, no other aspects are needed.

All soldiers are warriors but not vise versa. Conan is a warrior but no one would call him a soldier.

Guilleman, Dorn, Pertorabo, El Johnson, and Horus were soldiers
Mortarion, Angron, Conrad, Russ, and Khan were warriors

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>>43782240

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>>43788304
Ah my bad, wrong screen

>>43787224
Funnily enough, Betrayer starts with exactly that distinction, saying that the WE were replaced by the SW as the Emperor's executionners, because they were warriors, not soldiers. Too savage, no discipline.

>>43782160
Chaos is a natural force like a storm or an earthquake.

It was here first and it will be there afterwards.

It is, in effect, a part of the environment.

If you stand on a hill in the storm holding a lightning rod you don't blame the storm because your stupid ass got fried.

The Emperor was holding the biggest lightning rod he could find and, unlike others of that era, he fully knew what he was doing and what the likely consequences would be for a regular man. But oh no he was so fucking super he was above consequences and concerns, right guiez?

>>43782164
I like to think that emps did send strongly worded but fair letters telling lorgar to stop but a certain pair of utter slime balls named Erebus and Kor Phaeron destroyed them. that's my headcanon anyway

>>43780457
Fall of Damnos was the first 40k novel I bought once I started to get into 40k.

Pretty guud book.

>>43773551
>After victory against combined forces of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar on Planet 5536 , when asked to comment all the Ultramarine hate, Marneus Calgar, chapermaster of Ultramarines replied simply with "they hate us cause they ain't us"

>>43782240
You realize he was on a time-limit, right? He had a limited time to get humanity set up and ready for the future, since beyond a certain point he had no idea what the fuck would happen.

Imagine you're sitting cozy on a huge Dark Age of Technology Empire that manages to do pretty well for itself, you're relaxed, everything's gonna be okay, then FUCK. It all collapses because the pyskers grew up too fast. Okay, okay, shit, we can still fix this FUCK this warp storm sprouted up so everyone's disconnected and I don't know what's going on.

Then the warp storms recede, he units Earth as quickly as he can, and then FUCK, the galaxy is all a mess. No eldar anymore - more or less - but still a fucking mess. Fuck. And he's only got, what, ten thousand years to fix everything? That's a quarter of the time he started with, with everything gone! Maybe if he gets the old Empire patched up as fast as he can, he can start fixing things again, and...

FUCK WHY AREN'T YOU GETTING THE EMPIRE TOGETHER LET'S GO. I AM NOT LOSING THIS SHIT BECAUSE YOU WANNA BUILD SAND CASTLES. WE CAN BUILD PRETTY THINGS LATER wait what do you mean Horus's tainted by Chaos now?

FUCK.

>>43773999
>people generally liked the Smurfs
No, they didn't, anon.
Remember Codex Ultramarines? Y'know, the original one?
It started there. You just don't know about it because most people started the game with 4e and 5e.

>>43781102
Yeah the books make it pretty clear most of the legions were starting to fall apart because they gotten too large and already adopted chapters the 2nd founding just gave them new names and a paint Job

Even more so as cousin chapters often work together

And of course the fact that the codex clearly made better marines
Aka how else can modern 40k marines fight and often beat 30k vets with choas power ups
Don't lie 30k marines die to shit a 40k marine shrugs off without issue

>>43782028
I never thought of Lorgar's reception. I actually really like this idea. Thanks Anon!

>>43788648
Fuck, autocorrect. Redemption.

>>43788598
I wouldn't say 30k Marines die much easier. On a pure biological point, there has been no evolution.

However, 40k marines are much, much more indoctrinated, and are therefore less likely to be corrupt, and, indeed, in a way, keep on fighting because of mental conditionning.
Hell, Chaplains can make marines do pretty much everything they want thanks to Hypno-endoctrination, like shown in the Megacy of Caliban trilogy, which I thought was a nice addition to the books, because it's overlooked most of the time. They are noemallu shown as good orators that are able to pump up their brothers, but really they are using keywords to turn them on for battle.

>>43788738
>On a pure biological point, there has been no evolution.
Technically correct, but it's worth noting that the biological screening and implantation process is much more thorough in 40k.

The parts are all the same, but they'll be performing to a higher average standard because they're not scooping up any old retard.

What does Lorgar do now? What about the other demon primarchs?

>>43785543
people tend to forget that the word bearers before the fall were basically the Jack Chick legion. Its the curse of ADB. Just look at the Night Lords fandom...

>>43780457
Ultramar Civil War would be one of the few plot advances I would not mind. Not because I hate ultras, but because I want Cato writing De Bello Astra Civica

>>43788759
That's indeed true.

>>43788842
>Jack Chick Legion
What did he mean by that?

>>43788864
>De Bello Astra Civica

Huh?

>>43788878
"Accept the Emperor as your lord and saviour OR ELSE..."

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>>43789606
Ultraroman civil war you know.

>>43783340
>Ultramarines were such poster boys

Which is why Space Wolves got the first Space Marine codex, right?

>>43773777
>>43773999
These. Dem Chaos Trips.

To reiterate, calling the Ultramarines "the best" at anything is stupid as hell considering they're one of the most codex compliant chapters out there. The codex is meant to make chapters generalists rather than specialists.

Any specific mission there will be a better chapter for it.

Not to mention, Roboutte was a dick to my favorite Primarchs and Alphy.

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>>43773551
Frankly I think we should've passed beyond Ward hate as a meme by now. If you ask any of the old grognard Ultramarine players about the old "Ultra Identity" pretty much all you get is "spess rome" and "codex astartes".

The Modern problem with Ultramarines as I see them are:

1. Every non-barbaric origin chapter does some of the "roman aesthetics" now so that's not even unique anymore.

2. Pretty much everyone follows the codex to a small degree now too even if they're a "non-compliant" chapter.

Only thing Ultras have left right now as claims to fame are "muh spiritual liege we da bess" and a good color scheme.

I can understand people liking 30k Ultramarines since they had flaws (slave to chain of command, getting BTFO'd by surprises, and general social naïveté) even if Guilliman got the EZ-Mode homeplanet.

>liking 30k Ultras: alright guys
>liking Modern Ultras: Ultra-Douche

>>43788738
>They are noemallu shown as good orators that are able to pump up their brothers, but really they are using keywords to turn them on for battle.

That's only the Interrogator Chaplains of the Dark Angels. Most Chaplains are just fire and brimstone.

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>>43790302
>To reiterate, calling the Ultramarines "the best" at anything is stupid as hell considering they're one of the most codex compliant chapters out there. The codex is meant to make chapters generalists rather than specialists.

The codex is meant to teach you the best way to win. The Ultras are masters of it and so the best.

>>43791094
Ah damn. That would have made sense for all of them though, with hypno-indoctrination being the norm for every chapter.

Fire and Brimstone?

>>43791125
So you're really saying that the Ultramarines are better at Lightning Attacks than the White Scars? Or better at Guerrilla Warfare than the Raven Guard? Or close combat than the Black Templars? Or being self sufficient than the Carcharodons?

Ok.

>>43791620
Yup. Ultras are are the most skillful warriors of the Astartes.

>>43791620
Charcharodons are not extremely good at being self sufficient though.

They manage, yes, but they don't thrive. There's a reason their ships were in bad shape before arriving in the Badab War, their armors were old, and they had to take recruits from another chapter's pool.

>>43791737
Never said the Carcharodons are great at it. They get by, like you said.

The only reason I added them to the list at all was because the Ultramarines have no reason to be self sufficient whatsoever. They have regular supply lines.

It doesn't make sense for them to be better at something they never do than a Chapter who lives and dies on their ability to be self sufficient.

>>43791811
>the Ultramarines have no reason to be self sufficient whatsoever.

When they need to operate behind enemy lines.
Stop underestimating the codex astartes.

>>43791859
The entire Chapter is never behind enemy lines or cut off from supplies. Maybe a squad or two. At very worst, which I've never heard of, a company.

But that does not compare in any way to an entire Chapter operating beyond Imperial Supply Lines for years if not decades at a time.

>>43791880
>But that does not compare in any way to an entire Chapter operating beyond Imperial Supply Lines for years if not decades at a time.

Yes it does.
The Ultramarines are trained for it.
That's what the codex is for, the ultimate warfare manual.

>>43780112
>>43780457
I do like the idea of discord in the ranks. For Space Marines, the most skilled should be leader, but Ultramarines are very traditionalist ala Rome. They could easily be building to a "Cato is Space Julius Caesar" plotline, but plotlines never happen, so meh

The problem comes from the idea that the Ultramarines are so good that EVERYONE wants to be them and trusts them more than their own captains/primarchs

This is as good a place as any to ask
>Hailing from the planet Talassar, Sicarius was Veteran Sergeant of the Second Company under Captain Severus Agemman, the Captain of the 5th Company and Master Of The Marches by the time Hive Fleet Behemoth arrived to nom on Ultramar.
This is the 1d4chan entry for Cato. Now blah blah unreliable source, but I wasn't aware you could be captain of one company while being sergeant of another. What happens when the 5th and 2nd companies deploy together? Does the 5th have no captain, or does the 2nd lose a sergeant? And what about the captains of all the other companies? Are most of them also sergeants in some other company? And if not, do they outrank Cato on missions where he's acting as a sergeant and they're acting as a captain?

>>43781928
>You think the Emperor should have been nicer or more tolerant or whatever.
He definitely should have, because if he had then he wouldn't have been comatized by own son
Emps fucked up, end of story. And you can say "well it's the other guys' fault blah blah blah" but at the end of the day half his sons fucked the Imperium sideways to the point that it never recovered and never will, and he's the one who made them.

>>43791974
Each company has a captain, you cannot be a sergeant at the same the same time as being a captain.
Sicarius has been both a sergeant and a captain, but not at the same time.

>>43792054
OK then, thanks.
The wording was just so odd to me, I thought it meant he had been both at the same time.

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>>43791811
>the Ultramarines have no reason to be self sufficient whatsoever.

But it's a core tenant of Ultramar.

>>43792153
Self-reliance is different than self sufficiency.

>>43792207
No it's not.

>>43792018
Or those that turned were just ungrateful little shitbags and needed to be executed for not being worth the Genetic engineerig costs alone. Bunch of mindless ingrates.

>>43791694
They're literally worst Dark Angels though anon.

>>43791927
Akshually, lot's of short stories, novella and the likes where Ultras are with other Chapters present them as cocky cunts.
Basically that's their defining flaw, which I find fitting. They are good obviously, but, by thinking they are the best in everything, they end up looking very arrogant in front of others.

Kill Team Talon is quite good with that, making the Ultra basically the 2nd in command, and the jack of all trade. He can do a good job at everything, but most of the time, someone else in the team can do his specialty better. And he always wanrts to lead, but end up being BTFO by the others.

>>43792274
There's being self-reliant (being able to rely on yourself and your abilities) and being self-sufficient (being able to provide basic necessities for yourself).

Technically the difference doesn't really matter, especially in this context where it's talking about the citizens of Ultramar rather than the Ultramarines. And you have a half-dozen successor chapters lying around that'll willingly fill in the blank spots in your chapter roster if you lose a few dudes. They don't need to be self-sufficient because they've set up a safety net.

>>43792153
It's easy to be self sufficient when you have 500 worlds that live to serve the Ultramarines.

>>43792302
How so?
Ultras are number one.
I don't even think the DA are on the rankings.

>>43782951
Rank and seniority comes with its benefits.

>>43792328
>There's being self-reliant (being able to rely on yourself and your abilities) and being self-sufficient (being able to provide basic necessities for yourself).

There is no difference. One cannot rely on one's self if one cannot provide basic necessities.
Similarly if one cannot rely on their own abilities they cannot provide necessities for themselves.

>Technically the difference doesn't really matter, especially in this context where it's talking about the citizens of Ultramar rather than the Ultramarines.

And Ultramarines are citizens of Ultramar, born and raised.

> They don't need to be self-sufficient because they've set up a safety net.

And yet they don't rely on it because self reliance is important to their culture.

>>43792330
It's easy to be self sufficient when you're good?
Yes, thank you.

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>>43792317
>have to become better generalists
>seen as cocky cunts by other chapters
>....

AL infiltration confirmed

>>43792424
No, it's easy to be self sufficient when you have 500 times more worlds when other chapters that do just as well have 1 recruting world and 1 forge world to help them.

Understand: With that much support, UM should curbstomp everything in their path, which is not the case.

They have no merit.

Take that went to a shit school, had average parents who couldn't help him with his homework, etc.
Now take another kid, give him every damn avantage possible.

Both end up in the same social position.
The advantaged kid has much less merit because everything was made so easy for him.

>>43782328

To put this in the terms of another traditional game, that would be the difference between intelligence and wisdom.

>>43792540
That's a fucking good comparison. I'll remember that next time someone hits Empy.

>>43792523
>No, it's easy to be self sufficient when you have 500 times more worlds when other chapters that do just as well have 1 recruting world and 1 forge world to help them.

The Ultramarines Chapter does not have 500 worlds.

>Understand: With that much support, UM should curbstomp everything in their path, which is not the case.

Well, it basically is. In any case, due to strict chapter sizes such an advantage only counts for so much.

>They have no merit.

But actually they have the most.

Instead of your silly child in school analogy just think instead. All Legions had the same starting point, but the Ultramarines used their superior intelligence to make life better for themselves, their descendants and all those who would follow their example while the others just faffed about with their inferior cultures.

>>43792605
They certainly used to, Lorgar and Agnry-Ron may have burnt some of them, and Calth was meant to be a super special world till it got fragged.

>>43792605
And besides, not all legions had the same starting point, Guilliman had to put down a civil revolt, but it was his father who already had an Empire, he just expanded it.

>>43792424
There is a difference, even if one relies on the other.

If you're self-reliant, and you're a mammoth hunter, you can't be sure that you're going to eat tomorrow, but you can rely on yourself to hunt that mammoth to the best of your ability and attempt to get some delicious hairy meat.

If you're self-sufficient, you could be a farmer - you have enough land to grow enough crops for yourself, and you have enough stored you can feed yourself until harvest time. You don't have to worry about where your food is going to come from.

>>43792605
>Same starting point.
>When 2 FULL LEGIONS possibly got added to their numbers

Nope.

And yes they still have around 500 worlds. At worst with war and other shit like that they still have hundreds, which is ridiculous for the results they get.

>>43792753
They split up most of the worlds among their successor chapters.

>>43792661
>They certainly used to

As a Legion they did, yes. But Ultramar of 30k is vastly different from Ultramar of 40k.

>>43792694
>And besides, not all legions had the same starting point, Guilliman

Wouldn't meet his Legion until later.
All Legions originally churned out on Earth.

>>43792753
>>When 2 FULL LEGIONS possibly got added to their numbers

That was supposition from a Word Bearer who were driven insane by Ultramarine envy.

>And yes they still have around 500 worlds.

About eight actually.

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Why do people always flip out about Ultramarines being the best?
You can still like your own Chapter even if the Ultramarines would beat the shit out of them and teach their people how to be good citizens.

>>43792345
You're a dunce.

>>43773551
They aren't allowed to make mistakes, lose, or have interesting character traits.

>>43793253
I think you are if you keep ignoring the abundant evidence that the Ultramarines are the best.

>>43793308
Ultramarines are garbage that can't even keep their homeworlds safe.

>>43793279
>or have interesting character traits.

What?
Ultras easily have the best character traits because they can't rely on gimmicks unlike others.

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>>43793308
>evidence they're the best
>evidence
Nigga, it's outright stated
see
>>43791125

>>43793330
But they have, for thousands of years!
Unlike the Dark Angels.

>>43793349
What character traits? Being bland and TOTALLY THE BEST GUYS isn't a character trait.

>>43793349
you can be as contrary as you want but its objective fact. because ultramarines have to be the generic marines but also be paragons of marinehood so they cant ever be wrong, it makes them boring.

its just like how mickey mouse has to be bland as fuck because hes the face of merch/Disney. meanwhile Donald is awesome because he doesn't have to be.

>>43793308
Ultralkeks are fags and and also there's how girlyman got his throat slit like a lil bitch.

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What I don't understand is why people always seem to claim that Ultramarines are massive Codex-thumpers who never ever deviate from it and do everything exactly as it says on its hallowed pages. IMO Captain Titus was the best depiction of a 'proper' Ultramaine we've had in recent years.

Besides, there's already a massive Codex-thumper chapter and everyone (including the Ultramarines IIRC) think they're pretty retarded for it.

>>43793387
>What character traits? Being bland and TOTALLY THE BEST GUYS isn't a character trait.
>>43793434
>you can be as contrary as you want but its objective fact.

Sicarius is prideful.
Cassius is stubborn and consumed by hatred.
Tigurius is inquisitive and gets on people's nerves.
Telion is a reserved individual who is happy to have found his niche.
Chronus is autistic.

Ultras can be individuals if you take the time to look.

>>43793463
>Ultralkeks are fags

ur a fag

>>43793616
>ur a fag
I have this hunch that you would love Ward's dick in your mouth.

>>43793643
By all accounts Ward seems to be a pretty good guy in reality, so...

>>43793643
I have this hunch you would love everyone's dick in your mouth.

because spiritual liege matt ward

>>43793687
Wow that wasn't clever at all. Isn't it about time you grew up and stopped getting offended by people making fun of your shitty space mans?

>>43793722
>Wow that wasn't clever at all.

You're just jealous it was better than yours.

>>43793747
You have the mentality of a child.

>>43793769
And you of a down's syndrome sufferer.
Isn't life grand?

>>43793806
>I'm going to keep posting until I win.
I bet you have so many friends and make your mum so proud.

>>43793864
>>I'm going to keep posting until I win.

Are you worried you're going to lose?

>>43793928
>I'm going to keep posting until I win.

Jesus Christ guys, of course the Ultramarines are going to say they're the best when they've got the most influence and resources. The Ultras are the only legion who benefited from the Horus Heresy.

If the Space Wolves or Dark Angels had as much political and military influence, they'd be spouting the same crap the Ultramarines do. As individuals, which all marines are, they'll have specialties and skills that set them apart, even within their chapter. As for general tendencies of the chapter, look at Roboute himself, as a primarch, he was brilliant, and an unstoppable force in the battlefield, but so was every primarch. What made Roboute unique was that he was a skilled administrator and understood logistics, and compared to his other brothers, he actually lagged behind in combat.

Tldr: Ultramarines say they're the best because they've got a ton of influence. They aren't actually the best, but they play to their strengths well, so they are often successful.

>>43793965
>Are you worried you're going to lose?

>>43793577
No consequences for Sicarius. Being an arrogant prick worse than Lucius doesn't mean anything if he never has it bite him.

Cassius is written out of the modern lore.

Nope.

Telion's bland mcpersonalityfree.

They're all autists.

>>43794135
>No consequences for Sicarius.

We're talking characters, not plots.

>Cassius is written out of the modern lore.

Not at all. He just recently got a short story.

>Nope.

Yup.

>Telion's bland mcpersonalityfree.

He's an old veteran who turns down personal glory in favour of teaching. He probably has more personality than you,.

>>43794011
>I'm going to keep posting until I win.

>>43794457
>Are you worried you're going to lose?

>>43788370
>It was here first
The war in heaven

But yeah, the rest of your post I mean if the Emperor had managed to get His webway (or, to extend the metaphor a 500 trillion mega-pack of rubber boots) working before Horus fucked everything up it would have been alright

>>43794506
>I'm going to keep posting until I win

>>43788836
Angron: Getting shit done
Magnus: Spends 99% of the time shrieking JUST AS PLANNED whenever anything happens and 1% of the time fucking up space wolves
Mortarion: Brooding; heart surgery
Fulgrim: Paintingdeamonswordorgy
Lorgar: Meditating
Perterabo: JACK SHIT
Konrad Curze: being dead
Horus: being uber-dead
Alpharius: ??????????

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>>43791694
>Yup. Ultras are are the most skillful warriors of the Astartes.
>Being the only chapter that needs a Chapter of replacements for when you fuck up
>Skillful

>>43794915
>Need.

It's outright stated that Ultramarines are best?
Why reject this?

>>43794915

Blood Angels fucked up so hard they had to rebuild their chapter using successors, TWICE.

DA have been fucking up since the heresy and are still "unforgiven".

Salamanders have never gone back to full strength.

I think having some reserves is hardly a detriment, when basically every Ultramarine successor are closet smurfs to begin with anyway.

>>43794935
Alright let me explain something to you the Ultramarines might be good but it doesn't affect shit, because nothing ever sticks.
Take for example Hive Fleet Behemoth, which decimated the Ultramarines, killed the entire first company of the elite warriors. How did this affect them?

In no way what-so-ever, do you ever here stories about how the Ultramarines lost a campaign due to losses from an earlier one?
Never, not once!
That is why they are so awful, not because there lack of character traits, or their being shoved down our throats
At least here >>43795130 the losses of war have an effect on other chapters

>>43795340
>At least here >>43795130 the losses of war have an effect on other chapters

To no greater effect.
Want to know why Hive Fleet Behemoth "didn't affect" the Ultramarines?
Because it happened in the past of the setting, it's not current news.
In the fluff it did matter to them, and it took them many years to recover. It even saw the birth of the Tyrannic War Veterans.

>>43795500

Fuck you I had a model of Saul Invictus don't you tell me it didn't affect anyone.

>>43795500
Which is why the Crimson Fists are bland and personalityless mary sues as well.

Oh, wait, they aren't. They're actually a good chapter to read about.

>>43796307
>They're actually a good chapter to read about.

Hahaha

>>43791974
His black library bio stated he was the company champion of the 4th and later 2nd company

That's the given reason why he hates that space yiffs wannabe

>>43795340
Remember they suffered such losses that thier tyrannic war veternas were parcelled out to the deathwatch to teahc other marines how to be better at thier job.

>>43797195
>get raped by first hive fleet you ever encounter
>it might even be the weakest, earliest hive fleet tendril scout
>lose every single one of your best veterans, to the man
>"gee guys maybe we should add some stuff to the codex about fighting these monsters?"
>50 month debate over whether or not it should be added

Ultramarines.

>>43797486
That's not what it was about.
They of course added tactics.
What was to be decided was whether they should change the structure of the Chapter by accepting the Tyrannic War Veterans as an official separate body within the Chapter.

>>43797796
This.

I'm all for not saying that Ultras are the best in everything. But honestly is still primordial. Otherwise it's just shitposting.

>>43797486
>it might even be the weakest, earliest hive fleet tendril scout
Wait hol' up there, Behemoth was so dangerous because it moved as one big sledgehammer. Later tendrils are much less densely packed.

>>43793643

It really should be propagated that Ward likely doesn't give a shit about UM.

>>43799540
He's a necron fag. Which is why he wrote that not only did Sicarius lose one time, but that loss was to Necrons

Ultras aren't the greatest at everything. The codex isn't the greatest treaty on warfare ever.

Yours
The alpha legion
Catch me if you can bitches

>>43799692
>Ultras aren't the greatest at everything
True, the Alpha Legionnis far superior at getting shat on by idiotic retcons

>>43799692
>Alpha Legion
>the legion so bad at warfare it can only wage subterfuge instead of war

>>43799894
To be fair, a network of superhuman big bosses would be a useful asset. Just the Alpha Legion had a complex.

>>43799894
Let's see wars in which the guerrilla has beaten the conventional military:
Vietnam (was a conflict same diff)
Iraq
Syria
Afghanistan
Half of africa

Say what you want shit is effective

>>43800878
>Vietnam (was a conflict same diff)

US won Vietnam. The general admitted they were about to surrender. US only pulled out due to hippies.

>the rest of those

Are you serious? Iraq and Afghanistan, especially? Lol.

>>43799894
>The Legion that makes a point of being better Space Marines than the opposition
>That wrecked entire chapters with a handful of Marines by playing the long game.

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>>43788738
So 30K Marines were more numerous and better supported, with possibly an edge in tech, but 40K Marines are better trained, led, organized and have a harder fighting edge?

I can see that.

>>43800891
The saga continues though. Khorne is pleased and the military just keeps spending how else do you think we are going to pay for all the shiny toys?

>>43803426
I would imagine that 30k definitely has an edge tech wise and definitely better supported. Celestial Lions would have never happened when the Legions were in force.

>>43773551
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM8YGsAmeqE

>>43800878
>Say what you want shit is effective
At what, turning nations into bombed out shitholes?

>>43800878
Yes very good at making people so bored of fighting they leave until they do something stupid and we have to go back and kick in their shit again.

>>43803750

Is money spending Tzeentch or Slaanesh?

>>43773551
The way I see it is that it's reactionary - people don't like the faction we're "supposed" to like in our faces all the time, and how amazing they are at everything - the fact that they're largely flawless vanilla doesn't really help them too much

>>43781928
>The Emperor was absolutely right in saying the Word Bearers should stop worshipping him, stop being so religious, start being more militaristic, and get more efficient in terms of compliance crusade numbers.

Eh. While that may have been correct in the context of founding the Imperium, the entire structure of the Imperium as the Emperor envisaged it was flawed down to its bones.

Much of what he did was guided by hubris. There were better, more advanced human societies out there that the Emperor basically hated for not being his vision and not being ruled by him. There were aliens that had maintained their old alliances with humanity, that the Emperor put to the sword anyway because they weren't human. His glorious empire, even when he was alive, was pretty shitty for the average human, and actively fed Chaos - and continues to feed Chaos - by making the Ruinous Powers an attractive alternative to the soul-grinding suffering that is everyday Imperial life.

His actions were wrong on a fundamental level. His entire plan was wrong, and his involvement in the galaxy ultimately did more harm than good.

>>43800891
The US pulled out due to Vietnam becoming a publicly unpopular black hole for money and American lives. And due to it being an ill-conceived war that had no point in the first place.

Even if the Vietminh were on the verge of surrender - and that's pretty damn debatable, considering the number of conflicting sources - it doesn't matter. Their willingness to keep biting outlasted America's interest. They managed to hang on until it was no longer profitable for the US to remain in Vietnam. They won.

>>43804615
It's not just that they appear flawless, it's written canonically that they are better than everybody else, and that sucks dirty ork balls.

Just have them on a level playing field with eveyrone else, and just being good at logistics and planning, which makes for a damn good military backbone anyway.

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>>43773551
Because their logo is a toilet seat.
Joking aside, they are the poster boys of the spehss mahreens hence they draw flak for stealing the spotlight (everybody knows the smurfs but Raven guard are less known). Also Matt Ward as everyone said. Personally I like them but I prefer the Iron Hands and Raven Guard.

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>>43804827
That comic also implies that smurfs are secretly eldar lovers.

>>43804979
>flying in a private spacewar jet with a jovial Space Marine steward who's not afraid to break out the good stuff
I don't know why they're complaining. that sounds like the tightest shit.

>>43782160
>No, only the writers.

Which by extension makes Emps a dipshit too genius. Characters are only as smart as the people writing them.

>>43773551

Ultras are vanilla as you get and simultaneously the most honoured chapter and that's why get in people's past.

>>43790869

Case in point. Ultras aren't supposed to stand out or be special snowflakes. It's what's great about them, but also what makes people hate them. Snowflake chapters get all flustered about non-codex compliant chapters being deemed 'aberrants', because they missed the point of faceless supersoldiers with dogmatic loyalty to a a fascist regime not exactly being about individuality.

>>43791125

>People mad because Ultras are canonically da bes

When I grow up I want to be ULTRA.

>>43799692

>Guilliman didn't punch our Primarch's shit in
>T-that wasn't him

>>43799692
>The codex isn't the greatest treaty on warfare ever.
It is, actually.
However, war is constantly changing and shifting, and that is why the Codex Astartes is still being expanded upon even in current times to acclimate to new foes.

>>43805044
other space marines are basically hard-wired to hate people who are happy and successful

>>43805928
So Robby's Pod is actually the Codex editing room and he's been so busy everyone thinks he's dead?

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>>43799692
Well Robot Gorillaman himself said it was a guideline and muhreens should still think outside the box and innovate. But like the Iron hands the Smurfs forgot what their Primarch said and follow it religiously.

>>43810436
poor iron hands primarch.

that said I like the iron hands just feel sorry that there primarch had to be ignored for them to happen

>>43810436
Aren't most Ultramarines supposed to be like Captain Titus? I'm pretty sure the Red Scorpions are the Codex-thumping madmen, not the Ultramarines.

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>>43773551
They're Mary Sue as hell but recently there better

>>43810880
There is also Hammers of Dorn who hates Ultras for not adhering Codex enough which is derp like all 40k.

>>43810935
Sicarius is secretly gyrinx in power armor, that makes sense.

>>43773551
they're boring

>>43778571
I love ultramarines I have always loved ultramarines but I still hate Sicarius for the arrogant little fucker that he is this is why I like McNeills portrayal of him as such.

people hate the ultramarines because most of the characteristics anyone knows about them is merely being "the best". All of the unique aspects such as the Roman style is overshadowed by that.

Being "the best" is not only a boring character trait, but also sort of a "fuck you" to the fans of other chapters. The fun part of 40k is how vague and gray it is, and claiming 1 out of a million is "arguably the greatest" takes away from that.

Sure many people say something like "The space marines are only the best at strategy" but that is such a huge part of an army, it is almost the same thing.